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Episode 16_ Crossroads · NO FILTER

• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to episode sixteen of Proof to wrap
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: up our first season to send U. Kevin and I,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: along with Dandy Camerman, are here to answer some of
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: your questions, discuss what making the season was like for us,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: and film some of the things that we learned while
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: investigating that didn't make it onto the show.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: So we're the course of the podcast, we've heard the
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: journey of the bowlings of Amanda and Michael, going from
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: believing that Kane and Lee were guilty to now believing
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: they're not. So that was a really interesting journey to
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: witness and Susan and I was wondering for you personally,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: how have your feelings about this case changed from when
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: we first started into where we are today.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: It was a few years ago now that I first
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: heard about this case, and from the first time I
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: spoke to Lee, I knew something was wrong with the case.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I didn't have much material to go on for quite
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: a while, so what I had was mostly the Appella
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: decision from nineteen ninety nine, which verified a lot of
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: what Lee was telling me, But beyond that, I had
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: things Lee Clark was explaining on this case and going
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: on his word, I mean it's sounded like a messed
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: up situation, but of course tlacy documents, you never know
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: what's really going on toneath the surface. And then as
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: we got more documents in the case that verified everything
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: we've been telling me, I was very much certain that
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: at a minimum, the entire case, the entire fact scenario
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: person by the prosecution was wrong, and quickly came to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: believe that Lee and Kine were very much innocent in
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: this case. Now, there was a time when I was
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: less certain about Cain. Sometimes I started to wonder if
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: everything Cain had said was in fact what had occurred,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and I remember they kind of waving for a bit.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: But then by the not even the end of investigation,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: at certain point, as you started to get more materials,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: more witnesses, for me, I became fairly certain that not
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: only was Lee Clark innocent, but Caine's story also was
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: not the one who fired the gun that night in
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: the Bowling's bedroom.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: For me, this story has been a really interesting process
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: as a storyteller. I remember just say that we were
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: working on the Tightest Case for our Investigation Discovery show,
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: and you were working with Susan on the undisclosed version.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: The Tightest case, and she first sort of told you
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: about the story, and you were explaining it to me,
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: and as I got to learn more about it, I
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: thought it was a really compelling story about one person
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: and perhaps two people who were wrongthily convicted. But I
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: think what I never planned on was the bizarre details
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: of the story that would emerge, stuff with Dallas Battle
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: and Charlie Childers his testimony, and then Angela Bruce in
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: the corner. I mean, it was sort of one thing
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: after another which just kind of made your head spin.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: So in that sense, it's like no other story I
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: think I've ever been involved with. And like Susan, I
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: think that at the beginning, I was leaning towards the
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: fact that the was probably wrongly convicted, but I didn't
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: know about Kane, and I don't think we'll ever know
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: exactly what happened in that room because Brian is gone.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: But I've come to believe that both of them are
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: wrongly convicted. And I've never been associated with the story
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: where the family of the victim has come to believe
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: that the people in prison should not be.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: There, and certainly not prior to the legal system reaching
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: that conclusion.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: That's right, You know, it's been an extraordinary journey that
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: I feel fortunate to have played a role in telling
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: this story, and to me, it also represents something great
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: where just in that you and I were able to
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: sort of partner with Susan and start a new a
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: new podcast, which I've I really enjoyed, and this story
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: was so important to be told, and I don't think
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: we all knew exactly how important it was till after
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: week going with it.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: And without the show. I don't think that certainly, not
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: all and a great deal of information we found whatever
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: come to light.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the two of you and Dan too,
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: he was along for those rides. Like the amount of
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: stuff that you guys uncovered and the amount of people
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: that you got to speak honestly on the subject has
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: been completely incredible, and it's been quite a it's been
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: quite a journey, and fortunately it's not over for these
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: guys yet, but I feel that there's been a lot
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: of movement forward. I hope.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Anyway, what about you, Dan, where'd you end up landing
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: in this case?
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: In the beginning, I really didn't know much about the
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: case really at all at the very start, and as
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: I kind of got to be there and meet the
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: people and hear the stories firsthand, especially the whole thing
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: with Charlie as well, when it's just hard to it's
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: hard to imagine Lee or anyone else, you know, kind
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: of how your heart could think of like this that
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: they're trying kind of convince, you know, or force them
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: to get to say, you know, these kids did or
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: what they saw when it's just like hard to you know,
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: how that can hold up in court at all. It's
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: I don't know, so it's just for me, it was, Yeah,
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: it was just one thing after and just like kept
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: falling into place, just like hard to believe any of
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: what was, you know, the decisions from you know, all
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: the autopsy stuff, to Charlie to you know it just
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: the party, like all of these things just kind of
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: falling away like layer by layer as we got there
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: to the end of like it's just you know, Lee,
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: you know, the whole gang thing, the notebook, just one
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: thing after another just seeming ridiculous and and you know, yeah,
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: I just I hope you know that it can have
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, it seems like it's at least garnered the
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: attention for helping at least with the Innocent Project. You know,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: it's kind of the biggest I guess hope at this point, right.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Lee now has counsel, which is everything. Without that,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: these cases never go anywhere. Yeah, but with g Ip's help,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: he has a fighting shot.
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: I mean that seems huge and just you know, I
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: don't know, Yeah, just being able to through that whole
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: journey of trying to peel back the layers, it's at
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: least great too, you know that we were all able
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: to help, you know, get it to that point, to
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: this point, and like Kevin said, you know, it's with kin.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: You know, that's a harder that's a harder story that
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: you know, kind of like everyone has said, even you know, Michael,
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: Brian's uncle, you know, said like, no one's ever going
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: to really know, you know, what went on in that room.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: But even he agreed, like it was probably an accident,
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: and you know, he's served long enough for an accident,
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: you know, and just that alone, you know that he's
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: even convinced, you know, or that all of this information
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: was convinced, even Brian's uncle that you know.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: So there are a few reasons that I do think
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: that Cain didn't have the gun. I'll get into later.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: But what else comes down to me for me is
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: that it's almost immaterial legally speaking who had the gun.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: I think we're all confidence point whatever happened in the
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: room that night was an accident. So even if there's
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: some uncertainty and if Brian's family is not sure if
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Brian actually had the gun when went off that night,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: or if Kin may have had it and fired by accident,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: to some extent, it wouldn't matter in the courtroom. Both
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: what Kins admitted to doing, bringing the gun down, giving
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: the bullet and the gun to Brian, and then playing
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Russian Roulette with him, even if they were faking at first,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: that could support an involuntary manslaughter charge, regardless of whether
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Brian actually had the gun when it was fired. So
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: just adding in the fact that swimming Kin had the
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: gun instead wouldn't necessarily mean that Cain would face any
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: more legal jeopardy than already was.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I thought he wasn't Kane acquitted of involuntary manslaughter.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Yes he was so. At trial, the jury was given
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: the option to convict Lee of like murder, first degree murder,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: but for Kin, they could convict him a first degree
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: murder or involuntary manslaughter the prosecutors, Like, if you don't
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: believe this whole conspiracy thing, you can also say that
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: it was an accident and that Cain was so reckless
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: and what his conduct that he should be convicted of
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the manslater instead. But the jury said no, he was acquitted,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: so he can never be convicted of that. But before trial,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, this whole issue of who had the government off,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't mean a different sentence for for Caine necessarily
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: whichever way it happened.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Just what about you? How did how did mind of
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: impressions changes of the story from when you started to now?
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Well, for me, I guess in with an open mind,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: but even after you know how many years of true
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: crime have I have I been working? I also tend
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to think that our legal system works and that we
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: get it right. And so I think I approached the
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: story more so than you, Susan, in a way of
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: like believing that the verdict was right and someone has
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: to prove to me that it wasn't, which is it's
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: a little bit different. So I was looking for evidence
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to prove not that they were innocent, but to prove
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: that it was the right verdict. And I remember even
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: driving around in the car with you, Susan and Dan
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: coming up with these scenarios of like, oh, maybe maybe
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: you know, Lee pressured came to do it because Lee
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: thought that that Brian had ratted them out for stealing
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: safe and like, all these different scenarios are going through
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: my mind.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Are the lover's triangle theory that apparently Battle had at one.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: Point exactly like some theory that would mean that they
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: got it right and that these kids haven't been in
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: prison for twenty five years, right. I think I knew
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: all along that that wasn't the case. But I think
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: it was the Angela Bruce interview that really convinced me.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: When I heard her say that she was essentially felt
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: forced to say what she said, testified the way she
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: testified because she had been threatened that her kids would
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: be taken from her. Then it's like, oh, this.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: You can see how it happened.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: You can see how it happened, you know. And talking
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: to all the different people about their experiences with Daois
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Battle and the informants and feeling pressured and the rule
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: book that never materialized, Like I don't even believe there
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: was ever a book that anyone saw. I think somebody
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: probably knew. And Kine has even admitted that he had
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: a book where he wrote.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Rics and with the Angela Bruce thing. The thing that
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: really did it for me with that as well was
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: then when Uncle Michael confirmed that you could see in
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: your head like some people could be saying, oh, she's
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: recanting or changing her story when they're talking to her.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: But maybe she's just trying to appease them or do whatever.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: But then he has that story.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: He was there Dallas Battle and David Stewart said, we
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: have a witness we can get to testify because we
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: can threaten to take her kids, Like how do you Yeah?
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: And this, by the way, is a very common tactic,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: like not just in Flood County, but in a lot
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: of jurisdictions. It's something I've seen again and again in
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: these cases and it's a real problem.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: It's just crazy though. I mean, it's still so hard
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: to believe because Lee wasn't even at that party, right,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: So the idea that you can just make this up
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: and you have what twenty twenty five people who were
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: there and not one of those people saw Lee, How
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: did they think they could get away with it?
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Because they never talked to the others, that's how, and
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: they that The part I don't quite get is how
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: they were so confident that the defense attorneys wouldn't talk
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: to him either.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: That's the crazy part.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that I still don't know, but you know what,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: they were right, the defense didn't talk to him, so
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: points to them.
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: I guess it's crazy to imagine they're just like, this
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: person's not going to do a good job. They're not
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: going to bring in, you know, the correct witnesses to
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: fight that.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, just even the basic ones. It's not
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: even like it would take a whole lot of ingenious
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: sleut thing to figure this one out. You just like say,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Angela told us the names of like four or five
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: people who were there, Let's go talk to them and
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: see if this all happened this way. And I think
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: even Angela kind of considered that like a point in
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: her defense. She She's like, I told them who else
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: was there? Like she wasn't trying to cover that part up,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Like she gave them names they could use the verify
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the story, and they wouldn't verified it, but they never
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: did ask.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they instead just called Phil's story to testify, which
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: was easily discredited. He's Kine's uncle.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: And he proves that there was a party, so we
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: know that that part isn't made up anymore because he's
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: confirming it. Just Sinda, we have now made it through
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: our entire first season of Proof and this would not
• 14:26
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• 14:30
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• 16:08
  Speaker 1: So where do things stand now? We have a question
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: from Wonderfully Made one three nine on Instagram and they
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: write what I don't get is with all the crazy
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: things coming up that seem completely unethical or legal with
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the trial, how are Kane and Lee not getting a
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: mistrial or something legally? Isn't there more than enough evidence
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: to throughout the conviction? Unfortunately, that's not how post conviction works.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Post conviction is a very slow, low odds world where
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: most of the time you don't have a prayer of
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: challenging your conviction, and it's getting harder every year with
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the way ruling is coming out from various courts, undermining
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: the ability of defendance to challenge your conviction. So no
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: that there's no amount of evidence that would ever give
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: you a quick ticket out. The closest you can hope
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: for is DNA and some jurisdictions click cases that will
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: sort of fast track postmiction proceedings, but not always. Sometimes
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: they fight that too. But short of the DNA, there's
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: not a way you can just say, like, look at
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: this obviouslying wrong happened here and not fix it. The
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: only method will be either for the DA in Floyd
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: County to suddenly decide that, you know what, there's a
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: problem here and try to go about fixing it, which
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: you know, hey, maybe could happen. More likely it will
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: be fought in court through some sort of post commiction proceding.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: Who's really dependant in that case in terms of if,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: like the GP the Georgia Innocent Project is like bring
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: into court, is it a state that's defending themselves or
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: how does that work?
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: YEP, for GP, they brought on Lee Clark's behalf. So
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: there's two possible options for sort of postmiction filings. Are
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: two main ones. One would be a habeas course petition,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: which is sort of an old writ that is used
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: to challenge the constitutionality of your conviction, and that is
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: always filed where the defendants being held physically, where their
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: body is located. That's the jurisdiction they bring suit in,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: So it would be in for Lee and be in
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the county where his prison is located, he brings suit there. Alternatively,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: there's something called like a motion for extraordinary emotion for
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: a new trial, and that would be brought in the
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: place where the trial originally was held, So that would
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: be filed in Floyd County. I don't know which route
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: would happen here, but it would be most likely one
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of those be the two main options here, and it
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: would be the state that would be defending, typically be
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the AG's Office Attorney General's Office to the State of
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Georgia would be handling the sort of post conviction side
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: of it. I believe that Floyd County would not necessarily
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: get involved again until if and when knock On Wood
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Lee's Arcanes conviction was overturned, which case it goes back
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: to Floyd County and the DA there gets to decide
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: how to handle.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It, Meaning the DA in Floyd County would decide whether
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: or not to do a new trial, which would be
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: hard since they've lost all of the five else.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, but they'll magically find some of them. That happens now,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: we'll see and for the same scenario basically play out
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: for Kin. First, he needs to obtain counsel. Theoretically he
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: could do a pro se but of course there's that
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: unconstitutional court order borrowing him from getting into court again
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: leaks in Floyd County, which hopefully the court will not
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: try to en force. But for the most part, although
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: there's their factual scenarios are different, their legal claims are
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: likely to be fairly aligned. Clansical be made for for Lee,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: made for Cain, and vice versa.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I know it doesn't work this way,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: but if Lee was to be exonerated, meaning if his
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: conviction is overturned, meaning there was no conspiracy to commit murder,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: and Cain has already been acquitted of manslaughter and there's
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: no conspiracy, what would he be in prison for for.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: The original conviction of murdering conspiracy. There are a few
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: well known cases where that has happened, where you have
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: two defendants, both the same crime, same theory, the state's cases,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: they work together, side by side to accomplish a crime.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: One of them gets exonerated and the other is still
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: there to this day.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: How can you conspire with yourself?
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: You can't. But they don't have to convict everyone in conspiracy.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: You can have everyone else in conspiracy be acquitted and
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you can still be convicted.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Hopefully Kane will get counseled.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and hopefully one or both of them can be
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: in court, you know, maybe by the end of the year.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Even one of the.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Things we never really talked about is I mean, we
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: touched on it. It was that Cain and Lee were
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: tried at the same time, but they had separate legal teams. Susan,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: do you think that Lee would have been convicted had
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: he had a separate trial.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, you can ever tell Jerry's,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: especially juris and Floyd County, but I don't think they
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: would have been able to do much. They could have
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: tried to use some evidence that was actually barred from
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: their trial because of rules governing sort of hearsay stuff.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: They could have tried to use Caine and like try
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: to put him on the stand, for instance, but they
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: didn't need to do that because he actually voluntarily did it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: So they would have been a few things the state
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: could have been differently that might have helped them a
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: bit if the LEO has tried separately, But overall, I
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: just don't see it happening.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Well, Caine has never once said that Lee was there
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: that night. He's never ever said that.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they might have been hoping that originally that
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: he mean, they were hoping that that's what Battle thought
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: that he could convince Cain to do by giving him
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: like the twenty serve ten deal. So one issue that
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: remains unresolved is the forensics question. In this case, we
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: had a question from doctor Elizabeth at Doctor Practitioner on Twitter,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and she writes, I thought Burns was the coroner and
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: the funeral home director who did the embalming. Surely that
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: person would know and or have record of whether or
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: not to have to be done. Craig Burns was an embalmer.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: He did work at funeral homes, but he didn't have
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: his own funeral homes, not a director, he didn't own
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: his own place, just an employee there. And he also
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: was never an employe of Henderson's, the funeral home where
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Brian was taken, so he would not have done the
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: embalming in this case. As far as the autopsy goes, well,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: what's interesting that we've learned from Brian's uncle, Michael is
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: that he recalls calling the funeral home and having them
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: tell the family that Brian's body had been taken for
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: an autopsy somewhere. That for me, is one of the
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: major unresolved issues here is whether or not that autopsy
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: did occur. At this point, I don't think we can say.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I think it's possible there was something done for real,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: and that record has not coming to light, But I
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: think it's equally possible there was never even an attempt
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: to do an autopsy, just a paper trail of it,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: which may or may not still exist.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: You think that there is a possibility there was an.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: AUTOPI I do because I just I think it's possible.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I know it's possible for the GBI to have hired
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: autopsy stuff, because they did in the Joey Watkins case.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I think more likely if one happened, here was a
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: private pathologist, a private doctor who was hired, and so
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: there wouldn't be a GBI recko necessarily. There's some evidence
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: seems to indicate one may have been done, and perhaps
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the results weren't favorable to their case, so they didn't
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: talk about it after that.
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: What's the evidence that it did happen? Then? Besides family
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: members thinking there was one that happened.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: There are a recollection by being told by the funeral
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: home that the body had been taken for an autopsy.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: It would kind of fit up the idea that, like,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: so Craig Burns decides to the murder based on his
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: theories about what murder gunshot ones look like. He tells
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: battle Battle's like, well shit, I guess we would. Ever
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: since that for an autopsy and that would have been
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: done in the time period between when they go to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: the funeral home to see the body and in between
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: the viewing at Brian's grandparents house. And there's the fact
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: that for some reason, the death certificate or the investigat's
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: death or investigation report is left unchecked, which Burns him
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: self acknowledge was very weird and he couldn't explain and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: to me suggest the paperwork here is messier than we
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: know because of it. If there's a yes no answer
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: that would have been filled out. I suspect the reason
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: it was not filled out at all because the answer
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: is complicated, and rather than do something on that sheet
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: that would be a lie, he just didn't fill it
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: out at all.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And the sheet there's there's a box where you can
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: check whether it was there was an autopsy, a toxology report.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: What were the other options?
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Not no autopsy, external exam.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Right, and it's just left blank and it's signed by
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Craig Burns.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but does that lean towards You just think that
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: at least leans towards the possibility that there was one,
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: because at the same time, I don't know, maybe that
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: he did that multiple times accidentally over.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess for me, the better way of putting
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: it is it means that there's more story here. We
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: don't know yet that there's some sort of additional factual
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: developments that we have not quite penned down. But if
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: there's more paper trail out there as possible, we could
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: figure out what happened, especially if the coroner's office ever
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: decided to comply with the Open Records Act and give
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: us the records we requested. Yeah, we have a question
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: from at Kurt Bianki on Twitter, he writes in Clark
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: by State in niney nine George's Spring Court appeal, the
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: ruling refers to quote the neurosurgeon's testimony that he found
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: no powder burns in the victim. As I understand it,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a neurosurgeon didn't examine Brian's body. Correct. Yes, what Kurt's
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: referring to is the Appella decision that talks about the
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: testimony of Brian's neurosurgeon that treated him at the hospital
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and who testified that he did not see any evidence
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: of gunpowder or powder burns, and that in his experience
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: self inplicated wounds in the head goes straight across. That
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: was his testimony. Of trial. But also it was extremely
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: inappropriate to have him there testifying because he's not a patholoist,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: a forensic expert, and he was likely only there at
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: all because the state didn't have an actual medical scandard
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: to rely on. But there's a reason you use actual
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: forensics professionals because, for instance, his testimony about the shot
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: across the front of the head is not accurate. In fact,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: most the vast majority of self lolicted wounds the head
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: or angled backwards, not straight across. But as the expert
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: we spoke to theorized, since a wound straight across the
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: head like that is more likely to be survivable, it
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: makes sense that the neurosurgeon who treats living patients would
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: encounter that more commonly, even though the majority of patients
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: have wounds that angle backwards and they just die right away.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: And Brian was still alive.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, the wound Brian had wouldn't usually be survivable to
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: any degree. It's not survivable long term, but the fact
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: he was still alive was somewhat unusual, so that could
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: be why it was not something that his doctor had
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: encountered commonly. And there is one last area that I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: think could potentially be significant here, although maybe too late
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: now to ever prove it. One of the signs of
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: a contact shot, a gun that's being held to the
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: head when it was fired is the presence of not
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: only powder burns like burning from the gun shot, but
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: also soot deposit where the gun when it's fired, like
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: sort of cloud of soot goes in the air and
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: lands on things. That's what what GSR is testing for
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: and whatnot. But in the case of a revolver, which
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: was used here, you have sort of the cylinder, you
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: have the where the bullet is fired. It's not only
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: expanding energy out through the barrel, you also have soot
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: going out around the cylinder, and there's something called cylinder
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: gap soot deposit that can occur. And we have some
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: photos of Brian's body before it was ever handled by anyone.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: It still has medical equipment taped to him. He still
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: he's covered in blood, so you can't really see any wounds.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: There's not much visible. But one thing that is visible
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: is two grayish patches on his hairline, kind of surrounding
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: where the gun and shut one would be if you
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: could see it. And I wonder if perhaps this is
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: a cylinder gap to deposit from the revolver, because it
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: very much looks like that basically images we have, and
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that would be for the confirmation that this was a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: contact wound. Unfortunately, so like this just washes off, it
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: would not have been it would not have remained. There's
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: no way now to confirm that's what happened. But to me,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that's another point of evidence that makes me think that
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: it really was Brian who had the gun and went off.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: That and the fact that the gunpowder residue test on
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Kane's hands came back negative, plus the black marks on
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: the face. If the body was to be exhumed and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: there was gunpowder in the bones of the skull, like
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: all of that together.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Well that would be game over. That by itself would
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: give you an answer.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Pain a pretty convincing picture that Kane didn't pull the trigger.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was a lot of interviews in the
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: show that never made it on. We talked to a
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: lot of people, some more credible than others in this case.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: A few times we would talk to witnesses in this
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: case who seemed to have information that was very relevant
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: and when you're hearing it, you're like, wow, that's a
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: big deal, only for us to later discover that it
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: was all of not. But it's it's when you work
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: in these cases. It's a reminder that the police go
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: through the same thing, and that if they find a
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: witness who tells them a crazy story, sometimes I choose
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: to believe it, and that was part of the case
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I know. In this case, for instance, we talked to
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: one witness, a neighbor who lived not far from the bowlings, who,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: when we spoke to him, confidently told us that the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: night that shooting happened, came came to his house and
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: confessed to happen and just sender, what did you think
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: when you had When we talked about witness.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I was just confused when we talked to him because
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: it didn't fit the timeline that we had put together.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: In my mind, I kept thinking, well, when would he
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: have done that? When would he have had time? Because
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: he was at the house, he was at the hospital,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: he was at the police station. It didn't make sense
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: to me. So I came out thinking, I don't know
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: if I believe this guy.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is a nervousness one confidently tell you
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: something that important in the case and for no obvious
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: reason to be lying about it, although we later were
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: constantly told by many people in the case not to
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: put any credit on the stories that he was telling.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: We also had another witness we spoke to who told
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: us a confluted story about how at the courthouse when
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: all the witnesses were there waiting to be called to testify,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Angela Bruce actually identified a third boy who had been
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: with Cain and Lee at the party at our house
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: that night, which again definitely never happened.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the story, as I recall, is that
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Angela Bruce pointed to this person and said he was
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: there too, and that person took off running, and there
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: was a chase to find him and bring him back
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: to the courthouse. And you know, it's a room full
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: of people in this like waiting room, people who could
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: be called to testify. No one else remembers this happening.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, seeking pretty confident it was not a credible story. Yeah,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of things we've heard and just tried to
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: verify and cooperate. Never could.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: You never want to just discredit someone because it sounds
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: far fetched, right, you have.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: To, Yeah, you never want to hear someone tell you
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: something is possibly important be like, Nah, I don't believe
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that you have to look into it, even if sometimes
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: you feel silly doing so.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: You know, you end up spending a lot of time
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: going down these rabbit holes and they don't pan out,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: and you know, you come back to write where you
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: were before. And I think we spent a lot of
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: time doing that.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For any sort of podcast like this, one of
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: the issues in a case is trying to get good audio,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: and especially when it comes to interviews with Judgeminson who
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: are prison and depending on jurisdiction, you often have issues
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: with uh like the phone quality and their access to
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: like reliable working phones. But here is one clip to
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: show sort of the the difficulties you can have and
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: trying to get could audio from interviews with for instance,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Lee and Kane.
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: I don't know, I mean, I don't know what to say, Susan.
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know what day about Cane's part,
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: and I don't I really don't know. I mean, how
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: many lost for words?
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: The only evidence that's really what's that banging sound behind you?
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: Now?
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Is there like a banging sound behind you?
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: Oh you hear that? Yeah, it's a guy here, he's
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: slapping bags of candy on soor crushing them up Love's
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: eye around here. He does this. He smashes the oldest candy,
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: puts all the different flavored candies together, and he might
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: sift up what they call him crack candy. And he
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: says it, I'm serious, serious, I'm.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Not doubting you, but like, what what does bat candy?
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: It's all kind of different candy might do.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: I know, for Lee and also for Kine, this has
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: been I mean that they're very glad for the podcast
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: and for the destigation we've done, but I know it's
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: not always been easy on them. It's also just so
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: far out of their normal existence and experiences, having gone
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to prison so long ago. Now and Lee has he
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: here talks to his dad all the time, and his
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: dad could been updated on sort of social media and
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: people are saying about the podcast. He called me up
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: at one point to let me know, and he was
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: really upset, and I'm like, what's what's wrongly? And he's
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: like this this person wrote about the podcast and said
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: something really mean about you.
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I didn't appreciate why they they're trying to
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: buddy unite. Why would some by ship like this right here?
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: By my intiation. Man, they said that said they knowing
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: so much. Somebody troll and I said, somebody would a man,
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: you got guys that get on their troll these websites
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: making bullshit comments just because they ain't got better. I said,
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: is that really a term to used it? Did you
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: really call it troll? He said? You know, he said,
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: they called trolls. Man, that's all they do is troll websites.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: But there, yep, that's what the troll does, post bullshit
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: that cost people to get upset.
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: They got me last night because I didn't even know
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: what the troll was when I was pierced.
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: Though.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy when you think about it. Susan, He
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: called me earlier today saying the same thing, like, I'm
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: you guys put yourself out there and people say mean things.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Yes they do. It's okay.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean that the internet didn't exist either, right,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: I mean that those guys went in just as the
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: Internet was being born, and certainly don't think they had
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: access to it in nineteen ninety six, and then most
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: college students were just getting access to it.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to guess another that went online.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And the interesting thing is that this story couldn't
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: have been told five years ago.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: When they went in.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: No, it couldn't have been We.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Wouldn't have had an outlet with which to tell the
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: stories and for people to follow it and for people
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: to comment. And you know, timing is everything, and hopefully
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: timing is finally falling into place for these guys.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And Lee has also told me that if he
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: ever does get out, he is looking forward to going
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: to watch a lot of NASCAR races. And I told
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: him he insisted that they're a lot of fun, and
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I told him he gets one chance to convince me.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: So if he gets out, I'll go one race one
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: and give it, give it a try, and see, we'll see,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: maybe my mind will be changed.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I'd rather be driving the car than watching.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: All Right, you go into the race and we'll go
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: watch you from.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: The stands transpony.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: They were also so in this case, I am really
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: glad that we got to talk to almost everyone who
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: wanted to. But in any case you work, you're never
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: gonna get everyone, and there's always gonna be a few
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: interviews that you just don't quite manage to get. And
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: one of the big interviews that we failed to get, uh,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: was with Bone Thugs and Harmony.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we really wanted to talk to someone about Crossroads
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: and the lyrics and what those lyrics meant, because there
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: was a lot of talk about the Crossroads and how
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: it was a song about execution and you know, shooting
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: someone in the head, and and how it was that
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: killing narks narks and it was specifically being played when
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Brian was killed as like the anthem for killing him,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: for narking. And so we just wanted to hear from
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: the guys and Bones Thugs and Harmony about what the
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: song actually meant to them, and we have not been
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: able to reach them.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Skyler, our social media manager, worked her tail off
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: trying to get through to them and almost got there,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: but we never did get Busy Bone to get in
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: the phone with us. So Busy if you're listening, give
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: us a call. The other big interviews that we didn't
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: get were the lawyers in this case. We weren't able
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: to speak to any of them.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you had said early on, Susan though, when you
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: were investigating the Joey Watkins case, it was Rex Abernathy,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: who represented Lee, who told you about this case, So
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I thought I thought he would talk to us.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I knew he wouldn't because I knew how he did
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: it before. I mean, so I tried to talk to
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Rex Abernathy for the Watkins case. He wouldn't. He would
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: eventually talk to me, but took a long time to
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: get there, and he was always pretty reluctant about it.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: And Ken's attorney Mary Barkley, he was an attorney involved
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: in the mac Gary Mitcham Reeves case, and he wouldn't
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: talk to me for that case either. So I kind
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: of knew going in that they wouldn't talk to us,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: but I hope they would. I'm still hoping they will,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: So I would love to hear from either of both
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: of them, if they're willing. But I was also not
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: surprised that we didn't get to talk on the record
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: with the prosecutors in this case either.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the prosecutors have retired, so technically they
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: would be able to speak to us, and again, you know,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: hopefully maybe someone will surprise us and give us a
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: call someday.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Some of the other witnesses we didn't speak to
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: were a few of the informants in the case, the
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: jail house informants. We did speak to some of them.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: They all told us none of them stood by the
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: story of hearing confession at all. One of them told
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: us that it was a case of Battle coming to
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: him and saying, you help us, will help you. But
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: there were a few more informants that we didn't connect with.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: One of them I was curious to hear from because,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: according to trial testimony, he told David Stewart and Dallas
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Battle that he'd talk about a confession he heard if
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: they gave him a are and some money and a
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: new job, and he may have actually gotten a new job.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: That the testimony is kind of shifty on that point,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: but like it does sound like he actually got the job. So, yeah,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: the informed situation we don't have a everyone in the
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: record for. But I also feel very confident that neither
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Kine nor Lee actually confess to any of them. And
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons I'm so confident of that is
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: there's no evidence that Lee and Kine were ever even
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: in the same jail block as all of the possible
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: informants minus one, which there's kind of an interesting story behind. Yeah,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Terry Sartin was apparently an informant in this case. Really,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I don't think that they didn't.
• 39:41
  Speaker 5: I don't.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the sequence was there or what happened,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: but I don't. We know that they didn't use him obviously,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: so I don't know if.
• 39:49
  Speaker 7: They decided totimony has good.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: From what I seen in the notes, I don't think
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: it would have been much.
• 39:54
  Speaker 7: No, he was the biggest in realm Georgia. Take somebody
• 40:01
  Speaker 7: barded like it, and you know, that's how I'm good.
• 40:04
  Speaker 7: If you had a motorcycle or anything in your front
• 40:07
  Speaker 7: yard right now, it's I mean, that's just how he was.
• 40:12
  Speaker 7: We caught him hot Dog that was his nickname, okay,
• 40:19
  Speaker 7: and I'll tell y'all out down there and several pretty
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: swimming and he pulled up on fifteen folders within a
• 40:33
  Speaker 7: matter of eight hours. Hech dog every morning, every morning. Yeah.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So Terry Sartin was from the police probably have
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: one of the possible informants. There's no record of like
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: a formal interview with him, but there's some notes from
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: him in there where he says that, you know, he
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: hurts confession. And when I later asked Keane about the
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: various Yell's informants, I hadn't at first asked him about
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Terry Sartin because because it was not like a major one.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: But when I asked Kane about whether he had talked
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: to anyone at all in jail about this, he gave
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: me his present answer.
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: I know my cousin, the hot Terry start was a
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: very woman.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Terry Sartin's your cousin.
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he's my cousin. So he did, but he got
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: he got move always in the jailed together because there
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: was a much more time to cut the wall out
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: the jail in gap.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did you know he was?
• 41:33
  Speaker 8: He was?
• 41:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: No, he had a statement where he tried to say
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: that you confess to him. I didn't realize you were cousin.
• 41:43
  Speaker 8: I know, I got on mine, am I Well, Terry
• 41:49
  Speaker 8: Sartin's as far as we can tell, as the inmate
• 41:51
  Speaker 8: that was giving info to other inmates to help give stories.
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So when King's arrested, he was placed in the
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: same block, same sell block as Terry Sartin, and there
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Kin and his cousin Terry are sorry cousin hot Dog
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: had talked about the case, but then hot Dog got
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: moved to another sell block, and it seems very likely
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: it was hot Dog who all along helped arrange for
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the other inmates and this other jail block to come
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: to Dallas Battle and give stories about how they'd supposedly
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: heard confessions. So, yeah, it does appear that the informants
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: in this case were orchestrated or arranged via someone who
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: was willing to sort of serve as a liaison between
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Dallas Battle and the possible informants.
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: Which seemed to be a consistent thing in Floyd County.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, this would not be the first time I've heard
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: stories to that effect in Floyd County. Yeah, So that
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: brings us to the unanswered questions in this case, the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: things that we still don't know that we'd like to
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: We've already gone over the autopsy. For me as probably
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: my number one still want to know what happened there,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: like the exact sequence of what went down and how
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: it went down. I think there's a story there that
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: we have yet to learn. Another big one for me
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: is Joseph Wilkins. I think it's very possible that he
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: made initial statements to police that may have been, if
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: not the genesis, at least a contributing motivation for the
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: nescaier's theory. And one thing that we learn from people
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: who listened to the show and contacted us, is that
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: they recall the day after Brian's funeral, But Joseph Wilkins
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: actually went to school with the police and left with
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: them as well. And in fact, one of those old
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: classmates had a diary, and the student's diary wrote down
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: on that day that Wilkins had been brought to school
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: by the Floyd County Police. The student didn't have their
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: own memory of this event anymore, but the diary itself
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: is good evidence that it did occur. And I suspect
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: that's in their case of more records that we have
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: yet to get but are still out there somewhere.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, it could mean so many things though. If
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: the detectives are going with this theory that it was
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: gain retribution, they could be saying you're next on the list, Joseph,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: You're next, Yeah, and you know, making it seem like
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: he needs protection and he's in danger and no, we
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: have to escort you to school or take you out
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: of school or whatever. Who knows, right, because we don't
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: have records of it. And my point is we don't
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: know what the motivation was, whether it was coming from
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Joseph or whether it was coming from the detectives.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: That's true, and another unanswered question that doesn't actually matter,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: but so kind of curious is the pillow, Like, what
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: the hell actually happened there? Like how did it really
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: get into the Captain Shiflets car and where to come from?
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: It wasn't part of the case, It wasn't part of
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: any murder conspiracy. It has no real relevance. But I
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: feel like there's like a keyst Cops episode based on
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: the entire life history of the pillow.
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: Well, I did sort of create, at least within the family,
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: this kind of conspiracy of its supposed there being a
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: second pillow in the wall and all that stuff.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: You know, Battle, I don't think Battle believed a lot
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: of his own case. Yeah, from all that that stuff
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: we have, Battle did believe in the pillow, like genuinely
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: truly believe this pillow was part of the case. Maybe
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: it was like a tool he was using, but given
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: that he wanted to test it, like, it seems to
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: me he actually thought there was something to it.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it wasn't until it was found, So
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe they tried to hide it.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And then decide to test it. Who knows.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they tried to hide it and then somebody found
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: it and they were like, oh ohoops, now I guess
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I have to test it.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: No, they could have just left it hidden though, like
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: I just throw in the trash. Britady never saw.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: It, but instead they throw it in the chiefs the trunk.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Prank. Maybe there's a jokestone staff at Wood County.
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: It made sure a good yarn, so to speak.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Right, this pillow could have.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: Been the whole idea of Oh, it could have been.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: Used to some kind of sound sort of muffled and
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: noise and something that stood out there is perhaps something
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: devious happened.
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of people's minds.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: Ran with it.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: I mean it worked. I'm still shocked it did, But
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: is inarguable that like it actually worked extremely well.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty five years later, that's the one thing everyone remembers.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Even people who don't remember anything else about Pa will say,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't there a pillow involved?
• 46:35
  Speaker 9: Yeah?
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: So Battle was wrong about the pillow, but he was
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: also right. But it was good evidence if you tell
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: a story about it that the jury likes to hear.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: We also have that sort of un answered question about
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: how Charlie Childers came to be part of this case
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: in the first place because this story about Charlie seeing
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: someone it doesn't seem to come from Charlie and the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: story of trials. It came from Wayne. And Wayne denies
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: it came from him, which I don't know.
• 47:03
  Speaker 9: They could.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah or he did say it or he didn't. I
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: forgot what he said.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: But one thing Wayne did confirm, and I actually highly
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: believe this is that the letter that was written to
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: the Romney's Tribune after the conviction that was signed by
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Wayne' supposedly and says Wayne is angry at the Bowling
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: family for not getting the thanks he and his brother
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: deserved that did not come from him. I showed him
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: the letter. He was like, I can't even write, well,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: what do you think I would have done that? And
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: I asked him, like, do you think your mother would do
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: something like that? He's like, yeah, she would have. And
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: he also made an odd comment to me at one point,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: and he said, you know that our family and the
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Bolan's family go way back. They've always been there for us,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: so we thought, why not be there for them? And
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I couldn't get him to elaborate what he meant by that.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: But I wonder if his mother may have been possibly
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: the origin of the Charlie Childer.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Story, which would then explain why she felt they deserved
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: to be thanked and wrote the letter to the paper.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Yeap, I could definitely explain why she felt that she
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: was somehow shorten.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Like I gave you, Charlie, I gave you this.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Witness, and you didn't publicly think me for it. Yeah,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: there's also the sort of a one lingering question I
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: have has to do with the exhumation.
• 48:26
  Speaker 6: Now.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: The official affidavit that was signed by Brian's parents to
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: support the exhumation says that she recalls seeing a document
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: that had the gang rules laid out, and that the
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: gang rules had this thing about not narking, and that
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: it was for the free birds, and it had like
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: membership list and Caine was in it. What she describes
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: the affidavit sounds almost exactly like the supposed gang rule
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: book that wie Kelly would later be interviewed about. And
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: there's an unnex explained story there about how the Bowling's
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: appidavit incorporates this detail about the rule book when the
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: rule book was not in the casket and later is
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: only ever known by Debbie Kelly.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess we don't know for sure what she's describing.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: It does sound like the rule book, because she did
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: testify to seeing the drawing of the eagle and agreeing
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: to let Joseph put that into Brian's casket, So it
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like that's what she was talking about. Yeah,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: it is one of those questions I don't know that
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: we'll ever have an answer to.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was another layer of mystery added to
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: it though, when I spoke to Craig Burns. Now Craig
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Burns does not remember. Says he does not remember examining
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Brian's body or investigation or what happened with the autopsy,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: but he did remember the exhamation, and here's what he
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: had to say about that.
• 49:57
  Speaker 10: Things like this, the case where somebody said that the
• 50:05
  Speaker 10: murder weapon had been put into the casket. In weeks later,
• 50:11
  Speaker 10: he was disinterred and we looked for a weapon and
• 50:16
  Speaker 10: there were.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: None, but you remember they were looking for a gun or.
• 50:20
  Speaker 10: Somebody had made this statement that the gun had been
• 50:24
  Speaker 10: slipped into the casket.
• 50:26
  Speaker 6: And at first I ignored that statement because.
• 50:31
  Speaker 10: I had heard things like that over the years on
• 50:37
  Speaker 10: different cases, and it didn't have a lot of weight
• 50:42
  Speaker 10: with me.
• 50:44
  Speaker 6: Well, when you kept hearing it and kept.
• 50:46
  Speaker 10: Hearing it, I'm theorizing now, But the county police would
• 50:54
  Speaker 10: either call me or I would have called them, and.
• 50:58
  Speaker 6: I would say, let's put this to risk once and
• 51:01
  Speaker 6: for all.
• 51:02
  Speaker 10: They wanted to see inside the tish, the type of tisk,
• 51:07
  Speaker 10: and it was the mattress would come out and you
• 51:12
  Speaker 10: could look down in there and see what was there.
• 51:15
  Speaker 10: And when everybody was happy, I think there was a
• 51:18
  Speaker 10: piece of paper or a love note.
• 51:20
  Speaker 6: Or something, but there was no gun in there.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: You don't think they found anything.
• 51:26
  Speaker 6: I think they found a piece of paper.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the quote, it's just it's just he says, Yeah,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: we thought the gun that was used to kill Brian's
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: in the casket with them, so did anybody to find it,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: and all they found was a note instead.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: Wait, that's what they thought. They thought someone had secretly
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: thrown the gun in there.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: That's what Craig Burns recalls, and he seems to actually
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: remember the exhumation pretty well, even though here's something else,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: and his memory is that they were going for the
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: murder weapon, didn't find it. All they found was a note.
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, I guess, you know, with all the rumors
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: swirling around, you know, it could have been anything that
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: was you know, like, oh, I heard they put a
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: gun in there. I heard they put a note in there.
• 52:04
  Speaker 6: I heard that, you know.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it almost makes me wonder if there's like
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: a some more stuff we're missing that would give birth
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: to this rumor. But we do know that it's something
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: that Brian's mother long believed in.
• 52:19
  Speaker 6: Told me.
• 52:19
  Speaker 10: Of course, she years and years ago.
• 52:22
  Speaker 9: I really didn't make nothing of it because I thought she.
• 52:26
  Speaker 11: Was still grieving at the time. But she told us
• 52:37
  Speaker 11: that she felt that there was another gun.
• 52:40
  Speaker 9: That Leade took off with ditched it in the graveyard
• 52:43
  Speaker 9: or if there where those trailers are, and I swear
• 52:48
  Speaker 9: she used to try to get me to go crawl
• 52:51
  Speaker 9: up under that trailer to dig for this gun.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: There's not something the revolver but that was fround in
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: the room and belonged to Kan's father, was not the
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: gun used to kill Brian. But it's another indication that
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: there was some element of this investigation that we still
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: don't know about and don't have records to document.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: It also lends itself to the idea that, like we've
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: heard Amanda say and we've heard Uncle Michael say, there's
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: just so many unanswered questions. And when there's a lot
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: of unanswered questions, you're looking for answers, you're looking for
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: other theories, you're looking for ways to have it make sense. Yeah.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: And if one of those questions that Brian's mom had
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: was if this wasn't the gun, if Cain didn't do it,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: then who did? And maybe they're you know, you can
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: see how your mind would go to a second gun
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: theory or you know whatever.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Well, you kind of need a second gun theory. I mean,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: in the end, they didn't need it. They just kind
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: of ignored it. But the actual theory that they're going
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: with a trial is that Lee shot Brian through the window,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: then tossed the gun in and like managed to have
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: it land like just between Brian's legs. I mean, the
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: second gun actually kind of makes more sense, even tho
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: there's no evidence for it.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course they never fingerprinted tested the gun that.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And one other interesting thing that Justina and I
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: found while working on this case has to do with
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: another case with Floyd County from ninety four and when
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: we learned what had happened in it. I think for
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: me it was kind of like a light bulb moment
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: because it was sort of deja vu. In nineteen ninety four,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: there was a shooting in Floyd County outside of a
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: trailer that was initially reported to be a self conflicted
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: gunshot wound. Then a couple days later the investigators decide
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: that actually it had been a murder. And one of
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: the witnesses was a woman who was who changed your story.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: She initially said it had been self inflicted, and she said,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: oh no, it was actually a murder. And the story
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: was that this other guy the trailer had done it
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: because the victim wasn't dark crazy. Yeah, it seems like
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: an awful coincidence to have in one county, like two
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: years apart, two apparently self inflicted shootings that were discovered
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: to see greatly be murders because of narking. And I
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: wonder if this prior case may have influenced battles thinking
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: in the Bowling case, and.
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: That it ended up happening that it went to trial
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: and this person was where someone else was convicted or
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: they never found that person.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: I Nope, he was convicted. I gotta say, it's another
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: case we've got questions about from the little we know
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: about so far, because our buddy Craig Burns also testified
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: in that one as well.
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: Oh nice.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And in fact, there was no gunshot residue found
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: on let suppose a killer's hands, but there was gunshot
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: residue on the victim's hands. They actually tested the hands
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: in that case and it was positive. And still they're like, yeah,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: it's an accident. It doesn't really mean anything.
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, Craig Burns bat in one hundred.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what's also so I realized I texted
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: just Senda when it finally occurred to me. My grandfather
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: died in Floyd County in the brief eighteen month span
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: when Craig Burns was active as coroner. And I don't
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: know for sure, there's no records about it now, but
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: I can just see my grandmother she had gotten a
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: bill for that for his death. She would have paid it.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: And I wonder still if.
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: I mean, how would anyone know that you're you don't,
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, you pay for so many things, how would
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: you not like, how would a normal person not realize?
• 56:20
  Speaker 11: Oh?
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I shouldn't be paying for this other procedure as well.
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and how she was then after he died, Like
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: I just can one hundred percent see if I'm no
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: idea if he did or not. There's no record of it.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: We don't have all the records here, but like it
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: fits the pattern of a lot of the cases he handle.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: And if he had sent her a bill, I know
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: she would have paid it. She would have got on a
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: check book out, written it and sent it and never
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: questioned it for a moment.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: What was the fallout around Floyd County when everyone found
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: out that Burns had been legally charging people.
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: That's a good person.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, weirdly muted. The people remember it, but
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: I can't. It doesn't seem like there was a huge
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: like I'll cry or anything.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: We should so crazy. I mean, even those numbers that
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: you guys are listening in that in that last episode
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: of talking about quick Burns, like you know, seventy five
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: hundred dollars to like someone who liked this, that woman
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: who was you know, like I can't afford this. He's like, look,
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: you know in his response or whatever, like I'm gonna
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: cut it in half. You know, you only owe me
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: in thirty five hundred bucks, you know, because I'm a
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: nice guy and I have money in a rainy day fun,
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: Like what the fuck?
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: Like, yeah, I.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Mean, and he would he really played on the like
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: this whole like like he used Christianity a lot in
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: this sort of pitch of like getting close to families
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: and like getting our trust and then sending these bills
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: and like in a way that made it seem like
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: he's been compassionate about it.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, which makes it evens sleazier.
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: Like yeah, and.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: The one hundred and sixty six fake post mortems again
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: like mentioned in the last sidebar. But I just don't
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: think it's possible, and we know it's not possible from
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: been doing this and not have been, not even caught,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: but not to have others in Food County know about
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: it and be okay with it, which apparently they were
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: to some degree, at least some people in the county
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: administration were.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: Well. He even says when they come to search his
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: house that he'd been tipped off by friends in the
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: police department.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: Right, which is.
• 58:17
  Speaker 12: Like what did he say, Like, Yeah, I've known you're
• 58:20
  Speaker 12: coming for two weeks. You're not going to find anything like,
• 58:22
  Speaker 12: it's like, okay, you should probably stop talking because you're
• 58:25
  Speaker 12: just sounding, you know, spitting off guilty lines.
• 58:29
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, conveniently, my hard drive just had a massive crash.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: Who at least I still have friends of the Flood
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: count police department. Good for me.
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like, oh my god, you think what.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: County would have reacted more and having a defendant tell
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: them straight up that like there's someone on the forest
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: undermining your investigations. You'd think they'd want to try and
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: nail down who that was.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: But maybe they did. Maybe they did, and it was
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: a quiet yeah, slap on the wrist or you have
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: to leave, yeah, early retirement. So it's been a long road.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: But this is it for season one of Proof, and
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: hopefully we'll be back soon with a second season of
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Proof with an entirely new case.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have you cases we're looking at now, but
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: if you have any cases you want just us, please
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: reach out. We'd love to hear from you. This brings
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: us to the end of season one of Proof, at
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: least for now, but the case of Lee, Clark and
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: Kine's story is still ongoing and we will be back
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: to keep you updated on everything that happens, so make
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: sure you're subscribe to our feed to catch future episodes
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: when they're released, and be sure to follow us on
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: social media. Thanks for listening to our first season, and
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: we look forward to coming back with more