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Transcript

What I've Learnt - Writer's Gems (2022) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Weather Flight Podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Luke, one of the producers of the show.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: As a producer, I love my work and helping Deborah and our team share so many wonderful stories.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: From food to fashion and art to music, we've got you covered.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: As the end of the year is fastly approaching, we thought we would look back at some of the best moments from writers of this past year.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_05: A highly respected fashion journalist, editor, and features writer of more than 30 years' experience in Metro Daily newspapers and more recently in digital media.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: Voxfrock.com.au is her digital blog zine based on a variety of content and style of newspaper fashion pages.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_05: Renowned for her industry knowledge and witty realistic insights into the role of fashion in everyday life, she's a frequent contributor to workshops, seminars, industry panels, radio and television reports relevant to fashion and its culture.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_05: Just on another note, Country Road and others are embracing the new circular economy.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_05: You and I touched on that last time, recycling and ethically producing garments.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's transformational for the industry, as you know, Thread Together, which is my sister's and brother-in-law's uh brand, they do a lot of this.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_05: There's a lot of people involved.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_05: You know, it is definitely the future.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_05: So really, it's almost like most brands have to have some sort of circular approach.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: What's your perspective on that and what have you observed?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's just it's a done, it's a done deal.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're going into if you're introducing a new brand, uh it's it's understood that you will be right across uh all the ideas of ethical production, transparent supply chains, sustainability, all those conversations that are happening across fashion now, you've got to be across them if you're introducing any kind of new brand.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: So, and there's there's so many resources now to enable you to do that.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: There's there's workshops, there are uh doctorate studies, there are websites, there's so much that you can access.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: So there's really no excuse.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that if you don't, if you weren't across that, even as a small brand, as a big brand, as if you're not across that, then you get called out.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_04: Social media is just vicious.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, people people who are watching you on social media, they will be absolutely vicious.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: And uh they will call you out, they will call make you uh account, account accountable.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and there are these, you know, these wonderful social media projects like Diet Pratha that make a you know that they make a mission out of out of calling out um bad practices in fashion.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: So you you're gonna get caught.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: So everybody nobody wants to, so everybody seems to be doing the right thing and they're doing the right thing as much as they can, but I still, you know, I I bang on about this.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: I think the future of fashion is a short, manageable, transparent supply chain, which means that you have to limit the scale of your business.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's just one of those things.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: You cannot manage uh, you know, one of these incredibly long supply chains like perhaps uh you know HM or I know that they try very hard.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, I'm not I shouldn't call that in names, but very long supply chains where along that supply chain you could end up with uh you know slave labor or uh an Urga Urga Muslim, you know, working for two cents an hour, that kind of thing.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: You don't want that to happen because it gets out of your control the bigger you get.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's inevitable.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_05: That's a good point.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_05: The the further you are from your source of production, yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_05: And and I think the other thing, I mean, not to mention there's also the longer your supply chain, you've got issues with delivery, particularly at the moment, there's still docs, and uh that's a separate issue, but it's sort of related to you're talking about streamline, streamline the process, keep it simple and keep it accountable.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_04: Checking, transparent, or we're always checking.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they're legislate across the world now in most countries that actually produce fashion, they're uh they've either legislated already or they're planning legislation for people to keep a constant check and keep their supply chains pure.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but it is a mammoth, mammoth task when if you're producing you know a million units a day, um, you imagine how many, how many outsourcing, outsources, outsources, outsources, how many times uh that the you know those those production elements have been handed down the supply supply chain, just out of totally out of your control eventually.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_05: That's a very that's a very good point.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_05: What about the interesting notion of um some of these extraordinary innovations where they're making clothes from plastic and or you know from recyclable beads and you know that is a really interesting innovation as well.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_05: Do you know much about that?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_05: And are you interested in that?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_05: And do you think it's going to take off?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, obviously, we've had the bamboo and we've had all these different products being made from different fabrics, but it it goes to that notion of trying to use waste to make clothing.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: Look, I I think you've been the guru on this in this on this subject is is someone like Claire Press, who is uh a marvelous advocate for sustainability and and circular circular fashion economies and you know a kinder, fairer, nicer future for fashion.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: She's wonderful.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: But I I the technologies are in the technologies are still being developed at the moment.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_04: Technology is going to be uh an incredibly integral part of fashion's future because to to actually use recycled plastic, how do you how do you you know the technology has to be known to create malleable fibres and that sort of thing, but also to use waste is the separation of different elements, different different chemical elements to then sort of siphon off into some sort of fashion use, that sort of thing.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's easier and more accessible that idea for fashion companies or fashion producers to actually go to the dead stock market where you've got we have warehouses, massive hanger aircraft, hangar-sized warehouses of dead stock all over the world.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: And we have unused clothing, millions of kilograms of unused clothing going into landfill or going to um terrible situations in developing countries where they're you know they're picking out what they can sell, but then they're they're discarding the rest and it's creating an environmental hazard, and it's a terrible, terrible, terrible waste.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: But so um I know of brands in Melbourne particularly, which are the smaller experimental brands that are using dead stock um fabrics from all over the world.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's not you you don't just go into a dusty warehouse and pull out a bulge of stuff that you know was was circa 1949 and let's use that.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh they'll actually search the world, you know, dead stock uh from you know Italian bills and that sort of thing uh to create incredible collections, beautiful, unique collections that are obviously limited, and uh and they will they'll label each piece as it's usually made to order or made in small runs, they'll label each piece as as um this is this is a limited edition because once this fabric is gone, it's gone.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's gone.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's very clever.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, and there's this wonderful brand.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just I'm trying to remember her name, but actually I was really impressed.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_05: Have you seen the brand that gets old towels from the 70s and creates these amazing hats out of old old beach towels, but they're selling out all the time.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_05: Unfortunately, I just can't remember her name.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: But I was so impressed.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_05: I thought that is, I mean, that's a very small example, but no, but that's a great example.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_05: She's doing really well, and and it will come to me and I'll put her up on my um when I put the pot up.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_05: It might be.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_05: I just want to be sure that I've got the right one.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_05: But but I know that they're selling out.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but they're selling out because it's such a wonderful.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_05: So there's nostalgia, there's retro, there's bespoke, there's all of those elements that you referred to.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: And repurposing uh uh repurposing old clothing.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there is there is actually uh a lot of brands that will will actually take secondhand clothing and work out ways to use them.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: Now it might be um a little bit more specialized than you being able to use a whole bulk of fat, you know, uniform fabric.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: But repurposing clothing, I think that's going to be incredibly important too.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_05: Very, very interesting times.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, obviously, as we touched on briefly, many brands have fallen by the wayside after a COVID-driven-driven demolition.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but you know, we're seeing signs of it really has been like a sort of Armageddon of sorts with certain brands.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_05: You just go, what?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_05: Another one.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_05: It's really quite hard for a lot of people.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm, I mean, yes, you and I have touched on there is regrowth, there is recalibration, there is a revival of sorts, but really it's a matter of how do we nurture some of these people and make sure that they are also, whether they go back into business or whether they find new ways to be part of the industry, are we giving enough support to those businesses that, through no fault of their own, have been sort of the subject of a pretty tough time?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, shopping time.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think we're I think we're a minority if we're shopping local and buying local and seeking out these small brands, whether I see them on uh my social media feeds, um Julia Brown, uh who is who started the Fashion Hub, is a really interesting one to keep in touch with.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: So uh follow the Fashion Hub on social media and she'll be able to do that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: What is that?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's uh it's um she's nurturing 20 or so, I think it's about 20 or so new brands, emerging brands.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: So that's one area of this, and then there are the very small brands that didn't do particularly well during the pandemic, but I've spoken to a lot of them, and I would say common a lot among all of all of the very, very small brands is adaptability.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we use this word pivot so many times it became boring during the pandemic, but that's exactly what they did, and if it meant um going uh one uh if if they changed it to a side hustle and they paid their bills with something else, else like whether it was working in a kitchen at a restaurant that was doing Uber meals, delivery, delivery meals, that was one.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, there are other ways, you know, people adapted by making masks, obviously, so many small brands and hats, and I know the uh there were shawls and scarves, and you know, they would use off off cuts and things to just keep that, keep that going almost like their brand became a side hustle to their you know, the real business of paying bills and and that sort of thing.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that a lot of the small ones that I know have come through and they're okay.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: They're they're you know, they're renewed and and um you know, champing it the bit to get cracking again.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: So, and there are more emergers.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be coming a very crowded space, this small brands area, and and I don't think that's a bad thing.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: It sounds crowded market's not a good market.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's a good market when it comes to fashion because whoever you are, if you really crave, you really want to, you know, you have a particular kind of fashion taste, you can find it out there at the moment.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if you're into glamour and very incredibly beautiful French couture finishes and you want something made to order, you can get that.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: If you're into a kooky club scene or festival, you know, you're you're dying to get out there to the festivals again, you can go and you know get the uh the pink faux fur top and the I love it.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_05: You can get anything is out there.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's almost like yeah, the high street, it's like the high street.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_05: I I do think what is wonderful about what you're saying too, though, which is really sort of nice, is that not only have we got a much better insight into how hard the industry people work and how layered it is and how complex it is, and how, you know, it's sort of in a way lifted the lid off a lot of that fashion mystery for people, if you're not in the fashion industry, you know, being much more, it's a little more personalized.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I think also the idea that in a way you've got it's back to the sort of that market, like you're like in a beautiful market with beautiful, crafted, bespoke high street, you know, back to that real London, you know, market vibe.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_05: And I think people are trying, I think people love that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's taken it out of that realm of the big.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_05: I know there's still that there's you've got the big supersonic brands, but I think there are more people.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: We'll always have them.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and and look, that thank God we do, because they're wonderful.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_05: But I do think it's opening the door a lot to some of the more bespoke as a result of this.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_05: Love and grief, both a type of madness and both obsessively documented.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: Love wins the documentation stakes, but grief lately isn't far behind.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_05: Writers believe they can diminish the grief madness by finding the words of explanation.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_05: Explanation for the inexplicable, metaphors for a place where there are none.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_05: Death is inventive and enjoys surprising us.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_05: Author Natasha Scholl was 22 when her partner Rob died.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_05: He was 27.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_05: She woke in the middle of the night to find he had flipped on top of her, making strange noises.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_05: Then his heart stopped.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_05: It is unimaginable.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_05: 22.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: About to begin a new life, living in a new apartment with a man she loved, and he dies in their bed.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_05: She's unable to save him.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_05: She doesn't believe he has died.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_05: She blames herself.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_05: The daughter of a doctor, the sister of two doctors, and she just couldn't save him.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_05: How hard was it to recollect that sea of grief that writing this book and how essential was it for you as a sort of catharsis?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really interesting question because in some ways I didn't have to revisit the grief at all.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's very present in my life.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that's also something that I was exploring in the book, the way that how we think grief evolves isn't necessarily what happens.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And for a long time I thought that that meant that I was doing grief wrong because I still felt it.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: It was so palpable still, 16 years later.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I just had to lean into and explore the reality that yes, I have really hard moments and really hard days, and I have beautiful moments.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And under underneath all that, there's still this hum of this other life that could have been, and neither one takes away from the other.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I sort of didn't have to go back in time because it's just so part of who I am now, I guess.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_05: That's really interesting.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's a very important reflection because what you're saying is it becomes actually almost part of life.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_05: And your life.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_05: And it doesn't just dissipate into the ether of the universe.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it becomes intrinsic to who you are.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you have to learn to sort of integrate it as opposed to push against it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I did push against it for so long because I just thought it was incompatible with living a full life.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then at some point you just have to embrace it and accept that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not accept the death or accept what happened, but accept that you're a changed person and that that's okay because that's normal.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like it would be weird if you had this trauma or life-changing experience and then everything just went back to normal.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one expects that to happen.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: But yet in the face of death, we're still sort of surprised at how different everything is.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not just that we're changed as a person, but our viewpoint is changed, like how we experience the world is completely different as well.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_05: How did it change you?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_05: So, in what way?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_05: Because speaking to people who are close to me recently, um, they feel completely transformed by the experience on many levels.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_05: How was it that how did it transform you and in what way?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I guess how I thought it should transform me was that I'd be, I'd have this sort of trajectory where you experience something negative and then you come out the other side a better person and you have this appreciation for life and you're grateful and resilient, and everything is, you know, that's sort of the story that we're told from Hollywood movies.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: But sort of, and yes, there are those moments where I just appreciate the tiniest things and I'm so grateful for just the ordinariness of the everyday because that's such a contrast from where I'd come from.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, like, you know, I still get stressed over minor inconveniences.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: I still, all those elements that they haven't changed who I am as a person.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't come out this sort of, I don't know, warrior woman, amazing human being.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just as ordinary and flawed as I always was.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: But also I think it's changed the perspective that you have and the way that you experience the world.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So in the shorter term, I guess it's, you know, things that once would have elicited a certain response, you just sort of feel almost numb.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a lot of what I went through in the early stages.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I was quite shocked by that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just I thought I'd feel more because I'd been through so much, but I was just numb.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was completely shut off from the world.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess part of that recovery is learning to just feel again and trust the world again.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because when especially a sudden death as well, like you lose that trust in the world.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like you walk around at before that thinking, well, everything will work out.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden, things don't always work out, and the sense of control that you think you have is gone forever.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that safety net is completely gone.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_05: And so, in what when you say that it numbed you, so was it did that make you numb to things clearly as is evident, you've married and you've gone on to have your children, and so you found some pathway through to reconnect with yourself on both levels because you require that to some degree in order to marry, to love, to have children.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_05: So was that something that took a number of years to re-engage, or is it something you just learned to switch, find that switch again?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was other people being completely supportive and accepting of who I was.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't something that I could do on my own.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I tried a long time to sort of yeah, do things on my own and it just wasn't working.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can do anything in isolation.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: So having the support from a partner who just accepted me completely who I was, not just that I came with baggage or I came with a history, but that my history is very much part of my present and that my feelings for Rob are not something that would disappear.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we didn't break up.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: I lost him, he died.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm never not going to be sad about that, I'm never not going to love him.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And to have a partner who accepts that and holds space for that and loves Rob because I loved him.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's very complex, but from day one, he was all in.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if anything, I was the one who struggled with navigating that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_05: I can understand that because you had to that you had to find that that trust to reconnect and not fear loss again.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_05: Is that right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And just to yeah, to throw myself back into life again and accept that, you know, disaster wasn't around every corner and that, yeah, I was sort of in that fight.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Flight mode for so long that just sort of rebalancing was sort of tricky to navigate.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_05: But I I think your reference to community is interesting too and to friendship because I can see just around what I'm observing in the way that that capacity for great communal love in the face of extreme tragedy is so powerful and so potent and actually goes to the center of our core humanity, doesn't it?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: And so, in some ways, does that, as much as the universe does things you just cannot comprehend, like what happened with Rob, it also has this embedded in our, maybe in our DNA, the capacity to unite, to protect.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a powerful force.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a few people after they'd read the book said it was almost like a love letter to my family or a love letter to my friends.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't necessarily a book about grief.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is, but it's not just a book about grief and loss, it's about that community and the way that other people can save us.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't think I would have made it through without the support and friendship and love that was offered to me from day one.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_05: And so that gives you renewed faith.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_05: I can see in the book and that sense that there are people holding you through the journey.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_05: And that is so affirming.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_05: And also in ways that you don't anticipate, what were some of the um, I suppose in that early phase, what do you think some of the greatest struggles were?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_05: And obviously, we'll get to your your partner and your marriage that came later.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_05: But what is it that at that very cold-faced time, do you think?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I know obviously people bring food and they literally physical requirements are, you know, to make sure that you're fed and that you're, you know, clothed and supported while you try and you know, wade through the mud of all the grief.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_05: But what was it, do you think, that when you started to feel the wheel turn to some sense of balance?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I hadn't um expected at the time, like in the aftermath of that grief, I was so unprepared just for the physicality of it and the like the the intensity of it and anger.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was just so much anger.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was just, I could feel it in my fingertips constantly.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was just yeah, bubbling up with anger all the time.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was completely unpredictable.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time, you know, we were in our early 20s.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: My friends were in, you know, new relationships or they were single and having fun.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thrust into this widowhood that just wasn't um aligned with the stage of life that we were in.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So not only did I not know how to navigate that because I was completely unprepared, but obviously my friends didn't either, like none of us were prepared for it.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just having those people who said, like however I reacted and responded, um, they just accepted it in a way that allowed space for me to process those emotions.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if I was reactive and angry, they didn't necessarily get, you know, offended or push me away.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, okay, well, what can we do?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because what worked on one day wouldn't necessarily work on another day.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if they gave me some space, I would feel rejected.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: If they were, you know, they're 24-7.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: I felt smothered.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like there was just there was no right way.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't direct them what to do.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever they did felt wrong from both of our perspectives.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just such a big ask for them.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess just that acceptance and trying and trying again and trying again.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if that didn't work, to just show up and not just to say to me, We're here if you need anything, but just to keep showing up.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like after this book, you know, people had said things, told me things that I didn't realise at the time, either because I forgot them, because I was just in such a haze, or I just wasn't aware of them.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of my closest friends, Carla, said that she would call my mum almost daily, or my mum would call her.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it was this conversation is, is she going to be okay?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer was, I don't know, because that's how sort of severe things were at the time.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: But they were in contact and I didn't know that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there were all these things happening behind the scenes where everyone was trying to, you know, rally the troops, I guess, in a way.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that, yeah, if I, if they invited me for dinner and I was like, how could you, how could you do that?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I want to sit at a table of couples like that?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, which is something that happened, they'd be like, okay.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next day they would try again and try something different.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And however I responded and however I reacted, they never made me feel that that was abnormal.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was just, we will get through this together and we will be there no matter what.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_05: Well, Madonna King is author of a new book called L Platers, How to Support Your Teen Daughter on the Road to Adulthood.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_05: She's an Australian journalist, author, and media commentator, and from 2006 until 2011, King presented mornings on ABC Radio Brisbane.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_05: Well, from social media, Snapchat, surgery, and school formals, her new book is a fascinating insight into the challenges facing a modern-day teenager.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_05: And I know, I mean, I have three children myself, and I also am surrounded by a lot of um parents, obviously, and I've seen the challenges and the transition for a lot of people, particularly these girls, who just, as you say, there's somehow, there seems a sense of isolation that develops.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, referring to the 14-year-old, yes, but the 17-year-old, which is your present book and focus, the L Platers book, is really interesting because I think we're not as prepared for what, because they're about to go out into the big world, because they're on the cusp, and often there's that sort of rite of passage, the gap here.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_05: Well, for example, most of them are doing it at 20 now.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_05: I know my son certainly is, because obviously there was almost like a hiatus of two years where they got lost, but that's a COVID-related issue.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_05: But it probably exaggerates what is an already complex transitional time.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what a clever question.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that's right.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's two causes.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, university staff are saying they're seeing 18-year-olds act more like 15-year-olds.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason is two things.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: One is, as you said, COVID.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Think of what you did when you were 16.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Think of the mistakes you made, the misjudgments.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And our children have not been allowed to do that because uncertainty has killed so many of those opportunities from things they would have to navigate at parties to friendship to a whole lot of stuff, even school excursions.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so they they haven't been able to practice being an adult.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's the first thing.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: The second thing I think is school has become harder, more academic, more competitive, particularly private and independent schools are wanting to top those league tables.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result of that, our children's anxiety is so strong that they that is their focus.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're giving up everything from part-time jobs to sport to friendships.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Some have got the ATAR figure, their ranking figure, painted on the ceiling of their bedroom wall.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: And they've narrowed their life to this one number that you and I know will not dictate their success.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I often say that, you know, to various, you know, kids that I come across.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_05: It just doesn't define you.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_05: Now, why have we got a system that is set up?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it is really toxic to have a system that is set up with expectation that almost is impossible to meet.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_05: And as you say, corrals these kids into this sort of we didn't even have that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it was really, you know, yes, you wanted to do well, but it wasn't all defining.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_05: For some reason, the system has become very and it paralyzes these kids.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_05: So they're either, as you say, sort of stuck, I mean, separate to COVID, even just before COVID.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think I like to think that after this research, and I I sought the counsel of 1,000 girls aged 16, 17, and 18, that there is this new disease of comparison, and they don't compare themselves in a sense, um, they wish their peers the best, but they are brutal in their own self-judgment.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: So even at the age of 10, I found that girls were deciding not to do science in high school.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: If they got six out of 10 and their friends got nine out of 10, they decided I'm not a science girl.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise, I think when they're 15 and 16, their social media is just wallpaper, comparison with everything from clothes to body shape to hair colour to eyes.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result of that, they are always going to compare upwards, richer, thinner, prettier, and that has had a huge impact on our girls.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_05: And tell me, do you think this is new?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_05: There was always an element of that.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_05: In fact, I recently caught up with some old school friends and we meet regularly, and oh, we were laughing and you know about the things that you think matter at that time.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_05: But my point is, do you think it's it's changed, or do you think it's always been there?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's just an exaggerated form now.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's absolutely changed.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and it's exaggerated.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you just think, if I can give you one example, if you're driving your 14 or 15-year-old to school tomorrow morning, you might see a billboard of a beautiful woman dressed scantily at the beach.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can say to your daughter, that's fake.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's not a real picture, that's not a real, real beach.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And she will understand that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: But now on social media, just let me give you the example of dark ads, where our children are receiving ads based on what their searches are, their digital traces, but they only appear for a second and they disappear.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't know what your daughter's seeing, you don't know what your son's seeing.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: University researchers said to me in Nell Platers, they can't even capture these ads to research them.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And what my daughter is getting is different from what your son is getting.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's so tailored to their individual searching.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, how can we talk to our children about that?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: How can we give them the critical thinking skills?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one girl said to me, of course we know it's fake.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're not dumb, we know it's fake, but when it's there every time you turn on your phone, it's really hard not to compare yourself.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: One school principal said to me, What she's saying is almost a generational difference between an 18-year-old and a 10-year-old, that the world has changed so much in those eight years that a big sister might almost be a generation older than her 10-year-old sister.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: And when you just think of the consequences of that.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I can observe that myself.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_05: I can see that with certain gaps.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_05: The difference between, let's say, my 27-year-old and some of the 18-year-olds is quite dramatic in terms of what their exposure is.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: In particular, I think what concerns me, and I mean, I note you you actually in your book, you refer to, you know, imagine a thousand teen girls in one room and you ask one question, what's the biggest challenge you face?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_05: And 700 of them give the same answer, my mental health.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_05: There's a lot of, you know, it's it's quite disturbing, but it's not surprising when you see how inundated they are by things that you've just referenced.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: Um, in particular, I suppose the the issues of body image, which I've talked on this podcast a lot about with various models and people in the industry, the pressure on these girls, which comes over social media to be thin and the thin spiration, and as you say, the dark web where there's sort of flashes or there's there's pop-ups, if you like.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_05: How do we how do we equip them?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_05: Because it's almost so normalized.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_05: You and I never had that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we didn't have any of those.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was even thinking, you know, I'd never heard of these two forms of disordered eating, like eating disorders, one called chewing and spitting, where girls are chewing something and then getting rid of it, and the other is orthorexia, which may start with a green smoothie, and then they only put into their mouths something that's pure, so they have no sugar, preservatives, wheat, gluten, and it goes, they narrow and narrow.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never heard of that.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a really difficult space for parents too, because even when you say your 27-year-old son, I was talking to someone recently who has uh a child about the same age.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually a girl.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: She's actually a 25-year-old girl.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Her speech is slower and better than someone who may be seven or eight years younger because they're used to just writing in acronyms, um, texting, and they speak so fast because that's their language, that if you line up a 27-year-old and an 18-year-old, you can actually see when they talk, when they communicate the influence of that smartphone.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_05: So it's sort of bite-size, isn't it?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's everything's in bite size in terms of communication.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_05: But I think the other thing is there's also then this sort of huge, and whether this is relevant or not, there's a huge also overlay of well, there's a lot of people on ADHD medication, there's a lot of these young girls being put on, you know, a whole raft of things to sort of tame their brain, some of which is very valid and important because obviously there are some that need it.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_05: But I wonder if the like, I don't know if you are somebody who's on your phone a lot, I'm on it reasonably, but obviously I'm a mature woman and so are you.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_05: But can you imagine what that's doing to your brain if it's incessant and it's constant and it's distracting from absolutely everything.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the girls know that.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: I asked the 1,000 of them, how often are you on your mobile phone?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: And don't count school because some may use it in class.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: So during the week it's an average of three hours.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is after school.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: On the weekend, it's more.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, so describe your relationship with it.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, toxic, obsessive, unkind, horrible.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: They all had these adjectives to describe their relationship, but the pull, the lure of it was so strong they couldn't quite give it up.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember one uh principal in Adelaide said to me, even if they don't touch it for the first 10 minutes of the morning, it actually gets them in a better frame because they're not reaching and looking for it straight away.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: But we I've found in this that we even probably have to teach them that at 17 because, and I know in my family, my eldest lives away at a university college, so last year we practised allowing her to have the phone in her room.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Seems ridiculous at 17, but I knew at college it would always be in her room because that's all she has.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so we went bit by bit to ensure that she wasn't just having it till the last minute and then picking it up the next morning.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we've handheld our children, particularly in schools perhaps, to the point where they are graduating, and I suspect boys too, without those skills that you and I had, and I don't just mean judgment skills, I mean things like how to get a tax file number, having done a first day course, um, being enrolled to vote, um, having know what superannuation is.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: I spoke to girls who were 17 who had never caught public transport.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And when I spoke to university tutors about how they could see the difference between those girls they thought would cope as 18-year-olds and those who would struggle, they said they could see it the moment they walked in.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it was the amount of confidence that they held within themselves.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I went home thinking that's a really good lesson for me.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we kind of sometimes think things like that aren't tested so they can develop those eventually.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those soft skills of confidence and teamwork and kindness and being able to communicate what you and I are doing are the things that actually determine how far you go in life, aren't they?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not what you get on your physics exam.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_05: No, it's and it's so incredible.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, my kids are are older now, but it is really quite so evident and so clear that something between the ages that you've referred to is going very awry.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_05: And the question is, you know, how do we fix it?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_05: How do we equip our kids as you've outlined?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_05: But also, you know, you talk also about I was just looking at some of these interesting this research, you know, El Platers explores gender identity and and those aspects, which is another massive issue, uh, because obviously there are so many versions and variations that are emerging.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_05: I actually said to my daughter the other day, we were talking, this is my 22-year-old, and we were talking about, I feel like everything's a choice.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_05: There is just so much to choose from that it's almost overwhelming for these girls and these and boys.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's just like this endless smorgasbord of choice.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_05: Now, while that's great, and I think it's it's really um liberating on one level, it is also really confusing for them.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: You are spot on.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually spoke to a social demographer, Mark McCrindle, who almost said that.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: He said, in the smorgasboard of life, our teens are grazers.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: They can have anything from everywhere.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: They want to be so inclusive.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, but inclusive to what?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: To what end?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: To what purpose?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you are so right that some are just frozen in fear.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Fear of choosing the wrong course, the wrong partner, the wrong way.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't think, well, I can just change, I can turn the corner and go a different way.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that maybe come from choices, some from privilege, some from the way our schools, I think, and I'm not talking against this, but there is a level of hand holding happening where you know a student can hand in five drafts of an assignment.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, teachers are on the lookout for the child who isn't coping.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're told what to study when in 40-minute chunks.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Their homework is corrected, they're given homework.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Then they stop school.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: No one ever tells them to put their hand up to go to the toilet again.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, they're lost.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: No one's waking them up, no one's getting them to lectures on time, no one tells them what's required at work.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one girl told me how she went and handed a draft into a university tutorer and who looked at it and he said, This looks like a draft.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Yeah.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Oh, sweetie, I think I might wait for the final copy.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And she was devastated.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I think when we are actually handhelding them, maybe parentally too, to the point where we're not allowing them to fail.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_05: What do you think?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_05: Like if we I do agree with you, and I think it's a really important point because they get to university somewhat ill-equipped, and then the other thing that's happening is it's filtering through to certain aspects of university where they can everything's negotiable.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_05: I think everyone has a right to negotiate what is reasonable, and life is actually the ability to negotiate.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_05: But when everything's negotiable, from how long you sit your exam or whether you sit it in a certain way or in a certain space or at a certain time, or you have it is very interesting to just see this sort of avalanche of options, which by all sort of the liberals of which I am one, small L liberal, I support choice in every sense.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_05: But I think where we've we've almost overcorrected a little bit, and we have to make sure that our kids also know there are limits, there are restrictions, and that it's okay to choose a path and then choose another one, but give it a good shot, you know.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and to give them the skills to be able to make good choices.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_05: As best as that can be done.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_05: And sometimes, if it's not a good choice, as you say, failing is where we learn the most, often.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_05: Another very important point that you um you raise is a teen girl's liver is very different to a teen boy's liver.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_05: This I found this interesting.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's not fully developed until the early 20s, and that has significant consequences.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: Girls are more affected by alcohol and for longer.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_05: Experts have lists of stories where girls have lost their licenses the day after they were drinking.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_05: They really do have to be super careful.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_05: So talk to me about that because I don't think that's well known, actually.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, well, I didn't know it either, to be honest.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Paul Dillon is just an expert in this area based in Sydney, and he not long ago gave a talk, and a mother then said, Look, let me take you through a liver ward at a hospital.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: She was a specialist, and as she did it, she said, I forget her exact words, but they're words along the lines of, This used to be full of old men, we're now seeing young women.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's women with liver damage.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul Dylan said, when he goes into a school, girls want to be equal.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: They want to be able to say they can drink a boy under a table.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, that's true, they might be able to.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: But what's the response in their liver?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because their enzymes are different, their size of their liver, the development is different, and it means that their ability to process alcohol generally is lower than that of a male equivalent.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Often they have a smaller body weight as well.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, the other thing is none of them ever ask, well, how does alcohol mix with the pill, or my anxiety medication, or my ADHD medication?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, you know, they've been on this medication often.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Boys and girls for years, and then they think, well, the next step, 18, is a party, and there's no conversation around the mixing of things.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I hadn't thought of that as an issue too, but he said it's it's something that every parent should be alert to be a little bit of a.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_05: We both walked nervously and sat the ruling exam.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_05: Fortunately, we were both successful.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_05: Lara headed to the ABC and I began a Herald Sun cadetship and then became a Melbourne Age reporter, and the rest is history.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_05: Time would see us working together in later years when Lara took a studio space in my publishing offices, and it was from there she met her future husband, Ben Cowan.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_05: We attended that beautiful wedding and have been connected in so many ways.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_05: But tragically, Ben died suddenly in a paragliding accident a few years ago.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_05: And I've watched this incredible woman navigate the complex, challenging roles of Mother to Three who started Parachute, a charity to help support other young people struggling or suffering loss.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think as a writer, that's where you, you know, the the outpouring and the the working through comes in.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't know whether the navigation or you pick your way through, I think, you know, when you're, and particularly it's it's really interesting being on that trajectory.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: I've met lots of people, lots of widows on my path since Ben died.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the sudden death bit is different, you know, there's it's it's actually interesting because in the widows group that I'm part of, there's often an argument or a discussion about which is worse, you know, the sudden death or the long sort of um protracted illness.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, and they both have they're both awful.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the unexpectedness of not being able to come to terms with something, not being able to say goodbye.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: Not, I mean, literally the last thing I said to my husband was be back by five because I've got to hit the road and get back to Melbourne.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it was kind of like, and he goes, Love you, and both back by five.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that was, you know, sort of it.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: And and interestingly, you know, my kids were in the pool and didn't get to say goodbye.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: And they have developed, you know, more than five years later, this um kind of, I don't even know what you call it, a little tick almost, where they have to say love you before you leave a room, before you get off the phone.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, and it's an and if you don't, there's a huge thing around that.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we have all developed sort of coping mechanisms.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you don't really, yeah, you you you navigate and it changes all the time and it continues to change even today.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like you move on, you just move forward.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_05: And I think the other thing that's important to note is that you do have that resource, which is quite valuable, of being able to tell the story.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_05: You know, that is a real asset in terms of informing, educating, engaging, and communicating with others about what happened to you.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_05: I personally like whether it's through your eulogy or I'm sure in the widow's group, your ability to communicate and to engage with people is actually something that um speaking to other people who have had loss, they don't always have that.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_05: In fact, I interviewed, although I did interview Natasha Scholl, who had also who was an extraordinary interview, and she uh used her writing skills in her book as we discussed.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_05: And uh, she said that was quite cathartic.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think some of your ability to communicate has helped you?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's it's helped to educate because I think there was a sense, and a lot of people said that, you know, you'll be fine, you know, you'll get through this, you'll, you know, and people say it's so great to see you've moved on.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I get frustrated with that idea because, you know, grief and this sort of grief settles into your bones, and you do get on with life.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like you don't have a choice, you know, and definitely in my case, my kids didn't give me a choice when I tried to choose otherwise.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and so you deal with it and you live with it.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: And people want to see you happy and want to see that, oh now everything's okay again.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: And for them, Ben is not present every day, every minute.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: But for us who live without him and who built lives around him, it's just it's a matter of, you know, he's here every day.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I've watched my kids grow into people who have gone from kids who saw their dad as the father of a child to teenagers who've asked other questions and sort of realized, oh, he was a person with all of these kind of different attributes they hadn't thought about, to adults who've reflected on their own behavior as children in that relationship and have been hard on themselves sometimes.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it's moving all the time.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: So our relationship with Ben hasn't stopped at all.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that I write and I talk about it to educate other people to make them understand in a gentle way, but what's it like?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because people are also a bit fascinated.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, at the beginning, no one knows what to say.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: They bring lots of pastries and bread products.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, my sister termed the phrase bagel face when people would turn up with bagels and say, I'm so sorry for your loss.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: And she'd be like, What's with the bread and the face?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and and you have this, you know, thing when you're going through, particularly in the early days, where you feel guilty for laughing where someone's seeing you.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because how can you be happy?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: How can you, you know, what if they think that I'm not inside falling apart?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: So you're being watched in a different way.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so I guess that I take certain milestone opportunities to tell people, well, what's it like at this stage?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: And remember that it keeps going.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, it's probably highly irritating to people that I continue.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_05: No, not at all.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_05: In fact, I think what is important, and that's what I think your skills do give you, is your capacity to comfort others because there is a sense of comfort.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_05: People who have gone through or going through, in fact, there's somebody today that I know who's going through a really tough, tough time as a result of something that happened in her life.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_05: And she speaks very similarly, actually, about the notion of it being ever present and it being something that you live with and it's in it's embedded in your almost in your DNA, it becomes part of you.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_05: So I think there's some sort of universality in in talking about grief in that way, and in that universality becomes it gives people a sense of comfort that you don't feel as alone.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_05: It's not to say that it's not a lonely journey at times, but tell me that story.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I think that's really interesting, you know, that you had tickets to South Africa.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_05: Can you tell me that little that little story of how you went on your trip and you pursued trying at a very early stage, trying to keep the kids a little stabilized?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_05: And can you tell me that story?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_05: It's really interesting because I think that goes to your tenacity and determination to try in a state of complete grief to push through something.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: Ben had been to Africa, he'd done the big safari, he'd done, he had amazing stories about it, always had been somewhere that I wanted to go.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: And we'd waited for a point till the kids were sort of old enough to appreciate it, and we had great adventures with the children together.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: And um, even on the day of the accident, he had been booking what would be our holiday.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and his so he his accident was in the January, and we were going to go, I think, in the July.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, that didn't happen.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: But then the therapist that I was working with, the grief um counsellor, uh, said to me, Why don't you do it?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I couldn't.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, at the end of the day, Ben made me brave.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he was that kind of person who just absolutely embraced life.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I was the one who went, hang on, hang on.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: We got, you know, snacks and what about times for sleeping?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I so the idea of doing it on my own was just terrifying.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um and she said to me, you know, if it was a big city or something, I would say don't, but I think it will really do you good.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so we uh planned this kind of trip and we went to, you know, Kenya, and we went to Nairobi, and we went to we went on safari, and we it was a really amazing adventure, really, because we were in a um a van, the four of us with a driver.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_05: You and your three kids.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_05: So you and your three kids, just to clarify, you you went on that trip after the tragedy in almost in honor of what you felt you needed to do for your for your kids, for yourself, and almost in honor of what Ben had planned.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_05: Is that right?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: Is that the well it was, and it was part of because I made them, you know, a couple of promises after Ben died, the kids.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that the, you know, the children were age 13 with my son and 12-year-old twin girls.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: And at that time, you know, they were very worried about what was going to happen in all aspects.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things I promised them that was that we'd still have adventures.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that was very much part of our life and and our marriage and our values.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I thought, okay, I'm gonna see if I can do this with them, not on my own, but as the only adult.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, we did it, I mean, fairly safely.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like we were wandering around uh Johannesburg or anything on our own.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that would have been a good idea, but it was a really intense experience.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it was also a point, it was a year after the accident, and it was a very much as a tribute to our life going on, but also honouring this big adventure that we were going to have.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I cried most of the way through it.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: I have to admit that I was I was not uh, and and it was interesting because we were in on New Year's Eve, the kids said to me, We need you back.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: We've lost our father, but we've also lost you because I was so deeply in grief and just miserable.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: And they said, You have to be happy again.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was at that moment that I promised them, you know.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: So Africa was kind of the moment where I said, okay, I'm gonna, whatever it takes, live in a way that's gonna be a fulfilled life.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think brave is a really good word for you because, and I like the way you say Ben taught you to be brave because you're probably brave innately anyway, but I think that's a really good exemplification of the way that you took what was a really tough thing to do on your own anyway, let alone carrying this incredible parcel of grief that you were managing.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_05: But maybe do you think there was a catharsis in that in some way?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: I've tried to find that.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, I just think it is so incremental, you know, this the journey that I couldn't see that there was, oh, this big thing happened.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_03: I was waiting for that.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it, I don't think I had that.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting talking to people who were surrounded.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, for instance, one of Ben's business partners tells the story about, I mean, they lost, you know, their their partner, their lead partner and the person who pushed through everything who taught them what they know um and how to do what they did.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: And Jason said he's the advice that his therapist gave was you've got to become comfortable with being uncomfortable.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so he wrote a list of the things that made him most scared and most uncomfortable and then went through that list.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so some of it was swimming in open water and the dark.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so he went and started swimming at night in the bay.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: And he talks about looking up at the sky and talking to Ben during that period.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone did the people around him, really, a lot of people took his death as also a lesson of his life.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: What can I learn from this?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: And how and how do I deal with you know his loss, and how do I make it meaningful, and how do I actually go forward in a different way.