Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the delightful Matt Cox about his choice of The Giggle

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Talks to the delightful Matt Cox about his choice of The Giggle · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:36
  Quicker. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 0:39
  blood pen. Knives, The Doctor Who
• 0:42
  commentary podcast. My name is No, I'm actually
• 0:46
  starting to sound like Tryst from Nightmare of Eden, aren't
• 0:49
  I? Are you claiming superior
• 0:51
  knowledge, Matt? Yeah, I don't know.
• 0:58
  I don't have to have onto that one.
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  Yeah, yeah. Hello everybody.
• 1:01
  Always. Yes.
• 1:02
  Yes, well, let's just start in the usual way then.
• 1:04
  Welcome back to a Hamster of the and Knife, the Doctor Who
• 1:07
  commentary podcast. I'm here today with the
• 1:10
  delicious. That's right, I said it.
• 1:14
  Wow. Matthew Cox.
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  Hello, Matthew. Hello, Joe.
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  Matthew So very formal. Yes, Mr. Mr. Matthew Cox.
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  Mr. Cox Yeah, yes. Cox Oh, not going Cox, Yeah.
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  Now. Look now, this is technically
• 1:32
  your second hamster commentaries after your meteoric success
• 1:37
  doing Marco Polo 7 episodes that game in guesses at 4 hours worth
• 1:44
  material madness. But this will be going out
• 1:47
  first. So this is sort of technically
• 1:49
  everybody's that's not on the Patreon's first exposure to you.
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  You're not going to expose yourself to them, are you it?
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  Depends how good they are. We'll see.
• 2:00
  Fair enough, fair enough. So, Matt, well, what are we
• 2:03
  talking about today? We're talking about one of my
• 2:08
  most anticipated episodes of of of experience, like on on a
• 2:14
  first watch basis, which is the giggle.
• 2:16
  Most anticipated, you say? Well.
• 2:19
  The reason for that is mainly because I'm a massive fan of the
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  toy maker, so the idea of him coming back was just incredible
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  to me. Like Celestial Toy Maker, the
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  Nightmare Fair, that sort of thing.
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  The cluster of toilet maker. Yeah, not so much the nightmare
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  fare if if I'm honest, but there you go.
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  I mean, search your toy maker is very slow though, right?
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  Oh, it's great though. It's amazing.
• 2:44
  You're quite gender. With Fraser's son, you know.
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  Yeah, probably. Obsessed with it apparently.
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  Did you like the new animation of that?
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  Yeah, I was at the PFI for that one.
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  I very much enjoyed it. I remember well, Ian Levine was
• 2:58
  there and he he didn't enjoy. You could basically see the
• 3:02
  steam coming out of his ears from the front row.
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  What have you done? Exactly.
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  No, but very creative. A big step up from the Weber
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  fear was the, you know, the 3D animation and all that.
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  And yeah, yeah, really sort of give it an extra dimension, that
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  story. Not that you needed it because
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  it is a classic anyway, obviously, but yeah.
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  Classic. Well, we may be redefining the
• 3:20
  term classic there, but yeah, yeah, I'm very pleased that you
• 3:25
  like it. Yes, yes.
• 3:27
  Someone has bought about sort of big finish celestial toy maker.
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  You know, Matthew Sweets, the Magic mousetrap.
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  Absolute bang out. I think solitaire is probably my
• 3:38
  favorite. I think that was John Dorney's
• 3:39
  first, I believe 2 handed with Charlie Pollard, yeah.
• 3:42
  That's the Queen of Time. Did you hear that one?
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  That was very good. I really like that 10 did.
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  You. I did.
• 3:49
  Yeah, I did. I mean, it's basically a remake
• 3:51
  but with a with like a clock theme.
• 3:54
  But yeah, I did really enjoy that one as well, I can't lie.
• 3:57
  Yeah, I recently read the book of the Nightmare Fair, which I
• 4:00
  found absolutely turgid, but I did quite enjoy the audio,
• 4:05
  mostly because it's got Colin and Nicola in it.
• 4:08
  You can't go wrong. Giving it a bit of oomph, you
• 4:10
  know. Yeah, exactly.
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  I it's been a long time since I heard the audio, but I don't
• 4:14
  remember a lot about it. Which probably says it all,
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  really. So and so can I ask you.
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  That was so when you finally, you know, you worked your way
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  through the Star Beast and that spectacular opening of all that
• 4:26
  exposition. You've worked your way through
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  Wild Blue Yonder, with Doctor and Donna dribbling from the
• 4:32
  ceiling and all sorts, and here we are, The Giggle.
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  The Celestial toy maker is back, and was it the night of your
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  life? I I very much enjoyed it.
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  I can't remember watching it for the first time.
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  Now you mention it so that that's not the best sign, but
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  no, I did very much enjoy it. I've this is a this is a classic
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  again for me. I'm very pleased with it.
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  In fact, if anything it it I think it might be the toy makers
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  best appearance potentially, and I say that as a as a fan.
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  As I say so, I think it improved the character even more.
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  As somebody who hasn't been too thrilled about the Celestial
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  Tour maker, I'd probably agree with you on that point.
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  When I watched it back this time, I really enjoyed the first
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  40 minutes. Right, Yeah, the second we're up
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  on that UNIT thing, overlooking with him at the laser, I'm kind
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  of out everything that happens after that, pulling people open
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  like Christmas crackers, creating Tardises with big
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  hammers, retiring David Tennant and technically every other
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  Doctor. It's where the story starts.
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  And where the story ends is such a different place.
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  The 1st 40 minutes, it's a condensed story about the toy
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  maker, right, and his impact on the world.
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  And it's got a savage commentary on humanity and social media and
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  how how right we all think we are.
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  All of that's abandoned at the 40 minute mark.
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  All of it. That's all the themes,
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  everything. Just to have scenes in the
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  console room where they're talking about fucking Adric,
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  Maverick Chen, Sarah Jane and Shooty Gatwas vamping around in
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  his knickers. And I'm like, how did we get
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  from there to there? I don't understand.
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  Now tell me how much. I mean, I don't object.
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  The sad truth is, Matt, is that when you when you learn things
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  about people, very pretty, people can become less pretty.
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  On screen or more pretty, you know, sometimes, on some
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  occasions. Sometimes the ugly people, when
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  you learn what they're like in real life and they're lovely,
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  they become more pretty. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  This is sort. Of well, I mean, I mean, if
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  they're bad, then that makes them all the more appealing.
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  What? In real life?
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  The only person who does that for me is Lala Ward.
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  I'm afraid the the meaner that she is on commentaries the the
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  stiffer I get if I want to. Wow, that is an achievement,
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  yeah. You want Lala Ward telling you
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  off with a big whip and stilettos 100?
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  Percent. Yeah, so relaxed there saying
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  that. What do you think then?
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  Because it is, it is a diversion that that ending it does go
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  somewhere else. It does completely derail the
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  entire story. It reminds me of Flesh and
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  Stone. I think does the same thing.
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  You got this whole build up of the angels and then the crack
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  just comes in and just completely, you know.
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  You know how big Amy's crack is? No one's got a hope I've.
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  Studied it long and hard Yeah, exactly.
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  So grief. Yeah.
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  So yeah, again, in this case the.
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  Well, I suppose it's not the series arc, but the the bigger
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  picture of the series comes in and takes over the story at the
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  end, which is a bit of a shame. I mean, if for me it brings it
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  down from a 10 from a 10 out of 10 to a nine out of 10 kind of
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  levels, that kind of does knock it down a bit.
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  But I don't have a major problem with what it does.
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  To be honest, I don't really get what all the fuss is about.
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  I'm sort of, I'm, I reckon I'm sort of about annoying until
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  that for him. Then I would knock it down to
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  about a six overall after that. I mean really, I was like, I was
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  so on board and I was like all the stuff at unit, the Spice
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  Girls number, the Donna fight and the dolls, all of it.
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  I was like, yeah, this is gold, man.
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  Why didn't RTT do say stay as good as this?
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  This is great. And then, you know, literally
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  they're pulling 2 arms apart and yeah, and I, and I just, I, I
• 8:30
  was sort of like gape Jord, like what?
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  And it all comes down to a game of catch.
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  That's. I think that's perfectly in
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  keeping with the toy maker. That's what it's all about
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  games. It's all about a small scale
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  thing representing something huge, I think.
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  How? It looks like we've got some
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  fights later. How wonderful.
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  Hang on, I'll just get the oils ready.
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  OK. Right.
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  Well, look, should we go in and watch this thing and, and, and
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  see what it's got? Now, remember at the end, we've
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  got extra time to talk about our three fabulous things in the
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  episode. If I'm being mean, I might do my
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  three least fabulous things, but let's see.
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  OK, What? You care to count us in?
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  Yeah, OK. Right.
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  SO321 Play. Oh, you're not a man who hangs
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  about, are you? Definitely not straight to.
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  The bottom. I've been told that before
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  actually. I mean, you can't fault the
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  production values though, you know it's.
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  Extreme. Already.
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  I know already. I was in Soho just this weekend.
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  Really. Doing what?
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  Yeah. I was at the crazy Cox jazz
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  nightclub, very Art Deco, seeing all the loft, yeah.
• 9:46
  Crazy Cox. No, it's.
• 9:49
  Not as excited as it sounds. I've been called that before.
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  Oh, have you? So now here we have Neil Patrick
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  Harris. I know big big name to get
• 10:00
  involved. He's huge, right?
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  Is it I've? Never seen him in anything
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  personally but I know who he is, obviously you.
• 10:07
  Must have seen How I Met your mother at least once.
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  I've watched, I think my mate is a big fan and he put on episode
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  1 once and I didn't really like it.
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  He's an oddly problematic character in that because he's
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  very, he's a womanizer, but he's, I mean, he does a number
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  in one episode all about these fabulous suits that he likes
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  wearing. I mean, talented doesn't begin
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  to describe he can do everything.
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  He can dance. He can.
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  Oh, he does it all in this. Yeah, definitely.
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  I'm not sure about the accent though, I know it's supposed to
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  be a cold accent. Yeah, yeah.
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  It's meant to be a bit exaggerated in it, so fair
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  enough it works. Fucking hell, now ventriloquist
• 10:44
  dolls scare me so much. But ventriloquist dolls that
• 10:48
  look like the sore man from those movies, You know when he's
• 10:52
  on the screen later, it does look like the sore man, don't
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  it? He does a bit now you mention
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  it. Yeah.
• 10:57
  Yeah, it does a bit. Yeah.
• 10:59
  I remember I watched a documentary about John Logie
• 11:02
  Baird. It was hosted by Jeremy
• 11:05
  Clarkson, all people. I didn't record him and I
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  watched it must about 10 times. So I was just so interested in
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  the creation television as well. So this is another reason why I
• 11:12
  feel like this episode was like made for me in a lot of ways,
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  because you've got that, you've got the toy maker, Tennant and
• 11:18
  Tate, which are one of my favourite duos ever.
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  RTD was obviously back. He was my childhood show runner.
• 11:23
  So this was like aimed at me specifically this episode.
• 11:27
  I promise I'm not doing this on purpose, but I have got to offer
• 11:30
  an opposing view where I can go for it.
• 11:32
  They do drop that television thing 5 minutes in though.
• 11:36
  Yeah, they do. They do.
• 11:38
  Yeah, and obviously I kept thinking, my God, this is going
• 11:40
  to, this is really going to be an interesting historical story.
• 11:44
  Nope, not at all. Nah, Well, you know it.
• 11:47
  It serves its purpose at the beginning of the episode and
• 11:49
  then that's that's all it's needed really in it so.
• 11:53
  So are we shooting some proper episode because Neil Patrick
• 11:56
  Harris worked with Rusty Davis in It's a Sin?
• 12:00
  Yeah, I'm assuming that's that's the connection here.
• 12:03
  And that's how he ends up. It's gotta.
• 12:05
  Be I mean, I can't they did they get any other big American stars
• 12:09
  later on after this? I don't think they have.
• 12:10
  I think it's one. I do.
• 12:12
  I actually find it baffling the Patrick Harris wasn't in a
• 12:16
  shooting at our episode. Like they didn't say that big
• 12:20
  name because you've already got so much in these three.
• 12:24
  One to capture Doctor Who fans, you know, beat the Meep and
• 12:28
  Tenet and Tate. You know, you've got you've got
• 12:30
  enough things that you can hang this trilogy on without throwing
• 12:35
  Neil Patrick Harris in there as well.
• 12:36
  I mean, it's a wonderful extra. Yeah, exactly.
• 12:41
  Mine's very loud. The music.
• 12:43
  Cheers, Murray. It's really loud.
• 12:44
  Turn that down. I'll see now I don't have any
• 12:47
  sound whatsoever. I kept thinking that was Mark
• 12:49
  Gatiss. You know it's not, is it?
• 12:52
  No, he was in. He was.
• 12:53
  He's playing John Woogie Baird in RTDS Nollie I believe, and
• 12:56
  that's why I got reconfigured. Did you watch Nollie?
• 12:59
  That was so great. She was on the monster.
• 13:02
  I'll tell you what. Is it cannon now though because
• 13:05
  of this same casting? Is it technically cannon?
• 13:08
  Yeah, I think we could say so. Why not?
• 13:09
  I mean, Crossroads was being made at the same time as Doctor
• 13:12
  Who. Yeah, there you go.
• 13:13
  With some of the same creatives, right?
• 13:15
  Terrorist sticks. Was.
• 13:17
  Oh yeah. Malcolm Hulk.
• 13:18
  Yeah. Don Houston.
• 13:20
  Yeah, Oh my God. Look at that, that head on fire
• 13:23
  isn't that creepy? That is pretty creepy.
• 13:26
  Look, it's it's. Blistering and bubbling.
• 13:30
  What do you think of this title sequence?
• 13:32
  But it's so busy, isn't it? Jesus Christ, Mario Golf's got a
• 13:37
  900 piece orchestra play the music I miss second.
• 13:42
  If I'm honest, I I really love second Akanola's music and I
• 13:46
  find Murray's style now a bit overpowering and unsubtle.
• 13:52
  But saying that, there are sequences in this episode where
• 13:55
  I think he underscores it brilliantly.
• 13:58
  I think that there there's, I remember noticing some music
• 14:01
  later on that really impressed me.
• 14:02
  I think Murray, I think since Series 7, he's sort of run out
• 14:05
  of ideas largely, apart from a few exceptions.
• 14:07
  I yeah, I think he should have given it up then.
• 14:09
  Really should have left with Matt Smith, probably.
• 14:11
  Like even this, right, all of these riots and the plane that
• 14:15
  crashes down, a plane crashes down on a housing estate and we
• 14:19
  don't even deal with it. Like this is more ideas, and
• 14:22
  this is an episode in its own right as well, that we don't
• 14:26
  actually go down that route. Yeah, exactly.
• 14:30
  It's pretty big. I mean, I don't really get like
• 14:32
  the idea of the giggle meaning where where everyone thinks
• 14:35
  they're right. I don't know how that translate
• 14:37
  into being suicidal at the same time.
• 14:39
  Do you know what I mean? I mean, that seems like a bit of
• 14:40
  a leap to me. I just think the I'm not sure
• 14:43
  the idea of creating a Society of people who will fight for
• 14:49
  their opinion in society that we're in now where people are
• 14:55
  very passionate about their opinion.
• 14:57
  It's really scary. And the bit that less this,
• 15:02
  although it's well staged because I love the toy maker
• 15:05
  dancing and all the cartilage, that's great fun.
• 15:07
  The bit where Kate Stewart takes off her belt and suddenly gets
• 15:13
  paranoid and angry and all of those things that we feel from
• 15:17
  time to time. It is effective.
• 15:20
  I just think it there's, there's a whole episode in this.
• 15:23
  Yeah, definitely. It's a very biting commentary on
• 15:26
  current Internet culture, yeah. Doesn't Tennant say at one point
• 15:29
  you don't get away, Scott Free humanity because he couldn't
• 15:32
  have preyed on your. Oh, excuse me, Hang on.
• 15:34
  I need to look at Colonel Wimbraham.
• 15:36
  Oh boy. I'm just seeing a sort of blank
• 15:38
  void on the screen. I'm not really getting anything
• 15:40
  from him to be honest. What?
• 15:41
  Do you mean is he blurred out? Oh, you're being funny.
• 15:45
  I'm sorry. Yeah.
• 15:48
  There's there's a plank of wood. I'm just saying I don't know.
• 15:51
  Oh bloody wishy. Was a plank of wood good?
• 15:53
  Grief. All the things you'd do with
• 15:54
  that wood. I said, oh, look at this now,
• 15:56
  this is the most Avengers thing that RTD, didn't he?
• 16:00
  We're going to tow, tow across the Stark Tower, sorry, Unit
• 16:04
  Tower now in the middle of London.
• 16:06
  It's not very subtle form of advertising for Unit, is it?
• 16:10
  Well, nor was the the big sign outside saying top secret keep
• 16:14
  out. That kind of goes against it as
• 16:16
  well. It's sort of just a level up
• 16:17
  from that really, isn't it? I don't often say that sort of
• 16:20
  thing, but maybe Moffett got it right when he put them in the
• 16:24
  Tower of London, you know? Oh no, that was the Christmas
• 16:26
  Invasion, wouldn't it? Sorry, No, get out.
• 16:29
  No, no. Now, I have to say I'm Julie
• 16:35
  obliged to point out that Lucy McCall absolutely despises the
• 16:39
  RTD version of Kate Stewart and she loves Kate Stewart.
• 16:44
  Yeah, you know, the the sort of, she likes the sort of no
• 16:46
  nonsense business Kate Stewart who doesn't have a personal
• 16:50
  life, you know, and doesn't, doesn't bother with boring
• 16:53
  things like that and just gets on with saving the world.
• 16:55
  Whereas nowadays she's a big Davina McCall fan and is having
• 16:59
  it off with Colonel Abraham. I think, I think the opposite.
• 17:03
  I think this is where she becomes a character in this
• 17:05
  episode, you know, from this point onwards.
• 17:08
  I think she's always tedious. Gemma read great.
• 17:11
  Relatively speaking. She's such when she gets thrown
• 17:14
  into the wall later, it's the best thing.
• 17:15
  Like possibly. I when I first watched that, I
• 17:18
  howled with laughter. Excuse me, did I just see Bonnie
• 17:22
  Langford as male? That's unbelievable.
• 17:26
  Last evening, dragon fire. God, madness.
• 17:28
  Welcome back, Melanie Bush. And all the characters.
• 17:31
  We was promised, weren't we? She goes.
• 17:33
  Ohh, finally I'm being written as a character and I'm gonna get
• 17:36
  all this great back story. Yeah.
• 17:39
  When it didn't happen, though, did it?
• 17:41
  Nothing of it happens. Well, I think compared to her
• 17:43
  appearances in the 80s, it's definitely a step up was.
• 17:47
  Come the terror of the Verve voice.
• 17:49
  Alright, 434445. Well, she's fun, but yeah, you
• 17:56
  know, in Big Finish she's great obviously as well.
• 17:58
  But back. In the 80s, she had lines like
• 18:00
  the answer's obvious to me. You've got a killer on board.
• 18:04
  Yeah. Oh, wonderful.
• 18:05
  Oh, yeah. The Prime Minister there going.
• 18:08
  I don't care about any of you. Yeah.
• 18:11
  Did they make the very pointed remark?
• 18:14
  How is that any different from usual?
• 18:17
  Something like that. Yeah, something like that.
• 18:19
  And they obviously got the blinks here.
• 18:20
  That's obviously been well explained in the, in the, in
• 18:22
  the. Why does?
• 18:23
  Everyone hate the blinks as much as they do you.
• 18:26
  See, well, I don't hate the blinks, it's just I just wish we
• 18:30
  had a bit more of him. I, I'm calling it Nicholas
• 18:33
  Briggs fatigue. You know, we're all just a bit
• 18:36
  bored of Nicholas Briggs voice and everything.
• 18:39
  Are you not a fan of him? You've not mentioned that.
• 18:41
  What? No.
• 18:42
  Well, you know, I like to keep the things under my heart.
• 18:44
  Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:45
  You don't have to talk about it very much now.
• 18:47
  Now, I absolutely fucking love Ruth Maidley as an actress.
• 18:51
  She paid Hebe in the 6th Doctor Big Finish audios and she had
• 18:55
  amazing character arc, right? I was absolutely loved it.
• 19:00
  She didn't get nothing to do. She never got anything to do in
• 19:03
  RTD 2, did she? She was meant to be in the
• 19:08
  Legend of Ruby Sunday tea parter as well, but she wasn't
• 19:11
  available or something, so maybe that was part of it.
• 19:13
  But yeah, that's. Why we had that little person on
• 19:16
  this, on this sort of hover scooter?
• 19:18
  Yeah, Lenny Rush's character. Yeah, what Morris was it?
• 19:21
  Hell, was that all about? Never before have I looked
• 19:24
  around at UNIT and thought, what is happening in this circus?
• 19:28
  Yeah. Having a lot of children these
• 19:31
  days, aren't they? Yeah.
• 19:32
  Well. Yeah, I won't.
• 19:34
  Say it, but you know what I'm thinking.
• 19:36
  All right? Yeah.
• 19:37
  Yeah. I've got some spare tickets, I'm
• 19:39
  just going suddenly. I don't know where that's going.
• 19:42
  From can you? Yeah, weird.
• 19:45
  Oh God, Turn off the pumps. Turn off the pumps.
• 19:49
  Oh, now Gemma Redgrave acts this scene amazingly well.
• 19:55
  You can't stop me. I've seen you walking, you know.
• 19:58
  Yeah, that is the sort of thing people say in it.
• 20:01
  Yeah. Yeah, it's mad.
• 20:02
  Yeah, very true to. Life.
• 20:04
  It's basically I think she's sort of playing every single
• 20:06
  person on the midnight bus, all of them in one go.
• 20:10
  Yeah, probably. Oh, I got, I got, I got a night
• 20:13
  bus through east London last year.
• 20:15
  That was an experience like that, was it?
• 20:17
  Well, I'm empty as as I was waiting at the stop to get on
• 20:21
  the bus, a bus pulled up across the road and then the police car
• 20:24
  pulled up behind it and arrested someone on the bus that would
• 20:26
  have already even got on the bus.
• 20:27
  And then that midway through the journey, some, some like a group
• 20:32
  of teenagers sort of didn't pay and just all, all crowded on.
• 20:35
  And then the TfL police had to come in and set, you know, get
• 20:38
  everyone's ticket or whatever. And I was just like, oh, God,
• 20:41
  I'm not doing this again. This.
• 20:42
  Is a night out, you know, and cruelly did people pay tickets
• 20:45
  for that sort of bus tripping cruelly?
• 20:48
  Oh dear. Yeah, that was an experience
• 20:49
  that was. Look at this, the two Gingers
• 20:52
  together, Donna and Mel. I mean, I can't think of a more
• 20:55
  formidable team. Oh, Trinity Wells.
• 20:59
  I know. Oh, that's great.
• 21:01
  And. I am anti zedex.
• 21:05
  I think I've heard a lot of people saying about how she's
• 21:07
  that's, that's sort of her character now.
• 21:09
  But surely that's a result of the giggles.
• 21:11
  That's not her permanent personality now, surely.
• 21:14
  We see her again. Lucky day, don't we?
• 21:17
  I can't remember, actually. Yeah.
• 21:19
  You know, you know, when we start seeing all the news
• 21:21
  reports about about unit and questions about their funding
• 21:24
  and stuff like that. Yeah.
• 21:27
  Like, I think at this point the unit set up is working, right.
• 21:31
  I think I I feel like Russell has a good instinct for pulling
• 21:35
  together a group of characters. And you've got Ruth Maidley's
• 21:38
  character Bonnie Langford's, you add in David Tennant and
• 21:42
  Catherine Tay. You've got Gemma Redgrave who's
• 21:45
  established. You bring in Abraham, who's
• 21:47
  quite cute. You put them in this beautiful
• 21:49
  set, this enormous set. He did it with the Harbin
• 21:54
  torture would he did it with the attic in Sarah Jane and
• 21:58
  obviously the TARDIS in Doctor Who.
• 22:00
  He has a really good instinct of finding a base and and bringing
• 22:04
  together a group of characters. I just don't know what happened
• 22:08
  in Gatwil seasons. It just.
• 22:10
  Didn't work, not really. I I don't think they kept a
• 22:14
  consistent personnel. I think that was part of the
• 22:17
  problem. It was just a lot of rotating
• 22:19
  set of randomness. She just.
• 22:21
  Kept inviting everyone that was involved in the adventures to
• 22:23
  come and join. Oh, Susan Twist.
• 22:25
  Yeah. Weren't you?
• 22:26
  Were weren't you a cafe owner at one point?
• 22:28
  Yeah. Come and work for you.
• 22:29
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:32
  Crazy. Yeah.
• 22:34
  Oh, I did like that Bonnie got to go.
• 22:36
  La La La La La La la. Yeah, you.
• 22:39
  Yeah, using the talents as always.
• 22:40
  Yeah. I really like that that like I
• 22:42
  think in a in a normal science fiction story, this would just
• 22:44
  be some sort of signal or like or, you know, from a satellite
• 22:47
  where it's here, it's it's a melody.
• 22:49
  How creative is that? That's what I love the toy
• 22:50
  maker. It's just so outside the box.
• 22:53
  Yeah, that as well. That as well.
• 22:54
  Yeah, I really. But you know, it is a bit like
• 22:57
  and this is my issue with R2D2. It's a bit like the masters, the
• 23:01
  the the the the, the I wasn't issue.
• 23:05
  And he did sort of go back to his greatest hits, didn't he in
• 23:09
  RTD 2? He did.
• 23:10
  I think he brought a lot of new elements in though as well.
• 23:13
  I think he did plenty new. That was enough for me.
• 23:17
  It's sort of personally speaking, I know this is and
• 23:20
  this is just me, but it's a perfect balance between
• 23:22
  nostalgia from my childhood era versus brand new elements.
• 23:27
  Personally I think the the whole fantasy angle I think is might
• 23:32
  be the biggest new source of storytelling we've had since
• 23:36
  since they started doing present day stories in the war machines.
• 23:39
  Potentially. I don't know bold statement but.
• 23:42
  If it is such a perfect balance of old and new, why did no
• 23:45
  fucker watch it? Well, it's not a perfect balance
• 23:50
  for everyone else. Not for.
• 23:51
  For me it was. I think Dylan Race is right when
• 23:55
  he says that kids just aren't watching TV like they used to.
• 23:59
  They are watching TikTok and all those other, you know, services
• 24:02
  that that they can do and to sit there for an hour with something
• 24:06
  like this, I just don't think it's out there anymore.
• 24:09
  No, I, I don't think the industry's in the right place
• 24:11
  for this. I don't think, I don't think the
• 24:12
  world's ready for for this era, basically.
• 24:15
  Well, she's a shame, yeah, because, and I will throw plenty
• 24:18
  of shade, I've been really disappointed by Russell in his
• 24:21
  second era. But that whole sequence there,
• 24:26
  it's a ton of exposition being delivered by about 8 characters
• 24:30
  in really quick succession. It reminds me a bit of the
• 24:33
  Narrows it down, narrows it down from World War Three.
• 24:36
  And he does that really well, gets across loads of
• 24:39
  information, but through the mouths of characters with tons
• 24:42
  of personality. So it doesn't feel unlike
• 24:45
  Chibnall who, and you know me, I absolutely love that era.
• 24:48
  But boy, oh boy, can he have people standing around going
• 24:51
  right. I'm going to tell you for the
• 24:52
  next 10 minutes what this plot's all about.
• 24:56
  Yeah, I mean, even Moffett, I find he just give Matt Smith
• 24:59
  like 4 paragraphs worth to just doing about 20 in about 20
• 25:02
  seconds and he just get he'll just blow it all out and then
• 25:05
  you just meant to keep up somehow.
• 25:07
  Well, I think Auntie does that the best.
• 25:09
  Yeah, I I think you're right. Yeah, but Moffett does it with
• 25:11
  crass jokes as well, doesn't he? And.
• 25:15
  He does. He does, yeah.
• 25:17
  I mean. Don't you worry, they can be
• 25:18
  back next season. Oh yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
• 25:22
  Yeah, I think he can be funny, but that's overset the mark as
• 25:26
  well. Please.
• 25:27
  I wish that camera would linger a bit longer on Colonel Abraham.
• 25:30
  You know, he's not of a personality.
• 25:32
  He's got massive ears. You can just grab hold of them
• 25:34
  and ride him. Amazing.
• 25:36
  Bit like Russell Tovey, you know?
• 25:38
  Yeah, I suppose so, yeah. How good?
• 25:41
  How good is Tennant as this new Doctor?
• 25:45
  I I a lot of people have said he's like much better than he
• 25:48
  used to be. I think he's more or less the
• 25:49
  same, just with a bit more character development.
• 25:51
  Really. I'm not seeing a big difference.
• 25:53
  Toned down the worst excesses of his.
• 25:56
  You know, he's toned down that a bit.
• 26:01
  I think he'd done that by Series 3 anyway.
• 26:03
  Personally I don't. I think it's a series 2 tenant.
• 26:06
  He's a bit much and then one way bright.
• 26:09
  Darling's in Manhattan 2 par again, all right, he shouts.
• 26:12
  His way through maybe. Maybe.
• 26:15
  Oh no, look, here comes the big laser.
• 26:19
  Oh dear. I read the book, by the way, for
• 26:22
  this in preparation. It's amazing, terrific.
• 26:26
  I loved it. I actually think the book is.
• 26:28
  Better. It is a bit better.
• 26:29
  As much as I love this it is. It does improve it even more.
• 26:32
  Which is did. You know it's because he had the
• 26:35
  script to work for him, right? Did you know it's how they kept
• 26:38
  in because they filmed it? The bit where the Doctor
• 26:40
  regenerates a male bangs on about the plot of Time in the
• 26:43
  Rani. He's setting it up for the Rani
• 26:46
  reveal later on, isn't he? Yeah, that's it.
• 26:48
  Exactly. Exactly.
• 26:50
  Yeah. And again, I think I do, I do
• 26:53
  think his instincts are right. He's setting up, you know, Susan
• 26:57
  Triad, like they mentioned Triad in this episode.
• 26:59
  So he's setting up the the end of the next season, the pantheon
• 27:03
  of the gods that's going to come back in Lux another episode and
• 27:06
  the Devil's Cord and things like that.
• 27:10
  So I think he's still got it in terms of structuring the era.
• 27:15
  I just found the episodes for the next two seasons after
• 27:19
  these. I think these three are pretty
• 27:20
  solid. Yeah.
• 27:22
  So inconsistent, really. I think I've got one run.
• 27:26
  I've got one run of Empire of Death, Joy to the World, and The
• 27:31
  Robot Revolution, and those are my three worst episodes of New
• 27:35
  Who back-to-back. Of new who?
• 27:37
  The whole thing. Wow.
• 27:39
  Those 3. Really, I think yeah, Joy to the
• 27:42
  World is probably my least favorite of the new era.
• 27:44
  Empire of Death was a let down, but there's.
• 27:46
  Really. COVID everyone?
• 27:48
  Oh. God, yeah, but no, I think this
• 27:53
  this era's got a a line up of amazing episodes that can rival
• 27:58
  any era personal. Go on, hit me.
• 28:00
  Well, I mean, I could just list them all really.
• 28:02
  Or most of them. I can get wild blue Yonder.
• 28:04
  This one. Definitely.
• 28:08
  Devil's Chord's very good. I would say it's classic.
• 28:09
  It's very good. Yeah, Go.
• 28:12
  On Boom is a bit of the greatest hits, but he's very good.
• 28:15
  OK, 73 yards. Amazing banger.
• 28:19
  Dot and Bubble X Amazing Lux. That's all right.
• 28:23
  Those those those geeks in the middle man I.
• 28:26
  Just that's that that went on a bit.
• 28:28
  Yeah, yeah, for. That sequence, yeah, Go on.
• 28:32
  The world was pretty good. Lucky Day is great.
• 28:35
  Lucky day is good, yeah. I really enjoyed the
• 28:38
  Interstellar Song Contest. Oh, you're mad?
• 28:43
  Maybe. Are you into the world torturing
• 28:47
  genocide survivors? Then always yeah.
• 28:49
  Oh, great. Are.
• 28:50
  You not. You're not, no.
• 28:52
  Not really the gas chamber some more thing.
• 28:54
  Oh, yeah, of course. Yes.
• 28:55
  Yeah, that's more your style. Yeah.
• 28:56
  Oh. My God, look at tennis.
• 28:59
  So that's ridiculous. Come on now, get him a bigger
• 29:01
  suit. He can only get one button shot.
• 29:04
  Yeah. Oh, no.
• 29:05
  Well, yeah, we've all been there.
• 29:06
  Yeah, Oh, they're so fabulous together, this pair, aren't
• 29:09
  they? Oh, they're Pennant and tight.
• 29:12
  I think it's these two, Trout and Jamie and Zoe and then Tom
• 29:16
  Baker and Monica 9. They're the three best.
• 29:19
  I mean, they're all great picks. They're.
• 29:20
  All my fantastic picks, personally, yeah.
• 29:23
  I mean, I put the first stops Ian, Barbara and Vicky.
• 29:27
  That's pretty strong, pretty strong high.
• 29:29
  One as well. Yeah, yeah.
• 29:31
  OK, the doctor versus the toy maker.
• 29:33
  He still doesn't know yet though, does he?
• 29:35
  Not quite. He's about to realise he's a
• 29:38
  fabulous. Set.
• 29:38
  He's got air of all the toys, so you see the train and the wheel
• 29:41
  going around and everything. Very detailed, Yeah.
• 29:44
  Wonderful lot going on. Do you think?
• 29:48
  What do you think of Neil Patrick House's performance?
• 29:53
  It's I he he really tries. He really tries.
• 29:57
  I can't, I can't, I can't fault him there.
• 29:59
  He really puts the effort in. Yeah, I know.
• 30:01
  I think he's great. I think he's great.
• 30:03
  Obviously, yeah, the accents aren't perfect, but they're not
• 30:05
  meant to be. And they've sort of made the
• 30:07
  racism from the first to a mega story.
• 30:10
  They've they've turned that into a feature rather than a bug in
• 30:13
  this version of the character, which I I think is a good way of
• 30:16
  retconning the bad elements of that last one.
• 30:18
  Indeed quite like that, and well worth doing as well.
• 30:21
  Yes, yes, there's, there's a word auto in there that
• 30:24
  definitely shouldn't be there. But I think, I think, yeah, a
• 30:28
  spectacular performance, really, Yeah.
• 30:29
  I think he's this is not damning him with slight praise.
• 30:33
  I think he's generally better when he's not talking.
• 30:36
  I think the imagery of him dancing in the middle of all the
• 30:39
  chaos in the streets, the bit where he's doing the snow Angel
• 30:43
  in all the red petals is just, that's an incredible visual.
• 30:47
  Yeah, that's great. Yeah.
• 30:49
  Oh, and I do. And I love the sequence where he
• 30:52
  does the puppet show and and mentions every single miserable
• 30:56
  companion exit we've had for the last 10 years.
• 31:00
  Yeah, yeah. The three Moffett ones,
• 31:02
  basically. Let's be honest.
• 31:04
  Yeah. Oh, this would be my worst
• 31:06
  nightmare, this being stuck in all these corridors.
• 31:08
  I mean, it's just like classic who?
• 31:10
  Yeah, because it basically is, and they get to reuse the same
• 31:13
  set over and over as well, you know?
• 31:14
  Donna's being a smart say she goes don't to tell me he's got
• 31:17
  his own TARDIS. This was the choose your own
• 31:21
  adventure bit in the book, wouldn't?
• 31:22
  It, Oh my God. And did you notice how at one
• 31:25
  point it takes you back to an earlier chapter in the book?
• 31:27
  That was genius. And it goes, what is it?
• 31:29
  Oh, what are you doing here? That's the start of the chapter.
• 31:32
  I know. I flipped back and I was like,
• 31:33
  Oh my God, that's what this chapter was for.
• 31:36
  James Goss, man, he is a genius. And there was also a chapter in
• 31:40
  there that you're not meant to find that you can only find by
• 31:42
  by cheating. Did you find that one as well?
• 31:45
  I think I did cheat in the end, actually.
• 31:47
  I just got to the edge of it. Yeah, I'm not very good for
• 31:49
  playing games, if I'm honest. I did do the maze though, which
• 31:52
  was the president's brain. Yeah, that, that was quite easy.
• 31:56
  Yeah, I think the president's got got quite a simple brain.
• 31:58
  So did you read that Lux novelisation?
• 32:01
  No, I read that 10. Boy, it's a bagger.
• 32:04
  It's another great James Goss book.
• 32:06
  Yeah, he can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned.
• 32:09
  Yeah, and you know what he does here?
• 32:11
  He takes all of the characters and he just gives them all
• 32:15
  Great. Especially in the giggle, right?
• 32:17
  Do you remember the whole bit about Kate Stewart and her dad
• 32:20
  and all of that in the giggle? More about that.
• 32:22
  Story I thought that was amazing and do you know what I was so
• 32:25
  impressed he said that her best friend was a a banker in the
• 32:29
  city called Angie. That's how do you Kapoor from
• 32:32
  the books I thought. It might have been, I wasn't
• 32:34
  sure because I haven't read many of the EDA's so but yeah, it
• 32:37
  might have been George and I I think the the back story of Kate
• 32:41
  ties into the scales of injustice as well.
• 32:42
  If if I remember Riley. Really.
• 32:45
  I think, I think it did some way.
• 32:46
  It seemed to line up both of my memories of it, yeah.
• 32:49
  Now, what is all this nonsense about casting salt at the end of
• 32:53
  the universe? Letting the God send?
• 32:55
  What's that about? Because RTD says so, yeah.
• 33:01
  Yeah, but he says so in a way that I can get on board with.
• 33:06
  And personally, I think, you know, the magic is just this
• 33:10
  type of science we don't understand, you know, at the end
• 33:12
  of the day. So I, you know, can I?
• 33:16
  I like it. Can I pull a thread on on
• 33:18
  something that they're doing here?
• 33:20
  And that is, well, obviously they just had that conversation
• 33:24
  on the street where they said to David Tennant's doctor, he's
• 33:27
  very tired. He's never stopped running.
• 33:29
  And all of this. Yeah, it's like suggesting he's
• 33:31
  never at a rest in 15 regenerations.
• 33:35
  Well, we know he has because we've seen him, you know, have
• 33:37
  Kips and things. But anyway, and there's he's
• 33:40
  saying here, I've always got an answer to the, the, the, you
• 33:43
  know, and and she's pointing out how tired he is.
• 33:46
  I think he's been in more extreme situations than this
• 33:49
  where he could have just gone at the end.
• 33:51
  You know what? I'll have a bit of a rest.
• 33:53
  But no, he just keeps on going. Now.
• 33:55
  Is he RCD wanting his cake and eating it?
• 33:58
  He wants a David Tennant Doctor out there that he can pick up
• 34:01
  whenever he wants him, and he wants another Doctor.
• 34:04
  Otherwise, why are we doing by regeneration?
• 34:07
  Well, it might be because he wants to try and wipe the slate
• 34:11
  clean in terms of all the angst the characters had and all the
• 34:13
  all the baggage, but he doesn't. The end of the next season,
• 34:17
  Suitek for Fancy and then it's the Ronnie and Omega.
• 34:21
  I think the attempt was there though, and to go give the, give
• 34:24
  the new Doctor a bit more of a, you know, a fresh start.
• 34:29
  You know, which I think he, I think he's reflected in his
• 34:31
  characterization, the fact that he's supposedly been through
• 34:33
  therapy and all that. I could see that in his, in the,
• 34:36
  the way how open he is and, and all that kind of thing.
• 34:38
  I think that really screams therapy for me.
• 34:41
  The only thing that sort of baffles me about it is I really
• 34:43
  feel like the only reason to do this is to have tenant back at
• 34:49
  some point. Otherwise you could you could
• 34:52
  just regenerate him and say well oh that's it, all the past has
• 34:55
  just been excised or something. Any old excuse.
• 34:58
  The only reason to tear them apart and have two of them is so
• 35:02
  tenants on standby, right? No.
• 35:05
  Yeah, but is that the worst thing in the world though?
• 35:07
  I mean, they, they, they need it for the brand for God's sake,
• 35:10
  so, you know. It'll be back at Christmas.
• 35:13
  Let's be honest. It'll be him and Billy Piper.
• 35:16
  Oh yes. Yeah.
• 35:17
  This is really creepy stuff. This is what do you call it, a
• 35:22
  marionette. A man is a marionette.
• 35:25
  Oh, there, look. You can see the wooden stick
• 35:27
  coming out of his head. Look.
• 35:29
  Yeah, I'm surprised that how, you know, even now with all the
• 35:32
  Disney money and you know, how sort of technology has has
• 35:36
  progressed, it still doesn't look that convincing.
• 35:39
  That's it. I don't.
• 35:40
  Think. Well, yeah, but I don't think it
• 35:42
  kind of needs to because it's quite.
• 35:44
  Yeah, of course, it's quite a silly idea, but like, it looks
• 35:50
  like a head on top of a marionette puppet, like.
• 35:53
  It does, yeah. I don't know.
• 35:55
  It's it's never perfect though, is it?
• 35:57
  I don't know, you'd expect it maybe to have got a bit better,
• 36:00
  but. I think it's just, you know
• 36:02
  what, I always find the the mockery of the humanoid form
• 36:07
  really scary at that sort of judgery movement.
• 36:10
  He's got sort of uncanny valley. Yeah, he.
• 36:13
  Looks very scared, doesn't he? He looks AI in this shot.
• 36:18
  I don't know why it looks like Ian Levine's done this shot
• 36:21
  here. Creative consultant?
• 36:24
  I believe Evolani. Yeah, yeah.
• 36:28
  Oh my God, Tenant looks even worse.
• 36:29
  I thought I was clever. I thought I was oh this is my
• 36:32
  favorite scene in the whole. This is great.
• 36:34
  This is amazing, yeah. Stookie, Sue.
• 36:37
  Yeah, this does look very convincing.
• 36:39
  This was a real puppet that they green screened out the the the
• 36:43
  puppeteer. This this looks really
• 36:45
  convincing. I can remember Mark and I were
• 36:47
  watching this and we grabbed each other's hands when the baby
• 36:50
  started coming down from the ceiling.
• 36:52
  Like look at this puppet. Fucking hell, she's terrifying.
• 36:56
  Yeah. That is a horror movie waiting
• 36:59
  to happen. Yeah, that is pretty scary.
• 37:02
  Poor wee stooky Sue. I lost my oppressors, hubby.
• 37:06
  They threw me in a cuppy. What does Donna say?
• 37:12
  Hello, my name's Donna and you're a goner.
• 37:15
  Or. Something like that, Yeah, I
• 37:18
  have a bit of poetry and Doctor Who.
• 37:20
  I do like a spooky puppet as well.
• 37:22
  It's like a the new troll doll from Terror of the Autons, you
• 37:28
  know? Yeah, yeah.
• 37:30
  Here they come down from the ceiling, these little.
• 37:34
  Dolls. Oh God, that's so scary.
• 37:37
  Don't I kick them in? Come on, are.
• 37:42
  They biting? Are they biting?
• 37:43
  They're biting her fucking shoulders.
• 37:47
  Does she literally throw her head in the wall?
• 37:51
  Yeah, sort of. Smashes, Smashes.
• 37:53
  That's quite. Visceral.
• 37:54
  It looks like she's throwing kids about.
• 37:58
  Now I see why you love this scene.
• 37:59
  There we go. Hello, Suki.
• 38:00
  My name's Donna. Now I think you're a goner.
• 38:03
  Smash. Yes.
• 38:05
  Kill the kids. Oh, sorry.
• 38:10
  Oh, no. Look.
• 38:11
  And then the kids scatter away, don't they?
• 38:13
  Yeah, fair enough. I'd be scared to Donna in this
• 38:15
  moment. It was worth bringing Donna back
• 38:18
  just for that one scene. Can't we have her back again?
• 38:22
  Wasn't she amazing in Wild Blue Yonder?
• 38:25
  She's always amazing. Oh, this thing is wonderful.
• 38:31
  Yeah. I say yeah, Arnold Rimmer rides
• 38:34
  up to the show. Yeah, that's it.
• 38:36
  Yeah, that's the one. Worldwide premiere.
• 38:39
  That was in all the trailers. All the trailers.
• 38:42
  Yeah, here we go. And now let's now let's critique
• 38:45
  them off here. Here we go.
• 38:47
  This is exactly what they would have done in heartless time if
• 38:50
  they'd had the money, right? And the technical yeah, it would
• 38:52
  have been lots of weird imagery like this.
• 38:56
  I think it probably was. I think the fact that it's
• 38:58
  missing is you were we've missed we're lot, we've lost so much
• 39:01
  there even compared to other stories, you know?
• 39:04
  Poor Amy Pond, touched by a Weeping Angel goat.
• 39:08
  Get rid of her, oh wretched woman.
• 39:13
  Who's? Next.
• 39:16
  Who's after? Who's after?
• 39:18
  Oh Clara. Oh God.
• 39:19
  Even worse. Jesus Christ.
• 39:22
  Killed by a bird. Snip snip, snip.
• 39:26
  Am I criticizing all your favourites here?
• 39:28
  No, I mean, I'm no Clara fan, but I think The thing is, you
• 39:33
  know, I, I was a teenager during the Moffett era for a lot of it
• 39:35
  anyway, so Karen Gibb and. Jenna, Carmen.
• 39:38
  Well, well, they were a key part of my coming of age, shall we
• 39:41
  say. That shot up her skirt in the
• 39:43
  11th hour you were paying. I don't know what you're talking
• 39:46
  about. No, I don't.
• 39:47
  Right. Yeah.
• 39:48
  Yeah, Oh. My God, look at the flux when it
• 39:50
  comes down, all the all the moons with faces.
• 39:54
  I had to be. I love the fact that despite the
• 39:58
  fact that it was divisive, he took all the plot elements from
• 40:02
  the Chibnu era and he ran with them.
• 40:04
  I really loved that. Really, really commendable.
• 40:06
  Yeah, he could have very easily just sort of brushed over them
• 40:09
  or just like either ignore them or Recon them or something.
• 40:12
  But the fact he went, no, let's take that, take the positives
• 40:14
  out and build on it. That that's the sign of a good
• 40:16
  showrunner. Because other ones don't What
• 40:18
  some some showrunners, I'm not going to name names, but they
• 40:21
  when something doesn't work, they talk, try and pretend it
• 40:23
  doesn't happen and and I find that really unsatisfying.
• 40:27
  Whereas RTD doesn't he builds on it and improves it and sort of
• 40:30
  retroactively makes it better. I really.
• 40:32
  Appreciate it. I mean, he's got Moffitt right
• 40:34
  in scripts, right? So he doesn't really need to to
• 40:37
  take anything from Moffitt's era, because Moffitt's going to
• 40:39
  put his stamp on RTD 2 himself kind of badly, but do it.
• 40:44
  Whereas bringing in the Doctor, being an orphan and and
• 40:48
  empathising with Ruby, that was savvy.
• 40:51
  And just the fact that he's holding on through this angst
• 40:54
  about half the universe being watched out by the Flux.
• 40:56
  Because as much as I fucking love the Flux season, we really
• 41:01
  didn't deal with the ramifications of what that
• 41:04
  means. Absolutely not.
• 41:05
  No, no, I completely agree. Yeah.
• 41:07
  It's sort of it's it's it was overdue to sort of reflect on
• 41:10
  that. Definitely, yeah.
• 41:12
  What made me laugh was when when RCD was talking about, you know,
• 41:18
  continuing the Timeless Child arc.
• 41:19
  And he goes, well, yeah, well, you know, not, not the Timeless
• 41:21
  child, just that he's an orphan. Like, what does a timeless child
• 41:24
  be? That means nothing to anything.
• 41:25
  That's science fiction guppies. That means nothing.
• 41:27
  Nobody can relate to that. So I thought, oh, wow, OK, so
• 41:31
  he's really going to take the show back into and then we're
• 41:34
  what the fuck does Omega mean to anybody?
• 41:37
  What the fuck does the Rani mean to anybody and Sue Tech and all
• 41:40
  of that? Yeah, he kind of got a bit lost
• 41:43
  in the whole always all on iPlayer.
• 41:46
  Let's just play with all that stuff without giving it much
• 41:49
  meaning, unfortunately. But.
• 41:51
  What I hear, from what I hear, nobody could say no to him.
• 41:56
  So whatever will he had, he wrote.
• 41:59
  And I think even the people that said no to him in his first era,
• 42:02
  and they did, you know, there were things that were vetoed in
• 42:05
  his first era. I just think he was allowed to
• 42:07
  write. He done the deal and he was
• 42:09
  allowed to write what he wanted. Be fair.
• 42:13
  It makes sense though. I can't.
• 42:14
  You know you would let him in, but really?
• 42:17
  Wow, I think you would, but. I mean, not now, but look what
• 42:20
  we got. Yeah, I know.
• 42:21
  Yeah, in retrospect, you shouldn't have done, but.
• 42:23
  You can't honestly be telling me you think Empire of Death and
• 42:26
  the The Reality War are two of the more successful season
• 42:29
  finales. No, but they're they were never
• 42:32
  intended to be like that. They were a victim of early cast
• 42:36
  departures and every rewrites completely changing where they
• 42:40
  ended up, which so I'm a lot more forgiving of those two
• 42:42
  episodes than a lot of people would be.
• 42:44
  Hang on, that is his fault as well.
• 42:46
  He cast those people that. Well.
• 42:49
  That those people had to depart, which means he has to fix those
• 42:53
  problems he's made for himself. You RTD apologist, you.
• 43:00
  I know I'm pathetic and I really.
• 43:02
  I forgot. No no no no.
• 43:04
  RTD 1 is my favorite era of Doctor Who.
• 43:05
  I think he's an incredible writer.
• 43:08
  I think at this point he's just bought into his own myth a bit
• 43:10
  too much. Yeah, easily done though.
• 43:13
  Easily done. I completely.
• 43:15
  Listen to hamster these days, it's nothing but self indulgent.
• 43:19
  Oh, yeah. Tell me about it.
• 43:21
  No, but I think, what was I going to say?
• 43:25
  Yeah, No, I think casting, shooting Milly, he he, I think
• 43:30
  he just sort of turned a blind eye.
• 43:32
  He didn't want to confront the reality of they might not be the
• 43:35
  best people to in charge of a set kind of thing.
• 43:39
  He might. I can sort of see the thinking
• 43:41
  behind it. He sort of well, you know, the
• 43:44
  end products what counts. So let's just kind of, you know,
• 43:47
  hope he doesn't go too bad. And then it went really badly,
• 43:50
  unfortunately really backfired on him.
• 43:52
  So I do feel sorry from a little bit on.
• 43:54
  That point where their behaviour was so bad they had to be
• 43:56
  separated for most of that second season.
• 43:59
  I know like. That's just and you can see how
• 44:02
  little time they get together. She just vanishes in the Reality
• 44:05
  War Ruby. Yeah, I know.
• 44:08
  I I've I also feel sorry for Millie Gibson because by the
• 44:12
  sounds of it, she was just easily influenced and wasn't
• 44:15
  wouldn't have been like that otherwise it.
• 44:17
  Wasn't well. Her two episodes, 73 Yards and
• 44:21
  Lucky Day are my 2 favourites of Shooty's time.
• 44:23
  Yeah, they're up there. And it's not because Shooty's
• 44:26
  not in it, because I think Shooty can deliver great work.
• 44:28
  The end of Doctor is extraordinary.
• 44:31
  It's because I think Millie is so good and on her own, she just
• 44:35
  raises that game. Yeah, 100%.
• 44:39
  Yeah. I think it's a massive shame how
• 44:40
  it all turned out, but I, I, I, so I struggled to blame RTD for,
• 44:45
  is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I think I could have been
• 44:48
  avoided. I completely blame RTD for all
• 44:50
  of those. Decisions and.
• 44:52
  I I genuinely think as well, a bit like Moffett and Jenna
• 44:57
  Coleman. I think RTD was really into
• 45:02
  Shooty Gatwa. There's so much sycophantic
• 45:05
  dialogue about Shooty Gatwas Doctor, about how pretty he is,
• 45:09
  how wonderful he is, and fucking by the end of it, even Jodie
• 45:13
  Whittaker's going, oh, you're so pretty.
• 45:15
  I'm like, for fuck sake, we get the point.
• 45:17
  He's a pretty guy. Even in his first scene, he's in
• 45:20
  his pants. Yeah, yeah.
• 45:22
  Wow. I like doing this.
• 45:24
  Honestly. No, of course not, No.
• 45:27
  Sorry, I'm being mean, so can I say something complementary?
• 45:30
  Go for it, yeah. This sequence now where he comes
• 45:34
  in and they do the whole sequence with the Spice Girls
• 45:37
  number, people turning into balls and things like that.
• 45:39
  The amount of money that has gone into this sequence, the
• 45:42
  editing, the special effects, how much that music would have
• 45:46
  cost. Yeah, absolutely.
• 45:49
  I think this is glorious. It's extraordinarily the the
• 45:52
  visual of the petals coming out of the guns and everything
• 45:55
  beautiful. I, I, I think the edit in, I
• 45:58
  think there's a shot in a, in a SEC, I can't remember where you,
• 46:01
  there's multiple toy makers. They sort of pan across the room
• 46:03
  this shot that I think that's just so well crafted.
• 46:08
  And I think the master wishes he was this charismatic as well.
• 46:11
  I think personally, I think this is as yeah, amazing.
• 46:15
  Yes, Tom's going straight into the wall bulk.
• 46:18
  Yes. Oh no, not meal.
• 46:21
  Come. On now.
• 46:21
  No, don't know. Leave me out.
• 46:23
  Oh, Bonnie, no, she does that bread.
• 46:24
  In me, obviously she's like, I've been pirouetting all my
• 46:27
  life. Yeah, I can do this.
• 46:30
  This bit where they turn into the balls and there's a ball was
• 46:33
  in her hand with a screaming face in it.
• 46:36
  That's great. Do you remember that in the
• 46:38
  book? Yeah, yeah.
• 46:40
  They, what was it again? They Yeah, that they went, oh,
• 46:43
  it was like describing them as people and then and then all
• 46:45
  that was gone. They were just balls or
• 46:47
  something like that. Yeah, it was so creepy.
• 46:49
  Really well written. This, this corridor
• 46:52
  cinematography with the petals is beautiful.
• 46:56
  This is so so this is what I was expecting.
• 46:59
  This, this set piece is what I was expecting from our shootings
• 47:03
  era. All much more of this.
• 47:06
  We've got, we've got a bit of this.
• 47:08
  We've like Maestro and. We've got space babies.
• 47:13
  I really like space babies. I can't.
• 47:15
  Fuck. It it's an absurd it's.
• 47:17
  Hardly a Doctor Who classic, is it?
• 47:21
  But does does every episode need to be?
• 47:22
  Although then again this but the first episode of a new look at
• 47:25
  the seasons launching new era. The Flux, either the Daleks and
• 47:29
  Power of the Doctor. I mean, they're almost all
• 47:31
  classics there. Yeah, no.
• 47:33
  Oh, you're agreeing with me? Oh, 100%.
• 47:35
  Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, all those is great.
• 47:38
  Just shame, legends, the Sea Devils in the middle, yeah,
• 47:40
  letting the whole thing down. But apart from that, yeah, yeah.
• 47:43
  Just have that lovely scene of the TARDIS underwater.
• 47:46
  Do you remember? Yeah, that was very pretty.
• 47:48
  I'm not such a bad date, am I? Yeah.
• 47:55
  So is this where it falls apart for you, this scene?
• 47:57
  Yes, right. Yeah, But one is that I just
• 48:00
  don't get the logic of like, oh, I'm going to shoot you because
• 48:03
  what is it? I did my first game with the
• 48:07
  first Doctor and the second game with the 14th Doctor, so now I'm
• 48:14
  going to have the third game with the 15th.
• 48:16
  Why? I think he's just enjoying being
• 48:19
  a Dick. I mean, he's got that sort of
• 48:21
  impish charm about him that I can relate to actually quite
• 48:24
  strongly, to be honest. That kind of just.
• 48:28
  That. Right.
• 48:29
  That's how humble I know, I know it's fun.
• 48:34
  It's fun, but just being a bit of a shit sometimes, you know?
• 48:36
  So I I I get that. I'll tell you another thing as
• 48:39
  well is I watch too much of the confidential at this point and
• 48:44
  where you can see that this is all just an artificial set.
• 48:49
  Sometimes you shouldn't see all that behind the scenes stuff
• 48:52
  because now I'm just like, well, yeah, there's no city escape
• 48:54
  behind them. It's just a.
• 48:56
  Green screen and all that, yeah. Although really some of the CGI
• 49:01
  in RTD too is so bad I can tell it's green screen it's.
• 49:03
  Surprising, isn't it? Yeah, some of it, but.
• 49:07
  Nothing. Nothing will be as bad as that
• 49:09
  green screen in the robot revolution.
• 49:11
  Oh boy. I don't think it'd be in that
• 49:14
  bad. Was it or Pastel?
• 49:16
  Colours, people. Are we like, look at that
• 49:18
  episodes that kind of 50s retro feel?
• 49:22
  No, that's what it should have looked like.
• 49:24
  All right. But it looked like sort of a
• 49:26
  bubble gum version of that. Oh, sorry.
• 49:28
  It's all. Right you.
• 49:31
  Can dislike if you like. He's got quite a big gun,
• 49:35
  doesn't he there? Yeah, he he does.
• 49:38
  You have a 5. A gun as big as that.
• 49:41
  Oh, every night before I go to sleep.
• 49:43
  Oh, grief, really. You're talking about in half of
• 49:46
  it. One day or two, yes.
• 49:52
  Once we've finished recording, yeah.
• 49:54
  I have fallen in love with humanity.
• 49:57
  The world is my ultimate playground.
• 49:59
  Now let's play a game of catch. Again, I I think this is
• 50:03
  perfectly in keeping, you know, bringing a massive thing, so
• 50:05
  small scale. Expecting something clever and
• 50:09
  it is very simple. But I think the fact that
• 50:12
  because it was it was supposed to be a game of catch between
• 50:14
  like like a sort of one versus one game of catch.
• 50:17
  But the the by generation is is the twist on the game of catch.
• 50:21
  The fact that there's now two against one of that.
• 50:23
  That's that's the clever bit, I think.
• 50:25
  Why is it we've never heard of by generation before in all of
• 50:28
  these years of Doctor Who? Because it was a myth, it was
• 50:32
  just, and it'd never been thought of in real life, so
• 50:35
  therefore it never appeared. Why is it now one person is by
• 50:39
  generated and Doctor Who? Now everyone seems to do it.
• 50:44
  He's he's a trendsetter, the doctor, I think.
• 50:47
  I mean, to be fair, he doesn't by generate the end of the
• 50:49
  reality war into Billie Piper. So he's not.
• 50:51
  We don't know what's happening there, do we?
• 50:53
  Well, no, but what it? Might be a by generation for all
• 50:56
  you know. Why?
• 50:57
  Why they're not bringing shoot you that though, aren't they?
• 50:58
  So that's not happening. So it can't be.
• 51:01
  It's true. But dear, that laser went
• 51:04
  straight through him. Yeah.
• 51:06
  He's going now. I know how Bill Potts felt with
• 51:09
  that big hole in her. Exactly.
• 51:12
  Yeah, yeah. You don't really see a big hole
• 51:13
  in the doctor here, do you? No, But I, I don't mind the BI
• 51:17
  generation though. I think it's a it as a little as
• 51:19
  a, as a fresh way of doing it, a way to do a different sort of
• 51:23
  handover between doctors. I think it's quite an
• 51:25
  interesting change. Personally.
• 51:26
  I don't get what all the all the moanings about.
• 51:29
  Oh, well, let me explain to you then.
• 51:32
  No, I see. I don't mind doing a shift on
• 51:35
  things and changing things. Yeah, I I think that's that is
• 51:39
  good to innovate. I just think the very nature of
• 51:42
  of two of the doctor's best friends pulling him open like a
• 51:45
  Christmas cracker is just fucking weird.
• 51:50
  I like weird. I am weird.
• 51:52
  I love it. I'm no, I'm I'm on board with
• 51:55
  that. I.
• 51:55
  Think I don't care about rules being broken, I just think it's
• 51:58
  stupid. Well, and.
• 52:02
  Then it's so cheap, you get David Tennant this side, and GAT
• 52:06
  was clearly behind him that side going, oh, hello, it's great.
• 52:10
  Do you remember in the book when the pages go up, the words go up
• 52:15
  the page either side and it's not well?
• 52:17
  Formatted, yeah. No, I mean how else could they
• 52:20
  have done it though really apart from this?
• 52:21
  Well, they could have just regenerated him.
• 52:23
  We'd had to shoot to get well for the rest of the episode.
• 52:26
  Yeah, I I'd quite like having one Doctor literally handing
• 52:29
  over the keys to the TARDIS to the next one.
• 52:32
  I quite like that. As an interesting take on, you
• 52:35
  know, the regeneration. I like that.
• 52:38
  I just don't get why he's so tired now.
• 52:41
  I don't think he's been up to anything lately that's.
• 52:43
  Been no, he's really stressful. I'm out of nowhere.
• 52:46
  I think it it helps that Jodie's Doctor was very closed off
• 52:49
  emotionally so that you could sort of wreck on it and say
• 52:52
  there was a lot she wasn't saying and this, this, it was
• 52:56
  like, it's only coming out now that we've got more.
• 52:58
  Wouldn't be having none of this retiring and living with Donna's
• 53:02
  back garden. She'd be going.
• 53:03
  No. Come on.
• 53:04
  I'm going on adventures with you.
• 53:06
  Let's go. Yeah, I mean, she literally just
• 53:08
  dumped Yas because she didn't, you know, for.
• 53:11
  So she got to settle down with Yas, really.
• 53:14
  But I don't know, I suppose she just didn't have the wherewithal
• 53:16
  to just want to settle down just yet, whereas this doctor's a lot
• 53:19
  more open to that kind of idea. I don't know.
• 53:23
  It is interesting as well. I was really watching shoot his
• 53:25
  performance for the rest of this episode and it's not really what
• 53:30
  he said was on. Do not think.
• 53:32
  I think I thought he was quite subdued actually in the last
• 53:35
  half of this. He wasn't really owning the show
• 53:38
  because he's still sharing the screen with David Tennant.
• 53:42
  And he's still making sex education at this point.
• 53:44
  I think he's just had a lot of day off of that and he's coming
• 53:45
  for this or. Something as soon as he's in his
• 53:47
  own season, he's like classy. He's not.
• 53:52
  He's not quite like that. Yeah, that is true, Yeah.
• 53:54
  And I do love the bit where he gives tenant a hug and says come
• 53:58
  here I've got you. But that's very weird when you
• 54:01
  think it's the same person. Yeah, that's again, quite
• 54:05
  symbolic of of of a therapy doctors coming to his parcel and
• 54:09
  going you know what, you're right, don't worry about it.
• 54:11
  You know, that's, that's that's what it's all about.
• 54:13
  Maybe it's me as a counsellor. I'm just saying all these
• 54:15
  things, but. As a as a, as a human being and
• 54:19
  a gay man, yeah, If I sort of split apart from myself, I
• 54:22
  wouldn't be hugging myself. I'll be on my knees.
• 54:25
  I I'll bet you would. Yeah, absolutely.
• 54:29
  Yeah. I mean, look at this.
• 54:31
  Of course RTD had him in his pants in long shot in his first
• 54:35
  episode, for God's sake. Yeah, I mean, I mean, what's the
• 54:41
  alternative though? They could have had one trouser
• 54:43
  like each. One hand on the keyboard and one
• 54:45
  hand in his pants. I'm sure when he was right in
• 54:48
  this. Yeah, fair enough though.
• 54:53
  Well, you know, we're starting to see a lot of female flesh in
• 54:55
  Doctor Who. It's about time we'll see some
• 54:57
  male flesh. And you know what?
• 54:58
  Gama is just beautiful. He is a beautiful.
• 55:01
  Beautiful he is. Even I can recognise that he
• 55:04
  definitely is. But you know, kindly a bit of a
• 55:09
  come. Oh, completely.
• 55:11
  Yeah, Yeah. Genuinely think if the person
• 55:16
  who is front running the show can't do what Tennant did, what
• 55:21
  Jodie did, what Capaldi did, which is hold the set together
• 55:26
  with the strength of a a very kind, very giving personality
• 55:33
  and doesn't want to engage with the show writ large and all the
• 55:36
  extracurricular activities, that person is not suitable for the
• 55:40
  role no matter how good an actor they are.
• 55:43
  No, I agree. I I think I I'd imagine Russell
• 55:46
  was learnt his lessons from this.
• 55:48
  Oh, I hope so anyway. It's a brand role now.
• 55:51
  It's not just an acting role. No, I think, I think he was
• 55:54
  looking at he what what he could bring to the role and his arse
• 55:58
  as well. I think, I think those two
• 56:00
  things sort of clouded everything else.
• 56:01
  And I think he did bring a lot to the role as an actor.
• 56:03
  I think I really do like, I think I think he's got a very
• 56:06
  detailed performance and I think and he's a very fresh take on
• 56:08
  the character. But yeah, it's just a shame that
• 56:10
  other parts of him didn't, you know, wasn't appropriate,
• 56:15
  really. I, I just don't get the Doctor
• 56:19
  half the time I don't, I don't get what Dylan say, that sort of
• 56:24
  Doctorish energy. I just don't get it.
• 56:26
  I feel like he's just a hot guy from the street who's traveling
• 56:31
  around in the TARDIS. And actually, if I'm perfectly
• 56:34
  honest, as my first black Doctor, and boy, we were overdue
• 56:40
  a black Doctor. We were overdue a Black Doctor
• 56:42
  10 regenerations back. If I'd done that in classic Who,
• 56:46
  it would have been just amazing. I would have liked to have seen
• 56:51
  the roof Doctor as a full incarnation.
• 56:54
  I think she would have been pretty extraordinary.
• 56:57
  Yeah. But you know, that's not what
• 57:00
  happened. Oh, no.
• 57:01
  You dropped a ball. Well, I guess that's the episode
• 57:03
  over with. Yep, story over.
• 57:06
  And that's that done right, Our three favorite things, No.
• 57:14
  Best of three. No, no, no, no.
• 57:19
  OK. Also, I suppose in the celestial
• 57:20
  time. OK.
• 57:21
  He does say, doesn't he, That, you know, I play by the rules,
• 57:24
  So if I lose, because that's why his whole sort of domain
• 57:28
  vanishes in that story. Yeah, exactly.
• 57:31
  Yeah, it will. It will.
• 57:32
  It all lines up. It all lines up.
• 57:33
  There's it's a very. Strange special effect isn't it?
• 57:37
  As he sort of folds up into a box in you go.
• 57:41
  Are we trying to suggest that he's 2 dimensional?
• 57:49
  I I wouldn't say that. I think a lot of people would,
• 57:51
  but not me. Yeah.
• 57:52
  Oh. I see everything's gone back to
• 57:55
  normal now. OK, John.
• 57:56
  Loki Bear can create the first television.
• 57:59
  The waveform has turned off. Well done, Russell.
• 58:02
  You've ticked off every box by putting the Celestial Toy Maker
• 58:07
  in a box. And also, what a great way to
• 58:10
  celebrate 60 years of Doctor Who by going back to the beginning
• 58:13
  of television. And if that wouldn't have
• 58:15
  happened, then Doctor Who wouldn't have happened.
• 58:17
  You know, it's all all ties in as well.
• 58:18
  There is that angle as well. But I do.
• 58:20
  I think Russell feels felt like he hadn't celebrated.
• 58:24
  Yeah. That's why he did Tales for the
• 58:26
  TARDIS. Exactly.
• 58:28
  Yeah. Have we done enough?
• 58:30
  Beat the MEEP Lieutenant and Tate at the Celestial Toy Maker.
• 58:34
  And we haven't done enough. That's enough for me to be
• 58:37
  honest. But yeah, that that is just me,
• 58:39
  though. Again.
• 58:41
  Yeah. I mean, there's all the
• 58:42
  speculation going into this, though.
• 58:43
  I thought for sure it was going to prop up and things like that.
• 58:45
  Oh. God, I did a whole speculation
• 58:47
  episode with Dylan Reece. I remember.
• 58:49
  None of it came true. No.
• 58:52
  They had massive ambitions for Wild Blue Yonder being all old
• 58:56
  sets from Classic. And I did as well, to be honest.
• 58:59
  I mean, I still loved it. You know what we did end up
• 59:01
  with? But yeah.
• 59:02
  Look at this, the gold tooth. Someone picks it up.
• 59:05
  That's the sound of drums lost at the Time, Lord.
• 59:07
  That is literally the same thing again.
• 59:09
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this bloody console room do.
• 59:14
  You not like it? I think it's too big.
• 59:17
  I think it's too big and it's not full of enough stuff.
• 59:20
  So it just feels like a a space without a personality.
• 59:26
  I think, yeah, they could have maybe built up more things sort
• 59:29
  of added to it as they went along, maybe a bit more.
• 59:31
  But I, I don't mind it. I it does look great.
• 59:34
  Why do we need that much space? So I can only think of one time
• 59:38
  when it was actually used when they went off to get clothes in
• 59:40
  the devil's court. Yeah, just to make it feel.
• 59:45
  Because why? Why would the TARDIS be small?
• 59:48
  It's it's basically infinite. Why?
• 59:49
  Why would it be a small room? But it felt massive, like in
• 59:53
  Jodie's time, it felt massive in Capaldi's time.
• 59:55
  But it had personality to it then.
• 59:59
  Now it's just an empty white room with a jukebox.
• 1:00:02
  I love the coloured lights though, that's great.
• 1:00:04
  I've got a similar set up in my bedroom actually.
• 1:00:07
  I've got a colour changing light bulb.
• 1:00:09
  You listen to us, ladies. All right, start playing the
• 1:00:12
  music. The lights will go.
• 1:00:15
  Oh, if only ladies have seen it. This.
• 1:00:18
  Fuck this shit. All of this bloody continuity.
• 1:00:21
  Sarah Jane Mavic Chen, Adric Lagopoulos.
• 1:00:25
  What does this mean to anyone watching this?
• 1:00:29
  I know. I mean, Can you imagine Mavic
• 1:00:30
  Chen being relevant in the 20 twenties?
• 1:00:32
  When did that ever happen? You know, never.
• 1:00:35
  It's just so weird. We thought the gods of Ragnarok,
• 1:00:37
  what are you talking about? You can't diss the Timeless
• 1:00:41
  Child and then start regurgitating continuity from
• 1:00:44
  the program guide. Yeah, yeah, he's a bit.
• 1:00:47
  So bizarre so. But I mean, it's as bizarre as
• 1:00:52
  that sequence at the start of the star base where he
• 1:00:54
  regurgitates the plot of Journeys end to.
• 1:00:58
  Be fair though, I mean if, if if you've not seen Doctor Eve
• 1:01:01
  before and you tune into Starbase, you'd be completely
• 1:01:03
  lost. I mean, you probably would be,
• 1:01:04
  probably still are anyway, but it was needed some kind of
• 1:01:07
  recap. But they should have thought of
• 1:01:09
  that before they made it. Really though, shouldn't they?
• 1:01:11
  I think the 60th was probably a mistake overall.
• 1:01:14
  As great as it was to launch a new era, I think that was the
• 1:01:17
  worst thing they could have done really.
• 1:01:19
  And it was most was it? It was because Shooty wasn't
• 1:01:22
  ready, right? It was filled with movies and a
• 1:01:24
  sex education. Well, I think it was partly that
• 1:01:26
  and but they want, they decided to do the 60th 1st and then the
• 1:01:30
  rest of it come afterwards. I believe so.
• 1:01:33
  I think, yeah, I think if, if they'd have thought about it
• 1:01:36
  properly or if they plan to do more from the beginning, I don't
• 1:01:39
  think they would have done it. What's unfortunate is they bring
• 1:01:42
  in Tennant and Tate for the reason that they are enormously
• 1:01:46
  popular and they're so good in these three episodes, like
• 1:01:51
  extraordinarily good. And then obviously then you've
• 1:01:55
  got Shootie and Millie and they're good.
• 1:01:59
  They're not as good as as Tenet and Tay, they're not as vital
• 1:02:04
  and as alive and as funny, and their chemistry isn't as good.
• 1:02:07
  And so it's just crazy to have this like little interlude with
• 1:02:12
  two amazing characters and then have an era with slightly lesser
• 1:02:17
  characters. Yeah, that is, yeah.
• 1:02:19
  Again, in retrospect, yeah. That's not not the best, is it?
• 1:02:22
  Really? No.
• 1:02:24
  I see what I see what Doctor Who had kind of gone down a plug
• 1:02:28
  hole in terms of ratings and things.
• 1:02:29
  And the female doctor was divisive.
• 1:02:32
  And so they he wanted to bring back all these elements that
• 1:02:35
  were really popular and get it back into public consciousness.
• 1:02:38
  And I think these episodes scored 7 to 8 million.
• 1:02:41
  They scored really well. And then it flatlined, didn't
• 1:02:46
  it? It did.
• 1:02:46
  Yeah. Unfo how?
• 1:02:47
  What is what happened? Well, I, I don't, I think one of
• 1:02:52
  the, I think one of the big mistakes of this era really was
• 1:02:54
  doing the 60th followed by Christmas.
• 1:02:57
  I think that was a, a, a crucial mistake in terms of lot, the
• 1:03:01
  momentum of, you know, getting people on board as well as
• 1:03:04
  starting with all the continuity here.
• 1:03:06
  And, and I think also the triple whammy at the beginning of
• 1:03:09
  shootings era of church and Ruby Rd. space babies and devil
• 1:03:12
  record. I like 2 out of three of those
• 1:03:13
  episodes, but I can see those being extremely off putting to a
• 1:03:16
  lot of people which I so I think that was also a big mistake as
• 1:03:20
  well. I think it's darker than that, I
• 1:03:23
  think, and it sickens me to the stomach to say this.
• 1:03:27
  I think people didn't want a black gay Doctor Who.
• 1:03:33
  Some people, yeah, definitely. Well, 5252% of this country are
• 1:03:37
  racist to, to the EU. Like I, I, I genuinely think
• 1:03:42
  we're in a tricky place with television right now.
• 1:03:45
  Look at Star Star Trek Academy, which has just been cancelled
• 1:03:49
  and was the most progressive Star Trek show of all.
• 1:03:52
  And it had a massive hate campaign against it.
• 1:03:55
  You know, that it had gone woke and all of this, and they've
• 1:03:57
  cancelled it. Just like they kind of stopped
• 1:04:00
  making Doctor Who. And it's so sad because, I mean,
• 1:04:04
  I don't really want the Doctor to be gay.
• 1:04:06
  I don't really want the Doctor to be sexual at all.
• 1:04:10
  But I was so pleased they cast a black actor.
• 1:04:13
  Oh yeah, long overdue completely.
• 1:04:15
  Yeah. I mean, I, I can't imagine.
• 1:04:18
  I mean, yeah, obviously, yeah, they're 52% of people.
• 1:04:21
  Yeah, there there is that statistic.
• 1:04:22
  I can't imagine a lot of people just going.
• 1:04:24
  I'm flat out not going to watch it.
• 1:04:25
  I know that was some people did. But I, I I.
• 1:04:28
  Don't know. Not not enough.
• 1:04:29
  You've got more. Faith in this country than I.
• 1:04:31
  Do I do not enough to like half the ratings from like 7 million
• 1:04:34
  here to three? I live in a very conservative
• 1:04:37
  town and I hear. I do as well.
• 1:04:39
  Daily basis, I do, and I genuinely think people will just
• 1:04:42
  go now. I'm not watching that.
• 1:04:44
  Especially, you know, when he ends up snogging Jonathan Groff
• 1:04:47
  in an episode as well. Yeah, well, I've found that.
• 1:04:50
  I've put it then. I'm not racist, but there you
• 1:04:51
  go. Just because I had no fucking
• 1:04:54
  chemistry, that's. Oh my God, yeah.
• 1:04:57
  Boring, that man Really dull. What's his name?
• 1:04:59
  Really Dull Rogue. Rogue.
• 1:05:01
  Yeah, it was it. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:03
  Subtle. Yeah.
• 1:05:05
  Yeah, and I, I remember coming away from this episode so
• 1:05:09
  excited. I'm thinking, Oh my God, we've
• 1:05:11
  got a funny, hot, charismatic new Doctor.
• 1:05:17
  All right, I'll get over the size of the TARDIS.
• 1:05:19
  That's fine. We're going to come and have
• 1:05:21
  great adventures. I've heard wonderful things
• 1:05:23
  about this Davina McCall lit Christmas special that was here
• 1:05:28
  with a song in it and everything.
• 1:05:29
  I thought great, Disney, we're going to start doing musical
• 1:05:31
  Doctor Who and all of this. So excited for it.
• 1:05:35
  And I did. I did have a pretty good run
• 1:05:38
  with that first season. That second season just lost me
• 1:05:42
  completely. Really I'm I'm not seeing a big
• 1:05:45
  difference between the two really.
• 1:05:46
  They're both of a piece to me. Oh God, I just did you find
• 1:05:50
  Belinda Chandra the most boring character?
• 1:05:53
  No, honestly, no. She.
• 1:05:55
  Didn't do nothing did. She oh, no, no, she didn't do
• 1:05:58
  that. No, she was a very late edition,
• 1:05:59
  obviously. So that's that.
• 1:06:00
  Obviously didn't help, but no, I thought.
• 1:06:02
  Now. I quite liked her.
• 1:06:04
  This is a lovely scene. It's beauty.
• 1:06:06
  This is R2-DA's best. He's got everyone in the garden
• 1:06:10
  making jokes, establishing the Doctor in this new setting.
• 1:06:15
  But it's just so weird to think that, you know, this is the man
• 1:06:19
  who who, you know, went and and took, you know, fought with
• 1:06:23
  Barbara Wright at the Aztecs and stopped the Time Destructor from
• 1:06:27
  destroying the universe. This is the man who took on the
• 1:06:31
  Yetis in the underground. And now he's just, you know
• 1:06:34
  what? I'm just going to retire now.
• 1:06:37
  Well, we had to have to say he's like what, 2000 odd years old?
• 1:06:40
  It's kind of thing. It's kind of like you've got to
• 1:06:42
  have a sit down at some point. Then again, as you say, he was
• 1:06:45
  on transil law for 800 years and in prison for a few decades.
• 1:06:49
  And yeah, actually, yeah. It doesn't make any sense at all
• 1:06:52
  really, does it? Now think about it.
• 1:06:54
  No, no. I mean, Douglas Adams wanted to
• 1:06:57
  do the story, didn't he, where the doctor retired and he.
• 1:07:01
  Yeah, saving and and Graham Williams went, no, we're not
• 1:07:05
  doing that. And he waited so long saying
• 1:07:08
  that's the one I'm going to write, that that's why he had to
• 1:07:10
  rush Sharder because he thought Graham Williams was going to
• 1:07:13
  give in because it was getting close to the deadline and he
• 1:07:15
  never did. I think if, if you are going to
• 1:07:18
  do it though, it makes sense to do it.
• 1:07:19
  A big anniversary like this, it's a sort of milestone as a
• 1:07:22
  kind of like, like this is a, this is a full stop and then
• 1:07:24
  we're going to carry on with a fresh take afterwards.
• 1:07:27
  So I think this is a good time to do it.
• 1:07:29
  Is there a duller character in Doctor Who than Rose Noble?
• 1:07:36
  Colonel Abraham, possibly. Yeah, there's a few of these.
• 1:07:45
  I just, I don't understand, right?
• 1:07:47
  By all means, bring in wonderful trans characters into Doctor
• 1:07:51
  Who. Finished.
• 1:07:51
  Big Finished certainly did it, and they did it brilliantly.
• 1:07:55
  But Jesus Christ, man, give her something to do.
• 1:07:58
  Yeah, she really had nothing, did she?
• 1:08:00
  Not at all. When Sue Tech was attacking and
• 1:08:03
  everyone was firing their guns and she's just there with an
• 1:08:05
  iPad. Yeah, complete waste of the
• 1:08:10
  character, really. But then I feel the same about
• 1:08:12
  Shirley. Like, why?
• 1:08:14
  Why introduce that disabled access into the TARDIS if she's
• 1:08:18
  never going to go into the TARDIS?
• 1:08:21
  Yeah, or, or anyone else for that matter.
• 1:08:23
  Yeah. It feels, it does feel like box
• 1:08:26
  sticking. It probably isn't, but it feels
• 1:08:28
  like it. Well, it what it what it well, I
• 1:08:31
  don't know if you know something.
• 1:08:32
  There was a, there's a YouTube called Tharis who is disabled
• 1:08:35
  and RTD watched his videos saying, Oh, there was no, I was
• 1:08:38
  wondering if I could get into the TARDIS, you know, with with
• 1:08:41
  a little step bit. And he went, no, we're OK, we
• 1:08:43
  need to do that then. So that's why it was done.
• 1:08:46
  But it's showing it was never followed up and done more with,
• 1:08:48
  you know. She went into the TARDIS in as
• 1:08:51
  he be, you know, with the 6th Doctor all round the universe.
• 1:08:55
  Yeah, well, yeah, we've still got Christmas special to go, and
• 1:08:59
  you never know. It's the idea then with all
• 1:09:01
  these lights and the TARDIS is like one big jukebox, you know,
• 1:09:04
  sort of flashing. Yeah, give me sort of, Yeah.
• 1:09:06
  Like mood lighting kind of reflects something going on.
• 1:09:08
  I mean, maybe. There should be like music
• 1:09:10
  playing all the time there. You know the lights are
• 1:09:14
  flashing. Yeah, something like that, yeah.
• 1:09:18
  Yeah. Oh my God, What's this donation?
• 1:09:20
  Christmas. What's that?
• 1:09:23
  Well, well, a shit tease for the Christmas special, I assume.
• 1:09:26
  Oh, it's not the, not the. What's it called the the Scaro 1
• 1:09:31
  is it? No, that's they're just saying
• 1:09:34
  that we. Had that already.
• 1:09:35
  That was before Starbeast, yeah. OK.
• 1:09:39
  Oh, interesting about the credits here.
• 1:09:40
  Right. So this this is the last of 90
• 1:09:43
  episodes since Planet of the Dead that features a credit for
• 1:09:46
  someone called Matthew Cox. It's not me, but so this is.
• 1:09:51
  This is the most recent episode where I'm credited though.
• 1:09:54
  Andrew Cox, Who are? You I'm the ADR editor,
• 1:09:57
  apparently not, right? Yeah.
• 1:09:59
  So this is missing my last appearance so today.
• 1:10:02
  Well, no wonder it all went downhill from here.
• 1:10:06
  Yeah, I was the glue holding the show together.
• 1:10:08
  So anyway, he's gone on my Yeah. I feel I was probably more
• 1:10:13
  negative there than I should have been, but I mean, I, I, I
• 1:10:18
  think, do you know, have you ever been burnt out by an era,
• 1:10:21
  like or, or seriously let down by an era and then your overall
• 1:10:25
  impression of it, no matter how good individual elements are, is
• 1:10:29
  just like I. Mean yeah, well, one might the
• 1:10:36
  only era I dislike of the Eric Saywood era.
• 1:10:38
  And so I think even the stories I like I've still got that
• 1:10:41
  reservation of like, oh, but it's got that stuff dragging it
• 1:10:44
  down. You know, that's probably closer
• 1:10:45
  I can get. Yes, Where I am here, I think
• 1:10:47
  it's just like, I'm so not on board with RTV 2 that even
• 1:10:53
  though I acknowledge that had wonderful production design and
• 1:10:57
  like exceptional direction in places, terrific performance,
• 1:11:00
  great scripting in parts, you know, wonderful performances.
• 1:11:07
  I'm just like waiting for it all to go wrong.
• 1:11:10
  You know, even though at this point it it wasn't going wrong.
• 1:11:13
  In fact, at this point, I think we were all sort of riding high
• 1:11:16
  a bit and thinking, wow, I think the Disney era is really going
• 1:11:19
  to deliver something pretty amazing.
• 1:11:23
  And because I have been negative, should we do three
• 1:11:27
  fabulous things to recommend this?
• 1:11:30
  Let's end on a high. OK, yeah, definitely.
• 1:11:33
  So we're if I written it all down, I literally can't find.
• 1:11:38
  Oh, there it is. Right.
• 1:11:39
  OK, so number one for me, the toy maker, as I said, big fan
• 1:11:44
  updated for the 21st century, arguably his best, best
• 1:11:47
  characterisation to date, including expanded universe.
• 1:11:51
  And I also really like how he becomes really important going
• 1:11:54
  forward in terms of like being the being maestro's dad or
• 1:11:58
  something and really sort of setting up the whole God fantasy
• 1:12:02
  supernatural angle. And it's so he's a really sort
• 1:12:04
  of he, he, he shadow, he, he cast a long shadow over the next
• 1:12:09
  couple of series, which, as I say, as a, as a, as a big fan of
• 1:12:12
  the character that I find that really validating that he's
• 1:12:15
  finally getting the recognition he deserves.
• 1:12:18
  So that's my first one. Also as well, I think in the
• 1:12:23
  best traditions of John Nathan Turner, it is stunt casting that
• 1:12:29
  really pays off. Oh.
• 1:12:30
  Absolutely. Got a lot of attention and it's
• 1:12:32
  probably in terms of exposure. World wise, it's probably the
• 1:12:39
  most impressive bit of casting for a Doctor Who villain since
• 1:12:43
  Peter Butterworth. Maybe like in a long, long time
• 1:12:48
  they often cast like well known British actors.
• 1:12:50
  But to find somebody who is big in America, you know, for a big
• 1:12:55
  sitcom and dramas and things and and well known in the theatre
• 1:12:58
  and stuff like that, it was really savvy.
• 1:13:03
  Yeah, 100 percent, 100%. Yeah, very, very pleased with
• 1:13:06
  that. OK, excuse me.
• 1:13:08
  I'm going to, yeah. Sorry, I forget.
• 1:13:11
  That throw the bone to me. There we go.
• 1:13:12
  There you go, catch. My first one is going to be just
• 1:13:18
  Tenant and Tate. Just the chemistry between
• 1:13:20
  Tenant and Tate. They're rarely bettered.
• 1:13:25
  I think occasionally it's better to cross the run of Doctor Who,
• 1:13:28
  but very, very rarely. I certainly think it's the best
• 1:13:32
  doctor and companion in the entirety of the new series.
• 1:13:36
  She compliments him, he compliments her, and together
• 1:13:42
  you just mind drama and comedy and very often tragedy as well,
• 1:13:48
  but genuinely moving tragedy. And I always feel, I always feel
• 1:13:53
  like they're they're learning stuff about each other and their
• 1:13:57
  relationship is always developing right up until the
• 1:13:59
  end there. Yeah, I just, I, I think it that
• 1:14:02
  was, again, it was stunt cast and Catherine Tate, but it paid
• 1:14:07
  off in spades. So absolutely, sometimes you've
• 1:14:10
  got to take a risk. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:14:12
  And I I think the key to a good doctor companion line up is, you
• 1:14:16
  know, providing that sort of yin Yang, you know, balancing each
• 1:14:19
  other out. And I think that they couldn't
• 1:14:21
  have done it better there with these two.
• 1:14:22
  So yeah, completely agree. Yeah, my number 2 is along
• 1:14:26
  similar lines is that I think it gives a better finale for tenant
• 1:14:28
  really than the end of time and a more dignified exit, better
• 1:14:31
  final line and a lot more positive really why and and it
• 1:14:35
  also leads openers to come back as well.
• 1:14:36
  There is that, but yeah, I've, I've, I think that definitely
• 1:14:40
  rights some wrongs there. Well you think sitting happily
• 1:14:43
  with a new found family is more positive than I don't want to
• 1:14:47
  go? Yeah, just.
• 1:14:50
  A. Just a smidge, yeah.
• 1:14:51
  Yeah, exactly. Despite my reservations, it's
• 1:14:56
  certainly beautifully played and like if if I was if their Doctor
• 1:15:01
  was ever going to end up with anyone, the fact that he ends up
• 1:15:04
  with Donna is his best. Friend.
• 1:15:06
  Yeah. Mel Yeah, fabulous.
• 1:15:09
  And will. Oh my God, yeah, of course.
• 1:15:12
  And Sylvia, Oh. OK.
• 1:15:15
  Shoot on the dress for all. My second thing then is going to
• 1:15:21
  be the set pieces in the 1st 40 minutes of the episode.
• 1:15:25
  Primarily, I'll choose three set pieces. 1 is that wonderful
• 1:15:30
  sequence of out of chaos on the streets, which is very expensive
• 1:15:36
  to do. People cost money and there's a
• 1:15:38
  shit ton of extras in those scenes and there's action and
• 1:15:42
  there's cars colliding and explosions happening on normal
• 1:15:45
  streets and all of that stuff to, to sort of choreograph chaos
• 1:15:50
  in an artistic way is difficult, you know, and doing it on ATV
• 1:15:54
  budget is really difficult. But I then to just have the toy
• 1:15:57
  maker in slow motion dancing around in all this madness is
• 1:16:02
  great. The second is the puppet show
• 1:16:05
  and that's just because he's basically saying all my
• 1:16:09
  complaints about the Stephen Muffet era, which amuses me no
• 1:16:13
  end. RTZ, you're a very naughty man.
• 1:16:16
  And the last one is the Spice Girls 1, which I think is
• 1:16:19
  probably the highlight of the episode.
• 1:16:22
  Just like a a great musical number.
• 1:16:25
  He didn't know the song. Neil Patrick Harris had never
• 1:16:28
  heard Spice up your life. He never heard of the Spice
• 1:16:30
  Girls. Were they not Speaking of
• 1:16:32
  America? Not as, I mean, they were
• 1:16:35
  massive here, but I don't think, I don't think they really
• 1:16:37
  cracked America or, or certainly not his part of America, he
• 1:16:41
  said. The song's so annoying that by
• 1:16:44
  the time you've done it that many times, you actually start
• 1:16:46
  to enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, I'm in a similar
• 1:16:50
  position because my older sister was a massive Spice Girls fan
• 1:16:53
  back in the day. So I, I mean, for a straight
• 1:16:55
  guy, I know more Spice Girls than I should, I feel like.
• 1:16:57
  So yeah, but. And I do kind of secretly like
• 1:17:00
  them a little bit, but I'm. Starting to question this, you
• 1:17:02
  know, indeed, even I don't like them, but I think I genuinely
• 1:17:08
  think the the Rose petals coming down in unit and coming out of
• 1:17:14
  the guns and him doing like the snow Angel from above and all of
• 1:17:17
  that. That's some of the best imagery
• 1:17:19
  in RCD 2. It's totally stolen from
• 1:17:22
  American Beauty. Do you remember that all of the
• 1:17:24
  Rose? I've seen that.
• 1:17:25
  I don't know that one. God, extraordinary
• 1:17:27
  cinematography. It's all rose petals again, and
• 1:17:29
  it's sort of similar shots, but it's so vivid.
• 1:17:32
  The red is so vivid and people turning into balls and things
• 1:17:36
  like that. So as much as I've complained,
• 1:17:39
  there is some technical mastery happening in this episode which
• 1:17:45
  has to be celebrated. Definitely.
• 1:17:48
  Definitely. Yeah.
• 1:17:49
  It does look very pretty at certain points.
• 1:17:50
  Yeah. My last point is it, well, at
• 1:17:54
  least attempts to provide a clean slate for the for the year
• 1:17:57
  going forward. I think it it works well.
• 1:18:00
  A lot of the angst gives the Doctor a fresh start.
• 1:18:03
  You know, it's a bit like a bit like with Paul McGann, after all
• 1:18:06
  the baggage of the 7th Doctor and all the manipulation and all
• 1:18:08
  that kind of stuff that built up over the course of what, nine
• 1:18:10
  years? And then suddenly you get to
• 1:18:12
  Paul McGann and it's like here we go back-to-back to basics,
• 1:18:15
  you know, fresh start, breath of fresh air.
• 1:18:18
  And this is what this this tries to do.
• 1:18:19
  I mean, they don't quite follow it up in the year to come
• 1:18:22
  unfortunately, but I think that was needed.
• 1:18:26
  By the end of by the middle of Empire of Death he's screaming
• 1:18:30
  at the whole universe whilst planets are destroyed around
• 1:18:33
  him. As angst ridden as we've ever
• 1:18:36
  seen him. Yeah, pretty much.
• 1:18:39
  Pretty much, yeah. It's yeah.
• 1:18:41
  It's not the first example of a, of a, an intended change to the
• 1:18:45
  status quo that they just forget, unfortunately.
• 1:18:48
  I'm thinking of things like the Daleks at the end of Side of the
• 1:18:51
  Daleks, where they're like where they forget the Doctor is and
• 1:18:53
  they don't bother using that at all.
• 1:18:55
  They're just straight back to normal, you know, next time we
• 1:18:58
  see them. The format always brings back,
• 1:19:00
  doesn't. It I see.
• 1:19:01
  I wish they could be a bit more consistent with stuff like that,
• 1:19:03
  really. But hey ho, you know I do.
• 1:19:06
  Say, I think, to throw Chippel some credit, I think after he
• 1:19:10
  drops the bomb of the Timeless Children and then he has her
• 1:19:14
  stuck in prison for that period, sort of thinking it all through,
• 1:19:17
  then she jumps into the Halloween apocalypse as lively
• 1:19:21
  and as up for the adventure as she's ever been.
• 1:19:27
  But I think that's the last time that really happened.
• 1:19:29
  You know, like Pauldy was always a bit tired.
• 1:19:33
  Yeah, as I say, my reading of the 13th Doctor is that she's
• 1:19:36
  just putting on a massive front and really underneath it all,
• 1:19:39
  she's just, you know, very miserable and quite, quite
• 1:19:43
  cynical and a bit nasty at times, really.
• 1:19:45
  Oh well, definitely do a 13th Doctor at some point then.
• 1:19:48
  That's an interesting. Reading, but then she puts on
• 1:19:50
  this persona of someone who's who is who is in theory happy,
• 1:19:57
  but it really isn't and sort of bottles a lot up.
• 1:20:00
  So she gets her best last line of any doctor.
• 1:20:03
  That is pretty great, yeah. Tag you're it.
• 1:20:07
  Yeah, quite creative. I like that one.
• 1:20:09
  Yeah, definitely. Oh sorry, where was that Second
• 1:20:12
  or third is my? 3rd, I think it's your third,
• 1:20:14
  yeah. My third.
• 1:20:16
  OK, what was your third? Oh.
• 1:20:18
  Babe in a clean slate. The intentions to for positivity
• 1:20:21
  going forward, yeah, I suppose we do get that in Church of Ruby
• 1:20:25
  Rd. though, don't we? You know.
• 1:20:27
  Yeah, Yes, we do. Can't you remember?
• 1:20:30
  Oh, the garden King. Oh, the garden king.
• 1:20:33
  It's good to meet you. You great big thing.
• 1:20:35
  Go on, you do the next line. I I've I don't want to do not.
• 1:20:41
  Like it? I I don't like the song.
• 1:20:44
  I love it. I don't remember the lines and
• 1:20:47
  I've not seen on a podcast. Fuck that.
• 1:20:49
  Well. Fair enough, fair enough.
• 1:20:52
  It's good to see you're having a fun day.
• 1:20:55
  Meet my friends. She's Ruby Sunday.
• 1:20:58
  Oh God. RTD cannot write lyrics.
• 1:21:00
  He can write a script, great. But oh God, but.
• 1:21:03
  You mean he can't write lyrics? It's good to meet you, it's good
• 1:21:06
  to greet you, good to say. How diddly DEET you all
• 1:21:11
  Dreadful. I know that's supposed to be
• 1:21:12
  bad, but Christ, the rest of it is no better.
• 1:21:15
  Is it really it's? My birthday.
• 1:21:16
  My. Oh, my.
• 1:21:18
  I'm 53 up in the sky. So sorry.
• 1:21:23
  I'm so sorry. Where was I?
• 1:21:26
  Oh, yeah. Third thing.
• 1:21:28
  Oh, of course. She got a lift from a drinko.
• 1:21:32
  It's our Melanie Bush. I've always loved Mel.
• 1:21:37
  I love Mel in the 80s. I fucking love Mel in Big
• 1:21:40
  Finish. I think they did a wonderful job
• 1:21:42
  with her over those 20 years and it.
• 1:21:46
  Please give me this moment. It gives me such joy that that
• 1:21:52
  the roles have reversed from the 80s and Mel who was treated so
• 1:21:59
  badly by fandom and Ace who was treat who was lauded.
• 1:22:06
  She gets the cameo role in a one off the Doctors finale.
• 1:22:10
  Basically a side character in a much bigger episode.
• 1:22:13
  You know because Sophie Aldred can't act whereas Male is
• 1:22:17
  brought back as a regular that everybody celebrates every time
• 1:22:22
  they see her. How the tables have turned?
• 1:22:27
  Exactly. I think I think it's fully
• 1:22:28
  deserved this sort of renaissance of male.
• 1:22:30
  And as I was saying earlier, I think good showrunners take
• 1:22:34
  something that didn't work before, bring it back and do it
• 1:22:36
  better and make it work retroactively.
• 1:22:38
  And I think that's this is another example of it.
• 1:22:40
  I wonder if we would have had the male episode in Series 3.
• 1:22:45
  I wish we'd had it in Series 2. I wish they'd done it because I
• 1:22:48
  think whatever they were setting up with that, oh, my family went
• 1:22:52
  missing and all of that. I I feel like there was a story
• 1:22:55
  to be told there. And yet she sort of turns up in
• 1:22:59
  the unit stories and she gets bits and bobs to do.
• 1:23:01
  She's pretty good in The Legend of Ruby Sunday, that wonderful
• 1:23:05
  thing. We shoot to where she goes, are
• 1:23:07
  you done sniveling? Right, get up and let's get on
• 1:23:09
  with it, you know? Speaking for the let's, speaking
• 1:23:13
  for all the classic Who fans there, I think probably stop
• 1:23:17
  crying and get out and do it and get on with it.
• 1:23:18
  Yeah, I mean, I do think it's a marvellous innovation.
• 1:23:21
  That unit is now spearheaded by so many women.
• 1:23:25
  That's just fabulous. Gemma Redgraves there.
• 1:23:28
  Bonnie Langford. Oh, God, I've forgotten her
• 1:23:31
  name. Shirley Bingham.
• 1:23:33
  What's her name like? Ruth Maigley.
• 1:23:36
  You know, you've got Rose Noble. You know, they're all there.
• 1:23:39
  Fabulous, fabulous women. Unfortunately, they bet rarely
• 1:23:42
  get anything too true in the reality war, where they're all
• 1:23:45
  in that scene with Irani and everyone gets one line and
• 1:23:48
  they're all just sort of standing around.
• 1:23:50
  Yeah, sort of overstuffed, I think, Yeah, I think RT VS
• 1:23:54
  usually better at just getting the just the right amount of
• 1:23:56
  characters in a scene and not not overstuffing things where I
• 1:23:59
  think he just got a bit carried away with, oh, and then that
• 1:24:01
  person could be there, that person could be there, you know?
• 1:24:04
  That, that was like a 20th draft though, you know, by that point.
• 1:24:07
  It's true, yeah. Fuck it, just film it.
• 1:24:09
  I suppose. Yeah, he'd already committed in,
• 1:24:11
  like in the previous versions of the episode, it would be
• 1:24:13
  committed to having those characters.
• 1:24:14
  So we had to have them in there, I suppose, by that point.
• 1:24:16
  So yeah, again, that is forgivable.
• 1:24:19
  But like, like, I think both of us, when this went out, we did.
• 1:24:25
  It was the dawn of the age of the new, the new Aquarius,
• 1:24:30
  wasn't it? Like it really felt like
• 1:24:32
  something special was coming. And I for me, if the era doesn't
• 1:24:37
  work, it's not the fault of the giggle, which I think is a
• 1:24:40
  really good bit of television. I do think Wild Blue Yonder is
• 1:24:44
  the best of the three special. Yeah, I do agree with that,
• 1:24:46
  yeah. Just because like I mean, didn't
• 1:24:49
  rags on the special effects. I thought they were pretty good.
• 1:24:52
  But just as a performance piece and as a as a mood piece, like
• 1:24:57
  as an ambience piece, I think it's extraordinary.
• 1:24:59
  But this has so much to do, and it does most of it very, very
• 1:25:04
  well. Yeah, definitely.
• 1:25:06
  Yeah, I think Wild Blue Yonder, Yeah, I think it's a great bit
• 1:25:09
  of cerebral sci-fi on on that level.
• 1:25:12
  I think it works brilliant. But I do kind of agree with the
• 1:25:14
  effects. I don't think they look back
• 1:25:15
  great, if I'm honest. I do kind of agree with Dylan
• 1:25:17
  there, I'm sorry to say. But what happened?
• 1:25:19
  The flux looked amazing, didn't it?
• 1:25:21
  Yeah, I don't know what happened.
• 1:25:23
  I don't know what happened there really.
• 1:25:24
  Where is the Disney money? Yeah, well, it was all going
• 1:25:29
  into it being 4K apparently, wouldn't it?
• 1:25:31
  It was that was where a lot of it went into having the effects
• 1:25:35
  up to that standard. So it wasn't that was a waste.
• 1:25:38
  No, it wasn't worth it. Who watches 4K?
• 1:25:41
  I I I don't have. I ever have.
• 1:25:44
  I heard as well that a lot of the money for series 1 when on
• 1:25:50
  the fact that I think there was supposed to be an additional
• 1:25:53
  episode and for whatever reason they decided instead of doing
• 1:26:01
  that extra episode, every episode was going to get 5
• 1:26:04
  minutes extra. So extra Mysterio had to be
• 1:26:06
  filmed and extra effects were needed for each episode.
• 1:26:10
  So the sort of budget was annotised in a really odd way
• 1:26:14
  which is why. And I do genuinely think the the
• 1:26:17
  overall look of series 2, whilst I don't really like the
• 1:26:21
  episodes, it looks expensive compared to series 1 because I
• 1:26:27
  think they got it right there and whatever happened with those
• 1:26:30
  extra 5 minutes, it didn't happen in series 2 but.
• 1:26:33
  Was there an extra 5 minutes? I think they were quite short.
• 1:26:36
  A lot of those episodes weren't there I.
• 1:26:37
  Swear that's what I heard. Well, I could be just spreading
• 1:26:40
  bullshit, I mean. Maybe they dropped an episode
• 1:26:44
  because of shoot is availability not to drop in those Doctor
• 1:26:46
  Light episodes. Maybe there was something like
• 1:26:47
  that going on as well, I don't know.
• 1:26:48
  I think we can kindly say there was a few problems. 01 or two,
• 1:26:53
  one or two. Yeah, unfortunately.
• 1:26:55
  Yeah, like all Doctor Who gold still peaked out.
• 1:26:59
  Because that's Doctor Who, right?
• 1:27:01
  That's sometimes magic for adversity.
• 1:27:04
  Exactly. I think I've, I've definitely
• 1:27:06
  taken more positives out of this era than negatives.
• 1:27:09
  So I think more of it worked and didn't for me personally.
• 1:27:12
  I think it's one of those areas where yes, on a macro scale, a
• 1:27:14
  lot went wrong, a lot could have been done better and it wasn't
• 1:27:17
  as successful as it could have been.
• 1:27:18
  But if you if you look at a list of episodes, I think it could
• 1:27:22
  rival any era. Personally, I don't think it's
• 1:27:25
  got anything to worry about. And you think?
• 1:27:27
  I honestly do. Like I got to such a point with
• 1:27:30
  Interstellar and those last three that I just like.
• 1:27:35
  I have no interest in that Christmas special.
• 1:27:37
  When RTD goes, I'll I'll be really excited again to see what
• 1:27:41
  the next creative does. But I kind of know what's
• 1:27:44
  coming. It's going to be all the old
• 1:27:46
  tricks. It's going to be Piper, it's
• 1:27:48
  going to be Tennant. It's, you know, like it's going
• 1:27:51
  to be sort of a big loving for that era once again.
• 1:27:54
  It's going to be self indulgent and it's probably going to be
• 1:27:57
  anticlimactic. And I know that's me being a
• 1:27:59
  cynical bastard, but that's just kind of where I am with the show
• 1:28:02
  at the moment. I'm far more enjoying delving
• 1:28:05
  into the past of the show than it's present.
• 1:28:09
  Oh boy, what a sad way to end this.
• 1:28:12
  None know. Well, I I could be a little bit
• 1:28:14
  more positive if you want going in because I mean it yes, it
• 1:28:17
  probably is going to be fan wanky, but I think number one,
• 1:28:20
  well, I'm I am a fan and a lot being wanked off, so I'm I'm I'm
• 1:28:23
  fine with that. And secondly, I I I'm glad it's
• 1:28:27
  it's got at least one more episode to wrap itself up.
• 1:28:29
  I think if it had just been left here, that would been a tragedy
• 1:28:33
  as far as I'm because I, I, I can't stand an, an era or a
• 1:28:37
  series or whatever stopping early.
• 1:28:39
  I find that it really just throws the whole thing off
• 1:28:43
  ruins. But I think back to things like
• 1:28:44
  the Divergent universe are with Big Finish where they did, they
• 1:28:47
  paced it as if it could be Four Seasons and then had to rush to
• 1:28:50
  an ending after the second season and it just retroactively
• 1:28:53
  ruined the whole thing for me. I, I, I find it so unsatisfying.
• 1:28:57
  So the fact that it's got an extra episode I'm I'm really
• 1:29:00
  grateful for personally. You've sort of explained RCD 2
• 1:29:04
  to me there. Like they were, they were
• 1:29:05
  planning for three seasons and unfortunately they had to
• 1:29:08
  squeeze it all into two. And then this last episode where
• 1:29:12
  I'm assuming they're going to reveal who the boss is because
• 1:29:15
  they've laid so many seats, he's got to pay that off.
• 1:29:18
  Yeah, and Susan and. Please don't bring Carolyn back,
• 1:29:23
  Grandfather, go back. Well, they what they hopefully
• 1:29:28
  they might regenerate and we'll get a better actress going.
• 1:29:31
  Forward Oh please, please, I've got at.
• 1:29:34
  Least a bit open-ended so we can get another actress in yeah in
• 1:29:37
  future. So this might be the the final
• 1:29:40
  appearance of Caroline Ford, and if nothing else, it'll be worth
• 1:29:42
  it for that. Oh, and then we can send her off
• 1:29:45
  to the knackers yard. Wonderful.
• 1:29:47
  Yeah, exactly, Exactly so. Well, Matt, where the hell are
• 1:29:53
  we going next? Well, we are.
• 1:29:56
  We're going to be keeping our eyes filled, ice ice filled,
• 1:29:59
  eyes peeled for the 6th segment of the Key to time.
• 1:30:02
  I believe I remember rightly and we're going.
• 1:30:04
  To be watching Armageddon, please.
• 1:30:06
  Oh, you'll get nothing from positivity from me in that one.
• 1:30:09
  Oh, same. No, I think it's great.
• 1:30:11
  I've always enjoyed that one. It's one of my highlights of the
• 1:30:13
  season, to be honest. The Shadow Drax.
• 1:30:16
  The Black Guardian, my God. What's?
• 1:30:21
  That terrible fellow Shap who can't act to save his life.
• 1:30:26
  John Ravine, the skull in the dark.
• 1:30:30
  Oh, wait a minute, hang on a minute.
• 1:30:32
  That is Meritan at her most movie starter.
• 1:30:36
  Is that why we're watching it? That is one of the reasons why
• 1:30:39
  we're watching it, yeah. Even I'm on the turn watching
• 1:30:42
  that, you know? Don't get me salaries, Yeah.
• 1:30:46
  Amazing. Well, you know, you, you keep
• 1:30:48
  your hands above the desk. Or oh, they're they're here.
• 1:30:51
  OK, yes, behave. Yourself, good grief, you
• 1:30:54
  remember you're on camera well, so the Armageddon factor, how
• 1:30:58
  exciting. Do you know what we can We can
• 1:31:00
  sort of look at it to see now we've sort of slagged off some
• 1:31:05
  season finales in RTD 2. Let's see what it's like when we
• 1:31:09
  had the first big Doctor Who's season finale.
• 1:31:13
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, all these classic fans
• 1:31:14
  moaning about all the finales these days.
• 1:31:16
  Well, let's see how you your story stack up, shall we?
• 1:31:18
  Please? That's.
• 1:31:19
  Great, what you're talking about.
• 1:31:21
  Yeah, well, I I agree, but yeah. Nuclear war.
• 1:31:23
  You know that great computer putting the whole universe in a
• 1:31:27
  time loop? Oh, wonderful.
• 1:31:29
  Oh yeah, that time loop that lasts about 10 minutes on screen
• 1:31:32
  as well. That's that.
• 1:31:33
  That's nice bit of reuse footage there as well.
• 1:31:34
  That's great. Yeah.
• 1:31:35
  What? What's not to like?
• 1:31:37
  I think it's, yeah, great. Well, if you're ready to press
• 1:31:41
  the button several times over or almost pressed the button, he
• 1:31:46
  doesn't. Does he get there?
• 1:31:47
  Oh, he does fire them in the end.
• 1:31:48
  Doesn't he in the end, I believe, Yeah, if I remember, I
• 1:31:51
  haven't seen it for like God, 5-6 years, but yeah, something
• 1:31:54
  like that. Do you fancy a holiday to Atrios
• 1:31:56
  and Zeus where you can fry eggs in the streets?
• 1:31:59
  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 1:32:01
  Let's let's go for it. Let's go for it.
• 1:32:05
  Oh, we'll cut it there. Oh, we'll cut it there.