Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / The Green Bay Packers: How They Became the NFL’s Most Enduring Dynasty (Part 2)

Transcript

The Green Bay Packers: How They Became the NFL’s Most Enduring Dynasty (Part 2) · The Chuck ToddCast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of our deep dive into
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: how the Green Bay Packers became dynastic. I'm Chuck Todd.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I'm J.A. Adande. So to set the scene, we are
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: at the start of the second Packers title run in
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the 60s. And there's another part of the Lombardi's Packers
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: that I think deserve more attention than it usually gets.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: As we reminded you in the last episode, Green Bay,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: this is Green Bay in 1960. and Green Bay is
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: overwhelmingly white. It's not exactly a diverse city today, but
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: it was certainly whiter back in 1960. It's a small
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: city and a very small black population.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Milwaukee- Small doesn't even do it justice. The 1960 census
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: said 0.01% of the Green Bay population was black.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: So you're saying it was small. Microscopic. Yeah, okay. Milwaukee,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: of course, has a substantial black community. But Green Bay doesn't.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: And yet some of the most important players on Lombardi's
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: championship teams are black. Willie Wood, Elijah Pitts, Bob Jeter.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: And then you look at just one side of the Packers' defense.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: You know, we talked about how important it was during
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the Steelers' episode when they had an all-black defensive line. Well,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: this was even before then. Willie Davis at defensive end,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Dave Robinson at linebacker, Herb Adderley at corner. Three back players,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: same side of the defense. And eventually, of course, all
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: three end up in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Willie Davis is a particularly good way into
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: the story. He comes from Grambling, where he played for
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: the legendary Eddie Robinson, goes to Cleveland first, and he's
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: traded to Green Bay in 1960. And thinking of what
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Green Bay's reputation is, he's thinking to himself, great, fantastic,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Lombardi in Titletown. He's thinking he's been sent someplace that
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: nobody wants to go. You know, he So he's kind
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of mixed. You know, the Lombardi stuff isn't first on
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: his mind. You know, first he's thinking Green Bay more
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: so than Titletown. Lombardi convinced him he's got a role
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: for him. And Davis never misses a game for Green Bay,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: becomes captain of the defense, five championships, Hall of Fame.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: And after football, his life becomes almost as interesting. Business school, entrepreneur,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: corporate boards, and then eventually on the Packers own board.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting about Lombardi and race and his
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: handling of race, and it's worth putting it in the
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: context of the time, right? This isn't, I'm not going
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: to pretend that Green Bay itself was some racial paradise.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: It wasn't, and this is, look, it's not, this would
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: become a recurring theme. It wasn't just in the 60s
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: that we're talking about this. This would, you know, in
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: the 80s, there was a lot of times that a
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: lot of Black players didn't know if they wanted to
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: be in Green Bay. Black players have talked about the
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: difficulty of housing, social life, living in a place with
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: relatively few Black residents. Wherever they go, everybody's looking at them,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: staring at them. A lot of guys got out of
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Green Bay the second the season ended because of that feeling.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: But inside the organization, Lombardi's rule was pretty direct. If
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: an establishment discriminated against his players, the reported message was
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: that the Packers, no matter who was in a Packers uniform,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: would not patronize that establishment. Racial slurs inside the team
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: weren't going to be tolerated. And Meredith makes the point
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: and the argument that Lombardi's own experience with anti-Italian prejudice
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: seemed to impact how he expected white players and frankly
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Green Bay fans to treat the black players.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd experienced life as an outsider. And there's a
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: story that once coming off training camp where he'd been
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: outside in the sun the whole time. So he had
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: naturally darker skin and it got even darker. And they
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: go to a restaurant when they're playing an exhibition in
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: a southern state. and they won't see them and serve
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: him because they think he's black.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: It's funny.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: If you look at pictures of him, especially in his
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: playing days, you know, with that wavy hair and that
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: dark skin, like.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: You could Mediterranean skin there. Yeah.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: So, so there, there's that. I think, you know, just the,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: the education, the, the enlightenment. But yeah, he would tell
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: his players, you know, you can't play for me if
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: you have any type of prejudice. And he had been,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: and he heard things like, the book quotes, uh, Alice
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Karras are playing the lions and at halftime, the lions
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: are winning. And Kara says, what do you think about that?
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: You big fat Italian epithet, just that it just feels
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: comfortable saying to him.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry. When you, when you relayed that story,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like Webster's dad, you know, Webster's dad used to
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: tie it up slurs like this. And if those of
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: you have a certain age, you'll remember Alex Karras became a,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: lovable TV sitcom dad. Alex Karras. Not as lovable as
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: you thought.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: So one, I think, understanding was that Lombardi would let
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: his black players, you know, have a couple days off
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: during training camp or even during practice to go down
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: to Milwaukee so that they could go to a black
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: barbershop because there weren't any in Green Bay. So that's
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: a critical understanding. You know, the understanding of hair and
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: the importance of hair and, and having someone who can
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: relate to your hair. And so I thought that was
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: a pretty big concession on his part.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I remember there's always been stories about this. The first,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: you know, that certain coaches, they bring in a black
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: barber and it like, it makes a lot of the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: players feel, Oh, you, you actually, they, they would feel seen.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: You'd see that that certain code that more and more
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: coaches started to get this throughout. Yeah.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: So little, little goes a long way. You know, and
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: these black players in the 60s just aren't peripheral players, right?
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Robinson creates the pressure that decides the 1966 NFL championship game.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Adderley scores the first pick six in Super Bowl history.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: So this isn't diversity as a footnote to.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: The dynasty, right?
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: This is an essential part of title talent in the championship.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: It is. I don't know. Is it notable to you
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: or not that basically the defense had black players, but
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: the offense didn't?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of similar to the coaching, you know,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: predicament today, like black coaches get more opportunities on defense
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: than they, than they do on offense. Um, it, you
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: wonder if the style that, that Lombardi preferred was more
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: suitable to white players or white players kind of fit
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: that mold that he was looking for. Um, I don't know. I,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought that that much into it, but, um,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: you know, we know that, you know, it was going
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: to take a while for quarterbacks. It's interesting because, you know, um,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: They drafted a black quarterback from USC, but as was
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: the times, they moved him to defensive back, right?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Yep. Willie Woods. Yeah. Well, this was– I mean, look,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: this was football back then. I mean, we go– Warren
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Moon had to go to Canada, right, before the NFL
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: would accept him. That's a full decade later after this. Yeah.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: We're still– that took a lot– that's the 80s. You know,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: when you tell people that, wait, that must have been
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: in the 50s. Oh, no. That was the 80s.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: 80s.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Let's get back to 1960. Yeah.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: And in 60, the first time Green Bay goes to
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: the championship game with Lombardi, they lose to the Philadelphia
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Eagles and Chuck Bednarik. Jim Taylor gets the ball in
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: the final play, but he stopped short. The Packers lose 17-13.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: It's Lombardi's only championship game loss as Green Bay's head coach. Afterward,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Lombardi tells his players, this is the last time anything
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: like this is going to happen to us. And today,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: after today, we're going to be world champions. It's one
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: of those quotes that sounds better because we know what
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: happens next.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: It's true, but that didn't feel like a quote that
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you were going to put up in the locker room, though.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: It felt almost like a, damn it, we're not going
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: to have this happen again type of, but who knows?
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: We weren't actually in that room. But look, he basically
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: calls it 1961, the Packers get back, and now we've
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: got one of the great stories here. Paul Hornick is
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: called into active duty during the Berlin crisis, basically the
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: creation of the Berlin Wall.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't think Cold War era geopolitics were going to
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: come into this story of the Packers, but they were
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: right there.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: In the middle of it. In fact, it wasn't just Hornet.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Three Packers have military obligations at the time. The NFL
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: championship game is coming, and Lombardi took advantage of that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: useful telephone number that a young John Kennedy handed him,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: and he calls the White House. Lombardi had gotten to
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: know him. He reaches out. And he just simply asked him,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: can you extend the Christmas furlough for Hornig? And Kennedy's
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: famous line is, Paul Hornig isn't going to win the
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: war on, what's that?
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say, we choose to
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: go to the moon.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: He says, well, Paul Hornig isn't going to win the
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: war on Sunday, but the football fans of this country
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: deserve the two best teams on the field that day.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: So there you go. Hornig gets his furlough. And then
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: he makes the president look pretty smart. championship game is
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: at Green Bay. The Giants are the opponent. And Green
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Bay just annihilates Vince Lombardi's old team. 37 to nothing.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Hornig is responsible for 19 points. Ready for this? A touchdown.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Three field goals. Four extra points. It was the first
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Packers championship game, though, in 17 years. It's Lombardi's first title.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: And suddenly the story isn't whether Green Bay can survive
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: without Curly Lambeau anymore. It's whether anybody is going to
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: stop this young coach and this new dynasty that he's
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: building and Vince Lombardi's Packers.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Well, and they certainly nobody stops him the next year
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: in 62. They're playing the Giants again. This time it's
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: at Yankee Stadium. Miserable conditions, 17 degrees, 40 mile an
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: hour winds. And one of the stars of this game
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: is Jerry Kramer.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: A guard, right? Only on Lombardi's team is a guard
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: getting to be a star, right?
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: But he's also handling the kicking duties, right?
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: No hornets. that day, huh?
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Three field goals and an extra point. I think Hornig
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: was hurt. So Green Bay scores 16 points. Kramer scores
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: 10 of them. I love a guard scoring 10 points.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: 16 to 17. And I feel like it's a nice
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: coda because– you know, he, uh, Lombardi had been on
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: that staff in 58, they lose to the Colts and
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Yankee stadium, the giants and the Colts and, you know,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: the greatest game ever played, right. You know, and it's
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: really the game that launches the NFL into the modern era,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: you know, big TV ratings got New York in it and, uh,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: the Colts and Johnny Unitas. And so, you know, now
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: it's kind of setting the stage for this next iteration
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: of the NFL. Um, Ray Nitschke later remembered this as
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: the point where Green Bay stopped being this Mrs.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Bushville. Now it's Titletown.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: The Packers are Titletown and the NFL is firmly established
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: as America's sport.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Well, not to bring back our New York bias here,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: but the Packers beating the Giants in back-to-back years, including
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: the second one being in New York where they do this,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: the New York sports writers had to notice. So, of course,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: they had to start calling Green Bay Titletown. I wonder
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: if they were beating it. Take two fights. It's a
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: green bag. Exactly. They got to watch him. They got
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to watch him in their own backyard. Look, there's still
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: a problem that green Bay has. And here's where I
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: want to stop the football story for a second, because
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: something else happens at almost exactly the same moment as
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: they're winning titles. And without it, we don't know whether
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: title town survives. So we talked about it earlier. Green
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Bay had built a new stadium, but New York is
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: still has New York and all those fans in Chicago
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: and Los Angeles. And if everybody sells, their TV rights independently.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Green Bay is never going to generate the amount of
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: money for their TV rights as the Giants are going
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: to generate. And this is where the NFL makes one
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: of the most consequential decisions in the history of American sports.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: They sell the television package collectively and they share the money.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: But it isn't clear whether what they're doing is actually legal, J.A.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, initially there's an antitrust problem, and a federal court
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: blocks the pooled arrangement. This is very un-American, right? It's socialism, basically.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: So the NFL goes to Congress.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And this is, you know, look, it's a law that's
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: still on the books today. Congress passes what is called
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961. Kennedy signs the bill,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: and now the league can negotiate television rights collectively. And
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: the revenue gets shared. And think about what this does
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: for the small town, a port city off of the
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes named Green Bay. Television value of a Packers
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: game isn't simply determined by how many television sets are
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: sitting in a smaller northeastern city in Wisconsin. Green Bay
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: gets a share, an equal share, of the national NFL package.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Lombardi himself later says the television package probably saved football
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: in Green Bay. It's not hyperbole. This is what it is.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: We were just telling you this comparison in the last episode.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Baseball still operates sort of in this way where they
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: don't share everything. And the Minnesota Twins are the Twins.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: They don't get equal rights that the Dodgers get. So
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: this is the second great structural accident, if you will,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: or maybe structural insight in Packers history. In 1923, Green
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Bay creates a corporation designed so nobody can get rich
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: by selling the team. They cannot sell their profit off
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: their shares. That's one way Green Bay survives. Then Green
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Bay survives long enough for the NFL to create an
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: economic system where being located in Green Bay is no
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: longer automatically means that they're going to have to play
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: money ball and be poor. So whether this is sliding
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: doors or whatever, but it's the, it's, it's the second
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: time that the outside circumstances save the Packers.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And this is where the Packers story and the NFL
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: story really do become the same story. It, it, It's funny,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: you wonder if the NFL would have taken off the
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: 60s or when the NFL, you know, it starts with that.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: 1958 championship game.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Sure. And then into the 60s where, you know, at
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: the start of the 60s, baseball is still truly America's pastime.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: By the end of the decade, the NFL has surpassed it.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: And another key thing is the addition and the creation
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: of NFL films with Steven and Sable. And, you know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: the myth making that we talked about. So, you know,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: it had benefited and Lombardi had benefited from the myth
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: making in the golden era of sports writing and New
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: York and all those great sports writers in New York City.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: But now we're in the television era, but also we're
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: in the sports film era, right? And NFL films and
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: the mythology that was created by then. And Lombardi made
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: for a great character. Steve Sable said that voice of
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: his was just one of the great voices you think of.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: so many of the great leaders, JFK among them, or
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Martin Luther King, this memorable and distinctive voice and vocal delivery.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: And Lombardi was so great for the cameras. So it's
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Vince Lombardi, Vince Lombardi without the NFL film stats.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: No. And, and look like, you know, baseball needed, you know, you,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: you quoted Grantland rice earlier, right? Like, you know, it
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: is narrative and mythology and myth-making is what makes a sport,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: you know, last and become nostalgic and why people want
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: to follow it and all this stuff. And, you know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: football didn't have the same, you know, baseball had this
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: sort of sports writers had sort of created this, this
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: historic narrative and nostalgia for, for decades. And football didn't
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: have that connective tissue in the same way. And NFL
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: films essentially being birthed when we move from the written
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: word to the visual, which, which, which is arguably what
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: helped football as well.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And parody and competitive balance. Right. So, so, uh, Pete
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Rozelle wanted the money to be distributed equally, and he
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: also wanted everyone to have an equal competitive chance. So
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: the NFL draft helps create that. The unbalanced schedules, right,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: help create that. And so the Packers can exist in
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: multiple ways and remain competitive.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Well, look, I don't want to– I'm going to– a
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: small tangent here, right? There's a contemporary analogy here that's
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: going to be hard to miss because we're sort of
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: in the middle of this. If you're a football fan,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you're sort of– being forced to think about this issue
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: quite a bit, particularly in college football, because this is
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: the argument college football is having right now, ironically. If
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: you actually want Alabama and USC and Ohio State and
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Nebraska and a Miami and a Vanderbilt and a Northwestern
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: to inhabit the same competitive ecosystem as schools that don't
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: generate the same local revenue or aren't a part of
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: a conference that generates huge revenue, eventually you might have
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: to decide how much of that wealth is going to
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: get shared. And how much of that wealth do you hoard?
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: The NFL figured this out 65 years ago. And Green
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Bay is the greatest proof of concept, J.A. And I
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: think about this. It's like if it you know, if
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: you don't do this, then, you know, you're not going
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to have competitive balance in college football. Yeah.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And in college football, we're saying, hey, we might share
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: within our conference. We're not sharing within our divisions. And
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: as a result, you have things like the dissolution of
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the Pac-12, right? Because the super-haves, the ultra-haves, the Big
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Ten and the SEC in particular, don't want to share
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: with the have-nots. And you're right. You're not going to
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: have a Green Bay Packers story. You could say Indiana
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Hoosiers that won the championship, that that's a great feel-good
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: underdog story, but they have a huge, some say the
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: largest alumni base. And they also have the Big Ten
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: TV rights deal. And so they're not the same as
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the Green Bay Packers. But as much as the underdog
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: story as they've been, they're coming from a better position
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: than the Green Bay Packers would have been if not
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: for the revenue sharing that Pete Rozelle instituted.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to 1963, J.A., and we'll get
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: back to Mr. Hornick.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: So 1963 brings a pretty significant problem. Paul Horning gets
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: suspended for the entire season for gambling. Commissioner P.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Roselle's investigation. Do I need to move my FanDuel sign
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: from behind me here?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you might want to cover it up for this segment.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Horning's bet on NFL games, including Packers games. Horning insists
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: he never bet against Green Bay. Not against them. He
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: bet on them. But it's still a huge scandal. Alex Karras,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Webster's dad. Get suspended as well.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Look, Lombardi takes this pretty personally because, look, well, you know,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: this isn't simply I've lost my halfback. He sees it
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: as betrayal because, you know, he had kind of had this,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: you know, relationship with Hornig where, you know, it was
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: sort of like, don't screw this up, right? Lombardi had
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: invested a lot in Hornig. Lombardi had protected him. Lombardi
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: knew that he had sort of enjoyed life. And I'll
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: just use that in quotes, right? And he thought he
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: understood him. And he built an entire offense around him.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: But he was always trying to protect Hornick from Hornick.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: And now Hornick put all of that and potentially the
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: integrity of the league, actually, in a terrible position. But
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: here's the other side of Lombardi again. You would think
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: because he did all that, Lombardi would be like, that's it.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I'm out.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I'm done with Paul. But Hornick serves his suspension. He
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: takes it. He's reinstated. And Lombardi brings him back. The
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: standards can be brutal. the relationships he decided were not disposable,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: but you know, it's funny. It's like, if you, you
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: didn't know the story and you just knew the caricatures
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of Lombardi, J.A., you would have assumed, well, Hornick probably
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: never played another down for Green Bay ever again.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Well, what's amazing, though, is that the NFL let him
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: play again, right? It's not the lifetime. And I mean,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Hornick wasn't banned for a good. He's in the Hall
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: of Fame. you know, unlike Pete Rose, for example, you know,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: it wasn't this thing. And one thing that's told in
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: the Meredith's book is that Horning, when he, when he
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: does go in to meet with Roselle, he says, yeah,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I bet. But do you really want me to go
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: down to Washington and tell about all the other people
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: I knew bet too? You know, do you want to
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: turn this into a congressional thing? I can take down
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: the whole league if you want, or I can just,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you know, you can reinstate me. You know, I understand
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I got to serve my penance, but, There's a reason,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: and you could argue that's the reason why it wasn't
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a lifetime ban. So Roselle signs off on it in
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: addition to Lombardi signing off on it. But it's just
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: interesting to me that this wasn't the scandal equivalent to
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose or even, you know, with Manhattan basketball teams.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: It is interesting, though, that Meredith portrays Hornig as saying,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: it's a mighty fine league you got there, Mr. Commissioner.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: It'd be a shame if something happened to it. Yeah.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: So one thing that happens though is that you know
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: horning when he comes back he's never quite the same
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: you know as he's getting older and the packers team
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is aging 64 is a disappointment um horning and taylor
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: aren't quite what they were stars trying to carry more
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: of the offensive self and in 65 they get back
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: at first they survived baltimore and leads to one of
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: the stranger rule change stories in nfl history uh don
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: chandler attempts a late field goal appears to some people
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: including the colts uh To be wide right, the officials
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: call it good. Game goes to overtime, Chandler kicks another one,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: and Green Bay advances. And the contrary is significant enough,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the NFL extends the height of the uprights the following season.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: So you've seen those old highlights of the shorter uprights,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: so the longer uprights come in.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I'm sure the Colts thought that the refs were in
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the tank for the Packers. Then Cleveland comes around. They've
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: got Jim Brown. There's snow. There's mud. We're in Lambeau Field,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and the Packers win that one 23-12. Lombardi has another championship,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: so now he's got three titles in five seasons. So
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the football world, though, itself is changing quite a bit
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: underneath them because there are now two major professional football
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: leagues at this point in time, and they're spending enormous
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: amounts of money trying to essentially beat each other up.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: and it sort of starts to set up what, of course,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: we know is coming. But at this point in time,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: it is putting a lot of pressure on the NFL.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: The American Football League starts in 1960, and initially the
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: NFL treated it like a little minor league annoyance, but
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: then the NFL gets television money. Excuse me, the AFL
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: got its television money. Then Sonny Werblin and the Jets
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: give Joe Namath a contract that at the time is
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: worth something like $ 400, 000. which was just an enormous sum
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of money back then. And it turned it into a
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: full-on war between these competing leagues. Players are getting bid up.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: The leagues are fighting for talent. And eventually they decide
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: they just can't keep doing this. So June 1966, the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: AFL and NFL announced their merger. Full integration will come later,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: but immediately they've got to create something new. And the
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: champion of the old NFL, is now going to play
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: the champion of this new league, the AFL, and it
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: gives us something new.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: If you're Vince Lombardi, right, there's only one acceptable outcome.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Whatever version of the quote or saying you want, it's.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Going to apply here, right? Well, look, I mean, you
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: want to talk about pressure that's on there because Green
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Bay isn't simply going to play for another championship. Vince
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Lombardi is about to be asked to prove that the
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: league that he has spent his career dominating is actually
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: the best football league in the world, let alone in America,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: especially compared to the AFL. And he certainly got to
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: prove that this league is better than the league that
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: was trying to overthrow it. And nobody understands the stakes
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: more than Lombardi. And the guy who almost never shows
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: fear is terrified. This was an amazing part of this story.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: You think Vince Lombardi is, J.A., he's tough. He's stoic, right?
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: He's expressionless. But here he is. It's June 15th, 1967.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: It's the L.A. Memorial Coliseum. You can all visualize it
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: because this is a stadium that is still there. Today,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: we call it Super Bowl I, but that is not
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: what the name of this game was at the time. Officially,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: this is the AFL-NFL World Championship game. And everything about
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: it tells you that nobody fully understands yet what they're creating.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Because guess what? It's not a sellout in the Coliseum.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: It's just like a typical USC game, about two-thirds full.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: 61,000 people. But remember, this is a stadium that holds
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: nearly 100 or over 100,000 people. So there are tens
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: of thousands of empty seats for Super Bowl I. The
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: game's blacked out in Los Angeles, by the way. And uniquely,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: two television networks are carrying the same football game simultaneously
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: because CBS... has the rights to the NFL. NBC has
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: the rights to the AFL. And neither wanted to surrender
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the rights to broadcast this NFL-AFL World Championship game. So
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: both broadcasted, J.A. It's not like a Skycast version like
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: ESPN gives us or a Manning cast. We literally have
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: just two different traditional broadcasts.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: But the crazy thing, and it's almost impossible to comprehend today,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: is that neither... Network preserved a complete recording of it.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: J.A., working at NBC, the stories of how much incredible
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: history was just taped over in the 60s. Forget just sports.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Think about all the civil rights coverage of the 50s
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: and 60s because nobody wanted to say videotape. This was
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: really expensive back then. So stuff got reused all the time.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: And so Super Bowl I, there's more moving image documentation.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Of all sorts of events from this period than there
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: is of the original television presentation of the first Super Bowl,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: it's a game that eventually becomes the biggest annual television
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: event in America, right? It's traditionally always the most watched
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: television event every single year. And neither network at the
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: time thinks, you know what, maybe we ought to save
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: this tape. This is a unique event. Maybe we ought
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: to put this one on the show.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I never thought of it, though. So you just told
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: that story about NBC. But the whole advance of videotape
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: was that it was reusable, right? Film was once only.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: You only get one shot. So I could see how, hey,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: there's this technological advance where you can use the tape
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: over and over and again. So let's reuse it. Let's
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: tape over it without anybody stopping to think, hey, we're
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: a news network. We should be preserving history, not being
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: as cheap as possible. So there is a private recording program.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: A guy named Marvett Hopp records much of the CBS
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: broadcast in quadruplex tape in Pennsylvania. So another guy in Pennsylvania,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: somebody in Pennsylvania that recorded the Wilt Chamberlain 100-point game.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: No, he was in Massachusetts. He was in UMass.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: The game was played in Pennsylvania. But these random people
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: with their recording devices, those people survived. Of course, there's
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: the NFL films footage too. There's that famous footage of
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the Grambling Marching Band and the guy, the jetpack guy
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: flying in Rocket Man or whatever he was. So we've
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: seen some of that, but we don't have the whole game,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: there's gaps, there's commercials that were cut. Um, some of
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the plays in and out of the breaks are missing
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: parts of the third quarter halftime and grambling. Um, and
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: there's a decades long ownership argument over the copyright and
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: what the recording is worth.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: So I got obsessed with this, you know, say the
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: NFL network tried to reconstruct the game the best they
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: could for Superbowl 50. It's the only right. Superbowl one
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: was the only Superbowl. They don't have a complete recording
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: of the show. And so, um, you know, they, nobody's
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: ever found the pristine copies anywhere. So they put it
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: all together and, and they tried to rebuild its own
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: history and they tried to show it. And I watched it.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: It was, you know, it was so hard. It was,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: it was, I appreciate that there's that this exists. And
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: yet at the same time, because we're so used to
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: seeing games, the way we see them, it's a terrible watch.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: it really is. You'd be better off just listening to
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: an audio recording, but let's back to the game itself.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Lombardi understands the stakes here in January 67. Even if
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: the rest of America doesn't quite yet understand if the
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Kansas city chiefs wins, this wins this game. Lombardi isn't
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: simply the coach who lost a championship. He's the coach
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: who allowed the upstart AFL to beat the NFL in
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: the first head to head championship, right? Frank, Gifford knows
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Lombardi from their Giants days. Remember, Lombardi was the offensive
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: coordinator for the Giants and Gifford was his running back.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: He talks to him before the game and he notices
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: something about Lombardi that he had never seen before. Lombardi's
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: holding his arm and he's shaking like a leaf. And
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Ray Nitschke says later, it's the only time he ever
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: remembers Lombardi truly looking nervous. He had the weight of
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: the NFL on his shoulders, J.A. Yeah, and he felt it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: And I think he realized his demeanor was affecting the team.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: So on the bus over... to the Coliseum, at one
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: point he gets up in the aisle of the bus
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: and starts doing a little soft shoe tap dance. And
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: he sits down and the assistant coach goes, what was
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: that about? And he says, I think the players are tight.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: They need to loosen up. But maybe he was trying
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: to do it to himself. He was that noticeably uptight
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: that Gifford could notice it. And, you know, Kansas City
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: was no joke. They're hanging around. It's only 14 to
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: 10 at halftime.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Are you telling me they're matriculating the ball? Are they
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: matriculating the ball down the field?
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: That's coming later. They weren't matriculating yet. But they are
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: hanging with the Packers. And then Willie Wood, back at USC,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: intercepted back in the Coliseum, I should say. Intercepts Len
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Dawson early in the third quarter, returns it to the
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: five Green Bay scores. And then, you know, the gap
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: becomes obvious. And Packers win 35-10. Bart Starr is MVP.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Max McGee, who had been out all night drinking, still
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: manages to catch the first touchdown. You know, four catches
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: during the regular season. And, yeah, he wasn't exactly in
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: bed by curfew the night before.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Right. No, it's amazing. You know, he didn't think he
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: was going to play, so he went out because he figured, hey,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: I'm the backup. I can go out. You're Max McGee.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: You're not playing. Why not, right? Because, boy, Dollar's the
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: starting wide receiver. He's going to play. But what happens?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Dollar gets hurt on the back of his second possession,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: and McGee goes in, and, you know, but he sees
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: things are going. He says, hey, Starry tells me, he's like,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I'm open. You know, you give me the ball, and
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I can get that card.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: So the MVP.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: would get a car star wound up winning the MVP
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: and getting the car, but Max McGee, um, uh, 37 yard, uh,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: touchdown finishes with seven catches, 138 yards and two touchdowns.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Sounds like that's a day.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, that's a night. That's
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: a game. It might be the greatest, uh, hangover performance.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Try to think of it.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Who else is famously... It's not the same as pitching
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: a no-hitter while you're on.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, Doc Ellis pitched a
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: no-hitter while on mushrooms, right? Or an LSD or something?
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Some type of psychedelic drug, right.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: So, it's still not the most famous game. It's not
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: the definitive game. It's hard to believe that, you know,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: in the Super Bowl era, something could be more memorable
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: than the Super Bowl. But this is the game. There
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: is one game that when you think of Green Bay,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: when you think.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Of the Packers, when you think of Lambeau Field....
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: It's this game coming up a year later, right? The
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: next season, the NFL championship, um, of 1967. Green Bay
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: trying to do something nobody in this championship game era
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: has done. That's win three in a row. Um, but they're,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of limping to the finish line a
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: little bit like the bulls going for the three feet
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: in 98 and the last dance, right? They're old, they're hurt. Um,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: they're tired. Hornig is gone. Jim Taylor is gone. The
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: backfield's beating up. They're older. They're nine, four and one.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Jerry Kramer knows it. Um, You know, that's why the
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: instant replay book is an extraordinary document because he's not
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: remembering the dynasty 20 years later. He's recording it while
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: it's happening. The players don't know how the story is
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: going to end. And throughout the year, there's this question
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: hanging over them. Do we have one more?
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: You know, what's amazing about it is that, you know,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: that to it's always funny when you make a decision
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: to follow somebody around like they did with Jerry Kramer
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and it ends up being a championship season. Right. it's
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: quite remarkable, but here we are. It's new year's Eve.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: It's December 31st, 1967. It's Dallas. It's green Bay. It's
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: the ice bowl. All right. It's December 31st, 1967. As
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: we've already established, there is no frozen tundra in this game.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: There is no John Fasenda that said it, but it
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: is cold. It's the ice bowl. It's Dallas and green Bay.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: And there's another though, mythology that over the years with
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: many a Packer fan and frankly, an older Cowboys fan
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: will tell you, which is, did the field freeze by
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: accident or was it a Vince Lombardi ploy, Mr. Adande?
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Well, they had an $ 80, 000 heating system that Lombardi was
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: very proud of and that they had showed off the
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: night before, I think, to the media that was in town, like, hey,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: here's this heating system. Gold.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. Right. We're in good shape.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Oils are underground and it's going to be fine. So
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: did they turn it off? Supposedly. And you could understand because, well,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: first of all, it wasn't supposed to be that cold.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: They didn't anticipate it being that cold. They all went
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: to sleep thinking, okay, it's not going to be that bad.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: And then they wake up in the morning and it's like,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: oh my God, did we check the weather report? And
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: have you been outside yet?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Well, look, it is. And the reason the conspiracy started
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: a little bit is because Dallas was a team with
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: more speed than the aging, older Packers. So that was
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: the assumption. Now, look, the evidence points toward something a
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: lot less conspiratorial. And as Jay and I will both
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: testify to all the time, the great conspiracies are always
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: more boring than you realize. And this one might be
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: because it was so cold. Right. They're all debunkable. The
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: first generation system that this install was having was being
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: pushed beyond what it could handle. As J.A. just pointed out,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: it was even colder than they thought it was going
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to be. Well, they put a tarp over the field
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: and the irony to the tarp, right? This was something
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: that I think many a science student would say, why
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: did you do this? Because what the tarp did was
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: trap the moisture. They pull off the tarp. The second
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: the moisture hits the air, the field froze immediately, right?
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Chuck Mersine would later said, you could practically watch it happen, right?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: There's stories that Frank Gifford coffee was literally, he could
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: watch it freeze in the booth there. So there's really
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: no good evidence that somehow Vince Lombardi secretly turned Lambeau
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: into a skating rink because how did he know that
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: was going to be helpful to his own players, by
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: the way? But the fact that everyone believed he was
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: capable of it tells you how much The, the, the
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: league and other teams feared Lombardi, right? He was such
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a larger than life figure. They figured, well, he could
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: do anything. Maybe he, maybe he was behind this.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: We couldn't control the weather though. And it's 13 below
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: game time.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: He was a good Catholic. So you never know.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Minus thirties, maybe minus forties, all this stuff. The irony
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: is that, you know, and another way to debunk the
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theory is that, um, the Packers actually more affected
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: by the weather than the Cowboys were Bart star gets
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: hit and fumbles early. And then there's a muff punt
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: by the Cowboys. So two fumbles to, you know, difficulties
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: that the Packers had holding onto the ball in the
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: cold air lead to 10 points for the Cowboys.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: By the way, I love the idea that, that the
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: refs couldn't even use their whistle. Yeah. The P was frozen.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I'm sure.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: But, So the Cowboys are up 17-14, you know, thanks
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: in part to those 10 gift points that they got.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: And Green Bay gets the ball a little under five
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: minutes left. They need a touchdown. And then this is
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: where we kind of go into the slow motion. And
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: we do allow the NFL films to take over.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: No, the Packers start at their own 32. And remember
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: what the field is like, right? Nobody can plant at
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: this point. The wind chill continues just to freeze everything.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Nobody can cut every step. is a negotiation. Starr starts
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: moving them slowly. Donnie Anderson, Chuck Mersine. Mersine is one
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: of the great pieces of this.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I like the Starr, like the confidence though, where he
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: starts the huddle and he says, we're going in. And
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: one of his teammates said, basically, actually it's Mersine that said,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: you know, he had become like the personification of Lombardi
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: on the field. So these guys that start out on
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: opposite ends now, and here in this critical moment, You know,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: they're lockstep. And he's really the embodiment, the on-field version
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: of Lombardi at this point, the toughness.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Well, look, and Lombardi, he was picked up. He was
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: basically picked up in the middle of the season, Mercine.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: And suddenly the third championship is on the line. And
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: there's Chuck Mercine is one of the most important players
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: on the field. And it's amazing to me that they
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: even decided to throw the ball, but he catches a pass.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: He runs and Green Bay now gets inside the Dallas 10.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: And then they're at the one. Time's running out. There's
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: no more timeouts. They try to run it. Nothing. They
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: try again. Nothing. And now it's third down. And you
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: now can picture the NFL films moment. There's 16 seconds left.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: If they run the ball and don't get in, there's
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: probably not one more play. The game probably ends before
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: they get another play. So star comes to the sideline
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: and he tells Lombardi that the backs can't get any footing, right?
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: He doesn't want to. So star thinks, you know what?
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm closer. Essentially. Just, I don't have to
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: move as quickly. I can get in. And Lombardi says, okay,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: run it. And let's get the hell out of here.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: And now go back to the chalkboard, right? Remember the sweep.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Remember all that repetition and all that drilling, all that film,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: all those years of Lombardi insisting that if everybody understands
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: their responsibility, the play will work. So this is the call.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: The call is Brown, right? 31 wedge. Jerry Kramer has studied.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Dallas defensive tackle Jethro Pugh. Kramer believes Pugh tends to
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: come up high in this situation. Center Ken Bowman and
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Kramer can get underneath him. Starr calls the play, but
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: there's one thing Starr does not tell the huddle. The
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: rest of the team doesn't realize that Starr plans to
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: keep the ball himself. The Packers line up. Kramer and
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Bowman fire into Pugh. They create the crease, and Starr
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: simply follows them. Touchdown, Green Bay 21, Dallas 17. 16
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: seconds had been left when the ball was snapped, And
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: the Green Bay Packers have won their third consecutive NFL
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: championship again. Because remember, they did it in 29, 30,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and 31. And this is their second three-peat. Same franchise.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: It is, it seems, you know, because you know the
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: end of the story, you're like, well, of course they did.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: They were the Packers. The Packers always win those games.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: But man, that was not a given in that moment. Yeah,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: it was so close to me.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's like the Bulls in the last dance,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: trailing in in game seven, you know, of the conference finals, right?
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Like they almost didn't get to Utah to, to defend
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: the championship and to go for the three P. So yeah,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: it was almost over before they, they had a chance to,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: to get back to the second Superbowl. Dick Schaap thinks
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: it's over. So he's working on, on what would become
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: his room and play with, with, with Jerry Kramer. He's
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: working on a book, but he doesn't know what the
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: title is. And, You know, he thinks it's going to
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: be like the end of the road or something like that, because,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: you know, the team just looked like it was out
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: of gas and things were winding down.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: And make a confession, J.A., isn't that a better ending
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: for a book?
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I think this is a better. So it's a pretty
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: good ending, too. I mean, it's ideal. I mean, I mean,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Dixia had to be doing cartwheels once he defrosted because.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, I know. But I kind of, you know. what
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: the best thing, if you can't write about victory, you
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: want to write about tragedy though, right?
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: I'd rather write victory is better for sales.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Trust me.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Like when I was in Chicago, sometimes if the bears
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: won on Sunday, that was an actual 30 to 40,000,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: you know, sales of the paper at the newsstand.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: They had a book to sell.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And he winds up with not only a victory, but
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Jerry Kramer throws probably the most famous block in NFL history.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: And We've talked about the onset of television and the
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: role television played and NFL films played in the rise
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: of the NFL in the 60s. There's a new thing
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: called instant replay. That was a new device that had
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: really just been implemented, I think it was that season
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: or within the previous couple seasons. And so they're able to,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: while they're televising Lombardi in the locker room and everybody
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: in the locker room, the celebratory Packer locker room, and
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: they replay the, hey, let's look at the block. And
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: let's look at the play. And Lombardi's saying, hey, look
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: at Kramer. What a block.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: How about that?
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: And so they replayed it over and over and over again.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: And so Kramer, probably a lot of people hadn't heard of,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: is now nationally famous. And so when he comes to
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: speak to Dick Schaap's class that he teaches at Columbia University,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: and as he's recounting the story and recounting the aftermath
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: of it, he says, thank God for instant replay. And
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Schaap says- That's the title of the book.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: And I love that origin story of all time. Yeah. Well,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: now we go to Superbowl too. Not nearly as dramatic, right?
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Not quite.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: It's the Oakland Raiders. This one wasn't as tense. The Raiders,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: you know, we're still kind of new to.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: This, right? Al Davis is Raiders. Yeah.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Green Bay wins 33 to 14. Herb Adderley returns at
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: interception 60 yards per TD, the first pick six in
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl history. Bart Starr, Super Bowl MVP again. It
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: winds up being Lombardi's final game as head coach of
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: the Packers. He had said after the Ice Bowl that, hey,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: this is the next to last game that we're going
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: to coach.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: He was ready. He was winding down. You know, there's
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: one more image here that I want to sort of
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: convey to folks that I think is appropriate. So today,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: when an NFL team wins the Super Bowl, eventually somebody
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: does what? They take the Lombardi trophy. and they put
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: it over their head, right? They lift it over their head,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: and you can just see the image, right? The trophy
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: doesn't have that name yet, though, right? Lombardi is still alive.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: So when Green Bay wins their second Super Bowl, they
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: don't get to lift a Lombardi trophy. Jerry Kramer and
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Forrest Gregg get to lift Vince Lombardi, the man himself.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: That's not a one-handed thing like with the trophy.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: No, it's not. But if you can't lift the Lombardi trophy,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I think lifting the coach Lombardi is best five championships
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: in seven seasons. Let me repeat, five in seven seasons, right?
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: I guess in fairness, you might have to come up
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: with a Belichick trophy or something as well. It's the
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: only thing we come close to. Three straight at the end,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: two Super Bowls. He's done coaching the Green Bay Packers,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: and now he's done with the Packers and yet another
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: important distinction. Lombardi decides that being both head coach and
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: general manager has become too much. The organization has grown,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: the league has grown, and the two jobs have grown,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: and it's hard for One person to do both. So
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: he decides to hand the team to his longtime defensive coordinator,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Phil Bankston. And Lombardi stays, just kicks himself upstairs, stays
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: as general manager and almost immediately realizes he's made a
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: huge mistake.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: He misses coaching and the players miss him because Bankston
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: just doesn't have that same drive and, you know, fire
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: that Lombardi had. And then you're not the same type
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: of disciplinarian.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: But, you know, he's not going to go back. Walk
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: downstairs and tell Phil, sorry, I've changed my mind. Give
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: me my team back. But there's something else that Lombardi
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: wants by this point as well. And he's, you know,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: this isn't new. He wants a piece of the team.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: He wants ownership. And he actually asks about buying or
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: getting a piece of the Packers. And this is where
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: the structure we've been talking about since the beginning of
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: this episode matters here again. I don't care if you're
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Vince Lombardi. The Green Bay Packers can't simply say, Vince,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: all right, you've been amazing. You've made all these contributions.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Here's 5% of the team, right? Like Magic Johnson, right?
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: You're just not going to get that. That's not how
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: this thing works.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: It's pretty remarkable because you think if ever a coach
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: deserves some equity and deserves that right to walk into
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: the owner's office and say, I want a piece of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: the team, it's Vince Lombardi after winning five championships.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: But Green Bay can't do it. or perhaps they won't
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: do it. Maybe they didn't want to try to make
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: an exception here. They never had before and they weren't
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: going to do it now. Well, there's another NFL team
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: that desperately wants relevancy and was willing to do whatever
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: it took to get them Washington. They can give him
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: something much closer to what he wants. He wants to
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: be coach. He wants to be general manager. He wants
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: football authority and he gets an interest. He gets an
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: ownership interest. So in 1969, Vince Lombardi leaves green Bay
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: for Washington, DC. And, I don't want to oversimplify this
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: and simply say Green Bay refusing him ownership is the
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: reason he left. He did want to coach again, right?
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: All these coaches look at Bill Belichick. He couldn't give
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: it up. Let me get you. Let me try North Carolina.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: And he's already given the job Green Bay job to Bankston.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: There are multiple things going on here, but it's another,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: it's another uncomfortable Packers goodbye, right? Curly Lambeau discovers he
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: doesn't own the Packers. And now Vince Lombardi, after becoming
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: bigger than virtually anybody in professional football history, discovers he's
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: not big enough to own the Packers either.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: And it's not going to be the last one, too. But,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: you know, in this case, Lombardi goes to Washington and
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: they have their first winning season in more than a decade.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: But then, you know, all the health issues and everything
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: start becoming even more.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Noticeable to him.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: He's always had colon problems and at one point he
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: he was having stoppage issues you could say and he'd
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: have you know back when he was.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Well we didn't know this but clearly you know when
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: he took the job at 45 had we had the
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: colon cancer screenings that we're told to get now at
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: 45 who knows right.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: But he was even told you know like like hey
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: you should go get this checked out and lombardi said
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: you really think i'm gonna let a doctor stick something
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: up my ass Can you imagine Lombardi going in?
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: He's still Vince Lombardi. Exactly. Yeah. Right.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: So, so, you know, he had let things linger too
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: long and now it was unavoidable and, but he didn't
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: want to let people know. And Bart Starrs told an
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: incredible story. It was Superbowl 40 in, in Detroit in 2006.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: And they brought, you know, as many Superbowl MVPs as
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: they could to, to be there. And, you know, they
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: were going to be on the field during the game and,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: a couple of days before the game, they all had
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: a media availability. So I was going around and I
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: wound up at Bart Starr's table and he tells the
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: story of he and his wife had bought a new
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: house and they invited Lombardi to come see it. And
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: they'd take a tour around the house and then they
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: sit down in the living room and Lombardi says, you know,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: this is a beautiful home you have here. And Bart
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Starr's wife said, well, you know, we owe it all
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: to you. You know, we wouldn't have all these things.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: And you know, and all this great life that we've had,
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: if not for you and your coaching, your leadership and
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: what you did for my husband's career. And Star said
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Lombardi just got up and walked out. And he's sitting there,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: what was that about? And about a month later, he's
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: in the hospital dying. And Lombardi, Star goes to see
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: him one last time, but he thought that Lombardi was
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: about to get emotional, you know, sharing that moment and
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: realizing the impact that he'd had on Bart Star and
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: his wife's and their life. And just in that state
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: that he was in, knowing that he was ill, knowing
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: that he didn't have much time left, he was going
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: to break down and cry. And he did not want
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: to break down and cry in front of Bart Starr
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: and his wife. And so he just got up and left.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: And that story is just awesome. stuck with me. And,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: you know, prior to reading this book, I didn't know
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: that much about Lombardi. So that was kind of my
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: first insight in Lombardi. But it fits with the image
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: of Lombardi that you have and the popular conception of Lombardi, right?
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: That he was just this tough guy. He had more
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: emotions inside. then he led on but he sure wasn't
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: going to let people see from the outside.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Look georgetown hospital to this day the lombardi cancer center
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: it's named for vince lombardi that's where that's where i
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: believe he was treated um and he dies in september
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: 1970 i mean just think about the super bowl two
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: is in january of 68 he the 68 season he's
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: the gm he goes to washington for the 69 season
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: basically before the football season starts in 1970, he's dead.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Almost immediately, he's 57 when he dies, which is just,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: you know, let's just say J.A. and I are right
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: there at that number. Pretty close, you know. Almost immediately,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: the championship trophy becomes the Lombardi trophy. Green Bay wouldn't
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: give Lombardi a piece of the Packers, but instead, you know,
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: now every team football is playing for a trophy with
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: his name on it. And there's certainly plenty of streets
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: named after Lombardi and Green Bay. But it is interesting
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: to me that, that while the Packers said no to
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: a piece of the team, they will name things after
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: you and they will honor you when they, when, when
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: it is time.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: What's interesting to me is that he exited this world
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: at the time he was basically being pushed aside and
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: off the main stage in America. And again, he was
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: the personification of, of the NFL as the NFL was
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: ascending to this top tier in American entertainment, not just sports,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: American entertainment, you know, that it still occupies to this day.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: And again, every Super Bowl winner holds up a trophy
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: named after him. So he was very much the personification
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: of the NFL. But there's a great book called Brand NFL,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: which looks at how the NFL did become this entertainment
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: and ideological powerhouse in our country. And it makes the
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: case that, yes, Lombardi was the NFL, throughout much of
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: the 60s. But by the late 60s, the NFL needed
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: and pro football needed Joe Naiman because this gives them
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: a rebellious figure, a counterculture, someone for the youth to
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: look up to.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Well, someone who is meeting the moment culturally, right? Yes, absolutely.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: And if there's– look at the NFL today. Look at
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: how they celebrate Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift, right? They
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: always want to be with the current culture, whatever the
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: culture is in the moment. Right.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: And Lombardi was iconic, but he wasn't a pop star
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: in the way, you know, Lombardi wasn't going to be,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: you know, doing a Playboy interview. Right. All these other
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: things that that Joe Namath did. And what's interesting is
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: that Lombardi is aware of it. So he's going around,
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: he's giving speeches, he's talking about, you know, what's happening
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: with the youth now.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: And that it.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: You know, he's very aware and he's very disappointed that
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: in what's happening. You know, he says in one speech
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: in 67, I'm sure you're disturbed like I am by
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: what seems to be a complete breakdown of law and
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: order and the moral code, which is almost beyond belief. Unhappily,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: our youth, the most gifted segment of our population that
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: airs the scientific advances in freedom's breath, the beneficiaries of
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: their elders' sacrifices and achievements seem, in too large numbers,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: to have disregard for the law's authority, for its meaning,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: for its indispensability to their enjoyment of the fullness of life.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: So here he is, Lecturing the young people. And this
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: amazing story in in Marinus's book has Marie, his wife,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: in the hospital with him one night. And he he
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: just in his sleep yells out, Joe, name it. You're
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: not bigger than football. Remember that. So literally from his deathbed,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: he's sending this warning, recognizing what's happening to the culture
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: and to his league. And, you know, he's dead within
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: weeks of that. But he's literally almost, not literally, but
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: almost his last gasp, he's speaking out against Namath and
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: warning him to, like, uphold what we have built here.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. We were having a conversation before
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: we began air about how when somebody dies and the
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: moment they die, you know, who are they and do
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: they become larger than life? You know, he died at
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: 57 and Lombardi becomes this larger-than-life figure. If he just
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: is a retired coach... complaining about Joe Namath from the
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: sidelines for another 15 years. I don't know if he
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: has the same persona that he has now. Think about
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: your touch, right? Think about this right now. He's, you know,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: in death. He's, you know, he's bigger. He's bigger than
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: he ever was. In fact, you could argue there's a
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: whole generation who knows Lombardi through Jim Valvano, right? One
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: of the great speeches of my lifetime, our lifetime is
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: at the Jimmy V event. is Jimmy V himself at
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: the first ESPYs. I think it was, I think it
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: was at the first ESPYs. He's dying of cancer. He's
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: talking about in, and you know, everybody's there to honor him.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: And he's talking about his first coaching job at Rutgers.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: And he's all excited. He's going to be Vince Lombardi.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: And he goes, and I've still, he studied Lombardi. He
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: memorized the speech. Look, he's a good Italian. Of course,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: he's going to look up to Lombardi, right? Valvano is
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: going to look up to Lombardi and he knows exactly
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: how he's going to inspire that freshman team. And back
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: then there was, The freshman couldn't play with the upperclassmen,
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: so he was the coach of the freshman team. And
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: he walks into the locker room, and he's ready to
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: give the greatest motivational speech these kids have ever heard,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: and he's going to copy everything Lombardi had done. So
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: he's locked. He's so locked into Lombardi that he gets
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: to the big finish and tells a bunch of Rutgers
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: freshman basketball players that the three most important things are
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: your family, your religion, and the Green Bay Packers. Whoops.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Wrong team.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: And wrong sport. But that's the point, right? Lombardi becomes
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: at some point in death, not simply the coach of
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: the Packers, but the template for what people imagined a
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: coach was supposed to be, how a coach was supposed
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: to inspire. So imagine now Green Bay for the next
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: 20 years is desperately trying to find somebody to replace
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the great Vince Lombardi.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Now, Everyone who had listened to our Alabama episode of
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Dynastic is going to recognize what was in store for
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: the Green Bay Packers. How do you replace someone who
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: has become synonymous with the institution? Alabama spent years dealing
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: with the shadow of Bear Bryant, and Green Bay has
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: about spent decades wrestling with the shadow of Vince Lombardi.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: Bill Benson's first wasn't some random assistant, right? He's the
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: architect of those great Packers defenses. He's respected and chosen
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: by Lombardi. But being the guy after the guy is
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: a different job, and Green Bay immediately falls back and
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: the dynasty is over. It doesn't help that all the
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: great players that Lombardi had had pretty much.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: It all goes together. Yeah, you know, they all start retiring.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: And so eventually Green Bay goes looking outside. They pursue
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: George Allen. They look at Joe Paterno. They wind up
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: hiring Dan Devine from Missouri in 1971, who gets them
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: back into the playoffs in 1972. They go 10-4, NFC
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Central champions. First division title since Lombardi.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: And then they lose to Washington in the playoffs, and
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: the whole thing starts coming apart. Little would Green Bay
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: know that they would make the playoffs the rest of
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: that decade. Devine eventually makes one of the great desperation
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: trades in NFL history in October of 74. John Hadle,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: 34-year-old quarterback, and back then being 34, might as well
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: have been 44. Green Bay sends the Rams five draft picks,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: fairly high draft picks, three picks from the next draft,
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: two more from the one after that really mortgaging the
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: future for John Hadle and linebacker Jim Carter gives it
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: the perfect nickname the Lawrence Welk trade because the idea
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: was it was a one and a two and a
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: one and a two and a three the little you
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: really got to go into the uh you got to
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: trust us folks Lawrence Welk was a pop culture reference
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: back in the day.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: So Hadle throws three touchdowns in seven games for Green
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Bay that year. That's what they got for all those
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: trades in the Lawrence Welk deal. And the picks that
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Green Bay give away make the next rebuild a lot harder.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Well, and Dan Devine has another place in American football culture.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: He leaves Green Bay to go coach Notre Dame. In fact,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: if you're a sports movie junkie, you will know, oh,
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: Dan Devine, he's the Notre Dame coach in the story
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: of Rudy.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Not exactly the hero of that story either.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: No, kind of the jerk in the story. The movie
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: makes Devine the obstacle that the coach who doesn't want
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: to let Rudy Rudiker dressing in the final game until
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: the players force his hand and threaten not to play.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: The historical story is a bit more complicated than the
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: movie because, you know, why screw up a good movie, right?
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Devine later said he had agreed to play Rudy and
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: that he allowed himself to be portrayed as the heavy
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: for dramatic purposes. But yes, Packers fans, it is that
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Dan Devine that did this. And by the way, he
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: gets to Notre Dame The way he gets to Notre
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: Dame is pretty amazing. He's publicly insisting. He's pulling a
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Nick Saban here. He publicly insisted he's staying in Green Bay. Meanwhile,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: he's talking to Notre Dame. The Packers finally negotiate his departure,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: and he and his lawyer leave the room, and Devine
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: reportedly pops his head back in to the press corps,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: who he told he's never leaving. He's staying at Green Bay,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: and he essentially says, oh, by the way, I'm going
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: to Notre Dame and literally drops the mic. Another, shall
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: we say, not so clean Packers goodbye.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: So then the Packers say hello and they make. probably
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: the most understandable mistake in the franchise history. It's Christmas Eve, 1974.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: Who can restore the Green Bay Packers? Who can they
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: turn to? Who embodies Lombardi football better than anyone? Bart Starr.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, man. See, now we're getting to the Packers of
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: my youth and the grumbling of my dad about Bart
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Starr because you weren't supposed to attack him. But look,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: this is where fandom is dangerous, right? Because look, we
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: all love Bart Starr. Packers fans love Bart Starr. By
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: the way, he was the He was on the offensive staff,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Dan Devine, for what it's worth. But even Bart Starr
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: later says the decision to hire him was based on
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: emotion rather than logic. I mean, that's what you got
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: to love about Bart Starr. I learned this over the
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: years reading stuff about him. He was very self-aware. You
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: got to give him that. He essentially, he didn't really
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: have a great coaching resume. He had never built a
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: personnel department. And Green Bay, they didn't just make him
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: the coach. They made him the coach and general manager.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: They're asking Bart Starr to become Vince Lombardi because Bart
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Starr played quarterback. for Vince Lombardi. Good luck. Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: And, you know, that's the thing. It's not just the coaching.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: It's the, you know, really about the personnel, you know,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: and we kind of alluded to early and we'll get
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: into a little bit. The personnel decisions are really everything.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, so Lombardi, as great as he
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: was as the coach, most of that team was set
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: up before he got there by Jack Benisi, right? You know,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: pretty much the talent was in place. It just wasn't
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: being used the right way. So, You got to have
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: the right personnel decisions, but also you can't fall into
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: the trap of, you know, hiring one of our own.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: You know, they later did it with Forrest Gregg, who
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: had at least had coached unlike Starr, right? And he
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: had coached the Cincinnati Bengals to the Super Bowl where
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: they lost to the 49ers. But, you know, he won 40%
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: of his games with Green Bay and just like Starr
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: won 40% of his games with Green Bay. So going
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: back to Lombardi era, and trying to recapture it and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: guys played for Lombardi. Um, we saw it didn't work
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: for guys who coached under Lombardi and guys who played
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: for Lombardi. That wasn't any better either.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Well, look as bad of a coach as star turned
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: out to be for the Packers. He was a worst GM.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, I remember when they only fired him from
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: one of the two jobs. And I remember my dad saying, well,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: at least it's, at least it's the GM job because
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, you want to talk about misses that the
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: Packers made, right? Uh, He thought about taking this kid
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: from Notre Dame at quarterback in 79. He thought about
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: taking him, and the defensive coaches were begging him for
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: defensive linemen, so Starr let that go, and Green Bay
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: took a pass on a quarterback that they could have drafted.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: His name was Joe Montana. Two years later, in 81,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Green Bay did take a quarterback. They took Rich Campbell,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: but you know one of the players that were available
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: there that they could have drafted instead of that quarterback,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: Rich Campbell, which you have to right now Google to
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: figure out who he was? Ronnie Lott. And again, to
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Starr's credit, he later admits, yeah, passing on Montana, that
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: was a big mistake. Campbell over Lott, he actually called
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: that one a colossal blunder.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: And maybe I'm pressing it, like any franchise, they've had
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: a miss, right?
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: Or several misses, right?
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: But I can't think of, you had the opportunity to
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: take the offensive player and the defensive player who were
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: at the core of a dynasty... You know, like we're
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: not talking about this. Well, you know, we'll probably do
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: a 49ers dynastic eventually.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: We will be talking about it and.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Have Montana and lot. It's that simple. And so the
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: fact that the fact that you could have had both
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: of those guys, like it's not too far fetched to
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: imagine that 49ers 80s dynasty could have very easily taken
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: place in Green Bay.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: So there's one moment that they have in the strike-shortened
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: 1982 season. Green Bay makes the expanded playoffs. They beat St.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: Louis 41-16. So important you say expanded playoffs.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: They did expand the playoffs. They wouldn't have made the
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: playoffs without that expanded playoff. Now it's the same amount
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: of teams they take now, but back then they basically
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: took two extra teams, I think, in each league.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was weird. You had the replacement players,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: all that stuff, right?
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: But it's the first Packers postseason win since the Lombardi era.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: And then Dallas beats them. And then next year, they
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: have a chance to make the playoffs again, but they
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: lose the finale to Chicago.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: The dreaded Bears in their 8-8.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Next day, the team president, Judge Robert Parris, walks into
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Bart Starr's office.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: And this is one of the coldest scenes, perhaps, in
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Packers history. After everything, Bart Starr has been to the franchise. Quarterback.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: five championships, two Super Bowl MVPs, head coach for nine years,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: 26 years associated with the Green Bay Packers. Perrins walks
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: in and says, essentially, Bart, you are relieved of your
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: duties as head coach. And he leaves. There's no long conversation.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: There's no thank you, nothing. Starr closes the door and
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: he breaks down.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: And it's going to be another version of this thing
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: that we We're going to keep seeing when it comes
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: to the Packers that the institution can be sentimental when
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: it hires you, but eventually it can be remarkably unsentimental
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: when it decides.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: But look, they kept, you know, one could argue the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: star lasted as long as he did because of who
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: he was. I mean, there was it was a there's
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: a quote from the movie Cocktail. I like to quote
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: everything ends badly or else it wouldn't end. I feel
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: like that when it came to Bart Starr's career with
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: the Packers, that that's what we're looking at. Look, this
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: is the Packers I grew up with. And I'll defend
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: those teams a little bit because they weren't that good,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: but they weren't boring. Growing up a Packers fan in
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: the late 70s and 80s was kind of a different
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: experience from growing up a Packers fan today. Packers made
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: the playoffs twice between Lombardi's last championship and the beginning
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: of the Favre era, which is just remarkable. 1972 and 1982.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: That was it. But we had some moments. Lynn Dickey, man,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: that dude could sling a football. James Lofton is a
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: Hall of Famer, and he had most of his career
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: at the Packers. At one point, their offense, you had
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: Eric Coriel of the Chargers. You had basically a version
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: of it with the Packers. Lynn Dickey, you had a
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: former Charger, John Jefferson. They had Jefferson, Lofton, Paul Kaufman.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: They could air it out. Um, and you know, one
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: thing about green Vegas, they were, they were entertaining team. Um,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: and in fact, my, my favorite memory of that team
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: was a Monday night football game because back then you
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: didn't see a lot of the Packers on TV, especially
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: if you were a kid in Miami. So the only
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: time you saw them is when they made it onto
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: Monday night football. And basically once a year, the Packers
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: would get on Monday night football, usually against the bears.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: This one, they're playing the defending champs, the Washington football team.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: It's October 17th, 83. And it, the reason I cared
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: about the Packers being a Monday night football, Jay, I'm, I'm,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: I'm 11 years old. What do you think it meant?
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: I get to stay up past my bed. It's the Packers. Well,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: this is an amazing game. It's still to this day
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: considered one of the greatest games in Monday night football history.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: It was a 48, 47 game. Dickie throws for nearly
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: 400 yards. Theismann also throws for over 400 yards. The
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Packers win by a point 48, 47. That Washington team
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: went 14 and two and only one of their two
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: losses in was that one. But here's the problem. I
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: cannot tell you a single player that played on defense
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: for those Packers teams in the eighties. I think there's
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: a reason because they had to, they had, they had
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: outrun and out throw and out do everybody. But it was,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: it was, I always said I earned my Packer fandom
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: having to stay being a fan. Even during the Dan
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: Marino era of Miami, I'd sit there and say, yeah,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: but Lynn Dickey threw for just as many yards as Marino.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Come on now.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tough one to put up against Marino.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: But I'm glad you had your moment at least because
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: there weren't a lot more to come in the next
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: few years. Again, we had the Forrest Gregg era that
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: was losing records. I think at best was a 500
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: record one year. And the Bears rivalry gets nasty.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: It was kind of embarrassing. This is a horrible moment.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: This is one of the warts, I think.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Charles Martin picks up Jim McMahon, the Bears quarterback,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: slams him to the turf after the whistle. Effectively ends
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: McMahon's season, if not career.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: Arguably, it may have ended his career. That's what's so
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: ugly about it.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: He gets suspended. You know, Ditka earns the IRS. He's
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: calling the Packers thugs for a year. I mean, the
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: asterisk might have been the kindest, the gentlest thing they've
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: said about them. And then those drafts.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Well, then there's like, you know, we talked about all
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: these bad misses with Starr. There's the greatest screwed up
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: draft pick ever as far as Packers fans of my
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: age will tell you it was 89. They have the
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: number two pick. Like the Packers rarely have a super
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: high pick like that. Number two pick. And they take
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: an offensive lineman who in defense of them at the
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: time was considered the greatest offensive line prospect ever.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: Cover of Sports Illustrated, the incredible ball. That's right, Tony Mandarich.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: And, you know, they took Tony Mandarich over in this draft,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: who was drafted in the top 10. They select him
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: over Barry Sanders, Derek Thomas, and Deion Sanders, right? That's
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: who else went in this first draft.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Take any Sanders, take a Sanders, any Sanders. And you
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: took this, you know, as it turned out, steroid, you know, juice.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: Well, that was the thing that he turns out to
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: be the poster child to me of the, of sort
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: of the, even though the steroid era really has its
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: reckoning in baseball, uh, what's interesting to me is that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: it was then, and I, boy, I want to say
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: it wasn't too long after that, that you had a
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: couple of guys who was the old Cleveland Brown line
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: and Oakland Raider, Lala Zato, where a lot of people
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: think he died due to complications of too much use
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: of steroids. And it felt in some ways I've always seen,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: and I'm, I'm not, I don't want to presume others
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: see it this way. I've always looked at the Mandarich
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: debacle of a draft pick as sort of the, Oh,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: that's when steroids was clouding a lot of our judgment. Right.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: You know, difference was it wasn't affecting these, you know,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: cherished records like it was in baseball.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: Right. But 89, it gave us, yeah, we got the
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: magic man, Don Makowski, who gave the Packers one 10
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: and six season. They missed the playoffs due to a tiebreaker.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: What was amazing is that I remember Makowski was the
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: first Packers quarterback. He was, he had, he had had
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: a moment like, like the end of that season, he
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: was just, he was pulling games out of his, you know, what. And,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: and he was kind of like, Oh, think Doug Flutie
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: when he was, you know, running around, it was sort
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: of probably too small to be a, a long-term starting quarterback,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: but he, he was, he got enough attention that he,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: I remember finding, I still have this t-shirt of the
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: magic man that I bought. I think it was at
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: bird eyes, which is an old department store in Miami and,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that there was a Green Bay Packers
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: t-shirt being sold in Miami, but that is like, Makowski
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: had done just enough with the magic man nickname. It
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: was like, man, it was the first time I ever
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: thought the Packers had made it. Um, but it turned
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: out Makowski was kind of short lived. It was sort
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: of a, it was kind of a one hit wonder, J.A.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they really hadn't made it six and 10 in
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: 1994 and 12 in 1991. They, he was fun to
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: watch though, but, uh, you know, it wasn't very substantial. Um,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: But more important things had changed upstairs. Bob Harlan had
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: become the team president.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: And you could argue that this is the rebirth, the
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: sort of the third rebirth of the Packers right here.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: Bob Harlan, he's probably one of the most important people
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: now in this part of the story because he both
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: understands Packers history. He'd lived some of it. He had
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: been in the organization since the Dan Devine years. So
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: he'd been there since the early 70s. But he also
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: fully understands that the answer to Vince Lombardi is not
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: another Vince Lombardi. It's time to turn the page. The
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: Packers don't need another coach general manager savior either. They
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: need to build a modern football organization. And in November 91,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: Bob Harlan makes perhaps the best decision made in the
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: history of the Green Bay Packers. He hires a guy
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: named Ron Wolf and he gives them an actual football operation.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're getting into the, you know, the salary
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: cap era and the free agency era. So now it's
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: not about a force of personality like it was in
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: the Lombardi years, right? Like now it's really diligent management.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: You need an organization, and the Packers felt really behind.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: Curly Lambeau creates the Packers the first time, but there's
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: an argument that Bob Harlan and Ron Wolfe create the
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: modern Packers. And the Packers that I am a fan of,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: and some of you that are listening now are a
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: fan of today, This is the founder of today's Packers. Harlan,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: he got the governance part of this right. Wolfe understood
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: the football part, and Wolfe immediately fires Lindy Infante. He
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: hires Mike Holmgren, who is the offensive coordinator from the
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: offense that they'd like to emulate, the San Francisco 49ers,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: who back then, they were setting essentially, you know, the
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Niners are the 80s dynasty, and how they run offense,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: everybody's trying to emulate that offense. So in February of 92,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: they also make a trade, Ron Wolfe does, that at
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: the time seemed pretty aggressive. Green Bay decides to send
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: a first-round pick to the Atlanta Falcons for its backup quarterback.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: It was a kid who had only thrown four NFL passes.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: Two of them had been intercepted. One of those interceptions
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: had been returned for a touchdown. And he was a
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: kid that had played football, not at a major college,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: but at a school at Hattiesburg, Mississippi, called Southern Mississippi.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Brett Favre.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: Who didn't even start the season as a starter, right?
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: The guy, the magic man is still the starter.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: Still the starter, but he gets hurt in week three,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: Cincinnati magic, magic man gets hurt. Favre comes in and
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: of course, you know, first, first time quarterback, it's not pretty.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: He fumbles. There's some bad decisions in some ways. If you,
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: if you've watched Brett Favre, even that first game is
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: kind of Favrean, if you will.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: We all know that rollercoaster, right? But late in the game,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: Green Bay needs a touchdown. Favre drives him, 13 seconds left,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: 35 yards. Kittrick Taylor for a touchdown, and the Packers
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: win 24-23. The next week, against Pittsburgh, Brett Favre makes
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: his first NFL start. Green Bay wins, and from there,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: he does not miss another start in the rest of
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: his Green Bay Packer career. 253 consecutive regular season starts.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: leads to him, I think, in what became a little
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: bit overblown. Some magazine called him the toughest athlete in
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: pro sports. But you've got to be pretty tough to
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: make 253 straight starts.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: No, you do. Look, I think Peyton Manning had quite
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: a few, and Eli Manning also did pretty well on
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: that consecutive start. Look, and while Wolfe and Holmgren are
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: fixing what was the problem with the on-field product, Harlan
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: makes another decision that I think is symbolically enormous. Remember,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: since 1933, Green Bay has been playing part of their
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: home schedule in Milwaukee. And at the time, it was
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit of, you know, after pressure from the
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: NFL to have bigger, you know, a bigger stadium, more
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: more seats, et cetera. And Milwaukee did help save the
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: franchise for a time. Milwaukee gave it that second market.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: So to prevent the NFL from sort of getting rid
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: of it. And after the 94 season, Harlan decides to
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: end it. And he decides all home games are going
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: back to Green Bay. And it's Green Bay saying, you
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: know what, we don't need to pretend that to be
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: a bigger market anymore. Instead, let's embrace being the Green
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: Bay Packers and let's create a destination and let's create
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: a Mecca. And in many ways, the idea that everybody
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: wants to make a trek to Lambeau, well, the reason
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: that's a thing, it was this decision to get rid
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: of the Milwaukee series, arguably, that begins that.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also, you know, some 30 years now of
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: this NFL national TV rights revenue sharing plan. And so
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: the diminishment of the gate as being an important part
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: of revenue.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: Receipts are almost minuscule at this point. Yeah.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: And compare the TV, you know, the TV money is
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: so big by the eighties and nineties, you know, still
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: nothing compared to what it is today, but, you know, huge,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: huge amounts of salaries are going up. So there's all
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: that it, you know, we'll get into the changes to
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: Lambeau in a little bit, but, You know, the Packers
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: in Green Bay was a destination. The one moment that
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: proves it is 1993. You know, we've got new NFL
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: free agency moves. It truly is free agency now. It's
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: not as limited in that plan B free agency that
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: they used.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: To have before.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: And one of the men at the center of the
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: fight to create it is also one of the biggest players.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: You'd be fighting, too, if you could have this much
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: money at stake for you. And that's Reggie White, the
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: minister of defense, the Philadelphia Eagles. fearsome defensive lineman, teams
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: across the league want him. And, you know, how is
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: Green Bay going to attract this African-American man to come
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: to Green Bay, Wisconsin?
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, it was an open question. There's a
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: temptation to tell this story as, oh, there's a Jeep,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: there's a Red Lobster and all that stuff. And that's
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: a great story. Other teams are doing elaborate recruiting for
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: a coat for Reggie's wife, you know, celebrity treatment. Green
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: Bay picks up Reggie White in a Jeep Wrangler and
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: takes him to their best restaurant, which is a Red Lobster.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: Ron Wolfe basically, though, is saying, look, we're not going
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: to pretend we're something we're not. This is who we are.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: Let's be clear. They also pay him. They also offer
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: him more money than everybody else does. It's not like
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: he came to Green Bay on a discount.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like between four years, $ 17 million.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: Pretty good deal. Yeah, for a defensive lineman. As Tony
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: Kornheiser likes to say, the answer to many questions in
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: professional sports remains money. But still, the significance, the bigger
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: deal is that Green Bay is willing to pay money
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: like that. It's not just that Reggie White says yes.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: And play there. Right. It's not just that Reggie White
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: says yes. The history of the Packers had been, they're
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: never going to be that team because they were community
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: owned and they couldn't have that. And this mindset change, no.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: We're going to go after the biggest stars. And that
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: was a mindset change that, again, has paid dividends to
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: this day.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, now they're a legit destination. They're in play for
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: big-time free agents. Because if Reggie White can choose it,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: why can't I?
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: Right. I mean, it's no longer Siberia or one of my...
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: You remember the great sports writer Pete Axel for Newsweek?
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: You know, we were... My dad... We were Newsweek subscribers
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: because he loved George Will. But Newsweek always had this
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: sports page, literally a page in it. And it was
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: always Pete Axel. And I remember being really excited. He
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: was going to write about the Packers. But what he
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: wrote about was the Packers playing the Buccaneers. And he
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: called it the Bay of Pigs, Tampa Bay at the time.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: And those, you know, wasn't very good in the 80s.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: Green Bay in the 80s wasn't very good. And You know,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: so whether it was football Siberia to Paul Hornig or
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: what Pete Axel once called the Bay of Pigs. After
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: the Reggie White signing, you weren't going to see phrases
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: like that anymore.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: But now we're in the 90s and things are changing.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: And Brett Favre is becoming the face of the league, right? 1995,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: he wins the MVP. 1996, he wins the MVP again. 1997,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: he wins it again. The only player to win three
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: straight NFL MVPs.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. That's a little bit surprising, you know. when
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: you think about the history of the NFL.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: You know, you think, you know, Bradshaw when the Steelers
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: were dominating, Montana never did it.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Johnny U. Right. So many.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: You know, but the 96 season ultimately ends in a championship,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: but it starts with a dark moment and, and far,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure your buddy, Peter King broke the story, right.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: That he had an addiction to painkillers.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I'm sorry you saw him playing so
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: recklessly and everybody like, wow, he pops back up. Well,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: there might have been a reason and it's worth stopping
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: on because the Favre mythology can sometimes flatten to this.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: He's the indestructible gunslinger. He played her, never missed a game,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: took a hit, got up. But part of the cost
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: of that was the pills. And in 96, Favre enters treatment.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: The NFL announces that he's been abusing Vicodin and he
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: does spend time in rehab. He comes back. And then
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: he arguably has the best season of his career. I
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: think there were a lot of people worried that he wouldn't,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: but perhaps getting rid of the cloud of Vicodin actually
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: made him even better.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you wonder if he's playing and seen with clarity
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: now for the first time in a long time. But
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: Green Bay goes 13-3, best record in the NFC. They
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: beat San Francisco. They beat Carolina at Lambeau. And he
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: goes to the Super Bowl for the first time since Lombardi.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: They beat New England in Super Bowl XXXI. Throws through TD, passes,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: runs for another. But the MVP is Desmond Howard, who
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: had 244 return yards, had the 99-yard kickoff return. Does
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: the robot.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: He won the game. But that kickoff return, New England
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: had just scored a touchdown. It was becoming a game,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: and it was like he ended it. He did the robot. Yeah, well,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: that mattered too.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl first. So the Packers win 35-21. First championship
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: again since Lombardi won. days 29 years earlier look this is.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Where the generations finally reconnected right you know the Packers
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: I had read about as a kid star Kramer Lombardi
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: those Packers suddenly belong to the same franchise that I
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: was watching when win a Super Bowl for the first
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: time first time a team I rooted for when a
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: Super Bowl it man it was an enormous moment that
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: first one if you grew up realizing David Whitehurst was
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: your starting quarterback sorry David loved you, man. You were
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: a good punter, all those things. But it was, we
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: went through, it's amazing that the Packers still have all
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: these records, all time records for playoff appearances and all
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: that stuff. When they went literally from, from 1970 to
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: 1993 and only went to the playoffs twice in over
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: a 20 year span. It, and you know, I just
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: happened to be born in that period. And here we are.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: One little, the Raiders or.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: The Rams or, right. You know, the Cardinals, all those teams,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: you know, that have been around, they hadn't moved. You know,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: they hadn't even changed stadiums. I mean, they ditched Milwaukee,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: but they're still in Lambeau Field. So there is that connection. Yes,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: it's a renaissance, but it's also there's a sense of
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: continuity there because they've been in the same place in
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: the same stadium for all those years. And so it
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: was the return of the Packers and no qualifications needed.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: No, and it sort of converges with, you know, it's
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: funny in 96, right? And the Packers are a hot
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: team again in 96, Bill Clinton is in Wisconsin running
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: for reelection and he gets a chance. It was the
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: first time he's here's president Clinton gets to walk into
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: an empty Lambeau field. And according to Bob Harlan, he's,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: you know, he gets to, he was the one giving
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: the president of the Packers is giving a tour to
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: the president of the United States. And he said that
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: the president that Clinton turns to him, like he's a
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: little kid. And he says, I never thought I'd get
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: a chance to see this place. And his eyes are wide.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: And he, it's almost like Harlan. It was almost like
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: a light bulb went off and it, that's what Lambeau
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: was becoming right. It had started to, it didn't have
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: this mythic. Yeah. It didn't have this mythic feel to
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: it yet that it was just a, you know, and
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden it dawns on people that no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: Lambeau is different, right? There's a lot of football stadiums
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: around the country, but Lambeau is different. People will want
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: to make a pilgrimage to it and Harlan gets it.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: And this is the other part of what makes Harlan
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: so important. Ron Wolf has fixed the football operation, but
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: Harlan is thinking about the economic operation. Green Bay is
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: never going to become Chicago or Dallas. And you're not
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: going to wake up one morning and discover six million
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: people living in Green Bay. So instead of trying to
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: make Green Bay less Green Bay, double down on it. Right. Yeah.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: And, you know, it's kind of cool because that that
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: version of Lambeau that Bill Clinton saw in the 90s
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: is the same one that I saw my first time
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: in Lambeau in ninety nine. And it still looked like
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: when you saw the footage of the ice bowl, because
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: it still was basically just a bowl, like a college
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: stadium was, you know, and that was it. There was
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: like a side with like a press box. And that
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: was pretty much it in terms of attachments to the stadium. Otherwise,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: it was just rows and rows of seats, you know.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: But they did care. Yeah, and they did care about
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: keeping the homage to that, what you just described, right? So,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: because they don't tear Lambeau down. And they don't, you know,
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: they could have torn it down and just built some
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: generic stadium, but they didn't. They renovate it. They expand it.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: They put the Packers Hall of Fame there, which is
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: just a tremendous Hall of Fame. They build this beautiful atrium.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: The pro shop becomes a huge business. Eventually the whole area,
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: they actually, you know, it was nicknamed title town. Well,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: they created a title town to visit. There's hotels, there's restaurants.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: It's a public space. It's now football tourism. It's a destination.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: You know, when I get there two decades later, we're
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: doing exactly what Harlan envisioned. We spent a 48-hour period there.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: We got there early. We went to the Hall of Fame.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: We went and had great lunch in all of this area.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: We just sort of, we were making a pilgrimage. And
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: it was a destination.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: And, you know, it really capitalized on the fact that
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: it's right there in the city, you know, like we'd
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: had decades, you know, starting from the fifties and sixties
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: as the suburbanization movement happens and stadiums just become these
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: things out in the suburbs surrounded by a parking lot, right.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: Designed to drive out there, park and go to the game. And,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: you know, people started to realize, Hey, what if we
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: make it something where there are a multitude, if there's
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: a movie theater there and there's things to do when
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: the team isn't playing, if it's not a Sunday, right. And,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: you know, but, Green Bay had a head start because
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: it's in the town. It's not a major metropolis, but there's,
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: you know, you can tailgate in your front yard and
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: then go to the game or you can have park
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: in somebody's yard, you know, and you can make a
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: little revenue if you live nearby.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, what do they say about, you know, the
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: mother of all invention is necessity, right? I don't want
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: to claim that Green Bay somehow invented this entire concept
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: without doing more homework on this, but Green Bay certainly
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: had a special economic incentive to figure this idea out early.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: Because the Packers, they couldn't monetize their population. They couldn't
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: even monetize being the Packers. So they sort of create
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: a field of dreams type of scenario. If you build it,
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: people will start to come to Green Bay just for that.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: And sure enough, they kind of have pulled that off.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to make a very unbiased view here.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: I think we ought to scrap Canton and move that
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: entire operation to Green Bay. Because at the end of
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: the day, And J.A., maybe I can talk you into this.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, I know I'm biased
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: about this, but shouldn't the NFL's Hall of Fame, and
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: I know Canton's not technically the NFL Hall of Fame,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame, shouldn't it be
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: in Green Bay? Or shouldn't it be at least in
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: one of the founding cities of the NFL that actually
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: still has a team? Disclose your bias.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, the reason it's in Canton is because that's
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: the birthplace of professional football. And it's the Pro Football
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: Hall of Fame. You know, shout out to Pudge Heffelfinger,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: the first pro football player. I don't know why that
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: name sticks in my head, but no, it shouldn't. Well,
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: I'll make the case this, you know, again, it's not
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: too far. It's about two hours from from Chicago. It's
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: easier to get to Chicago than it is to Cleveland
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: and Canton. So, you know, Chicago, drive up to Green Bay,
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: you know, see Lambeau Field. You know, you could play
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame game in Lambeau. That'd be kind
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: of cool. That'd make it even more special. Um, I
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: like that they're doing those college games. We had that
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: college kickoff game this year, Notre Dame and Wisconsin.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, I like the outdoor NHL game that they had
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: at Lambeau a few years back. Yeah.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: So, you know, a really, a really cool venue. Um,
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: but you know, it doesn't matter if you're not going
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: to be first and foremost, you got to play playoff
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: games there.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the important thing. And you know, the
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: most famous maybe NFL game ever there was a playoff
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: game or is that the NFL championship game? You know,
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: so as this stuff is going on, as they're figuring
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: out ways to monetize Lambeau, they're getting on the right
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: track on the field, too. They have a 13 and
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: three season back to the Super Bowl. This time they
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: played Denver. That was the first Super Bowl I covered
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl 32, January 1998. Green Bay is favored, but
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: then Terrell Davis runs for 157 yards and three touchdowns,
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: the last running back to win Super Bowl MVP for
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: Kenneth Walker this year in Super Bowl 60. The helicopter
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: play with John Elway.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: Pat Bolin, this is for John. You know, Denver wins
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: 31 to 24.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm shaking my head because this. Go ahead.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: It felt like Green Bay was going to be around.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: You know, it didn't feel like, OK, this was it.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Like Barb never made it after.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: That, right? No, he didn't. And this is the beginning
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: of another little mini Packers theme here that we're going
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: to have to, that I have to confront and we
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: fans confront. How many championships did this franchise leave on
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: the table once it finally solved the quarterback system, right?
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, because the 96 Packers felt like the beginning
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: of something. Bob Harlem himself later said he thought that
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: the team could have won two, maybe three Super Bowls.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: They got two appearances. They win one and they never
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: get back with Favre. I mean, I mean, how.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: Many critical interceptions did he throw at the wrong time?
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: The last pass he throws as a Packer is an
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: interception in the NFC title game. In that game that
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: we said was one of the coldest ever. How is
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: it that the Packers can't win one of the championship
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: games that's the coldest of all time?
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: When Favre had a sterling record at the time, right? Remember,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: Favre had a sterling record of cold weather games, right?
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: You know, like he was like almost unbeatable, which is
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: amazing from a guy from Mississippi. But he became this
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: great cold weather quarterback. You have another loss. They lose
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: to Eli in a snowy game at Lambeau.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: And it's funny because I remember specifically researching. We saw
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: the weather forecast and I researched. I specifically picked the
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: Packers because Eli had a terrible weather, terrible cold weather,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: you know, sub-freezing record in cold games.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: And they go into Lambeau and win that game. Once
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: the championship was involved, Eli became unbeatable, apparently.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: So after that 98 season that wound up and another
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: important Packer figure decides he wants something Green Bay isn't
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: prepared to give him. That's Mike Holmgren, who'd taken the Packers'
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: six straight playoff appearances, two Super Bowls.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: He'd won one.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: But Holmgren wants more than the head coaching job. He
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: wants control over player personnel. And he wants to coach
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: plus executive title and role that Lombardi won't say.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: Well, and once again, here we go. Pattern gets more
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: interesting because green Bay has already lived through the dangers
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: of giving one person, everything Lombardi could handle it. Bart
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: star couldn't Mike Sherman will eventually get a version of
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: it and they'll decide that was too much as well,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: but Holmgren wants it and Seattle offered it. And so
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: Holmgren leaves for the Seahawks.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: And he takes a bunch of, uh, valuable brain trust
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: with them. Andy Reed, Mike Reinfeld, Ted Thompson, they're all gone.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: And there's another goodbye, not nasty, like Lambeau, not yet
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: far of level, ugly, but familiar, a great Packers figure
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: wants more institutional control or a piece of the action.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: And green Bay says, Hey, we're not giving you that. Yeah.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: Homegrown theme here. Yep. Recurring theme and homegrown leaves. And
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: this begins one of the strangest things about modern Packers history.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: From the moment Brett Favre becomes the starter, Green Bay
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: changes head coaches more than it changes franchise quarterbacks. Think
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: about it. Holmgren leaves. Ray Rhodes lasts one year. Mike
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: Sherman comes in. Eventually, Sherman becomes coach and general manager.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: Then Green Bay decides, once again, that's too much power
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: concentrated in the coach. And Bob Harlan makes one of
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: his last enormous decisions. He hires a guy named Ted
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: Thompson to run football operations in 2005.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: But it's kind of awkward because Mike Sherman's still the
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: head coach, but he's no longer the general manager. Now
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: Ted Thompson is. Thompson's first draft is about to change
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: the next 20 years of Packers history.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing that we're telling you a date that
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: matters so much and it had nothing to do with
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: a football game. It's April 23rd, 2005. Young Aaron Rodgers
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: thinks he might be the number one overall pick in
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: the NFL draft. He's a kid from Northern California. After all,
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: he played at Cal. And guess who has the number
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: one pick? the San Francisco 49ers. Rodgers has had an
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: extraordinary pro day too. And the choice is basically, is
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: it going to be Alex Smith from Utah or Aaron
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: Rodgers from Cal? Well, San Francisco chooses Smith. And then
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: the camera, of course, this is the beginning of one
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: of those, you know, we'd had a version of this
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: with what happened to Warren Sapp. That was about a
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: decade earlier when he fell and it became a bit
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: of a televised story because of the way ESPN was
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: covering the draft. Well, that's what happened here with Aaron Rodgers.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: He doesn't become the first pick or the second pick
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: or third, right? Yeah.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: Because Miami passed, Cleveland passed, Chicago passed, Tampa passed. It
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: actually reminds me of the pre-televised, you know, primetime draft
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: there of what happened to Dan Marino, right?
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, goes in a similar spot. So Rodgers winds up
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: sitting in that green room for hours. It's just one
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: long day. It's not the three-night, you know, TV festival
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: of the day. So everyone watching ESPN is seeing this
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: discomfort in real time.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: And here's the thing about Green Bay. They don't need
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: a quarterback. Yeah, Favre is 35, but he's Brett Favre, right?
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: He started every game since 92. And you're at this
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: point thinking, what is it going to take? You want
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: to extend Favre's career another year or two. So they're
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: obviously going to draft somebody to help Favre in the moment, right?
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: Ted Thompson is running his first draft as Packers GM.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: And some coaches don't want to spend the first round
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: pick on a quarterback who's going to sit.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: Why would you do that? So Thompson looks at the
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: board and thinks about one of the great draft mistakes
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: in sports history. And you're going to love this. I
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: know you love this anecdote, Jay. The one of the
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: great draft mistakes of all time is when the Portland
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: Trailblazers decide, well, they needed a big man and Sam
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Bowie is there and they decide to draft Sam Bowie
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: instead of Michael Jordan. And his basic conclusion is, I
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: don't want to be that guy. So Rogers is still
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: there at twenty four. Thompson had not planned on drafting
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: a quarterback and he calls Bob Harlan. And this exchange
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: is important to our ownership story. Cause he asked, Hey,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: if Rogers is there, I've got to take them. Are
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: you okay with this? Harlan says, yes. And green Bay drafts,
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rogers.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: And this is where I give, you know, we talked
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: about the institution of the Packers and this is where
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: you have to give them a lot of credit because yes,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: they've had, you know, this rare opportunity, back-to-back Hall of
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: Fame quarterbacks, back-to-back MVP quarterbacks. But it's not like either
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: one was an obvious choice, right? It's not like they
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: had the number one overall pick and chose these guys.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: They trade for Bedford, who hadn't done anything in Atlanta yet.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, they get, they take advantage of
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: the other people's, but clearly they saw something that all
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: these other teams whipped on and they take Aaron Rodgers,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: you know, and they had the foresight to do that.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: They didn't have to do that. So, you know, I
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: give them credit. This is one of the reasons that you,
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: you know, successful teams are successful institutions, you know, and, and,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: you know, we focus on the institution of the green
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: Bay Packers, the unique institution, but you know.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: They're really good at what they did.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, their fans didn't think so at the time they
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: couldn't see that because at the draft party in Lambeau,
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: there's booze.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, and that rattled, especially this is Ted Thompson's first draft.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: But of course I look as a fan, you understand,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: you're like, what are you doing? Favre only has a
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: year or two left. Use the pick to help him.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: It is fan logic. Look, the same thing just happened
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: with the Rams this year. Wait a minute. You've got
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: a year or two left to Stafford. You're wasting a
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: first-round pick on a quarterback that's going to sit on
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: the bench. Yes, the Rams did that because of the
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: model the Packers set. So, you know, it's something I've
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: thought of about this is if the Packers had a
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: conventional owner who was a bit more narcissistic, right? Most
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: owners are. I don't mean that. They're human beings, human beings,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and they're a little more susceptible to that stuff.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: If they're not an institution where, you know, where they
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: feel like, no, it's my team, but instead, and if
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: their Packers have a regular owner, not a president or
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: a board, but an owner, a Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft,
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: someone whose personal identity is tied to the superstar quarterback
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: and who enjoys all the benefits of being associated with
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: a celebrity like Brett Favre, does that owner approve a
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: first-round pick on Favre's replacement, right? I don't think so.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, you think of the difference that a bad
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: owner can make. Like, think of Cleveland and their owner, Haslam,
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: insists on the Sean Watson.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, right.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: Giving him the biggest contract in NFL history at the time.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: And that sets this franchise back, you know, years, if
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: not decades.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: But guess what? There is no owner of the Packers.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: And Thompson's job is to think about Green Bay as
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: an institution. And about life after Brett Favre, you can't,
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: this gravy train can't stop. Green Bay can't afford time
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: to rebuild, to be honest, or at least that's the mindset.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: And everybody has to start thinking about what does Green
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: Bay look like after Brett Favre? Neither one owns the Packers.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: They know they're stewards and they're going to be judged
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: more on that than anything else. And they draft Aaron Rodgers.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody, well, they didn't have an owner
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: to run it by. but they did have a franchise
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: quarterback that might yeah.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: He didn't like that but.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: Which they didn't because yeah he wasn't too high on
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: this selection and he basically says my contract doesn't say
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: I have to get Aaron Rodgers ready to play so
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: he doesn't and it's harsh but also you know.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: Not entirely irrational I mean, you know, look at it.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: It's a, nobody does tell you, you know, that is
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: not the job he signed up for. Some guys do,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: but he didn't sign up for that job.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: And so clearly the Packers had just drafted as replacement. Um,
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: it's a guy who actually grew up admiring farm. You know,
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: he'd worn number four before in his career because of fire.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: And now he's standing behind him. And, uh, Favre doesn't
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: want to go anywhere, though, and he's still playing great.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: So Rodgers waits and he waits in 2006 and he
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: waits in 2007. Three years of waiting for one of
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: the all-time great quarterbacks. Then on November 29, 2007, we're
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: in Dallas. The Packers are 10-1. Cowboys are 10-1. Favre
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: gets hurt. Green Bay's down 27-10. You know, the indestructible
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: Favre has gone out. Rodgers comes in for the first time.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: You get a.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: Glimpse of why they took him. 18 for 26, 201 yards.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: Moves the ball down the field, looks comfortable. They still
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: lose 37-27, but inside the organization, they got, okay, we
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: got something here. No, no.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: And it becomes pretty important a few months later because
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: Brett Favre is about to sort of Michael Jordan retire,
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: as we know. I mean, you know, he's contemplating retirement,
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: but of course. Dr. Clemens retired. Yeah, exactly. And then,
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: you know, he's about to decide, well, maybe he didn't.
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: mean it, and here we are.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: Alright, so March 4th, 2008. Brett Favre retires. It's an
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: emotional press conference. He's exhausted, says he has nothing left
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: to give, and it's Aaron Rodgers' time. Green Bay is
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: ready to turn the offense over to him, and the
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: summer arrives. Favre starts thinking, maybe I do want to play.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: This is where the sentimental story starts to become a
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: crisis of governance.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: And here we go, because if Brett Favre says, I've
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: changed my mind, I'm back, The easy decision is welcome back, Brett.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: He's the most beloved player in modern Packers history. Fans
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: love him. Three MVPs, Super Bowl, 16 years, you know,
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: never missing a start. Look, he is the franchise. The
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: number fours are all over. But Green Bay's already told
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers, hey, man, you're the quarterback. You're our guy.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: We're going forward.
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: And Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy don't want to go
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: back on that. Mark Murphy's now the team president. So
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: they're looking at alternatives. Tampa Bay. A huge marketing agreement
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: that might keep Barb retired. You know, ambassador role. Nothing works.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: Barb shows up to camp, reports, and eventually Green Bay
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: trades him to the New York Jets in August of 2008.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: Again, the only way the Jets get into dynastic once again.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: Let's just say we're not done with them, right? No,
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: we're not. People are furious. Yeah. Ted Thompson takes enormous abuse.
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers gets booed. There's a whole bring back Brett
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: Favre rally outside of Lambeau. And this is a moment
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: when the Packers make one of the most important institutional
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: bets in modern history. They are willing to be hated
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: right now because they think Aaron Rodgers is what comes next.
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: And again, I come back to the owner. I don't
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: know how this plays out if one person owns the team.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's exactly the same and maybe not. Robert, I mean,
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: we saw a version of this between Kraft and Belichick
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: and Brady, right? Kraft, He ended up always being sort
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: of the protector of Brady. It's no doubt Belichick would
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: have moved on sooner, but crap, right? Belichick probably loved
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: what the Packers did and wanted to do what they did,
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: but there was an owner. Jerry Jones has spent decades.
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: So look, I've always believed had there been an owner,
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: the Favre story goes differently. The Rogers story goes differently.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it goes better. It might get
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: a lot worse, but it is something about that because
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: of the structure of the Packers in some ways, it's
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: the only reason why they've had three starting quarterbacks since
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: 1993 and five head coaches.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: We could argue that, you know, an owner might feel
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: really old, you know, you know, there's a focal point
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: for the wrath of the fans, but you know, we've
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: learned with the Packers and the Green Bay residents that
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: they'll hung a president in effigy. Right. So they'll just
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: look at the first actual name they can find on
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: the organizational flow chart and go after him. So, It's
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: not as if there's no one to take the heat,
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: but there is someone who would have an outsized influence
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: if there's an owner, right? And so his individual feelings
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: would have more of an impact than in case of
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: the current setup of the package.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: But what I would say is, hey, Brett Favre, can
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: I tell you the story of Curly Lambeau? Right? Once again,
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: when you're done, you're done. And the Packers will always
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: put the Packers before a player or an individual.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the institution comes over, you know, even the beloved individual.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And now we get A-Rod.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 2: So in Rodgers' first year as a starter, they go 6-10,
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: but he throws for more than 4,000 yards, throws 28 TDs.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: Record doesn't show it yet, but the quarterback does, right? 2009,
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: another 4,000-yard season.
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: They make the playoffs.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: Ball card loss to Arizona, then 2010. Green Bay is
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: battered by injuries. 15 players end up on injured reserve.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: They start running back. Ryan Grant is lost almost immediately.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: They finish 10-6.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: The sixth seed, and then everything clicks.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia, 21-16.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: Atlanta, and this is Rodgers' masterpiece, 31-36. 366 yards, three
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: passing touchdowns. Another rushing touchdown. Green Bay wins 48-21.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: Every single game was on the road. No games at Lambeau, right?
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: One of the best quarterback playoff performances any of us
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: have seen. And then Chicago is the championship game in Chicago.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: And the Packers win 21-14. B.J. Raji gets a pick six,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: which of course just... Big man pick six. Raji, I mean,
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 1: big man pick six, man. Big man scored touchdown. We
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: love that. Packers are back in the Super Bowl. And
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: the confidence the Packers had, it's so funny that, you know,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: here they were literally the last seed and they're having
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: to make this run. But Mike McCarthy is so confident
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: that the Packers are going to win the Super Bowl
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: that he does something the night before Super Bowl 45
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: that you gotta, that I guess would have become one
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: of the, you know, had they lost, it had been
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: considered one of the worst decisions ever. But he got
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: the players fitted for the championship rings before they'd won anything.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: It's not that the rings have already been engraved and
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: handed out, but he wanted to send the message, right?
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: Which was, look, we're going to win this thing. And
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: I'm so confident in you guys doing everything you're supposed
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: to do that I know we can do these measurements
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing to plan the parade. A
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: lot of times people make a big, oh, they're already
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: planning the parade. I mean, think of all the logistical
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: challenges it takes to have a parade down a big city,
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: maybe not as big a city in Green Bay, but
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: you still, you know, you need road closures and all
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: kinds of other stuff.
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: You got to procure. Sure, you have to do some planning.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't mind when people plan for the parade
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: before the championship, but sizing the rings before a championship,
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: that's something that can wait, right? You've got the whole
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: off season to get the rings made. There's no reason
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: to rush out and size the ring. So that's pretty audacious. But,
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: you know, they play Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl. It's
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: at Jerry World. Rodgers throws for 304 yards, three touchdowns,
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: no interceptions. Green Bay leads 21-3. Pittsburgh comes back. Charles
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: Woodson breaks his collarbones, looking a little shaky. And then
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: fourth quarter, Rodgers makes the throw. Third down, 31 yards
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: to Greg Jennings, one of the great throws of his
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: career in the Packers' win. 31-25, Rodgers Super Bowl MVP,
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: Green Bay as championship number 13. The payoff, those uncomfortable
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: moments with Brett Favre and all that awkwardness, but you've
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: managed to do the near impossible, and that is to
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: have a transition from a Hall of Fame quarterback, Super
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: Bowl winning quarterback, to another Hall of Fame, Super Bowl
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: winning quarterback.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: Well, and Roger Goodell puts it quite well, right? The
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: smallest city in the league has won the biggest game.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: which frankly could be the title of the entire Packers story, right?
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: It is what it is. But hey, I will tell
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: you this. We are now getting to something that we
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: Packers fans don't particularly enjoy discussing. So Aaron Rodgers wins
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: the Super Bowl at age 27. Brett Favre won his
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: Super Bowl at age 27. At that moment, you would
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: have assumed, oh boy, there are more of these coming.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: And there aren't for either one. Think about the quarterback
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: stability Green Bay has had from the early 90s through
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: the end of the Rodgers era, roughly 30 years. Favre, Rodgers,
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: that's it. Not even getting to Jordan Love yet. Its
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: own plenty of playoff disappointments. Two inner circle Hall of
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: Fame level quarterbacks back to back, and the total return
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: is three Super Bowl appearances and two championships. Now, look,
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: if I'm the Buffalo Bills, I'm jealous. But Green Bay
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: is not Buffalo. Sorry, Buffalo.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 2: And I think it speaks to the reasons that For
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: all their accomplishments, I can't have either Favre or Rodgers
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: at the top, top tiers of quarterbacks, right? So with Favre, yeah,
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: three straight MVPs. But with him, I think it's kind
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: of easy to– plot line is that the thing that
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: makes him great is also his weakness, right?
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: That recklessness.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: You know, he can make something out of nothing or
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 2: he can take something promising and turn it into nothing
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: and a pick six going the other way, right? With Rodgers,
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 2: it's a little more nuanced because I think he's the
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: best passer, the best thrower of the football in that
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: I've ever seen. You know, we've talked about a couple
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 2: of his great passes already here. And, you know, we
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: can't probably do them.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: I'll make a confession here, Jay. I would, I used
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: to make the argument. I said, Rogers is better than Brady.
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: He just doesn't have Belichick. That used to be my argument.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: I said, if you put, I used to joke, I'd
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: push back. I'd say, you know, if Rogers were on
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: new England, he would, they wouldn't have lost two Superbowls.
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: And I don't, and then, no, Tom Brady beats Aaron
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: Rodgers in 2020.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: And not exactly the best version of Tom Brady either, right?
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: Not the best version of Brady. I mean, look.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 2: Chuck, that's one of four playoff losses at Lambeau for
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: Aaron Rodgers in nine games. He's five and four at
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 2: Lambeau in the playoffs, which to me is inexcusable.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: But what if I told you in 1992 that a
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: team is going to solve the most important position in
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: American sports for the next 30 years? but they're only
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: going to get two championships, you know, and look, we
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: can nitpick this whole thing to death. Did they have
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: enough people around Rogers? You know, there's a fact that
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: he never had a hall of fame wide receiver to
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: throw to. Is that, is that the reason, whatever it
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: is they got, but they got to the, they got
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: really close plenty of times, you know, can you really
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: blame not having enough players?
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: What separates Rogers from a Montana Brady Elway tier is,
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: to me it's the critical element for a quarterback and
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: that is poise. And, uh, you know, so, so there's some,
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: been some critical moments. You saw the fact that, that
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: Aaron Rodgers could lose to Jimmy Garoppolo when, when, you know,
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 2: the Niners were just trying to manage Garoppolo as many
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: as possible. And then, but then Rodgers would press and
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: he throws this like one really bad third down pass
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: when they, they still had a chance in that game,
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: losing to Brady, um, You know, and so one thing
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: I've noticed, so you mentioned that Rodgers has the best
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: touchdown to interception ratio in NFL history. It's 4.3, but
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs, it drops to 3.2 to one. So just,
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: you know, being at best is needed. The old effects
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: of the John Wooden pyramid of success. And Rodgers hasn't
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 2: demonstrated that enough.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 1: I tell you this, though, I think about it, you know,
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: it's like somehow Green Bay ends up having to play
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: the 49ers, the one year Kaepernick is unstoppable. I was
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: at the last football game at candlestick, which was a
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: playoff game where Kaepernick becomes Superman. There's the infamous 2014
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: Seattle game where somehow green Bay leads 19 to seven
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: with five minutes left, fake field goal onside, kick two
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: point conversion over time, Seattle wins. It's, you know, There
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: are like four or five of these losses, particularly in
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: the Rodgers era, but also far, right, where you sit
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: there and you're like, how the heck did this happen?
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: And then I know you wanted to bring up the
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: famous two Hail Mary game.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 2: Arizona 2015, Rodgers basically throws two Hail Marys on the
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: same drive. The second one ties the game, no time left.
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: Then Green Bay loses the coin toss, and that was
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: back before, you know, you'd have a chance to answer
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: the drive. Larry Fitzgerald's.
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: And game over.
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: So, you know, 2016, the Packers, you know, here's probably
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: Rodgers at maybe his best. Packers start off 4-6. Packers says,
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: I feel like we can run the table.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: Wasn't that the R-E-L-A-X? Yes. Relax, relax, yeah. Relax.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: Six straight, then two playoff wins, and then they just
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 2: get destroyed by Atlanta in the NFC Championship game. Maybe
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: they'd kind of exceeded and gone a little further than
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: when they were supposed to.
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that's the... That's the rationalization. Look, you're
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: like me. You're trying to rationalize why they can't get
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: the big one. Look, the mythology around Rogers is always
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: going to be complicated, even more so. But the individual brilliance,
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: as you said, his accuracy is unbelievable, right? I mean,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: some of the highlights, his highlight tape, you know, it's
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: going to be one of those 20 years from now.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: Somebody's going to, whatever YouTube is, whatever version of YouTube.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: No one ever threw the back shoulder fade better than him. No, unbelievable.
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: But let's be honest, every January, A Rodgers-led team seems
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: to find a new way to end and lose. And eventually,
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: the relationship with Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers deteriorates as well,
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: which then brings us back to a familiar Packers subject.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: How do you know when the legend has become too
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: powerful or when the institution has simply stopped working around
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: the legend? And on this one, they actually let the
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: superstar dictate the terms of the exit. Yeah, by 2018.
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing, too. One thing that was different
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 2: with this was he'd kind of been hinting at dissatisfaction
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: for a while now, right? Or retirement or, you know,
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: I need changes. You know, every year was something with
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 2: him to keep in the headlines. You know, and so
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: that's part of it, too. You're wondering how much the
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 2: Packers had grown tired of that, right? They're not working
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 2: too well anymore by 2018. It had been 13 years.
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: There'd been a lot of drama that comes.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: With Aaron Rodgers.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: Publicly questioning the offenses, you know, questioning personnel decisions, disagreements
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: about play calls, all sorts of things. And then after
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: December home loss to a bad Arizona team, Green Bay fires,
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: Mike McCarthy.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: And it happened to be on Aaron Rogers's 35th birthday.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was sort of a weird, I mean,
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: it's hilarious to me that Rogers is now back with
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: Mike McCarthy at the moment we're taping right now, uh,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: We're in the season where the where Rodgers is a
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: stealer and McCarthy is a stealer's head coach. But here
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: we are.
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: You know, but McCarthy says that's the one negative that
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 2: firing was one negative that he had in Green Bay.
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: But again, it's another uncomfortable ending with the Packers.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: Well, look, and I think it's fair to say Rodgers
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: had reached the point where he wanted to change. Right.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't you know, you don't want to reduce McCarthy's
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: firing to Aaron Rodgers fired Mike McCarthy. Mark Murphy made
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: the decision and the team was four, seven and one.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: Like there was clearly something wasn't working anymore. And the
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: quarterback coach relationship was completely broken. And here's, you know, again,
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: it's just hilarious that Rogers and McCarthy after that horrible
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: ending are somehow back together for the last seat, probably
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rogers last season.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: But one thing I learned in three years of covering sports,
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: no differences in sports are irreconcilable.
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: It's the phrase you hear in divorces, but in sports,
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: you've seen too many people patch things up and, you know,
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: for the for the better good. But, you know, meanwhile,
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: back in Green Bay 2019, they bring in Matt LaFleur.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: First year, go 13 and three, the NFC championship game.
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: They lose to San Francisco, who kind of have become
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 2: their nemesis. I think it's four straight victories.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, I would say this. I've always said, as in
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: my experience as a Packers fan, the Niners are a
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 1: bigger nemesis than the Bears.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because you're meeting them and losing to them
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: They're more meaningful losses, yes. They're big-time losses.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: Then Green Bay goes into the 2020 NFL Drafts. They
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: still have Aaron Rodgers as quarterback.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: And naturally... What would you do? You draft his replacement,
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: of course. And when do you do it? In the
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 1: first round, right? Why not? Look, the symmetry is almost
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: too perfect. 2005, Brett Favre is 35. Green Bay drafts
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers in the first round. 2020, Aaron Rodgers is
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: 36 because remember for his 35th birthday, he got the
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: firing of Mike McCarthy. Green Bay trades up and drafts
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: this quarterback out of Utah State that I'll be honest,
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't buy was a first round draft pick at
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: the time. Jordan Love in the first round. Of course,
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: they didn't tell Rodgers beforehand. Rodgers sees the pick, just
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: like you and I see the pick. And then he
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: texts a friend, literally, WTF. And he doesn't say WTF.
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to put this so that my future grandchildren
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: can listen. But WTF, which seems like, frankly, a reasonable
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: summary of his feelings.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: But there's an important difference between Rodgers and Favre here,
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 2: is that Rodgers, he's unhappy with the organization. but he
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't take it out on Jordan Love. He calls him,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: makes him clear, like, my problem is not with you.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: And by most accounts, Rodgers is much more helpful to
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: Love than Favre would have been to him.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: But by the way, you want to have a little
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: bit of fun? Listen to Brett Favre, snap counts on
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: NFL films. Listen to pre-snap calls. You listen to Aaron
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: Rodgers pre-snap calls, and you listen to Jordan Love, and
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: you realize they all three use the same number, all the,
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 1: you know, 152, whatever. Yeah. They've all Rogers emulated, literally
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: uses the same calls, the same sort of pre-snap calls
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: to sort of random number words and numbers that mean
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: nothing to anybody, but he does it out there to
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: screw the defense. But the point is whether they all
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: help each other or not, they literally one is emulated
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: the other to hear Brett Favre in 96 and Jordan
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: love in 2026, you would swear they're, they're singing from
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: the same song sheet there. So it's quite a bit
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: of symmetry, but, as you say, you know, Rogers, you know,
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: you would think that he decided he didn't want to
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: treat love the way he felt Favre treated him. So, um,
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: so anyway, but it's the, it's Green Bay, the institution, right?
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: They realized they have a hall of fame quarterback who
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: claims they can still play, but they'd been down this
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: road and they also probably knew that this could end uncomfortably. But,
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: you know, if you, if they had waited, you know,
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: they might not have been able to find a quarterback.
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: And there was a risk of going too soon. And yeah,
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: Barb almost takes the Minnesota Vikings to a Super Bowl, right?
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: He makes it to an overtime NFC championship game loss.
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: So that certainly is the risk there. But the irony
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: is that the drafting of Jordan Love seems to motivate
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers, doesn't it? It does.
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he goes out and wins another MVP, right? He
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 2: wanted to show them that he wasn't done. Back to back, yeah.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: Um, so in some ways it's great because you get
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: the best possible version of Aaron Rodgers for the remainder
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: of your time. And now you set yourself up for,
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: you know, a capable quarterback taking it. And obviously still
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 2: a lot of unanswered questions with Jordan Love, particularly when
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 2: it comes to the playoffs. But, um, but you could
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: do a lot worse. You know, it's not like there's
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 2: a huge question mark at quarterback for the Packers. Um,
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 2: you know, one thing all these guys had in common, um,
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 2: you know, they, they did really well against the, um,
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 2: against the Bears. Most important, to be honest. Rodgers in particular, 24-5.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 2: That's why of all the things that he's said, he's
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 2: got a lot of trouble with statements that he's made.
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 2: But the one categorically true thing that he said was
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: when he yelled at those Bears fans, I still own you.
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: And again, I'm neutral in this thing, but I love
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: that moment because you get the right to do that
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 2: when you dominate your rival to the extent that he has.
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: Jordan Love, four and two so far, you know, and
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: then was on the wrong side of that incredible comeback
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: that remains one of the great Bears memories, that incredible
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: Caleb Williams-led comeback in the playoffs last season. But so
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: Jordan Love still, you know, a lot to, a long
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 2: way to go before we can really mention him in
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 2: the same sense as Favre and Rodgers.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: Well, but look, even though he does the back-to-back MVPs
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: on the field, 2021 ends the same way. Green Bay's
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: the number one seed. San Francisco comes to Lambeau. Packers
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: don't score an offensive touchdown after the opening drive. Special
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: teams gives up a tying touchdown. And somehow those Kyle
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: Shanahan 49ers win a game 13-10 out of nowhere. And
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: Rodgers finishes his career... as a Packers playoff starting quarterback,
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: and he's now 0-4 in playoff games against the 49ers. Ironically,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: it is the team that decided not to draft him
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: that he was always supposedly so bitter about. Yeah, his hometown, right?
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: It was his hometown team, and he drafts that way. And,
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: you know, look, what's interesting there is that after that
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: playoff loss, even though he spends one more year This
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: is clearly the end, right? Devontae Adams leaves. Rodgers plays
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: with a broken thumb. The offense never clicks. He makes
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: a late run. They get really close. And it looks
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: like they might actually, in the last game of the season,
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: maybe they sneak back into the playoffs. But the last
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: pass that Aaron Rodgers ever throws as a Packer is
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: an interception, which creates this weird, strange symmetry with Brett
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: Favre because Brett Favre's final pass as a Packer interception
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: in the NFC title game against the Giants. Aaron Rodgers,
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: final Packers pass, interception in a season-ending loss to Detroit.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: And of course, Favre's final pass as an NFL player
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: is an interception. But the football gods were not subtle here.
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: Rodgers walks off Lambeau Field, arm and arm with Randall Cobb,
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: and the next few months are basically about formalizing something
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: both sides increasingly understand. This relationship is over, J.A., between
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers and the Packers. But here we are. I mean,
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 1: and this is sort of, this is probably a good
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: way to sort of land this plane here on this
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: episode before we get to our Mount Rushmore's here of
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: the Packers, which is, it's another uncomfortable exit, J.A., right?
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: So we have Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Mike Holmgren, Vince Lombardi,
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: Curly Lambeau. But in each case, it goes back to
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: the Packers as an institution always putting the Packers before
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: any individual institution And yet, without those individuals, there wouldn't
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: be a Green Bay Packers.
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but what endures? The institution, right? And that's why
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: it's funny. When you think of the great teams, usually
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: there's great... The one thing they have in common for
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: multiple dynasties, especially I look at the Los Angeles Lakers, right?
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 2: Jerry Buss, he won five championships in the Showtime era,
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: and then he won three with Kobe and Shaq. And
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 2: then he went two more with Kobe and Pau Gasol.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: And so the one common thread through all those was
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: Jerry Butts. So, you know, the importance of stability at
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 2: the top and clairvoyance at the top and just, you know,
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 2: that guidance and leadership and consistency. You know, if there's
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 2: one individual that you have to have that's right, it
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 2: better be that person that's sitting in the, in that
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 2: chair with the exception of the Packers. The Packers are
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: kind of a little bit of a contradiction.
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: To it, right?
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 2: Cause it's not so individual.
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: Let me ask, let me ask you this is the dot. What,
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: what makes the Packers a dynasty? Is it Lombardi? Is
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: it the number of championships? Is it this amazing ability
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: to put the team before any court? You know, I,
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: I could argue that as remarkable as two three-peats are,
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: having more quarterbacks in a 35-year period than head coaches
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: is more remarkable than that. But what do you believe
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: makes the Packers dynastic?
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: Community, and dare I say communism.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: Is this socialistic capitalism or capitalistic socialism that makes the
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: Green Bay Packers dynasty possible?
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 2: Probably capitalistic socialism, you know, slash, you know, borderline communism
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 2: of the NFL. But first, you know, we talked about it,
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: the fact that the community stepped up to support the
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: team when it needed it and, you know, provide the
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: funds when things were very shaky in the early stages
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: of professional football. But then the community-based ethos, that communistic
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: approach of share the wealth, from Pete Rozelle in the NFL.
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: So you could argue Pete Rozelle is the single greatest
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: figure in Packers history. If you're gonna look to an individual,
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: would the Packers have been the Packers for these last
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 2: six decades without Pete Rozelle? So you could- Or George Halas.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because George Halas didn't have to share the wealth.
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: But again, that gets to the community.
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 2: That gets to George Halas having a communal mindset. and
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: supporting them, even though they're his rivals, recognizing that the
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 2: group is better. And then Lombardi being able to instill
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 2: this communal mindset of individual sacrifice for the good of
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: the team. So I think it keeps coming back to community,
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: and it's hard to put it on any one individual.
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's fair to say that you can't
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: write the history of the NFL without the Packers. And
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: there are a few other franchises that are pretty important
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: in the NFL. And maybe today's modern NFL, the Cowboys
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: matter a lot, but you can't tell the story of
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: the NFL without the Packers.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 2: But what's amazing is that the Packers have been more
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 2: continuously successful than the Cowboys. They've won in this millennium,
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 2: unlike the Cowboys, despite all the advantages, the inherent advantages
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: that the Cowboys have.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: That's really amazing. All right, buddy. I think it's Mount
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: Rushmore time.
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 2: I'm actually revising this on the fly based on our conversation.
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 1: Interesting. All right. Well, look, we both are going to
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: have Lombardi on it, right? Yes. And are we both
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: going to have Lambeau? Yeah, I think you have to
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: have Lambeau. How do you not have the founder, right?
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: So Lambeau and Lombardi. Now the question is, who are
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: the next two? And I don't know if it's easy.
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: Who are yours?
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go with Barr just because he kind
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: of restored them. You could argue that Rodgers even exceeded him,
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: but Parv set the bar, the modern bar for them.
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: Then we mentioned him earlier. I'll give him a little
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 2: more credit here in Reggie White.
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you did that. I was tempted. I decided
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 1: not to put Reggie White, but Because I feel like, well,
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 1: I'm going to only pick one from that era. Is
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: it Favre or is it White? Right. And does White
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: go there without Favre?
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 2: So but here's what just in our course of our
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 2: conversation here, I'm tempted to do.
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 1: And.
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 2: I could say you, Chuck Todd, as one of the shareholders,
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 2: the shareholders. And, and, you know, because they went, they
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: won't all fit all, how many outstanding shareholders are there?
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know how many thousands or, but so, you know,
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: if there's only room for one face up there, how
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 2: about we have you as representative of the Packard communal shareholder.
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 1: So we're etching.
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 2: Chuck Todd's face.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's, that's, that's a, On the.
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 2: Mountain in South Dakota.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: Look, I think Lil Wayne's also a... We'll go Lil Wayne. Yeah,
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: we can put Lil Wayne on there too. The locks
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: might be a little hard to etch. No, but I will... Look,
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: I think it's... Three of the same. I think you
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: have to put Favre on there with Lombardi and Lambeau.
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 1: But I wanted to do White, but I think you've...
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: I come back and.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: I come back to Starr. I think I will go
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: ahead and put Starr there just because even though he
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: didn't succeed necessarily as a coach and a GM, there's
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: sort of this purity of him. And he's like where
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: the other quarterbacks have not always carried themselves, made it
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: easy to wear their jerseys in public. I've never had
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: a problem wearing a Bart star Jersey. So I'm going
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: to put star as my, as my fourth on there,
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: but this was, this was a, was one of those.
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: I think, I think it's hard not to, and it
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: was even tempting to put Bob Harlan on there, but
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a minute. We got, we can't have
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: three non-players on a Mount Rushmore. So Lombard, I'm going
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: to stick with the Farvin.
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 2: If any franchise again, because so much of the Packers
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 2: is not.
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 1: About the players. Yeah.
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: Even though they've had some great, I mean, 29, well,
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 2: I guess 29 Hall of Fame total, but, you know,
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: more than 20 players in the Hall of Fame, right? So,
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, they've had some great legendary players, but the
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 2: story of the Packers is really not about the players.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: No, it's not. And I think that at this point,
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: I'd like to think we've hammered that home in this episode. Hey,
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 1: a reminder, please follow us on social media at dynasticpod
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: and to follow, like, and review us wherever you listen
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 1: to your podcast and on our YouTube channel. We're looking forward.
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 1: We'll have another one, a third episode here on the
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 1: Packers with somebody that will be able to provide a
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: little bit more of an inside look at what life
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 1: has been like with this franchise.
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 2: Reminder that we're only as good as our source material,
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 2: and we're fortunate we have so many outstanding books on
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 2: the Packers. Here are the books that we all read,
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: and in addition to our producers and researchers for this episode,
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 2: Green Bay Packers, Trials, Triumphs, and Tradition by William Pavlovich.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 2: The Packers, Green, Gold, and Glory from Sports Illustrated. The
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 2: Packer Legend by John Terrenis. When Pride Still Mattered by
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 2: David Maraniss. Bart Starr and the Rise of the National
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 2: Football League by Keith Donovan. Instant Replay by Jerry Kramer.
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: And Dick Schaaf.
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 2: Brand NFL by Michael Oriard. Along with our executive producer
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 2: and partner, Steve Hall, we want to thank Andrew Sampson,
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: the head of program at our production partner, Showboat Media,
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 2: Kevin Kennedy, our producer, and Meredith Violi, our researcher. In
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 2: our next episode, we'll interview that leading expert on the
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 2: Packers that Chuck told you about, and we'll see you then.
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: And now we can start doing the go, pack, go. Go, down, down, down, down. Go, pack, go.