Latest / The Hypnotist / Guest Hypnotist Howard Cooper and Adam Cox Discuss Nested Loops

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Guest Hypnotist Howard Cooper and Adam Cox Discuss Nested Loops · The Hypnotist

0:00
Welcome to The Hypnotist, the show that gives you inside
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access to cutting edge hypnosis with real clients facing genuine
0:07
issues. Brought to you by the
0:10
hypnotherapist, demanded by celebrities, CEOs and even
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royalty. Adam Cox.
0:16
These recordings took place live from Adam's clinic in London's
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world famous Harley Street. This podcast features powerful
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hypnosis, so do not listen while driving or operating machinery.
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This recording is not suitable for those with epilepsy or
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severe mental health issues, so get yourself comfortable and
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enjoy today's episode of The Hypnotist.
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Hi, it's Adam here. And on today's episode of The
0:42
Hypnotist, we're going to be talking about nested loops with
0:45
Howard Cooper. Welcome.
0:46
Oh, thanks for having me back. Really pleased to be back.
0:49
Yeah, I think last time we we talked, it was mainly learning
0:52
about you, your background, and we never really got to talk
0:56
about nested loops, which is one of my favorite topics.
0:59
And I know something you're very kind of curious about as well.
1:01
I I have been thinking and musing and playing with nested
1:06
loop for a long time and I know we intended to talk about it
1:09
last time and then we ended up going on some I think.
1:12
I think maybe you pressed my buttons.
1:14
I ended up going talking about the dark side of personal
1:16
development. Yeah, the dark underbelly.
1:18
We did indeed talk about that. Dark underbelly.
1:21
I love that phrase. Yeah, it is.
1:23
It's yeah. Fires up the imagination, so
1:27
it's worth defining for those people listening that aren't
1:30
aware of nested loops. Maybe starting with loops
1:34
themselves. Open loops and just loops what?
1:36
What do you consider a good way of explaining a loop?
1:42
For me, a loop is or an open loop is very simple.
1:48
It's engaging the brain in something and it could be a
1:53
story and then not giving the conclusion to it and just
1:58
letting it hang and it it it, it's kind of like reminds me of.
2:06
I'll share this with you. This is kind of fascinating.
2:09
One of the weirdest things I ever had happen in a client
2:12
session. Oh well, actually, if only it
2:14
had been a client session, that would have been nice.
2:16
But someone had booked in to see me and I went down to reception
2:20
when they called to say he was there.
2:22
And there's only one guy there, so it had to be him.
2:24
And this guy had not seen me before.
2:27
I don't think he knew what I looked like.
2:29
And that'll become relevant in a moment when I tell you as I walk
2:32
in and he looks up at me, he just went, are you Howard?
2:37
And I went Yeah. And he went no and ran out the
2:40
building pretty much. It was the weirdest thing.
2:43
And I went to chase after him and he, I swear he must have
2:47
liked it because he was no longer there.
2:49
So I rang him to say what on earth has just happened because
2:51
the receptionist was going What was that about?
2:54
Strange, yeah. Very odd.
2:56
And and I didn't know. So I rang him and he didn't take
2:59
my call. I even refunded his money
3:01
because they paid in advance and sent him an e-mail and never
3:04
responded. And you know when something just
3:07
niggles and you're just like, what on earth happened there?
3:10
What on earth? And this just stayed with me for
3:14
a long time. And finally about three months
3:16
later, I just out of it, on a whim, I withheld my number and I
3:19
rang him and he picked up and I finally discovered what it was
3:23
that had happened. And.
3:26
What was it? Well, the the thing for me is
3:31
there's something called the zigonic effect, which is
3:35
essentially unfinished information, kind of sticks out
3:40
more. And they did lots of research
3:42
where they took people in restaurants and they interviewed
3:46
waiters and waitresses and waiters and waitresses.
3:49
They could have this go to a table like Table 5, have a
3:52
collect all the information for a very complex order.
3:55
This one's having the beef, this one's having the chicken, but
3:57
the chicken but without the special Rosemary juice because
4:00
they are allergic to whatever. And they could retain all the
4:03
information from multiple tables.
4:05
But the interesting thing was the moment they put the food
4:07
back on the table and delivered the food to complete the order,
4:11
you could say what did they just have?
4:12
And they would go, I don't know, can't remember, but they could
4:15
retain the information while ever it was open.
4:18
So for me, a loop is a good example of it is going through a
4:23
story, getting to the point of great curiosity, interest and
4:28
then navigating it away and it it kind of leaves the audience
4:32
going. Tell me more.
4:33
Yeah, like a cliffhanger in a, in a soap opera, or I think most
4:38
people have had the experience of someone's about to reveal
4:41
some kind of, they've got that tonality of sharing a secret, a
4:45
bit of gossip. And then they realize that
4:47
they've said too much or they're saying it to the wrong person.
4:49
And then they backtrack. And in that moment, something
4:53
that that individual was completely indifferent about,
4:56
now they want to know. Now they have to know.
4:58
And, and for me, that's that's an open loop.
5:01
It's that incompleteness that that element of why, why, why
5:05
are they not telling me like what what's happening here?
5:08
And I think that's why, you know, we've got this phenomenon
5:11
in dating of ghosting where, you know, people go on a couple of
5:14
dates and then they just kind of cut off all communication.
5:17
That's an open loop because you don't know what was the thing
5:20
that made them not want to continue seeing them.
5:23
And and that's worse than just giving a reason, because now
5:27
they're in their own head trying to figure out what it was.
5:30
You could think of it as unfinished business.
5:32
You know when you see all the all the the films about people
5:34
who have passed on and they can't move on to the afterlife
5:37
because they have unfinished business.
5:39
Their job is to close the loops of their life.
5:42
As is a psychic, you know, I would say the, the business of
5:45
being a psychic quite often is to work with people that they
5:48
can't close the loop because that person's dead and then, you
5:52
know, they can communicate. And quite often it is no, they
5:55
want you to move on, you know, they're, they forgive you,
5:57
whatever that thing is to close. Although I'm always intrigued
6:00
that, you know, just, I, I've met a lot of people who are not
6:02
that kind and giving. And you'd think that, you know,
6:04
when people pass that there, there should at least be some
6:07
assholes that are still assholes in the afterlife.
6:10
And you never hear the psychic say, you know, oh, we spoke to
6:12
Bob and he says he still wants you to suffer.
6:16
Never. It's always he he loves you
6:18
deeply and he he wants you to move on.
6:20
Yeah, that's it. And it's convenient that isn't.
6:23
It is it always completely? Yes, absolutely.
6:25
I'd say nothing. That's it.
6:28
So that's an open loop unfinished business,
6:30
incompleteness. I started my career in in radio
6:33
and and they would have this phrase, a teaser.
6:36
So they would, they would say, coming up later on the show,
6:39
We've got a very special guest. Say no more right now, but stay
6:42
tuned to find out more. An open loop, it's
6:44
incompleteness. So if that's an open loop, how
6:47
do you define a nested loop? So a nested loop is not just
6:53
opening 1 loop, it's opening a loop with some unfinished
6:57
business. And then before you give them
7:00
the conclusion, the closing of that down, you then open another
7:05
loop and perhaps even another one.
7:09
And then over time the, the, the brains begins to get a little
7:14
bit confused and blurred as to hang on which, which, where am
7:17
I, which loops have or haven't been closed.
7:21
And then you might then go off and then close the loops in in
7:25
the reverse order. So essentially stories become
7:29
stories within stories within stories.
7:32
And there's some thinking and some theories as to how this
7:36
helps people package information up in their mind in a particular
7:40
way, or how to help people be less cognitive about information
7:47
that you want to present to them.
7:49
It sort of keeps them in that state of slight bewilderment,
7:53
confusion. It draws them in in a particular
7:56
way so that they could become, if we want to get hypnotic about
8:00
it. And why not?
8:00
This is a a particular hypnotic podcast.
8:05
More suggestible or willing to take on ideas?
8:08
Yeah, the mind is open. And I think the nature of
8:12
storytelling anyway is that people will remember stories
8:16
years after they've heard that story.
8:18
If they're given information and facts, they tend to forget that
8:21
kind of stuff pretty quick. And, and one of the talks that I
8:24
do at conferences is on movie metaphors.
8:27
And I'll ask people to raise their hand and tell me a film
8:30
that they haven't seen in the last 10 years, but they love
8:32
that movie and they can recall the structure of a film they
8:36
haven't seen in 10 years because there's natural mnemonics in
8:39
there. So it gives us anecdotal
8:41
evidence at least that let's say attention, awareness, memory
8:46
engagement is quite high, you know, within this kind of
8:48
storytelling element. And, and that element of while
8:53
their mind is in that way, probably we could say they're
8:56
more engaged, They are more open to suggestion.
9:00
And the nature of I look at nested loops is that there's
9:03
also not just incompleteness, but some level of confusion,
9:06
particularly two or three levels down.
9:09
And then while they're in that space, it's kind of like, well,
9:11
you know, they are willing to kind of question whatever that
9:14
pattern is or, or whatever that pre-existing belief is because
9:18
they they lose that sense of certainty that they might have
9:21
if it's too predictable. Yes.
9:23
And I think there is some theory around if you are working with
9:29
someone who's anxious, for example, and you can sort of
9:34
say, well, that anxiety that you're experiencing reminds me
9:37
of, and then you tell a story that kind of resonates with it
9:41
and future pace is almost an anxious state.
9:43
And then off that you break into another story and then another
9:47
story. And each one gets closer to a
9:49
solution and a resourceful state.
9:52
Then the thinking is, or the theory is, is that when they
9:55
next feel anxious, the anxiety triggers the thought and the
9:59
remembering of that story, which was like them, which in turn
10:02
triggers the unfolding of the solution.
10:07
And it happens unconsciously. Yeah.
10:10
So they say. So they do say and, and I, and I
10:13
think there's an element of clearly people are more engaged
10:16
the, the incompleteness. We know that people are
10:18
motivated to kind of close that loop.
10:21
If that person gave you a reason and said, I don't work with men
10:25
with beards, the loop is closed. You're not chasing them after
10:28
the street, you're not giving them a phone call.
10:30
But the fact that you had the incompleteness, you didn't know
10:33
why he just said no and walked out, creates this huge element
10:37
of motivation to to to find the missing piece, like figure out
10:41
what that thing is. So absolutely.
10:42
Which was why it was such a relief when I I finally
10:45
discovered. That's it.
10:47
We finally discovered. So we've got some open loops
10:51
going right now. And we, we, we do indeed.
10:54
And, and, and I think for, for people listening, they might not
10:57
be able to concentrate on what I'm saying now.
10:59
And while that open loop's open and that, that's a good example
11:01
because we now have digression. We have an open loop and now
11:04
we're following the conversation in a different direction and it
11:07
might be that we open up a couple more loops in this
11:09
conversation I. Certainly hope so and and.
11:12
That is in essence a a nested loop, which reminds me the thing
11:17
that led me to kind of think about this whole idea of nested
11:20
loops for my podcast. I was getting inspiration from
11:23
movies and one of the 1st movies that I turned into like a
11:27
hypnosis session was Limitless. And then after that, I kind of
11:32
got into some of the Chris Nolan things and it was Inception that
11:37
I thought, right, I love the movie Inception.
11:39
Let me turn Inception into a hypnosis thing.
11:43
And obviously the you've seen Inception.
11:45
I'm guessing I have. Indeed.
11:46
So for the I Dreamt I Did well, For those that haven't seen
11:51
Inception, it's a Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hardy movie
11:57
directed by Chris Nolan. But the concept is, is that
12:00
there's this kind of clever machine that enables you to
12:02
experience a dream. And there is a, a son, I think
12:08
of a, of a wealthy industrialist and they want to put a seed of
12:12
an idea in the mind of that particular person.
12:16
I think it's what's the name of the the the actor from Peaky
12:21
Blinders? Oh no, I'm having what what I
12:26
call contagious amnesia now. I can't remember it.
12:29
We are. Opening another loop here, but
12:31
but anyway, part of the, the, the premise is to put a seed of
12:36
an idea in, in, in the unconscious mind that becomes a
12:39
belief. It would be rejected if it's
12:42
just done at the conscious level and it has to be done at let's
12:47
say a, a deeper level of the unconscious.
12:50
And the premise of the movie is that if you go within dreams
12:53
within dreams within dreams, then it gets high level of, of
12:57
time distortion, things like that, which is a hypnotic
12:59
phenomenon, but also that seed of an idea is more likely to
13:03
take root and become indistinguishable from reality.
13:08
So they've got this machine of kind of dreams within dreams.
13:11
And I think to begin with they, you know, they, they've got this
13:16
kind of machine and they being chased by people, but there's
13:19
one level, which is reality. And then they're in the back of
13:22
a van. And then while they're in the
13:24
van, they're hooked up to the new machine, which then takes
13:27
them to a hotel. And with this hotel, there's
13:31
some kind of vault or safe that has a code.
13:34
And then while they're in that hotel, they then hook someone up
13:38
a different character to go within.
13:40
Another dream takes them to a snow fortress.
13:43
And then within that snow fortress, it takes them to this
13:45
element of, I think, this kind of underworld, kind of
13:50
apocalyptic, you know, kind of place.
13:53
So you've got a dream within a dream within a dream within a
13:56
dream within a dream. And I built this hypnosis
13:59
session based on the rough kind of storyline of Inception and
14:04
couldn't help but see how much it mapped over with this idea of
14:07
nested loops, that something's happening in reality, but you
14:12
don't quite know how that's resolved.
14:14
And then something's happening in the band.
14:16
They're being chased by people, but you don't know whether or
14:19
not they're going to get caught or not before they open the new
14:21
loop in the hotel again. They've got to find a number to
14:25
access something before they go to the snow fortress.
14:28
And I just thought, given the memory recall of movies, like if
14:32
I try to remember a story, a verbal story that someone
14:35
explained, I wouldn't remember that.
14:37
But I've seen Inception, I think the last time over five years
14:40
ago. And I've got a rough approximate
14:43
kind of idea of the levels of disassociation in a movie I
14:46
haven't seen in years. So it kind of dawned on me that
14:49
actually what if, rather than thinking of stories within
14:53
stories in this kind of verbal storytelling way that actually
14:58
we use almost like different environmental locations as a
15:03
mnemonic to take people on this kind of nested loop journey.
15:07
Still get the benefit of levels of disassociation, but make it
15:11
so that the average hypnotherapist could more easily
15:16
integrate it, if that makes any sense.
15:18
It doesn't. I really like the idea.
15:20
I haven't really thought about it in that way of using, of
15:22
thinking of it as levels of dissociation.
15:25
The idea of being able to have, you know, step back and have
15:28
perspective taking on behaviours, on reflections, on
15:32
solution finding rather than being caught in it.
15:35
So each time, you know, you take them further out or open another
15:39
loop, you're kind of giving them a different sense of
15:43
perspective. And I think a lot of good
15:44
therapy is all about changing perspectives, perspective
15:48
taking. Yeah.
15:49
Because when I work with clients, a lot of the time I,
15:53
the first level you can call that reality.
15:55
And then I'll say, is there a place that they associate with
16:00
kind of positive feelings, relaxation, tranquility?
16:03
Quite often it is a beach or a lake or something like that.
16:05
And what I'd like to do is have them imagine that beach that
16:08
they've already got good emotions with.
16:10
And then imagine that there is a, a puzzle on a table and they,
16:15
they've got all the pieces, but the puzzle isn't quite finished.
16:18
And they see a part of them attempt to finish the puzzle,
16:21
but then they see some kind of a doorway or a staircase, which
16:23
becomes the deepener to the, the second level of disassociation.
16:28
But we've now got this kind of, but what's the puzzle about?
16:30
And, and what's the puzzle going to reveal?
16:33
And then when I go back, I then kind of link the puzzle being
16:37
completed to a suggestion that they knew all along that they
16:41
had to kind of go on this journey to to find it, but by
16:44
using mnemonics of different locations and symbols.
16:49
So I tend to have, OK, you've got an environment like a beach
16:52
and then some kind of device to get them to the next place.
16:57
And that could be a portal, that could be a staircase, that could
17:00
be a mirror that they walk through.
17:02
And then they're in somewhere new.
17:04
And quite often if I use stage disassociation, that would be
17:06
their own private cinema. And then the cinema screen
17:09
becomes another level of disassociation.
17:12
So then it becomes, I think, fairly easy for me to have what
17:16
would be verbally very complex nested loops.
17:20
But for me, I'm telling this story that just happens to be
17:23
different scenes, different locations and different devices
17:26
to get to different things, which can kind of simplify the
17:30
whole place, right? And if.
17:31
You, I, I, I, I'm guessing what you're saying is if you get used
17:34
to it, it's always a device as an example, then it's just am I
17:39
at the device level? Am I at the the puzzle level?
17:42
Am I at the cinema level? Well, you, you've, you've got
17:45
the, you've got the, the device that operates as the open loop
17:49
and then you've got the, the environment and then you've got
17:51
the bridge or the stepping stone that gets them to the next level
17:54
of disassociation. And I find that symbolism is
17:58
really helpful there because it acts as a mnemonic.
18:01
So I, I learn mnemonics when I was, you know, I think 12 or 13.
18:05
And the key things is that quite often it would be something
18:09
disproportionate or unusual, but very visual.
18:14
So it wouldn't just be, you know, a normal mirror, it would
18:17
be a golden jewel encrusted mirror.
18:20
You can more likely to remember that, for example, or to get
18:24
from one level to another level, rather than just making it a
18:26
staircase, you could make it a child's slide.
18:29
Well, to get from a beach to, I don't know, a cinema, most
18:34
people wouldn't link that to a child's slide or a flume that
18:37
they kind of go through. So then it's very easy to
18:39
remember, OK, how do I then get back to the beach?
18:43
You climb up the slide and you, you've got this kind of way.
18:46
And I use this analogy of, of Hansel and Gretel and, and I,
18:50
and I did this talk in Ireland a couple of years ago where I was
18:53
saying, OK, what was the problem with Hansel and Gretel is that
18:56
they actually put bread crumbs. And then when they tried to find
18:59
their way back home, the forest animals had eaten that.
19:03
And at that, .1 of the people in the audience said, yeah, but the
19:06
original story didn't have bread crumbs.
19:08
It had, it had stones completely ruined my metaphor.
19:11
But but, but the essence is, I think that's why a lot of
19:14
hypnotist don't use nested loops because they're worried that
19:19
when they're at kind of 3 or 4 levels deep, they're going to
19:22
lose their way back home, if that makes sense it.
19:24
It does. It does.
19:26
I think there's also other reasons why they don't use it,
19:28
which is they have seen perhaps people who do it and do it well
19:35
or purport to do it well. And it can be confusing in terms
19:40
of exactly what are they doing, how are they doing it.
19:43
Richard Bandler comes to mind. You know, if you watch Richard
19:45
Bandler, he uses nested communication a lot.
19:48
True. And it's hard to track.
19:51
And one of the reasons it's hard to track is because they're so
19:53
flipping effective and taking you into a place where you get
19:57
caught up in the story and then you forget, hang on, where am I?
20:01
So it's hard to pay attention to it because it draws you in.
20:06
And therefore it's also hard to know exactly what and how he's
20:10
doing. What specifically is he aiming
20:13
at? You know why is he using the
20:15
nested loops at this particular time?
20:16
So the whole thing becomes a bit of a blur to try and model and
20:19
to try and kind of decipher I also.
20:21
Think with Bandler that I think sometimes he doesn't know where
20:24
he is. I, I, I think, I think for him,
20:27
my, my perspective initially was, oh, the guy's a genius.
20:30
He's weaving in these complex nested loop stories within
20:34
stories and it's all purely intentional.
20:36
And then I entertained a different idea.
20:39
And that is what if you've got this and I, I respect, you know,
20:43
Richard Bandler. I think he's a, he's a very
20:44
talented hypnotist. But I entertained another
20:46
thought, which is what if he's this cantankerous guy that goes
20:51
on digressions and, you know, Hill's telling one story.
20:55
And it's almost like that kind of, you know, old uncle that's
20:59
telling a story, starts a new story and never really gets back
21:02
to the, the previous story. And I think I've I've seen
21:05
Richard Bandler a few times and quite often there is no no even
21:09
attempt to go back and close the loop.
21:12
So utilize that kind of beginning bit.
21:14
It just seems like sometimes and maybe he's just so much of a
21:18
master that I can't fully comprehend what's happening.
21:21
Or maybe it's just someone telling a story.
21:24
Digressing, digressing, digressing, but not actually
21:27
using the element of opening a loop specifically to take them
21:33
then back through the loops. I.
21:35
I I do agree. I think there is an element of
21:38
that. There's an element of
21:39
showmanship, you know, and sort of impressing.
21:43
I think there's probably less going on than we think.
21:47
But one thing that I have seen is he's been, certainly when
21:50
I've seen him, he's been pretty thorough at closing loops as
21:53
best as possible when I have tracked.
21:55
And I, I remember one time going and seeing him do a 2 hour talk
22:00
and I just decided I would put a little note every time he opened
22:03
a loop with a little like a little a note to myself of what
22:08
that loop was, where it was located, all the.
22:11
And it's really hard to track him because after two hours and
22:15
there's so many loops and so many, but as best as possible he
22:19
did close them down. Interesting it.
22:21
Was quite apart from 1 and I thought oh he's ended and he
22:27
didn't close that last loop and I thought that's fascinating.
22:30
And then just before he he finished, he suddenly went 01
22:34
last thing. And then he just closed the last
22:37
loop and I was like oh damn it but.
22:40
Interestingly, I do. I've heard Mike Mandel talk
22:42
about open loops and he's telling the story about, you
22:46
know, there's a train and then a platform and then all this kind
22:49
of stuff. And then what he says that he
22:52
does is deliberately leaves one loop open so that they feel an
22:59
element of amnesia or, or was it that he closes an extra loop
23:05
that wasn't even there? So I think it's that.
23:06
I think it's that I think. And then they're like, but I
23:08
don't recall that. And now they've got the
23:10
evaluation that I, I must have forgotten that was even said.
23:13
So yeah, that's what he does. He closes loops that isn't
23:16
there. He closes.
23:17
Loops that aren't there. I mean, personally I like to use
23:22
loops from a state from a place of state elicitation.
23:26
In terms of curiosity of that, if I there, if I open some
23:30
loops, if I'm doing a speaking engagement or a training and
23:34
then at the end, right at the end, I close the loops down.
23:37
If nothing else, they all leave with this sense of like that
23:43
felt good. It's like it's like having the
23:45
the dessert after a meal where you just go, I'm nicely full
23:49
now. There we go.
23:50
That hit the spot and you're not quite sure how or why, but that
23:55
feeling of like, now I'm satisfied.
23:57
The world makes sense. I like to give that feeling to
24:00
people at the end of like and we're done.
24:04
And you can always equate that to some people that have certain
24:07
OCD characteristics and those kind of things.
24:10
It's kind of like it doesn't feel complete unless, unless
24:14
that thing is how it should be. And, and I remember working with
24:18
a lady, like, if I had my cup, you know, over the edge, she
24:23
couldn't concentrate on anything else until it was, until it was
24:27
like that, you know, it, it was just kind of obsessive.
24:30
And, and I imagine like there is that element of because if
24:34
something doesn't feel right, people are highly motivated to
24:36
make it right. So you've got the relief then
24:39
of, you know, unfinished business there, unfinished
24:41
business there. It's all been, it's all been
24:44
closed up. But the movies that I remember,
24:46
sometimes they deliberately open a loop right at the end to
24:52
encourage you to kind of almost think about it afterwards.
24:55
And, and I remember like a bizarre 1 and I can still
24:58
remember it now. It was a Harrison Ford movie
25:01
called Patriot Games. I don't know if you remember
25:03
that I. Don't think I've seen it, but I
25:05
I, I can picture the front cover from when I was in blockbusters,
25:08
yeah. He's kind of like a a general
25:10
and the the Sean Bean character is kind of like some kind of
25:13
terrorist. You know how to kind of cause
25:14
mayhem for him. And, and I remember right at the
25:17
end of that movie, his wife's pregnant.
25:20
And it's like, there's a gender reveal.
25:23
What's the gender of the baby, you know, And then it cuts the
25:26
credits and there was no, there was no secret.
25:29
And I'm thinking, I now give a shit about a gender of an
25:33
imaginary baby in a movie. Why?
25:36
And it just got to stay. It's an open loop.
25:39
Well, I I remember watching Lois and the Adventures of Lois and
25:41
Clark, The New Adventures of Superman as a kid and I loved
25:44
that show. And one season, the last season
25:48
ended as she comes downstairs, Lois and sees a baby in a cot
25:54
glowing green with a Superman logo on it.
25:58
And it's implied that it's there's a baby.
26:00
It's the biggest, it's most exciting thing that ever
26:02
happened in that show. And then it went to be continued
26:05
dot dot dot, and then it got cancelled.
26:08
And we never know. It's it's it's honestly been in
26:11
my head for years. I always think of unfinished
26:14
business. Is that like, when are they
26:17
going to go back to that storyline?
26:18
The truth is, never. They're never going to do it.
26:20
They're never. Going to do it and that, that
26:21
feels frustrating, right? Feels frustrating.
26:24
Still waiting? There's some part of me that is
26:27
still going, when is it back on, you know, but it keeps people
26:32
attentive and it's there's AII like the phrase response
26:35
potential. It builds, I think response
26:38
potential. It has that effect, being in a
26:41
loop of almost creating that sense of people wanting to lean
26:45
forward because they don't want to miss it.
26:48
I haven't missed it yet, have I? I haven't.
26:51
You know what, you know, it's, I used to do this if I was doing
26:56
a, a training session sometimes I used to, I like it when people
26:59
come back on time. You know, if anyone's done
27:01
training with me live, they'll know that I like people being in
27:04
the room at the right time so that we can get on with it.
27:07
So I used to joke that there's something that I do if people
27:09
turn up late. And it is something that I do,
27:12
which is if something turns up late wherever we are in the
27:16
seminar, and I warn the audience that I'll do this, I'll say
27:18
we're going to do this when they walk in, I'll suddenly change
27:21
what I'm saying and start saying.
27:23
And that's pretty much the one thing, the one thing that you
27:28
should take away from this thing.
27:29
If there's nothing other from this training that you should
27:32
take it, it's this one thing that pretty much encapsulates
27:35
everything that I wanted to get across.
27:36
And it's the most important thing.
27:37
And then I would just get everyone to to agree that
27:39
they'll write it down and, and acknowledge this.
27:41
They're like, oh, wow. And then we don't go back there.
27:44
A number of times I've done this and I've had people who turn up
27:46
late a come up to me afterwards and go, what was that?
27:50
I think I missed something key. And I go, I don't think so.
27:53
But I've noticed that when you do another day's training or you
27:56
do day two or three, they they're not the ones that turn
28:00
up late anymore, no. You've punished them with a with
28:03
a incompleteness the. Well, well, I think look at it
28:07
like not punishing them, but helping them come to the
28:11
conclusion that being in my sessions at the right time is a
28:14
good idea. Fear of missing out the gold,
28:17
the absolute gold. Oh dear.
28:20
Yeah. So I, so I think, you know, for,
28:22
for me, nested loops, if, if there is this kind of concern,
28:26
let's say that seeing someone like Bandler, it looks
28:28
overwhelmingly confusing and, and complex or there's this kind
28:32
of idea of getting lost in their own loops.
28:35
And I think one of the misconceptions of, of hypnosis
28:39
not quite as prevalent as urine under the spell, the control of
28:44
the, of the hypnotist. But it's this idea of not coming
28:47
out of hypnosis is is kind of like, you know, this idea of,
28:51
well, if you're lost in the loops and you can't figure you
28:54
in a way to get the the client out of the maze, they're lost in
28:56
the maze forever. What would you say for people
28:59
that either a hypnotist that don't do nested loops for that
29:02
reason or potential clients that would, you know, they're
29:06
concerned about getting lost in hypnosis?
29:08
Well, look. I I've got a collection, there's
29:09
at least 30-4 people that I've I've done nested loops with that
29:12
never came out of the loops. I just lost for good.
29:15
That's it. They've just, they've just gone.
29:17
There's no, no, no, no. Look, it's, I think the brain is
29:21
very forgiving, you know, and if I opened 17 loops and then got
29:31
called away or had a heart attack in the middle of a
29:32
session, there's 17 loops deep, you know, what would happen?
29:36
Now what? They'd be all right.
29:38
We'd all survive. They they would live to tell the
29:41
tale. We're.
29:43
Not finding out what happened with Lois and and Superman's
29:45
baby never did you any harm. That's.
29:47
Right, that's right. It's just the occasional.
29:50
Nightmare I, I tell you what, I have a recurring dream of, of
29:55
being halfway through some kind of semester or school year or
30:00
university year and it dawns on me that I haven't attended any
30:05
of my classes and the exams coming up soon and they're going
30:08
to find out. And I think that's because there
30:12
was, there was a time when I was doing a levels that I just
30:15
missed a few things. And I think that that feels like
30:18
unfinished business. So right.
30:20
I've had the same dream. It can.
30:22
And it's always biology, is to say.
30:24
It's always, you know, and you'd think, you know, now the ripe
30:28
old age of 3013 that I would have let go of worrying about
30:32
the fact that I I there was one biology homework that I didn't
30:35
do for a teacher that was very demanding.
30:37
But somewhere deep inside that's, you know, but, but
30:41
ultimately, I think so there's there's something that Ericsson
30:45
talks about as being the intersection of unconscious
30:47
meaning, you know, this idea that, you know, and the way I
30:54
think about it is it it's not just look, if I said to someone,
30:57
you know what my friend John, he was very good at being able to
31:02
relax now, yes, you could say I've given an embedded command
31:07
of relax now, but if I just say that to anybody, that's not
31:10
going to work. Just saying 1 embedded command
31:13
once. All right, you said it once,
31:16
great. They're not immediately going to
31:18
go into a trance and relax now, but if in the process of a
31:23
conversation every the thing that I'm doing is pointing
31:27
towards relaxation. So my embedded commands, my
31:31
tonality, my non verbals, my pacing, my leading, my
31:35
anchoring, the stories that I'm weaving.
31:38
If all of it begins to nudge people to that same conclusion,
31:44
then we're nudging people into that space.
31:48
But that's what I call the intersect or he calls the
31:50
intersection of unconscious meaning it's not just one thing
31:53
once that has the gets the job done, it's all of these things.
31:56
And in that sense, I think the nested loops are one more thing
32:01
that you can do to nudge that direction.
32:04
It's not that I've done that story and now they're in a
32:07
trance. I've done two stories and now
32:10
the job is done. And that's why this is both the
32:13
blessing and the curse of it, which is you can't just tell the
32:16
story. It's an open the loops and then
32:18
you're doing a lot of other stuff too.
32:20
But that's also why it's forgiving because if you don't
32:23
get the stories quite right or you don't close one down, it's
32:27
OK. There's enough other things
32:28
pointing at where you're going and the intention behind it that
32:31
I think you don't need to, you know, people can feel free to
32:34
experiment with it and build up their confidence, you know, with
32:39
it. And even if it's just as simple
32:41
as starting a session with a story for to induce curiosity
32:47
and then putting a little note in the back of your mind to
32:49
close it off at the end, that's a good way to start.
32:53
You don't have to go 17 levels deep at all at once, you could
32:56
just get really good at that. Practice doing one or two levels
33:00
and and and, and once you get comfortable with that, you can
33:03
add additional levels in there. And I think, I think the
33:06
mnemonics and the different context or, or kind of scenes,
33:11
if you look at it as a movie metaphor, are quite helpful when
33:14
you get beyond, let's say, kind of four or five levels so that
33:19
you actually kind of know where you are.
33:20
But there's this phrase that I use that just kind of helps to
33:24
close all the loops in case there are any kind of
33:28
incompleteness, unfinished business.
33:30
So the phrase that I use is, you know, as you start to
33:34
recalibrate with the here and the now, it dawns on you.
33:37
All of this is just thoughts within thoughts, ideas within
33:39
ideas, dreams within dreams. And you're now able to fully
33:43
return to the present. And that for me feels like a
33:46
little bit of a get out of jail free card that even if you know,
33:51
there was, you know, a puzzle somewhere that I forgot to kind
33:55
of reveal what's in the puzzle or, you know, future pacing
33:59
where they not quite, they're not quite seeing that
34:01
resourceful version of them and stuff closes it all anyway.
34:04
It's like a nice way to kind of end it all, I think.
34:07
It's really nice. Yeah, it's really nice.
34:08
I might nab that. Thank you very much.
34:10
It's a. Gift, gift for you.
34:11
There you go. And.
34:13
What, what would you say to to a hypnotherapist beyond, you know,
34:17
test it out with one level that is curious to learn more about
34:22
it because what, how I was taught nested loops felt very
34:25
complicated. It's kind of like you've got
34:27
story A open a loop, start story B, open a loop, start story C
34:32
and I'm like, this sounds sounds like fucking algebra.
34:34
Like it's, it's confusing. Like what would you say to make
34:38
it more more comfortable so I. Think the key to nested
34:42
communication is actually getting better at storytelling
34:45
and getting better at storytelling with a purpose.
34:48
And I think a good place to start is what states do you want
34:51
to elicit? So think about.
34:54
So for example, if you want to, as I gave the example, opening a
34:59
session with a story of, you know, that elicits curiosity.
35:03
I think the key for me, and it's really simple, the way I look at
35:06
it anyway, the way I use it is I don't just open a story, I open
35:11
a story and tell it to the point of maximum state elicitation.
35:17
So if you're going for curiosity, you know, you don't
35:19
go, oh, well, there was, you know, one time when something
35:23
happened and it was interesting. I'll tell you about that later.
35:27
You want to bring them on the journey and get to the point
35:29
where they're hanging on your every word and they want to know
35:32
the outcome and they're desperate and the tone and the
35:38
you know, have you ever had that thing where you just got a
35:40
little niggle and you're desperate to find out what it
35:42
was and finally, finally and what they said was and then we
35:49
go off on an urgent you, you, you really want build them.
35:52
Up make it, build it and it's stopping.
35:54
At the climax, it's stopping at the maximum, and you could do
35:56
that with frustration. Stories about the straw that
36:01
broke the camel's back. Have you ever had those moments?
36:05
But I would go through and map out and go right.
36:07
What states would be useful for me to be able to work within
36:11
sessions? Is it matching states of
36:14
frustration, resilience, confidence, calmness,
36:19
relaxation, curiosity? And then begin to build up 3 or
36:23
4 different stories of each of these states that you can and,
36:29
and know where the stop point is.
36:31
Where's the bit where you can go?
36:33
There's the climax right there. That's the bin, you know,
36:37
whether it's the moment where you know you're taking on
36:39
adversity and you have this moment where you go, I am not
36:42
standing for this anymore. Enough is enough.
36:45
And I, I turned to them and I was just filled with this sense
36:49
of like, unstoppable. I'm not going to stand for this
36:53
anymore. I'm going to take it.
36:56
And and then you break off. Yeah.
36:59
You know. So I would, for me, it's very
37:01
simple. I would get curious about I, I
37:03
would really sit down one afternoon and go right, what
37:07
states would be useful for me to create and what 3 or 4 examples
37:12
of stories from my own personal life where I connected with
37:17
these States and I can retell in a way that elicits and then just
37:20
figure out the break off point. And I think that distinction is
37:23
really important between telling a story that you connect with
37:28
and regurgitating a story, because there's lots of there's
37:31
lots of stories that could be relevant.
37:34
But there's a opening scene, I think in Reservoir Dogs where
37:40
the undercover cop is telling a story.
37:42
And the guy's like, were you in this urinal?
37:44
Was the person to your left or your right, you know, and what
37:48
was the smell? What was the color in the in the
37:50
room? And it's kind of like, you know,
37:52
this idea of there's a big difference between retelling a
37:57
memory and telling a story and the devil's in there in the
38:01
detail. And I think Quentin Tarantino
38:03
is, is very good at at those kind of things.
38:05
I don't know if you remember him in Pulp Fiction, but the Samuel
38:09
L Jackson character like opens up this briefcase and it's
38:11
glowing. You never ever know what's in
38:14
that briefcase. But great loop.
38:16
It's great loop, but it then enables every single person
38:20
watching. They get to decide, is it money?
38:23
Is it gold? Is it heroin?
38:24
What what? Whatever it is, they get to
38:26
decide what's in there because the story doesn't close the loop
38:29
for you. You get to kind of fill in the
38:31
blanks. And I think that's also what
38:33
works with metaphor and what works with kind of broad
38:35
suggestions and to some extent open loops because you know, you
38:40
can get them to that straw that breaks the camel's back, the
38:43
point of threshold. But it's going to be them that
38:46
kind of connects it to them and said, right, enough is enough.
38:49
I'm not, I'm not going to do this anymore.
38:51
They get to, they get to fill in the gaps.
38:53
Absolutely. And it reminds me, I was, I've
38:56
actually last week or two, a few weeks ago was at a marketing
38:59
conference called Ascon. As I sit here with my free
39:03
hoodie that they gave me as well.
39:06
And I one of the speakers they have was Stephen Bartlett.
39:09
He was interesting. He was interesting.
39:11
And he, he shared something called a phrase, which I think
39:14
I've known about for a long time, but I hadn't, I hadn't
39:17
labeled it that way. And it was a fascinating label.
39:20
It was he, he talked about things being linguistic
39:22
wallpaper. Linguistic wallpaper in the
39:26
sense that you often don't notice stuff because you get so
39:30
used to it you just, you know, it blurs out.
39:35
You stop paying. Attention.
39:36
It's background. Noise.
39:38
Whereas if you want something to stand out in someone's mind, you
39:42
can have something that isn't linguistic.
39:44
Wallpaper. A curious turn of phrase, like a
39:47
pattern. Interrupts.
39:48
Different pattern interrupts, absolutely.
39:50
So when you talked earlier about the dual encrusted, what was it?
39:55
The frame frame. Of a of a mirror.
39:58
Dual encrusted frame? Well, you didn't just say you
40:01
know a mirror. That that would be linguistic
40:04
wallpaper that wouldn't flag up either for you keeping track of
40:08
it or symbolically for them, the follower of it.
40:12
But dual encrusted framed mirror.
40:16
It's not linguistic wallpaper. It stands out as being
40:19
noticeable. And I think that's another thing
40:20
to kind of if you want to draw people in and your stories to be
40:24
noticed, you know, do some, what's the word English
40:31
literature, some write, read more, play around with creative
40:35
writing and. You think vocabulary isn't it?
40:38
And and also using adjectives that again, are very versatile
40:44
because when I mentioned like a child's slide, you know,
40:49
depending on the childhood and their part they used to go to
40:52
that slide could be entirely different for every single
40:55
person listening to that, that thing in a jewel encrusted, you
40:58
know, in my head, it's kind of it's gold with, you know, kind
41:02
of rubies and and emeralds. But to someone else it could be
41:05
diamonds and pearls like it could be anything to anyone but.
41:09
But you can also take these ideas of linguistic wallpaper,
41:11
and I mean, how many, how many NLPS have I heard saying make
41:15
the image smaller, make it smaller to the point at which if
41:20
someone's seen someone like that or you've said it a lot to
41:22
someone becomes background, it becomes background noise.
41:24
They no longer process. But but if you said to someone
41:27
imagine seeing it through a pair of binoculars the wrong way
41:30
round, like, ah, it's the same results that they're seeing it
41:35
smaller. Yeah, but it's a it's, it's just
41:38
tweaked. It's just a little bit different
41:40
and perhaps they remember it a little bit more.
41:42
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree with that.
41:45
It's, it's using, yeah, good storytelling and, and, and any
41:50
good storyteller will bring you in.
41:54
I think when you listen to a good story, you go into a trance
41:57
state. You kind of feel like you're in
42:00
the story and, and, and I would say that's, that's a level of
42:03
disassociation. You're, you're, you're kind of
42:05
in wherever they're taking you. And I think good comedians are
42:09
like that. Good storytellers are like that,
42:10
where you become a character in the story and you kind of
42:13
imagine how you would be in that, in that situation.
42:15
So that's a great tip for, you know, hypnotherapist wanting to
42:19
become better at nested loops is get get comfortable telling
42:21
stories and and. Comedians have been using nested
42:23
loops for years. They they don't call it nested
42:26
loops, they call it they, they go, we get a call back.
42:28
Yeah, we, we called back to a joke that we did previously that
42:32
you'd forgotten about, you know, and, and if you look, I know we
42:35
were talking before you went on live about the really good stuff
42:39
that we don't want to share. We.
42:42
We'll keep that a secret, maybe for a future episode.
42:44
Maybe for a future episode, of course, but but we were sort of
42:48
one of the things we were nudging towards was I've lost my
42:52
train of thought. That that train's already, it
42:56
was already down the platform. It was really.
42:58
Insightful as well it was. Incredible that that.
43:00
That one thing that just. Oh man.
43:03
We'll come back to it. We.
43:04
Will it'll, it'll come back eventually, one day.
43:06
One day. And I guess before we before we
43:09
wrap up, there'll be a lot of people curious will there?
43:13
There will be maybe curious about a particular loop that you
43:17
opened right at the beginning. I don't.
43:19
Know what you're accusing me of? Yeah, Well, it's funny actually,
43:22
because I remember after three months of trying to track this
43:26
guy down and find out why, just why did you have that?
43:31
He did. He had that moment where he
43:32
looked at me and went Nope. And walked out.
43:36
Finally, when I withheld my number and he picked up and I
43:38
just went, please don't hang up. It's Howard Cooper here.
43:42
You came to see me when I know who you are.
43:46
And I said, listen, I I'm not going to pester you anymore.
43:48
I've tried you a few times. He goes, I know.
43:51
And I said, listen, I, I just for my own Peace of Mind, please
43:54
tell me what what happened that day?
43:57
I just want to know. I need to sleep at night, you
43:59
know? And he said, well, what happened
44:03
was this, he said, I saw you. I was like, all right, this is
44:06
not going well. And he says, you reminded me
44:11
physically of someone who screwed me over 20 years ago.
44:14
So I knew I couldn't trust you. And that was it.
44:19
And I, but I thought that was hilarious as well, you know,
44:22
because one of the things that I, I really like to help people
44:25
see is that we're falling for illusions of thinking what a,
44:28
what a funny illusion, you know, and how often do people do that?
44:31
They they, I mean, look, there were lots of names that I
44:34
couldn't call my child fair because I, you know, my wife
44:39
says, oh, you know, what about Daniel?
44:40
And I'm like, no, you can't troll him, Daniel, because there
44:42
was a Daniel at my school. He pipped his nose.
44:44
You know, you have all of these associations and that's kind of
44:48
how things work. But yes, that was one of the
44:50
interesting learnings that I had, you know, and I didn't take
44:54
it personally and. What and what's interesting is
44:57
that you know your background, that was a reasonable reason for
45:01
you for, for the very reason that you couldn't call your kids
45:03
certain names. And once you you know, my, my
45:06
belief system is that people are reasonable when there when there
45:09
is a it doesn't even have to be a good reason, just a reason
45:12
that was enough to close the loop.
45:13
And you probably haven't thought about it much since then.
45:15
No, because that's it. The the loop is closed.
45:18
Yeah. It it was done, it was done.
45:22
I had a a a great loop done to me when.
45:25
When you attempted to open a loop for him to give him a taste
45:28
of of his own medicine, do you know?
45:29
What I was so relieved to finally.
45:31
Get I was. No longer thinking I was just in
45:34
that state of like the world makes sense again.
45:40
Yeah. If I'd have been slightly more
45:43
Machiavellian or quick thinking share, I say yeah.
45:46
Give a bit of I would. Have done that open loop.
45:48
Karma, OH. That would have been beautiful.
45:50
OK, so. If you had a time machine and
45:51
you went back to that same call, what do you say at the end to
45:55
open a loop for him that would have him annoyed for for years?
45:59
Well. Maybe just something.
46:01
Oh, I'm really such a relief to hear because I thought it was
46:03
something that actually I'd done in in fact, actually there was
46:10
something much more sinister than I imagined that was going
46:13
on for you, of which I actually had some proof for.
46:18
But yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that with me.
46:21
Thank you. You know, that, that that could
46:24
have been fun. You know, the the extra edition
46:27
of which I actually had proof of.
46:30
Yeah. What proof could he have had?
46:31
Not just a theory, but there was evidence he said he had.
46:34
Did he have evidence, you know, that that might have been
46:37
enjoyable? Yeah.
46:39
A cliffhanger. Yeah.
46:41
And and I guess to, to, to some extent one of the most popular
46:45
format, you've just gone to an ad conference, but a lot of
46:48
online content these days is click bait.
46:51
And and what is clickbait? If it isn't trying to engineer
46:54
an open loop, it's. An open loop and you know, I
46:57
mean, I'm talking at the UKHC, the UK hypnosis convention in
47:00
October, where November, sorry, where the my talk is
47:05
essentially. And I've, I've never done this
47:06
before, by the way, but I've, I've got quite a lot of
47:09
followers on TikTok and YouTube channel and stuff.
47:11
And I've been making short form content for a long time.
47:14
And there are certain things that I do to help create
47:16
engaging content. And I thought it would be fun to
47:20
put myself really through the the lions.
47:23
What's the word? Den there you.
47:25
Go the lions den. Yeah, I was going to get the
47:27
lions fire, but that's mixing metaphors.
47:29
Yeah, You know, and I'm pretty good at mixing metaphors, you
47:33
know, I mean, if you should certainly float your own trumpet
47:36
and blow your own boat. I agree.
47:38
Absolutely. But I'm going to essentially do
47:41
a live creation of a short form video, which I don't know what
47:48
it will be yet because I'm going to write it live based on some
47:51
suggestions from the audience of topics they want to see cover so
47:53
that people can track. How do I go about creating
47:56
engaging content? But one of the sneak preview,
47:58
one of the rules that I have is after you've written it and you
48:02
go back, you find the most dramatic bit, the most
48:05
incredible like piece that creates the intrigue and you cut
48:11
it out and you stick it at the front.
48:13
I've seen that a lot actually on on the short form content
48:15
because that's, that's the, to use a radio analogy, that would
48:19
be like the equivalent of playing 5 seconds of a song that
48:21
you really want to hear and saying coming up in the next
48:24
half an hour. It's kind of it gives them a
48:26
little bit of a taste. So yeah, the hook and then and
48:30
then the reveal to build back up to the same hook that they've
48:33
seen is and unfortunately. Most people don't do that.
48:35
Certainly when you start out creating social media content,
48:38
what I hear always, and this is the big mistake.
48:40
You hear the awkward silence instead of coming straight in
48:44
and the the. Hi, my name's Howard Cooper.
48:49
I've been helping people with anxiety and they're.
48:53
Already on. They're already on, you know,
48:55
whereas if my tip is going to go on to being like, you know, I
48:58
want to show you how to deal with those moments where people
49:01
say to you, you're a terrible human being and you feel really
49:04
judged. I'm I would reverse the whole
49:07
thing and start out with you're a terrible human being and I
49:10
feel really judged. Ever caught people saying that
49:13
to you and already now you've you've you've dive straight into
49:17
the meat and the veg? That that's that's fascinating
49:20
And and I think we're both at the UK hypnosis conference on
49:23
the same day. Yes, yeah, yeah, same day, same
49:26
stage. You're going to be talking about
49:27
short form content and how to kind of create that.
49:29
And ironically I'm going to be talking about nested loops.
49:33
Amazing. So we've, we've come full circle
49:36
as a, as a good nested loop does if people want to learn more
49:40
about you. And, and by the way, I'm going
49:42
to have a link to tickets for the UK hypnosis conference in
49:46
the, in the description. So if you, if you want to see
49:48
either me or Howard or both of us get tickets there.
49:52
But if someone was to learn more about you and and what you do
49:55
and, and or even see some of the TikTok content and short form
49:58
content, where can they find more?
50:00
OK, so they can follow me at at anxiety beating hacks on TikTok
50:05
and YouTube and Instagram, all the socials and people can find
50:10
more about me at rapid change dot works.
50:13
That's the website where it's all the stuff.
50:16
If people want to reach out to me, I do mentoring with people
50:19
in terms of better therapeutic work.
50:20
I have a process called the willingness ladder, which is a
50:24
really important process to me in terms of helping people
50:27
achieve acceptance. But for me, nested loops, artful
50:30
communication, it it's all the delivery package and I'm really
50:35
passionate about helping therapists refine their skills.
50:39
Fascinating stuff and if you're listening right now and you want
50:42
to get tickets for the UK Hypnosis Conference, which I
50:46
think it's in November, it's like mid November, isn't it?
50:48
I think so. Around that time there will also
50:50
be a discount code in the description so that you get a
50:53
better rate. Howard, great to have you on the
50:55
show again. Lovely.
50:56
To be here, really enjoy it. Thank you so much for having me.
51:01
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