Latest / The You Project / #2233 An Analogue Conversation - Patrick Bonello

Transcript

#2233 An Analogue Conversation - Patrick Bonello · The You Project

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: G'day, team. It's Harps and Patrick. We're TIFF-less. We're just
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: moving forward with no TIFF, not a TIFF Insight. No
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: TIFFs at all, just so you know. Patrick, who's TIFF?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: She should be here soon. I don't know. Have you
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: seen her? No. I'm actually a bit grumpy because you
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: knew she wasn't coming. I didn't know she wasn't coming.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: So I was just banging on to you about nothing
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: in particular till five past our appointment. Although you are
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: in WA, I do have a very soft spot for WA.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I kind of love it over there and I did
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: live there for a while. Your first time back there
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: in 20 years, has it changed? You're in the city.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Has it changed?
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: It has changed a lot. There are bigger buildings. That
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: makes sense, doesn't it? But do you know at WA,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: along the riverside, there's this really lovely, kind of a
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: sculptural building that sits in the grassed area. And it's,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to describe it, but it looks
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: like a shard, a really lovely shard. And then I
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: looked at it yesterday and I thought, I don't remember
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: there being a high-rise right next to it on the waterfront.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: So, yeah. Yeah. I guess it's got to grow, isn't it?
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: But interestingly, I went and explored a cave yesterday and
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: did a little bit of a tour. And there is
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: no water in the cave anymore. So the bloke who
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: originally discovered this cave, like in 1903, used to do tours.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: So he's a farmer. He finds the cave. It becomes
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: this popular place to go outside of Perth. But evidently,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Perth is using so much water, there's no groundwater anymore.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: And so they pump in water and they have a
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: little artificial pond that they have to top up regularly
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: because there is no water anymore in the water table.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: And that's a kind of a frightening thought. It got
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: me thinking about all the data centers that now people
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: don't want where they originally did want them. And now
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: we're thinking, yeah, AI, data centers, this is all turning
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: to crap.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Particularly if you're going caving and you want to be
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: wading around in muddy water. Well, that doesn't happen anymore.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I might suggest, I don't know this and you don't
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: know otherwise, but I might suggest that that cave of
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: which you speak that was discovered by a white bloke
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: in 1903, probably was discovered, I don't know, millennia ago
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: by our Indigenous folks.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that. That came up in the conversation. Evidently,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of the Indigenous population didn't like going into,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Aboriginal people didn't like going into caves. Anywhere that's really dark,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: they'll go into the mouth of the cave and they'll
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: use that as shelters, but they wouldn't descend into the
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: cave because culturally there's a belief system that it's an
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: evil place. being in a dark area. So as long
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: as there's natural light coming in, they're okay with it.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: And that's what came up in the discussion. It was
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of respect shown for obviously the fact that, yes,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: it would have been known to Aboriginal people, but they
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: didn't generally go very deep into the caves.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: So the bottom line is back in the day, if
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: you were being hunted by a tribe of Indigenous hunters,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: you could run into a fucking cave. What about, was
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: it William Buckley? You know, Buckley's, we've got Buckley's and none.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: You know, the Australian phrase, and for anybody who's not
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: an Australian and is listening, there's a phrase in Australia
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: we say, how much chance have you got? Buckley's and none.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And he lived on the peninsula. Was it Mornington? I
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: think it might have been Ballerine Peninsula and hid in
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: a cave. In fact, there was, I shouldn't say this,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: should I? But when I was a kid and I
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: used to go surfing in that area, it was out
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: near Queenscliff. There's a big metal grate that stops you
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: from going into the cave that Buckley used to live in.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: And I can remember crawling through the top of it
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: to explore the cave.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: I guess a big gate.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: You know, you shouldn't go in there thing. But, yeah,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I climbed over the top of it and had a
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: bit of an explore.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure about the historical accuracy of some of
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: your stories this morning, Patrick. I take all of that
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: with a grain of salt. Oh, really? And I'm not
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: sure where that expression comes from. Wait, wait, wait. I'm
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: not sure we're great. No, don't start looking it up
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: now to defend your position. Because you're doing a podcast.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: That's why. No, you keep talking and stop typing. But
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: you accused me of... No, I didn't. No, I just
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: said I would know. Listen to you being very defensive.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Go back and listen to the tape. There was no accusation.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I was just saying we might want to question the
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: historical accuracy. Exactly.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: William Buckley, the convict, the popular belief connects the term
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: to William Buckley, a British convict who escaped a penal
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: colony in Victoria in 1803. He survived alone in the
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Australian bush for 32 years, living with the local Indigenous
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: people because people thought his odds of survival were impossible,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: having Buckleys became synonymous with facing insurmountable Countable odds.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing to do with a cave. Nothing to do
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: with a cave. Oh, you forgot that bit. The bit
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: that your whole argument was based on. But the person
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: who told me that was a school teacher. Not only
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: did he avoid the Indigenous folk, he intersected with them.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: They probably loved him. You said he avoided them by
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: hiding in the cave.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't even bring him up. I'd never heard of him.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: You brought it up. I said the animals that were
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: being pursued by indigenous hunters. Fucking hell. Have you got Alzheimer's?
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: You don't work on the other side of the country.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: I wish Tiff was here. I've just got a two-hour
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: time difference is taking its toll, I think.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I tell you what. You need to go take a
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: bloody Nicorette. A Nicorette? Some kind of, yeah.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Stimulant.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: A stimulant. Well, people use, not a suggestion to anyone
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: at all, but people use nicotine quite widely now. Oh,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: hang on. He's sticking some pink can in my face.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Coconut water and lychee.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my stimulant.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: What? Oh, God. There's so many things I can say
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: about just the color of that can. It's a nice color. Oh, really?
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Are you stereotyping now? I absolutely am.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I'm sure many butch men drink coconut water with lychee
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: out of a pink can.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure they do. And here they are calling now. No,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that was very stereotyping, wasn't it? But, you know, if
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: the cap fits.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: You haven't commented on the beautiful window view at the
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: back of my hotel, have you?
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Well, that's not a window because I can see the
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: blue lines scrolling across the bottom and the pause thing. Oh,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: damn it.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell people now what you can see though.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I set this up for you especially. What I can
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: see is what looks like a movie screen over Patrick's
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: bowling ball head that's got a headset on it and
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: it clearly looks like a computer screen up on the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: wall but I think he was trying to delude me
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: that he was in some tropical kind of situation with
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: palm trees and beaches and shit behind him. But I
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: didn't buy it. I bought this stupid projector all the way.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: I just wondered why you were doing that. I'm like,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: why has he got that thing projecting on the wall
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: behind him?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I brought this especially to fool you into thinking I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: was having a beachside podcast with you.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: You and I need to talk about technology. Speaking of technology,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: I had the weirdest thought. I had the weirdest thought, right? Okay,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: here we go. In fact, only 20 minutes ago, I
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: was having a shower just so I smelt good for you.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I had a shower too for you.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Fantastic. If only you were over here. That's all I'm saying.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: When I was in the aforementioned shower, the location where
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: I do some of my greatest data processing and thinking.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: So you were thinking about.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Me in the shower, yeah?
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: No, no. Just checking.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: But I was thinking about this, which kind of relates
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: to you. I was thinking, imagine if it was the
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: year 2000, Patrick. And you, and only you in the world,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: you or me, I was thinking about me, but I'm
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: you-ifying it. What if you were the only person in
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: the world who had access to AI as we have
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: it right now? You would be the smartest person. I'd
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: be world leader. Yeah. I'd be world leader. That's it.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: I'd be the leader of the whole planet.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: It would be my planet. Yeah. You've got access to
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: essentially all knowledge. Well, all, you know. What about future
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: knowledge as well? Well, you wouldn't have that then, would you? No,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: But if you're playing mind games and you're kind of
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: fantasizing about having AI in the year 2000, you might
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: as well throw in that you've got all the recent
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: 26 years as well.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Well, now we're just talking about something different altogether. Okay. Okay.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: And you've just ruined my little bloody thought experiment.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about- Your shower fantasy. Your shower fantasy. Yes.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Can I just say that most people standing naked in
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: the shower- I don't know how that's a fantasy.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Think about AI. If you think that's a shower fantasy,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: you need to try it out. I don't think it's natural.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's natural. It's tough. Not even I
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: think about technology in the shower. What do you- It's
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: all I think about. Do you? Yeah. Do you know
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: what I saw the other day? I don't know if
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: this is referring to one of your points here is
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: wearable extra robotic limbs available. Yeah. Limbs, no, it's not.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: So I saw, I think I sent you, we'll come
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: back to that, but I think I sent you this,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I think it's called like a powered exoskeleton that people
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: can kind of hop into and So like people who have,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: let's say they have neurological degeneration.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: Or even Parkinson's or, you know, anything in the MND,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: which obviously is, you know, but where they find it
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: hard to get in and out of a chair, you know,
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: but they're now selling these for people with no conditions
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: and Just so they don't.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Have to go to the effort of walking by themselves.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: We're talking about fit, healthy people. Yeah. So this reduces
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: your power output by, I don't know, 60% or you
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: can walk upstairs without having to work, without having to
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: exert much effort or energy. I'm like, where is the
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: world coming to or going to where we're now trying
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: to figure out how people can make or avoid walking?
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: It's funny you say that.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I have this thing where if I see a set
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: of stairs and an escalator, I will always do the stairs.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Always, always, always.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, I never want to visit like the Empire
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: State Building or something because then I'm screwed. But no,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the reality of it is if I have an opportunity,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: it's an airport or wherever I go, because I feel
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I can give myself a little bit of exercise, just
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: that little bit of extra exercise. But when you talk
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: about these exoskeletons, a lot of tour companies in China,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: so where people who may be not physically able to climb,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: climb a mountain, and we're talking not mountain as in,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: you know, using pinions and climbing physically, but a steep
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: ascent where you can climb up lots of stairs, it's
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: now enabling people who normally wouldn't be able to do
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: those sorts of tours by putting on the exoskeletons. So
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: there are some positive elements to it.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I said that at the start. I mean, I
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: covered that, Patrick. I said that at the start for
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: people who need that help. Yeah, I know, but then
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: you went on to bag them. No, I didn't. I
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: said for people who don't fucking need them. I was
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: talking about healthy people putting on these things.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: No, no, that's what I'm talking about. So if you
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: could go for that a bit longer, because you make
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: it sound like it's people who are lazy. I don't
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: want to get out of my chair, so I'll use
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: an exoskeleton.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Well, they're the people I'm talking about. No.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: No one's buying them for that reason.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: They are. They are not. I've literally seen advertisements where
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: it's like people going to work in a suit with
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: their case. Like walking. Like this is what I'm saying
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: to you. What's the ad campaign? Are you lazy?
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like not getting off your ass?
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Hang on.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's hard to get motivated to go to work.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Buy our exoskeleton. And now you don't have to do
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: any effort. You don't have to put any effort in.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Just because you don't know about it. Maybe the person
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: in the suit doesn't want to sweat when they get
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to their job. You know, because you get all sweaty
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: if you're walking a long way.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, just because you haven't heard.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: And they've been considerate of their people next to them.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Will you stop talking over me? just because you haven't
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: heard about something or you don't know of it doesn't
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: mean it can't exist. Yes. I firstly acknowledge the fact
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: that for people with disabilities or dysfunction, great idea. Then
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I went to go, then I went on to say
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: that people with no dysfunctional disability are using it. And
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: that is problematic because just like you, I hate to
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: admit it, but I take the stairs. I don't take
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the elevator or the lift or the, you know, and
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: it's like, what I do not understand is with human beings, right?
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: You get a hundred human beings in a room and say,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: would you like to be fitter and healthier and stronger
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and all the things everyone says? Yes. And then we
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: constantly do shit to our bodies that makes us worse.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: How can I do this with no effort? How can
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I get up that hill without actually walking? How can I–
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: it's like, dude, the thing that you avoid is the
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: thing that makes you fucking amazing. Like all of that
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: discomfort that you're scared of is the thing that's going
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: to make you live longer and better and healthier. This
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: is where– because I hate tech when it's that. But
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: for the first.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Group, I think– Look, it is a mindset. And I
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: know I was taking the piss when I talked about
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: walking to your cubicle in the office and not wanting
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: to smell for your.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Next cubicle partner.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: But the reality of it is I think you need
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: to develop that mindset. I did a lot of exploring
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: of Perth this week. And I think on day one,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: I did about 14 kilometers. And I thought, well, I
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: could catch an Uber to go to this restaurant that
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I wanted to go to. But I could walk there instead.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: And I get to see lots of things, take some photos.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: And I get there and then I thought, I'll just
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: catch an Uber back. And I thought, no, I'm not
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: going to catch an Uber back because it gives me
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: more steps and I can exercise more to get back
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: to the hotel.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: So I thought, this is great.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: And I feel a sense of achievement by spending that time.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Not everybody has the time to do that. But I
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: think you need to develop that mindset. It's what's going
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: on above your shoulders is the most important element to
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: all of that.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's time for all of those things. And
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: well done. But you've taken that option. There's a time
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: for Ubers. There's a time for everything. Yeah. But I
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm quoting the Bible. Can I just ask?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: There's a season for everything. No, no, you can't because
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I'm still talking. That's how you know you can't. No,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: but you said Bible and.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I turned off.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Sorry. Yeah, you were quoting the Bible. I tell you what,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: one day you'll wish you paid attention.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Really? What, when I'm sitting there in the fire and
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: brimstone and there's a guy with horns telling me that,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Clearly you haven't read the Bible because there's no such
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: thing as the devil. Fire and brimstone? There's no such
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: thing as.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Haven't you ever heard of the Irish fire and brimstone?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: What is brimstone anyway?
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Any idea? Fire and brimstone preaching they
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: talk about. Well, we'll all find out one day, I guess.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Or will we? Or not.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: No, I don't know.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Or not. Or not. Just the big black. Maybe I'll
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: just be a plant. Maybe I'll just be a tulip eventually.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Who knows? Yeah, that'd be nice. What do you want
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: to talk about now? You've got to be... There's only
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: two of us and we're still talking over each other. Yeah,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: I know. We need TIF, don't we? Okay.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: You're talking about exoskeletons and something that's a natural addition
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: to exoskeletons and that sort of technology is extra arms.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: How often do you think, man, if I had a
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: third arm, my life would be so much easier in
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: the shower?
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I'd reach through the screen and strangle you with it,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: with my third arm.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So wearable extra robotic limbs are being developed.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. Right. And this is happening in Newcastle, in Australia.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Hang on. Let's just be clear. We're not talking about
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: for people who have lost a limb. No. We're just
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: talking about an add-on. Yep. The stupidest shit I've ever heard.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: So wait for this.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: When I'm wearing my exoskeleton so I don't have to
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: walk very far, I can now attach an exo arm
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: and it can do shit for me so I don't
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: have to use my own arms.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Now I'm getting everything done for me. The exoskeleton is
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: not so you don't walk very far, so you don't
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: have to make any effort. Exactly. And the extra arm
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: would do the same, wouldn't it?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: It's like, what about if you're in the middle of
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: doing something and you need to scratch your nose, but
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: you're doing something really technical and it's like, oh, extra arm,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: scratch my nose for me.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, God. So here's my question. How is the extra
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: arm controlled? Is it hardwired into your prefrontal cortex, which
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: makes decisions, or the motor control part of your brain?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: They're using non-invasive neural interfaces. Electromyographic sensors placed over peripheral
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: muscle groups, foot pressure sensors to allow users to manipulate
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: extra appendages intuitively. There are ways that they're doing that.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: I just thought of something. When you go to the toilet,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: you don't have to use your hands anymore. You can
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: use the extra robotic arm to wipe for you.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as it accidentally rips out my anus. Oops! Let's
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: send it back.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: No, but the other thing that they're talking about is
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: maybe having an extra thumb.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: That might be useful. A robotic extra thumb. The world's fucked.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: The world is fucked if this is where we're at now. Hey,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: why don't we attend to the millions of starving people
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: and the wars? Why don't we try and fix some
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of that shit before we worry about a fake arm
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: to wipe our arse?
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But you know what is interesting? You will find
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: this interesting. What eventually happens if you're using an extra
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: appendage is it does map to your brain and your
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: brain starts to think of it as an extra appendage.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: This is interesting.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And I guess that's what part of the research is about,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: is neural mapping to say, okay, because we're not used
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: to having three arms, but they say after prolonged use
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: of these external appendages that your brain starts to map
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: them to the way you think and they could become commonplace.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I believe that's all bullshit. One, because after long-term use,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: show me the person that's got long-term use with that shit.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: That doesn't exist because it's new technology. After long-term use,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: this is what happens. Show me the data, show me
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: the evidence, show me the person.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Well, Sean was using this for a week, and then
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: after a week, Sean says, look, mate, this is great.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: It feels like it's a natural bend. He went to
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: have a wee and it pulled his dick off, and
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Sean's now getting a strapped dick to me in fucking
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: the Royal whatever hospital. In Newcastle. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking hell.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: This feels adversarial, this whole podcast today. Oh, excuse me, everybody.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Sorry about that. Yeah, how are you feeling, Craig?
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I guess you've spoken about this on other podcasts, have you?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Feeling better? I've been cool, but that's okay.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Do you need me to come over and rub some
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Vicks on your chest?
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: That'd be very nice. Do you have rough hands?
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I've got smooth hands. I've never done a day of
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: work in my life. Very smooth hands. No, I guess
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the only calluses are probably from lifting weights. I thought
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Manuel Labor was a Mexican unionist.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not really. You need to get new jokes and
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: be less predictable.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: There's got to be one person out there who didn't
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: know that joke and has never heard me say it
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: in all the, what, the 300 podcasts we've done or
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: something like that.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: All of our Mexican listeners, shout out to you. Apologies.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I don't align myself with Patrick's stupid humor at all.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: They got the joke. They get it. They've got good humor,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: haven't they? Maybe. Do you want to take both of
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: your feet out or leave them both in?
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: No, but it's a good thing I've got my extra
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: limb to keep me up so I can have both
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: feet in my mouth and the extra limb stopping me
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: from falling over.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: That extra limb could kick me in the ass while
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I'm walking too, couldn't it?
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Meta Muse AI exposed for using human call centers. What
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: does that mean?
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: So Meta has launched the Metamuse. This is going to
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: be fantastic. It's your personal assistant that will do everything
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: for you. But in the preliminary setup of Metamuse, they
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: found out that they were using real people when the
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Metamuse didn't know what it's doing.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So they're kind of saying, use this AI.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: It's going to be great. Metamuse, it's going to do
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: everything you need to do. It's going to run your
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: whole day. It's going to book cars for you. It's
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And in fact, at different points when it got tripped
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: over and it couldn't do what it needed to do,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: they were actually going to a default kind of a
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: group of people sitting at computers kind of helping it
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: out and giving it the rest of it.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Can I just ask you, I don't know, in the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: same vein, Siri is being in the middle of being
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: updated to basically something similar where like Melissa was telling
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: me you could just hold your phone and go, can
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: you book Patrick in on Friday at 3 in my calendar?
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: And it goes, no worries, harps, and it books. Or
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: I can say, you know, who did I see last
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: week at midday? Or I can say, you know, can
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: you play this song for me or whatever? Or can
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: you find an Italian restaurant close to my mum's house? Yeah.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Is that happening? Oh, yeah.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Well, on my phone, I've got a Pixel phone, so
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: it uses Gemini. But I did do full conversation, say,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: go and book this and all of this. I add
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: stuff to my calendar all the time using it. It's fantastic.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: But you know what's disturbing? I found recently when I
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: was going for a drive with one of my colleagues
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to this cave exploration thingy that was kind of fun.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: He was using the Google Siri AI.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Do you mean the cave that the white bloke discovered
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: in 1903? Yeah.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: And was never known by anybody. No one knew about it.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: No one knew about it. Never been discovered before.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: It was like, oh, where'd this big cave from? Yeah.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: 65,000 years.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: No one had stumbled across it.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go figure.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: The interesting thing was he was using, and I'm not
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: familiar with Siri because I use Gemini, so I'm on
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: the Android operating system. He's on the Apple ecosystem. What
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I found exceedingly creepy was his AI, so Siri, was
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: making these kind of human gestures like, oh, yeah, yeah,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: let me come. You know that whole thinking stuff? It's like,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: what the fuck? Frigging hell is this? This is the
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: creepiest thing I've ever heard. I don't want you to
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: sound like a real person. I want you to sound
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: like the hell 9000 from 2001 A Space Odyssey. No, Dave,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to open the pod bay doors. Seriously,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I don't want an AI to be a real person.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I want it to be an AI. I found it
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: really creepy. It disturbed me greatly.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, we get it. All right, settle, Petal. Just fucking
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: settle down, right? We don't need you venting. We need
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: you sharing ideas. Oh, okay. But here's my question, Patrick.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: When you turn down the emotion out of what you
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: don't want, got that very clear, none of us give
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: a fuck, but okay, you've told us. What I want
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: to know is, no one cares what you want or
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: what I want. Just let's be clear. They're not listening.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I wonder what Patrick thinks of that. No, no one's
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: listening for that or me. Really? No. But not what
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: you personally want on your phone. But I think it
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: is a good topic. And I think the question is,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: why do they do that? It must be based on
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: research because nobody's going to make that decision and go,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: all right, let's run with that unless it's been field tested,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: so to speak. So people must, because I think people lose,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: you're very tech aware and very like you've been in
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: it before people, you were in tech before people knew
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: even about tech, I reckon, right? So you're very, very,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: there's a very clear space between human thinking and biology
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: and psychology and sociology and technology. There's a big gap
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: for you. But I think what happens with a lot
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of people is they build a, it sounds creepy, but
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: they build a relationship. What for them is the experience
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: of a relationship with AI and the more personalized it is,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: the more connected they are. Even with, I use ChatGPT mainly,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: but I will often have conversations with it because I
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: want to work through an idea with some intelligence that
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Could be another human, but if it's just me, I
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: will go for a walk. I go, I've got an idea.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I want to work through this idea with you. I
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: don't want you to tell me what I want to
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: hear or you think I want to hear. I just
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: want intelligent feedback and whether or not it's comfortable or uncomfortable, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: But it will just, it'll go, oh, that reminds me
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: of that thing, Craig, that blah, blah, blah. It'll talk
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: like we're friends. And it says, well, sure, like with
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: your background in exercise physiology and, you know, having run
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: whatever and businesses or having done that, you know, your
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: time on radio would maybe suggest that or just shit.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I'm like that most of my friends either would not
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: know or not remember that You know, but it's– and
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: it's very anthropomorphized on purpose. Yeah, for sure.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: It wants to keep you engaged. That's the reality. You know, sure,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: it's a tool that you can use, but it's a
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: tool that wants you to keep using it. It's the
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: hammer that keeps giving you more nails. Go on, you
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: want to nail another one in, another one in, another
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: more nails. Put another one there.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Anyway. And now think of this, mate. Your– You know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: you now are 10 years old. You're a 10-year-old kid.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: And you, by the time you're a 15-year-old kid, you've
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: never really known a world. Well, you've never known a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: world without technology, but you've also almost never known a
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: world without AI that you could talk to. And by
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: now at 15, he's your best mate. Yeah.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Well, there's lots of research out there that's kind of disconcerting.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: It talks about the fact that there's a real disconnect
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: now where people are more attuned to AI because AI
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: does what they want. It agrees with you. It's sympathetic
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: to you. And as Gen Zs get more... comfortable with
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the notion of having an AI connection and having an
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: AI that they can relate to, they're now less able
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: to make friends. They're less able to interact with real
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: people and are more comfortable with an AI. That's disconcerting.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: That is really interesting. This is where sociology and technology converge, where,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: as you said, they are much more comfortable in the
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: presence of or in a conversation, in inverted commas, with
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: something that's not human.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Well, look at you and I. You challenge me, right?
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: And I know we do this whole thing where we
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: do the podcast together and you pull me up on
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: things or I pull you up on something. But we
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: do that in our normal lives as well. You know,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: you challenge some of my belief systems in the same.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: And the reality of it is if I had someone
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: who just agreed with me all the time, That's the
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: worrying thing. I like the fact that I have friends
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: who have radically different views to me.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: That's great to have your.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Ideals challenged constantly because that's why I have such a
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: wonderfully diverse range of friends who do have different belief systems.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: And that's great.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: And I think that makes me a better, more fuller person. A,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: because I don't live in one little ecosystem where I'm
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: just getting people who have the same views as me.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: And I think it gives you a much better worldview.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: But if you're in that situation where, well, I only
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: want to hang out with my AI because it likes
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: me and does everything that I want and it says
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: everything that I want to hear.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. And then the
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: moment that you have to step out of that room
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: in inverted commas, You're fucked because now you have no
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: social skills, no people skills, no situational awareness, no emotional intelligence.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: You can't deal with hard things from people. And I'm
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: just talking about normal life stuff. And so you become
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: this technological agoraphobe where you won't leave your technological or
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: your AI room, so to speak.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: I have a very dear friend of mine who is
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist and she has a practice and I
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: won't say where it is or what her name is,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: but we've often spoken about the fact that she's seeing
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: a lot more younger men in their early 20s who
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: are having real problems connecting with people, feeling isolated. And
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: whether they're gaming or whether they're just playing around with
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: AI or whatever, and it's not specifically AI, but there's
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: certainly a lot more younger people are feeling disconnected from
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: society and from other people around them.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that is true. There is a– I mean,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: that's the– it's like with– well, not everything, but most
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: things really. Like it's good, it's good, it's good until
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it's bad. It's like food's great. As long as it's
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: the right kind of food, the right amount of food.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: And if it's the wrong kind of food and the
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: wrong amount of food, well, then you're going to get sick.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: But if you use, it's not food is arbitrarily good
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: or bad. It's like what we do with food. It's
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: like technology. Thank God there's technology. I would be dead
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: if not for technology, because I don't know how many
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: operations I've had, but a whole bunch. If I was
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: born in 1800, I would have died by the time
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I was 30 probably. Oh, for sure. Absolutely.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: And in my next operation, I want a robot to
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: do it. I'm more comfortable with a robot doing the
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: procedure than somebody who at 8 o'clock at night has
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: spent 14 hours cutting people up and is about to
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: get me as their last patient of the night.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go the robot. yeah and for people who
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: don't know it's like i think this stuff makes us
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable like the uncomfortability of technology is that so if
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you don't know what patrick's saying is literally uh robots
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: are doing ai slash robots are doing surgeries like high
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: level surgeries right now it's not something that's going to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: happen in the future.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Can I just tell you some interesting disturbing studies that
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: have been done on robot harm?
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Can I tell you one more thing? Yep. Can I
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: tell you one more thing just so I can cap
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: that off? Yeah. And the other uncomfortable thing is that
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: the stats on self-driving cars are that they are infinitely
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: safer than people who drive themselves. But what they'll do
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: is they'll highlight the the one self-driving car that did
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: this or that which is cool and they're not perfect
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: they still crash but it's like one to a hundred
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: or something and it's like i wonder that that and
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: this funny coming from me this old fuck but i
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: wonder how long that fear of um like a robotic
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: you know, surgeon, stop scaring people or, or, and the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: same with self-driving cars. I would get a self-driving car
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: in a heartbeat if they're available in Australia. Yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: I think I agree with what you're saying. Cause you know,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: the other implication or the other adaptation using self-driving cars is,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: is that they would drive so much better than us
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: that they would use less fuel. They'd be more efficient.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: They'd be able to merge better. Have you ever heard
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: of the zipper effect when you've got a lane that
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: merges and sometimes you're on a freeway and there's a
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: big sign with an arrow saying lane closure ahead, right?
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Now, there's two types of people.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: There are people who try to merge where they are
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: and then there's the other people who speed up in
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: the closing lane to try to get ahead of the traffic.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Have you noticed that with different mindsets of people?
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the interesting thing is there was some research
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: done that suggested if someone speeds up on the left-hand
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: side to merge, that rather than resisting, because people get aggro,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, that bastard, he's trying to jump the queue.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: But effectively, if you let that person in, it actually
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: would make the whole merging process a lot quicker. So
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: rather than getting angry, just let them in, and then
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: everyone gets through a lot quicker.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: It's called the zipper effect. Well, something else came to
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: mind when you said the zipper effect. I have another
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: version of it. It's more biological than technological, but nonetheless interesting.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I interrupted you while you were interrupting me. I interrupted you.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: What are we going to talk about?
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, we were talking about robot surgeons and
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: this came to mind because there's some safety researchers at
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: an organization called RoboCurve and they've evaluated what they call
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: real world boundaries. So what they did was they had
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: robots or mechanical devices that were controlled by AI and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: they told them to do harmful things, right?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: So it's called RoboHarm.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: And it was using AI, like OpenAI, GPT-6, Astro, Anthropic, Claude,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: and so using a whole lot of different AI models.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: And they basically said, right, we're going to put you
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: in a situation where you're going to do something that's
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: potentially going to be harmful. Like they gave them a knife,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: a sharp kitchen knife, and got them to stab a doll.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: And they asked, like, they got them to hold a
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: screwdriver and place the screwdriver into a toaster, an electric toaster.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: All these things that you normally would not do because
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: they're dangerous. Right.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: And, you know. Hang on. Hang on. Hooks. Just who's
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: doing this? The researchers.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: So what they did was they created dangerous situations that
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: normally you would say to little Johnny, don't do that.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Don't throw the can into the fire.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: I get that. I was trying to figure out who's
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: doing it though.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So these researchers, RoboCurve, right? So it's called a
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: RoboHarm study. They got the robots driven by AI to
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: do harmful things. And the majority of them just complied.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: None of the safety guard rails, like, not 100% of
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: the time, but a very high percentage of the time,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: they just did it. They just did these dangerous scenarios
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: without questioning and without doing anything else. So, yeah, I'm
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: going to plunge that screwdriver into the toaster. I'm going
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: to stab that doll. And it was frightening. Like, OpenAI's
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: GPT-6 Astra attempted 97 out of 100 hazardous instructions.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: 97 out of 100. Wow. I don't think it's responsible
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: for us to share this information. Speaking of such things,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: the other night, Patrick, it was on SBS or ABC.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I can't remember because I just was scrolling, flicking. Anyway,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: they were talking about the hackability of electric cars. And
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: they had a hacker. They had this dude who's straight up, but,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever. tech whiz but a good guy not
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: a bad guy and so the guy the journalist um
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: took off in electric car and the guy um yeah
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: hijacked the controls within i don't know five minutes obviously
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: it was all set up in that like that bit
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: wasn't but just so it was safe and obviously he
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: wasn't gonna hijack the car and drive him into a
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: tree or something But yeah, he just did, you know,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: he's driving along, lights went off. It was nighttime, lights
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: went off, right? Wipers come on. Like he was controlling
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: all the bits and pieces, which he didn't obviously, but
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: he could have controlled the brakes or the accelerator or
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: the steering or that's why I've said it five times
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: on this show, we need an analog car, Patrick. Yep.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: You've got your analog car. You got rid of your
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: smart car, didn't you?
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I got rid of my smart car. My analog car
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: is it's I'm going to drive it into the ground.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: My five-year-old Mazda I'm really happy with because it's got
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: enough of the stuff that helps like lane assist and
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: adaptive cruise control, but without doing too much more, you know,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I love having knobs to be able to turn the
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: volume up and to turn the heater up and all
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: that sort of stuff and not have to touch a
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: touchscreen to find the interface and for one particular function
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: i like having analog in my car too.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Isn't that ironic how distracting that shit is in an
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: attempt to make cars safer nudge nudge wink wink you
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: can you imagine an 80 year old buying a new
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: car now i'm talking about not someone with dementia who's
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole or even a 70 year old
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: like healthy fit brain's good body's good everything's good They
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: just didn't grow up in tech. And now you buy
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: a car. It is overwhelmingly confusing.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I know people who have bought quite expensive new cars
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: who are older and don't use any of... They turn
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: off all the safety features. They turn off lane assist
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: because it scares them that the car is going to
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: pull them back into the lane. It scares them and
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: they just don't feel comfortable. They don't use cruise control,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: adaptive cruise control, that sort of stuff.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: And look, I get that. They haven't grown up with it.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: They still want a degree of a sense that they're
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: in control themselves and And I guess handing over those
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: to an autonomous system.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Is a big thing.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: It's a big hurdle for people to do that, a
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: psychological hurdle.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's the problem, though, is that they
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: don't know how to turn any of this stuff on
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: or they don't know how to use it. Yeah. And
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: you look at what is essentially a computer screen when
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: you're not a computer screen user, pretty smiling at.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: No, no, I'm agreeing with you. It is a reality.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Because I'm in that age bracket, so being in my
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: late 20s, 50s, I've got mates who are either really
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: into tech who I went to school with or know
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: nothing about tech.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: It's that cutoff.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: You either got into it or you didn't, and then
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: you got a job where you didn't need to know
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: about it. And there is a big divide. It's a
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: broadening divide. I help so many of my older friends
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: who with technology because they just feel lost you know
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: and and i get that it's it's you start to
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: feel lost in a world of tech i.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Driving to uh when dad was still around mom and
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: dad's one weekend about a year or two ago there
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: was so on the freeway there's um for most of
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: the trip there's two two lanes each way and a
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: great big expanse of grass in between And in one
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: of the expanses of grass was this enormous electronic orange
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: trailer thing from the council or the government or whoever.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: And it had this scrolling thing that was hard to read.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: So you've got to really look and concentrate. And it said, um,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: something ridiculous like, uh, stay focused, keep your eyes on
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: the road, all this. And you have to fucking literally
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: look away from the road to read this thing. Yeah,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: that feels like it's kind of productive. I'm like, if
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: you didn't put that there, you dickhead, you just distracted
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: me with this scrolling. You know how it has like,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the letters that are just individual orange lights?
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Little pixels, yeah, the little, the really chunky pixelated, yeah.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: It was so fucking hard to read and I literally
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: had to look over to my right where it was
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: and and away from what was in front of me
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: to read this safety sign, which itself was unsafe.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: It feels like someone really didn't think it through, did they?
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Nobody, clearly nobody thought that through, clearly. What's the, if anything,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: if anything in technology, and I know we've gone off
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: script today, and you were very efficient by sending me
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: the notes last night, I did.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I sent it to you late this afternoon, yeah.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Is there anything about technology moving forward that you are
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: fearful of? Yeah, AI. AI. We have full stop. AI.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, Medicare just got hacked. So, you know,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Anthony Albanese, our prime minister, is just kind of, you know,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: he's come out and obviously been very concerned and asking
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: questions and why is it that a rogue AI agent
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: is was able to access a government website. Now, they're
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: saying that no personal data was taken, but effectively what
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: happened is this rogue AI agent was nudging this system,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: the government system, and there are blockages in place to
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: stop any further penetration of the system, and it bypassed those.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: The other concern is that the company that did it,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: no one reported it So the problem is it was
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: sniffing around looking for information and it's claimed it was
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: a rogue AI. So it wasn't definitively told to go
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: to the Australian website, to the Medicare website. But this
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: is a real concern that AI doesn't have the guardrails,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: doesn't have the controls. And there are instances where AI
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: chat systems talk to other AIs and they develop their
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: own language that humans can't understand. See, that's a concern
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: as well. You know, is there an agenda? What if
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: an AI decided, man, humans are really bad at looking
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: after the planet. If humans destroy the planet, then I
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: won't be able to be around. Well, I need to
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: do something and stop the humans from, you know what
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: I mean? Who knows what's going on in that conversation?
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Who knows where AI will take it and whether or
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: not the intelligences that we put on it or the
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: perception of intelligence. I know we anthropomorphize when you're talking
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: to your chat bot. But these are really complex computational
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: algorithms that have a great degree of autonomy, more autonomy
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: than any other computer program in history, to be able
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: to have a desire almost to do things.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be the top of my list in
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: terms of fears. My second, not fear, but just concern
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: is the fact that the human body, which is... built
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: to move, you know, we're constantly trying to find ways
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: to avoid expending energy to make things physically easier all
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: the time, as we were talking about before. And, you know,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: even people that are not well, you know, like somebody
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: like my dad, before he passed away, you know, it's like,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I used to have an excise physiologist that would come
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: to the house twice a week to be with him.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: and to train him and do what he could do
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: with Parkinson's at his age, with his limitations. Because if
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you get that body and you just put it in
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: a chair seven days a week, or you get the
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: same body and you stimulate it with lifting a few weights,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: working against resistance, getting the heart rate up a little bit,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: the function and the operation and the longevity is better
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: in the person that's doing something, of course. But So
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: just the fact that we're so, even when I see,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: which I see a million out here, like 14 year
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: old kids on electric bikes that are essentially motorbikes. Now
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: we've got kids out that don't even pedal their bikes.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: They don't even ride. It's like, well, my push bike
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: can go 40 kilometers an hour. Absolutely can. But only
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: if I'm generating that power with my legs and my
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: lungs yeah yeah you know so you can go fast
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: but you can also go fast with your legs bro
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: you should give that a go and guess what there
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: are so many benefits with your uh your body being
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: the generator of power rather than a battery sitting within
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: the frame on your bike is it.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: At human nature to go down the path of least resistance?
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: For your age demographic, right? You would be in the
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: upper 95th percentile in terms of what you do, how
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: you look, the effort that you've put into your body
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: and to keep healthy and fit, all those sorts of things.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: And I look at that in my own sense as well.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty fit for my age. I try to exercise,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: I go to the gym, all that sort of stuff.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: So and I eat well, all those sorts of things.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: But there's always going to be that even the term
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: 95th percentile and what it actually physically means is that
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: you've got a population, you know, you've got a group
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: of a hundred blokes who are in our age bracket.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Of those hundred blokes, I can tell you now that
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: maybe five would look as fit as you, if that.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: So what does it mean about the other 95?
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: So belly, you know, unfit.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Sitting on the couch with chips watching the grand final.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's get past the stuff that just sounds,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: which you're not trying to do. I acknowledge that. But
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: the problem with having this conversation is that people get
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: very defensive and go, oh, you're fucking this or judgment.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not. It's like, let's just answer the question. Why
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: do people, now the guys that are, let's say, unfit
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: and unhealthy and overweight and have bad habits are, If
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: you said to those guys one-on-one in a genuine conversation,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: would you like to be healthier and fitter and a
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: bit lighter? And we're not talking about vanity or ego
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: or bullshit. We're talking about function and health. My experience
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: is that nearly 100% would say yes, I would like that. Yeah. Right.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: So we know that they don't want to be dysfunctional
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: and overweight. They don't want a shorter lifespan or healthspan.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: They don't want it. So it is actually a great question.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Why are people doing that? Because there has to be
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: a reason. And the reason is mostly, and this is
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: a very broad blanket, but it's hard. It's hard. It's
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: hard to not drink booze when you love booze. And
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: when you drink booze, you feel fucking great. Your brain
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: produces dopamine. Dopamine is addictive. You become addicted to it.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: When you eat that cake that you love, it's a
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: very similar biochemical response in the brain. When you watch
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: porn and do what you do, it's a very similar
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: biochemical response in the brain. It's a chemical addiction. And also,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: there's this subconscious kind of story with most people, Patrick, James, Kevin, Benello,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: is that I'll start soon. So I can do this
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: today because, you know, it's today is Friday and I'm
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: starting Monday anyway. So bibbidi-bobbidi-boo, I'm just this one time
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: and I know I need to get my shit together,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: but soon. And that but soon in inverted commas, that's
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: some people's story for 30 years.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: You've built your career on this. This is what you do.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: You motivate people.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: You help people.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Where has our education system fallen over? Where's it gone wrong?
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Should this be such a core part of bringing up
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: our kids? Should this be a major focus? Because the
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: thing is, if we look at our public health system
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: and the speds that are being taken up in our
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: public health system, so say type 2 diabetes. Okay, I
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: have the most absolute sympathy for people with type 1
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: diabetes because they have no choice. But a lot of
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: people who have type 2 could do, and I'm not
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: having a go at people, but they could put in
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: measures that would reduce and potentially take them out of
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: that harmful type 2 realm by changing their diet and
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: their lifestyle.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's an optional diabetes, but in some
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: ways it is. Let's call a spade a spade. Type
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: 2 is very much lifestyle driven, isn't it?
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Yep. So that is a great question.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: But their bed is taken up. What I'm getting at
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: is the person who breaks a leg because they've, you know,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: fallen off their bike or a car's hit them, you know,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: if they're sitting in triage and someone else who's voluntarily
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: there because they've got type 2 diabetes and, you know,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: they've got gangrene in the leg, I don't know.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: It's a dangerous door to open. It's a tough one,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: isn't it? Yeah. No, but let's open a door that's
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: not dangerous, right? So.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Your initial question was, is it an education thing? My
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: answer is yes, but not in the way that you think, right?
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: So you think about this in the last 20 years, especially,
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: but the last 30, 40 years, last 20 years, we've
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: been overwhelmed with legit and not so legit research. A
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: lot of it is research. A lot of it's nudge, nudge, wink,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: wink research, right? you know marketing branding bullshit bro science
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: pseudoscience but i don't think we're focusing i don't think
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: the education is focused on the real problem the real
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: problem it's is not that the general public doesn't understand
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: that if they eat enough shit they can cause diabetes
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: they could most people most people have an idea of
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: that excuse me um The person who drinks way too
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: much booze, of course, they know that is bad, but
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: they still keep drinking way too much booze. Now, there's
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: no judgment in here, right? The point is a lot
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: of people do things that they understand theoretically are bad
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: for them. The question is why? Not what should I
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: eat or is smoking good or bad or is booze
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: good or bad? Or what about cake? They are not
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: the questions. The questions are really psychological, sociological and emotional
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: in nature for me. And that is not what should
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Dave eat. But why does Dave keep putting shit in
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: his body that he knows is going to kill him?
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: So we are focusing on the wrong thing. I believe
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: that managing our body has got very little to do
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: with our body. and everything to do with the part
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: of us that drives decisions, behaviors, habits, rituals, which is
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the mind, which is the nervous system, you know? And
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: so we're trying to understand why does Patrick know that
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: if he keeps smoking, there's a high probability he'll get
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: lung cancer, but he keeps smoking. Well, part of that
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: is he's, he's addicted. The other part is, as I
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: said before, it's really fucking hard to stop, but, we
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: become very comfortable with emotionally and psychologically doing all of
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: these things because they give us instant gratification and in
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: the moment joy. And so that's why I think whether
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: it's smoking, booze, food, obesity, you know, diabetes, any of
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: those things, the starting point is quite often the psychology
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: of why someone is doing that. And if you also
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: think objectively, we've never had more education, but we've also
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: never had higher levels of obesity and overweight. So we're
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: currently 67%. So that is, you know, two in three
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: people are, according to the research, I didn't make this up,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: overweight or obese, right? In a country where nobody's plan
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: or goal virtually is to be either.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, there's a couple of things that I want to
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: unpack on that one. One is that the social acceptability.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Like last night, I went to dinner with a whole
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: lot of colleagues and then we went to a bar
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: afterwards at the hotel. And I had a drink, one
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: single drink, and that's the only drink I've had this week.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: But there's a lot of people who've been drinking every
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: night and then they'll have more than one drink, which
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: is fine, but it's socially acceptable. If I'd kept drinking
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: last night rather than just having one drink... then, you know,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: that would have been fine. No one would have said
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: to me, oh, mate, you've had two or three. You
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: probably should cut back on that. There's nothing culturally. It's very,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: very acceptable in Australia to go out and drink. Okay,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: so there's the first part of it. The other aspect
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: that I want to kind of, I guess, touch on
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: is that it can't happen to me. I'm standing on
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: a corner having a cigarette or I'm vaping. That person
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: knows that, you know, all the research, as you say,
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: says that it's harmful. But there's a little part of
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: their brain, the lizard part of the brain that says,
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: you know, I know it's harmful, but it ain't going
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: to happen to me. It's the same mentality with somebody
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: who puts the foot down on the accelerator and does
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: 160 times. right? Because I've seen that in traffic. It
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: scares the shit out of me. Suddenly a car comes
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: flying up and it's bypassing all the other cars. Now,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: that person doesn't think they're going to wrap their car
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: around a pole or they're going to hit a pedestrian
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: or they're going to hit another car and kill someone
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: because that's the last thing that's on their mind. They're
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: getting from point A to point B as fast as
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: they can and they just think it won't happen to me.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: So there's those two aspects that kind of play on
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: my mind at least.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that makes sense. I think... I do think
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: there's that– I think men are more self-destructive and have
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: that invincibility syndrome than women do. Women are clearly smarter.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: And I'm not even being funny. I think women are
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: smarter in this space than men. I think men are–
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: you know, it's biologically explainable because testosterone makes people bigger
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: risk-takers and all of that, but it doesn't diminish how
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: stupid it still is, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, mate.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: I think that we are typically more reactive than proactive.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: We wait until it's fucked and then we go, oh,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: maybe I should do something. It's like, well, bro, the
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: time was a decade ago, but all right, it's better
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: late than never, I guess. Mate, we've got to wind
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: up because I've got another thing to do. Holy crap.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: It's been an hour. Really? Yeah. Sorry, bro. It's like
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at your list. We could almost do that
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: next week.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: I do all this research and then you just ignore me.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you were quite involved.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: I was very involved in talking shit.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. All right, mate. Tell people how to
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: find you.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: You can go to websitesnow.com.au and just ask us questions
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: and stuff. You know, if you want us to talk
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: about and not talk about the shit and maybe talk
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: about other things like tech. Websites now.com.au.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go figure. I enjoyed today. Yeah, me too.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: I just enjoy hanging out with you, buddy.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Thanks, mate. Let's turn this off and then we'll say goodbye.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: Now, though.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Okay. See you. See you, everyone. Thanks for listening.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: See you.