Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S6 E9 _ Frozen Fear_ The Butcher Baker of Alaska - Robert Hansen - Part 5

Transcript

S6 E9 _ Frozen Fear_ The Butcher Baker of Alaska - Robert Hansen - Part 5 · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to True crime and Wine Time. I'm Terry and
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I'm Lama. Tonight we are uncorking the truth why one
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: of the darkest crimes and breaking.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: It down together with you one case, one conversation, and
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: one or maybe two glasses of wine. It's taking a job.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: It's time to get comfortable and double check those rocks
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: before we just started.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: So let's take a sip and dive in.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Hello.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Hello, I was trying to pop my neck. Sorry.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: You know what you're not gonna believe right now, Terry,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: is that you know how earlier today your mouse like
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: you couldn't do anything with the one my computer's doing that.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Like I can't click on anything with this stream. By
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: the way, Amy, if you need I literally can't click
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: anything here.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I can only do my outline. But it was like
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: crazy that happened to me. That means there's a virus
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: out there or something. It's a fault.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: It's just our day. Like I can't expand it, I
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: can't do anything, but whatever, it doesn't matter.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: We're here. We're here. It looks like we have a
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: lady in gray here. Betty's here. Hope you're all healed
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: from your dental surgery.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you guys don't have to be bring comments
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: up if I can even read them, because they're like
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: cut off?
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I can, I can? I just realize, let me turn
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: off my volume. I have to say. If there's anyone
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: who's joined us right now that gets merch boxes, monkey
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: butt put a little bit of her that she wanted
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: to put into the boxes. Okay, Lama's like, Kevin technical,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: you look like I did on midday missing. I was like,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: what is going on here? I don't know what's happening.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I couldn't do my uh can't vista. I had my own.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna log out on my Google and restart it.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Why don't you carry on with things?
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: And I'll be right back because I can't even see
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: anybody now, so I will be right back.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, Eddie, I am glad maybe that you've gotten zero
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: accomplished today. I'm glad you have no pain, lady and Gray,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: it was pretty funny. And there's mister Lackey. Hello, Verdict
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: reached in Corey Richins. Oh no, and I just turned
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: my phone off. Okay, guys, Lama will be back. It
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: has been a day with technology. Earlier today I had
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the problem happen where my mouse got stuck on one window.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I couldn't move anything around, I couldn't open clothes, and
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I literally had to hear hard shut my Mac down.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Now I'm just having the same problem. So I'm going
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: to just go out on a limb and say we
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: are having a Monday monster on our computers. It's fixed.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I guess. I don't know. I just work here.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Can a girl just drank some vodkans True crime even
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: that kind of day? Oh a verdict already? That's well,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not so well. No, wait, because they're like two
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: hours behind, so that was a quick They were in
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: there all day with.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it has been a Monday. But thank you all
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: for hanging out with us on this Monday. Yes, thank
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: you all very much.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Well, before before we begin, if you're watching us on YouTube,
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  Speaker 1: Melsa.
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  Speaker 2: You never miss when we go live or drop an
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: episode because we are always doing something. I mean, hell,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: we're here on a Monday, and we're not even normally
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: here on Monday nights.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: But now I'm really confused because Angie says the verdicts
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: can be read at six twenty eastern.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Isn't it ahead of me? Angie is behind?
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Doesn't do time? Okay? I I am doing so much
• 4:33
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• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, like, guys, I get asked a comment, you'll
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: always drink guess what? Guys, sometimes we drink.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Coffee, Like I drink a lot of coffee.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I mean our daytime shows midday Missing only drink water.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: It's not always alcohol. Yeah no.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: But also when your podcast is named true Crime and
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Wine Time, it's kind of implied. Son.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, yeah, why don't you tell us what we're covering?
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Tonight thinks we're here on the well Monday.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Thanks, we're here on a Monday. Tonight is part five
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: of our Frozen fear. The Butcher Baker of Alaska series,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: where we are diving deep into infamous serial killer Robert Hansen,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: is endless number of victims who we refuse to let
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: be forgotten, and how all of it could have been
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: stopped numerous times, so so many times, and the state
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: of Alaska has a lot of blood on their hands,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: and we're here to shine a light on all of it.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I will let you all know tonight is sort of
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: a long one and while it may not be obviously
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: like focused on Hansen, I think when you listen to
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: the entire series, you will see exactly why we're covering
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: what we're about to talk tonight, because it just really
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: solidifies the ineptness of the investigators of the system. So
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: if you're like, where's all this route and trust, just
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: trust the Lama, Lama knows what she's doing. And don't
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: worry there will be lots of ransom Cursey words again tonight.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: They're just going to be here.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: For the whole thing, because it's gonna be there all day.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's already been all day. I mean we
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: started it, yes, and it's still going.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: It is lady and great, It is tragic it's how
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: many times Hanson could have been stuffed, you know. And
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: before we get into what we're drinking tonight, you know,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: as I think we said when we are covering the
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Lost Women in Alaska documentary on Sunday, it's just, you know,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of cases of serial killers where like
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: they're never really on the radar of law enforcement, and
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: then once they figure out who it is, they're like,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, right, this is not one of those cases.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: They knew who this kind of what kind of man
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: he was. I don't even to call him a man,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: but they knew so many times and so many women died,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: and it's infuriating, it's absolutely appalling. But before we get
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: into that, spetty kursy, where's are my favorite?
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Because there's lots of them?
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Me too, vibes, What are you drinking tonight?
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: So? I am drinking a Tito's Dirty Martini. Supposed to
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: be three, all of us, but he only gave me two.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: But that's okay. And I know you're all going, why
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: in the hell is Terry drinking a martini on a
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Monday night? Well, it's because of Lama and Robert Hanson,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: and because Alaska sucks and I need this to be
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: able to deal with this Monday of Mondays, and Robert
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Hanson agreed.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I also skipped the wine tonight. I know, I just
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: said it was part of our name of our show,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: but I went straight to Liquor two because that's been
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: my day as well. Tonight, I'm drinking aveda vodka which
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: is very clean and maybe a little dangerous because it
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: goes down very smooth, and then I've paired it with
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: simply peach juice. So it's one of my favor like
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: summertime drinks, even though it's funny. Six degrees here.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Cold, But I was like, that sounds so great to
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: be by the pool.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's twenty six degrees there. I highly recommend
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: it simply peach juice. So Croker had a coupon and
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I said, yes, please, I think.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: There's simply watermelon juice. You can only get it around
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: fourth of July.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Amy, it's.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Twenty two degrees there too. How do y'all survive living
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: in that kind of place?
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: You don't like it? We don't like it at all.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: I mean it is let me see. I mean, I
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: think our high was only fifty eight. Today it's forty
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: nine degrees outside.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Oh my, well, with that, let's get into the story
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: of tonight's case, shall we.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I'm refusing, you're refusing. I'm refusing. No, guys, Okay, we're
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: trying to make light of it, because that's it's hard.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: So in our last episode we did we stood at
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: the edge of Mchew Creek and we looked at the
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: tragic end of Beth van Santen. We saw how the
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: system flinched, how it had a name, a face, and
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: two survivors in Susan Heppard and Patty Roberts. Yet they
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: chose to look at the flower on a Baker's hands
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: instead of the darkness in his eyes. Robert Hansen didn't
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: just walk away from nineteen seventy one, guys, he walked
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: away with a newfound understanding of his own invisibility.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Now by the time the calendar turned to nineteen seventy two,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: the meek Baker had already established his own morbid checklist,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: target young vulnerable women near the transit corridors of the city.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Check use the brutal Alaskan elements to finish what he started.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Check hide behind a stutter, a steady job and a
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: rehabilitated reputation. Check, check and check what a respectable man.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: So tonight we enter nineteen seventy two, another year of
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: what we call the Silent Decade. It's a ten year
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: stretch where women vanish and the case files grew cold
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: before the ink was even dry. They took their names
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: and they were already cold. Tonight we're looking at two
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: names that have haunted the Anchorage Police Department for over
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: fifty years.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Now, first we're going to go to the Grain Dragon
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: nightclub where Shirley Ann Jonas stepped out into a February
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: freeze and never came home. Then we'll navigate the end
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: of Summer an end of Summer disappearance, disappearance of Zinger
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Zz Mason, a woman whose case was complicated by a
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: rough suspect and a system that seemed far too eager
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: to look at anyone except the man at the bakery.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, makes it so mad Already.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I don't like it. Ready, guys, I can fill it
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: bubbling up. Okay, we look past the static of the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: decades to find the truth behind the disappearances and murders
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: of Shirley Ane Jonas. And zz Mason, because while the
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: police were looking for a neatly dressed tall man and
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: other rough men, maybe the real monster was helping carry
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: in your groceries, baking your bread, and waiting for the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: sun to go down.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Can't wait to hear what you all think about these stories,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: so let's start with the first. So by February nineteen
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: seventy two, the shock of Beth Van Santon's death had
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: settled into the cold, hard soil of Anchorage's memory. The
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: city wanted to move on, to believe the girl in
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: the snow was a tragic anomaly, but the Alaskan Winner
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: wasn't finished with its secrets. On February twelfth, the shadow returned.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Shirley Jonas was eighteen, a petite young woman with black
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: hair and a life defined by service. She was a
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: daughter of a Baptist missionaries and stepdaughter to Reverend Willie Johnson.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Shirley was a student at Anchorage Community College, and she
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: spent her summer laborings in the fish canneries of imanok
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: imanok sure I try our best. She was the kind
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: of girl who felt safe in the community she helped build.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: But on Friday night at the Green Dragon nightclub that
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: safety evaporated.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Now The Green Dragon was a staple of the Anchorage nightlife,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: a place of smoke, music, and transia energy of a
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: pipeline era city. Surely had arrived with friends and relatives,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: but as the night wore on and the group thinned,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: she remained behind. At three am, as the club began
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: to empty and people filed out into the sub zero darkness,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Sureley was seen walking out the door, but she wasn't alone.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Why does the club open at three am? Is my
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: first question?
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: The bars close in Texas?
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Last calls it too? They closed at two thirty here
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: and oh there's after parties.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Last calls it. One cans the liquor past that? So yeah,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: when does this would later describe a man who seemed
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: to belong to the clan cut side of the seventies,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: A tall, white male, perhaps six foot two, neatly dressed
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: in a yellow shirt, open at the ca it was
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the seventies, it was. He had the bearing of a
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: military man, a common sight in a town surrounded by bases.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Besides him, beside him, the five foot to Shirley looked small,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: almost fragile. Sadly, it was the last time anyone would
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: see her alive. Yeah.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Seven hours later, at ten thirty am, the sun struggled
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: to cross the horizon. Dwayne Edward Parks pulled his truck
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: into a yard at one hundred and ten. I'm sorry,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: one ten eleven ten East Northern Lights Boulevard. Does that
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: road sound familiar yet, you guys, because we hear it
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: so much and won't keep hearing it. And that was
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: near the intersection with l Touch Street to refuel. Now,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: as he stepped out into the biting air, he saw
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: something that didn't belong along the heavy machinery and frozen gravel.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: A flash of skin against the gray snow.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: It was Shirley. She was unconscious, wearing only a light blouse.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: The rest of her clothing, her pants, shoes, and underwear
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: had been discarded nearby, scattered like trash in the wind.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: She was still breathing, her body locked in the final
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: desperate stages of hypothermia.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Now she miss might sound familiar, had been bound. Her
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: arms and legs were also marked with abrasions of a struggle,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and the medical examiners would later find the telltale signs
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: of sexual assault. The predator hadn't used a gun or
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: a knife to end her life, though he had simply
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: used the city's most abundant weapon, the cold.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Shirley Jones died shortly after arriving at the hospital. For
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: the Anchorage Police Department, the case was a nightmare of
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: dead ends. They interviewed over fifty people, circulated a composite
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: sketch of the tall man, and scoured the Greenjack Green
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Dragon for leads, but the man in the yellow shirt
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: had vanished.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Now the similarities to the Beth Van Santon case two
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: months earlier were impossible to ignore, at least for US.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know if they wanted to pay attention, but
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: it's pretty freaking obvious. Yeah, the agency struggled to conneccodance.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Both women were abducted near major transit corridors, both were
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: stripped and bound, and both were left in dump sites
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: where the environment acted as the executioner.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Robert Hanson, a five foot nine man, didn't fit the
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: tall mill description provided by the Devil Dragon witnesses, but
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: he did lit sorry by the Green Dragon witnesses.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: We saw his picture and we're like, devil, Yeah, but he.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Did live just over a mile from the truck yard.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Where Shirley was found. He worked the early morning shift
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: during the very streets were Shirley's close life, freezing in
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: the dirt.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Now, what's interesting is he is described as a as
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: tall numerous times during this entire story, which when I
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: would not describe him as as well.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: But when you're five foot two and you're you know, smaller,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: yeah you are, I get called tall all the time. Yeah,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: and I'm only five eleven. Yeah.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Most of his victims were between five two and five four,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: So like maybe everyone there were just like tiny people,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: but when they just seemed the five nine was just
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: not I wouldn't consider that to be a tall man.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: But also keep in mind that he knew there was
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: a very good possibility at this point in his storyline
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: that he was going to be locked up for an
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: extended period of time because of the assaults on Susan
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Hebbard and Patty Roberts from just a few months ago.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: So was there really anything to stop him from killing
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Shirley Jonas if he's the one that did it. No,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: he had absolutely a lot of motivation, yet he had
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: the means mode of an opportunity, I guess, is what
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I'm saying oh.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: He did, and as winter turned into spring and then
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: into summer, Shirley Jonas became another unsolved entry into the
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: ledger of the Silent Decade. If the predator had killed Shirley,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: then once again the law was looking for a giant
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: while a baker was busy meeting dough.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Now, before we move on to the next one, I
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: just want to say, sadly, that is all of the
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: information that you can find about Shirley Jonas anywhere anywhere.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: That's it. That's all anybody knows about that whole story.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: And it's she is not considered. She wasn't a victim
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: that Hanson admitted to. As a matter of fact, all
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the women we've talked up to it till now, he's
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: never admitted to any of them. But I will say
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: that if you ask me, she is literally everything about her,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: how she looked, her size, everything is exactly what we
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: end up learning. It's so textbook with him that you know,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: she could have easily left the bar with a tall man. Okay,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: but maybe she encountered Robert because guess what he did.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Between three and four o'clock in the morning. He has
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: headed to work at his bakery and he would admit
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: that that's the time when he would cruise around looking
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: for you know, well working.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: With him later on that he doesn't admit to some others.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: And I'm gonna be honest, there's definitely direct proof in
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: those that he was involved. So he picked, he picked,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: and choosed chose who he wanted to absolutely.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: But when I ran across Shirley Jonas, I was like,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: m why is she never like she's not talked about?
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, ooh, but that like literally lines up
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: with everything we know. Hm. So I put her on
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: the list of people I think he was in fact
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: responsible for. So now that is sadly the end of
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: what we know about Shirley Jonas. But next up by
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: August nineteen seventy two, So that last story was in February.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: We're in August. The legal system was patting itself on
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: the back, if you remember, because that's right. He only
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: served six months for the attempted kidnapping of Susan hefferd
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: where his entire actual kidnapping, a sole and rape of
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Patty Roberts was dismissed a part of his plea deal.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Remember that. So but they were like, oh, look at
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: that Robert's great. You know what, Let's take him out
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of prison and let's move him to a halfway house.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: So on paper, he was a model of progress, a
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: man transitioning back into the rhythm of a productive life.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Sure, sir, but halfway houses offer a dangerous middle ground.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Hanson had a job, he had scheduled check ins, but
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: he also had dead time, unmonitored hours where he could
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: slip into the city's underbelly. And perhaps he was learning
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: how to navigate the strip while maintaining the veneer of
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: a man under supervision. Nobody was watching.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Him no now, Also being transferred to a halfway house
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: gives Hanson a sense of intellectual superiority. He had beaten
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: the psychiatrist and the parole board. That's not up for debate.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: That is literally what happened. How could he not come
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: out of there being like, I'm untouchable. I can do
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: pretty much whatever the system works for me, you know.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: So in his mind he was smarter than the men
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: guarding him. True, and that kind of confidence is exactly
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: what a predator needs to start hunting again.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Cez was a vibrant, athletic twenty year old woman who
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: stood five foot seven inches tall with long, curly brown hair.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: She was a graduate of Dunmond High School, a former
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: student at Anchorage Community College, and the heart of a
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: close knit family. Her brothers were away at a university
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: in Oregon, and her thirteen year old sister Tony was
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: left to face the reality no child should ever have
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: to know.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: She was a ground hostess for Japan Airlines and a
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: woman who truly loved her job. She was responsible, punctual,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: and deeply connected to her family, which is why her mother, Charlynne,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: who knew the moment Zizi didn't show up for her
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: shift at the International Airport, that something was really wrong.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: On August twenty second, nineteen seventy two, the city of
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Anchorage lost another daughter to the shadows of the Silent decade.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Zizi's disappearance began with a simple task of picking her
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: car up from a repair shop. She left her home
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: home at seventy two fifty five sand Lake Road dressed
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: in the fashion of the air. She had on a
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: tead on turquoise bel bottom pants, a red and brown
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: sweater with a brown swede hooded jacket, in dark blue
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: cloth shoes. I can so picture it. I kind of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: find a picture of them.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: But those turquoise bel bottom pants, yes, please like I
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: want turquoise pants so bad. Now she hit She intended
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: to hitchhike across Diamond Boulevard to Lake Otis Parkway, And
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two, hitchhiking was still a common mode
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: of transportation in Alaska, but for a predator like Hanson,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it was a buffet of targets delivered straight to the roadside.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Now Azizi though never made it.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: To the shop.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: She never picked up her car. She simply just vanished.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: For nearly a week, the Mason family held on to
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: a thin thread of hope, but on Monday, August twenty eighth,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: that thread was severed by the most innocent of witnesses.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: In a detail that feels like a scene from a nightmare,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Sez Mason wasn't found by a specialized search team of
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: a canine unit. She was found by neighborhood children.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, while playing in a granvel pit' sound familiar guys.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: A granvel pit near the intersection of San Lake Road
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: and Diamond Boulevard, just a short distance from where she
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: had last been seen. The children stumbled upon the brunette
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: ground hostess. She was no longer the vibrant twenty year
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: old in turquoise bell bottoms. She was a grim marker
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: in the tall grass of a vacant lot.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: While the final results were closely guarded by the Alaska
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: State Troopers, the preliminary findings painted a picture of a
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: brutal personal struggle. Zizi had suffered severe head wounds, meaning
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: it was a close quarters assault that required a terrifying
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: level of physical aggression.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah now, the discovery sent a shockwave through the city.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: This was the.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Third young woman under the age of twenty one to
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: be found dead or missing in just nine months. The
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: city was no longer just a place where people came
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: to reinvent themselves. It was becoming a place where young
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: women went to die.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: The public saw predator who seemed to prefer a specific
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: type brunettes in their late teens or early twenties, and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: a specific hunting ground. All three women had disappeared or
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: been found along the southern quarrider of the city, near
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: the highways that led out into the vast, unpeeled wilderness.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: The press was quick to ask the question that was
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: already terrifying the city. Was this related to Beth van
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Zantin and Shirley Anne Jones? Was there a hunter in
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: their midst? I mean, how could you not be asking
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: those questions. I mean, hindsight's twenty twenty, I'm saying absolutely
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: there was.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Right now, this put the Alaska State Troopers and the
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Anchorage police in a very difficult position. Sergeant Walter Gilmore's
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: refusal to comment on the links between the cases was
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: meant to prevent a panic, which is normal, okay, But
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: it had the opposite effect, which is also normal. Wows easy.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Family mourned a beautiful and vibrant daughter, and investigators remained
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: tight lipped. The community remained on edge.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Anchorage was a town built on thubbing rides. After Zeezi
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Mason vanish while trying to pick up the pick up
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: her car, the cultural staple died a quick depth. Mothers
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: began driving their daughters everywhere, and young women stopped walking
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: alone after dusk.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Now, there was also a growing feeling that the police
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: were out gunned. You say, if a man could kill
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: a woman in the city and dump her in a
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: gravel pit or a mountain creek within twenty minutes, how
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: could anyone be safe, and that's a fair question.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Fair question answer is they're not. They're spoilers for the
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: next fifty years. They're not. If the murders were at
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: all related, then it wouldn't have been done by some
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: drifter or military pipeline eye. It would mean that the
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: predator is a local, and Hansen was the ultimate local.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: He was the man who sold you your morning rolls.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: He was the man who likely stood in the same
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: grocery store lines as the families of these victims. That
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: makes me sick to my stomach because he didn't fit
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: the look of a savage killer. He was the one
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: person the public's collective fear never touched.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Now, the troopers quickly realized that the gravel pit wasn't
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: the site of the murder. Important to remember that, okay,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: But it was a dumping ground chosen for its seclusion.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Investigators found a chilling trail of blood stains and disturbed
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: earth running from a set of tire tracks to wear
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: easy Way. They believed she had been killed elsewhere and
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: hauled to the pit, likely under the cover of darkness.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: That's their initial that's their idea. Remember that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she was also missing her red and brown sweater,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: her sweet jacket, her shoes, and her purse. The fact
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: that she was found half clothed and sexually assaulted. It
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: wasn't just a robbery gone wrong or some random act
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: of violence, guys. It was a crime of sexual dominance,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: a signature that was becoming disturbingly familiar in Anchorage.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Beth was that way, surely was that way. And nowz
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Seed's gone away. Now, While well, Zeezi had been missing
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: for a week, corner Ronnie Bray believed she had been
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: dead since the day she disappeared. Whoever had taken her
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: hadn't kept her. He most likely ended her life almost
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: immediately and then waited for the right moment to discard her.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: The troopers also noted that the pit was so rugged
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: it would be accessible only by a four wheel drive vehicle.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Then they found the smoking gun in the dirt.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: A said, patience, Yeah, I just big quotations around the
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: smoking gun for our listeners.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm a hold one to my would be
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a set of distinctive tire tracks near the body.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Now, on a standard off road tire, the knobby edges
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: are designed to bite outward for grip, but on this
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: specific vehicle, one of the tires had been mounted incorrectly,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: so the edges were biting inward, and the inward biting
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: tire track was basically like a mechanical fingerprint. But while
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: the troopers had the tire tracks, they didn't have the
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: man or the vehicle. And then right before it's so funny, they're.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Like, hmm, it could only be a four wheel drive
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: car in Alaska, Like, does anyone have a non four
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: wheel vehicle living in That's crazy?
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: As a Northerner, that would be crazy.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, when doctor Donald R. Rogers performed the autopsy,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: he found evidence of a struggle that was both heartbreaking
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: and terrifying. Zz Mason had not gone quietly. Doctor Rogers
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: had found superficial cuts on the inside of her thumbs
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and her fingers, proof that she had reached out with
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: her bare hands to grab the blade of her Safeln's
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: knife in a desperate attempt to stay alive.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: It's right, Seezy was a hell of a fighter.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: She was.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: She also sustained eight stab wounds to her chest, back,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: and left arm, Three were potentially fatal. But the killer
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: didn't stop there. He also delivered multiple blows to her
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: head with a blunt object, causing massive skull fractures.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: The investigation was feather marred by a public feud. Corner
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Ronnie Bray, was very upset by the trooper's decision to
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: release grisly unconfirmed details to the press before the family
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: had been properly briefed. No, Alaska, you screwed up so
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: many times here with saying one must have concern for
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the living as well as for the death. She told
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the Daily News.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you can't think of more reasons to dislike
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: the investigators of Alaska, and yeah, I have that one
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: to the list now. Another one of the details that
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: was propelling this massive rift was the report indicating that
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: she had had sexual intercourse before death, but they could
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: not confirm rape, and this clinical ambu giddy? Am you
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: giddy in the ambu guidy? Yes, I'm sorry. The voda's working.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Was kind of sorry all right.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Anyway. It was kind of a slap in the face
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: to the Graeving family and definitely a whole defense attorneys
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: would later exploit because why why are we sharing these
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: things initially with yeah, the public when the family hasn't
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: even told that. That is wild to especially when oh
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Nothing said about Shirley Jonas anywhere.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Or you know, I don't understand what they were thinking.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. While the authorities argued over paperwork in
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: bad taste, the actual forensic timeline was becoming a mess.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: The troopers thought she died the night she vanished vanished,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: but the pathologists thought she had only been dead forty
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: eight hours. This five day discrepancy was a large gap
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: of time. Could the killer have held her, maybe waited
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: for the heat to die down before dumping her in
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: the sand light gravel pit, or were one of them wrong?
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know, right, Like, how are we having yeah, disagreements?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Why are we going behind the corners back at this
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: point in the game, Like this is very it's peculiar.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a pissing contest to me. But that's just me.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: I remember the coroner is a woman.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: H Sorry, I just saw that.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: H Okay, where were we here?
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Sorry?
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I had scrolled up, I lost my spot.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Oh there we are, Okay, thank you. Now. In a
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: landscape defined by construction and gravel, the eyes of the
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: working class became the eyes of the wall. A truck
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: driver hauling gravel became the anchor for the prosecution. Yeah,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: you guys heard that word correctly, prosecution slide. I think
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you might know where this story might be heading towards
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: the end. Now. He said he was near sand Lake
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Road again, that's right where it's easy lived, when he
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: saw a young woman matching zzy description climb into a
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: yellow or white depending on the report. Mm hmm, Yeah,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: that's right, yellow or white because those are close to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: being the same color in daylight. Yeah, and that it
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: was a yellow or white four wheel drive pickup truck
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: with two men.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Then just thirty minutes later, the driver returned for another load.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: The truck was still there, but it had moved a
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: more remote, secluded area of the gravel pit. This time,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: the driver only saw one man with the girl. The
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: second man was gone.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Now, the quote break in the case didn't come from
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: any forensics, but instead from a woman who called the
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: troopers ID, identifying herself as the girlfriend of one of
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: the men in the truck. Message was basically, my boyfriend,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Ralph Dennis Kiner was there, but he totally didn't do it.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: It was the other guy. And that other guy was
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Gary Zeiger, a nineteen year old with a nineteen seventies
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: four wheel drive white pickup.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: When investigators tracked down the boyfriend, Ralph, his story was
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: a mixture of nonchalance and negligence. He did confirm both
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: his girlfriend and the truck driver stories. He told them
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: that he and Seeker had gone to the gravel pits
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: for target practice. They had picked up a female hitchhiker,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: but to him she was just some girl. They then
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: left the pit with the girl sitting in the middle
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: of the bench seat. Gary then dropped the friend off
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: at a nearby fire station, then drove away with the
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: girl in the cab.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Now, to the troopers, this was a closed circle.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Bam ye done.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: They had a witness, which apparently they chose to believe
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: a woman in a scenario for once a vehicle and
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: a last scene with the suspect confirmation. Just so you know,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: they had these same things in all the other future cases,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: but apparently this one they want to do something about
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: it now.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I only believed because a man corroborated her.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Story pretty much it sounds like now, and those smoking
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: gun tire tracks they believed came from Gary's truck.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: So while the system was ignoring the meek Baker it
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: had found that a different kind of monster in Gary Zecker,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: did the Alaska State Troopers. Gary Zeker wasn't just a suspect.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: He was a well known psychopathic force.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Now born and raised an Anchorage, Gary was a man
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: who seemed to embody the fast and hard era of
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: the early seventies. He was a bright kid who had
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: traded his potential for a life of drifting construction work
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: and unbridled violence. Gary's not great, guys, He's not great.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: He's not great.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Just his preface.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: He's not great. He's not great. He was a loner
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: who ran with a dangerous crowd, a man who famously
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: claimed the only time he ever wore a necktie was
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: for his high school yearbook photo.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, Gary, we're colexed, but okay.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: By nineteen seventy two, he was a ghost in the system,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: with no permanent address, no steady job, and a reputation
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: that preceded him no matter where he went. Now.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Sergeant Walter Gilmore's unpublished accounts reveal why the troopers were
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: so certain and Gary Zeiger killed Zizi Mason a year earlier,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: in the summer of nineteen seventy one, the body of
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: a young Alaskan Native boy was found in a secluded
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: area of the Anchorage International Airport, and a trail of
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: twenty two shellcasing stretched for seventy yards, indicating the boy
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: had been running for his life while being hunted.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: A man named James Howard Batty eventually confessed, but it
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: wasn't revealed until his sentencing that he said what had
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: allegedly happened. He said that he and Gary had kidnapped
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: the boy in Gary's truck, forced him to perform sexual acts,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: and then told him to run.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Now, Gary reportedly ran alongside the boy, firing a twenty
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: two pistol repeatly until the child finally collapsed. Now, because
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: a twenty two is not a high caliber weapon, it
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: took a whole lot of shots and a long, sadistic
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: chase to end the boy's life. Now, this sounds like
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: the work of a man who enjoyed the hunt. But
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: also it should be noted that Gary was never charged
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: with the murder of a young boy or anything related
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: to it, which does pause some question for me in
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: the truth of this story from Batty. But also it's Alaska,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: so who knows who knows who knows?
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: The link between Zeeger and zz Mason wasn't just his
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: violent history baby while on work release for the airport murder. Yes, nice,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: you heard that correct. He was on work release six
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: months after being sentenced for the murder of a child. Yeah,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: welcome to Alaska.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just great, Just what a magical it just waste.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Now had helped Gary mount snow tires on a truck
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: he vividly remembered one crucial detail. One of the tires
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: had been mounted on the rim in an inverted fashion.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Now, when troopers found those same inverted tire tracks at
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: the San Lake gravel pit where Zeezi was found, they
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: didn't just see a lead. They saw a forensic signature
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: that could link Gary to her murder. Now, to Gilmour
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: and his team, the math was simple. Gary owned a
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four wheel drive truck. Zieger had a history
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: of allegedly kidnapping people in that truck and forcing them
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: into sexual acts if you believe, and Gary's truck had
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: the inverted tires that matched the crime scene. So one
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: plus one plus one obviously equals Gary Zeiger.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: So I know we don't math here, but Alaska's math
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: is even worse than ours. I'm just gonna go out
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: on the limb and say that here. Okay, the troopers
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: were so fixated on Gary's inverted tire in the history
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: of target practice, they never stopped to ask if there
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: was another man in town who liked to kidnap and
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: assault young women. I mean a young Native boy. I
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: mean not saying, but was Gary's zz Mason's real killer
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: or was he just taking the heat for the south
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: side slings when the real predator was safe in this
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: halfway house?
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, at this point could be either or I
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: mean it. But they didn't even bother.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: They were just like, you know what it masked for me.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Now, The arrest of Gary Zeiger on September second, nineteen
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: seventy two felt like a definitive victory for the Alaska
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: State Troopers. To the investigators, especially Sergeant will Walter Gilmour,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: it wasn't just about zz Mason. It was about off
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: ramping a known psychopath before he could claim another.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: How convenient. How convenient because he had never been convicted
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: or charged of anything. Now, the state charged Ziger with
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: a trio of crimes first degree murder, murder during rape,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: and murder daring robbery The last charge, though, was basically
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: a catch all because the z's ring, wallet, and clothing
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: were still missing.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Now, on paper, the case looked like it was built
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: on a mountain of circumstantial evidence that all pointed to
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: the nineteen year old construction worker. The troopers used a
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: combination of old school eyewitness work and what was then
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: cutting edge forensic testing to build their case.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: They had the gavel truck driver or the gravel truck driver,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: who had seen the girl in the truck twice in
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: one afternoon, and he successfully picked Gary out of a
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: police lineup. Troopers also obtained a search warrant for Zegers
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: four by four. They found three small blood spots cross
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: splashed across the interior dashboard. Gary's excuse it had been
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: hunting wabbits.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting it. I didn't even didn't see that
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: coming to the credit.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: It was right there the whole time. I thought you
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: did that on purpose.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't know, but it's amazing, But.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: The lab disagreed. A precipitent test, a precursor to modern
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: DNA work, came back positive for human blood.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Though of course the blood was part of the corner
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: versus trooper few that was also going on. One trooper
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: source cleaned the blood on the dash match Zz's type,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: while coroner Ronnie Bray remained cautious, stating the lab couldn't
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: definitively make that link yet it wasn't even possible, I do,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: like at all. All they could do at the time
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: was blood typing, which is barely I mean, that's not
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: going to do I mean anything. It helped us super.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: One, right, it helped us get to where we are today, Yeah,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: for sure. But yeah, so now a trooper talking out
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: to Das. Apparently, the knobby tire tracks found in the
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: mud of the gravel pit were a pool of where
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: a pool of blood showed the body had been dragged,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: were said to be a perfect match for Zeker's truck.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Troopers even located a secluded spot near a creek where
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: they believed Gary had attempted to scrub the truck clean.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: The mud at the creek bank bore the same will
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: weird inverted tire trucks.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I'll save my thoughts for a later about all of
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: this forensics.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Well, I can just tell you this. There was a
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: case in two thousand and four in Alaska did the
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: same thing with tires. They said, this guy's truck because
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: he had one tire different than the other three. Yeah,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: and they their crime scene had one tire different. The
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: same tire on his truck was different, and so they
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: arrested him. Turned out it wasn't him.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. So literally that's in the two thousands
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: and this takes place in nineteen seventy two.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, still didn't learn anything. Nope.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Sorry to residents of Alaska, we like you, but we
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: got some pinions about Alaska. Splaining to do now. Sergeant
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Gilmour later admitted that despite the slightly different mo O,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: he had a strong feeling Gary Zeiger was also responsible
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: for the death of Beth van Zand remember that's the
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: same guy who had that strong feeling about Cozy and
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Greg in Beth van Zanten's case that led to nothing.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: And he's also helped co write Butcher and the Baker
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: and I do not have strong opinions on Sergeant Walter
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Gilmour at all, so anyway, but that's neither there now
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: in the eyes of the law, they had found their
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: singular monster. They believe that by locking up Ziger, they
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: were solving the South Side slings in one fell swoop. Well,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: isn't that just convenient forum you guys? Oh my gosh,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: bro tho guys right rov Oh maybe.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Though, guys. If Gary was responsible for the murder of Zz,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: the troopers were foe so focused on Zieger's vicious profile
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: they didn't see the discrepancies between the crimes. Gary was loud, impulsive,
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: and messy. He left witnesses at the scene and blood
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: on his dashboard.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Now, Robert Hanson had also been hunting rabbits quote unquote
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two. He also drove a four wheel
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: drive vehicle. He also visited gravel pits for target practice
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: and would be known to a drop victims at gravel pits.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: He had just gotten out of prison in a halfway house.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: But unlike Zeiger, Hanson knew how to clean a dashboard.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: He knew how to hide trophies where they wouldn't be
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: found in a routine search. He was a little bit
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: more experienced.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Gary was nineteen, you know. As the city celebrated the
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: arrest of Gary, Seiger was the true predator of the
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Silent decade, learning his most valuable lesson yet to the
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: loud monsters to let the loud monsters. Take the fall
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: while you perfect the art of the ghost and think
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Shirley Jonas goes missing. He then is sent to prison
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: for six months. He gets out literally a week or
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: two later. We have another missing, young, dead girl. What
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: are the odds of that? That's so wild.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: By the end of nineteen seventy two, Gary Zeiger had
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: become the face of the South Side slayings, sitting behind
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: bars for months while the city of Anchorage finally fell
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: a cold sense of relief. But inside the courtroom, the
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: air tight case built by the troopers was beginning to
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: show its first microscopic cres.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Despite repeated attempts to lower his bell, the courts remain unmoved.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: The state's attorney was blunt. There was more than probable
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: cause to keep Zyger off the streets. In the eyes
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: of the prosecution, Zigger wasn't just a suspect. He was
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: a clear and present danger to every woman in the
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Anchorage bowl.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: I'll look at them being concerned about women. Oh oh wait,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: I almost forgot which story recover it.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what do you where? They were at this guy?
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: And listen, I'm not here to say whether or not
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: he did. But all I'm saying is is that Hanson
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: was literally found assaulting and kidnapping a woman, and he
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: got his own recognents twice within weeks, and then a
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: girl ended up dead.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: To have a lot of clear and present danger.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: The random women, I don't understand now, Alaska. Now, this
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: seventy five thousand dollars bond, which is equivalent to nearly
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: five hundred and fifty thousand dollars today, was a legal
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: anchor designed to keep a stone cold psychopath exactly where
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: the troopers wanted him. And honestly, I'm just gonna go
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: ahead and say this now, I think Gary was a
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: scapegoat hie for them to be like, Nope, we're not
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: dufuses about things. Nope, we cancel things. And look at
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: this kid, who's a kid?
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: He was a good guy.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: No, he's not a good guy. Friends, it's not but
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: this says it's so like, who are they fooling here?
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but like what and how are you? How
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: was he going to be the face of this? And
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: yet nothing about him pops up when it comes to
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: bed bandit and or Shirley Jonas.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: Right, So Gary Ziger's lawyer Assistant public defender John Larson
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: began a systematic dismantling of the state's narrative. He didn't
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: just ask for a lower bail, He asked for Gary's
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: release on his own recognance, arguing that the state was
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: holding a man on nothing more than weak and circumstantial evidence.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I just found out it was snowing, rather crazy,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: covered with snow. They're only outside for like a few minutes.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Larson's strategy focused on a get about it and then
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: I'm like, where's that coming from?
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Larson's strategy focused on a single, powerful and not too
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: uncommon theme. I mean it worked for other people, the
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: rush to judgments. Oh boy, does do they like? Rushing
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: to judgment on lots of things? Now? He argued that
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: with three young women dead or missing and now months,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: the troopers were feeling the public pressure and desperate for
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: a win, they needed a monster to show the public,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: and Gary Zeiger, with his hard reputation and his four
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: x four, fit the profile perfectly.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just want to know how many other
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: four by fours or white or yellow in Alaska, because
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking there's a lot. Yeah, it's the seventies. My
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: dad had a yellow four by four Bronco in the seventies.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Well, they couldn't even decide if it's a way or
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: if it's yellow, which again very different colors.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: Larsen also pointed out that having inverted tires or being
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: seen near a gravel pit was not proof of murder
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: in a town full of four wheel drives and target shooters.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: These were commonalities, not a smoking gun. And while the
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: state touted the human blood on the dashboard, the defense
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: noted the lack of a definitive type match to zez Mason.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: Without that link, the blood could have been literally from anyone,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: including Gary Zeiger himself. Yeah yeah. As Larson chipped away
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: at the evidence, the real danger of the Seeker arrest
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: became clear. By focusing so intensely on one vicious suspect,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the authorities were creating a blind splot.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, Robert Hanson was no stranger to the legal
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: system at this point. He understood how a good lawyer
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: can exploit a fine point in sentencing or evidence. We
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: heard about it and got hissed about it, as everyone
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: should have been. Now he could have been watching the
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: stape for all of its resources into Garaziger for a
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: man like Hanson. The Zyger trial could have been tutorial.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: He saw exactly what the police looked for, like in
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: the tire tracks, blood spatter, and eyewitnesses at the scene.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: He could learn that if he could eliminate those three variables,
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: he could probably kill forever.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Rights.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: But along with all the other crazy shit, he's learned that, oh,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: that's all right. He can literally do whatever he wants.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: They don't care. You get out in six months, it's fine.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Our legal system has given him one hell of an
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: education on how to get away with murder. Literally. As
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: the trial of Gary Zager approached, the air tight case
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: the state and the Alaskan State Troopers had touted began
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: to look more like a shifting mosaic of theories and
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: late night revisions.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: Try watching friends prepare yourselves, okay, and then I'll just
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: feel like, okay, yeah, this is crazy, all right. So
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: the state's core theory was pretty simple. Gary Ziger and
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: his friend Ralph Dennis Kiner picked up Zz Mason as
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: she hit hiked. Gary dropped Kiner at a fire station
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: for some reason, then returned to the gravel pit alone
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: with Zz to kill her, because that makes sense. But
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: as the trial date loomed, the facts began to migrate
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: a little. Isn't that cute?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Their lynchpin was Haram Matthews, the gravel truck driver who
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: saw the pickup truck leave with three people and return
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: with two, with the only thing tying Ziger to the
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: crime scene in real time now.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Perhaps the most disturbing shift came from the medical examiner,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: doctor Donald, who, by the way his initials, it was
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: often doctor Dr Rogers, so it was like doctor doctor Rogers,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: which was great. I didn't write it like that way
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: in here, but it was like that all over everything,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, that's so funny. Now.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: His original report estimated zz had been dead only forty
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: eight hours before being found, a timeline that would have
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: actually exonerated Ziger.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: In a series of handwritten additions signed with DRR, the
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: doctor changed his minds on a few other things. Citing
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: the sixty degree Alaskan days, he pushed the time of
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: death back to August twenty second. He also reversed the
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: theory that she was killed elsewhere. After a revisit to
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: the pit, he noted a large amount of blood soaked
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: into the sand, concluding she likely died where.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: She was found, and I just wanted to know doctor.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Doctor Rogers was not a young man. He's a very
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: experienced individual.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: He was well seasoned.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: So to kind of this chick back seas is, it's
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: interesting and I'm skeptical now. By September eighth, nineteen seventy two,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: a total hush descended on the case. All parties were
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: barred from speaking to the media, leading to a vacuum
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: filled by whispers of a cover up on one side
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: and secret evidence on the other. You don't say, oh
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: my gosh.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: The Daily News Private Investigation hinted at a major surprise
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: in their paper. One of the biggest was the quiet
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: retreat from the rape and robbery charges. Despite the initial
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: vicious assault headlines, the state was no longer sure they
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: could prove a motive. They were left with a first
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: degree murder charge that was built almost entirely on the
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: testimony of a truck driver and a set of inverted
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: tire tracks.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Then there were the troopers who had to reconcile a
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: glaring and consistency their earlier report that Zizi had been
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: seen in the Lake Otis Tudor Road area after she
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: supposedly got into Zyger's truck. If she was seen alive elsewhere,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: the state's entire theory of her being with Gary Zyger
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: until her death would collapse, basically going they don't have shit, okay,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: And so far the state and the investigators and everybody
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: seems to have changed their minds significantly that it should
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: be very questionable. You should be questioning this. This is
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: not normal. Now, the focus of the Alaska legal system
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: shifted two hundred and fifty miles southwest of Anchorage to
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: the rugged, wind sweeping fishing town of Kodiak. In a
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: dramatic move to escape the suffocating trial by media in
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: the mainland, Superior Court Judge C. J. O. Chipinto granted
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: a change of venue. These these court drawings are hilarious.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: I have to say, can you imagine what they would
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: call the trial by media today? Oh, if they thought
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: that's what it was back then, think of it now.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: The city of three thousand was turned upside down. Hotels
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: were packed with lawyers, state troopers and witnesses. A District
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: district Attorney W. H. Mackie arrived with crates of evidence,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: seven hundred pounds worth of maps, forensic and yes, guys,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: those big ass famous inverloted tires made the trip.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Seven hundred pounds of evidence. Now, the move to the
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: second floor of the Kodiak State Office Building was a
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: strategic victory for defense attorney John Larson. He has successfully
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: argued that the South Side slayings had become so ingrained
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: in the Anchorage psyche that finding twelve impartial jurors was
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: a mathematical impossibility. I'll be honest, he's probably not wrong.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: Maybe because you know, they went to the press about
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: what stuff in we getting.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, Kodiak was a town of skeptics.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: I like them Already, while Anchorage whispered about cover ups
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: and serial killers, the local fishermen to not believe things
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: until they saw them. I like them, and Larson was
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: ready to play on the local codiac skepticism. He wasn't
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: just defending a man, he was defending a drifter against
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: a system under immense pressure to provide an answer to
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: a terrified public.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: Now, in the quiet atmosphere of Kodiak, the years of
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: justice began to turn with surprising speed. What many expected
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: to be a grueling, days long ordeal of jury's selection
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: was complete in just five hours. By Tuesday morning, twelve
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Kodiak residents, eight men and four women stood to be
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: sworn in, tasked with deciding the fate of a man
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: this state labeled a stone cold psychopath.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: That was faster than the jury instructions. When are the
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: jury selection for when I got picked for a civil trial?
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's real fast for a murder trial on all,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: that's fast, But two hundred and fifty miles away in
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: the seventies, I mean they probably don't know.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The final jury reflected the diverse, blue collar backbone
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: of the fishing town. It wasn't a group of legal
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: experts or career bureaucrats, but a cross section of Alaskan life.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: There was a school principal, a bartender, a fisherman, construction workers,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: and housewives. A panel that, according to local sentiment, wouldn't
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: believe anything unless they saw the proof with their own eyes.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: Now, Prosecutor Mackie had grilled the prospective jurors on their
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: exposure to the sensational Anchorage headlines. While some had read
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: the accounts, the Kodiak wall held firm and none felt
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: influenced by the mainlands media circus. To them, Gary Zeiger
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: was just a man in a courtroom, not the monster
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: from the papers.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Now. Defense attorney John Larson wasted no time setting the
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: tone during questioning. He leaned heavily on the presumption of
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: innocence and the heavy burden of proof placed on the state.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: He wanted this jury to understand that circumstantial guys wasn't enough,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: especially in a town that valued hard evidence over.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: Rumors, and in a surprising move just before adjournment of
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: the day, the defense withdrew its motion to sequester the jury, which,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: epect you Larsen was betting that these twelve people could
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: go home to their families and still maintain the mental
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: distance required to see the cracks. He intended to show them.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: That to me is just shocking.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is very surprising.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The most shocking moment of the jury selection process
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: came when prosecutor Mackie mentioned a potential witness, James Howard Batty.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: I'm that guy. Yeah. To the investigators, Batty was the
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: key to proving Zyger's predatory nature. Yep, that guy from
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy one airport murder, who confessed that he
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: and Zyger had hunted a young boy for sport that
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: sweet little charmer. By bringing Batty's name into the room,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: the State was signaling its intent to use Zyger's dark
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: pass to light up the Zzy Mason case.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: Listen, it is never a good case if you have
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: to rely on that kind of person as your star witness. Sure,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Just by the way, not.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: Saying Zyger is a good guy, I am by no
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: means saying he's a good guy. I'm just saying baby
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: is not somebody I would want. I wouldn't risk everything
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: on No, not me.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: Mm mmm.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: The day of testimony and Kodiak moved into a slow
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: emotion at tension. After the jury was sworn in that morning,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: the legal teams laid out two very different versions of
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: what happened in the Anchorage gravel Pits.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Prosecutor Mackie was surprisingly candid with a jury, admitting from
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: the jump that the States case would be virtually completely circumstantial.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: He warned the panel that the evidence would arrive like
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: scattered puzzle pieces, and that some of which would have
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: no meaning until much later in the trial.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: In my experience, that is not a good opening steam, sir,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: I know, I'm like I had to hear the whole thing,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: but that was the highlights. It's not great. It's not
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: a strong, strong opening.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: Defense attorney John Larson conceded that Gary Zeiger did give
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Ziz Mason a ride, but he claimed that Gary dropped
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: her off shortly after and was occupied with other matters
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: for the rest of the afternoon. Larsen promised the jurors
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: to show that the troopers had ignored in consistencies to
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: pen the vicious and brutal attack on his clients.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: Everybody, just remember two things can be true at the
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: same time.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: Ray exactly.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The afternoon was filled with the voices of those
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: who knew Zz best, her ex boyfriend Donald B. Setter,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: her current boyfriend Timothy Gatsby, and her mother, Charlene Mason.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: All of them took the stand, but they didn't speak
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: of a murder. They spoke of life. They spoke of
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: Cez's life.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: Then the jury heard the breakdown of Zz's alleged final
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: twenty four hours. Zzi had spent time with her ex boyfriend,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: then went to dinner with her current boyfriend Tim and
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: finally returned home at four thirty am on August twenty second.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: She went to work, came home, and then set out
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: to hitchhike to Gadsby's house to pick up her car,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: and that was the last time her family ever saw
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: her alive again.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: And a heartbreaking term Ceesi's mother and sister testified to
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: her high standards of personal hygiene. This was used to
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: contrast the state of her body when found, suggesting she
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: had been held or treated in a way that stripped
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: her of her dignity before her death. Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what that was supposed to mean
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: when I read it, but I was just like, why,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: I don't like what?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: What was that?
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: Trust me? I have looked everywhere for some of these answers. Unfortunately,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: we don't have the transcripts of this trial, which I
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: want very bastly. But it was very It was a
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: very important point that was being made. But I did
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: not come across why they really wanted to make them point,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: Like what must have happened my either my brain refuses
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: to try to put it together or I just can't
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: put it together.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but I have thoughts, not a like
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: whe any of them go. So yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Now, while the first day focused on Zz's movements, the
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: state announced that their first major witness would be doctor
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: Donald R. Rogers, or doctor doctor Rogers, the pathologist whose
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: handwritten additions, Yes, hand written editions had already caused quite
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: the stir in the pre trial face.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: His typewriter was out of ribbon. Okay, give him.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know about that. When you need to
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: go fix some notes for long enforce, I.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: Know I was trying to be Yeah, he was fixing shit.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: Prosecutor Mackie had promised the jury that doctor Rogers would
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: address the controversial changes to the time in place of
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: the death. It was certainly a high stake scamble, because
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: if doctor Rogers couldn't convince the jury why his first
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: estimate was wrong, the state entire timeline of Zyger's killing
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Zizi on the afternoon of August twenty second, Mike collapsed
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: before the first two days of the trial was over.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just wild, it's just like now. Doctor Rogers began
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: by talking about the Alaskan August climate. He argued that
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: the cooler Alaskan nights between August twenty second and twenty
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: eight had preserved the body, leading to his initial underestimation.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: He stated that he firmly believed that she had been
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: dead for five to six days. Now, I just swint
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: of preface here. Yes, is that cold in Alaska in August?
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: But sir, you have been in Alaska for how long?
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: And that just like popped in. Well, you know, it
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: was kind of cold that week in Alaska. So let
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: me change my things after they took me out to
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: the scene again.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: After yeah, yeah, yeah, Doctor Rogers then described a vicious
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: end diseases life. She had suffered twelve separate wounds, including
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: deep stabs and blunt for scalp lacerations. In a detail
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: that later would fascinate students of the Bitch Butcher Baker case,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: Rogers noted that the cuts appeared to have been made
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: by knife that was sharpened on both edges, a hunter's tool.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: Which again, though everybody in Alaska is caring knife and
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: not everybody's a hunter, but like there's some serious wildlife
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: out there that you probably just should carry something.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: Ble each carries one, and I carry one in my purse.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: And you don't have bears, you know, like they got well.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: I have a mister bear, but he's a mister bear.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but no, they got like grizzlies and black bears
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: and moos and shit. They got bes right now. In
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: one of the trial's most surreal sequences, an extraordinary amount
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: of time was spent discussing sunflower seeds, the cleanliness, and
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: the sunflower seeds. I have just been stuck up now.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: The prosecution was trying to establish a biological timeline. If
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: Zzi had eaten sunflower seeds excuse me, shortly before being
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: picked up, and those seeds were found in her system
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: during the autopsy, it would in her death to a
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: very specific window of time and the window when she
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: was allegedly in Gary Zeiger's Chevy pickup. But I was
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: not able to find the doctor's full testimony about where
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: the sunflower seeds were, especially in her gastro intestinal track,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: at the time of her death, or if she was
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: actually seen eating the sunflower seeds before she disappeared, Because
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: one that would be important is that somebody who was like, yeah,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: I saw her eating them, because if you didn't, it
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I think it's very important to the theory
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: of when it occurred. Now, because you guys know me
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: so well, here's a brief Lema learns about sunflower seeds.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: So sunflower seeds generally take about two hours to leave
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: the stomach and enter the small testine. As high fat seeds,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: they are broken down relatively quickly during the gas stric
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: emptying process. However, the total digestive time from mouth to
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: colon can take much longer, with seeds often appearing in
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: waste in twenty four to twenty eight hours later. So
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: there's some interesting digestive math for you to do. I
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: need to know more these sunflower seats.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: Was she just known to carry sunflower seats? Did she like, Hey, Mom,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go hitchhike over to so and so's house
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna nibble on some seeds. Why I go there?
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: Exactly? Like what what is the relevance in Like I
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: understand like depending where they're found in her is a
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: good idea of the time between time and debt at all?
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: Where did that? Even? Where did some flower seeds even
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: come from? But yeah, like.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: Were they like, oh ye, she was mound down and
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: before she left the house, I don't know.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's like this. If I ever hear you went
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: missing from your home during a live court stream, I
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: could probably say she was eating those gummy nerd things.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I haven't even told you about my new
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: favorite snack. Oh on now that I haven't got to
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: announce to everyone my new favorite snack. If you've got
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: them for me. The other day and I took one
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: and I handed him on it. I was like, this
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: is about to be the best thing ever and he okay,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: but it and he's like, oh my god. So they
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: are caramel.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: Pop and those are all those are with. I do
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: not like your gummy nerd things. I know you, fuminem
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: caramel pops are to die for. But let me tell
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: you there's a problem with them. What's that I can
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: only have some a few, Holly. They are highly addictive,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: they are. They are very rich.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: They're so good you guys like I will never eat
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: any other kind of other eminem's garbage. And I love eminem.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: If you can eat more than three, you were better
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: than me two. I can eat two. But they're rich,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: they're so two and.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: I they're so good, you guys.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: Anyway, sidetrack, Sorry we needed it, so I listen next,
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: But no, that was what I was thinking about. The
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: sunflower seeds. Did somebody just assume she was eating them? Yeah?
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: Listen the prosecution spent a lot of time talking about
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: these sunflower seeds, but I don't know the purpose of them.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: So Sergeant Walter Gilmour took the stand. A sweater and
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: a wide brimmed leather hat were introduced, which during cross
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: the defense poked at these. Was she wearing them when
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: she vanished? How did they stay in such good condition
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: as if she was viciously assaulted.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: In a gum Very interesting, all fair question. And in
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: case you're wondering, that is all I found about Sergeant
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: Walter Gilmore's testimony on the entire trial. That's it that you.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: Knowing the clusterfuck that Alaska is. The shit is sealed.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: It will never see the light of day.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: I'm and this was all. All of this trial came
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: from newspapers dot com, like all from the newspapers, strainscripts.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: Out if they even had a court reporter. Did they
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: do that back in the seventies, I don't.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah they did, I'm pretty sure. But that's it for
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: just a lead investigator. That's weird, guys, that's weird. Now. Next,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: we're two experts from Alice Medical Laboratory, doctor Lewis Nauman
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: and Charles King, took the stand. Now they had meticulously
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: inspected Gary Zeiger's truck in early September nineteen seventy two.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: While the prosecution hoped for a definitive link to Zez Mason,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: the scientific reality was far more ambiguous.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: Is anyone surprised?
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: And yeah?
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: Doctor Nauman testified to finding a number of spots that
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: appeared to be blood. However, he admitted he could not
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: determine the blood type, the sex of the donor, or
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: even how long the blood had been there, only that
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: one specimen was likely less than a year old. Wow,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: could you not give the blood type? No?
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: Nothing, had two expert witnesses for that.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: Why did they call? How was that an expert? What
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: is he testifying to? I can't tell you anything.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's literally good. Yeah?
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: Why would the prosecution call that person?
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know now, Charles King, the other guy found
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: blood on the passenger side armrest, the kick panel.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: And window.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: Yet of all those samples, only one single spot, about
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: the size of a dime, was definitively established as human blood.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: That's it, okay, of a vicious assault. Remember that a vicious,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: vicious assault.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: The lab has used a precipit precipitant test to confirm
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: if the blood was human. Defense attorney Larry Kollik managed
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: to get the experts to admit that this test isn't
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: exclusively human.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: This is so funny.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: It returns positive results for humans and other living organism
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: one one one other living organism, the orangutane. So I
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: knew that about the orangutane rangutan? No?
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: I know. I was caught a rangutang too. And then
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: there's no genus.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: That's how you say it, just like my maiden name
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: sounds like it starts with an a, and it doesn't.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: I know, I say a rangutang all the time.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: It's a rangutane, you know. Now.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: The defense team played a brilliant tactic way Amy, Amy, No,
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: where's the English is hard? Now? By highlighting that the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: blood could technically belonged to a high primate, they enginct
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: injected an of absurdity into the proceedings, and they left
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: the jury with the impression that the science was fallible
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: and the findings were too minuscule to support a first
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: degree murder conviction the orang That is not my problem
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: with everything else. It was, Oh, it tells us nothing,
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: literally nothing.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: It tells us nothing. But while the likelihood of an
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: orangutang being in a pickup truck in Alaska, I don't
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: know why they're saying it zero. It's a wild place.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: Why the legal doubt was? What mattered? Guys, Just a
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: little break off here. They just caught a woman in Austin,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: Texas who had a lion living in an apartment. What
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: she somehow smuck and brought it over from?
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: Is it a full ass grown lion? It was? Now?
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: It wasn't when she brought it?
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: Uh huh in an apartment.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: In an apartment. I mean, I'm getting a limb and
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: say it must be one of those big bougie apartments
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: that was really big, because I'm like, gow, did it
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: not eat her? But yeah, I will find the article.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: I will put it on the discord. I'll even drop
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: it because I was like, what this was in depth?
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: This is right down the road Texas. It bought out.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Yeah, that definitely sent me that art.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: So there could be an oranguting in Alaska.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: There's crazy shit going on in Alaska.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: Why not If the state couldn't prove the blood belonged
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: to zz it was just a spot of biological material
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: on a construction worker's dashboard. Guys, he's a construction worker.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: Do you know how many bumps, bruises, scrapes, bleeding they
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: do in their vehicles.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it literally means nothing.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: It'd like basically they just told us nothing. It'd be
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: like saying we found a drop of wine on Terry's desk. Okay,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: is it wine, you know? Or is it grape juice?
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: Now, the prosecution was beyond frustrated. You don't say they
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: felt that they had the blood in the right place,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: the passenger side, and in the right vehicle, but that
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: the science of nineteen seventy two couldn't bridge the gap
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: to the victim. And that's barely one of their problems.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: They had thought they had a win since Ziger had
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: claimed he was hunting rabbits. They thought that the precipitate
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: test was successfully debunk the rabbit blood alibi. But the
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: defense successfully reframed the human blood as an unidentifal unidentifiable,
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: inconclusive smudge. They couldn't tell how reason it was. It
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: literally could come from anybody, from anywhere, at any point
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: in time.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: It was not, I mean nothing. The fact that the
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: prosecution thought that that was an expert to put on
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: the stand to baffles me. I'm just like, what were
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: you thinking? Did they go to law school? Inness in Alaska?
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: The ineptness at every level is now again, this is
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy. The science just simply isn't there.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: It wasn't.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: Let's be honest here, but to sit there and make
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: it sound to the press and everyone else like, all
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: this is gonna send somebody to prison is wild?
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: That's wild. Yeah. Up next was Michael Beaver's Gary Zeiger
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: and Ralph Keener, Kiner's boss, the guy who was supposedly
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: with Gary when they picked up some girl hitchhiking, remember that,
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: And his testimony was rapidly becoming a liability.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: The prosecution had a signed police statement from Beaver's about
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: a month after Zz's murder, where he claimed that he
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: heard that Gary had been washing his truck in Campbell
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: Creek on the very day Zz vanished. You remember those
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: tire tracks and this whole theory about that, and he
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: had claimed he heard that from Keith himself, the friend
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: that was with him, who goes by Ralph or Keith
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: or whatever. Now on the stand, Beaver's certainty about the
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: conversation evaporated. He admitted he signed the statement, but told
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: the jury it might not have been the truth. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: right now. Side note, this is not in here. Amos
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: brought this to my attention today, which is interesting because
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: she sent me a picture of this guy. She said
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: did you know this? And I said no, I didn't,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: But I had actually read the article she sent me
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: on this guy because I remembered his shirt and everything.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, he's kind of cute. But as
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: I was looking at one of the other later on victims,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: like I just saw this not that long ago, and
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: this guy had like disappeared all right, he too went missing? Dude,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: all right, he was going to like a business trip
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: thing and just disappeared. I was like, Oh, that's weird.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: But then I was like, no, Lama, we are in
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: too many rabbit holes. It has nothing to do with
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: any of this. Get back to your research.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: He's still missing. Send it to me for midday. Miss.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: You know what's crazy. Amos is like, uh did you
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: She sent me that? She was like, did you know
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: that's the Beavers guy from the trial, And I was like,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't even put it together. Yes, this guy ends
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: up going missing too. Dude, this story and everybody that's
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: involved everywhere so crazy. I could literally deal like a
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: three months about everything that is so crazy.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: No, I'm going to just tell you I didn't recover him.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: Oh I didn't. I didn't read far enough to see
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: if they found him or not. But it was a
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: big thing in the paper.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: A month in Alaska is enough for me. Now. I
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: am willing if people want to send us funds for
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: us to go to Alaska to help find people.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, genealogy DNA in nineteen eighty five. Okay, so they
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: did murdered. Yeah, I'm pretty sure murdered.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, Alaska is wild. Anyway, let me go
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: back to it.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, because they all happened like current well,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: current day in the part of the story I'm on.
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: But yeah, isn't that crazy? And you don't want to
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: you want to know what his middle name is? What's
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: his name? Michael Allison Beavers? Im sorry, I was like what,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: but I didn't connect the two at all, But I
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's interesting.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yes. Ralph Kinder's testimony was either going to lock
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: the handcuffs on Psycher or allows him to breathe fresh
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: air well exactly in the worst he was a double
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: edged sword for the State of Alaska, while the prosecution
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: viewed him as an accomplice trying to minimize his role.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: They believe take a place Gary in the exact vehicle
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: at the exact time, and place Zz Vanish, but guys
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: not so much.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: Their witnesses are also now. Kiner testified that he and
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Gary did pick up a young woman while they were
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: near the gravel pits on August twenty second, but when
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: shown photographs of Zz Mason, Kiner told the jury he
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: did not recognize her as the woman in the truck,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: and to the jury, this suggested a phantom hitchhiker, because
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: if it wasn't as easy in the truck, then the
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: state's entire timeline and their primary witness, the truck driver
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: was looking at the wrong girl. So here we have
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: their more star witness being like, I don't even know
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: if that's the girl. I don't think it is.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: Like back then, it was a thing.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: And a lot of women out there have dark hair,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of oh my god, just not doing.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: Kind of then provided Gary with a partial alibi that
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: the prosecution struggled to dismantle. He testified that the three
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: of them drove together to a fire station on Jewel
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: Lake Road, where Gary dropped him off and continued on
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: with the woman. This created a bit of a black
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: hole and allowed the fence to argue that Gary could
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: have dropped the mystery girl off safely a few blocks
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: later and gone about his day, just as many other
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: hopeful motorists might. Yes, I mean if the guy who
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: was there when you picked her up doesn't recognize.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: Her, because remember it was his girlfriend that called the cobs,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: not him, and he then he was like, I don't
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: be picked up.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: So I don't think they're still together. They lasted much
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: longer now.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: The most heated part of his testimony involved the alleged
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: truck washing incident. The troopers believed Zayger had rushed to
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: a creek to scrub away Zezi's blood. However, when Kiner
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: was asked if he saw Gary washing his truck in
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: Campbell Creek, he was very out of meant that the
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: answer was no, which would say his boss is a liar,
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: who then admitted, well, am I not have been truthful
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: what I had told the bullies?
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: M hm? He denied ever telling his boss, mister Michael
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: Allison Beavers, about such an event. I'm sorry, mister Allison Beavers.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: You need the whole name. I'm a Southern girl, which
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: snuffed out the prosecution's attempt to show consciousness of guilt.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: If there was no witness to the truck being washed,
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: there was no proof that Zagar was trying to hide
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: a crime. I hear an explosion just happening in my head.
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: This is not good. This is not looking good.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: It's almost like that if the glove does not fit,
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: you must have quit. I'm kind of hearing this same
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: kind of.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, could you imagine I.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: Did the prosecutors sharpen his pants?
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, so then the jury heard from here Hiram Matthews,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: the gravel truck driver. Now, his testimony was the only
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: thing placing zz and Zyger's vehicle. At one pm on
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: August twenty second, he said he saw a young woman
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: hitchhiking on sand Lake Road. At one twenty pm, he
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: saw her getting into a pickup truck, sitting between the
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: driver and the passenger. Okay, they're taken off. Apparently. Then
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: at four pm, several hours later, well past the thirty
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: minutes that was initially reported. He saw the same truck
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: in the remote back area of the gravel pits, the
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: exact area Zz's body would later be discovered. So now
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: the timeline's not great for them.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: Under the crash pressure of cross examination, however, Matthews admitted
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: he could not be sure there were still two people
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: in the truck at four pm. To the defense, this
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: small crack allowed their theory that Gary had already dropped
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: her off safely to breathe. Their whole case is simplue.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: It's not great.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: It's not great, but it isn't last that anything could
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: happen now.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: The prosecution then brought in a heavy hitter, special Agent
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: Donald Stengele of the FBI Crime Laboratory.
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: They're like, all right, let's get the FBI guy in here.
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: Somebody has to have something right well. Stengele confirmed what
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: the troopers had long suspected that the plus or casts
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: from the gravel pit of the tires had the same
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: tread design as the tires on Gary Ziger's truck.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: But then came the blow to the state's case. Stingle
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: testified that he could not say the tracks were definitively
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: made by those specific tires. In the world of forensics,
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: similar is not certain. It's not great.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: It's not great when the rest of your case is
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: a bunch of hubbabaloo. Ooh, that's not gonna be It's
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: not gonna be enough. Right now, After five days and
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: twenty six witnesses and a staggering one hundred and five exhibits,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: eighty A, Mackie arrested his case. Now, the sheer volume
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: of the state's evidence was designed to overwhelm any single
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: point of talent and overwhelm I don't know what that now.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: Mackie didn't have a confession or even a murder weapon,
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: so he relied on a weighted strategy.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: Strategy. So, okay, I have a question, since you're the
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: trial expert. Is weighted strategy the same as what we
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: say in the business world. If he'd throw enough, shut up,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: something will stick.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, am I in my interpretation and.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: In my mind, I'm going.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: Mmm, you over remember it's opening. Well, it'll all come together,
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: we're going together. No, that's literally just throwing. If you
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: have to say, you'll wait and see and don't I
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: guess I kind of do that.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: Let make you do it all the time, the receipts.
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: I deliver, I bring the receipts and doesn't deliver. He
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: doesn't deliver.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: No, he was just hoping they would all stick on
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: top of each other and just make a pile.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of trials are circumstantial. But nothing
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: wrong with that. But this circumstantial evidence is all heart
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: hot garbage.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: But the circumstantial evidence isn't even evidence. It is all speculation,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: like actual speculator. It's not great. Yeah. The most damning
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: physical evidence remained the tires. The state proved that Zyger's
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: truck had three tires with directional tread mounted backward, a
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: mounting pattern that perfectly matched the tracks found at the
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: gravel pit.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: Perfectly. It is not with the FBI agent said.
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: By the way, troopers had testified that blood spots and
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: drag marks were found as close as two and a
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: half feet from these specific tracks. To the state, this
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: math was simple, guys. Gary's truck had sat exactly where
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: Zizi's life had ended.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: But the state was playing a zero sum game here
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: because there was no plea for insanity or self defense.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: Gary Zeiger was either a stoned code killer or he
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: was entirely innocent. Mackie had built a labyrinth of circumstances,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: but as the prosecution stepped back, the jury was left
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: to decide if that labyrinth led to a murderer or
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: simply a reckless young man in the wrong place at
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: the wrong time. Because he admitted he was there, but
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you're there at the same time. You
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: can't say those tire tracks were that made at that time.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: I can't do any of it that two people were
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: in the truck when he came back, because maybe he
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: dropped off.
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: After he dropped the person not great.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: As the state rested, John Lawson's defense strategy became crystal clear.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: He intended to turn the pro secutions Quinkie Dinks, which
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: is also coincidence into commonality. Witnesses testified that Gary Zeiger
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: didn't just drive near the pits, he lived for them.
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: He was a nineteen year old with they four by
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: four who always liked to see where he could go
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: without getting stuck.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a whole lifestyle I don't see.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: In Texas we go mudding to see that same thing.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh, you know, of course you're going
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: to find a shit there because he was there all
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: the time. That's like finding something in your house and
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: you're like, well, yeah, I live here.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: That's like I said, fun and wine droplets in my house.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, now, I don't know how they presented all
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 2: the time, like was it raining bubble liked? But did
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: they even try that far to explain it?
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: Probably?
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 2: Not knowing what all we know about this, I do
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: not have high hopes for any.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: Because we also know someone else hung out at gravel Pits, an.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: A four by four who left bodies at gravel Pits, who.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: Left bodies and also did target I mean.
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: Now, now, if Zyger's tracks were at the pit, it
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: wasn't proof of murder, but it was proof he was
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: off roading in his own backyard, and the proximity to
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: the body was, in Larsen's narrative, a tragic coincidence in
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: a location Zyger frequently frequented for fun. And I mean, yeah, yeah,
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: it doesn't mean anything.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: It literally makes nothing, yeah, it literally. But first on
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: the stand for the defense was Paul S Donahue, a
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: witness who claimed to have seen a girl matching Zz's
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: description hitchhiking on Jewel Lake Road after two pm and
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: now after the state's witness, Haram Matthews allegedly all her
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: picked up by Gary and Ralph well time while he
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: wasn't out and now positive when shown photos of zz
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: he noted a striking similarity. Crucially, his description of her clothing,
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: the sweater and the hat matched the specific exhibits the
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: jury had been staring at for days. So he might
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: not recognize her face, but he recognized her in her clothes.
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: And it's an hour after the truck driver now. Then,
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: in a moment that sent the courtroom into a frenzy,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: Donahue suddenly refused to answer a question.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: Hey, hey, monkey butt, we can use a monkey butt.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: They're standing for really graphic.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: Donahue suddenly refused to answer a question from the prosecutor,
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: citing his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. You guys,
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: what what I wouldn't have loved to have been at
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: this trial now? Judge Moody cleared the jury immediately to
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: find out what a simple hitchhiker, citing witness could possibly
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: be guilty of. Right, this is on, Like this never
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: happens interesting, I know, I'm.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: Like, okay, I need yeah, Like what the truth was
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: a blow to the integrity of the investigation.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, you don't say they're the most.
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, it's Alaska. What investigation do they do? Anyway?
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: Donahue revealed that a week before the trial, he had
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: been called by Alaska State trooper in by a Alaska
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: State Trooper investigator, Roger Benson. Donahue, knowing Benson was a
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: friend of his brother, feared that testifying against the trooper's
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: time line would make him a target.
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: Nikes.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: Trooper Benson had told him that if he were uncertain
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: about seeing zz, he should be sure and just say
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: so in court.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 2: Yikes. Now to the defense, tampering with the witness much?
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: I remember there was already speculation about there being a
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: cover up long before this trial.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: Even Paul Patrol does better than that. That's serious, guys,
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: Paul Patrol does a better job than Alaska.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: Now, to the defense, this looked like an attempt by
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: the troopers to soften a witness who threatened their airtight case,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: also known as witness tampering. Though Dona Hugh eventually told
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: the jury the call hadn't changed his testimony, the seed
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: was planted that maybe the troopers were protecting their theory
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: not necessarily the truth.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: Oh man, what a wild day that must have been.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: I know, I'm like a man. We need to watch
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: livestream trials in Alaska if this is a shit that
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: goes down right. While Paul Donna Hughes's testimony had cracked
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: the door, Patricia Billimeck kicked it off the hinges Okay.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: As an Anchorage housewife with no connection to the fast
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: and hard crowd or the construction world, she was the
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: ultimate reliable witness.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: Now her account was devastatingly simple. She testified that she
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: had picked up a young woman she was absolutely certain
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: was Zz Mason between five and six pm on August
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: twenty second. According to the prosecution, Zz would have already
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: been dead or dying in the gravel pit by four pm. Well,
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: this is not great for their timeline.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, she is dead certain, she doesn't just think.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, these people don't fucking know any of these people.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: By the way, these still just need to let the
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: women do the real work. And I know I should
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: never say that your work but for women books. But yeah, anyway,
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: we're going to move on. Unlike other witnesses who were
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: fairly sure, Patricia bill Meck was unwavering. She had seen
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 1: Zz's photo in the Sunday Daily News on August twenty seventh,
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: the day before her body was found. When zz Remember
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: was still listed as a missing person, she hadn't been
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: tracked down by the defense. She had actually called the
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: state troopers her herself the moment she saw the newspaper,
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: intent on helping them find a girl she believed was
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: still alive. What the fuck?
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: Of course? Of course now. Prosecutor Mackie attempted to shake
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: her during a rigorous cross examination, but the codiac skeptics
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: on the jury watch as the Anchorage housewife held her ground.
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: Defense attorney Larry Kulick, So you believe this is the
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: same girl you picked up that day?
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: Are you sure of that?
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, she several times to the jury. She represented the
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: average Alaskan, someone who had no reason to lie for
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: Gary zicher. If she saw Zez at six pm, then
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: the seven hundred pounds of evidence against Gary was essentially
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: seven hundred pounds of trash.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: Now, with Bellamick's testimony, the inverted tire tracks and the
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: dime sized blood spot lost their power. If Zeezi was
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 2: alive and hitchhiking at six pm. She couldn't have been
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: the girl the truck driver saw in Gary's vehicle at
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: four pm. This left the prosecution with a terrifying possibility.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: Perhaps there were two young women hitchhiking and South Anchorage
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: that day, a very common practice in nineteen seventy two.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 2: What now, one got into Gary Zeiger's truck and, as
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: he claimed, was dropped off safely. The other woman, maybe
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: zez Mason, got into a different vehicle later that evening.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: Couldn't be.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: It couldn't be two brownhaired woman.
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, if Patricia Bilmeck's testimony kicked the door open,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: then the next two defense witnesses were going to burn
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: the room down, and I'm here for it. The prosecution's
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: theory puts the time of death of zz Mason in
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: the afternoon of August twenty second, but Deborah Watts and
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: Allen mccoller placed her at the Tudor Road Food Liner
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: store at nine pm on August twenty second.
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: Now, Deborah wasn't just guessing at a date either. She
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: anchored her memory because it was primary election day, and
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: unlike a stranger catching a glimpse on a highway or
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: in a gravel pit, she had known Zzy for several months.
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, they knew her.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: They know what she looks like, they knew her name,
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: So okay, My question.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: Is, why are they having an election primary in August?
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: You have yours way earlier than ours in like August
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: or I'm sorry, March. Different states are wild on them,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: by the way, I looked into it one time and
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, this is crazy August.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: It's Alaska.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 2: Nothing makes sense there. Okay, I don't know.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: She describes Zz's clothing with the presition with the precision
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: that match the prosecution's own evidence exhibits. Not great for them,
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: then claimed that she had cashed a check for ZZ
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: on the same August twenty second day in the courtroom.
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: This felt like the final nail in the state's coffin.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: If ZZ was buying groceries and cashing checks at nine pm,
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: then the state's four pm murder theory was just a fantasy.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not sure what, if anything she said zzbod,
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: But I am curious to know if it was sunflower seeds,
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: like is that and she bought them? Like? When are
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: we gonna find out more about these sunflower seats?
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: Because if somebody in Alaska knows about the sunflower seats?
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: Could you reach on me? No, it's very important to
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: the case. It is weed. I mean, I wish I
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: had the trial transcripts as all I'm saying. Did anybody
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: ask about the sunflower seeds? Now on cross A seemingly
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: desperate Mackie and backed by Sergeant Gilmore's investigators, scrambled to
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: perform a real time fact check. They brought in the
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: food Liner store manager, the dated ticker tape and the
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 2: actual canceled check, And the records show that check had
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: actually been cashed on August.
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: Twelveth, not the twenty seconds. Not great, So they brought
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: them in as a rebuttal witness. I'm guessing yes, yes, yes,
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: but despite the physical edits.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: The one thing they have facts for.
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: But despite the physical evidence of the check, the witness
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: remained unshakable. She didn't care about the ticker tape or
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: the manager's ledger. She looked the jury in the eye
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: and insisted she had seen zz on the twenty seconds.
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: The Koyak skeptics had to ask themselves which was more
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: reliable a bank stamp that could be misread or the
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: honest memory of a woman who knew the victim by name.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: I'm the end of all the eyewitnesses.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 2: Nobody really knew ZZ at all except for these her
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: and some other ones. Well, we're about to eat.
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 1: And if she was a friend of Zz's or she
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: knew her, she would want the person who did it
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: to go to prison. Guys, yeah, I would not be
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: doing this to get somebody off. So that's the thing.
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 1: I think it is also.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: Important exactly exactly now. The testimony of Alan mccoler was
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: the final devastating blow to the state's case. He had
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: known Zz Mason for three years, and his story put
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: a completely different set of men in the frame. His
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: description of what she was wearing matched the prosecution's exhibits perfectly,
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: reinforcing that he was indeed looking at ZZ that night.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: He I mean three years, Like, how do you get
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: that wrong?
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: He yeah, yeah. He testified that at closing time on
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: the night of August twenty second, he personally walked to
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: the front of the food Liner store to unlock the door.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: There he saw all Zz leaving the building in the
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: company of two men. When asked to look at the defendant,
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: mccallor was certain neither of those men were Gary Zeiger, ooh,
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: that's not great. And I have to ask, do you
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: know if they knew each other the last two witnesses.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they worked together and they then Allan and Deborah. Yeah,
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: they both worked at the.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: Food liner store together.
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 2: But I think Alan like went to school with her
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 2: and stuff like, so he like knew her, knew he
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: knew her, knew From what I gathered from the story
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: is that Alan was young as well and that him
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: and Zeezi were like, I think they went to school.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: So who wouldn't want her killer to get off?
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: Especially him? Yeah, okay, I would say so of the
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: two of them.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: I'm just telling you what I would be thinking as
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: a juror.
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Deborah knew her for a couple of months
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: from her coming into the store, but like Alan didn't
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 2: know her, know her, you know what I mean? But
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: Alan knew her, knew her. And yeah, you're like, I'm
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: two men, Wait what well I have my theory is
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: that Robert didn't act alone all of the time. Oh,
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: but the fact is is that that is really that's
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 2: a punch in the face on the crusts in my
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: book as a witness like that is a very.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: Solid Yeah, I would have hung the jury with that.
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, if nobody wanted to come my way. Yeah.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: Now, Prosecutor Maggie thought he had a gotcha moment, because
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 2: of course he did. He showed him the store's financial
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 2: records in that in the check Zzi had written on
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: the twelfth, to show that he too was wrong about
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 2: seeing her that night, But.
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: Alan didn't flinch. In a moment of raw, honest testimony
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: that resonated with the jury, he admitted his mistake without
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: letting it break his certainty. I definitely saw her on
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: the twenty second. I told the police I took a
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: check that night, but I was wrong about that, right.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, just because you're wrong about one kid part
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: of it that's.
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: Been normally you remember to check from this date and
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: then she came in again. I mean.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 2: Now, by admitting he was wrong about the paperwork but
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: definite about the person, Alan made himself more believable. He
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 2: wasn't a robot repeating a script. He was a man
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 2: who remembered looking his friend in the eye as he
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: let her out of the store five hours after the
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: prosecution claimed she was already dead. I mean that's pretty powerful.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: It's not great but get ready.
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: The most shocking revelation for the jury was that the
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: police never followed up.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: For the jury is shocking for us? That sounds about right.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: It sounds like Alaska. Both missus Watts and mister Kohler
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: had told the troopers about seeing ziz on the night
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: of the twenty second early in the investigation. Mm hm,
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: those two It's like Patty Roberts all over again. People
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: just aren't listening now.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 2: The troopers, however, had already found their inverted tires and
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: their hards suspecting Gary Zeiger. And because Deborah and Allen
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: didn't fit the Zyger killed her at four PM theory,
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: so their statements were essentially buried. They were the inconvenient
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: witnesses that the state had hoped would simply go away.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: But they didn't. They did.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 2: And again, if you knew her, why would you testify
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 2: for the defense.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: And that's what I'm saying, why would you want?
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, you don't really have a choice. If they
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: call you and spinning, you have to show you. But
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 2: but they called the cops early on.
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: It's not like the defense has found them later. They
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: called early on. Yeah. The testimony also turned the spot
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 1: like back on doctor, doctor Rogers, the pathologists. If the
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: witnesses were right, then his handwritten correction claiming the cold
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: gravel had slowed decomposition was a convenient adjustment to help
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: the troopers fit a square peg into a round hold hole.
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: That's a cover up. But if Zizi was alive on
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: the twenty second, she had survived the window of Zyger's involvement,
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: she had slipped through the fingers of the loud suspect
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: and into the arm of someone else.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: Now, the climax of the trial and Kodiak wasn't a
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 2: forensic report or a piece of physical evidence. It was
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: the man himself. The courtroom transformed into a vacuum of
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: silence as Gary Zeiger walked to the witness stand, the
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 2: hard and fast construction worker, the man with a vicious reputation,
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: was finally going to speak. Oh man, this child is wild.
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: That is the bullion.
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: What is hard and fast for a nineteen year old male.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 2: No, you're doing guns and.
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: Girls. I live breaking the sexes, and I would explain
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: all nineteen year old males almost that way. I don't know.
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 2: The seventies are weird.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I was born. Then maybe. But defense
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 1: attorney John Larson didn't lead his client through a long
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: winding narrative. He went straight for the heart of the matter.
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: Did you kill zz Mason? Gary? No, I did not.
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: The response wasn't a shout or a sob, It was
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: a It was delivered in a firm, quiet voice. For
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: the jury, this was their first real look at the
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: man behind the psychopath label the troopers had provided. We
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: will continue off.
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: He didn't shut the door in the windows and taking
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 2: my I don't want to rip my screen door off.
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, of your back.
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: Prosecutor Mackie took a combative stance in his cross examination.
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: He wasn't looking for facts though, he was looking for
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: a reaction. He wanted the vicious Ziger to snap and
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: the pressure and show the jury the monster the state
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: claimed he was. When Gary calmly stated he didn't recognize
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: snapshots of Zz alive, Mackie shoved a bloody color photo
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: of her body in front of him. Take a close
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: look at this? Do you know her? But Gary didn't flinch.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: He looked at the grisly image and repeated his quiet denial. No,
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: I do not. How awful.
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 2: Now, Mackie hammered away at the two and a half
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: foot gap. The proximity of Zyger's unique tire tracks to
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 2: the blood and drag marks in the pit. He pushed
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 2: Gary on the human blood in his truckma In a
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: moment of unex inspected humility that likely resonated with the
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 2: blue collar Kodiak jury, Gary pushed back against Mackie's aggressive
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: legal phrasing, saying I'm not as educated as you. I
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 2: can't follow that question, which mackiew said, Oh, come on,
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 2: mister Zeiger, you're doing a fine job answering of these questions.
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's how you said it, but
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna make them sound focus.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: The judge Moody had to step in to keep the
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: two from a physical or verbal confrontation. Gary immediately apologized
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: to the court, presenting an image of a respectable of
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: unrefined man much different than that of a stone cold killer.
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 1: Narrative Mackie was pushing.
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: Now for closing arguments, Prosecutor Mackie didn't focus on the
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: seven hundred pounds of physical evidence that they brought two
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 2: hundred fifty that they made important for five days.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 3: No.
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 2: Instead, he pointed to a small, unobtrusive exchange from Gary
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 2: Zeiger's own testimony, Excuse me, mackiew argued that Gary's memory
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 2: was too convenient. He remembered times, people, and weather with precision,
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 2: yet was uncertain about driving in the exact spot where
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: the body was found, compared to everybody else's memory.
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: But okay, I mean, I just want to know from
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: those watching and listening, how many of you have parked
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: your car at the grocery store and forgot where you
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: parked your car?
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 2: Not me, but beat us all the time.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 2: One of us have to be in charge of life,
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 2: and it's me all.
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: Even Amy. So I'm like, yeah, not remembering exactly if
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: you come on people, I mean I recently put milk
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: in the pantry.
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm not that great about memories either,
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 2: especially one day that listen also if it was not
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: a significant day for him, because why would you remember it?
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 1: And he was there all the time. And that's why
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: I can't remember at the grocery store. You go all
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: the time. It's not a significant events.
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 2: Like some things when it comes to like people's memory
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: on trial, right, like I do get people to my
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: memory is not the greatest nobody's is. But then there
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 2: are certain things where it's like anybody would remember that
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 2: shut up, you know, But I don't feel like this
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 2: was actually one of these things, right exactly.
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 1: Mackie then stacked the case on the truck washing theory.
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: He told the jurors if they believe the tire tracks
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 1: in the creek belonged to Gary despite his denial, then
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 1: they had the right to conclude the defendants was a liar,
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: and if he lied about the creek, he had lied
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: about the killing Betty.
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, now. John Larson went for the jugular
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: jugular of the state's timeline by putting the investigation itself
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: on trial. He reminded the jury that the pathologist's original
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: opinion still suggested zz had only been dead for forty
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 2: eight hours when found a timeline that would completely exonerate
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 2: Gary Zeiger. And I said exonerate because he had a great,
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 2: solid alibi for that timeframe. I just didn't go into
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: detail about it, but I mean, that's right. Remember at
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 2: the very beginning, they were like, she didn't die here,
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: she was right here. Joffre is only blah blah blah blah. Long.
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: Larson's strongest card remained the witnesses like Deborah Watts and
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 1: Alan McCuller. If zz was alive at nine pm. The
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: state's case was just weak. It was literally impossible. He
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: acknowledged the brutality of the murder, but delivered a final
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: warning to the jury. There's only one thing which could
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: be worse, and that is to convict an innocent man.
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 2: And after eight days of high tension testimony, the fate
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: of Gary Ziger was placed into the hands of twelve
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 2: Kodiak residents. Judge Moody ordered the jury sequestered, cutting them
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: off from the world until they could answer a single question.
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: Was Gary Ziger a murderer or a man caught in
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: a circumstantial nightmare? Also, let us know in the comments
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 2: are in chat when you're feeling it's okay. If you
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 2: don't agree with us, it's fine.
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: Let us let us know. I funny bowl shiny ball moments.
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: Is the Kodiak bear named after Kodiak Alaska? I was
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: a Kodiak Alaska named after the bear?
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a fine, good question. Sorry, I don't know.
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: My little add brain.
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 2: I'm like, wait a minute, which way which I want
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: to find out?
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: I think Gary because I know about Gary. I think
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 1: he's not a great person. I do not think he
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: is guilty. I don't. They have given me so much
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: reasonable doubt you could drive my fat ass.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: Right thinking somebody who's not guilty doesn't mean they're innocent.
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 1: But this is a fucking.
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 2: Joke, like what what? But hold on, We'll continue on
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 2: and I'll say more of that. Actually, you know, I
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 2: bet Kodiak is named after the Kodiak. The word Kodiak
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 2: sounds like an Indigenous word, and so it's probably the
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 2: name of the bear. And then they named the town
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: after that.
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 1: I need to know. Bears are all over the place. Lama,
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: learn miracle and get me well.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 2: I will. I will get back to you and update you.
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 2: Y I missed your you're doing God, I haven't seen
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 2: you in so long.
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 1: I hope you're well. He's super smart. Lady. I need
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: you to promise me something right now, and I need
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: you to put it in the chat that you will
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: agree you will never do a show in Alaska unless
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: Lama and I go with you, because this place is
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 1: not for women and you need someone to have your
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: back and to keep you safe. Am I wrong?
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 3: Lama?
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 2: No, that's one of the that's way better than I thought.
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 2: Whatever you could have buzzily asked, so yeah, now, but.
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: Chat Lama was like, oh shit, where's here you going?
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: I know? Right? The curious c libration was relatively brief,
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: longer than the Corey richins that's true. That is true,
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: lasting only six hours. So however, okay, we're gonna get
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 1: back to that, Laney. However, a late night session revealed
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: exactly where the battle was won in Lass. The jury
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 1: foreman requested to hear the testimony of the two defense witnesses,
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: Patricia Billmeck and Alan mccoler one more time.
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 2: Patricia was the woman who said she picked her up
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 2: for hitchhiking her friend from me.
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: And he knew her for three years, went to school. Yes,
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 1: one female.
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: Wait now Patricia worked at this? No, Deborah worked at it?
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: You ever worked at the store?
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 2: Patricia picked her up? Okay, sorry, there's a lot of things.
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: Hey, Laney, could you email me Terry at Tcwtmedia dot
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 1: com that information, Because girl, I go to Dallas all
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: the time, and I will go there to see you.
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: I know where Capellas lived, right down the road. I
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 1: will go there to see you and then we will
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 1: send pictures and make lamas jealous.
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 2: You'll make me so jealous. I'm a huge Just hide
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 2: beyond the chemrat.
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: Maybe she'll give me permission to let me live stream it. Relamis.
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 1: One female jury was reportedly the holdout. I told you
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: all it was going to be me needing to be
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: absolutely certain of what she heard.
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Okay, oh sorry. The heavy
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 2: silence of the Kodiak courtroom was finally broken after nearly
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 2: five months of incarceration. This was a speedy trial, yo,
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 2: and a trial yeah, and a trial that pushed the
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 2: Alaska State Troopers to their absolute limit. The jury returned
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 2: with a decision that would send shockwaves from the Gulf
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 2: of Alaska back to this streets of Anchorage.
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: The clerk read the words not guilty on all three
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 1: counts of first degree murder. As the words not guilty
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 1: echoed in the courtroom, the tension that had gripped the
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: Zyger family for months finally snapped. Gary's parents, George and
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: his wife, rushed to the defense table. It was a
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 1: scene of a terry moments. It does say terry moments.
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 1: Hugs and handshakes for the Zigers. The system had almost
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 1: crushed an innocent man for the prosecution, a killer had
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 1: just walked out the front door. I resemble that remark.
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 2: You can tell Lama has all sorts of typeos in
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 2: this one. I must have been watching something and Will
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: typing or something.
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 1: We were probably talking and chatting.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 2: Somewhere knows now. The most honest assessment of the trial
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 2: came from a male juror speaking to the Daily News
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 2: after the jurors were dismissed. Quote, we just don't think
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 2: that they the state proved he did it. He may
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 2: have done it, but it wasn't I proved to us,
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 2: and I agree.
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: I agree. Are you getting another drink?
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 2: No? Oh, I just let the dogs out.
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, I just thought I heard that.
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 2: Was my screen door trying to open because of how cold.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: Man after what the statement captures the tragedy of the
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 1: Zz Mason case. The jury didn't necessarily believe Gary Zeyger
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 1: was a saint. They simply believe the state's air type
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: case was full of holes. By failing to account for
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 1: the witnesses who saw Zz alive at nine p the
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 1: troopers had basically handed the defense the ultimate weapon, the
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 1: truth of a timeline I'm sorry them not calling or
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 1: investigating them. They stealed the deal. They did.
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 2: They did now. The acquittal of Gary Ziger was a
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 2: catastrophic failure for Alaska law enforcement because they were so
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 2: certain their gut instincts. Remember what Sergeant Gilmore said, Oh
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 2: I knew it? My good who's this guy? Since they
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 2: were so certain the Ziger was their man, they neglected
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: to follow other leads. When he was acquitted, there was
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 2: no plan. B Anchorage was left with a terrifying reality.
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 2: The Zezmason's killer was still out there and the troopers
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 2: had no idea who he was. Was it the same
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 2: person responsible for Zeezi, who was responsible for the murders
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 2: of Beth Van Santon and Shirley Anne Jonas. Was there
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 2: a serial killer on the loose?
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 1: I mean there was. I mean I'm going to just
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 1: go on the record and say right now, yes, and
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 1: there still is in Alaska today. The acquittal in Kodiaka
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 1: didn't lead to a quiet life for Gary Zyger. Instead,
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 1: it seemed to serve as a green light for descent
• 2:17:35
  Speaker 1: into even darker, more organized criminality. The vicious reputation the
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 1: troopers had sided in court proved to be a self
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy.
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 2: Now embolded, Emboldened by his victory over the state, Zyger
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 2: drove headlong into the gritty underworld of Spinard. He wasn't
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 2: just a suspect and crimes of passion anymore. He became
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 2: a player and the violent power struggles of the Anchorage
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 2: vice scene. Yeah we told you he's not a good.
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 1: Guy, guys, but I said, I don't think he did.
• 2:18:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think he killed CZ.
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: I don't think I killed because it doesn't go with
• 2:18:18
  Speaker 1: what his stuff is. Gary was implicated in the cold
• 2:18:23
  Speaker 1: blooded execution of Johnny Rich and move designed to seize
• 2:18:28
  Speaker 1: control of Rich Spinnard's massage parlor. His name was linked
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: to an even more high profile hits, the murders of
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: the wife and step son of a prominent Anchorage nightclub owner.
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 2: He wanted money, Yeah, it's all about money and power.
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying people that want they come from money
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 2: and power. Obviously wouldn't kill a woman for that. It's
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 2: just everything about Zz's case actually matches up more with
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 2: Robert Hanson than those games. So now Gary had moved
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 2: from a person of interest to a professional liability. He
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 2: was no longer just a danger to hitchhikers, he was
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 2: a danger to the established order of the Anchorage underworld.
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 2: As the troopers meticulously prepared a new case to put
• 2:19:17
  Speaker 2: Zyger away for good, the streechs of Anchorage decided not
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 2: to wait for a jury this time.
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 1: On November twenty seventh, nineteen seventy three, at mile one
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: ten the Seaward Highway, ironically just a short distance from
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 1: where Beth van Zetten's body had been discovered years earlier,
• 2:19:41
  Speaker 1: Gary Sager was found sprawled on the pavement, his life
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 1: ended by a fatal gunshot blast to the stomach. The
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 1: clinical precision of the hit and the choice of the
• 2:19:52
  Speaker 1: location pointed to a contract killer in the wild Frontier
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 1: of nineteen seven Anchorage. Someone had decided that Gary Seiger
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 1: was two killings too many.
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 2: Now, the story of what all happened after the trial
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 2: was over for Gary is absolutely fucking wild. Okay, it
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 2: is crazy, But I'm not allowed to make this series
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 2: longer than I already have.
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 1: I've been told that.
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 2: So if you would like to hear about that tale,
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 2: and trust me, you do, because Amos, instead of joining
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 2: us for our Marvel Marathon, was messaging me last night,
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 2: Wtf did you know about this? And I was like, yeah, girl,
• 2:20:38
  Speaker 2: I told everybody, if they want to know about it,
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 2: let me know, and I will do bonus episodes in
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 2: the future.
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 1: We can always do bonus at the sub Guys. Let
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: me just be clear. I'm not trying to no, no, no,
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 1: I'm the short of the story. I'm just trying to
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 1: fit it all into March because I'm gonna be having surgery.
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 2: That's true, and April tyrant and.
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 1: We need to do it, and we can do some
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 1: follow up episodes in May because I need it.
• 2:21:04
  Speaker 2: But honestly, like his murder, what he did, and it
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 2: is just as crazy as everything, even crazier, even crazier,
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 2: like it's it's nuts. So if you want to hear that,
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 2: let us know in the comments or the chat, and
• 2:21:21
  Speaker 2: we'll add it to our bonus. I mean, yeah, like
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 2: I said, he is a shit bag. Okay, he is,
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 2: he is, But I don't again, just because you think
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 2: somebody's a ship bag doesn't make him guilty of that murder.
• 2:21:35
  Speaker 2: And that's not the right thing to do right now.
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 2: As I said, if you want to hear it, you do,
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 2: you absolutely. If you're like man, mama, hasn't let me
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 2: down so far in this story, it does get worse
• 2:21:47
  Speaker 2: than crazy. It gets way crazier with him, it's not
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 2: don't you.
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: Just get busy doing some bonus episodes and schedule them.
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 2: Well, and there's the Beavers guy, his old boss, like
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 2: there's crazy stuff.
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 1: Was that we're going to need to go back to Alaska.
• 2:22:04
  Speaker 2: I don't just gonna be honest, We're gonna end up
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 2: gone back to Alaska. Yeah, because it's.
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 1: And just so you know, there's some new Zizzeyan news out.
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: You're gonna need to do a bonus episode on thy end.
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 1: You need to because I was reading that this weekend
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh amma, I haven't.
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 2: I am not at all up today.
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Stop.
• 2:22:24
  Speaker 2: Nope, not until I'm done writing all the rest of
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 2: the episodes. Don't send me anything, don't do it.
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 1: Don't do it, Okay. I love to do what I'm
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 1: told not to do so. In his later confessions a
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 1: decade later, Hansen was notoriously selective on which murders he
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 1: would admit to. He admitted to the easy murders, the
• 2:22:50
  Speaker 1: ones where the bodies were found with evidence that he
• 2:22:53
  Speaker 1: knew pointed at him, and he only admitted to the
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: murdering of sex workers, but not any respectable women quotes.
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 2: That's end quotes. Just the listeners know respectable quotes women.
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 1: If we stay respectable and has anything to hands and.
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 2: Just know, just know it's all. It's literally end quotes
• 2:23:16
  Speaker 2: our writings.
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 1: He was much more guarded about what is widely to
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 1: believe some of his earliest victims, perhaps fearing that admitting
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 1: to the South Side slangs would prove that he had
• 2:23:31
  Speaker 1: been a monster much longer than anyone realized. But the
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 1: terry of momael my gut tells me trust.
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 2: Your Oh yeah, well, well, Sergeant Walter Gilmore trusted his
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 2: and he was wrong. But you know, I'll trust mine
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 2: because my intends to be right quite a lot more
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 2: than him. I do believe that bear were murders in
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 2: his younger years in the Midwest, and I just want
• 2:24:01
  Speaker 2: to say, if Robert Hanson was the real killer, then
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 2: Gary Zeiger's acquittal was the best thing that ever happened
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 2: to him, because it didn't just free one man, okay,
• 2:24:14
  Speaker 2: and effectively closed the cases of Beth Van Santen, Shirley Jonas,
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 2: and zz Mason's in the eyes of the law for years,
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 2: allowing the real Butcher Baker to vanish back into his bakery.
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 2: Because guess what they didn't do. Guys, I know you're
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 2: all shocked. You're also shocked when I'm about to say this.
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 2: They didn't bother looking into any of those anymore and
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 2: whatsoever even after even after That's what is just because
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 2: they don't want to fucking admit their mistakes.
• 2:24:52
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Have you noticed that we haven't had one
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 1: single female trooper? Yeah, mistakes, yees. We'll tell you this.
• 2:25:03
  Speaker 1: Every time I go to a bakery now I'm going
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 1: to be looking at the baker with weird eyes, just
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 1: saying to be like like her, Chrisade, but what do
• 2:25:13
  Speaker 1: you do? Right? Well, guys. Next time on True Crime
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 1: and Wine Times Frozen Fear, which will be on Wednesday night,
• 2:25:21
  Speaker 1: so today is Monday. We're also doing it on Wednesday
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 1: and then against on Thursday. So the Butcher Baker of
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 1: Alaska series, we continue delving into the heart of the
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 1: Silent decade, where the transition from a rehabilitated and that
• 2:25:39
  Speaker 1: is some big ass quotes. I can't even get them
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 1: on camera. They're so big, right, citizen to a calculating
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 1: ghost becomes complete.
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 2: We're going to begin on the fourth of July weekend
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy three, well the rest of Alaska celebrates,
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 2: Hansen secures official permission from his parole officer to take
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 2: his boat to Seaward. He claims it's a solitary fishing trip,
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 2: but as the fireworks fade, seventeen year old Megan Emmerick
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 2: vanishes from a dormitory laundry room at the Seaward Skill Center.
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 2: We'll explore how a Yukon girl who knew the woods
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 2: could be lured away by a man who spoke her
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 2: language the language of the hunt, but.
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: The silence only grows. We'll follow the trail into nineteen
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 1: seventy five, when Hansom returns to those same waters. We'll
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 1: tell the story of Mary Kathleen Phil, a twenty two
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 1: year old wife waiting for her husband to return from
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 1: the pipeline who disappears in broad daylight near a Seward waterfall.
• 2:27:02
  Speaker 1: Was she the victim of a predator who couldn't resist
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 1: her red hair, or just another X on a map
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 1: that the ocean was designed to hide?
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 2: And then will also, because of course there's more, we'll
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 2: recount the Jane Doe who fought back a dancer with
• 2:27:24
  Speaker 2: a double life who looked Hanson in the eye and
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 2: gave the police his license plate and his description, only
• 2:27:34
  Speaker 2: to be silenced by a legal system and protected the
• 2:27:38
  Speaker 2: predator more than the prey unless it was Gary Zeiger.
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 2: Then they were like, Nope, that motherfucker did it.
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 1: And guys, this is the reason that I was like,
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 1: we got to do this on Wednesday and not Tuesday,
• 2:27:50
  Speaker 1: because I've got lots to say about the shenanigans that
• 2:27:55
  Speaker 1: go down. Guys, it is like a bad novel because
• 2:28:00
  Speaker 1: they say truth is stranger than fiction. We are getting
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 1: it gets worse, people, It gets worse.
• 2:28:08
  Speaker 2: Honestly, what we're covering is like all the stuff you
• 2:28:11
  Speaker 2: don't hear about in the documentary, the documentaries and stuff
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 2: like only want to talk about his nineteen eighties.
• 2:28:18
  Speaker 1: I know, I watched the documentary.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 2: Uh oh, we're going to at that what you did.
• 2:28:26
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go back and get a screenshot
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 1: of that fight. Leebel witness the bizarre nineteen seventy six
• 2:28:36
  Speaker 1: chainsaw incident at fred Meyer. Oh my gosh, it was
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 1: a shoplifting charge that he that did what a decade
• 2:28:45
  Speaker 1: of violence couldn't guys. It stripped away the meek baker mask.
• 2:28:52
  Speaker 1: But as the law closed one door, Hanson opened another
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 1: by purchasing a Piper super cub oh plane if you
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 1: didn't know, in preparing to take his hunt from the
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 1: roadside to the sky, to water the sky. Join us
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 1: for Part six, The Silent Decade nineteen seventy three through
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, The Seaward Marks make an emeric and
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 1: Mary Kathleen Bill.
• 2:29:27
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, Now, before I go into my carefully crafted
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 2: closing thoughts, at the beginning, I told you all, hey,
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 2: we're we're going to talk about this thing that actually
• 2:29:40
  Speaker 2: doesn't really have a law to do with Robert Hansen,
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 2: but it's really important in the grand scheme of things.
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 2: And so after listening to all of this trial, I
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 2: hope I wanted to really dive deep into this to
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 2: show you the ineptness from all points of view. The
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 2: investigation didn't do a good job at all. The prosecution
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 2: didn't do a good job at all. It didn't really
• 2:30:08
  Speaker 2: matter who at the time they even put up there
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 2: that they wanted to rush the judgment. They were willing
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 2: to throw somebody on the bus under with no evidence.
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 2: And the reason why I want to point that out
• 2:30:21
  Speaker 2: is because that shit happens all the time, all right,
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 2: But how many times have we heard so far? And
• 2:30:26
  Speaker 2: we're gonna hear more where Robert Hanson is basically giving
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 2: ail get out of jail free card, allowed to walk
• 2:30:33
  Speaker 2: do whatever he wants, when we have proof he has
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 2: been charged with harming women, kidnapping them, assaulting them with
• 2:30:42
  Speaker 2: a gun, raping them. And they're like, Nope, it's fine,
• 2:30:46
  Speaker 2: including the investigators and the state who do that. But
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 2: yet Gary, they're gonna go with the easy path.
• 2:30:53
  Speaker 3: M hm.
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 1: I did they just not look at Robert Hanson because
• 2:30:58
  Speaker 1: he made their donuts?
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 2: I know that is because their donuts, because he was
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: looking and cutting it.
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 1: Listen.
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know if Gary did it or not. I
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 2: don't think he did. I think he's actually factually innocent
• 2:31:13
  Speaker 2: of that guy. I think he's I don't have the trial.
• 2:31:15
  Speaker 2: I don't have the trial transcripts. Okay, all my information
• 2:31:20
  Speaker 2: I got was from the papers. And let me tell
• 2:31:22
  Speaker 2: you what those papers wanted Gary to be it. Okay,
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 2: the police obviously wanted to They fed the media CONSI you.
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: Would think the two people who knew her would have
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 1: wanted it to be him. So that's what I'm saying.
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 1: These are two people. They had nothing to gain by
• 2:31:39
  Speaker 1: letting a person that they knew Skiller get away.
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 2: But because they wanted to cover their own asses and
• 2:31:47
  Speaker 2: go after Gary literally, Beth Surely and Zez, nothing gave
• 2:31:55
  Speaker 2: any of them justice because a bunch of fucking bullshit
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 2: where people are still too proud fifty years later to
• 2:32:03
  Speaker 2: admit that they were blind and fucked up. And that's
• 2:32:08
  Speaker 2: disgusting even after learning. I mean, listen, I didn't I
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 2: didn't try to manipulate the story to make it look
• 2:32:16
  Speaker 2: like Robert Hansen. If you have half a brain, it's
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 2: very obvious, all right, everything is tailtale from beginning, ton't. You.
• 2:32:24
  Speaker 2: Guys may not know it yet because you don't know
• 2:32:25
  Speaker 2: the story, but I do. And trust me, at the end,
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 2: you're going to be like, oh my god, Like it's
• 2:32:30
  Speaker 2: not even like you're gonna.
• 2:32:32
  Speaker 1: Do what Monday Morticuter said he was going to do. Yes,
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 1: he was going to make it all come together. Just
• 2:32:38
  Speaker 1: wait for the end. But Lama, you are going to
• 2:32:42
  Speaker 1: back up what you're saying, because guess what, we wouldn't
• 2:32:44
  Speaker 1: be doing the story if you didn't.
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 2: No, I mean these were so when we did the
• 2:32:51
  Speaker 2: first episode, we wrote it well bad, and Gray researched it,
• 2:32:56
  Speaker 2: and then I wrote it, and then I was looking
• 2:32:57
  Speaker 2: in for some more information. And this was all the
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 2: sort of stuff the last couple of episodes that I
• 2:33:03
  Speaker 2: was stumbling on that I was like, holy fucking shitear.
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 1: Wait for you to the Midwest and start research and
• 2:33:13
  Speaker 1: murders there.
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 2: Like it's just it's just, it's so. I have never
• 2:33:18
  Speaker 2: We've covered a lot of cases. I've covered a lot
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 2: of cases before we met, like well covered like researching,
• 2:33:23
  Speaker 2: and I'm a huge, huge nerd, and I have never
• 2:33:27
  Speaker 2: had a case that literally pisses me off. Every single set,
• 2:33:32
  Speaker 2: like it is so disappointing, and listen.
• 2:33:35
  Speaker 1: Keeps getting worse.
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 2: It literally keeps getting worse.
• 2:33:39
  Speaker 1: It's not even keep bad and that's it. This just no.
• 2:33:46
  Speaker 2: And then we had decided to watch Lost Women of
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 2: Alaska on Sunday, something that took place in twenty nineteen
• 2:33:56
  Speaker 2: sixteen somewhere around there, not that long ago, and literally
• 2:34:02
  Speaker 2: every single thing was still the same. You guys go
• 2:34:06
  Speaker 2: literally have literally learned nothing. They got all that and
• 2:34:12
  Speaker 2: y'all are going to be pissed, all right, Like Daria
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 2: and I were raging because we was the whole time.
• 2:34:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking, oh, this is all horrible, all right,
• 2:34:25
  Speaker 2: Everything about Hanson, from beginning to end, is just unbelievable.
• 2:34:29
  Speaker 2: But surely, surely we'd have to have learned something, right,
• 2:34:34
  Speaker 2: Surely no.
• 2:34:36
  Speaker 1: Stevens learned something. So if you go watch the women
• 2:34:39
  Speaker 1: in Alaska, another killer learned something from Robert Hanson that
• 2:34:44
  Speaker 1: the police didn't learn. And that is what is sickening
• 2:34:49
  Speaker 1: to me. And that's what kind of pushed me over
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 1: the edge.
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 2: And they're still making their own fucking excuses for their bullshit. Yeah,
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 2: govern their own asses, and it's ridiculous, And I'm so
• 2:34:59
  Speaker 2: over alessed brands, so over them.
• 2:35:02
  Speaker 1: It's so nobody go to Alaska. Nobody.
• 2:35:05
  Speaker 2: It's so infuriating.
• 2:35:07
  Speaker 1: No, it's not safe. And if you've got brown hair,
• 2:35:10
  Speaker 1: if you've got not lily white skin, and if you
• 2:35:13
  Speaker 1: happen to be a sex worker, you're screwed.
• 2:35:16
  Speaker 2: Listen, even obviously right now, we just showed you too.
• 2:35:20
  Speaker 2: In the seventies, didn't matter who the fuck you word,
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 2: if you're a woman, they don't care. They don't care
• 2:35:25
  Speaker 2: they don't care. It doesn't matter. But anyway, I really
• 2:35:30
  Speaker 2: wanted to tell the trial of Gary Zeyeger. I do
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 2: want to tell you guys more of a story because
• 2:35:34
  Speaker 2: it is nuts, But I just wanted to show that,
• 2:35:39
  Speaker 2: you know what, even if they had gotten Hanson, what
• 2:35:43
  Speaker 2: would they have said, like what, look at what we're
• 2:35:45
  Speaker 2: dealing with here, Look at the end efnies from beginning
• 2:35:48
  Speaker 2: to end, the fact that the prosecutor like, I can't
• 2:35:53
  Speaker 2: my brain look at.
• 2:35:54
  Speaker 1: What they already did with Ansen. Yeah, they let.
• 2:35:58
  Speaker 5: Him and they didn't even look at him, a sex
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 5: predator in a halfway house that just got out of prison,
• 2:36:07
  Speaker 5: and you don't think to yourself, maybe he kidnapped this
• 2:36:11
  Speaker 5: girl with a gun like he did the other ones
• 2:36:13
  Speaker 5: that we know of, start.
• 2:36:15
  Speaker 1: With those known Oh, Savage says, we're not the boss.
• 2:36:21
  Speaker 1: I'm Savage going I'm not. Well, you know what, Savage,
• 2:36:24
  Speaker 1: you can go to Alaska.
• 2:36:26
  Speaker 2: They're coming with us because the best.
• 2:36:28
  Speaker 1: Of my knowledge, you're not a female. And I'll be
• 2:36:32
  Speaker 1: like ye, so go ahead, you're safe there, send my billionaire.
• 2:36:39
  Speaker 2: What was I watching last night Savage that I was like, Oh,
• 2:36:41
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have the tone to change. I was watching
• 2:36:44
  Speaker 2: I was watching Guardians of the Galaxy the last night.
• 2:36:46
  Speaker 2: I can't remember what the.
• 2:36:48
  Speaker 1: Is that the one with the raccoon.
• 2:36:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, but I have a new name suggestion when
• 2:36:54
  Speaker 2: we get there, for you don't change your name yet,
• 2:36:55
  Speaker 2: I'll have genius billionaire. It's a whole marvel thing we're on.
• 2:36:59
  Speaker 2: Don't worry about it, Terry.
• 2:37:00
  Speaker 1: You're not around with the snow mea savage unless.
• 2:37:06
  Speaker 2: But anyway, So that's why this episode was really told
• 2:37:10
  Speaker 2: the whole way through, is just to show that it
• 2:37:14
  Speaker 2: wasn't just handsome specific like, they really dropped the ball everywhere,
• 2:37:20
  Speaker 2: and they dropped the ball for all of these women
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 2: even then, and they didn't have they had too much
• 2:37:26
  Speaker 2: pride to go back and try to do the right thing.
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 2: But let me go into my much better crafted Oh
• 2:37:36
  Speaker 2: keep hit.
• 2:37:37
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what was that?
• 2:37:40
  Speaker 2: I was like, Oh my god, don't let me lose
• 2:37:41
  Speaker 2: power anyway, all right, some my actual closing thoughts when
• 2:37:44
  Speaker 2: I wrote when I wasn't so angry. So the most
• 2:37:50
  Speaker 2: profound failure of the Zyger trial wasn't that they had
• 2:37:54
  Speaker 2: the wrong man. It was that they had the right
• 2:37:58
  Speaker 2: type of man and stopped looking. They were so focused
• 2:38:04
  Speaker 2: on the inverted track in the mud that they missed
• 2:38:08
  Speaker 2: the predator in the bakery who was learning how to
• 2:38:11
  Speaker 2: leave no tracks at all. And these will be words
• 2:38:14
  Speaker 2: you'll hear from himself later. And investigators were playing a
• 2:38:20
  Speaker 2: game of checkers when an actual is it beautiful eyes? Yeah,
• 2:38:27
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I think that's his actual picture.
• 2:38:29
  Speaker 2: I did you not think so? You never know? Oh,
• 2:38:34
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, yeah, I think that.
• 2:38:35
  Speaker 1: I try not to assume that's fair.
• 2:38:38
  Speaker 2: That's fair anyway, So investigators were playing a game of
• 2:38:43
  Speaker 2: checkers with a stone cold psychopath, while Robert Hansen was
• 2:38:49
  Speaker 2: playing a game of chess with the entire state of Alaska.
• 2:38:54
  Speaker 2: We look back at the feud between the coroner and
• 2:38:57
  Speaker 2: the troopers, the clinical ambuguity, ambiguity, I don't look at
• 2:39:04
  Speaker 2: that nailed it this time, of the autopsy reports and
• 2:39:09
  Speaker 2: the bureaucratic dead zones of the halfway houses, and we
• 2:39:13
  Speaker 2: see a system that was more interested in its own
• 2:39:17
  Speaker 2: procedures than the reality of a serial killer. They treated
• 2:39:23
  Speaker 2: these women like puzzle pieces with no meaning until the
• 2:39:27
  Speaker 2: end of a trial, while they're families. The Masons and
• 2:39:31
  Speaker 2: by the way, we may have left and mocked uh
• 2:39:35
  Speaker 2: Gary's trial. The poor Masons. Oh, after that fact, we
• 2:39:40
  Speaker 2: did not talk about them, and that's my apology for
• 2:39:42
  Speaker 2: not writing how they must have felt. It's a slap
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 2: in the face. There wasn't Listen, there would have been
• 2:39:49
  Speaker 2: if I would have found it. But it was literally
• 2:39:51
  Speaker 2: that trial, regardless, a slap in the face from the
• 2:39:56
  Speaker 2: state to the family. They did a disservice to them.
• 2:39:59
  Speaker 2: They did. It was disgusting and disgusting. I'm sorry. So
• 2:40:12
  Speaker 2: the Masons, the Jonases, and the Van Sands were left
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 2: to navigate the wreckage of a silent decade that refused
• 2:40:21
  Speaker 2: to give them the truth and still can't give them
• 2:40:24
  Speaker 2: a truth fifty years fifty plus years later. Perhaps the
• 2:40:31
  Speaker 2: most haunting irony of all is that the meeker Baker
• 2:40:36
  Speaker 2: didn't need to hide. He just needed the police to
• 2:40:39
  Speaker 2: be busy chasing a man who wore his violence on
• 2:40:43
  Speaker 2: his sleep. The easy catch, the easy one. As long
• 2:40:47
  Speaker 2: as the investigators were fighting over seventy five thousand dollars
• 2:40:51
  Speaker 2: bonds and witness lineups and kodiak, Robert Hanson was free
• 2:40:55
  Speaker 2: to walk the anchored strip, scouting the next disposed life
• 2:41:00
  Speaker 2: and protected by the very mask of normalacy. And respectability.
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 2: The state refused a peel back. The Ziger verdict was
• 2:41:11
  Speaker 2: not guilty before the young women of Anchorage. The real
• 2:41:15
  Speaker 2: verdict was much more grim. The monster was still among them,
• 2:41:20
  Speaker 2: and he had just learned exactly how to stay invisible
• 2:41:27
  Speaker 2: and that it didn't matter what kind of woman you are,
• 2:41:29
  Speaker 2: they don't care. So and that's the end of my
• 2:41:35
  Speaker 2: closing clothes there.
• 2:41:37
  Speaker 1: Before I get into my closing thoughts, I just need
• 2:41:40
  Speaker 1: to make explicitly sure everyone understands I was not saying
• 2:41:44
  Speaker 1: Robert Hansen had beautiful eyes. Now I'm saying a Shabbage
• 2:41:48
  Speaker 1: cast show has beautiful eyes. And I made the comment
• 2:41:53
  Speaker 1: off camera before, not knowing if that was a real picture,
• 2:41:56
  Speaker 1: that your eyes are beautiful.
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 2: And don't make a weird amy Mama.
• 2:42:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I am here to tell you something magical just
• 2:42:07
  Speaker 1: happened in my office. What this is the cold Front?
• 2:42:12
  Speaker 1: I think we have a little baby meast it just fine,
• 2:42:16
  Speaker 1: That is not.
• 2:42:18
  Speaker 2: That's a baby one.
• 2:42:20
  Speaker 1: It was a baby when I heard it, and I
• 2:42:22
  Speaker 1: was like, what is.
• 2:42:23
  Speaker 4: That with a well batty?
• 2:42:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'll have to put up my little thing because
• 2:42:28
  Speaker 1: I'm going to catch them.
• 2:42:29
  Speaker 2: You and I are very different people, but it was
• 2:42:32
  Speaker 2: a well bitty.
• 2:42:36
  Speaker 1: Open last night for the dogs to go in and
• 2:42:39
  Speaker 1: out instead of just the doggy door because the flap
• 2:42:41
  Speaker 1: was flying up, so we just opened the door. I'm
• 2:42:44
  Speaker 1: wondering if the mama brought him in. I got babies.
• 2:42:49
  Speaker 2: You and I are very different people.
• 2:42:53
  Speaker 1: If I catch them, I will name them after you.
• 2:42:57
  Speaker 1: Then I will take pictures of them for you. I'm good, Thanks,
• 2:43:02
  Speaker 1: Can I return your gift? I'm sorry.
• 2:43:04
  Speaker 2: I don't mean to sound like an unappreciative able, but
• 2:43:07
  Speaker 2: you know you're never just one.
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 1: The last time we had the little babies, because they're
• 2:43:12
  Speaker 1: also doing construction, we bought the mama and six little babies,
• 2:43:16
  Speaker 1: but I made the mistake of releasing them all by
• 2:43:19
  Speaker 1: their self. We said if it ever happened again, I
• 2:43:22
  Speaker 1: would catch them all and release them together as a family,
• 2:43:26
  Speaker 1: so that I didn't break up the family.
• 2:43:28
  Speaker 2: I killed them all and put them all in my
• 2:43:30
  Speaker 2: trash can so I didn't be dead it I would
• 2:43:32
  Speaker 2: never even very Okay.
• 2:43:35
  Speaker 1: That's fine. Everybody's different, everybody's everybody's different. So my closing thought,
• 2:43:43
  Speaker 1: I hate Alaska. I hate Not all police are bad.
• 2:43:50
  Speaker 1: Not all police are bad. There are a couple very
• 2:43:55
  Speaker 1: small few in Alaska that we hear about that are.
• 2:43:57
  Speaker 2: We'll hear about them in the store. We've they're coming.
• 2:44:01
  Speaker 1: The one thing I hope is it somewhere out there
• 2:44:07
  Speaker 1: somebody is taking up money. I really would like Alaska
• 2:44:14
  Speaker 1: to do DNA testing on Robert Hansen and all of
• 2:44:18
  Speaker 1: the remains that they have on unsolved cases like zz
• 2:44:27
  Speaker 1: did you do swabs? Did you these families? And I'm
• 2:44:31
  Speaker 1: gonna not cry. These families deserve to know what happened.
• 2:44:37
  Speaker 1: We now have the technology mm hmm. And because the
• 2:44:41
  Speaker 1: case is still open because Zaiger got off, Beth is
• 2:44:45
  Speaker 1: still open, all of these those cases are still open.
• 2:44:48
  Speaker 1: We have the technology m hm. And I hope that
• 2:44:55
  Speaker 1: within the rest of my lifetime, somebody does the right
• 2:44:59
  Speaker 1: thing and test and gives these family the answers. Because
• 2:45:05
  Speaker 1: I also do think Hanson had a partner.
• 2:45:09
  Speaker 2: Oh therey a few times, I do think there was
• 2:45:11
  Speaker 2: a partner involved.
• 2:45:12
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of them he did alone.
• 2:45:14
  Speaker 2: But I think, oh yeah, I will say too. One
• 2:45:17
  Speaker 2: of the things I forgot to mention is Gary almost
• 2:45:21
  Speaker 2: could have went to prison, probably for six months, because
• 2:45:24
  Speaker 2: it's fucking Alaska in the seventies by anyway, Are there
• 2:45:28
  Speaker 2: other innocent people in or was in prison because of
• 2:45:35
  Speaker 2: crimes that they did a shitty investigation that could have
• 2:45:39
  Speaker 2: actually been related to Listen, Robert Hanson didn't just start
• 2:45:43
  Speaker 2: in the eighties. I don't give a shit who you are.
• 2:45:45
  Speaker 1: There's either a lot of unsolved cases or there are
• 2:45:48
  Speaker 1: innocent people in prison. Yes, those are the two things
• 2:45:53
  Speaker 1: that they need to do DNA for exactly.
• 2:45:56
  Speaker 2: And that was the other reason why I wanted to
• 2:45:58
  Speaker 2: cover Gary's thing, is because I would put good money
• 2:46:02
  Speaker 2: on that there are cases that are solved that that
• 2:46:07
  Speaker 2: are belonged to Hanson and not who's ever in its
• 2:46:09
  Speaker 2: what they brought to this. This is a joke.
• 2:46:12
  Speaker 1: I mean a joke, it is. And so I don't
• 2:46:20
  Speaker 1: like Alaska.
• 2:46:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, part of his plea was he didn't want any price.
• 2:46:25
  Speaker 2: He didn't want all sorts of stuff, aw sorens of
• 2:46:28
  Speaker 2: stuff because he said it's a gun nine.
• 2:46:31
  Speaker 1: I know, but no, I'm sorry, I.
• 2:46:35
  Speaker 2: No, I agree with you. I think that there's no
• 2:46:38
  Speaker 2: reason why. You know. Here's the deal too, If they're
• 2:46:41
  Speaker 2: not going to try to fucking solve these crimes after
• 2:46:43
  Speaker 2: fifty years, give us the information, then you don't want
• 2:46:46
  Speaker 2: to do shit, exactly.
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 1: The case, because let me tell you, it has been
• 2:46:52
  Speaker 1: proven that crowdfunding true crime solving can work.
• 2:46:56
  Speaker 2: I can't what I can tell you right now. I
• 2:46:59
  Speaker 2: can tell you right now I can do a better
• 2:47:01
  Speaker 2: job than some of these fucking people.
• 2:47:06
  Speaker 1: It doesn't impact him that he's dead. But look at
• 2:47:09
  Speaker 1: the yogurt shop motors that just got solved here in Austin.
• 2:47:13
  Speaker 1: The guy who did it was dead. But you know what,
• 2:47:18
  Speaker 1: the men who were falsely accused, one of them is
• 2:47:21
  Speaker 1: no longer alive because it wrecked his life after being
• 2:47:25
  Speaker 1: accused of this horrific crime. Their names are cleared finally,
• 2:47:32
  Speaker 1: all these years later, and finally those girls' parents have
• 2:47:37
  Speaker 1: the fucking truth. And that's what matters, and that's what
• 2:47:43
  Speaker 1: the impact it is. Only if there's innocent people in jail,
• 2:47:48
  Speaker 1: they deserve to get out. And if it's someone else
• 2:47:51
  Speaker 1: who did it, they deserve to go to prison. How
• 2:47:57
  Speaker 1: can we use this DNA legally?
• 2:47:59
  Speaker 2: Now you can't use his because you'd have to egs
• 2:48:04
  Speaker 2: in his body. But if there's some I mean in analogy.
• 2:48:09
  Speaker 1: There's family members, there's.
• 2:48:13
  Speaker 2: There's probably some stuff they could do. But also it's
• 2:48:15
  Speaker 2: just it's a good question.
• 2:48:18
  Speaker 1: They they've got his DNA on something, let's be I
• 2:48:23
  Speaker 1: mean they took his clothes off of him and they
• 2:48:26
  Speaker 1: put his clothes in an evidence bag. They can get
• 2:48:29
  Speaker 1: his evidence. He was in prison, they have his DNA.
• 2:48:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he only died in twenty fourteen, so he was
• 2:48:38
  Speaker 2: definitely part of the fellon DNA submissions. Like they have it.
• 2:48:43
  Speaker 1: It's too damn lazy. We heard somebody say that they're
• 2:48:47
  Speaker 1: only investigating one hundred missing person cases when there's thirteen hundred.
• 2:48:52
  Speaker 1: So why would Alaska spend their money and do it?
• 2:48:56
  Speaker 1: They o't. Everybody think they don't have money. I ask
• 2:48:59
  Speaker 1: somebody earlier today about the oil business in Alaska, and
• 2:49:05
  Speaker 1: I said, how does it compare to Texas? They're like, Terry,
• 2:49:10
  Speaker 1: why do you think we send so many textans there
• 2:49:13
  Speaker 1: to work? Yeah? And I had to stop and thinking
• 2:49:16
  Speaker 1: about monkey butt stepdad who works in Alaska eight months
• 2:49:21
  Speaker 1: out of the year and then comes home.
• 2:49:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a whole thing for a decade. It's decades.
• 2:49:27
  Speaker 2: But I think too even for example, like even these
• 2:49:30
  Speaker 2: super colde cases where a lot of their family isn't
• 2:49:32
  Speaker 2: alive anymore. I think just knowing for history's sake, not
• 2:49:38
  Speaker 2: even just history stage steak. But like it's the end
• 2:49:42
  Speaker 2: of that person's life. Then if we can say, like this,
• 2:49:46
  Speaker 2: that's their story, right, and it's horrific. Okay, it's had
• 2:49:50
  Speaker 2: a horrific ending.
• 2:49:52
  Speaker 1: Who did it?
• 2:49:53
  Speaker 2: But they're horrific? Yeah, exactly.
• 2:49:56
  Speaker 1: Only the name is held accountable. It at least puts
• 2:50:00
  Speaker 1: the name with it.
• 2:50:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, if all we're going to get for some
• 2:50:03
  Speaker 2: of these people is a fucking name in a birthday
• 2:50:06
  Speaker 2: and a death date, the least we deserve to get,
• 2:50:10
  Speaker 2: or the least they deserve from us in the future,
• 2:50:13
  Speaker 2: is to give them some semblance of that they were here,
• 2:50:19
  Speaker 2: you know, even if all we have is how they
• 2:50:21
  Speaker 2: died and buy whim. But that's just me being like
• 2:50:24
  Speaker 2: a huge like history.
• 2:50:27
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to just say, for those of you
• 2:50:30
  Speaker 1: that don't know, I'm going to be out having surgery
• 2:50:33
  Speaker 1: in April in Alaska. You're on my hit list on
• 2:50:37
  Speaker 1: my dad time.
• 2:50:38
  Speaker 2: Oh on your death, You're gonna be Alana. Forget about it.
• 2:50:42
  Speaker 2: We're only doing Alaska ship for the rest of the year.
• 2:50:44
  Speaker 2: I'm so angry.
• 2:50:45
  Speaker 1: No, there is. I'm a lot of other states have
• 2:50:51
  Speaker 1: blood on their hands and they've done some bad things,
• 2:50:54
  Speaker 1: but they've tried to clean it up. Alaska hasn't even
• 2:50:59
  Speaker 1: try and they're okay with it. And that's the problem
• 2:51:03
  Speaker 1: I have. If they would have known it, if they
• 2:51:06
  Speaker 1: would have said, we fucked up, we are doing this better,
• 2:51:09
  Speaker 1: we're trying this, we're doing this, they hadn't done that,
• 2:51:14
  Speaker 1: and that put them on my hit list.
• 2:51:16
  Speaker 2: I know this show is really long, and it's probably
• 2:51:19
  Speaker 2: like the worst time for me to even talk about
• 2:51:21
  Speaker 2: this right now, but no. I did the series The
• 2:51:24
  Speaker 2: Devil in the Bay about Oba Chandler in Florida, and
• 2:51:29
  Speaker 2: a few weeks ago we were listening to JRL Investigates,
• 2:51:32
  Speaker 2: not our favorite, but he did great Nancy Gothrie coverage,
• 2:51:36
  Speaker 2: you know who called in the lead investigator, all right, oh,
• 2:51:43
  Speaker 2: you're really going to bring this up right now. I'm
• 2:51:45
  Speaker 2: going to bring it up right now because the ship.
• 2:51:48
  Speaker 2: He said he learned from that moment of Oba Chandler's
• 2:51:52
  Speaker 2: case and he still believes it. And he called out
• 2:51:56
  Speaker 2: the Arizona Tucson police for not going on them when
• 2:52:00
  Speaker 2: the media he went to the FBI.
• 2:52:02
  Speaker 1: The whole thing.
• 2:52:03
  Speaker 2: We clipped it. Yeah, Amy, Yes, it's on our community page.
• 2:52:06
  Speaker 2: You can find it in our community post. Now that
• 2:52:10
  Speaker 2: that is an investigator of integrity. You Sergeant Glynn Moore,
• 2:52:16
  Speaker 2: not two ends now, that though, is an investigator with
• 2:52:22
  Speaker 2: integrity who admits when they don't know how to do
• 2:52:26
  Speaker 2: all of the things, and that you ask for help,
• 2:52:29
  Speaker 2: and that you asked the community. That's the bat as hubrious.
• 2:52:34
  Speaker 2: That's what hubris exactly. Humorous and humility go a long way, Alaska.
• 2:52:41
  Speaker 2: It does. But you're alm a list, okay, super fingerling over,
• 2:52:48
  Speaker 2: Sergeant glynnmore no more. You know we were we're such nedes.
• 2:52:52
  Speaker 1: We're like a late tonight. We thank you all for
• 2:52:57
  Speaker 1: being here. But before we go, if you like all
• 2:53:01
  Speaker 1: of our rants, if you like what you heard tonight,
• 2:53:06
  Speaker 1: please be sure to follow all of our socials and
• 2:53:10
  Speaker 1: if you didn't watch Midday Missing, I'll give you in.
• 2:53:14
  Speaker 1: I am working on a parody put together clips of
• 2:53:18
  Speaker 1: Lama that will be released on all of our social
• 2:53:22
  Speaker 1: channels and she will not get a preview or an input.
• 2:53:27
  Speaker 1: Tell me about it when it's ready. You're going to
• 2:53:30
  Speaker 1: want to go to our socials and guys, subscribe to
• 2:53:34
  Speaker 1: our YouTube channel. It is totally free, so you get
• 2:53:37
  Speaker 1: all of this rant for free. You didn't even have
• 2:53:40
  Speaker 1: to pis your wife off for it? You got it
• 2:53:42
  Speaker 1: for free from us, right and if you're listening on
• 2:53:46
  Speaker 1: our pod, please download give us a rating. All of
• 2:53:50
  Speaker 1: that helps us tremendously and getting our channel out there,
• 2:53:54
  Speaker 1: and guys, it helps us keep covering more cases. That's
• 2:53:58
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 2:53:59
  Speaker 2: We will be back with part six of our Frozen
• 2:54:02
  Speaker 2: Fear The Butcher Baker of Alaska series Wednesday at eight
• 2:54:07
  Speaker 2: pm East. And it's not going to be as long
• 2:54:09
  Speaker 2: as this one. This one's one of our longest episodes
• 2:54:11
  Speaker 2: of the series, but for obvious reasons. So if you
• 2:54:14
  Speaker 2: haven't hit yet, hit the like button, subscribe button, and
• 2:54:18
  Speaker 2: the notification bell so you don't miss when we go
• 2:54:21
  Speaker 2: live with it, because you're you're gonna want to. It's
• 2:54:23
  Speaker 2: a good time. We have visuals. If RNTs, I don't
• 2:54:25
  Speaker 2: even know what, I'll mix it into the podcast. I'm
• 2:54:28
  Speaker 2: just show up and I'm like, I'm here. Then do
• 2:54:31
  Speaker 2: whatever you want.
• 2:54:32
  Speaker 1: Just Subbleh does all the editing. I don't go back
• 2:54:35
  Speaker 1: and listen. I'm sure he silences me a lot.
• 2:54:40
  Speaker 2: It's just like that mama, Oh my gosh, she's so passionate.
• 2:54:45
  Speaker 1: He's like being with you two in a room. Could
• 2:54:50
  Speaker 1: be a lot.
• 2:54:51
  Speaker 2: It could be it could be Well, is there anything
• 2:54:54
  Speaker 2: you would like to say before we sign off tonight, Terry,
• 2:54:57
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 2:54:58
  Speaker 1: I just want to remind you, guys, just because we're
• 2:55:01
  Speaker 1: talking about Alaska, everywhere can be dangerous, okay, so you
• 2:55:06
  Speaker 1: need to stay safe. Most importantly, if you see something,
• 2:55:11
  Speaker 1: say something, because a lot of people are too scared
• 2:55:15
  Speaker 1: to do the right thing. Doing the right thing is hard,
• 2:55:20
  Speaker 1: so do it, okay. Don't be like the Alaska Troopers.
• 2:55:24
  Speaker 1: Do the right thing. Okay. And guys, if you can't
• 2:55:27
  Speaker 1: enjoy your wine time, it's okay to enjoy a martini
• 2:55:31
  Speaker 1: every now and then, it's.
• 2:55:32
  Speaker 2: All right, becaus our friend tonight. Well, also on that note,
• 2:55:37
  Speaker 2: why she says see something, call it bullshit too, Walter Gilmour,
• 2:55:43
  Speaker 2: who also helped write a book that I think your
• 2:55:45
  Speaker 2: house sees a shit on thing.
• 2:55:46
  Speaker 1: It's like karma.
• 2:55:47
  Speaker 2: I don't care and bad.
• 2:55:49
  Speaker 1: I'll say it. I'll say it. I don't care. But
• 2:55:53
  Speaker 1: you know, I would love to interview mister Trooper if
• 2:55:58
  Speaker 1: he wants to come on and give us, if he's
• 2:56:01
  Speaker 1: soul alive, his thoughts and opinions on what it was
• 2:56:05
  Speaker 1: like back then, because dude, I was born in seventy.
• 2:56:10
  Speaker 2: They know who i'd rather talk to. Investigator Maxine Ferrell,
• 2:56:15
  Speaker 2: That's who i'd rather talk to. Sergeant Walter Gelmar, That's
• 2:56:20
  Speaker 2: who I would rather interview.
• 2:56:24
  Speaker 1: All of them.
• 2:56:24
  Speaker 2: Just come on, but no, everybody, you stay safe tonight,
• 2:56:29
  Speaker 2: have a good, hopefully warmer day for most of.
• 2:56:32
  Speaker 1: You today tomorrow Saint Patrick's Day. Don't forget to wear green.
• 2:56:36
  Speaker 2: I can't because I have a green screen. Just just
• 2:56:40
  Speaker 2: show up to my streams tomorrow just a fit up, amy,
• 2:56:44
  Speaker 2: are you again see me? Because of my green screen?
• 2:56:46
  Speaker 1: I started my green today.
• 2:56:48
  Speaker 2: I couldn't only see that. And you hate wearing green?
• 2:56:51
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 2:56:52
  Speaker 2: I would look great in that shirt.
• 2:56:54
  Speaker 1: I don't look good and green.
• 2:56:56
  Speaker 2: But you can send me on your green stuff.
• 2:56:58
  Speaker 1: So but yes, enjoy St Patrick's Day tomorrow, and just
• 2:57:02
  Speaker 1: remember green beer causes green poops.
• 2:57:05
  Speaker 2: I don't drink beer. Too old for that anyway, You
• 2:57:08
  Speaker 2: all have a great rest of the evening. Until next time,
• 2:57:11
  Speaker 2: go forth and be amazing.