Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / Ep 82: How to Bulk and Lose Fat to Maximize Muscle Gain and Get Ripped with Andy Morgan

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Ep 82: How to Bulk and Lose Fat to Maximize Muscle Gain and Get Ripped with Andy Morgan · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:00
  Andy Morgan: When you're new to lifting, you're gonna get a certain amount of muscle gain and fat loss. At the same time.
• 0:09
  Andy Morgan: However, the more advanced you get, the harder it is to achieve both at the same time to any measurable degree. And when it's very hard to measure something, it's very hard to manage for it.
• 0:21
  Andy Morgan: And then it's very hard to stay motivated.
• 0:26
  Philip Pape: Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable and well muscled force behind ripped body.com originally from the UK, but living in Tokyo, and he's carved out a very clear path in the crowded world of fitness.
• 1:10
  Philip Pape: And I've learned a ton from his books and online content, which is why I had to invite him on the show. Today you'll learn about Andy's experiences his no nonsense approach to fitness communication and his thoughts on training, muscle building and fat loss phases, and maybe some related topics like body fat percentage scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. And he will also share his insights on the fitness industry using data and principles to get results. Andy Morgan is a fitness coach, author and entrepreneur who has been helping people achieve their physique goals for over a decade. He works with busy working professional men who are recreational physique focus trainees, and he uses a simple but data driven effective approach with them. In addition to his website, ripped body.com.
• 1:52
  Philip Pape: He co authored the hugely popular muscle and strength pyramids, and wrote the diet adjustments manual for eliminating guesswork during cuts and books. What I really appreciated about his content is how he simplifies complex concepts, but uses data to back everything up while calling out the nonsense in the fitness industry with a healthy level of skepticism. Andy, it is a pleasure man to welcome you to the show.
• 2:16
  Andy Morgan: Felipe Thank you honored to be on and frankly, I would love to hire you to walk into every room 30 seconds before I walk into that room just to announce to people quite who is walking in. And I didn't realize how important and special I am. And now I do. And you know, I've got all those warm, fuzzy feels.
• 2:36
  Philip Pape: That's what I wanted. Man. I wanted that warm, fuzzy feeling with you to really break the ice. And it's funny because we talked we were talking about the the intros to the podcast beforehand. Some people read them live, some people record them and I learned years ago and trying to do speeches with people how important was to introduce them live. And so I like to carry that spirit into a podcast.
• 2:58
  Andy Morgan: Yeah, you make a good point, though. I am currently on a break from my pod, but I think it works super well. And I'm going to switch that style as well. Actually, there's a couple of things that I've picked up from listening to your podcast that Mike. Yeah, that really, really? Yes.
• 3:13
  Philip Pape: That's awesome, man.
• 3:14
  Unknown: It's good. It's good.
• 3:15
  Philip Pape: That's great. All right, because I'm telling people, man that I've kind of been idolizing you for a bit since I got into your work years ago. And I invited you on. I'm like, I gotta have Andy on.
• 3:22
  Philip Pape: That'd be awesome. And so that that makes me feel warm and fuzzy, by the way. So here we go. It's a love fest on the show. All right. So speaking of one of the things that appeals to me about you, and how you communicate is you get right to the point. And I think the first time I was exposed to your work was it used to be called The Last Read, right? And now it's the diet adjustments manual. I had an on Kindle or something back in the day. And I have no idea how to control my results.
• 3:48
  Philip Pape: And some of the stuff you broke down very simply do this. Here are the steps. Here's some stick figures that explain who you are. And here's some graphs that tell you how it works. People overcomplicate things all the time. Right. And that was refreshingly the opposite. So how did you get to this point and develop that unique style that you have?
• 4:13
  Andy Morgan: That's quite a tricky question. Ultimately, I've always been writing for myself. But at this point, my early 20s self it's the stuff that I wish I knew, written in a way that I that would have resonated with me. And now as I've gotten older, the the way that that would have resonated with me that language has changed slightly. But it's always been about trying to simplify and save myself from the, the vast, vast amounts of nonsense out there in the fitness industry. So I want people to stumble across the website and feel? Alone.
• 5:02
  Andy Morgan: Wonderful. Someone who's not just trying to trick me out of my money, someone who doesn't have a little supplements at the end, I'm not saying that all supplements are nonsense, but the vast majority are. And so if I was to start selling one, in all of a sudden, you're going to question my credibility for all of them. So they don't. And, you know, they can read the website, yes, they could purchase a book, if they want to get pretty much what is on the website, but with in a more organized fashion. And that would be worth their time and money. And a lot of people feel so bad. No, it's all free.
• 5:44
  Andy Morgan: All the results are here from different clients over the years. And then if these are the client results that I have, then obviously, they can imagine that it's probably 10x more readers, and they've had similar results.
• 5:54
  Andy Morgan: And then there's a very non in your face. Look, if you're interested in coaching, go here, this is what I do. So I've tried to make it all about helping myself back then not go through all of the crap that I went through, in my physique struggle to get where I am now. It's like, the mentor that I wish I had. That's kind of the approach that I've tried to take to it.
• 6:29
  Philip Pape: Okay, okay, which is probably at that, like, at the feeling when I go to your website, like this is just right there, like the information is there. There's nothing I have to wade through, and I have to go and click a million links. And I'll have to figure out what you're talking about. Probably the original book appealed to me to appeal to me that way, as well. And maybe it's why a lot of us do what we do, like with this podcast, you know, I went through years and years for decades of not knowing. And then it's like, I've learned from guys like Danny and others, like, it's just simple principles that you can apply, you know, lift heavy, you know, be consistently whatever they are. And I want to help people get that shortcut. So it sounds like you're doing that, as evidenced by the whitespace on your site and the clear information. So I love that.
• 7:10
  Philip Pape: Thank you. Well, we talked about evidence based fitness and nutrition science and research that some of that is where it can get very overwhelming even though it's great information and great work people are doing.
• 7:22
  Philip Pape: How does that reconcile with the idea of providing simple, simple, actionable advice? Like why should people trust you that you are telling them the truth, so to speak, because you're cutting all that other fluff out?
• 7:33
  Andy Morgan: Why should people trust me? That's a difficult question. May I come back to that? Yeah, sure. I think the key is a science communicator that I am, I consider myself to be a layer down from my co author, Eric Helms, who I know that you've had on as well as the co author on the muscle and strength pyramid books. He sits in between myself and the, the actual researchers, and yes, he's, he's done research himself, but generally, he's a science communicator, translating and explaining the latest studies, he's directly reading those himself, he and his colleagues, between them, they will read something like two 300. Maybe under doing it their per month, scouring as many relevant journals as there are out there, and then putting out the most relevant information for us who are chasing physique and a strength and body common goals. And so, I learned from that, as a fitness professional myself, anyone else who's not a fitness professional is welcome to learn from that.
• 8:52
  Andy Morgan: But often that content is a little too heavy for the average person to dig into. And so I write for the person I kind of serve as an intermediate layer.
• 9:06
  Andy Morgan: Writing for now, it's, you know, I'm gonna turn 40 This year, people my age, generally, they're married with kids, they're getting well on in their careers, they're usually doing really well there. They have given their, you know, they give it all to their career and to their family. They've ended up letting their physical health slip, and they're far from the prime that they had while they were in college. And they want to get that back but they just don't feel they have time or they felt that there. They feel guilty about giving time to it and when they have tried to give time to it. They just kind of got sucked in by different fad diets or pills, potions, false promises of the fitness industry, and they tend to often they tend to at some point, sadly He quit, because they just get ripped off with tricks so much and think this isn't allowed me a certain portion of those who are left they've kept on persevering. They come to my website, or those or your podcast or, you know, people like us, and they're like, Ah, okay, well, this is information that is simple enough for me to apply. It's just a, if this is your situation, Do this, do this, do this, do this, a little bit of, of course, contextual language here, you know, explaining for different circumstances, but it's very much a how to, rather than too much of a science done. And the way that I try to be a say a little different is I try to help people understand the principles of nutrition and training and body comp, which is mainly body comp, it's not so much on the powerlifting strength side, although they kind of go hand in hand, as as you know, I try to help people to understand the frameworks that go behind the decisions that they can make, so that they're then free to make those decisions themselves. And they understand why a certain decision is the right decision for them at that time. So what do I mean by that, I'll give one quick example of a framework.
• 11:34
  Andy Morgan: And then one example of how to apply a framework might be the nutrition pyramid, that Eric popularized, I think, in a 2013 video on YouTube, talking about how adherence is obviously the foundational layer of the pyramid. And then as you ascend up the pyramid, the things get less and less important. So after adherence, you know, sticking to what you can actually do, then we've got calorie balance, then we've got macronutrient, intake, then micronutrients and water. After that, and nutrient timing, this is your meal timing. And then after that supplements. So this is a framework for thinking of the pyramid of importance. So if you're thinking about what supplements you should be taking, but ignoring calorie balance, well, this is getting this is putting the cart before the horse, this is getting things out of order, and you're unlikely to get to where you want to go. Now, given that this is the pyramid of importance, at certain phases, at certain points in our life, we may decide to try to implement all layers of this pyramid in a in as rigorous and as optimal, quote, unquote, optimal way as possible. However, there will come times, let's say you get married, have kids have a really busy time at work, where you are just totally unable to then have the perfect, perfectly spaced for meals with your optimal morning training session, after you're perfectly timed one hour before protein shake, because otherwise you'd be training fasted. And, you know, you have to then know, okay, how far can I simplify things, given my situation, without really compromising my results, or by compromising my results by the minimal amount? Because when people don't know that, they get themselves into this? All or nothing mentality, which is the key thing that I tried to get clients to avoid. So I've been coaching now for over 12 years.
• 13:58
  Andy Morgan: If I see a client, who is able to do what they can when they can, but except when they fall short, but still do what they can not just like be like, they, they have the effort mentality.
• 14:13
  Andy Morgan: I don't know what your policy is on swearing here, but they're like, I can't do this. So I'm not going to do any of it. This is a breakfast buffet, my family want to eat this breakfast buffet while I'm away. Normally, I don't eat breakfast. So how I'm just going to enjoy this vacation and have my breakfast and I have all of the ice creams and you know, they're just everything goes to hell. If they can, if they understand where they can make compromises, or make simplifications without really compromising their results, then that gives people freedom. And that's what I want.
• 14:49
  Andy Morgan: Yeah.
• 14:52
  Philip Pape: I think you explain that very well, from the context of having the framework because adherents are consistency we use works like that. And people do conflate that with always on the game, always doing what you have to do every day. And as soon as you mess up, it goes off the rails. So I like how you spoke to your audience, which is also a lot of my audience, and it's me, technically, people who are around 40, I'm 42. This evening on that much time, let's get real, like, this is reality, right? You're not going to, like you said, you're not gonna work out at 5am Every day, have your carbon protein before and after, you know, have exactly everything, everything lined up.
• 15:31
  Philip Pape: So I like that. So you were you work with physique, focused men who are already lifting? So there's sort of a premise that they have some level of understanding or education about that it's coming in working with, which is good, right?
• 15:45
  Philip Pape: That's like your carving, you know, who, where do you need to be first before I work with you.
• 15:48
  Philip Pape: So I actually want to focus just on the left side of that point, just for a second, because on your site, you say, Hey, you can get a personal trainer, you know, I don't work with people directly in person, it's an online thing you have to be lifting. Do you have advice for people who want to seriously lift, they're lacking the information, and what kind of programming resources should they follow to get to that point where you can help them.
• 16:12
  Andy Morgan: So I would like to think that those people could come to my website, read it, implement it, and know exactly what to do it the coaching, the coaching is for a more specific niche. And part of that is marketing. And part of that is, because that's what I'm good at, because that's what we are good at, but written body. But they're kind of feed fed themselves over time. And it's become a self fulfilling thing.
• 16:47
  Andy Morgan: So as I've niche down further and further, so it's like only people who lift only people, only men, only men who are over this age, only people who agreed to not use their phones, When emailing because we do everything over email. And people come in constant when they using their phones with email. It's just kind of become, we've got better and better and better at this niche, and worse at everything else. But the website, I like to think of it as you know, day to day when I'm introduced to people, and I want to be able to say to them, oh yeah, just go to the website.
• 17:25
  Andy Morgan: And know that they can be, they can get what they need from that. So there's some simple programs on there, we've actually got the programs and the muscle and strength pyramids on there, we've got a few others for free as well. We've got some simple nutrition guidelines on there. We've got an guides for form, we've developed some myself actually on, I have a Japanese website as well. And with the Japanese team, we, we developed a product for how to bench squat and deadlift. But I've got some free guides on the website. That's our comm slash squat, slash deadlift, slash bench. And then those are all free. Eric Helms and his team at 3d muscle journey, they've got a great resources, they've got something called their lifting library, which will teach you the form of pretty much all of the lifts that you'll find in the gym and how to execute them properly. Which seems obvious, but it can, it's something worth revisiting, let's say every, if you're new, say every couple of months, and then after that, maybe every year or so. Because you can forget. But I've also got resources section, so rubberduck COMM slash resources, and you can see my recommended resources, and then where for readers, and then also where I learned from. So yeah, I Yeah, that's what I'd recommend. And the reason I say that I say my own stuff, and you know, I've kind of poured my heart and soul into that. So it's not necessarily an actual thing I can say, Yeah, okay, my stuff. I can vouch for that. And then, you know, there's so much other stuff that I could say, but you know, when you give them a let's get an option,
• 19:17
  Philip Pape: yeah, no, that's good. And I think in like one of my very first episodes on this podcast, I'm sure I mentioned, among a very few select resources, one of them mean like starting strength and some stuff by Greg knuckles. And I think I mentioned you're, like 42 video, lifting guide or whatever it is 42 Whatever it is, something like that, right? Because I do think it's important that people you know, start from where they're at, but if they know when it gets to a certain point, and take advantage of these other resources, they have to have these prerequisites in place. It's kind of like when people talk about just wanting to lose weight or lose fat like Well, are you training it? No.
• 19:48
  Philip Pape: What does it have to do with losing family? Well, there's a big connection between, you know, body composition and and training. So I think that's important. Going back real quick to the requirements you have one of those is that people eat meat? Is that also just from the natural process of niching?
• 20:03
  Philip Pape: Down? Or is that a more specific thing because of the challenges of working with vegans or vegetarians, like on the protein side.
• 20:10
  Andy Morgan: So this is gonna sound like a weird one. But there was a time that I can basically remove it now. I would say, when it's vegan, things get more complicated. Although someone's vegetarian, it doesn't really matter. There was a time when I thought that it was a big deal. But it doesn't seem so anymore. whether someone's protein sources going to be animal versus plant based, as long as they're eating a sufficient amount of protein in total, then pretty much good.
• 20:50
  Andy Morgan: All the research seems to show that they're pretty much good.
• 20:52
  Andy Morgan: So yeah, I could, I could take that way.
• 20:55
  Philip Pape: There you go, man.
• 20:55
  Philip Pape: So update update the say, No, that's got us wondering, because I've been interviewing guys and talking a lot about plant, just talk to Eric Trexler, too, because he's all plant based, and just really trying to understand that topic. And you're right, the more and more we find out, it is simple against simple principles of just getting enough protein is the big part of the pyramid.
• 21:17
  Philip Pape: Right? The other stuff is it is gravy as icing, if it's even necessary for other things like nutrients or hard health or whatever. Cool.
• 21:26
  Andy Morgan: So it's yeah, it's when you know, like the the kind of when you can peek behind the matrix and look at these, you know, the different? How can I say you've got the different mental maps, you've got the different layers, the principles here, you can kind of see, okay, fat loss, what is that, in the simplest times, okay, you want to have a calorie deficit, which means that you're burning more than you are taking in, whether that's liquid sort of solid drinks or food. And so then, if you were to have roughly, in fact, I'm not even going to go that deep, I'm not even going to talk about the number of calories. So burn more than you take in, and then tell your body to hang on to muscle mass, the next most important thing is to tell it to hang on to muscle mass with strength training, some form of hard resistance training, that's hard enough to tell it that that muscle that you have is important. And the more training experience you have, the harder you're going to need, the newer you are, the less you'll need. And then the next layer on that is going to be eating a sufficient amount of protein getting enough protein in the day in total. And then the spacing of that protein, the spacing of those calories and where those calories are coming from. Otherwise, that's all much much, much lower down on the pyramid of import of sorry, much higher up on the pyramid of importance. It means Yeah, so much smaller, much, much less important. Sorry, the one thing I needed to mention there in terms of calories is losing weight at an appropriate rate.
• 23:08
  Andy Morgan: So this isn't two ways, that's what you can sustain. And then that it's at an appropriate rate for your current level of body fat. So if you are carrying a lot of body fat, you can get away with faster rates of weight loss than someone who's say sub 10% body fat and going to be stepping on a bodybuilding stage in a couple of months. For those people, they need to be very, very careful about their rate of body fat. So something between point five and 1%. The sweet spot tends to be point seven, five for average folks, and then maybe about point 5%. For those who are, you know, getting very, very lean, and then you can nudge up and down from there.
• 23:58
  Andy Morgan: Based on your mood, energy levels, how your sleep is going hunger, etc. Yeah.
• 24:06
  Philip Pape: And that's where you start to get into the little extra corner cases that people ask all the questions about right like, but what about me with this, you know, what about this? But it still comes down to principles. So I like the idea, just starting from the basics.
• 24:18
  Philip Pape: And then if you got those down, because if not, let's not even worry about the rest just yet.
• 24:24
  Philip Pape: But before we get to fatloss one question I wanted to pick your brain on because I I'm not sure I've seen the most clear answer on why this is the case. But when we talk about muscle building, and one concept I learned from you early on was stay in that muscle building phase for like 567 months, you know, a decent amount of time.
• 24:40
  Philip Pape: Don't do it for only three months. But break it down for this. Why is why is it important physiologically, maybe it's neuromuscular? Maybe it's hormone something when you build for six instead of three months?
• 24:54
  Andy Morgan: Sure, so I'm not I'm not good at the science.
• 24:58
  Unknown: Okay. The same way that however you want to explain it, I'm Derrick Alex's privato, folders, etc. But
• 25:06
  Andy Morgan: the in broad times, when you, if we back up for a second, when you're new to lifting, you're gonna get a certain amount of muscle gain and fat loss. At the same time.
• 25:22
  Andy Morgan: However, the more advanced you get, the harder it is to achieve both at the same time to any measurable degree. And when it's very hard to measure something, it's very hard to manage for it.
• 25:33
  Andy Morgan: And then it's very hard to stay motivated. And so you need to then choose between phases of fat loss and phases of weight gain with the goal of mainly muscle gain, or rather with the goal of muscle gain, which is unfortunately going to attain some fat regain. But that's just how it is. Now, in many cases, that's going to be obvious.
• 26:00
  Andy Morgan: People know whether they need to lean at football cup. And there are some cases where it's not.
• 26:10
  Andy Morgan: And I've kind of written a nice call about that. If you just go to rip out comm slash cut hyphen, or hyphen, bulk, I've tried to keep all the URLs as obvious as possible.
• 26:21
  Philip Pape: That's a listener actually, that's a go to for sure.
• 26:24
  Andy Morgan: Thank you, thank you, this cut hyphen or hyphen book, I've tried to keep them simple. So people can just type guests as they type things in.
• 26:31
  Andy Morgan: And then if it doesn't come up, then there's a search box, and it'll come up. So then, so then what you need to know is that Celeste, you're cycling between cut and bulk phases. But when you end the cut and transition into a bulk your body, there are some hormonal changes that take place when we cut, and there are some hormonal changes that happen, kind of reverse. And also some new ones that happen as we move into a calorie surplus. But there's a lag on the timing there. And because there's a lag on the timing there, you can't just switch from a cut to a bulk, do that for three months, and then switch straight back into a cut and think that you are having three months of pure, highly optimized muscle gain period, because your body just isn't in a state where it's charged to be gaining muscle just yet, it can take a few weeks. And so and potentially longer depending on how lean you got and how long your previous cut was. And so that's one thing. That's one reason why you want to have longer booking periods than just say a short three months. The second is, muscle gain is exceptionally slow. Let's say you're an you're an intermediate lifter, you're gaining point seven 5%. Which would be good actually, point seven 5% of your bodyweight as muscle mass per month, let's say that you could do that, that might be about a pound of muscle per month. If you were to gain in the two months, you have left there, two pounds of muscle when you cut down again, because you're going to have to cut the fat off that you've gained, are you going to actually be able to notice that difference? Probably not right.
• 28:45
  Andy Morgan: And then it's going to be very difficult to feel that you've that that time that you've spent has been worth it. And so then that's going to be it's going to have a big chip on your motivation. So you need to spend longer enough that you have that you give your body enough time to accrue enough muscle mass so that once you've cut back down again, and you've revealed all that muscle mass after you've taken that cumulative fat gain off, you're looking at enough of a difference where you're like, yes, I've done it. Yeah, you know, like
• 29:26
  Philip Pape: Eddie ripped off like it was Superman. Like, you know, he just ripped off the shirt. Yeah.
• 29:31
  Andy Morgan: I wasn't quite sure. But I'll take it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I feel that this was absolutely worth it. So you might say cut for. I don't depending on how much body fat you have. It could be three months, it could be six months, and then you're going to move into a bulk phase. And let's say you bulk for only like four or five months. And then you cut the fat off again. It potentially could take you just a couple of months. But let's say you dig around a bit and it takes you three and a half months because you struggle to get Get back into it. Or then now you've spent in that bulk and then cut, you've spent like eight and a half months, and you've got maybe four pounds of muscle to show for it. And you can't really tell because muscle muscle and muscle mass is a really tricky thing. Yeah, you you it benefits you to have longer bulk phases. Yeah. And then I like that. Yeah, go ahead. No. And then the trick, of course, or the part where people get themselves in a mess, is that they, they don't get lean enough, before they balk.
• 30:35
  Andy Morgan: And so they end their bulking phases, or gaining phases of bulk is a scary word for you.
• 30:44
  Andy Morgan: They end their gaining phases too early, because they start feeling too fat. And then, of course, they end up in that problem that I just said, where they don't feel that they've actually made a meaningful difference. So very often.
• 30:58
  Andy Morgan: Rather, one good way of thinking of it is that the, the bulkhead phase should be spent at the extremes. At the point where you're failing on the bulk end, the end of the bulk end, slightly too fluffy. And on that end of the cut phase, slightly too lean for your comfort. And you try to just navigate between kind of in waves, and between those two levels. So the never feeling so uncomfortable that you want to that you want or need to stop.
• 31:37
  Philip Pape: So much of what you said is psychological, right?
• 31:39
  Philip Pape: Let's just be honest, like the only the first point was related to this lag of hormones getting out of metabolic adaptation, recovering, and moving past that, but the rest of it is so important. And I can attest to the. And I'm still figuring it out. Because I've only been doing this for like three, four years myself. And it's like, when I get lean, I'm like, am I lean enough? You know, how is this good, I can see the six pack, but like not enough, maybe it should I just but then at the same time, and you didn't mention this benefit is I want to be eating a lot of food most of the year, like let's just be honest, I want to be in a bowl for most of the year. And that's one benefit. I tell people to just do you want to be dieting all the time, like you have in the past and then struggling or just like three to one four to one ratio of being in a surplus.
• 32:23
  Philip Pape: But the point about not being lean enough, is good, because you I think you talked about in some of your content, like if you first have a lot of weight to lose, you're gonna get that off, and you can get down to certain point in your in this range. Now, where's that range for you? Right? Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode.
• 33:00
  Philip Pape: And before we get there, the muscle building rate of gain. So the evidence says hey point one 2.25% of your body weight per week, which always seemed pretty tight and precise to get to. And I know we both use macro factor now that kind of helps. But I've seen you recommend higher than that for like newer lifters.
• 33:19
  Philip Pape: Right like point 4% is something like a one and a quarter one and a half pound a month something or for Yeah,
• 33:26
  Andy Morgan: I don't actually think in terms of weeks. I'm having a making me do my
• 33:31
  Philip Pape: point. Florida 1% A month there. Yeah, point 41%.
• 33:35
  Philip Pape: What is your recommended rate again, based on training age?
• 33:37
  Philip Pape: Let's just put it that way.
• 33:38
  Andy Morgan: Yeah, sure. So. So I work with guys. Most guys, by the time they come to a bulking phase, they're going to be somewhere between 140 and two underpants, depending on how tall they are. Alright, and their level of training experience, right? Say 130, sorry, it could be lower.
• 34:02
  Andy Morgan: Actually, obviously, depending on height, of course, you take the extremes of the height range here and the extremes of the level of lifting experience. And there are going to be outliers here. But let's say somewhere between 140 and 200 pounds.
• 34:16
  Andy Morgan: Practically, then, what that means is that the the rate of gain that I would recommend is typically somewhere between two and three pounds per month. And this is because I don't tend to work with really really advanced lifters and I don't tend to work with the completely new people.
• 34:35
  Andy Morgan: And that two to three pounds a month. This is something that is measurable and therefore manageable and something that people can stay motivated for.
• 34:51
  Andy Morgan: Anything less than, say two pounds a month or point five pounds per week is going to be very hard to measure because of course of the fluctuations in it. In weight from water got got content and glycogen changes, even if you are taking daily averages. And so what does that work out to? about somewhere between one and 1.5% of body weight, so sorry, somewhere between one and 2% of their body weight. And part of that is, you'll notice a difference there. You've got point four 1%, you said per month, right? And I'm talking about, well, somewhere between one and 2% per month, which is double. And that's purposeful, because I'm acknowledging that some of the weight that you're going to gain is going to be fat. And if you are to set your rate of weight gain at the maximum muscular potential, or that sorry, at the likely rate of muscle gain, if you do everything right. Well, I've never seen anyone only gain muscle. So we may as well set our calorie surplus higher, so that we've got enough of a buffer there to maximize our potential muscle gain at that time. So if you were to only try and gain a pound per month, and let's say that you could measure and manage for that, and technically, yes, you should be gaining a pound of muscle, well, you're probably only going to get half a pound of muscle and half a pound of fat anyway. So just bank on the fact that you're gonna get half man, half fat. If you do everything, right, or the best case half of its going to be fat anyway. And, and and plan for that, and accept that. Now, the thing to say to yourself is like, Look just before, you know, you're saying, Am I lean enough. But one way of thinking about this, if you are in that range of what I just said, and you can maybe take a third off of this if you're smaller, or you're female. Once you're at the point where you think you can bulk, ask yourself over the next six to seven months, if I were to gain 10 pounds of body fat, and 20 to 25 pounds overall. Would I be okay with that? And if the answer's no, you may need to get leaner. And of course, you need to modify those numbers down if you are a smaller person. But for the guys I work with that works out it's a fair heuristic.
• 37:41
  Andy Morgan: And for some of them, they would not feel comfortable, they can just look back at their photos, you know, previously, or their measurements. And they know so then they know they need to get leaner, and if they feel that they can, because their hunger fatigue levels of manageable and their training is still going well enough. And the performance is still okay. Then, yeah, then they'll continue with that. And then last thing, and then I'll shut up. The reason I say 25 pounds, even I said 10 pounds of fat. And we're talking about a theoretical one on one. So the reason I said 25 Or not 20 pounds that because we're going to have anywhere from like, two to five pounds of water, gut content and glycogen regain after to overshoot the finish the cut? Yeah, exactly.
• 38:31
  Philip Pape: I love it, man. So this is again, where it's like decision points. It's decision trees, at least the engineer in me enjoys that. Like if this this if this this. If you're good gaining 25 pounds and 10 of that is fat. Then go then you're lean enough, right? So I'm going to my friend Carl, I hope he's listening. Actually, the episode with him just came out today and he's bulking and I think he can push him more. So listen to this, listen to this that I hear my man. And I might change my rate again and macro factor myself who knows? We'll see.
• 39:00
  Philip Pape: Really push it. So body fat percentage is another aspect of this, right? Because you talk a lot about using photos which is which which is I'll say objective like we call it subjective. But in reality, it's something you can see change over time. I mean, that's my opinion. You also talk about using the Navy calculator, which I found is pretty good for trends. You know. My question is should we care about body fat percentage really like the number should we care? And if so, why are most methods pretty much horribly inaccurate? And photos still the way to go? Is that your recommendation?
• 39:35
  Andy Morgan: So I listened to your buddy Carl, listen to the episode. Parts of it anyway. And so I disagree with him on on this one. Because he mentioned who we got, you know,
• 39:52
  Philip Pape: I don't like to I don't call out. Yes, you know, no,
• 39:55
  Andy Morgan: no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not knocking someone.
• 39:58
  Andy Morgan: One of the pitfalls of Using a body fat percentage measurement device,
• 40:03
  Philip Pape: or the Rambler device? Oh, yeah, I gotta call them out on that, I hear what you're saying,
• 40:08
  Andy Morgan: I assume so bioelectrical impedance analysis, I assume it was most of these home devices aren't, it's something where you step onto a scale, they've got some metal plates, it sends an electric current through your body. And it's not actually measuring body fat percentage, it's measuring the resistance of current, it's then the sorry, the impedance. And then, based on some clever equations, it's then estimating your fat free mass, and then based on your scale weights, and coming up with a number for an estimation of your body fat, unfortunately, hydration status, have glycogen status, which is how many carbs we've eaten recently, and therefore, how have full muscles are, how full our guts are, with food, which is going to change not just whether we've just pooped, or a lot, or a little, but also the types of foods that we've had. Because we don't eat, what most people don't eat the same thing every day. And so you're going to have fluctuations in these readings.
• 41:15
  Andy Morgan: And so the problem is, not only are these machines that we have access to, not only are they inaccurate, but they aren't necessarily consistent with their readings either. And so you can be 2% down one day, 2% up in two weeks time, despite feeling and seeing that your shorts are physically looser, it can tell you that you're you've gained a couple of percentage points of body fat, and because people tend to look at, but of course, cow is a product, he knows. He knows that that is impossible, and he knows that it must be an erroneous reading.
• 41:59
  Andy Morgan: But the vast majority of people don't. They have an idea that gut says, we'll ship that's not right. But they're like, No, there's a number on this expensive machine that I paid for. And all the marketing says is amazing. And therefore I have definitely lost muscle and gain fat is what they told themselves. And then they get themselves into this mental spiral. And maybe they click and it's really sad. And so I never use any of these devices for clients. I don't even recommend they go for Dexter's DEXA scan, it's, it's expensive, it's a little better. Where these devices are useful is in assessing group averages, which is essential for research. And but for the individual, I recommend that we don't use them, I recommend taking weight, taking your weight each day and averaging it. And noting that at the end of the week, and then noting that across the week's macro factor, we'll do that for you. Which I know you're a fan of. And but you can just literally just write that down in a notebook. It's a math isn't hard, or a
• 43:16
  Philip Pape: nerd out on this and people know It's 20 day exponential moving average. So put that in Excel. You're good to go. Yeah, it's that easy, right? Yeah. Yeah, you
• 43:28
  Unknown: could do it in your head.
• 43:30
  Andy Morgan: And then lost my train of thought dammit. Put me up, put me up
• 43:36
  Philip Pape: about using the photos. You were saying? Yeah, you could use a weight scale recommend other measures? Yep.
• 43:42
  Andy Morgan: Yeah. So scale away. Note the averages if you want to do all in your head. In fact, this is how I do it with clients. I don't use a moving average. I just have a look at the the averages across the weeks. And then I know what their adherence to their diets works. They know that in the spreadsheet as well. It's a percentage of their total calorie targets for the week. So if they go, say Timpson over, then they'll write 110% If they were 5%, under the under eight that week, it'll be 95%. So I can see that. And then I've got kind of a report telling me like any occasions where they went off their diet, and they maybe they had a birthday party or whatever. So now I know that timing compared with the numbers to then I know we're likely to be a bit bloated on that day.
• 44:28
  Andy Morgan: I'll then have them with their body measurements. I get people to do it in nine places. So their limbs, their. Their limbs when flexed their chest back measurement and their waist and three places on the stomach. So at the navel and then three finger widths above the navel, and then three, three finger widths below the navel and that's because fat loss tends to come top down, and isn't, doesn't come from everywhere at the same time. And so with those two things you can, with that combination of things you can capture how your progress is going with the photos, that's a good idea. I do get clients to take them every month, you could take them more often than that, but I wouldn't base any decisions on what you see in the photos more often than that data is really where I put the, I put the emphasis on when making decisions. And that's just because you know, photos, even with the same lighting, and the same time of day, it, it's, it's a bit subjective, and our mind can play tricks on us. We may be slightly more pumped up from particularly good session, or maybe you had a few more carbs and therefore muscles are for us, I really like to use those scale weight averages.
• 45:54
  Andy Morgan: measurement points along with the nutrition adherence when assessing these things, for sure,
• 46:03
  Philip Pape: yeah, the more of this data you have, and it's not once you get in the routine, it's not that complicated to make it just part of your habit.
• 46:08
  Philip Pape: Those key data points all come together, if anyone is missing, you're kind of missing that piece of the puzzle, right? If if, you know, if a client if their weight is not moving, well, is it really a plateau? Or would their body measurement show their waist going down? And they're, you know, going through body? recomp? Things like that.
• 46:25
  Philip Pape: Right? Um, you talked to one of your reels you, you talked about skill? Wait, sorry, did you want to say something? Yeah, it
• 46:32
  Andy Morgan: was just, I didn't answer your question. Forgive me for that. I'm sorry. Good. So so before we we come back to that, you asked me like, do I recommend is it important that people know their body fat percentage, right? Not really, I think it's most important that directionally, they are, they know whether they're making progress towards their goal. But then, you know, you can give descriptions around whether someone should bulk or cut. And as part of those descriptions that can be useful to give people an idea of what they might look like, when they're considering bulking when they should consider cutting. And so for that reason, I've got an article, I'll just call it my body fat guide, is body fat percentage pictures, compare your body fat level, so report.com/body-fat-guide. And then I've got a collection of what seven to 9% looks like, what 10 To 11% Looks like what 12 To 14% Looks like 15 17% looks like? It's all men, unfortunately, because these are all client photos over the years. But I've got, I think there are something like 50 photos in here of clients. So you can see what it's going to look like on different people at different heights, right at different body fat percentages.
• 47:58
  Andy Morgan: So then you can compare and get an idea for yourself. And I should caveat, this is all based on my eye. So I'm just kind of giving you an idea of what I think this is like, but hopefully that's helpful when you pair it with like the should I cuddlebug guide and that kind of thing showed in terms of assessing your progress? No, absolutely don't need to know it. And yeah, I just think it's a it's a it's a game that's gonna, that you can't win, and it's gonna lead to heartache.
• 48:29
  Philip Pape: It's true. All right, yeah. And those physique photos are helpful, especially when you have people of different body types at the same body fat percentage can look different. And so you kind of find, you know, where's my body typing there, and then you realize how delusional you are about your body.
• 48:45
  Andy Morgan: Essentially, like that there's a the golden rule is, you are fatter than you think. And when you finish your first cut, you will be you will have less muscle mass than you thought. Sorry, it's haven't met a single person ever, ever.
• 49:03
  Andy Morgan: breaks those those rules.
• 49:05
  Philip Pape: So when you are in a cut, then let's let's get segue to this. There's conflicting information about certain things in a fat loss phase, like how to train right?
• 49:15
  Philip Pape: People think everything has to change in a fat loss phase dramatically. How to Train, how do I use cardio? You know, people get complicated with nonlinear dieting strategies.
• 49:23
  Philip Pape: I'm actually doing a training on refeed days. So I understand like, that's one of those things, you know, most people don't need them, but some people will. What are some, I guess, questions or misconceptions that come up for you often during fat loss that people could really benefit? hearing your perspective on? It could be hunger, it could be psychological stress, whatever, whatever comes
• 49:41
  Andy Morgan: to mind. Well so people talk a lot of shit on the internet, and in podcasts, and surprise price, right? And so then the questions that I get Ah, highly varied. So instead of answering your question, okay.
• 50:05
  Andy Morgan: I'm instead going to change this as, what do I recommend? That someone does? That'd be alright.
• 50:15
  Andy Morgan: Sure, go for it, please. Okay, so
• 50:19
  Unknown: plasma chain, remind me that the question again,
• 50:23
  Philip Pape: fat loss during a fat loss phase, just what do you do? Because I was asking about training, cardio
• 50:29
  Andy Morgan: training. Yeah. So how should someone think about training? Well, you have fewer calories coming in, so your body has far less potential to create muscle. While you are now in this calorie deficit is compromised your you risk going into a recovery deficit. So you can keep your training program that you used when you are bulking. But you need to be mindful that as you progress into your cut, you may start to feel unusually high levels of soreness, your joints may start to get crankier than normal, you may start to Well, you probably will start to plateau, and then potentially regress with your lifts. And when any one of those things happen, you could consider just tapering back the training volume a little. Now you can do this on an individual lift basis. Or you could do this globally, I think you should consider a mix of both of these.
• 51:45
  Andy Morgan: So let's say that you've worked up to five sets of bench twice a week, when you're bulking and that was working really well.
• 51:58
  Andy Morgan: But as you are cutting, you're now find yourself struggling, or you find that your shoulders have started to get cranky, even though you haven't changed your form at all, you might consider for that exercise to reduce the number of sets that you do to four per session, so eight per week. Again, this is just an example. And then that the crankiness might resolve and you may be able to maintain your strength better there. Now, let's say that you start to feel really tired, is getting a drag getting out of bed, you're kind of dreading going to the gym, you're sore everywhere. Well, in that case, you might consider just globally reducing volume everywhere. Not necessarily everywhere, everywhere, but you might consider lopping off a set or two per movement per week.
• 52:52
  Andy Morgan: Actually, let's, let's make it even simpler, you may consider slashing one set from each of your exercises, barring perhaps for isolation work. So your main compound movements in each session, that will just be one very simple way of going about it. This is the basis of how I tend to think about these things. The training program itself does not need to radically change from a cut to a bulk phase, because what your body needs hasn't really changed, you need to tell it to hold on to that muscle mass. And that signal to hold on to the muscle mass, when you're in a calorie surplus is the same signal to grow. It's just the what you're fueling your body with the amount is different, so it can't. And then when it comes to cardio, I would just say that is one way of addressing calorie balance. It tends to be a fairly inefficient method for doing so.
• 54:01
  Andy Morgan: And yeah, it's it's something that should be used sparingly, because it's much easier to control your math than it is to.
• 54:11
  Andy Morgan: It's much easier to not have the 400 Calorie Frappuccino than it is to spend 50 minutes running for the equivalent energy button, if you're lucky, might be more than that. So while you can add cardio in, do it sparingly. And one thing I know that you're a fan of this as well, I believe you're a fan of this as well. It's just keeping up a minimum step count if you can, as you cut just so that your overall energy expenditure is kind of maintained. Because when we are in a calorie deficit, you know, we're in an energy deficit. We tend to get lazier, we're not necess already aware of it as step counts can plummet, and then that can make us forces to reduce food even further and further. So by purposefully keeping your step count up, it can really help make the diet more manageable because you're able to continue to eat more as a diet progresses.
• 55:19
  Philip Pape: Yeah, for sure. I mean, some people don't realize how, how much of an impact that can have. And it happens pretty quickly, at least I've seen with some clients how just updated up in that sub panel within a week you start to see a response.
• 55:31
  Philip Pape: Okay, do you have a hard stop?
• 55:31
  Philip Pape: Because I know we're Time flew, this is a good conversation where it's been an hour. So maybe just one more question or two? Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you, what are you most proud of in your coaching career?
• 55:47
  Andy Morgan: Hmm. So I get pride, pride is a tricky one. I like to think that the website is a good thing. It is in I'm proud of the website. Because there are many ways that I could have sold out to have many millions of dollars in the bank.
• 56:20
  Andy Morgan: But I chose not to. Because I wanted to do a good thing. And that's important to me, I want people to stumble across it.
• 56:32
  Andy Morgan: And, you know, just feel grateful for it. And to be one of the voices in the industry that you know, one of the few people in our corner the industry that's, you know, really doing right by people.
• 56:50
  Andy Morgan: Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people that are good in this industry is just that the the charlatans, the bad ones, they tend to stick out, right, just because of how the algorithms work. So I think if I think about my career generally, is probably just the website and putting, trying to put out good quality information and not cluttering it up. And then the, the impact that that has, because what you know, while I'm sleeping, fat is positively impacting many people's lives and continues to do so. So it's not really about who I've worked with, or what I've done while working with people. It's about what the website is able to do.
• 57:39
  Andy Morgan: And then there's a process of that a small percentage of people decide to click the coaching page, read through, decide that it's for them, and then how to start a conversation and maybe hire me. And it's been a pleasure and honor to work with so many people. So it's all of that combined. Really.
• 58:00
  Philip Pape: I love that answer, right? Because the web, if you just said the website, right?
• 58:02
  Philip Pape: People want to know more because that it's just this thing out there that you've built, right, but reminds me of a science fiction book I read years ago where humanity was going to collapse. And they had to figure out how to how to encode all of our knowledge. And they'd like what's the one medium we can put it in, and it was stone, like carving on stone and putting it on Pluto or something right? And a website, as mundane as it sounds like you've put your heart and soul into it. And there's a level of integrity there. You will you said you want people to feel grateful, and I'm sure they thank you all the time, and I do as well. So you've been making that impact.
• 58:35
  Philip Pape: Love that.
• 58:38
  Andy Morgan: It's not that I want people to feel grateful. I know, that's not what
• 58:43
  Philip Pape: I wrote on my notes that you said I probably miss.
• 58:45
  Philip Pape: Sorry.
• 58:47
  Andy Morgan: No, I want people to feel that this is something that they can trust. They can put it into practice, that they can just use it and not need to pay anything. And I think this just puts out, you know, good vibes in the world and those things come back. And then worst case, if everything goes tits up. I you know, I've got beer credits in many different cities around the world and then potentially even couches to sleep on. So
• 59:18
  Philip Pape: yeah, well, you know, still they're gonna, they're gonna have gratitude because they were able to get that from your website. So that's all I'm gonna say. What are you saying that? Alright, so second, the last question. You knew this was coming? Is there a question you wish I had asked and what is your answer?
• 59:34
  Andy Morgan: No. You've done a great job. I said at the start of this off the like, you're a good interviewer. You know me and you knew what to ask. And yeah, notice there's nothing
• 59:45
  Philip Pape: but appreciate it.
• 59:45
  Philip Pape: That's good enough answer for me. Where do you want listeners to find your work in case we didn't talk about your website?
• 59:49
  Philip Pape: Enough, right.
• 59:54
  Unknown: Sorry about that. Yeah, no, no, I
• 59:55
  Philip Pape: don't I don't mean that as a dig at all. I'm just saying people should know by now. Rip body.com But is there anywhere else? See?
• 1:00:00
  Andy Morgan: Exactly. That's it.
• 1:00:00
  Andy Morgan: If you want to follow along on Instagram, it's Andy underscore ripped body. But the detailed stuff, it's all on. It's all on the website. The Instagram is some short reels. I tried to put the detailed information I have on the site into short real form, but it's really tricky.
• 1:00:23
  Andy Morgan: And I much prefer writing. And then in the stories, it's more just kind of like life in Japan and kind of what I do day to day.
• 1:00:32
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, the reels are good, because they're just, you know, how to everyday it's like a how to write you had one recently about weight fluctuations and how to experiment on yourself to see how much it fluctuates, right, like, right this way, see how much fluctuates weigh yourself, like before and after bed, see how much flux, so good stuff like that. All right, website IgM. And add all the links of course in the show notes. I appreciate everything.
• 1:00:56
  Philip Pape: Appreciate your time and also listening to my show at a time.
• 1:00:59
  Philip Pape: That's that's an honor to me. It was cool to have you on so thank you.
• 1:01:03
  Andy Morgan: Thank you. I appreciate you. And thank you listeners for taking the time.
• 1:01:10
  Philip Pape: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them.
• 1:01:22
  Philip Pape: And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.