Latest / Pod Save America / “That new Biden smell.” (with Sen. Bernie Sanders!)

Transcript

“That new Biden smell.” (with Sen. Bernie Sanders!) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Joe Biden's approval takes a hit among
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: some Democrats. Law professor Melissa Murray is back to talk
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: about whether the Supreme Court is as right-wing as we thought.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: And Senator Bernie Sanders is here to talk to Tommy
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: about the latest negotiations in Congress over voting rights, infrastructure,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: and more. Before that, some news. The first episode of
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Edith is out. We partnered with our friends at QCode
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: to produce a new scripted comedy starring Rosamund Pike that
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: explores the untold, true-ish story of America's secret first female president,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Edith Wilson, the first lady to Woodrow Wilson. New episodes
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: of Edith are released every Thursday. Follow on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Exciting, guys. Everybody check
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: out Edith.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: It's very good.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: You will like it.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Subscribe to it right now.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I laughed hard on the way. to the office in
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the morning where we don't have any AC guys. So I'm,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I'm living in a, uh, our climate.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Away from that office then. Yeah.
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Yep. Okay. There.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: No, thank you. Um, also this week, love it or
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: leave it presents out of the closets into the streets,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: a live pride extravaganza filled with games, comedy sets, and
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: of course, gay news. Love it. Tell us all about it.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: We have an incredible lineup. Uh, it is on Thursday
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: at four o'clock Pacific, seven o'clock Eastern. You can watch
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: it live. It'll also be love it or leave it
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: that Saturday. But we're really excited about it. We have
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: an incredible lineup of guests and we're raising money for
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: the Trans Justice Funding Project, which puts money into local
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: organizations across the country fighting for trans people, led by
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: trans people. So we're very, it's just very excited about
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: this event. We have, the lineup will be announced soon.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: It is amazing. So check it out.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the news. Joe Biden comes
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: home from Europe this week to a Republican party that's
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: trying to kill most of his legislative agenda and a
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: small gang of moderate Democrats who either can't see that
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: or won't stop it. And now there's new evidence that
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Washington's bipartisan clusterfuck is starting to take a toll on
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: everyone involved. After about five months of the president enjoying
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: an incredibly steady average approval rating of between 53 and
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: 54 percent, 538.com has Biden's average approval at 51.8 percent,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: a tick down, but still the lowest of his presidency.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: The new Monmouth poll shows came out last week, has
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Biden's approval at 48%, a six-point decrease from April, but
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: a fall that's being driven largely by Democrats, the percentage
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: of whom who said the country is on the wrong
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: track also rose by 20 points to nearly one in three.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: For Congress, it's even worse, just 32% of Democrats approved,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: down from 63% in April. I should say that the
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: approval ratings for Biden in Congress have taken a hit
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: with independents as well. Lovett, what do you think is
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: causing this slight but real dip?
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's, you know, we're losing that
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: new Biden smell a little bit. But I mean, there's
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: a moment, look, there's a moment when- What.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Does that, can you describe what that smells like?
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: That's not, that's not.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: No, but there is a moment where like, where your
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: new car becomes your car. And it's like the first
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: time you grind the hubcaps against a curb, you know,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: or like you ding this or like when it's just
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: now it's just your car. One thing I think is interesting,
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: it's like, One of the reasons Biden's approval rating has
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: been so steady is actually that he didn't get the
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: kind of honeymoon with Republicans that normal presidents have gotten
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: in the past. Even Barack Obama got just a decade ago.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: And I think the result of that is actually we'd
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: be having a different conversation about President Biden's approval rating,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: like kind of like coming down to earth. But for
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: the fact that, you know, misinformation and propaganda means that
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: his numbers paid like a tax from the beginning and
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: actually a A bunch of Republicans have kind of ticked
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: up their support because he's not the monster, the incoherent, wandering,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: demented monster that he was painted to be, controlled by
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: like a marionette by Vice President Kamala Harris. And that said,
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: I think going from weeks of Joe Biden's on a roll,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: he's addressing the pandemic and passing big bills to headlines like,
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: is Joe Biden's agenda stalled for good? Don't help, you know,
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: your approval rating amongst the people who supported you.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Well, Tommy, the same poll shows that Biden's policies are
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: still as popular as ever. 60% support the American Rescue Plan,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: 68% support the American Jobs Plan, and 61% support the
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: American Families Plan. What do you make of the gap
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: between Biden's popularity now and the popularity of his plan?
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, isn't it true that everyone hates the kid
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: who just got back from their year abroad in Europe
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: and like pronounces Barcelona with the TH and like that
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: could be part of it. I mean, I think there's
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: a few pieces of this, right?
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Won't stop talking about all his new friends that he made. Yeah,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: we get it.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, you love prosciutto? Okay, way to literally go crazy
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: with your palate. I mean, there's a couple of pieces
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: of this, right? Like you said, the Biden approval dropped,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: congressional approval dropped, and then the right track, wrong track
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: numbers dropped. also dropped. So to me, that suggests frustration
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: among Democrats based on feeling like, oh, maybe this is,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: you know, the agenda's bogged down in Congress, like some
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: of the headlines Lovett talked about. And then I think
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: there's other concerns that are like, you know, concerns about
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: inflation that I think are making people feel a little
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: more anxious about the economy, a little more anxious about
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: how we're going to exit this COVID period. And it's
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: just something to keep an eye on. I mean, in
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: terms of that gap, I think a lot of it,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: like Lovett was saying, the gap, a don't just dislike
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden, they intensely dislike him. I think six out
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: of 10 Republican voters have a strong disapproval of Biden.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's not Joe Biden's fault, right? That tells
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: you a lot about the damage that was done by
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: months and months and months of lies that claimed Joe
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Biden sold the election. And so ultimately, it's easier for
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: a voter to like an idea from a politician they
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: don't like. There were some Trump ideas I liked, but
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: in this case, it's some vanilla stuff like roads and
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: bridges and But again, you also probably are seeing some
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: of a delta here because there is high approval from
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Democrats for the policy ideas and then maybe a little
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: bit of frustration about the effort to pass it or
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: what they perceive as a lack of effort to pass it.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So that's the way I would square that circle.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's it. Shit's not getting done. I mean,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: we had the beginning of the term. He passes the
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: American Rescue Plan. He's the next FDR, right? We're already
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: putting him on Mount Rushmore. We're talking about this transformative presidency,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: which was probably a bit of an over-exaggeration, just a bit,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: because the media tends to do that sometimes. And now,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: like Levitt said, you're seeing all these headlines about a
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: stalled agenda. And if you're someone who thinks the plans
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: are great, but don't see them getting passed. And all
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: you hear every fucking week is Joe Manchin says no
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: and stalled in Congress. And this and that, like you're
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: going to get frustrated and you're going to, you know,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, love it. Do you think Democrats are right
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: to feel disappointed and frustrated so far?
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, of course.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: I don't where they direct that I think is, is
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: more at issue. I don't, I think even like all,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: but the most committed, uh, Watchers of politics are not
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: as familiar with like, the vagaries of the Senate, the filibuster,
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: the fact that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are putting
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: up hurdles that like, why is there a bipartisan infrastructure
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: bill versus the better bill? What is the status of that?
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: I think that all ends up sounding a bit like
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: noise and nothing changing. So I think like that frustration
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: is valid. I think the question is, is it right
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: to point it at Joe Biden? I think like, of course,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: in part, I think not. And I think, is it
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: right to point that entirely at Joe Biden?
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Of course not.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: Is there a criticism? Is it worth exploring like the
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: criticism mounted sometimes by the left of like Joe Biden's
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: strategy to get some of these things done? Like, of course,
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: that's what we talk about. That's what we should be
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: talking about. But overall, being frustrated at the fact that
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: like we can't get some of these big items through
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: a Democratic Senate with a Democratic House and a Democratic presidency.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's really fucking frustrating.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what can Joe Biden actually do here? Like, what
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: would you suggest if you were in the White House?
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, a couple things. So like, there's some tactical stuff.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I did notice that the Democratic Party has been running
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of paid digital ads about these bills, about
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: some of his accomplishments. I think I saw that in
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: the last couple months, the DSCC has spent like $ 1. 7
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: million on Google ads and Facebook ads to promote the
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: American jobs plan. So I think that's good and important
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: because as Levitt said, I'm sure there's a lot of
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Democratic voters who are listening to Pod Save America and
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: watching MSNBC and pissed off about the filibuster and blah, blah, blah.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Then there's just like most of the country that is
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: going outside for the first time and going to the
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: movies and not wearing a mask and just like living
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: their lives. And I think the way you're going to
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: reach a lot of those people who are just not
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: paying as much attention is through paid ads. I hope
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: that the Biden team will end up pushing Manchin and
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: others a little harder behind the scenes to acknowledge some
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: of the urgency we're seeing, especially around issues like voting rights.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: I hope they also find some wedge issues that we
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: can talk about that makes the debate more uncomfortable for Republicans.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: And it's not somehow just about Biden. I'm guessing Biden
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to dig into this hard or go after
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Republicans hard right now and give McConnell or others a
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: pretext for blowing up bipartisan talks. But the fact that
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Republicans refuse to raise taxes on rich people or corporations,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: but want to raise the gas tax on every person
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: in the country seems like a political gift to me.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: And I would like to hear more ways that they
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: are going to elevate that contrast and drive it home
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: in the homestretch. So there's a few things there.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: I think that's all right. I wonder how much of
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: the mansion pushing should happen behind the scenes and how
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: much should start happening a little bit more publicly. And
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: I know you have to be careful of this because
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: every time you say anything about Joe Manchin, if Joe
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Biden even says the words Joe Manchin, it's treated in
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the press as a jab. Tommy loves that especially.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Jabs.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Look, we were this is a tough one, right? We
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: were all in the White House when the narrative about
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Obama was Obama must lead. Why won't Obama lead? And like,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: you know, Dan and I talked about Green Lantern theory.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And there's this idea that the president can like magically
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: bend the entire city of Washington to his will. But
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I do wonder, like. how much, I kind of think
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: that Joe Biden so far has been like a manager
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: and he needs to be more like a fighter, right?
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Like they talk about him, like he's managing the pandemic well,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: he's managing the economy well, he's getting us back. And
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: I think a little more fight on behalf of the
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: middle class, like you're saying too, Tommy, by saying like,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: we need to tax the wealthy, we need to help
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: fight for inequality, we need to help fight for people
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: in this country, right? Like a little more fighting spirit,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: a little less managing through public remarks. I don't know
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: that that's going to change Joe Manchin's mind. I think
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: we should be very clear on that. But I think
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: you might as well try to fight because at the
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: end of the day, you're going to own the success
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: or failure, despite whether it's Joe Manchin's fault or not.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the reality is like this
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: is a like the exact place on the dial of
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden's approval rating in June of 2021 is like incidental.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Like we are talking about passing a trillion dollar infrastructure package.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: There is talk of potentially following that with a much
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: bigger partisan kind of bill that does a bunch of
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: different pieces of the infrastructure plan of the family plan.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: And I think if we are talking about like what
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden has to do to be a successful president,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: like the message takes a backseat to whether or not
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: he succeeds in passing those two things.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Like that is the, that is the question.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: And I don't feel like we like, no, no, no
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: message can fix if the, if the, if the, either
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the bipartisan infrastructure deal or the larger reconciliation bill don't
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: pass or for the people that doesn't pass, no messaging
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: is going to fix that.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: No.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: And like Joe Biden, Joe Biden is an incredibly consistent messenger.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: His approval rating was higher when he was showing incredible
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: contrast to the failed pandemic management that came before him
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: and passing a giant piece of legislation. you know, like that,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: that really helps. That is his message. So anything like,
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: and so basically like a lot of this comes down
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: to what will move Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema and
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: a few other moderates to making that agenda pass. And like,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: we just honestly, I think sometimes we don't fully understand
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: the conversations that are taken behind the scenes, like what
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: the tenor is, what the, what the actual, the actual
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: posture is. Yeah.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, with these numbers, I think like for the reelect, like,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: do I think that a bunch of Democrats are going
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: to decide they're so disappointed that they voted for Donald
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Trump again or Tom Cotton, whoever they put up?
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: No.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: But I do think this kind of reduced enthusiasm is
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: something that we should be mindful of and concerned about
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: as we go into the midterms, which are usually entirely
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: about getting your base out. I do think, look, I
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: fundamentally agree with their theory of the case that we
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: got to do a good job. We got to get
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: the pandemic behind us. We got to fix the economy.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: But I think we have also seen some warnings about
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: thinking that's a panacea, like economic indicators are are increasingly partisan.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Trump's president, Republicans are psyched about the economy, Democrats president,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: they're bummed out, right? It's increasingly difficult to reach voters,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: to tell them what you actually did. Fox News watchers
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: are only going to hear about like critical race theory
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: or the cultural grievance of the day. Sporadic voters aren't
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: going to read the news at all, or they're going
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: to read Facebook. And then lastly, like the thing that
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: would really concern me the most is that the best economy,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: the best economic ratings in the world are going to
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: struggle to overcome a super gerrymandered map Or harsh voter
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: suppression laws, or worse yet, a state legislature that just
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: decides they're going to change the results of an election
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: they don't like. So that's why this push on voting
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: rights is maybe the most important thing he does, because
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: that is just looming in the background. It's something that
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: should freak all of us out.
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, if I was in the
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: in the White House advising him, like, I think he
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: should be out there even more on voting rights.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Like Schumer is going to put it put up the
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: For the People Act, either the Joe Manchin version or
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: the original version or both. Tuesday. And like Joe Biden
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: should be out there and he should be fighting for
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: this bill and he should be fighting for this compromise.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: You know, there's reports that the White House is going
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: to embrace the Manchin compromise. That's fine. Look, if you've
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: got all 50 Senate Democrats and most of the House
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: on board with this Manchin compromise and Joe Biden is
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: supportive to then go go out there and fight for
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that and fight for it hard. And it might not
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: it still might not make a difference. You might not
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: convince these Democrats to break the filibuster like Manchin and Sinema.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: but you got to go down swinging on this one.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I agree, Tommy. Look, and look, there are some economic
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: indicators that are still mixed, right? So the Biden people
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: would say probably it's too early, right? Like we're going to,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: it's going to take some time for the economy to
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: get back to full strength. It's going to take some
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: time still for more people to get vaccinated for the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: pandemic to fully go away. Once that happens though, people
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: will feel the results of that and they will support
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden based on that feelings. But I agree with you, Tommy,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: that I, Because we are in such a polarized environment,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I do not know if simply improving people's lives and
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: having them feel that improvement is enough to get Democrats
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: over the finish line.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: One other thing, though, that I feel like the Biden
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: team has been really good about, especially on economic indicators generally,
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: is just like, hey, this summer is going to be
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: really fucking weird, all right? And everybody just needs to
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: chill out. Inflation, job numbers, the consumer population, you know
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: consumer behavior like we're all oh we're all fucked up
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: we're all behaving in a new way like coming out
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: of a pandemic for the first time in 100 years
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: and like some of this is like i imagine going
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: to be reflected in just polling that we're not going
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: to be able to totally trust or understand for a
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: little bit of time like we gotta yeah we're not
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: there's an odd moment there's a lot there's a lot
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: of noise.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Also god knows what we're going to be talking about
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: as we go into the midterms or the real act
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: it could be the economy it could be china it
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: could be terrorism it could be like critical race theory
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: for pets. Like who the fuck knows what, what Fox
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: news is going to drive and force us to talk
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: about for the next couple of years. So, you know,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: There's that, uh, there's that article in the New Yorker
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: that I think about every once in a while about
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Seattle falling into the ocean.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: I just, I'm reminded of once in a while, you know,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: it's out there.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I couldn't read it, but that, but that's why, like, if,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: if you're the Biden folks, if you're Democrats, you want
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: to be going into these midterms with voters looking at
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Biden and looking at Democrats and saying, these are the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: people who are fighting for me. And the Republicans are not.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: It's not just like, we're going to give you marks
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: on how you handled the pandemic and the economy. There's
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: going to be all these fights. And I want these
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: people on my side because I think they're on my side.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And so you have to show that. And you have
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: to show that through your messaging and also what you
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: actually get done.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: The Supreme Court still has 12 opinions left to issue
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: in this term, but already some of its rulings and
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: unexpected coalitions have sparked a debate about just how conservative
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: the newest justices are, including last week's 7-2 decision to
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: uphold the Affordable Care Act for the third time. Joining
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: us to make sense of all this is NYU professor
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: of law and co-host of the Strict Scrutiny podcast, Melissa Murray. Melissa,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: welcome back to the pod.
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me back.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Let's start with California versus Texas, where the court said
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that a group of Republican states did not have the
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: standing to challenge the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: an opinion that was written by Justice Breyer and joined
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: not only by the liberal justices, but by Justices Roberts, Thomas, Kavanaugh,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: and Barrett. Melissa, why do you think these conservative justices
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: signed on? And what, if anything, can this ruling tell
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: us about how the court views the ACA?
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: Well, to be clear, this was a ruling on procedural
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: grounds that the litigants did not have standing to bring
• 18:03
  Speaker 6: these claims. So technically, the court did not get into
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: the merits of this case at all. So it's not
• 18:08
  Speaker 6: as though the conservative justices. who signed on to, quote unquote,
• 18:12
  Speaker 6: save the ACA, were signing on or endorsing the idea
• 18:17
  Speaker 6: of federally subsidized health care in any way. So, you know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: this whole idea that the ACA has been saved by
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: this opinion and by these conservative justices, I think, is
• 18:27
  Speaker 6: a little misstated. It is a narrow procedural decision about
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: who may enter federal court and present what kinds of And,
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: you know, it is the kind of decision I think
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: that the court often deploys using these procedural grounds in
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: order to avoid a thornier or more controversial issue. So
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: just think back to 2013 when we had the first
• 18:48
  Speaker 6: marriage equality case. Perry versus Hollingsworth that came before the court,
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: that was also dismissed on standing grounds in part because
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: I think the court was not ready in 2013 to
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: take up the broader question of whether the right to
• 19:01
  Speaker 6: marry included a right to marry the person of the
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: same sex. And so we punted there, the court punted there.
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: And then two years later, we got the decision in
• 19:10
  Speaker 6: Obergefell versus Hodges where apparently they were ready.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Justice Alito issued a fairly catty dissent Where he sarcastically
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: referred to this case as the third in an epic
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: trilogy and said no one can fail to be impressed
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: by the length to which this court has been willing
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to go to defend the ACA against all threats. What
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: do you think that was all about?
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: I think you're right. It was a bowl of milk
• 19:34
  Speaker 6: for table two. It was very catty. And I think
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: the cattiness or the snarkiness was really directed at the
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: chief justice who, you know, in very famously in 2012
• 19:45
  Speaker 6: voted with the liberals to uphold the ACA in the
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: first instance and then later the majority white. but the
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: Chief Justice was again in the majority to uphold the
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: ACA once again in King v.
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: Burwell.
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: Justice Alito's dissent here was notable in that the decision
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: written by Justice Breyer was a relatively spare and efficient
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: 16 pages, and Justice Alito's dissent is twice that. And
• 20:10
  Speaker 6: he is really all in his feelings about this. He's
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: very exercised. The more notable thing, though, I mean, I
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: think Justice Alito being very perplexed and perturbed about this
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: is not surprising.
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think anyone could have predicted that.
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: I think what is less predictable is that he got
• 20:27
  Speaker 6: Justice Gorsuch to join him on this dissent. And it
• 20:31
  Speaker 6: is a dissent that... is sort of broadly thinking about
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: the purposes of the ACA, what Congress was doing when
• 20:39
  Speaker 6: it zeroed out the individual mandate penalty, all of these
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: things that really sort of focus on what was Congress
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: thinking at the time they did certain things. And Neil
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: Gorsuch is not the guy who cares about what Congress
• 20:51
  Speaker 6: is trying to do at any particular moment. He's the
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: guy who cares about What did Congress write on the page?
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: And what can someone reading the words that Congress wrote,
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: what do they mean? He is a committed textualist. But
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: this is a dissent that is really more about Congress's purposes,
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: Congress's motivations, not about what did Congress write.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's alarming.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Love it.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Reporters were asking Democrats last week whether they regret arguing
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: last fall that Justice Barrett would overturn the Affordable Care
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Act if given the chance. Would you like to issue
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: an apology? Obviously not.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: I rarely issue apologies when they're earned. But look, I'm
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: not a lawyer or an expert. I have a great
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: LSAT score. I'd like Melissa to know that. But it
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: seems to me that a lot of this is treating
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Amy Coney Barrett and actually the court generally as a
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: magic nine ball, I guess. And that, but like, tell
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: me if I'm wrong, but like, she was very explicit
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: about her ideology.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: She said, she's a radical.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: She's a radical in her reading of the constitution, but
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: in her writings and in what she said in her hearings,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: she talked about the ways in which she avoids applying that.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: And in this case, they didn't rule on the Affordable
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Care Act. For all we know, and I think we
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: would all bet, I don't know what Melissa would say
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: about this, but we'd bet that she does believe the
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional, but she didn't have to
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: rule on that because it didn't get that far because
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: they threw it out on standing. which is just about
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: the right to bring the suit in the first place.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: So I'm just going to reach over here and science
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: point to yes.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: I think that's right.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Melissa does have a magic eight ball for those of
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: you listening at home.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: What'd you think of magic nine ball?
• 22:27
  Speaker 6: I got where you were. I was perplexed at first,
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: but then I got where you were going with it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: I like that.
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: So I think We all need to be mindful of
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: the context in which this occurred. I mean, we were
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: discussing whether or not the Supreme Court would strike down
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: the health care statute in the middle of what is
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: the most pronounced global health crisis that we have seen
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: in our lifetime. And I think Any legal realist would
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: say that most people on the court, even the committed conservatives,
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: would worry about what that looked like, would worry about
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: what it would mean for the court going forward were
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: they to do that. And so I think it's entirely
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: not surprising that the court would find this procedural way
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: to avoid that broader question of whether or not the
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: ACA or the individual mandate continues to be constitutional or unconstitutional.
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: by dealing with it in this very narrow jurisdictional way.
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: I don't think that means that Amy Coney Barrett is
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: now in favor of the Affordable Care Act. I don't
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: think it makes her a progressive. I don't think it
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: means much of anything at all, except that some majority
• 23:32
  Speaker 6: of the court was unwilling to take up that bigger question.
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: And this procedural out, and I think often these procedural
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: decisions are outs, was a way to avoid that more
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: thorny question.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: Love it.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: You have some questions on Fulton.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so one of the big cases was Fulton v.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Pennsylvania.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: The Supreme Court ruled that the city violated- City of Philadelphia.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: City of Philadelphia.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: What did I say?
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: Pennsylvania.
• 23:54
  Speaker 7: Oh, sorry.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: It's not the city.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: I'm starting again.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: It's a podcast.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: We can edit.
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: Tell me more about your LSAT score.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: We've had it.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Sorry. Now you're screwing me.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: Now you're making good content.
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: Just joking. Just joking.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: The other big case was Fulton versus City of Pennsylvania.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: The Supreme Court ruled that the city violated the First
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: Amendment when it denied a Catholic foster care agency a
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: contract because they discriminate against married same-sex couples. Were you
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: surprised that this was a unanimous decision? And why was
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: Samuel Alito so pissed about it?
• 24:27
  Speaker 6: OK, so lots to say about this. This is a decision, again,
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: the unanimity, I think, is a little deceptive. And I
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: think it raises the question, why did the liberals on
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: the court sign on to a decision that basically allows
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: the city of Philadelphia to allow Catholic services to administer
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: this portion of their foster care system and in doing
• 24:49
  Speaker 6: so to discriminate against same-sex couples? I think the reason
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: the liberals joined this is because it's really narrowly written.
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: They talk specifically about the idea that because the city
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: of Philadelphia's policies allows for exemptions, that means that they
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: are necessarily considering religion as part of it. And that
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: is a discrimination against religion. But more importantly, the fact
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: that there are exemptions means that this is not a
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: generally applicable law that is neutral towards religion, which means
• 25:21
  Speaker 6: it takes off the table the broader question of whether
• 25:25
  Speaker 6: this 1990 decision, employment division versus Smith.
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: Should be overruled.
• 25:30
  Speaker 6: Because according to the majority, Smith isn't applicable here because
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: this law doesn't implicate Smith because it allows for these
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: exceptions and therefore it is not generally applicable or neutral.
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: I think that's the reason why the liberals joined this.
• 25:45
  Speaker 6: It is the least of the two evils. This could
• 25:49
  Speaker 6: have been a very sweeping decision that overruled Employment Division
• 25:54
  Speaker 6: versus Smith, which is a 1990s case that basically says
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: you don't get an out from generally neutral law or
• 26:03
  Speaker 6: you don't get an out from neutral laws of general
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: applicability like anti-discrimination laws just because there is some incidental
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: burden on religion. Wiping out Smith would basically allow almost
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: any religious entity to claim that a neutral law had
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: an impact on them because it required them to sort
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: of change their behavior or to do something that they
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: otherwise say that their religion would not allow them to do.
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: So the prospect of overruling Smith was really huge. And
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: I think if you look at some of the other
• 26:32
  Speaker 6: cases that have come down this term, not necessarily on
• 26:34
  Speaker 6: the court's regular docket, but on the shadow docket and
• 26:37
  Speaker 6: the COVID docket, you can already see the sort of
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: breadcrumbs being scattered that, you know, Smith is not long
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: for this world. So to me, the surprising thing was
• 26:46
  Speaker 6: they didn't actually overrule Smith. Um, And I think this
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: is a kind of liberal appeasement. Like, we'll go along
• 26:53
  Speaker 6: with you on this. We will allow Catholic services to
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: discriminate against same-sex couples in foster care as long as
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: you don't completely upend the way that we normally think
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: about free exercise of religion by overruling Smith. And I
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: think that's why Justice Scalia, or just see Freudian slip.
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: That's why Justice Alito is so exercised here because I
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: think he... was one of the ones who took up
• 27:18
  Speaker 6: this case for the express purpose of reorienting free exercise
• 27:23
  Speaker 6: doctrine by overruling Smith. And he says that in this dissent.
• 27:27
  Speaker 6: We have had so many invitations to take this up.
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: So many people find that Smith is incoherent and out
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: of step with current free exercise jurisprudence. We need to
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: just correct this and get rid of this obviously erroneous decision.
• 27:41
  Speaker 6: And the majority said, no dice.
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: We're not doing that.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: So I'm glad you brought that up because I You know,
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: these cases, look, I'm not a legal expert. I watch
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: this like everybody else and I end up being concerned
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: about outcomes. Like these are cases about discrimination against gay couples.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: There's the contraception mandate case that happened last year. But
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: you brought up Smith. Smith is a Scalia decision and
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: was more concerned about free exercise being used to like
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: justify things that were abhorrent to conservatives at the time
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: being things like gay marriage or drug use. And because
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: so much of this debate has been along this one
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: partisan alignment, I'm actually just curious how you think about
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: this question of where free exercise meets these sort of
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: exemptions and how progressive legal experts think about this, irrespective
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: of outcomes.
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: So I think it's really important, the point that you
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: made about the provenance of all this. When Smith is
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: decided in 1990s, and perhaps it's useful for your listeners
• 28:42
  Speaker 6: to hear a little bit of the background of the case,
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: this was a decision in which a Native American challenged
• 28:48
  Speaker 6: his ineligibility for employment benefits. And the reason he was
• 28:51
  Speaker 6: ineligible for unemployment benefits was because he was fired for
• 28:56
  Speaker 6: using peyote, which is a hallucinogenic drug. But he argued
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: his use of peyote was connected to his religious observance.
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: He was Native American. This was part of one of
• 29:04
  Speaker 6: their ceremonies. And that was the reason why he was
• 29:07
  Speaker 6: using it. And so when he was fired and then
• 29:09
  Speaker 6: made ineligible for the unemployment benefits because of the drug use.
• 29:12
  Speaker 6: He said that was an infringement on his free exercise rights.
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: The court comes in, and again, this is a Native American,
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: so this is not a sort of traditional majority religion.
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: The court says, you know, this is a neutral law
• 29:25
  Speaker 6: that just says you can't get unemployment benefits if the
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: reason you're fired is because of drug use. It's not
• 29:30
  Speaker 6: meant to hobble religion in any way. It's not meant
• 29:32
  Speaker 6: to stick it to the faithful. It's just a neutral
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: law of general applicability. And noted liberal Antonin Scalia writes it.
• 29:42
  Speaker 6: Noted liberal William H. Rehnquist signs onto it. And it's
• 29:47
  Speaker 6: a pretty bipartisan composition of the court. Stevens is in there.
• 29:51
  Speaker 6: O'Connor concurs there. I mean, it's not a liberal decision
• 29:56
  Speaker 6: per se. It's just sort of, this is how they're
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: viewing free exercise at the time. I don't think that
• 30:01
  Speaker 6: free exercise has a particular ideological character, although more recently
• 30:06
  Speaker 6: we have seen it become more muscular under the tutelage
• 30:11
  Speaker 6: of the conservative justice. It's like a more expansive understanding
• 30:14
  Speaker 6: of free exercise that serves conservative ideologies, but I don't
• 30:18
  Speaker 6: think it has to be that way. So for example-
• 30:22
  Speaker 6: Some very progressive Catholics have argued that they should be
• 30:27
  Speaker 6: exempt from criminal laws that prohibit providing aid to migrants
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: crossing the borders because their Catholic faith requires them to
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: help and serve the indigent and those in distress. So
• 30:42
  Speaker 6: you could understand that as a kind of free exercise
• 30:45
  Speaker 6: accommodation of religious observance. But We, in the last couple
• 30:49
  Speaker 6: of years, I think, have become more traditionally attuned to
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: thinking about free exercise as something that serves evangelicals, conservatives,
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: and conservative ideologies, but it doesn't have to be that way.
• 30:59
  Speaker 6: And I think looking back where Smith started, you can
• 31:02
  Speaker 6: just sort of see that was a minority religious sect
• 31:06
  Speaker 6: that is really illegible to our understanding of classical Christian
• 31:10
  Speaker 6: or evangelical Christianity that has come to embody the free
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: exercise clause today.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: So those are the two big cases from last week. Melissa,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I also want to get your take on this lead
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: from last week's New York Times analysis of the Supreme
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Court's latest term. It starts, it's by Adam Liptak. It starts,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Justice Amy Coney Barrett's arrival on the Supreme Court seemed
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: to create a conservative juggernaut. Instead, its liberal wing is
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: having a good run. Do you buy that?
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: I think rumors of the death of the conservative juggernaut
• 31:44
  Speaker 6: have been grossly exaggerated in this particular instance. I think
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: looking at just the argued cases, you might get the
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: impression that this has been a big win for progressives
• 31:57
  Speaker 6: across the board.
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: But I don't think that's right. These are very, very
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: narrow cases.
• 32:02
  Speaker 6: If you want to call them victories, that really just
• 32:05
  Speaker 6: sort of stave off a more desultory outcome for progressives.
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: I don't think these are the sort of full-throated, robust
• 32:13
  Speaker 6: victories that people.
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: Would like to see.
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: More importantly, that analysis that LIPTAC offers doesn't take into
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: account what has been happening on the shadow docket, which
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: is that docket of emergency appeals that the court often
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: takes up without full briefing or oral argument. And we
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: see a lot of the COVID cases, the death penalty
• 32:33
  Speaker 6: cases on that docket, FDA versus ACOG, which was really
• 32:36
  Speaker 6: important reproductive rights case earlier this year, that came up
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: on the shadow docket. And those cases have been much,
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: much more skewed to the conservative end of things. So
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: To say that the court has somehow surprisingly liberal or
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: surprisingly progressive, I think, is to really miss the forest
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: for the trees. You have to take all of this
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: in concert. And there's a broader picture here than just
• 33:00
  Speaker 6: what's been argued or these narrow decisions that we've just gotten.
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: And we're also not done with the rest of this term.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Have you seen any indications that either Kavanaugh or Barrett
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: might be less conservative than you expected?
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: I don't know that we've seen a lot from either
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: of them.
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: So, you know, we've had the NCAA case today where
• 33:21
  Speaker 6: Justice Kavanaugh, noted basketball fan, wrote a concurrence in which
• 33:26
  Speaker 6: he invited more cases to challenge whether the NCAA's policies,
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: all of their policies, are consistent with antitrust laws, which suggests,
• 33:36
  Speaker 6: you know, I'm not saying that that's liberal or progressive,
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: but it certainly seems.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: activist, if you will, sort.
• 33:43
  Speaker 6: Of the invitation to industries to bring more litigation before
• 33:48
  Speaker 6: the court, which I think is interesting. Justice Barrett, we've
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: only had, I think, one or two opinions from her,
• 33:54
  Speaker 6: one majority, and then the concurrence in the ACA.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Case.
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: So I think it's a little too soon to tell.
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: Next term, when we hear that major abortion case on
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: the Mississippi abortion restriction and Dobbs, I think we'll get
• 34:08
  Speaker 6: a better picture of what the addition of both of
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: these justices might mean for the court going forward.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Lovett, do you think that even the appearance of unexpected
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: moderation sort of hurts the movement to reform the Supreme Court?
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Yes, of course it does.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Like, You know, if the fact that if three liberal
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: justices had written like a broadside against a more sweeping
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: decision against gay couples, like I think we'd be having
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: a different conversation. I think we'll be having a different
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: conversation next year if Roe is either overturned or extremely limited.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: Like this is a long-term effort to reform the court.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: But the only thing I was curious about what Melissa
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: thought about this was that even if there's a little
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: bit of like, because the appearance of consensus, these stories
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: about consensus may remove a little bit the wind from
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: the sails. Like it does seem to me that there's
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: still been some value to this kind of pressure from
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: the outside. And I'm curious if you see some of
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: the effort to kind of, by Roberts to create bigger
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: than five, four majorities or six, three majorities is in
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: some way of a reflection of the fear of of
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: the pressure from the outside that this is a partisan institution,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: a Republican institution.
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: I think that's decidedly the case.
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: And I don't think it's just the Chief Justice who
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: worries about this. I think Justice Breyer is worried about
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: this as well. I mean, I think one way that
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: you could read these sets of decisions is sort of
• 35:41
  Speaker 6: Justice Breyer making good on his point that we can
• 35:45
  Speaker 6: and should have compromise on the court. We shouldn't be
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: talking about structural reform of the court. Instead, what we
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: should be talking about is really getting the politics out
• 35:53
  Speaker 6: of it. And I think you could take these unanimous
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: conservative or unanimous progressive victories as evidence of Justice Breyer
• 36:03
  Speaker 6: trying to cross the aisle, trying to work with his
• 36:06
  Speaker 6: colleagues to fashion decisions where they can all get along.
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: But again, the broader the majority, the narrower the decision
• 36:15
  Speaker 6: ground is. Again, and I think that suggests they're really
• 36:19
  Speaker 6: not as close together as you think. They're actually quite
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: far apart in terms of where they are on some
• 36:24
  Speaker 6: of these issues. And in order to have that kind
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: of unanimity or consensus, you really have to decide these
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: cases quite narrowly. And does that support or give fuel
• 36:34
  Speaker 6: to the effort to reform the court?
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: But I don't think people talking about this term as
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: a triumph of the liberals or the triumph of consensus
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: is going to put much wind in the sails of
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: those who favor structural reform. And I think maybe that's
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: the point.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, even Alito in one of his many angry
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: missives talks about how narrow some of these decisions are
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: as saying basically you're avoiding these big questions.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: But speaking of working the refs, so Mitch McConnell has
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: now said explicitly that he will not fill a Supreme
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: Court seat if he's in the majority in 2024. He's
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: even not committing to do it in 2023, which means
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: basically we have until the, you know, if there's a
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: chance we lose the Senate, we have until the end
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: of this congressional term to fill an open seat. Do
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously, Justice Breyer is very concerned about politics
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: and how it plays inside of the court. Do you
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: know if he has access to the news? Does he
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: know about the news?
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: I think he does.
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: I'm pretty sure he knows that he is the subject
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: of much discussion and speculation.
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't know that he cares.
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think Justice Breyer is going to do
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: what Justice Breyer is going to do. But, you know,
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: it strikes me that The example of Ruth Bader Ginsburg
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: sort of trying to hold on until an election and
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: ultimately not being able to has got to be a
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: kind of strong caveat to anyone who thinks about their
• 38:12
  Speaker 6: position in a certain multi-member institution in a particular way.
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: And as much as he likes and wants consensus, I
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: can't imagine that Justice Breyer does not recognize that the
• 38:23
  Speaker 6: political winds are against consensus if he holds out for
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: much longer. So I don't know what that means, but
• 38:29
  Speaker 6: surely he must be aware of it.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, it does seem like on his own terms,
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: like if he is concerned about the politicization of the court,
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: presumably one thing to avoid is a rending battle in
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: which the sides decide they can't fill it because of
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: partisan divisions.
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: No, I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know,
• 38:47
  Speaker 6: I wonder if he's thinking about those McConnell comments. I mean,
• 38:50
  Speaker 6: because those comments just make clear like this is going
• 38:53
  Speaker 6: like if this gets to the point where it's even
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: close to an election or just like abutting an election,
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: this is going to be a huge partisan, you know,
• 39:01
  Speaker 6: cluster or whatever. And it's going to be bad. And
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: Now is really the safe time to do this. I
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: don't even know how safe it is.
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: Like, who knows? Like, you know, what happens in this Senate?
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't know.
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: But if there was going to be a time to
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: step down, to be assured that a Democratic president could
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: nominate your successor, like now would be the time. And
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: I can't imagine that he doesn't get that. Yeah.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: And now would be the time to make the process
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: as depoliticized as possible.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: If he did it now, especially, I mean, he's got
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: to look at some of the some of the judges
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: who've just been confirmed in the Senate have gotten confirmed
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: with pretty lopsided margins.
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: His former clerk, Katonji Brown-Jackson.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: I was just about to say that.
• 39:42
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: So Katonji Brown-Jackson gets confirmed with, you know, a healthy majority.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: And if he stepped down now and she was happened,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: you know, Biden appointed her to the Supreme Court, you
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: would you would expect at least that the Republicans who
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: just voted for her for the D.C. Circuit Court of
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Appeals would do the same. Or anyway, Melissa Murray, thank
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: you so much for coming back to Pod Save America.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Always a pleasure. Everyone go check out Strict Scrutiny. It's
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: a fantastic podcast. And when we come back, Senator Bernie
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Sanders is here to chat with Tommy.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I am thrilled to welcome back to the show Vermont
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator, thank you so much for joining us.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: My pleasure.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: So, Senator, thank you. I'd love to just geek out
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: on infrastructure to start, if you don't mind. So there
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: are these two tracks in Congress when it comes to
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: passing this infrastructure bill. There's a bipartisan bill that invests
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: in hard infrastructure, roads, bridges, etc., None of these separate
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: talks by Democrats about using the reconciliation process to patch
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: a much larger bill that includes other critical spending to
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: address climate change, healthcare priorities, et cetera. Can you give
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: us just a sense of like what the latest is
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: with that reconciliation track?
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: Well, I think you gave us a good overview, Tommy.
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: On one hand, you have 20 some odd Democrats and
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Republicans working on a very narrow infrastructure proposal, which deals
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: with what we traditionally call infrastructure. What we don't know
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: at this point is how they're going to fund it.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: And they are still debating it. So I can't tell
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: you this. They don't know yet. But it sounds to
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: me what we are hearing is might be an increase
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: in the gas tax, might be a fee on electric vehicles.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: It might be. They give it a fancy term. But
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: I think it sounds to me like infrastructure privatization. Not
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: a new idea, but a very bad idea. So the
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: problem I have with what they're doing is, A, it
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: is too small even to deal with roads and bridges.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: It's about one quarter of what Biden wanted. Number two,
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: their funding appears to be, at this point, very regressive
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: and anti-working class. As I think most of you viewers know,
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: study after study has shown that you've got billionaires out there,
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: some of the wealthiest people in this country, in a
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: given year pay $ 0. in federal income tax. You've got
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: large multinational corporations making huge profits, pay zero in federal
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: income tax. They, for their own political reasons or whatever,
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: choose not to deal with that. They rather have use
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: of these coming down heavy on working people, obviously not
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: something I am sympathetic to. We, on the other hand,
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: are kind of taking a different look at what we
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: mean infrastructure. Infrastructure is not just roads and bridges. I
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: could say to you, what's the infrastructure of your Program,
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: you know, what's your staffing line? Where's the money coming from?
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: That's infrastructure. And when I look at infrastructure, it is
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: what are the foundations that a modern society needs to
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: run and run well. And when you look at the
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: world that way, obviously you got to deal with climate.
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, how irresponsible, how insane it would be if
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: we didn't deal with climate when the future of the
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: planet is at stake. If you're talking about a modern society,
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: how do you not deal with childcare and education and
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: higher education, making sure that we have the best educated
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: workforce in the world? How do you not deal with
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: housing when you have close to 600,000 people homeless, 18
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: million households spending 50% of their limited incomes for housing,
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, healthcare, you know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: I think it's imperative. that we expand Medicare to cover dental, eyeglasses,
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: and hearing aids. We are the only major country on
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: Earth not to have paid family and medical leave. Is
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: that acceptable? I think not. So those are some of
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: the issues that I believe have got to be included
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: in a serious reconciliation bill.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean, everything you're saying makes total sense
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: to me. I do think just sort of process-wise, there's
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: some concern among progressives about whether some of the more
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: moderate Democrats will actually support this follow-on reconciliation bill, because
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I remember well when Joe Manchin shot a bullet through
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: a cap and trade bill, right? So it makes me
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: wonder a bit about his willingness to aggressively tackle climate change. Yes, please.
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: You might want to get Senator Schumer on, but to
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: the best of my knowledge, leadership is very, very clear.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: There ain't going to be a small bipartisan infrastructure bill
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: that gets to the floor unless there is an ironclad
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: agreement that there will be support in very specific ways
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: for a larger reconciliation bill. Now, you might ask, why
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: in God's name do you need two bills? And the
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: answer is, I haven't a clue. But there are some
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: people who are wedded to the idea they love bipartisanship,
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: you know, and so that's the way it is. But
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: to answer your question, you know, as best I can understand,
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: we will not accept, I will not accept a smaller
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: bill at the expense of something larger.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: That's great news. I mean, I saw some House members
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: have even suggested withholding a vote on the bipartisan bill
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: until there's some agreement on reconciliation. Do you think that's
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: a good idea? Is that necessary?
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: We'll see if it's necessary or not. But what I
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: can tell you is it's a backup plan, if you like.
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: But given the crises that we face today, and I
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: got to say this, to me, this is legislation not
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: only dealing with roads and bridges of water and infrastructure,
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: childcare and paid family and medical leave and expanding Medicare.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: Tell me, you know what is even more significant than
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: all of that? It is whether we're going to regain
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: the faith of the American people in their democracy. Because
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: let me tell you, we're going to have a vote
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: on that tomorrow. If anybody out there, they say, oh, well,
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: Biden's doing a good job. You got Nancy in the
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: House and you got Chuck in the Senate. We don't
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: have to worry. If that's your attitude, man, you are dead, dead. Wrong. Worry.
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: Worry a whole lot. There's an election coming up in 2022.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: And if anyone thinks that the Democrats are shooing to
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: maintain control of the House and the Senate, you are
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: absolutely wrong. What we have got to show is millions
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: of especially working people, Black and white and Latino, Native American,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: Asian American, that in fact, government can work for them,
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: not just the billionaire class. Let me give you an
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: example of what I mean. Next month, struggling working class
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: families all over this country are going to get a check,
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: whatever it may be, $ 300 or so per child as
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: part of the child tax credit that we passed. Now,
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: you know what that means? You got two kids. Your
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: family's making $ 40, 000 or $ 50, 000 a year. You know what
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: that means to get $ 600 a month to help you
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: raise your kids? It means everything. It means that we're
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: going to take a real dent out of childhood poverty
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: in America. And we've got to continue to do that.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: to show working class people that government can in fact
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: stand up for them and not just wealthy campaign contributors.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that as well. I mean, I'm
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: glad you brought up this voting rights bill. You know,
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Senator Schumer is going to put a vote on the floor,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: I believe tomorrow on S1, the For the People Act.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Senator Manchin has said he doesn't support the bill in
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: its current form. Do you think there's a chance the
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Senate votes on an amended version that sort of includes
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: the changes that he wants? And just more broadly, like,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: you know, You know, you said Democrats, if you're not
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: paying attention to this, like time to wake up. What
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: do you say to Democrats who feel like, man, we
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: worked our tails off to win those seats in Georgia,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: to give Democrats control of the Senate. How are people
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: like Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema and others not fighting like
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: hell for this? Like this seems so urgent to us.
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: That's a long, long discussion, which maybe another time we
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: can have. I do not respond positively to people who say,
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: you know, we worked our tails off. I worked my
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: tail off. I'm sure you did. We all did. Millions
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: of people did. But you know what? The other side
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: is working their tail as well. And in many ways,
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: even more effectively than our siders. What we are taking
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: on now is a Republican Party. And for all the people, please,
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: this is not the old Republican Party. It's not the
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: Ronald Reagan Party. It's not the Bush Party. This is
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: a whole new version of a party which is based
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: on the big lie that Trump actually won the election
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: by a landslide and that there is massive fraud and
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: that they need to have election integrity, which really means
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: taking millions, denying millions of people, often people of color,
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: lower income people, young people, taking away their right to vote.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: That is what's going on right now. And if these
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: guys win, that will only be cemented and broadened. So
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: we are fighting right now, not just for strong social policy,
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: working families, maybe even more basic. We are fighting to
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: make sure that this country remains a democracy. Yeah.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're right. And this is like a very
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: emotional issue. I have definitely lost my cool when... talking
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: about the filibuster or the, for the people act or,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: or Joe Manchin's vote. I've seen members of Congress accuse
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: him of, you know, supporting white supremacy. Do you have
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: advice for people on, on what the best way is
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: to communicate with Joe Manchin or others who might be
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: a sticking point? I mean, people can do what they want.
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: You know, uh, What I can simply tell you from
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: my vantage point here is enormous pressure in every way
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: has been put on Manchin. The real answer, longer term,
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: is not to have only 50 Democrats in the Senate,
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: you know, and then we're not dependent on, you know,
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: right now, anybody, not just Manchin, can go forward and say,
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: I'm not supporting this bill. Forget it. That's it. And
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: it's all over.
• 50:04
  Speaker 7: So what we need to do is to, you know,
• 50:07
  Speaker 7: build that strong grassroots political movement which will elect a
• 50:12
  Speaker 7: hell of a lot more than 50 Democrats.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: So that's kind of where we're at.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So you mentioned this, the question of how to
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: pay for this infrastructure bill. I mean, stepping back a bit,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: you know, there was this ProPublica story that you also
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: mentioned about how the richest people in the country pay
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: basically nothing in taxes, right? And they avoid these taxes legally.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: They just get all their compensation via stock, right? So
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: you've been talking about this literally your whole career. Do
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: you have a proposal for how to amend the tax
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: code to actually get at this wealth and not just income?
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: We have a number of proposals. Yes, we do. I mean,
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: including a wealth tax, which basically says that we're going
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: to tax the incredible wealth that a handful of people
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: in this country have. But we have to raise the
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: corporate tax rate. We have to do away with Trump's
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: tax bill that he passed a few years ago. There's
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: an area that Biden has talked about, a study that
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: came out recently, and the guy who was head of
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: the IRS was a Trump appointee of all things. This
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: guy says right now that there is hundreds of billions
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: of dollars in lost tax revenue that wealthy people in
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: large corporations are not paying. Because they have, in many cases,
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: an army of accountants and lawyers who can help them
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: prevent them from paying their taxes. And they outgun the IRS.
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: They outgun the IRS. So by investing in the IRS,
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: getting more people who know what they're doing to take
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: on these corporations, the estimate is, I think, for every
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: dollar you invest, you gain $ 7 in lost revenue from
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: the very wealthy. And that's what we should be doing.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Last question for you. I mean, I imagine a
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: lot of people are listening to this. They feel the
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: urgency of all these big issues. How should we focus
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: our attention? What do you think people should be doing
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: right now to help you pass the agenda you talked
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: about in this interview?
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: I think one of the things that bothers me, and
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: it has a lot to do with corporate media in general,
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: is there is not enough discussion about the pain that
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: working-class families, Black, white, Latino, are experiencing right now. We
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: don't talk about it. Half of our people in America
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: are working paycheck to paycheck. How's that? That means at
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: the end of a week of hard work, you have
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: nothing in the bank. You're living paycheck to paycheck. A
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: paycheck stops coming. You're in serious trouble and your family
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: may lose their housing. We got millions of people working
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: for starvation wages. We got 90 million people who are
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: uninsured or underinsured. We have kids, as you know, young
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: people with outrageous levels of student debt. We have a
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: childcare system, which is beyond embarrassing. And we can create
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: millions of jobs by addressing climate change and rebuilding our
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: crumbling infrastructure. So I think the message has got to
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: be that in this pivotal moment in American history, we've
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: got to reaffirm people's belief that their government can work
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: for them. And the way you do that is by
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: delivering the goods, by delivering the goods, by people seeing
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: with their own eyes that real change is taking place
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: in their lives. I use the trial tax credit is
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: one of many examples. You raise the minimum wage with
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: at least 15 bucks an hour and make it easier
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: for workers to join unions. People see that as real change.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: Can you know what it means? Right now in my state,
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: which is probably about average, a family is spending $ 15, 000
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: a year for child care. $ 15, 000 a year. Maybe you're
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: a single mom, make it 45,000. One third of your
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: income goes to child care. Insane. Deal with that. How
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: many people pay no more than 7% of their income
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: or less for trial and trial? All of those things
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: is what we've got to focus on. So to my mind,
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: to answer your question, Tommy, and I think we've got
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: to talk about it more, is we need a government
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: that works for ordinary people and not just the very rich.
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: And when you say that, that covers everything from childcare
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: to expanding Medicare so elderly people kind of have dentures
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: in their mouth when they chew their food. That's what
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: it means, creating a government that works for all of us,
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: not just a few.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that advice. Thanks for fighting for
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: this agenda, Senator Sanders, and for doing the show.
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Bernie Sanders for being here today. Thanks to
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Professor Melissa Murray for joining us as well. And everyone
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: have a great week. Pod Save America is a Crooked
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: producer is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Nar Melkonian, who film and
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: share our episodes as videos every week.