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What Psychedelics Can Unlock That Traditional Therapy Can’t · The Keri Croft Show

• 0:00
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• 1:01
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• 1:06
  Keri Croft: Hey there, you beautiful badass.
• 1:10
  Keri Croft: Welcome to the Carrie Croft Show.
• 1:13
  Keri Croft: Welcome to the Carrie Croft Show.
• 1:15
  Keri Croft: Thank you.
• 1:15
  Keri Croft: If I'm doing weird things, it's because I'm getting stuff for social media.
• 1:18
  Keri Croft: I'm not like on Instagram while you're talking, right?
• 1:21
  Keri Croft: I've already done that.
• 1:22
  Keri Croft: I've already talked to you.
• 1:23
  Keri Croft: So you were brought to me by one.
• 1:25
  Keri Croft: We have to take a moment here.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:27
  Keri Croft: Angela.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: The incomparable.
• 1:31
  Keri Croft: I, when I say love isn't the right word, I am a stan of Angela.
• 1:36
  Keri Croft: Did you happen to see her episode?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, I haven't.
• 1:39
  Keri Croft: So I met Angela way back and was totally taken by her beauty, her hair, her presence.
• 1:46
  Keri Croft: She is truly this like a she's so magnetic, but in like this low-key, just oh, I don't need to tell you.
• 1:54
  Keri Croft: But anyway, love her, and she is now working with you in some capacity.
• 1:58
  Keri Croft: How are you guys working together?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So she approached me a few years ago as part of her uh public health degree program, and she was looking for opportunities to connect with work that was inspiring to her.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, we were right in the middle of conducting a clinical trial of psilocybin therapy for veterans with PTSD.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a perfect fit for her to contribute to the work and then that evolved into a position, and now she's our clinical trial coordinator for our program and also helps with development and administrative and operations things and just kind of extraordinary human to have connected with our work.
• 2:30
  Keri Croft: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:31
  Keri Croft: And your work is at the epicenter of so much conversation, controversy.
• 2:36
  Keri Croft: Uh, but I think more importantly, it's very important work that you're doing to help evolve the way people are treated in the world, right?
• 2:44
  Keri Croft: Specifically trauma.
• 2:46
  Keri Croft: I've never done anything like psychedelics yet.
• 2:48
  Keri Croft: I have so many conversations with people who have.
• 2:51
  Keri Croft: It's such an interesting topic.
• 2:52
  Keri Croft: I mean, interesting isn't even the right word, but so you're an associate professor at Ohio State, and that's your focus.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my focus has been, I've been studying psychedelics and psychedelic therapy for about 16 years now.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I started actually in Bowling Green at Bowling Green State University studying MDMA use and trying to understand how we can make sure that people are safe and taking care of themselves when they're using these substances out in the real world.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then later that evolved into a clinical interest.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a clinical psychologist, so a lot of my research is focused on wanting to understand how to help people.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: How can we help them better?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Where do our current treatments fail and how can we evolve our mental health system?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really where psychedelic therapy came in for me.
• 3:30
  Keri Croft: How did you what was your interest in it in the first place?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have a personal interest.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my I grew up in a family of veterans.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Both my parents served in the army and my grandparents also served in the military.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I grew up with this firsthand knowledge of trauma and what that looks like.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, not surprisingly, flash forward, you know, the reason why I chose veterans with PTSD as my first trial here at Ohio State was because of this family background and because of my lived experience as a trauma survivor.
• 3:57
  Keri Croft: Did you have one family member that was does one stand out above the others in terms of trauma and how they were impacted, or was it all kind of equal?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my mom in particular, I think just you know, knowing that relationship between a mother and a child is so strong, but also seeing her struggles with trauma and in relationships and and substance misuse and and her difficulty in finding care and finding support that she needed to be the best mom that she could be.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that really, I think, prompted me as a young adult to pursue a passion for helping others and and to really try to figure out how how to do that.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: What I didn't know at the time was that I was also really trying to figure out how to heal myself and heal the things that I was maybe struggling with as a result of growing up in that environment.
• 4:40
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 4:41
  Keri Croft: I mean, having four having that type of strong military background had to be, especially with your mom.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lots of rigidity.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was just really difficult for her to connect, you know.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and you I would say I probably had one of the strongest relationships with her.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it was still difficult, you know.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of difficulty in understanding emotional connection.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And with a mom who was pretty, you know, guarded, that became quite difficult.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was difficult for me then to figure out well, how do I do that with other people?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do I learn how to connect and not only to myself and to my family, but also to potential partners and and friends.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and that's I think what initially drove some of my curiosity around not only psychedelics, but just around the mental health profession was oh, well, here's a profession where, you know, it's really based in relationship.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's based in this understanding that part of what's healing for humans when they're suffering is to connect with someone, whether that's a therapist, a friend, a loved one.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: But in the mental health context, that therapeutic relationship becomes central to the healing process.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Psychedelics, I think, just go beyond that into a deeper connective process that allows a deeper potentially transformational process to unfold.
• 5:48
  Keri Croft: You know what I'm thinking about?
• 5:49
  Keri Croft: I'm thinking about because you don't know a lot of women who are in the military.
• 5:53
  Keri Croft: And it's funny that Angela Douglas was in the military.
• 5:55
  Keri Croft: That's another thing that was probably very interesting to you.
• 5:58
  Keri Croft: But like being a woman, even just in business, right?
• 6:01
  Keri Croft: There's like you traditionally you have to put on this strong front and you know, the vulnerability, the feminine side, like you're supposed to mask all of that.
• 6:09
  Keri Croft: And I can only imagine the military is like that times 10.
• 6:13
  Keri Croft: So was your mom, do you think that her being challenged emotionally and like very rigid was a result of the military, or was she always like that too?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it was pre-military.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when we when I look at my like grandfather, for example, and his influence on her and the influence of what you just described of being a woman in the society, you know, she's a boomer, she's at the age of like, you know, growing up in the 60s and 70s.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so the idea of the empowerment that was, I think, denied generations of women and that have been fighting for that since then, it's like there were already these layers of masking in order to conform and in order to find success in whatever way that was available to them.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then you add the military on top of that, which is its own mask and its own, you know, set of armor, literally and figuratively, that then compounds those things.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when I think of the masks that people wear, whether it's a woman or not, in society, often I think psychedelics help us to un-tether those masks.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: They help us go inward and find who are we actually on the inside and how can we bring that person to the forefront.
• 7:18
  Keri Croft: So where you're at right now is kind of the epicenter, like you described it as, you know, sometimes you're in sort of the scientific component, sometimes you're mentoring, you're interviewing.
• 7:28
  Keri Croft: So you really are kind of at the epicenter of everything that's happening in psychedelics.
• 7:32
  Keri Croft: So for somebody who is at home and is just kind of curious, or maybe someone who's judgmental.
• 7:36
  Keri Croft: He's oh, what are we doing now?
• 7:38
  Keri Croft: We're all doing shrooms and we're gonna, you know, I've even had my own like funny thoughts about all these like privileged white males now going out and like finding themselves in the mountains with all, you know, it's it, but I understand that there are real therapies and benefits to this, and I I believe in it for people.
• 7:54
  Keri Croft: What would you say to someone though who's kind of dabbling and half judgmental and half trying to figure it out?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I try to relate it, especially for those naysayers or skeptics who maybe don't know about psychedelics or maybe only know a certain frame of psychedelics from their youth or from the media.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: What I try to help people understand is that there are a lot of ways in which we experience like alternate states of consciousness, just in daily life, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: People engage in yoga, meditation, massage therapy, I like massage love, any kind of like holistic experience that alters your capacity to engage with your inner world.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think about like going into massage, your eyes are closed, you're kind of spending time inward, there's someone who's working on your muscles and your body.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: That different type of perspective can bring about relaxation.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: It can also bring about physical improvements.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yoga can do something similar.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about psychedelics, it's it's a similar kind of thing, but with the emotional system, with our inner mind, the way in which we think about the world.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it engages these different levels of process kind of similarly as an entry point that someone might find through a different mechanism.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So these all I think live in a similar menu of options that allow people different access points to who they are on the inside.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're hoping to do with psychedelics is catalyze that process so that people can find healing.
• 9:09
  Keri Croft: And everyone, right?
• 9:10
  Keri Croft: Not just people who are privileged or who have X amount of dollars.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ideally, this would be accessible to anyone who needed it.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, that is a wonderful ideal, but in a society where medical access is something that is privileged, that is a quintessential challenge for this new treatment, similar to every other treatment that comes through this process of approval.
• 9:31
  Keri Croft: You see, you know, in your mind, you have actual people, like you have names, stories, and you understand at the ground level what these medicines have done for specific people.
• 9:41
  Keri Croft: So without giving any personal information, can you talk through like some circumstances that you've seen?
• 9:47
  Keri Croft: Like person X was this and dealing with this, and this is how this impacted them, just so we can understand like the real power of what's going on, just at a very ground level.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, yeah, one of our veterans in our recent clinical trial was someone who, you know, for years had spent isolating from life, isolating from their family, isolating from their children.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: They were in a relationship.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: They had two small kids at the time that they came into the study, but felt really disconnected, felt almost as if like being a father was perhaps maybe even a mistake, that they shouldn't have done this in the context of being so traumatized and struggling so much.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And through the course of the trial, you know, we explored these difficulties.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about some of these challenges in the context of their PTSD.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: But what was really fascinating is their experiences in the psilocybin session revealed to them these different parts of themselves.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: They were able to gain access to these really loving, connected places that were not about avoiding the vulnerability that emotions and children and families bring, but actually moving towards that.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: About the side note is their PTSD was in remission after the trial.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I say it's a side note because what was really exciting for us is about a year later, when they were done in the in the study, they reached out and said they were just getting out of the room where their wife gave birth to their third child.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he said it was, if it was not for the psilocybin therapy, he never would have approached the idea of having another child or even diving in more deeply to being a father.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the real world things that actually I think make this treatment more exciting.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, PTSD improved for this person, but what was more exciting is they were able to live their life more fully and engaged in a way that they did not think was possible.
• 11:23
  Keri Croft: Are you in the rooms?
• 11:24
  Keri Croft: Like, do you see people?
• 11:25
  Keri Croft: You witness.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm a clinician in the studies as well as the person running the trials.
• 11:30
  Keri Croft: See, that's fascinating to me.
• 11:31
  Keri Croft: You get to watch the unfolding of all of that.
• 11:34
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's really special.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, as a therapist, you know, I started my career actually before psychedelic work.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I started my career as a substance abuse counselor, and I worked in addiction treatment settings and with adolescents and adults.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I was really struggled with in that setting was how the treatments didn't seem to work for everyone.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And people would come in and, you know, my boss would say, Oh, well, you know, we give them the standard of care, we're giving them the opportunity to find healing.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then it wouldn't work for someone.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And they would say, Oh, well, when they're ready, this will work.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: But until then, they can't stay here.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they would kick them out because they broke a rule or they they were using still.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: That never really made sense to me.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are we kicking people out of treatment or saying that the treatments are failing when this person is just exhibiting a symptom of the condition that they first came into treatment for?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing happened at the VA where I worked for several years as well.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I would go to my boss and say, Well, this treatment, this, you know, this gold standard treatment that the government is saying should work for this veteran, it's not working.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they would say the same thing.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when they're ready, when the time is right for them, this will work for them.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it never made sense to me.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are we pathologizing the person who is struggling as if it's their fault that the treatment's not working?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why aren't we turning the lens towards the treatment and saying that this treatment is ineffective and that we need to do something more to help people?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so that brought about this deep interest in not only, you know, conducting research, because I wanted to find solutions.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to find answers.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to look and see what I what could be discovered, but I also wanted to be in the room with people.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I also wanted to be able to apply those things to people with that human connection.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why this was such a great fit for me.
• 13:04
  Keri Croft: So, you know, my, and I I mean, this is my experience with like psychedelics is clearly antiquated.
• 13:11
  Keri Croft: It's back in, you know, circa like 2000.
• 13:15
  Keri Croft: I mean, I dabbled in shrooms a couple of times, like on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, whatever.
• 13:20
  Keri Croft: Totally different story.
• 13:21
  Keri Croft: But, you know, you can have a bad trip.
• 13:22
  Keri Croft: And so my in my mind, and I know this is like completely controlled and all those things, but when you're in the room with someone and something's going sideways, like how do you how does all that happen?
• 13:33
  Keri Croft: Like, do you see someone like having a really hard time and it's like scary for them?
• 13:37
  Keri Croft: Do you just let them move through it, or are there ways where you kind of can get them back on track?
• 13:41
  Keri Croft: Or does that not even happen in this?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it definitely happens.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even if you think about for the anybody who's actually been in, you know, just typical psychotherapy, you know, not necessarily, or even yoga, and I use that as an example because a lot of people do yoga, but people don't do therapy.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: You sometimes you might feel things that are difficult in your body if you're trying to get it learn a new pose, if you're trying to be in therapy, talking about a new emotion that you're trying to understand, like those can bring about things that are challenging.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Psychedelics can also do that.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: The thing with psychedelics is that they can amplify those difficulties in a way that either in your body or in your emotional system can seem overwhelming.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: In the therapeutic context where you have trained professionals to help you, that is actually something that we can help you move through, just like a yoga teacher can help you move through that into getting closer to a pose, just like a therapist can help you work through an emotion to get to the other side of it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: So in psychedelics, even in that amplified, you know, quote unquote bad trip place, we can help people navigate through that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's another reason why, you know, the work that we do is not just providing a psychedelic.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: We actually spend eight hours with people before we ever give them a psychedelic in a therapeutic process.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that eight hours is designed to help build, build a relationship with them, you know, build a foundation of trust and rapport, but it's also time where we spend helping them learn skills and strategies that we want them to use in the psychedelic session.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: What happens if X, Y, or Z comes up?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: What happens if you are having a difficult experience that you want to flee from and you can't because you've taken the medicine and now you're here for the day?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: What are we gonna do about that?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: We we spend that time, and I think that time is critical in making sure that people are safe.
• 15:12
  Keri Croft: Yeah, because there's no like safe word or button you can press to like that.
• 15:15
  Keri Croft: That's the that's the thing too with me.
• 15:17
  Keri Croft: I'm like, okay, if you had like a button that I could have here where I'm like, okay, I'm pressing this and like we're gonna go back to like this never happened, obviously that's not the case.
• 15:25
  Keri Croft: That's what kind of trips me out about it.
• 15:27
  Keri Croft: But I guess the whole point is the unknown and like unhooving or whatever, unroofing whatever it is that's in there.
• 15:33
  Keri Croft: Is the environment I I like imagery.
• 15:35
  Keri Croft: Like, are you in more of a medical type room where it feels like a hospital room, or do you make it more like spa-like for people so it's more cozy?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's very different than a hospital room, but it's actually in a hospital room.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a room at the Wexner Medical Center, which before we took it over looked like a standard hospital room, but we renovated it to look more like a living room environment.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there are comfy couch, comfy chairs, carpet, art on the walls.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have a we play music during the session, and so there's speakers in the room.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: We have blankets and pillows and cushions and all of the things that make it more of a cozy environment, but it's right in the middle of what otherwise is a medical setting.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we do that because the environment does play a critical role in people's feeling sense of safety in the session.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: We want them to be comfortable.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we spend the therapy time ahead of time with them in that same space.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they're getting used to it.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're getting used to being in a space with us and and sharing that time together so that by the time we get to the session, they're hopefully comfortable in the space.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And during the session, we have a lot of things that we can do to ensure their comfort.
• 16:36
  Keri Croft: And when you're in there, is it normally like minimal intervention from you?
• 16:40
  Keri Croft: Or are you guiding?
• 16:41
  Keri Croft: Are you openly talking?
• 16:43
  Keri Croft: Are you guys talking to each other?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: It really depends on the psychedelic.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So for psilocybin therapy, that experience, especially the large doses that we're providing people, that really does make it difficult for folks to engage in a dialogue.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so often for you know, four to five hours of that day, they're often internal.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons why we have the music playing.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: They also have headphones on and eye shades on, and we really encourage them to spend time going inward.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the psychedelics allow this potentiality of accessing parts of yourself that you might not have access to in a normal day-to-day.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Talking and even just looking outside of yourself can distract from that process.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: It can actually, in for some people, it can help them avoid doing that because it can feel uncomfortable at first.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if things are difficult that are coming up, it's a very easy way to get out of that, is to just open your eyes or take the music away.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: But we really encourage people to go inward because we think that's where the good stuff is.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: We think that's where the healing might take place is deeper connection with oneself, deeper connection with the systems that your body is already wired to engage in.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: We are wired to be emotional creatures, to engage with this emotional system, to engage with our thoughts and our bodies.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: But often through life, we have disconnected either from parts of our bodies.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some people have disconnected completely from their body or their emotional system.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to bring about this opportunity of that re-engagement.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want people to go inward.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: With other psychedelics like MDMA or ketamine, they can bring about different types of experiences, different doses, different settings.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them are also similarly where you're not talking.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes lower doses you want there to be more therapeutic interaction.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it really depends on the psychedelic, depends on the dose, depends on the purpose of the study or the purpose of the clinical engagement.
• 18:19
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• 18:27
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• 18:37
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• 18:43
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• 18:47
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• 19:11
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• 19:15
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• 19:49
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• 19:53
  Keri Croft: Where does ibogaine fit in?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Ibogaine is a is a substance that has, you know, gotten a lot of attention recently.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: We've been actually studying ibogaine for about 10 years in my lab.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of folks who have used ibogaine are people, um veterans, and others who have gone um outside of the US because it's it lives in a gray area of legality in places like Mexico.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a medical treatment there, but it's also not illegal there.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's these clinics that have come about that treat folks, a lot of them with substance use disorders, also trauma, TBI.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so folks have been going to these clinics to receive this treatment.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's also kind of similar to psilocybin in terms of there's not a lot of interaction during the experience.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's really meant to be an inward journey, an inward experience, but it lasts much longer.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: For some people, it can last 12 to 24 hours.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's also severe cardiac risks with ibogaine.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not a treatment that personally that I think will ever become a mainstay of treatment because of these risks.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for some people who have intractable conditions that have been struggling for a long time, it does seem to interrupt those things for them in a way that allows them to have some flexibility in pursuing a different path.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so for some folks, I think it could be really helpful.
• 21:03
  Keri Croft: So maybe it would be described as like a more aggressive or like something if you were really having a rough time like that.
• 21:08
  Keri Croft: Because that does sound like, first of all, 12 to 24 hours, but then the I didn't realize the cardiac, like I'm not trying to, you know.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like add more to you only get one of these.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:17
  Keri Croft: So have you done psilocybin?
• 21:19
  Keri Croft: Like, are you a regular psilocybin experience guy?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I have had psychedelic experiences.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not someone who has regular psychedelic experiences.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what I mean by that is I think most people who most people who engage with psychedelics in a therapeutic context often will describe, and we hear this from our participants as well.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually just did a study last year where we followed up with folks from a depression trial that we conducted um when I was at Johns Hopkins.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And in that trial, we wanted to see, you know, five years later, how are people doing?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we met up with all of the folks from the study five years later.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what we heard from them was almost resoundingly, there were a couple of exceptions, but almost resoundingly, everyone said, I never pursued it again.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't search it out because.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I got so much out of it.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And also it was difficult in some ways.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it just left me with like a lot of things to work on that I didn't feel like I needed to return to it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some people do feel a desire to return to it or feel like there's more work to do, but often those are spread out over months or years.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a different than like a recreational use of it, you know, where you might be searching for the fun or the excitement or the euphoria.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: With the therapeutic things, it's like, well, sometimes that access to the inner world, you know, you can't unknow and unlearn the things that you find there.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it takes months or years of integrating and making sense of what you found in there and bringing about the changes that occur kind of as a result of that before you're ready to do it again.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's not something that I do on a regular basis, but I have used it for my own healing.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also someone with PTSD and a childhood trauma separate from my family, just a separate trauma that I've had to deal with as an adult.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have used it to help me heal.
• 22:55
  Keri Croft: I was asking because, well, first I was just curious about you, but then when you say it helps you access parts of yourself that you didn't even know, I like examples of that.
• 23:04
  Keri Croft: Like, do you have a specific moment or something that you could share from your experience?
• 23:09
  Keri Croft: Because that to me, when you create that imagery, like I had a girl come in and um she wasn't even meaning to talk about this, but she ended up going to Costa Rica and having this incredible experience, and she was talking about this light, and it was like her as a child, and it was crazy, and I was like riveted.
• 23:24
  Keri Croft: Like the grown-up came and the child like, do you have something like that that you can share that like draws it the experience in for people?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, for me, um one of the biggest moments of my own personal healing came in a session where I discovered this inner child.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this term inner child is thrown around a lot, but I had never had like a lived experience of that.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it conceptually, intellectually, understood that there are these, you know, memories or things that we go through, but I never had like a lived experience of that.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in one of the more healing and transformational sessions that I've had with my therapist, I actually discovered that there was this like in that memory of this part of myself as a seven-year-old boy, there became this more not physical manifestation, like it wasn't happening like outside of my own mind.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I discovered there was this like person inside of me, is for lack of better words.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: This inner child was an actual child that I came into contact with in a psychedelic session.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I found this person still living in the house where that trauma occurred, still scared in that bedroom.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I found this child version of me scared and alone and isolated and in the dark and seemingly terrified of what was going on.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: They were, they were literally still living in the trauma of what occurred.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And in this psychedelic experience, I was able to go into the this this the room, my childhood room where he was.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to sit down with him on the bed and have a conversation with him about what he was experiencing, but more so about like what I could do as in that environment, a safe person for him to be comforted, to find release, to find safety.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that became this emotionally cathartic release that allowed me to feel the emotions of what that little boy was feeling, to feel the terror and the fear and the pain and the sadness and the anger in a way that as an adult I had never really accessed, you know, like I knew I was mad about what happened to me, but I had never really felt the anger of what that little boy felt.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: The session allowed me to feel those emotions, allowed me to connect with him in a way and to bring him with me into the future self, this future timeline, so that I don't have to leave him back there.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: He can be with me, he can be integrated with me as an adult, and we can work on this together.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I can provide that comfort myself in a way that he wasn't able to receive as a child.
• 25:46
  Keri Croft: That's that's like so profound to me.
• 25:48
  Keri Croft: So worth it.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was so worth it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it what it did for me was it allowed me to deepen not only my my relationship with myself and my understanding of who I am, but it allowed me to engage more deeply with other people.
• 26:00
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 26:01
  Keri Croft: Was it like watching a movie?
• 26:02
  Keri Croft: What did it feel like?
• 26:03
  Keri Croft: And were you talking out loud, or were you was this all internal?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was all internal.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It does kind of feel at least for me, it did feel somewhat like a movie and like it kind of felt like something that I'm I was watching unfold.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it can feel a little bit like you're the actor in it, like you are actually doing it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, in that experience, it was a little bit more kind of like I was observing this and kind of observing this part of my adult self, talking to this part of my childhood self in a way that was unfolding more kind of in front of me.
• 26:30
  Keri Croft: So in the months after that, and as you were processing that and healing from that experience, like it has been like a marked difference.
• 26:39
  Keri Croft: Is yeah, like with the anger, like you could feel the change.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you know, for me personally, what was going on around in my life at that time was, you know, I had recently gotten married.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Marriage for me was the catalyst to actually opening up my trauma.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize that I was struggling with trauma until I got married.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, looking back on it, I think why that catalyzed this opening for me was because it was the first time in my life that I had ever been in a safe situation fully with another human who really had my best interests at heart.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: In that safe setting, my nervous system was like, what the heck is this?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is not, this is weird, this isn't normal, this isn't what people did, this isn't what adult did when you were a child, this isn't what you've seen happening.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: I had never been in a relationship where that level of emotional intimacy was available to me.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, you know, these things started being like, oh, well, well, here we are.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: You now are in this safe situation.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Here are these things to work on.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, those mirrors were really destabilizing to the point where I actually kicked my partner out of the house.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I said I didn't want to be in this relationship.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I thought the problem was the relationship, not who I was in it.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so after about six months of like really trying to destroy this relationship, I had an experience actually with cannabis that was had taken probably too high of a dose of an edible.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I found that I went to the bath.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was just trying to relax.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this edible, which I think at higher doses, cannabis absolutely can have psychedelic properties.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: At this high dose, I actually had this contact with some kind of emotional thing inside of me.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really know fully what it was.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that there were these memories from my childhood that didn't really make sense.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that there were these pieces that I had never quite been able to put together.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it actually, I had this deep emotional and physical experience of connecting these pieces in a way that it just hit me, that it wasn't, it wasn't something outside of myself that was the problem.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was something internal.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what allowed me to then go into the psychedelic experience that I went into where I had this experience with this child part of myself.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: What that also did is it helped me reach back out to my partner and we got back together.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're still married.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, now it's something that I look at as critical to the development of that relationship and for us to be able to have continued.
• 28:51
  Keri Croft: Do you feel like the relationship is like so strong and sturdy?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, yes.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the challenge was I also realized I had PTSD and I had this trauma for my childhood.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, that has led to some ups and downs, you know, especially for my partner who is married to someone with trauma and PTSD and you know, who tends to want to flee from things when they're hard.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so in a relationship, that's been challenging for us, but it's also led to so much growth and so much more connection.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'd say we're still on a process.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I more days than not, I feel that safety and connection, but it's a it's a definitely an ongoing process.
• 29:27
  Keri Croft: I mean, the marriage could be a whole nother marriage can be a whole nother episode of the fun house of mirrors.
• 29:32
  Keri Croft: Oh, it's it's marriage is I mean, without any trauma, right?
• 29:36
  Keri Croft: I mean, just with the most stable of two people with great childhoods.
• 29:40
  Keri Croft: I mean, marriages, it's a lot.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's totally an experiment.
• 29:43
  Keri Croft: The universe is like, hey.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And people I don't think have a voice to really talk about that a lot.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I feel like society doesn't really allow that voice very often.
• 29:52
  Keri Croft: We talk about it in here.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we do.
• 29:54
  Keri Croft: Because I I just I can't.
• 29:56
  Keri Croft: I can't, I I I know too much, I know too many people.
• 29:58
  Keri Croft: It's like you do your own little exper.
• 30:00
  Keri Croft: You know, I'm not a scientist, but I'm like a social scientist.
• 30:03
  Keri Croft: You know, you can do your own little experiments.
• 30:05
  Keri Croft: Like if I know 25 couples, and out of those 25 couples, 25 of them are having you know, it's it's an interesting situation.
• 30:13
  Keri Croft: Do you know got have you heard of John Gottman?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I have, yes.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank God.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Very familiar.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Keri Croft: So the four horsemen, which is like defensiveness, stonewalling, contempt, and criticism, which are like the four killers of a marriage.
• 30:24
  Keri Croft: You know about his love lab?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know a little bit about it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, actually, when we were going through some of our initial challenges, that was one of the things we were trying to find some help and we're kind of looking at that initially.
• 30:33
  Keri Croft: If you ever hit a patch, I have someone who uh is great, his he's so great.
• 30:37
  Keri Croft: He is in Columbus and he he's like the Gottman method.
• 30:39
  Keri Croft: It's very frustrating therapy.
• 30:41
  Keri Croft: Very frustrating, but it's like, I think it's really good.
• 30:43
  Keri Croft: I've had him on the show, he's incredible.
• 30:45
  Keri Croft: Um, but anyway, I bring that up because I'm so fascinated with what John what he did with this love lab in Seattle, which is basically he created a room that has the one-sided glass, and couples would agree to live there and stay there, and then people would they would watch them and he would be able to predict divorce by watching the couple.
• 31:05
  Keri Croft: He predicted it within it was like a 98% accuracy.
• 31:09
  Keri Croft: It's crazy.
• 31:10
  Keri Croft: And he actually just showed up on my Instagram feed or my TikTok feed the other day.
• 31:14
  Keri Croft: I'm like, big brother is listening.
• 31:17
  Keri Croft: I'm like, I hadn't seen him.
• 31:19
  Keri Croft: I was like, wait, that's what he looks like.
• 31:20
  Keri Croft: So now I'm getting all this got and you know stuff on my phone.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think couples work with psychedelics has been integral to my marriage recovery.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think in part because of my own trauma, but also what we discovered was like all of us, we all have our own things, right?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: We all have the things, the the masks, the armor, the areas that we're growing.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And fortunately, um, my husband and I have been able to find a couple therapists.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: We actually work with a husband and wife team.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I work with the husband individually for therapy.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: He works with the wife, but we come together for psychedelic therapy sessions as a foursome.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been absolutely integral to our healing as a couple and also for our individual work that we're doing.
• 31:57
  Keri Croft: I love that.
• 31:58
  Keri Croft: Where do you what area do you live in?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: I live in German Village.
• 32:00
  Keri Croft: Oh, nice.
• 32:00
  Keri Croft: God, I love it.
• 32:01
  Keri Croft: I used to live there too.
• 32:02
  Keri Croft: I lived on Beach Street.
• 32:04
  Keri Croft: Which was real close to Parsons.
• 32:05
  Keri Croft: Oh yeah.
• 32:06
  Keri Croft: Oh, you're in the you're in like the thick.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:08
  Keri Croft: That's amazing.
• 32:09
  Keri Croft: That's a nice thing.
• 32:10
  Keri Croft: Good for you.
• 32:10
  Keri Croft: So before we turn the page on psychedelic therapy and all of the advances and everything, what do you want to put out there that if you left here and got in your car, you're like, damn it, I really wanted to say this about what we're doing and the progress we're making.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would like to share two things.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: One is that I think it's really easy to hear in the media about psychedelics and think, oh, this sounds too good to be true.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like some snake oil or a magic bullet.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how could this be real?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not snake oil, it's not a magic bullet, but it also is not gonna be a panacea of healing for everyone.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the right choice for every person.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the studies that we do now and that have been going on for the past few decades are highly selected studies with people who have been screened out for almost every possible like comorbidity or additional challenge.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: They don't look like normal everyday human beings who are struggling with things.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's important because we don't know how this is gonna look when more people have access to it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know for who it's best for or for whom it might be a risk for.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: What we do know is that quite a few people in these studies are reporting that it's beneficial and helpful.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: What that's leading to is a lot of folks are turning to psychedelics in non-clinical environments now because they don't want to wait for FDA approval.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: They want this opportunity now, but they're turning to places where they might not have the right kind of support or they might not have a therapist who can work with them.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And what that's leading to are more emergency room visits, more interactions of people needing help and more of these bad trips or difficulties that are leading to, for some folks, even like interaction with law enforcement.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we want people to know is that, you know, ideally people would be able to wait until they have access.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be a long time.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: If they don't want to wait, please try to find resources, find information.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our education programming at the CPDRE at Ohio State provides some of this education for folks.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: We want people to be empowered with the knowledge of how to make sure that they're safe.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we're also working to empower professionals.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: We want emergency room providers and nurses and therapists and law enforcement professionals across the country to understand what happens when someone comes to you and they're either in the midst of a psychedelic experience and they're in crisis or after the fact and they've had difficulties.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: How can you help?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are the proper approaches to help them navigate that?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've actually been funded by the state of Ohio to do that training for the professionals here in the state.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we're working towards getting some federal funding now to expand that nationally because we want people that just have the information they need to make sure that they're not gonna put themselves in harm's way.
• 34:28
  Keri Croft: I love that.
• 34:28
  Keri Croft: Now for the good stuff.
• 34:29
  Keri Croft: Where do you get your massage?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I work with someone in a medical massage.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's someone who I first found at Woodhouse, but since then have moved into this kind of mixture of massage and and this thing called active release therapy.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which for me has been kind of transformational in my physical health.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so he actually just comes to our house periodically to do that now.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 34:49
  Keri Croft: I was gonna give you a couple of suggestions, but it sounds like you're I mean, I'm always down for some suggestions.
• 34:53
  Keri Croft: Well, have you have you been to speaking of panacea?
• 34:55
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 34:55
  Keri Croft: Have you been to Panacea?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have not.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know of it, but I haven't been there.
• 34:58
  Keri Croft: So Krista is the founder and visionary of Panacea.
• 35:02
  Keri Croft: She's a good friend of mine, she's fantastic, and it is next level.
• 35:05
  Keri Croft: There's nothing like it in Columbus.
• 35:07
  Keri Croft: I would highly recommend if you're gonna treat yourself.
• 35:09
  Keri Croft: Yeah.
• 35:09
  Keri Croft: Maybe you and your man would like to go do the amenities.
• 35:12
  Keri Croft: Yes.
• 35:12
  Keri Croft: I mean, literally, they do like a day.
• 35:15
  Keri Croft: Well, you don't have to, but like she has a great thing where you can go do the amenities for like X amount of dollars, but you can like spend a ton of time in there.
• 35:21
  Keri Croft: Great sauna, Hemily and Salt stuff, the cold plunge.
• 35:25
  Keri Croft: It's like the perfect temperature.
• 35:26
  Keri Croft: They she has these like crazy hanging chairs.
• 35:28
  Keri Croft: It's a beautiful space.
• 35:29
  Keri Croft: I would highly recommend putting that on your list.
• 35:32
  Keri Croft: And then my girl Kate at the Bexley Massage Garage, she's fantastic.
• 35:36
  Keri Croft: So she has it's at her house.
• 35:37
  Keri Croft: She has this huge lawn and she's got it decorated.
• 35:40
  Keri Croft: I mean, it's so eclectic.
• 35:42
  Keri Croft: There's mirrors, there's all kinds of shit.
• 35:43
  Keri Croft: But she does a massage in her garage and she opens up the back so you can hear like the birds and the and she has the sauna and the cold plunge, and it's like she just has a and she does like she'll read your energy.
• 35:54
  Keri Croft: She has people come to her sometimes.
• 35:56
  Keri Croft: Like she's she was telling me when she first started, she would like want to tell everybody, and they're like, I just I'm here for the massage.
• 36:01
  Keri Croft: So she tries to like read what you want and what you don't, but she'll be like, Do you want me to read your chakra, you know, do your chakra reading or whatever?
• 36:07
  Keri Croft: She's fantastic too.
• 36:08
  Keri Croft: If you want like a really off-beat, like cool, she's like a gem, like you're not gonna find anything like that, you know?
• 36:15
  Keri Croft: Very unique.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely.
• 36:16
  Keri Croft: But I like the active release thing.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really good.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: But but it what it does often is it does kind of make it more of like a physical appointment and not necessarily a relaxing appointment.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I love this idea of finding someplace that has more of these different amenities.
• 36:30
  Keri Croft: Those are my my two.
• 36:32
  Keri Croft: And then um, what are your go-tos in in the ville?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, we love Emmett's.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Emmett's is so I know they have another location, but the Emmett's in German Village is always delightful and fantastic.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, Fox in the Snow is always delightful and enjoyable.
• 36:44
  Keri Croft: They just moved over to UA.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, did they?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're great.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Their breakfast sandwich is probably our favorite.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And brown bag deli.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean is hello.
• 36:53
  Keri Croft: Yeah, it's such a quaint.
• 36:54
  Keri Croft: I love German Village.
• 36:56
  Keri Croft: Well, Alan, this has been lovely.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was so great to connect with you.
• 37:00
  Keri Croft: And I love that you're a Swifty.
• 37:01
  Keri Croft: Like when I read that, and you said, is it Bon Ivor?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Bonavir, yeah.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Bonavir.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna screw it up.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Bonavir.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when they actually did their collab during the pandemic, I was like my perfect.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: You were through the roof.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't know what to do with yourself.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 37:14
  Keri Croft: Good.
• 37:15
  Keri Croft: Well, thank you for taking the time.
• 37:17
  Keri Croft: Angela Douglas, you angel flying too close to the ground out there.
• 37:20
  Keri Croft: And I know you're so humble.
• 37:21
  Keri Croft: You're gonna get, you're gonna make her blush with compliments.
• 37:24
  Keri Croft: Thank you for hooking me up with this incredible human being.
• 37:26
  Keri Croft: And if you're still out there following your girl, follow me on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 37:31
  Keri Croft: And until next time, take care of yourselves out there and keep moving, baby.