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UK Farming — Fighting for Its Future · UK Column Radio

0:08
Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with Auk column interview and today
0:12
I'm joined by Alan Hughes who is a farmer.
0:16
Alan, a very warm welcome to UK column.
0:18
Thank you for taking some time out of your day to join me.
0:22
Thank you for having me. Not at all.
0:23
Now, Alan, timing is everything and when we arranged to speak,
0:27
it was because you were representing Farmers to Action.
0:32
Now the situation has changed somewhat in the last day in that
0:37
Farmers to Action has disbanded or at least announced that it's
0:41
disbanded. But so we'll use that as a as a
0:45
vehicle to, you know, be able to articulate exactly what has gone
0:51
on. But let's just go back one what
0:53
was farmers to action and how how was it that you became
0:58
involved? Farmers to Action was set up as
1:01
a farm network to allow farmers to protest and get their voices
1:05
heard about IHT and the difficulties of making a profit
1:09
from food production to the public.
1:11
And how the supermarkets and large corporations make vast
1:14
amounts of profits off up as farmers and charge the public
1:18
far too much for food while we struggle to survive and you
1:21
struggle to pay for it. Very succinct.
1:25
It sounds almost like you've rehearsed that, but that's
1:29
absolutely to the point, which is perfect.
1:31
Now how, how is it that you had become involved and had taken on
1:36
the role that you had? I'm not actually quite sure what
1:38
that role was. Perhaps you could just talk a
1:39
little bit about how you were sort of making it work.
1:42
Well I started by when IHT came out and there was a protest in
1:47
London done by Ollie Blocks and several farmers.
1:50
I can get to London. So to support it I wanted a
1:53
local protest in our area, Shropshire.
1:55
So I organised the farmers to Go slow protest from the livestock
1:59
market and from there several other people done the same thing
2:04
and they said really we ought to be getting this more joined up
2:07
so it's easy to go. And from their role too for
2:10
helping to organise action across the whole of the UK as
2:14
well as the Liverpool protests. And I went to several of the
2:17
conferences to make sure farmers views and points are heard on
2:21
better agricultural policy, fairer prices for farmers and
2:24
fairer prices for the public. I was helping coordinate that.
2:29
And he has also never took on the responsibility of a
2:32
director. We've closed that down due to
2:36
escalating farmer tensions and some farmers talking about doing
2:40
things that I couldn't support as a limited company.
2:43
And I said it's safer to dissolve it and then individuals
2:47
can do what they like off their own back and not use our logo or
2:52
pieces to be implemented in it. OK, we'll look, we'll get into
2:57
into the detail in a non hopefully sort of not too
3:01
intrusive a fashion in in due course.
3:04
But I think you've sort of got to the heart of the matter,
3:06
which is that there has been a great deal of focus on
3:10
inheritance tax, or at least the announcement by the the the
3:13
Chancellor, Rachel Reeves and the proposed plan for the
3:15
changes to inheritance tax, or at least as expressed by
3:18
agricultural property relief will will come to that in
3:22
specific detail. But you talk about the idea that
3:27
that a campaign should be conducted not just in one place,
3:32
but you know, you're, you're in Shropshire and you know, there
3:37
is obviously a focus on London because of the Westminster
3:40
government being in London. But just talk to me a bit about
3:44
how this does work in terms of a network as such and how there
3:50
has been a degree of coordination through regions and
3:55
how exactly does that work and what are what are the
3:57
difficulties associated with it? Well, the main difficulty is
4:02
every farmer is their own boss and it's very difficult to get
4:05
them to agree on what actions they afford.
4:07
And if they don't agree, they'll go off and do things anyway,
4:11
which can have repercussions for those who haven't planned it.
4:15
So we've set up county groups. There's many other protest
4:18
groups around the country for different areas, but most work
4:21
on a county by county basis and they can put through this is
4:24
what we're thinking of doing. What do you think?
4:28
What's this date work for you? And then you will try and get it
4:31
on the same sort of date. So it's not just one place at a
4:35
time, which isn't really a story, but all over the country
4:39
and in London if needed or not. Because yes, the government is
4:43
in London, but there's protests in London every single day and
4:46
you see nothing of it on the news and the MPs are deaf to it.
4:50
But when it's on their own doorstep where people are voting
4:53
for them, they actually start to listen because the last thing
4:57
they want is that the next set of election for their voters or
5:00
constituents go, I'm not paying for you because look what
5:02
happened here, you're not helping these people and it's
5:05
affecting us locally. Look how many of us have come to
5:08
come to show our support and want change.
5:11
That then makes the individual MPs sit up, listen and have
5:16
discussions and then it gets fed to government rather than just
5:20
ignored because of what's going on outside the Houses of
5:22
Parliament. OK, that's a very good point.
5:25
And I would hazard a guess that everybody watching and listening
5:30
will be able to think of countless examples of protests
5:34
or indeed anything else being ignored by central government.
5:38
Are you able to point to any specific examples of a success
5:42
or a qualified success in response to some action that has
5:46
been conducted locally in in your area?
5:50
Almost all of our farmers by areas have been invited to
5:54
meetings with their local MPs. Had local MPs come to their
5:57
farms as direct result. Open dialogue.
6:00
Multiple emails to and back and forth.
6:02
Opening dialogue. Invites to policy meetings.
6:06
Invites to Liberal Derekat conference invites.
6:09
The Reform conference allowed into the Conservative
6:12
conference. The only one we weren't allowed
6:14
into was Labour conference but we have had many backbenchers
6:19
privately staking their concerns at what's going on and that they
6:24
are not in support of what is happening and that is swells
6:28
rumours. I expect around this the bit
6:30
destabilised situation in Parliament at the moment.
6:33
So I'd say there's many successes and far too numerous
6:37
to count. OK, so the on the engagement
6:40
front, absolutely positive. I, I absolutely recognize.
6:44
Now I'm going to ask you a question that you might consider
6:47
slightly facetious, but it's not intended to be so at all.
6:49
I think it's really important place to start because
6:52
agriculture as we might consider it and everybody of course has
6:55
their own perspective on exactly what that means has changed a
6:58
huge amount over the last, let's say 200 years in particular.
7:02
What in in your mind, and indeed in the way that Farmers to
7:08
Action and perhaps other groups are sort of coordinated and
7:13
focusing, what is the role of a farmer in the United Kingdom in
7:18
2025? Well, we're custodians of the
7:22
land. Some own it, some, like myself,
7:24
rent it. It's our job to make sure it is
7:26
maintained a good habitat and make sure it is left in a better
7:30
state than which we should have received it, and to provide food
7:34
which is nutritious, sustainable and healthy for the general
7:38
public. Problem we've got is government
7:40
policies such as additives to milk, which I won't name, are
7:45
against this. Some environmental policies do
7:48
not understand the environment or the countryside.
7:50
Rewilding by removing livestock completely leaves.
7:54
It goes wild, it's no longer eaten by livestock, so it sets a
7:58
fire. If it doesn't set a fire, the
8:00
small wildflowers and habitats are destroyed by being smothered
8:04
by vegetation or eating, and there's no manure from the
8:07
livestock to fertilize it. So rewilding is not
8:10
environmentally friendly, management of the land is, which
8:14
we've done for hundreds if not thousands of years and should be
8:17
left to be planned and organised by farmers, not by people in
8:22
offices which have never worked a day in their life in their
8:24
industry. Not not just in farmers case,
8:26
it's in fisheries cases and almost all other land based
8:30
industries. OK, OK, Yeah, that that's
8:35
fantastic. And I think that's a, that's a
8:37
great start point. The, the immediate difficulty
8:41
with setting out those conditions, as it were, is that
8:47
the situation at the, at the current moment is that the vast
8:50
majority of people who do have agricultural holdings are
8:55
dependent in some way on receipt of some sort of government
9:00
subsidy. And therefore, if the government
9:04
are going to make such and such a payment, it is up to them as
9:09
to what the terms of that agreement are.
9:12
Or at least that's the way that it's being set out.
9:14
So for, you know, rewild is rewilding is a very, very good
9:18
example. What, what, what is your view?
9:21
What's the, what's the sort of the view or the consensus come
9:25
to be on the relationship that farmers should have with
9:29
government, if any? And and of course we, we can't
9:32
ignore the the financial side of this.
9:36
Well, I can only speak personally, but I think that
9:39
anyone in a business that is not allowed to set their own prices.
9:43
We are the only business which we are told the price received
9:46
by government and by corporations due to the
9:49
government's legislations and way they've set things out.
9:52
If that is the case, then whatever those figures be, it
9:55
needs to be profitable, sustainable, actually provide
9:59
good for the environment, not perceived on paper actual
10:03
wildlife habitats and gear that you can see, which is the way
10:07
people already farm. You look at mono cropping, so
10:09
rewilding, focusing on what government's doing that damages
10:13
the environment because they don't know what they're doing.
10:16
So if they're going to put a policy in place, it should be
10:18
designed by farmers, not by people in suits which are
10:22
causing more damage than they are actually fixing due to
10:26
unintentional acts just through ignorance or lack of knowledge
10:31
of the situation. Yeah, OK.
10:34
Well, actually, funnily enough, yesterday, or at least we're
10:38
recording on Friday, there was a debate in the House of Lords
10:41
yesterday on what's described as biodiversity.
10:44
And you know, the sort of lamentation that since this
10:47
Labour government took over, there's been a, there's been a
10:49
loss of biodiversity and, and whatnot.
10:53
I think unless you've really been paying attention, there has
10:56
been a very, very obvious and wilful conflation of several
11:00
different things. But most obviously what's being
11:01
described as biodiversity and what is described as a climate
11:06
emergency. Now, I I don't want to get you
11:08
into too much hot water necessarily, but, but is there a
11:12
climate emergency in your view? And if so, or if not, what are
11:17
the drivers of such a thing? My personal thought is there's
11:22
always an emergency of some sort when anyone wants to generate
11:25
more tax. Whether it was the Ice Age in
11:28
the 80s, acid rain, the loss of carbon, solar energy, climate
11:33
has never been fixed. It's always been fluid from the
11:36
Ice Age into the 80s, heat wave in the early 20s and the fact
11:41
you could walk across the channel during Roman times.
11:44
Our world is ever evolving, ever changing wherever it's due to
11:48
carbon, which is a very small amount of the atmosphere, the
11:51
strength of the sun, or other factors that we do not yet know
11:55
or fully understand. I would be very surprised if one
11:58
year is not different to the next every year.
12:01
All you can do is your best effort through I'd state old
12:05
fashioned methods, the proven testing methods of do the best
12:09
you can, improvise, adapt and overcome.
12:14
Yeah, well, on a personal note, I think I would go along with
12:17
you there, especially on the, the expectation or the absurd
12:20
expectation that one year in terms of weather or climate
12:23
would be identical to the one proceeding or succeeding it.
12:27
The problem of course is that the way that environmental Land
12:30
Management schemes are set out is that they are predicated on
12:34
policy that has come from without, say for example, the
12:39
the the drive. And this was mentioned in the in
12:40
the Lords yesterday, you know, the, the sustainable markets
12:44
initiative with the push for 30 by 30.
12:47
You know, 30% of EU KS land mass in what's called nature recovery
12:52
by 20-30. the United Nations sustainable development goals in
12:57
effect, a lot of policy decisions being made outside of
13:02
Westminster with absolutely no input from the farming
13:05
community. And yet those are the binding
13:09
factors which dictate the legislation from which the
13:15
financial support to the farming industry comes.
13:18
Is that a an issue that is being taken on directly with the sorts
13:23
of engagements that you're talking about?
13:26
It's very difficult to address situations like this when you're
13:29
dealing multi million to multi billion, some cases trillion
13:32
companies which are pushing an agenda.
13:35
And there is always ties if you look deeply enough between one
13:40
individual and other individuals.
13:41
But basically, if you follow the money, you can normally see
13:44
where things are coming from in greening.
13:47
Solar panels, wind turbines are big business, very big business,
13:52
and they're not as green as people think.
13:54
A lot of their stuff can't even be recycled.
13:57
The damage from mining the components for them is arguably
14:01
more detrimental than the good they receive.
14:04
But if you get to the crux, follow the money, you can see
14:07
why it's pushed so hard, especially when you look at
14:10
donations to different organisations, parties and
14:14
individuals. Yeah, absolutely.
14:17
No, Obviously the the we've, we've skirted around the issue
14:21
to a certain extent. You mentioned it right at the
14:22
front, inheritance tax and the change I think, I think for the
14:27
in the interest of clarity, we should be quick to point out
14:31
that this is a situation that changed only in 1992 with the
14:37
100% relief in the 1st place. And and also that it's not just
14:41
agricultural property relief but also business property relief.
14:46
Just in a nutshell, what is the issue with the proposed change
14:51
from the 6th of April next year? No profitability as I stated our
14:57
prices are fixed by us, the supermarkets and the governments
15:01
are making record prices like never seen before while we are
15:04
on the smallest margins ever. Def for his own statistics of
15:08
return on investment on farming with 2023 to 23.
15:12
Four which are the latest leaks is now minus nought .8 for food
15:16
production minus. That's the key point here.
15:21
You look back in the 90s and the 80s there was good profit in
15:24
farming. You'd have to be an idiot to
15:25
lose money now. If you haven't got an Afghan
15:28
degree, a full office team to fill out all the brothical red
15:31
tape and rubbish forced on you, you haven't got a hope of
15:35
surviving, let alone maintaining your business.
15:38
And very little chance of thriving is the money has been
15:41
forced out of the job for supermarkets and its big players
15:45
and leaving the farmers stranded.
15:48
And the big issue we've got here because it's been done before.
15:51
We've had Labour governments before World War One and Two
15:53
which destroyed the agricultural industry and then we almost
15:57
started when we went to war, where arguably the most unstable
16:02
time in the world's history since World War Two could easily
16:05
be into difficult situation of either imports or war and they
16:10
are destroying the home, food, national security.
16:13
I think it's madness and immoral to be going down this current
16:16
route. And, and sorry, just to be
16:20
specific, when you say the current route, you mean to
16:23
change the threshold on inheritance tax?
16:26
Both because threshold of inheritance tax means that the
16:29
only people should be able to afford to buy businesses and
16:32
farms and sold is large corporations from abroad which
16:37
would not pay into the tax system anyway other than when
16:40
they paid stamp duty. So you're taking money out of
16:43
GDP and the tax and increasing the burden on the general public
16:47
while reducing food security and food availability.
16:50
That further increases food inflation and the cost of living
16:54
to the general public for no benefit to anybody bar foreign
16:59
investment and shareholders. It is an incredibly dangerous
17:02
and slippery slope which undermines our food security and
17:06
our national national security in one fell swoop.
17:10
Yeah, And 2025, there's been an awful lot of discussion
17:14
predicated on the idea of national security and exactly
17:17
what that means. The security, the National
17:20
Security Strategy was published this year, as was the Strategic
17:22
Defense Review. Both talk about resilience via
17:27
having a robust supply chain into not just food but but in
17:32
all respect. And yet the, you know, from what
17:35
you're describing, there's actually very little being done
17:38
in a way to affect that, certainly not via any sort of
17:42
joined up initiative or indeed communication with those that
17:46
are supposed to provide the food security.
17:48
The other issue with food security, of course is that it's
17:51
not actually enshrined in law anywhere that the government
17:54
must pursue food security. It's only referenced 3 times on
17:58
the statute book and only then in passing reference to how to
18:02
design an environmental Land Management scheme in that it, it
18:05
may be a consideration, but it's never actually a priority.
18:10
Is that intentional to your mind?
18:14
Or I mean, you know, why would that be the case?
18:16
If it, if the same government is going to write documents and say
18:19
we need XY and Z in order to say that we have some sense of
18:25
national security and yet they don't enshrine in law anything
18:29
concerning food security. What what?
18:31
What is 1 to take from that? I'd say it's short sighted, or
18:35
it could be construed as allowing for profiteering.
18:38
You've got to remember that some of the largest donators to these
18:41
parties are corporations that own supermarkets, import and
18:45
export companies and situation like that does benefit them
18:48
greatly. Regardless.
18:50
The fact that worldwide food production is actually being
18:53
reduced due to pushing through solar panels, greening and
18:57
reworlding, and almost every country in the western world is
19:01
protesting against these facts in government.
19:04
Larger turnovers, smaller margin, more expensive
19:07
machinery, more bureaucracy and cost, but less availability to
19:11
produce food and more statements of reducing dairy and meat which
19:17
means more reliance on chemical fertilizers because without
19:21
those livestock you do not have the manure for the buyer to
19:24
firstly to feed your crops. And that further increases the
19:27
cost of production as you rely more heavily on chemical
19:31
fertilizers and sprays to keep the crops.
19:34
It's very poor thinking, but what it does do is drive at
19:38
corporate profits due to reliance on chemicals imports
19:42
and foreign globalization. Yeah, I think that's a very good
19:46
point well made. And it's something that people
19:50
in, in large part probably don't fully understand, but we just
19:54
just flesh that out a bit more the the input side of it.
19:57
And how, because going back to this idea of biodiversity and,
20:01
and sort of in a way wanting to have it both ways, wanting to
20:04
say, yes, well, we're producing XY and Z food.
20:07
We're reducing the amount of land that can be used to provide
20:12
food. And there's a sort of implicit
20:14
expectation. That artificial inputs won't be
20:18
used, but in actual fact, people are put in a very difficult
20:20
position and in effect are are more or less forced to to use
20:25
such inputs. Would that would that be the way
20:27
that you might put it or could you just go into a bit more
20:29
detail? They're they're completely
20:31
contradicting themselves. They're demanding that you don't
20:34
use chemicals and fertilizers yet when you're asking for
20:38
higher yields of lower acreage, there's no option but to to use
20:43
those things. Now we buck the trend a bit.
20:46
At home, we are rented, so we have no choice but to make sure
20:49
we can cover the cost. We do not have the buffer of
20:52
land to sell if you don't. So we keep everything in house.
20:57
We grow our own corn and straw to feed the livestock.
20:59
It's not human grade on there. The livestock and the cattle are
21:03
fed using silage corn and straw in the winter when it's too wet
21:07
like now and preserve groups, but their manure fertilizes the
21:11
crops, the ground, etcetera. Therefore we use only one, maybe
21:17
2 spreads of fertilizer a year and very rarely do we use any
21:21
chemical at all on our crops. But that is bucking the trend.
21:25
If we did not have the livestock to feed the crops, we'd be
21:28
reliant on the fertilizer, and if we didn't have the crops and
21:32
straw to litter the cattle through the winter, we'd be
21:35
reliant on buying that of large corporations who are using
21:39
chemicals and fertilizer to survive.
21:43
It also helps us wherever the current storms as arable crops
21:47
are pretty much the lowest price they've ever been pushing
21:50
towards the 80s on it, yet the cost of production is now well
21:54
over the cost of being paid. So it's a very strange situation
21:59
we're in when you can import things from countries that you
22:03
can't really prove where they've come from and not have to be
22:07
done to sell welfare, health or Food Standards that we have to,
22:12
as British farmers with no paperwork can freely be imported
22:17
and put through the same food processes into human
22:19
consumption. Whereas CAT.
22:22
Yeah. OK.
22:23
So a lot of contradictions there.
22:25
Let's talk about the, as you say, the idea that we should be
22:29
reducing, you know, in the name of supposedly a climate
22:32
emergency. Apparently somehow eating less
22:35
meat and dairy and animal products is going to make a
22:39
difference. It's never really been
22:40
satisfactory explained how that would affect itself.
22:44
But quite like you say, that means that the ground is not
22:48
being fertilizers, not it's not having, you know, the the same
22:51
amount of sort of carbon absorption as it as it would
22:53
have otherwise. That is a massive contradiction.
22:57
But you do talk about what you're doing as as bucking A
23:00
trend. Are you suggesting then that the
23:04
majority of farmers are becoming more intensive and more
23:09
industrialized or, or or do you mean that there is just still an
23:13
an overwhelming majority of people doing it that way?
23:17
Well you have two options if you wish to survive.
23:19
Farmers are going bust at record numbers and record weights,
23:22
especially over the last 12 months, and suicide levels due
23:26
to the pressure have never been higher before and even more so
23:29
have IHT. So you have two options.
23:32
You either go down the rewilding route, except you do what they
23:36
want to do, whether it's damaging to your land under
23:38
control and a lot of people see those numbers and haven't the
23:43
ability to do the costs. So we've worked out that if we
23:48
done what was put on the paper, we'd lose more money in from
23:52
than we would put if we got it in production as we are.
23:56
So I'll put that in clear English.
23:58
If I did what they are asking us to on the rented farm, I would
24:01
not be able to afford my rent. Whereas by doing it sustainably
24:05
and smartly and watching my figures through producing very
24:09
effectively, very efficiently, using crop rotations, manure,
24:15
livestock, venous cycle, I can make a profit to survive.
24:19
I should be able to thrive doing something like this.
24:21
But finally, at the moment no one is.
24:24
Everyone is suffering. Now the bigger issue is we're
24:28
input told to import food. Food produced here by grass,
24:32
mostly beef, dairy, lamb and sheep is by far the best carbon
24:37
efficient way of doing it in the world.
24:40
It is actually, if you include photosynthesis, carbon negative.
24:45
We're capturing more carbon than we're using.
24:47
But they don't allow that though.
24:49
Everyone who goes to school learns that that is how carbon
24:51
is sequenced through photosynthesis.
24:52
So the mass used is raw. But if you're importing it
24:56
instead, you're having it from other countries doing high
25:00
ration feeding through arable intense systems, deforestration,
25:04
the Amazon to grow soy crops to feed it and feed lots.
25:08
You are fueling the damage to the environment and then to add
25:12
salt or insult to injury you are shipping it to the country to
25:17
eat rather than having it locally.
25:19
So it's low food miles for a sustainable way.
25:22
You are actually doing better. Good to drink milk from the UK.
25:27
Eat British meat van importing vegetables for from abroad to
25:32
have a lower meat and dairy input diet.
25:36
Your carbon footprint would be far higher importing avocados
25:40
from South America and Mexico or vegetables in Spain than eating
25:44
seasonal vegetables and food grown here.
25:48
So I don't see the argument for improving environment by not
25:52
eating meat and dairy. I see as if you want meat and
25:56
dairy, eat it from here, don't import it.
26:00
OK. And then, you know, the, the,
26:02
the obvious sort of follow up there as well that that's an
26:06
easy win. Then, you know, the public just
26:08
changed their behaviour and hey presto, everything works out.
26:10
But obviously it's not that simple.
26:13
The, the public do have the ability to change the situation,
26:19
you know, notwithstanding the fact that we are, we absolutely
26:21
we are where we are. You're, you've talked about
26:25
engagement with politicians, with other farming groups and
26:29
presumably sort of across the industry to a certain extent.
26:33
How do you feel the engagement with the general public?
26:36
I know that's a that's a very, very broad sort of term and
26:39
broad question, but how is that engagement affecting itself?
26:43
Well, I think we've never had more public support than now and
26:47
it is growing pretty much in the same way that the government is
26:51
getting less each day. Common sense shows that we are
26:54
being steered to disaster and that we should be buying food
26:58
locally that is nutritious, not imported from anywhere, using
27:02
chemicals which are banned here due to being carcinogenic
27:05
processes. We do not know and not know
27:08
what's in there. Is a boat being unloaded at
27:11
ports? I think it was last week on a
27:12
video or two, covered in pigeons.
27:15
Now if you didn't, if you got anything like that on a lorry or
27:19
on a British feed store, your entire load would be he
27:23
condemned it. That was being unloaded and
27:25
taken to a feed mill for human consumption.
27:29
You can't get much more double standards really.
27:32
So I think the public support is there.
27:37
Yes, it helped. They changed a little bit of
27:39
attitude towards seasonal eating.
27:41
But the biggest change is the supermarkets putting what they
27:44
do on the shelves in the name of profit and profiteering off you
27:49
and me. The average market now in the
27:51
supermarket is 3 to 400%. In the 90s it was 50%.
27:55
That pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
27:57
They took an older margin out for themselves and squeezed us
28:01
and you in the name of profit, that new sort.
28:06
It does. OK, now what's the answer?
28:08
Because the Groceries Code Adjudicator is supposed to be
28:12
the admittedly one man band, which seems completely
28:15
extraordinary bearing in mind the scope of his sort of
28:19
workflow. He is meant to be the interface
28:23
in, in sense of fairness between farmers and supermarkets.
28:28
Does that seem to you like a sincere effort by government to
28:32
resolve problems that may arise? It's designed to fail in my
28:36
opinion. It has no teeth.
28:38
Not enough teeth to make any actual difference.
28:40
The fines are too small to make a supermarket consider adhering
28:46
to it when they can make plenty more profit by not.
28:49
We'd be better off bringing in livestock boards, dairy, meat,
28:55
vegetable boards which are owning cooperatives by farmers
28:59
so that they can negotiate themselves with them a fair,
29:02
reasonable price like we used to in the 90s, rather than being
29:06
abolished like they were in the aim of slightly more profit and
29:10
then being taken over. So the farmers dictated the
29:13
price to by the supermarket. The farmer told you take it or
29:18
you get nothing and go back, Brooke.
29:22
OK, so, so how does this, how does this jungle get get sort of
29:27
turned onto a, a different course?
29:29
You know, again, we, we keep coming back to it.
29:31
We are where we are. Corporate power in the food
29:34
industry is absolutely monumental.
29:35
Corporate influence upon government is extraordinary.
29:39
And yet the vast majority of people, even if they think that
29:42
they are wanting to or actually supporting British farmers, are
29:47
more than likely shopping in supermarkets where they really
29:50
have no idea of the provenance of anything that they might be
29:54
choosing. What's in your view or indeed
29:58
across the the sort of networks, you know, in so far as farmers
30:02
to action was concerned? What is the view on that?
30:05
I mean, how does one begin to make meaningful progress that
30:09
has a, you know, has a benefit across the piece in terms of not
30:13
just finances for the for the farmers concerned, but also for
30:16
the landscape and all the other things you describe?
30:19
Well, to start with you ask people to die, buy direct as
30:22
much as they possibly can, whether that's from farm shops,
30:25
green grocers, butchers, local markets.
30:27
You actually know where the things have come from.
30:30
Not that it's just arrived in a plastic package and had a stamp
30:33
put on it. That's the quickest and easiest
30:36
thing you can do. There is groups out there now
30:39
which shows directories of where farm shops are, farms, markets
30:43
and places and helps people get involved in that.
30:47
We've pushed on councils and on policies and make it easier for
30:50
farmers to get planning permission to diversify so they
30:54
can do end of product sales, so they can convert some milk to
30:59
cheese or end products or sell some of it direct rather than
31:02
just for the process, the same butchery.
31:05
But in the long term we need farm cooperatives and we're
31:08
talking to farmers about it to build those cooperatives for
31:11
group negotiations so that we are having the talks with the
31:15
supermarkets and processors. And when supermarkets council
31:19
contract, dictate unfair terms, there's people there to help and
31:23
support them rather than them just left to be.
31:26
You take it and leave or you leave it.
31:29
Do you want to get recoup some money and make little profit or
31:34
a small loss but enable you to go again next year?
31:37
Or do you want to lose the lot and be forced to sell it for
31:40
livestock feed at a large loss? Especially in the case of
31:43
vegetables, it's very often done on the meat side.
31:47
Again, lobbying to get better prices on the dairy side.
31:51
Has the price of milk gone down now?
31:53
It's gone up, yet the dairies are having monthly now price
31:58
cuts per litre pretty much to the cost of production.
32:02
Is that fair? And again, and against their
32:04
so-called new conduct, no, it's not fair.
32:07
Yes, it is against the new contact board.
32:09
Is anybody doing anything about it?
32:11
No. So farmers need to be acting
32:14
together on group negotiations to make change, but that takes
32:19
time and cooperation. It does and, and this is what I
32:23
want to get to without I, I certainly, I'm not going to ask
32:26
you at all to, you know, expose any sort of personal
32:29
fractiousness that may have occurred in, in groups that
32:31
you've been working with. And, and in particular the, the
32:34
sort of disbandment of farmers to action.
32:37
But as you said yourself earlier, farmers are their own
32:39
bosses. Now this for for some is well,
32:43
it, it might be on the one hand enormously appealing.
32:46
Obviously with it comes a huge amount of challenge and
32:48
responsibility. With that in mind, and you've
32:51
just been speaking about cooperatives, this idea of
32:55
cohesion and unity. Just give us an insight into how
33:00
that can be achieved, given the background to it, which is that
33:04
farmers are gloriously independent in some ways.
33:10
It's quite difficult. It's unbelievably difficult to
33:14
do. Everybody has their own opinion
33:18
and things to be done differently, so it needs to be
33:20
done by majority vote and agreed upon a fair sequence of things
33:25
in which you wish to do that from the start.
33:29
And I think it's putting people together of like minds.
33:33
There's no point having beef farmers on a dairy farm group.
33:37
You need to have dairy farmers working together to agree on
33:41
what would assist them, what is a fair price, and then you vote
33:46
in representatives to do your negotiation.
33:49
You've got your red lines, that's what you want.
33:51
And if you need to do withdrawal of product or something, then
33:55
you've already got that work done in place before you start
33:58
your negotiation. The green upon, not after the
34:01
fact. Same As for arable, you need
34:03
arable farmers on there, people who understand the cost, the
34:06
figures and the commodities market.
34:09
Not just I plant here, I hope to get X amounts.
34:14
You need the boys who knows the figures on there.
34:16
You agree what you want, how you want it, what rules work.
34:20
And you then go to the mills and the cereal agencies and get that
34:24
sorted. And on the beef, you do the same
34:26
with the abattoirs, the crop growers for vegetables, you do
34:30
the same, but through the grocery board.
34:32
And you find a good lawyer system which is willing to go
34:36
after these people when it's required rather than just hoping
34:40
that the government will do it. But that's comes in time through
34:43
membership and through planning and 12 months to do it.
34:48
Since the IHT, yes, that has stirred farmers to want change,
34:52
galvanized the site, never before to do it.
34:55
The 12 months isn't enough time to do something like that.
34:58
It'll take 18 months really to get anything like that locked
35:02
in. And there's certainly the room
35:05
for it. You could argue it should be
35:08
doing being done by existing organizations, but so far it's
35:14
not being done in the money in which the grassroots farmers can
35:16
feel a difference. OK.
35:19
And and just so just so we understand completely what the
35:22
system you're describing, is that something that would be
35:25
done geographically? Do you mean the region would
35:29
have would have a sort of an ability to do that or you're
35:32
talking something that's more centralized or how, how would
35:35
it, how would it work? In an ideal world, you'd want it
35:38
national, so you've set it out like you do Young Farmers and
35:41
other organizations. You have somebody who holds your
35:45
meeting in each county. Why resume or in person?
35:48
You vote on your pieces and that feeds up to regional and then
35:52
national. And you write a policy and
35:55
everyone votes on it. All votes for your amendments,
35:58
and then you send them to negotiate for you all as a
36:00
whole. That way you've got proper clout
36:03
over the country rather than just one group with one lot of
36:07
processes. And if they don't like it, that
36:09
process will cancel milk contracts and increase the
36:12
number of contracts in a different area in the country.
36:15
If it's over the whole country, you've actually got a chance to
36:18
affect it. OK.
36:20
And without wanting to seem overly cynical, what do you rate
36:25
the chances of success on that, being able to achieve that
36:28
degree of sort of cohesion and coordination?
36:34
Anything is possible as they say, but it's how long is a
36:37
piece of string until you're able to achieve it and.
36:40
Yeah. So I suppose what I really mean
36:43
is, is do you think people are sort of quite there yet?
36:47
You talk about there being quite different views across the
36:50
spectrum of the agricultural community at the moment.
36:53
Is there, is there a sense in your mind at least, that the
36:55
situation has to get worse before it gets better?
36:57
Do people have to be pushed even further in order to realize that
37:01
the only way to get out of this is to?
37:03
Do you know a form of what you're describing?
37:06
I think it's getting pretty marks to the crux now.
37:10
People are going busts and struggling to survive.
37:12
Very good businesses are getting in very difficult situations.
37:16
And when you get into that and the farmers are getting as antsy
37:20
as the public are and what we're seeing, I said if it's people
37:24
need change and need to see things going forward in a
37:27
positive manner else you're going to see chaos instead.
37:30
And I. Yeah.
37:32
And that's that's certainly not going to be good for for
37:34
anybody. Now you've talked about the
37:36
support to the public, sorry from the public so far, which
37:39
has expressed itself really in several different ways.
37:43
People turning out at protest, people coming along to attend
37:46
meetings that you, you, you're describing that you have been
37:50
able to become involved in and, and that kind of thing.
37:53
There hasn't yet been at least a demonstrable swing in buying
37:57
behaviour that that would enable the sorts of changes that we're
38:01
talking about. But what can the public do to
38:06
assist with what it is that you're describing?
38:10
Because clearly that they are the, the key to all of this in
38:16
so far as they hold the, the purse strings.
38:18
I mean, the government spend our money in some respects via
38:24
subsidy, but of course that is coming in the other side.
38:29
I mean, you know, the, the public are going out to purchase
38:32
and consume the products that British farmers are making.
38:36
What, what, what more can they do in this in this sort of
38:40
communication chain? Well they've done a lot already.
38:44
You've only got to remember when people are talking about
38:47
Beauvier and they avoided buying it.
38:50
And as a direct result last week Arlo's cancelled their tests.
38:55
So as other groups cancel their tests so they are listening to
38:59
if farmers say avoid this because of XYZ, avoid it.
39:03
If you know there's local markets or farmers you can
39:06
support, yes support them. Don't really listen to the
39:10
supermarket advertising. You've got companies I wrote
39:14
names stating they back British the best and then importing
39:17
Australian beef including their adverts that they are the best
39:22
at backing British farmers while reduced for Christmas then
39:25
reducing the price to pay them. So don't take the supermarkets
39:29
and corporations at face value. Listen to what the farmers are
39:32
advising you on is my the best piece of advice is if you had it
39:39
from the butcher and he's got an avatar at the back, you're
39:42
pretty much certain that that beef, our lamb or pork has come
39:46
from a British farm because he ain't going to be able to afford
39:49
to import it from abroad. If you've had it from a
39:53
supermarket counter, good luck proving where it's come from.
39:57
We've saw that at Horse Gate Scandal and it's not a lot
40:00
better now. It gets brought here packaged
40:03
and the stamp stuck on it. And it's very difficult to know
40:07
exactly where that has come from or not.
40:11
Now just to consider the the impending sort of forthcoming
40:17
protests are coming up, which is really what sort of why I wanted
40:20
to talk to you exactly. Now we'll, we'll come on to the
40:23
specifics of that in a minute, but just a hypothetical.
40:26
Daniel Zeichner, when this was announced, said that the
40:30
estimated amount to be recouped from changing the threshold on
40:36
agricultural property relief was that it would raise about £500
40:39
million a year. Now to contextualize that the
40:43
National Health Service spends about that much every single
40:47
day. So in the grand scheme of
40:49
things, the amount that the government would raise from
40:54
scrapping the relief on inheritance tax at the moment
40:57
would be peanuts. But with that in mind, bearing
41:03
in mind that this has become a sort of single issue campaign,
41:07
if the government said right, OK, we've listened and we won't
41:12
change it, what then? I think you'll continue to fight
41:17
on profitability. They've highlighted the 'cause
41:20
that when farmers can't afford to pay for IHT on there, let
41:24
alone cover all their costs, and there's a severe problem in
41:28
farming, and they accidentally galvanized the farming community
41:34
into a regeneration of They have to be able to be profitable,
41:39
else there'll be nobody to farm or sustain them.
41:42
And if the government's going to keep forcing us out of business,
41:45
it's time to maybe take over their jobs ourselves and do it,
41:50
whether it stands for election or local councils and make
41:54
change or be more active, more vocal, rather than doing what
41:58
we've always done of tighten our belts, get on and do a few more
42:02
hours or keep pushing yourself harder to the grindstone because
42:07
we're pretty much the lowest paid industry per hour for the
42:10
time we put in, for what we get back.
42:12
Like there is no other industry like it and we have the highest,
42:19
well, suicide rate as a result because of the massive amount of
42:22
hours you are on your own, the sheer pressure you're under and
42:26
the tax and strain put on you by this government and earlier
42:29
governments before them. And something has to change.
42:34
It absolutely does, which which now brings us to what is going
42:37
to be happening during the week commencing 24th of November
42:40
described I think as a day of national unity.
42:46
Would you just talk a bit more about what that is sort of set
42:50
up to be and what you what your expectations are for that week?
42:55
There's multiple groups from all over the country.
42:58
We've got it by county, so they'll be doing it
43:00
independently by county. Still going out on the 24th,
43:04
some on go slow, some on banners, some on meeting the
43:09
public in public places, all just so in that 12 months on
43:12
we've not gone anywhere and if anything we're stronger than
43:15
ever. There's more people standing up
43:17
to the plate and saying enough is enough, this cannot continue.
43:22
And then there's going to be another protest on the 26th in
43:25
London and I hear they've got some quite colourful things
43:28
being approved by the police for them to do while they're there,
43:32
which will definitely make him very interesting media which I
43:36
don't think anyone has seen before, not in this country.
43:40
OK. Are you, are you going to give
43:42
any more detail on that or are you going to keep that under
43:44
wraps? Well, let's just say if it's
43:46
correct, what there's been put around social media for proof.
43:49
Today you may see some planting in London.
43:54
OK, right. All right, so, and let's say you
43:59
know, you're you're watching, listening to this, you're not in
44:02
London. Realistically, the chances of
44:04
you getting there on the 26th are slim.
44:07
How can people go about finding out specifically more about this
44:12
and and sort of expressing support and getting getting the
44:15
sense that they are doing something meaningful?
44:18
If they see it on social media, watch it, like it, share it on
44:23
there. If you've got an MP and you do
44:25
not like the way things are going, write to them and tell
44:29
them he didn't like it. Tell them that this budget is
44:32
not sustainable. The key fact here, which is
44:35
recognized worldwide, is that for every pound invested by an
44:39
agricultural business, it generates 7 LB in the wider
44:43
economy. Because we're losing money and
44:46
because we're people are thinking of devaluing their
44:48
businesses. Now they're not improving that
44:51
they're not by machinery, they're not investing.
44:53
Therefore the economy is crashing.
44:56
We've never seen so many agricultural businesses, so feed
44:59
suppliers, machinery manufacturers, builders,
45:01
merchants going bust because we are not not improving and
45:05
investing in the businesses. And what's happened as a result,
45:08
growth and GDP is crashing. It's not a case of just getting
45:13
money back for I think it's 23 1/2 hours.
45:16
The NHS would run off that figure generated by.
45:19
It's a case of when we're not making money, other businesses
45:22
aren't and they're going bust. This then reduces their tax
45:25
special. When farming is successful, all
45:28
other industries are successful and economy grows producing more
45:32
tax. So stop biting the hand that
45:35
feeds you and destroying your own tax income which is
45:38
detrimental effect on the public purse, council tax and all local
45:43
authorities and the public directly through the cost of
45:46
food. Help farming survive and thrive
45:49
and the entire country survive and thrive with you.
45:53
You tell that to your MPs and tell them not to back this
45:56
budget and then see what happens because that's when you get real
45:59
change. And that's the best way you can
46:02
support not just farmers, but yourselves and future
46:05
generations to come by stabilizing our nation and
46:08
making it prosper again. By working together.
46:13
Well, let's hope that that message is received far and wide
46:16
and and that people in the first instance are at least becoming
46:19
better informed about this. Because I think, you know, over
46:22
the course of this discussion so far, you, you've explained so
46:26
many things that I think the general public are woefully
46:29
unaware of in the relationships between farmers and supermarkets
46:34
and government and local politicians and even amongst
46:37
each other. Now just just to, I don't want
46:40
to necessarily sort of bring the mood down, but a lot of what
46:46
we're considering in so far as land is concerned, and this is
46:51
bearing in mind roughly 70% of the United Kingdom is in private
46:55
ownership or, or or in trust with bills in Parliament like
47:01
the planning and infrastructure bill where there's a proposed
47:05
compulsory purchase at aggregate.
47:07
You know, we're effectively without developers premium for
47:09
agricultural land. The Land Reform Bill is going
47:13
through in Scotland which is absolutely specifically
47:15
targeting anybody with a holding of more than 1000 hectares and
47:20
in effect it's setting the conditions for what many will
47:24
say has already started but a land grab do Do you see that
47:29
this is an overt statement of the intent to grab land and and
47:34
if So, what for? I would say it's a land ground
47:39
grab and I'd say the IHT is the stick to force it on forever
47:44
because if there's not enough profit for you to continue
47:46
farming you're forced to sell it.
47:48
Only any people who can afford to buy it is a large
47:50
corporations which are backing and pushing these bills through
47:55
mostly for carbon capture, rewilding, tree planting and
48:01
other solar farms for example. So again it's a case of follow
48:05
the money. It's very difficult to stop it
48:10
but all you can do is try. And I'm not quite sure on the
48:14
best way to answer that situation, but I'd rather try
48:19
and fail than stand by and do nothing.
48:23
Yeah. Well, fair enough entirely.
48:25
Now, one of the difficulties with any of these sorts of
48:28
things that become contentious. And I think we can perhaps agree
48:32
that that a lot of what we're talking about has the potential
48:35
to be contentious because of the predication of government policy
48:39
on the idea that let's say there is a climate emergency or
48:42
there's a biodiversity emergency because of climate change and
48:46
all these sorts of things. That the, the issue as far as
48:50
the public are concerned is that a lot of people have been led to
48:53
believe that such a thing is the case.
48:55
And that therefore it follows that, well, OK, we shouldn't eat
49:01
meat, we shouldn't eat dairy. This, that and the other.
49:05
So the important thing obviously in in conversation is to not
49:09
find yourself banging heads with somebody, but indeed to find
49:13
that sort of sensitive approach where you're not going to turn
49:17
it into a conflict and indeed help somebody to see how the
49:22
situation actually is. Now, do do you have any advice
49:26
in that area as to sort of how to engage people in
49:28
conversation, how to make it more meaningful, more relevant,
49:32
and indeed to to sort of suggest that people actually have been
49:34
deceived? It's a difficult subject to
49:38
normally try to highlight the difference between grass fed
49:42
locally and arable fed and imported from abroad, especially
49:46
on food mothers. And also the fact that if
49:49
they're really concerned about the environment they wouldn't be
49:52
building more runways for planes or they'd be considering
49:55
reducing that. It seems madness to be
49:58
increasing in industry, which is by far the largest Pluter.
50:01
And they've also stated they've miscalculated airport emissions
50:05
if I remember correctly by two Ferrers per flight because
50:09
they've always made the assumption of plane flies in a
50:12
straight line rather than the curve and it's actually triple
50:15
the amount of fuel they use on transport.
50:17
The fact they can buy carbon credits off corporations because
50:22
they're owned by the milk companies, not by the farmers,
50:24
to make them carbon neutral and then claim that farmers are
50:28
causing environmental doubt is completely absurd.
50:32
Otherwise they wouldn't be buying the carbon credits.
50:34
So that's the easiest, the most sensible way to highlight that
50:38
if farming and food production in the UK wasn't green, they
50:42
wouldn't be buying carbon credits from farm food
50:45
production to sell to dirty industries such as airports and
50:49
industry. OK, Yeah, got it.
50:53
Now, Now on the on the sort of what people can do front,
50:56
because the UK call them audience in particular is very
50:59
passionate about sort of becoming engaged and and active
51:03
and and what 1 can do. Now people have very different
51:06
domestic situations, some living rurally, some some urban in
51:11
terms of engagement with farmers.
51:15
Well, you could answer this perhaps personally or indeed
51:19
within a regional or network context.
51:22
Are you sort of open to people coming to you and saying, look,
51:27
we would love to have a supply of, you know, whether it be beef
51:32
or vegetables or, or whatever it is in order to, to set up those
51:37
relationships that you describe. You know the importance of
51:40
engaging the public, How, how would people be best advised to
51:43
go about that within this, you know, the areas that they live.
51:48
Join a join a farmers group on Facebook or social media,
51:52
there's lots of them about and literally pop in.
51:55
Or even just put common on Facebook saying I'd like to buy
51:58
X locally. Does anyone know anyone who
52:00
sells direct? Is there a local market nearby?
52:02
Normally boxed meat direct from farm is cheaper than you will
52:06
get it from a farmers marketing place.
52:08
It's far cheaper than the supermarket and a lot better
52:12
quality on assign for vegetables and things on it.
52:15
Join an allotment group. There's lots of those about on
52:18
there and help grab it yourself. It does good for the environment
52:20
and it's good activity for the kids to learn about food and
52:24
bond the family. But message farmers or go to an
52:29
open farm Sunday and if you've done very good things with that,
52:32
I'm sure more of them will come and see a bit more of how things
52:36
are done for yourself. But yeah, message a farmers
52:38
group. They're always happy to help and
52:40
talk about their produce and what they do and where you can
52:42
get it. It's about rebuilding a
52:45
community. In the old days it used to be he
52:48
knew everybody because he bought everything with everyone.
52:50
Now we're all a little segregated through using your
52:54
phones but you don't talk to your neighbors.
52:56
It's a bit more getting back to, even if it is through social
53:00
media, but speaking to the locals, you know where you can
53:03
get it and getting a bit of good old fashioned person to person
53:07
conversation going and getting your products while you're
53:10
there. Yeah, at least learning where
53:12
you can. Yes, indeed.
53:14
Yeah, absolutely. Face to face being being totally
53:16
critical to that. Now, obviously we started the
53:19
conversation by describing the disbandment of FARMS to Action.
53:23
Where does that put you in so far as the deliverable effect
53:28
that that you can have? It might be a little bit too
53:30
early to answer that, bearing in mind this is very new news.
53:32
But but do you see that you will forge ahead and perhaps create
53:37
another, another sort of network or what's the plan in the in the
53:40
wake of what's happened? The the network is still intact.
53:44
All of the WhatsApp groups, all the farmers groups are still
53:47
there. Ours and others is purely the
53:50
fact that the limited company has been dissolved.
53:54
We're not going to try and push it through as an entity there.
53:58
They won't be using the same logo due to that as well, but
54:01
the farmers can still chat independently by county and
54:05
organise. I will still be going to
54:07
supporting the independent action on the 24th.
54:10
I'm going to try and go to London as well.
54:12
I'll still be attending the conferences and I'll still be
54:15
working with the other groups and protest groups which have
54:18
always stayed as protest groups and not even attempted to form a
54:21
new union to and it and maybe somebody else would wish to take
54:27
up that mantle. But at this time, when tensions
54:31
are high and individuals might do things which would cause
54:34
problems, it is best not to be in that situation.
54:38
Yeah, I know that entirely. Fair enough.
54:40
And that's that's completely understood.
54:42
Now, this isn't absolutely not a criticism because let's face it,
54:45
social media is a complete nightmare for for almost
54:48
everybody except for those who seem to enjoy it.
54:50
But one of the difficulties is finding, finding information.
54:56
Do do you have somewhere that you would advise people to go
55:00
whether or not they're on social media?
55:01
Cause of course not everybody is how does one find out what is
55:05
going on? I mean, we are, we are clearly
55:07
publicizing what's happening in the in the week 24th of November
55:12
onwards. But where would you point people
55:14
towards if they are feeling that they're not within their
55:17
immediate circles necessarily aware of of all of this?
55:22
Well there there's several groups like dig on the dig on in
55:25
Wales, which is enough is enough.
55:27
You've got all farmers, local county farmers group, farmers
55:31
Unite, E Anglian farmers all by region.
55:34
If you type in farm protests on any social media you will find
55:40
multiple protest groups names. Come up with pictures of it and
55:45
follow your local 1, the nearest one to you and see what's
55:48
posted. And when you see something of
55:51
interest, read it, share it and pass it around your friends.
55:54
That's probably the best way to do it.
55:57
OK, Alan, that's terrific. And now just to, to wind up, do
56:00
you yourself have a, have a sort of an outlet, social media or,
56:05
or a website or anything that you would direct people towards
56:08
to find out a bit about sort of what you're going to do?
56:11
Well, I'm on social media on TikTok as Alan the structure
56:16
farmer. They're happy to follow me if
56:18
it's something I think really needs to get out.
56:20
I normally send it towards Gareth Wynne Jones, one of the
56:23
larger influencers. So have a look at those guys as
56:26
well. And yeah, I get normally posted
56:31
by other groups too if there's something that I'm supporting
56:35
action as much as possible, whether it's in person or
56:38
speaking on days or attending it.
56:40
So just keep your eyes out. Said I'm not going to stop
56:43
fighting, I'll just keep pushing as I have as an independent and
56:46
support those which want to do action to improve our country
56:50
and the situation in British agriculture.
56:53
Excellent and links to all the things that Alan has just
56:56
mentioned will be in the notes below this interview.
56:59
But that has been a comprehensive insight into the
57:03
situation at hand and indeed the way out of it, at least in
57:08
theory. So it's up to anyone listening
57:11
to this to pass it on and indeed act on the various suggestions
57:16
there. One, one might say, but I I will
57:19
offer my sincere thanks to Alan Hughes for joining me today.
57:23
Alan, it's been a pleasure to talk to you and a real insight.
57:26
Thank you very much indeed, and indeed good luck to you.
57:29
Thank you very much for having me, have a good day.