Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / Eliminating the Alcohol Brain Hijack with Katie Lain

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Eliminating the Alcohol Brain Hijack with Katie Lain · Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano

• Lyndsay Soprano (00:01.614) So the first drink that I ever had, alcoholic drink that is, was at the age of nine years old. It was a hotty totty. My grandfather had told my parents, because I wasn't sleeping, I've been an insomniac since I was nine years old, that because I wasn't sleeping, just give her a little whiskey, warmed up with some honey, and that'll do the trick. Well, indeed it did. And I remember it like it was yesterday that. the warmth, the sensation of it like going into your belly. It was sweet, but it wasn't too sweet. It was spicy, but it wasn't too spicy. It was just right. And so it kind of began. My little brain fired off immediately at such a young age and that immediate desire to drink at such a young age began. And it's not like I set out from then on that I was a drinker after that. It just planted a little bit of a seed inside of me. like a little message in my brain that said, if I felt bad or I couldn't sleep, it was okay to drink because my parents always do it. My grandparents said it was fine, then we're okay, right? But then there was always that shame that kind of came in the background as I started getting older where I was starting to sneak around. By the time I was a freshman in high school, I was drinking almost every day with my girlfriends and we would steal alcohol from the local, at the time it was called Long's Drugstore, they're now all CVSs and Walgreens or whatever. and also steal as many wet and wild lip glosses as we could possibly shove in our bras. That is what we did when we were in the early 90s. So, my birth father and my stepmother, raging alcoholics, they used to keep cups in a cooler in the back seat of the car and have cups in there where they would have me pour their chardonnay from the back seat. My mom, heavy drinker. Everyone that I have ever known for as long as I've lived is a heavy drinker outside of my husband who my sweetie who does not drink at all, which I love. And then my last husband was a raging alcoholic and my sister died in August of addiction. And why do we still go and reach for it? Why? It's driving me insane. So let's talk about it. Today we are going to chat about why alcohol habits get hardwired in our little brains, right? Lyndsay Soprano (02:14.51) What happened to us when we were intoxicated at young ages, and then of course, my God, that just carries on into getting older, how a 30 plus year old treatment that is available and little known is changing the lives of one of three Americans that have these kinds of addictions. We're gonna talk about cutting back versus quitting, because I know that we're quitting alcohol is very scary for people like myself, and it can be, because they're like, what do you mean? I can't ever have a drink again. That's crazy, that's nuts. What are you thinking about? and then turning recovery into a mission driven business and getting into the world of advocacy for this. And this is why we're having my guests on today, but a multitude of others. So without further ado, I would like to introduce you to my guest today, Miss Beautiful Katie Lane. Hello, darling. Katie Lain (02:59.813) Hey, Lindsay, that was an amazing introduction. Thank you for that. That was great. It's so good to be here. Lyndsay Soprano (03:05.73) Thank you. Well, it's good while you get raw and real here on this show, so I'm not holding back. So Katie is the founder of Thrive Alcohol Recovery and a passionate advocate for the Sinclair method, which I just briefly touched on, a neuroscience backed approach that uses naltrexone to reduce alcohol cravings over time. And it also helps with pain. And that is something that I've learned about naltrexone. So I'm going to talk a little bit about that too. After nearly a decade of daily drinking and countless fails attempts to quit. Katie found lasting freedom without going cold turkey today She's alcohol free by accident as she says and helps others rewrite their stories through this shame free Science-driven paths to recovery permission is to bring hope healing and real solutions to those who feel stuck in the cycle And that's one of the things we do here on the show Every day is to bring hope and to bring healing to each and every one of you that are listening and thank you for doing so So I'm rolling out the red carpet for you, babe Katie Lain (04:02.266) I know. Lyndsay Soprano (04:02.622) I would like to start with what led you kind of to pick up your first drink when you were around 15 years old and let's kind of take it from there. Katie Lain (04:09.979) Yeah, and just thank you for sharing about your family history. I know you touched on it a bit when we talked before, but like, man, you really have been touched by alcohol. And I just find that to be so true for people. I mean, I work with a lot of Americans and looking at people 99.9 % of people I work with, you would never know they're struggling with alcohol. It's just a silent issue. But yeah, back to my early days. So Lyndsay Soprano (04:27.384) Yeah. Katie Lain (04:33.327) My early drinking days was a bit different than what you described for your own because when I first started drinking, I did it more so out of peer pressure starting around 15. I would get drunk and have fun, but I didn't love it, to be honest. I was like, yeah, I just do it with my friends, but it wasn't something that was like, you know, super appealing to me that I sought it out for myself necessarily. So I experimented with alcohol lot in my like teenage years, had a fake ID even and would go to bars and like, yeah, yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (04:58.582) Of course, we're not monsters. Katie Lain (05:02.387) So did that for a while, got it taken away eventually. But when I did turn 21, that was just funny enough. I'd been drinking for five years or so before that, but that was when I developed my alcohol addiction. And it really was because I was hanging around people. who were very heavy drinkers and I don't put the blame on them at all because I had free will in that situation, but it kind of showed me that like, hey, this is actually really fun and something that can become a part of daily life. And hey, I'm 21, I can go to bars now, like let's do it, you know? And I just remember viewing it as like in my early 20s, it's something I'm supposed to do, you know? It's a rite of passage. But after a couple of years of that, that's when I was like, okay, this isn't just something I'm doing that's for fun anymore and actually become a... Lyndsay Soprano (05:35.928) Sure, of course. Yeah. Katie Lain (05:45.947) a problem and a daily thing that I couldn't quit. even I tried my first break from alcohol was a week long break thinking, I've been drinking every day for a long time. Let's try this seven day detox break kind of thing. And I made it, but it was so hard. I wanted to drink every day. I was taking Nyquil just to go to bed at seven and not have to fight the craving. And then by day eight, I was like back at it again. And that was like my first attempt to rein in the issue of alcohol, which continued on for years after that until I Lyndsay Soprano (05:58.776) Yeah. Katie Lain (06:15.719) found in the Sinclair Method in 2017. Lyndsay Soprano (06:18.446) That's nuts. So can we talk about, mean, let's talk a little bit about what happens with our brain when it comes to alcohol. Because when I'm, like what I was talking about in the beginning about how my little brain just instantaneously was fired off because of it. And it, I mean, it just has followed me through my entire life and every relationship. And I mean, I still struggle with it, not like I used to, but I mean, I can do like 30 days or whatever. And that is like the biggest challenge on the planet. And I don't know why. So what happens with our brain when it comes to this and how can we rewire it? Katie Lain (06:52.219) Yeah, and this is something I wish I would have known. And I think honestly, most people don't consider that alcohol use disorder or alcohol addiction is an issue in the brain. I think as a society, we kind of view it as a character defect or you just don't have discipline or you don't really care about me or yourself. It does become a very self-destructive cycle. But the root of it is what's going on in the brain. And those of us with, you know, family histories of alcohol addiction we are more genetically predisposed to develop an addiction. So what that means in practical terms is that when we drink, our brain almost gets more pleasure than the average person. So we're more prone to like it, we're more prone to get addicted to it faster. But the truth is almost anyone can develop an addiction to alcohol simply by repeatedly drinking. And especially if we drink to excess, like if we're binge drinking or, you know, drinking more than what our body can... which is about a drink an hour. So the reason that the brain... Lyndsay Soprano (07:53.198) Bodies can drink, can process a drink an hour. Oh my God. Katie Lain (07:56.217) Approximately, yeah, your body. So if people like me, my first glass would last me 10 or 15 minutes and then I'd be pouring the second. So I was drinking way more than, yeah, my body could keep up with. But the reason, you know, that the brain changes when we have an alcohol addiction is really, it's simply that alcohol is really pleasurable for the brain and our brain remembers things that give it pleasure. It's how we survive, know, sex is pleasurable, food is pleasurable. We look to things that give us pleasure. And so Lyndsay Soprano (08:03.468) Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Katie Lain (08:25.895) we drink, it just floods our brain with all this artificial pleasure from the alcohol. And if we do it once in a while and intermittently, it's not a big deal. But when we do it regularly and our brain is regularly getting that superficial reward, your brain changes and it starts to think, hey, that's a really rewarding thing. Maybe it's good for my survival. So I'm going to start seeking it out. And that's where people talk about cravings or just thinking about alcohol. Like you mentioned the 30 days, I mean, if you didn't desire alcohol at all, if there was no craving, those 30 days would be a breeze. For a lot of people, the reason they return to drinking, again, is because the desire is there. I want to drink, I want a glass of wine, I'm thinking about it, or that beer sounds good. And so it's that craving that drives people to keep drinking, even if they sincerely want to quit or cut back. And again, it's just the brain changes. And like a simple way I like to put it is that It's almost like your brain gets hijacked by the addiction and we start to live for that one and only pleasure. And the pleasure we get from alcohol is far above any other pleasure, even from sex. It's like double the amount of pleasure that we get from from sex or our best day ever. So it changes kind of our hierarchy of perceived pleasure in the brain. And that's when it starts to take over our lives and we will do crazy things like sacrifice our health or our relationships or our safety. just to keep drinking because the urge is so strong. And just by quitting drinking, you're not getting rid of that urge. And I think that's why so many people relapse. It's estimated that 80 % of people who go to a traditional treatment quit drinking within six months, 80 % or more are going to be back to drinking again. Lyndsay Soprano (10:06.776) Wow, that is a staggering statistic. It gives us a lot of hope over here. Yeah, so with that being said, yeah, because for me, I tried AA programs, I did LA, not NA, I did Alanon because my ex-husband was just an incredible heavy drinker and at one point I ended up like, if I can't beat him, join him and I joined him. And then I had to pull myself out of that and get myself divorced from that man. It was just something. Katie Lain (10:09.498) Yeah. Right. Katie Lain (10:23.557) yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (10:36.27) He's now sober. Katie Lain (10:38.067) Joke's on me. Lyndsay Soprano (10:42.52) bit me, but it's okay. I'm happy that I'm not married to him because I found a winner on this side anyways. one of the things about like how to quit and how to stop these cold turkey things where everyone's like, if you drink that crazy and that heavy and you just ultimately like stop, it's really dangerous. And that's part of what actually started to happen with my sister. She decided that she was going to stop. She wanted to stop drinking. She was also taking all kinds of other pain medications and pills and a ton of THC. Katie Lain (10:59.325) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (11:10.894) And on top of that, I was taking anti-seizure medication, which she was not supposed to be doing any of that together. And that's what ended up happening. And so at the end of the day, that addiction ended up getting her. And so that scares me. But every time I go and pour like a glass of Prosecco, I'm like, why am I not thinking about Carrie? Why am I not thinking about my birth father? Why am I not thinking about all these other people? Because my brain is completely trained that it will make me feel a little bit better for a hot minute until it doesn't anymore. Katie Lain (11:11.345) Yeah. Wow. Katie Lain (11:33.213) Mm-hmm. Katie Lain (11:39.987) It overrides our logic and reason, truly. Like, the part of the brain that is impacted by the alcohol use disorder is a primitive, powerful part of the reward center in the brain. So logically, people that struggle, like I'm sure you've done, you wake up with a hangover, you're like, why do I do that? Okay, I'm not going to drink this week. Or you say you're going to have two drinks and then you have 12 and you're like, why do I keep doing that? That's the logical part of you. Lyndsay Soprano (11:42.456) Hmm, yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (11:58.029) Mm-hmm. Katie Lain (12:03.591) that knows that you, you know, don't want this for yourself, but the urge, it's almost like a survival primitive urge. Like we haven't urged to drink water or eat food. If we haven't had water in a couple of days, we're going to like be thinking about it and looking for it and do a lot of things just to get our hands on it because we need it for survival. And that's kind of what happens to the brain when it gets addicted. It's like overrides our logic and reason. Lyndsay Soprano (12:26.616) That's nuts. let's talk about the Sinclair method and how you found it for starters and got involved in it because super fascinating. Katie Lain (12:35.173) Yeah, it seemed too good to be true when I first learned about it. I've been... so I've been struggling. Yeah. But like when I found it, for so long I had this like instinct that there's got to be something out there because I went to like two AA meetings. It just wasn't for me, but I would go to a lot of spiritual stuff, personal development classes, try different diets, thinking that if I could improve myself enough that maybe I would lose my desire to drink. Lyndsay Soprano (12:37.866) Right. Yeah. It's like, come on. Lyndsay Soprano (13:01.678) You Katie Lain (13:01.721) On the other hand, I thought, okay, well, maybe if I get a DUI or I have a health scare, then it'll motivate me enough to drink. And I got pulled over, I didn't get a DUI by the grace of God. I don't know how that, should have, I was due one for sure. Lyndsay Soprano (13:13.78) I was too and I put a penny under my tongue thinking that that was, did not, it did not, but the cop that pulled me over, I actually got T-boned in the middle of the night. It was like two o'clock in the morning and I had just left a bar. I remember it like it was yesterday. was up in Seal Beach, California and I was leaving the bar and I should not have been driving and it was super foggy and there's this place in Seal Beach that's like people can jet out and I got T-boned and I got breath of light. I was like, fuck. Katie Lain (13:17.213) Does that work? I've done that before too. Okay. Katie Lain (13:27.793) Okay. Lyndsay Soprano (13:43.084) And I like grabbed the penny I put under my tongue. I'm thinking, I don't know, this is all I've got for myself right now. I'm like, we're gonna try it. And I blew, just, I don't even remember what the number was. And he goes, I am going to let you go. But I shouldn't, but you were not driving. couldn't drive. Fortunately, I was unable to drive, so he took me home. I know. I know. So those little moments, shouldn't that scare you straight? No, it didn't. I mean, this is actually the first time I've thought about it, and I don't even know how long ago that was, 20 years ago, something like that, you know? Crazy. Katie Lain (14:05.311) my gosh, that is, wow. Katie Lain (14:12.775) Yeah. Katie Lain (14:17.861) Yeah. Again, because our brain is hijacked by the addiction, we would think that these rock bottoms would wake us up. I had a really serious health scare where I literally almost died. had blood clots in both my lungs because of my drinking and probably a birth control I was on. And they were like, you can't drink anymore. And four days after I got out of the hospital, I was drinking again. So, yeah. Right. And again, this is like Lyndsay Soprano (14:35.63) You're like glug, glug, glug, glug. What does he know? I know he doesn't know anything Katie Lain (14:41.299) We beat ourselves up thinking what's wrong with me, but it's not really you because the real you is the one I'm like, why do I keep doing this? That's the real you but the brain again, it's hijacked by the alcohol and this hijack can be reversed, which is the Sinclair method. And I learned about it. I was always looking for alternative treatments. I was always listening to success stories of people who quit drinking. And my question when I would listen to those is like, how did you quit drinking? Because I've tried and I can't stay sober. Now looking back, I know it's because I was just like, Lyndsay Soprano (14:44.344) Yeah. Katie Lain (15:09.171) craving alcohol like crazy and just wanting to drink and the thought of never drinking again just seemed like a terrible way to finish out my life. Like I'd rather, I remember thinking I'd rather live a shorter life and be able to drink than go the rest of my life sober. Like that's the state of mind I was in. Lyndsay Soprano (15:24.046) Literally, I've had the conversation with my ex-wife, said, well, I'm going to die of something. If it's cirrhosis, it's cirrhosis. Katie Lain (15:28.243) my gosh. And may it not be that because there are treatments that can help you drink less. You don't have to quit. You don't have to call yourself an alcoholic. You don't have to go to meetings. It's... and that's the Sinclair method. Lyndsay Soprano (15:31.585) It's terrible! Lyndsay Soprano (15:37.196) Yeah. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (15:41.678) That's crazy. okay, so talk a little bit more about how it works. talk about your business, you start, obviously, you started on the Sinclair method. you kind of give a little bit deeper dive into what it actually is, like what the program's like, how does it actually work, and I know that there's naltrexone, that's part of it. Is it small dose naltrexone by chance, or is it just, it's a higher dose than the low? Okay, yeah. Katie Lain (15:58.632) Mm-hmm. Katie Lain (16:03.291) It's a higher dose. So low dose is like a few milligrams and the Sinclair method uses 50 milligrams. So it's like a tablet, bigger tablet. So yeah, I learned about it scouring the internet. There was a random YouTube video. It's actually Tedx Talk, someone telling their story. I think it's got over 5 million views now. But when I saw it back in 2017, it wasn't that far, you know, known. And so that's this celebrity, this like Lyndsay Soprano (16:08.96) Okay, yeah, okay. Okay, cool. Katie Lain (16:29.907) 80s 90s sci fi star named Claudia Christian. Maybe people know her who are listening, but she talks about her struggles with alcohol and how she used naltrexone in the Sinclair method to get better. And I just remember thinking, this sounds way too good to be true. Maybe it's just a celebrity pushing something because at the time I was like, looking for success stories or other people talking about it and there weren't any. And so it was just like crazy to me that there was this woman talking on this TEDx talk, but I couldn't find much else about it. But then, you know, once I learned about it and did my research, I started looking for the medication, which was really difficult to get. It's gotten a little bit easier now in the US. But I went to a bunch of doctors, they refused to prescribe it, which is like a whole other story we could talk about. It's been a proof for alcohol since 1994. There's like so much research people can go on Google Scholar PubMed and just see there's thousands of research papers into naltrexone for alcohol. Lyndsay Soprano (17:11.852) Yeah, I wanna know. What? Katie Lain (17:27.507) But a lot of doctors just don't know about it. I saw a recent article that said 13 % of doctors are even aware or using medication for alcohol. So it's very underutilized, even though it's been around. And the Sinclair Method's been around. It was researched in the 90s as well. Lyndsay Soprano (17:43.384) And so what exactly is, what is this method? Can you describe what that actually is? Katie Lain (17:46.694) Yeah. Yes. So it's named after the doctor who discovered it, Dr. David Sinclair. And this method is pretty simple. It involves taking the medication Naltrexone one hour before drinking. And that's the basic protocol. You take the medicine, you wait an hour and you drink on it. And what's happening when you drink on this medication is that we talked about how alcohol floods the brain with a bunch of reward. What Naltrexone does is it sits on opioid receptors in your brain that would otherwise be getting this flood of endorphin reward from the alcohol. So it's an opiate blocker medication, not to be confused with opiates. It's not addictive. It's a safe medication. Naltrexone is not habit forming or it doesn't make you high or anything. Sometimes people say, you're replacing one drug for another, but that's not it at all. It's a tool. Lyndsay Soprano (18:30.274) Right, right, right. Katie Lain (18:36.403) that helps your brain unlearn the addiction and it helps the brain unlearn it because it sits on this receptor. You do the behavior, you drink, but you don't get the same level of reward anymore. And it's not that it makes it unpleasurable because some people will be like, well, you don't get the reward. What's the point? You still get some level of reward. It's just not that euphoric like buzz chasing. I'm going to have another drink and another drink. It slows you down a bit. And over time, it's not like a one and done process. I tell people to give this treatment a year for full results. I've seen people get there in three months. I've seen it take people three years. So everyone's different. Definitely our motivation for change has something to do with it. You know how ingrained drinking is into our life, how habituated we are to it and things like that. But when you drink on the medicine and your brain doesn't get the same reward, your brain gradually stops seeing alcohol as this peak reward. Lyndsay Soprano (19:16.536) Yeah. Katie Lain (19:29.083) And so when that happens, you do the behavior and you don't get the reward and you do that over and over and over again. Most people, what happens is they find that they're not thinking about alcohol as much because it's not producing a bunch of reward. They don't think about it as much. It's like, how much do you think about, you know, an iced tea? It's like, sure, an iced tea sounds good, but I'm not like fantasizing about it looking forward to it. It's like, it's an iced tea. I'll have one, maybe two, and then I'm done. Kind of what happens with alcohol because it's not as pleasurable. Yeah. And so Lyndsay Soprano (19:45.186) Never. Ew. Lyndsay Soprano (19:52.022) Yeah. Interesting. That's cool. Katie Lain (19:57.755) That happens over time and then on alcohol-free days on this method, you're not taking naltrexone. And on those days, the idea is to go out and do things that give you pleasure apart from alcohol, to essentially teach your brain other ways to feel reward and pleasure and cope and cultivate different hobbies and habits so that you're gradually unlearning alcohol as a pleasure, but then you're teaching yourself other pleasures and activities in life. And within about a year, for most people on this treatment, it has a clinically proven 78 % success rate. For most people, they get to a place where this is like they're hardly drinking, maybe they drink once or twice a week. If and when they drink, they have a drink or two or three and they're done. They're not thinking about it the rest of the time. And they just feel like they have this control again over alcohol. It's the word I hear all the time is freedom. Lyndsay Soprano (20:30.978) Wow. Katie Lain (20:50.629) It's not white knuckling. It's not like, I can't drink Monday through Friday. I'm only drinking Saturday. It's not that. It's like, you you might go out to dinner with your husband and have a dessert and you're like, yeah, I'll have a glass of wine too. But it's not like, I need that wine because the brain isn't like the brain is truly restored back to the place it was in before the alcohol addiction through this treatment over time. It's called pharmacological extinction of the addiction. Lyndsay Soprano (20:50.766) Mm. Lyndsay Soprano (20:56.728) Right. Lyndsay Soprano (21:03.992) Right. Lyndsay Soprano (21:17.166) That's cool. Sounds kind of space age, new agey. love it. Shoot, I didn't want to interrupt you when you were saying something and I was thinking something and now I forgot about it. One of the things that I think that is the scariest about saying you're never gonna do it ever again is like, I'm never gonna ever do anything ever again. Like, what do you mean? Like, am I gonna lose my personality? Am I not gonna be as fun? What am I gonna do when other people are drinking around me? All the standard issue questions. Katie Lain (21:19.155) You Lyndsay Soprano (21:44.546) But I'm with you like with AA for me, I don't like going in and saying, I am an alcoholic. What? don't want to do that. That's like reinforcing the behavior. And I found in doing any of those meetings that a lot of the people that were in the meetings and hey, if it works for you, I am not poo pooing it. For me, it wasn't my jam. It wasn't my ex-husbands either. It was just like, I kind of don't even want to be in the room with all of these people. Katie Lain (21:50.823) All right. Yep. Katie Lain (22:01.885) Right. Katie Lain (22:09.499) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (22:10.188) And a lot of it was because, you know, so much smoking and everybody's drinking coffee. And so this is like one of, I just like, my God. And then the sex addicts are in there then you got the NA people. like, I don't want to be thrown into more problem people in my life right now because to your point earlier about how people, when you hop back into drinking and your relapse, you know, somebody could be 21 years sober and then the next day they go and then they beat themselves up over it for the rest of their lives. And like, that is not recovery to me. And I don't even necessarily even like the word recovery anymore because it kind of, it falls into this bucket of you're bad and you need to recover from something. Like we've gotten in an accident or we've got, you know, something like that that we're recovering from and oh, poor me. I don't want that. It's just all I have been modeled in my entire life now. I remember I was gonna say, Katie Lain (22:40.647) No. Katie Lain (22:44.124) I don't either. Katie Lain (22:49.882) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (23:01.504) All I have been modeled in my life has been it's okay to drink. That's it. Like the second, you my mom will take a picture at the clock with her glass of her margarita in her hand at 4.59 and she'll snap a picture and send it to me, right? Like it's almost five, you know? And then we're like, I always do like, what time is it in Italy, honey? You know, so I mean, the things, the excuses that we make, but when you're seeing it, not just in the way that you're raised and in your family, you know, and all of that and people that you spouses and your friends and so on. Katie Lain (23:14.28) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (23:29.792) Our culture is completely wrapped around making drinking alcohol sexy and making it be fantastic and everybody's beautiful and everybody's sparkling with glitter all over their bodies. You know, they're like, that is not how I feel when I drink alcohol. do not have, well, I do actually have glitter on me because I wear glitter every day. So that I'm, it's true. Everybody that knows me knows I do. have it on my arms, my chest and in my hair every day. It is my thing. I don't care if I'm not even going anywhere or seeing anybody there's glitter in my life. Katie Lain (23:43.783) No. Katie Lain (23:53.171) sparkles. I love it. Lyndsay Soprano (23:57.602) But you know, that's what advertising has done and marketing has done and all of it. has said it is OK to do all of these things, in moderation, right? Always the button moderation part. Well, that's the problem. Yeah, drink responsibly. Give me a break. Nobody's going out and drinking responsibly. Nobody's doing this. Katie Lain (24:05.265) Right. Drink responsibly. I I know. I know. I know. It was such an internal conflict for me too because just like you're talking about, it's glamorized, it's celebrated, it's everywhere. I would do 5k runs that serve like unlimited beer at the end and I would just do a run. I would be hungover, do the run, and then get trashed at the end. And I'm like, what is this? Yeah. But it was so confusing. Lyndsay Soprano (24:20.321) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (24:28.638) my God, that sounds like something I would totally do. But I have really good, it is confusing, I do have really good memories of some great times that I've been boozed out of my brains and I have a lot of really bad memories too. And as you've gotten older and you've experienced more life and you've gotten yourself into shady situations, those compound, they don't go away. It's like when you think about... Katie Lain (24:40.775) Right. Lyndsay Soprano (24:53.568) Ever as soon as the first couple drinks you start getting flirty. You start feeling more beautiful than you were when you walked in. Next thing you know, you're getting banged in the bathroom like this is not something that we would do logically if it wasn't after 10 vodka sodas. You know, I'm just saying. Katie Lain (25:10.159) Yep. And the shame that comes with it because like you're saying, it's not what you would really do when you're in your right mind. And so you're just trying to piece together the night before. so there's the dark side of it for sure. And we're like, I don't like this. But then there's the celebratory side of it and the fun side of it. And it's both and. And I just remember feeling so conflicted. Like, do I have a drinking problem? Everyone around me drinks a lot and it's normalized. But I have all these dark Lyndsay Soprano (25:14.35) Of course! No. Lyndsay Soprano (25:22.615) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (25:34.786) Yeah. Katie Lain (25:37.277) consequences related to it. I almost got a DUI last night. Like this internal conflict and also just being real, not wanting to quit forever because I'm like, that seems like a terrible way to live, like never drinking again. And of course my mindset has changed on that because my brain was fixed and I don't drink anymore, but I can drink anytime I want to. I would just take naltrexone beforehand and it honestly like, I just don't feel like it. Like it's become almost like my least. Yeah, it's, it's like, it's a Lyndsay Soprano (26:01.239) I love this. Katie Lain (26:04.443) I would never thought I would be in this place. I was a daily drinker for nearly 10 years. I wanted to drink every free moment I had. So to be in this place where I just choose not to drink, even though I can drink as much as I want to, it just shows me how much my brain was hijacked by the addiction and how it can truly be reversed. Not through willpower, not because I call myself an alcoholic and I attend meetings every day, none of that. It's because neuroscience, my brain has been put back to where it was before I ever had my first drink of alcohol. Lyndsay Soprano (26:32.302) And it is I love that you continue to use the word hijacked throughout this entire episode and it's it's a good word because I do feel hijacked by it because You know I knew as a little girl that this was not the right thing to do that in high school Everybody starts drinking and they're going partying and we're smoking pot and lead lit my Volkswagen van smelled like bong water Yeah, yeah, I'm a total California Beach girl like as cliche as you can get Katie Lain (26:51.827) You had a Volkswagen van, oh my gosh, in California too? Oh my gosh, you are just the typical, you are. I love it. Lyndsay Soprano (27:01.102) But my van always smelled like bong water because everybody would throw themselves into my van and go to a party. my, my God, it was so gross. My van by the end of it smelled so gross. But we partied a lot, you know? And then you go to college and then you get into your sororities and you're hanging out with fraternity guys and then you're going that. And that is a very, very, very sad and scary part of my life. It's certainly my freshman year in college. Horrible things happened to me at a frat house. And was it because I was intoxicated? Sure. Was it also because of these gentlemen's behavior? 100%. And so you think about, oh my gosh, I blame me for putting myself in that situation for what happened to me, even though I should not think that way at all. But those stories, they go over and over and over time and they continue to sit in our bodies. And I believe wholeheartedly that a lot of why I have my health issues and a lot of why is because of those moments. in time that were so painful and so traumatic that I've just sat here and they're stuck. you're gonna have to heal from them, you're gonna have to get rid of the trauma, you're gonna have to at least cool the jets on the drinking, which I have cooled the jets on the drinking, but am I not drinking? No, absolutely not. I want to continue to drink, but I also don't. So it's that slippery slope. I'm a Gemini, so I'm like, they've got the devil and the angel all day long here and they drive me crazy. You know, and my husband thinks he's like, just like, you're just fine on Prosecco. You're good. But if you drink anything else, you're a complete monster. And I'm like, it's true. And so I chose I'm going to not drink hard liquor anymore. So I stopped that many, many years ago. And then I wasn't going to drink red wine anymore because I went from hard liquor to red wine thinking, well, this is much more sophisticated, you know. And then I was like, now I'm going to do instead of that, now I'm just going to do Prosecco because it's celebration. So I'm just celebrating life. I mean, give me a break with the excuses. Katie Lain (28:31.069) Mm. Katie Lain (28:49.351) Yeah. Katie Lain (28:53.011) Well, again, it's like the brain really wants it. It thinks it needs it for survival. So like if we're starving, we're trying to like, you know, put all our food in a pile and make sure we have enough, you know, we like, thankfully, none of us have ever been in like a famine before, I don't think we're listening to this. But I imagine that's... yes, hoarding. Lyndsay Soprano (29:10.712) Well, I mean, it's almost like with COVID where we were, in fact, Ms. Sweetie I were just talking about it, how we had, as soon as we could get toilet paper, we would, you know? Katie Lain (29:19.495) Yes, yes. And yeah, again, it's not, yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (29:23.66) It kind of comes from the survival mode to a certain extent. And who would have thought that we would have thought that we needed alcohol to survive? That sounds ridiculously uneducated. Katie Lain (29:34.461) But it, like I keep saying, hijacks the brain. It turns it into this compulsory need that is beyond our logic and reason. And one of our therapists always says, drinking isn't the problem. Excessive drinking is the problem. And so I get pushbacks sometimes because I advocate for a treatment that doesn't require abstinence. And like the teetotallers will be like, well, why not just quit? It's a poison. I'm like, well, sugar is a poison. I'm not going to be abstinent from sugar the rest of my life. They say it. Right. Exactly. Lyndsay Soprano (29:36.556) Yep, yep. Lyndsay Soprano (29:46.606) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (29:59.624) How's that Diet Coke treating you over there, honey? Throw stones. Throw stones. Katie Lain (30:03.645) So it's like, if we're having a reasonable amount of alcohol, and it's not over the top, I don't see any problem with that. And we're all adults, we can choose. And most people who do the Sinclair method do so to not quit. I'm probably the part of the more of the minority who did quit accidentally through this treatment. But like I said, I might drink again one day. just haven't had enough, kind of a strong enough desire to. Lyndsay Soprano (30:26.83) That is amazing and I can't wait to try it because you know I'm signing up for this thing. can we talk a little bit about how your program, how it works, how people get signed up, how like what they can expect when signing up to do this with you. Katie Lain (30:38.971) Yeah, so the program is all online. It's private, so people can share whatever information they want to, they can have a pseudonym. And it's all done on your own schedule. Like we have groups and things like that happening throughout the week at different times, but it's not like it interrupts your life in any way. We've had people join our program, one woman, she never even told her husband she was doing it because she was kind of hiding or drinking from him and Lyndsay Soprano (30:49.582) Ooh. Katie Lain (31:06.055) wanted to get it under control without making it a big deal and she did it. And so it's totally up to the person like when they sign up or if they do this, like who they tell, you know, what they say to people. But it's all online. We work with doctors in all 50 states through telemedicine that prescribe the medication. And then we have three different levels of support depending on what the person wants. We have kind of our starting level, which has the community and all of our videos that walk people through it. You can have unlimited messaging with coaches. And then the next level is access to our groups and our workshops. We have therapists and doctors come in to lead workshops and have live groups throughout the week via Zoom. And then the top level is for people who want one on one coaching in addition to everything else. kind of meets people where they're at, you know, in the type of support that they that they want. Lyndsay Soprano (31:59.31) That's awesome. How does it work as far as prescribing and prescription? Does it work with your insurance at all or how does that work? Katie Lain (32:08.795) Yeah, so technically naltrexone can be prescribed by any doctor. So I would say probably half the people in our program get their medication from their doctor, they learn about it online like I did or wherever and they get it and then they join our program to get the support. And then the doctors we work with through telemedicine, some of them are private pays, so they don't take insurance and others do accept insurance and send it to your local pharmacy. So if you have a prescription plan, you can use your insurance for that. Naltrexone is generic, so it's pretty cheap. If you go on GoodRx to get a coupon, I just saw one the other day for like $27 at Safeway or something like that. it's for a month or for 30 pills basically. So it's not an expensive medication even if someone doesn't have insurance. the doctor, like one of the doctors we worked with, his initial consult is $175 and then the prescription is Lyndsay Soprano (32:44.11) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (32:49.688) Now that's a bottle of wine. Lyndsay Soprano (32:56.621) Yeah. Katie Lain (33:05.811) 30 bucks, let's say, and he does accept some insurances. So part of that could be covered. So it's not like Lyndsay Soprano (33:09.326) Okay. Okay, so between state to state, depending upon where you are, what your insurance is like, and who the doctors are that work within the program within your state, you can then basically find out a little bit more about what the costs would be and so on and so forth. But there's a fixed cost though for your program at the different tiers, correct? Yeah, okay. Yeah. Katie Lain (33:28.147) Yes. And the program and the medication are separate just because like a lot of people join without the or with the medication already. So I always tell people like, estimate, you know, ballpark for the first three months of the medication and doctors visits, it's about 100 per month. So $300 to get started there might be a little less might be more depending on your insurance, but not much more. And then our program, the fees for our program, it starts at 99 per month and goes up to 349 per month. And then we have annual plans where people can pay up front and they get 30 % off. And so month to month, you you can join and stay as long as you want, cancel or for the year. A lot of people join for the year just because that's about how long it takes to see full results with the treatment, but you don't have to. Lyndsay Soprano (34:08.974) Sure, Yeah. Well, and I think initially, like for me right now, I'm in this place where I'm jumping in with both feet into a whole new world of things that are coming at me from the universe. Things that I've been putting out there, I'm like, I'm waiting. When are you showing up? And like I said to you right before we hopped on, the universe is pummeling with amazing people right now. I mean, I am just like, oh my God. Katie Lain (34:24.817) Hahaha Lyndsay Soprano (34:34.894) All of the things I've been trying to manifest are kind of happening. I'm like, whoa, slow down. Slow down, please. I got to talk to my spirit guides and ask them to slow down. I know I said I wanted to go in full hot and heavy here, but this is a bit much. But it's been really amazing the people that are coming into my world just at the right time where I need them. And you're one of them. Because I know that I want to get better about my alcohol consumption when I've got days where I absolutely don't have anything. Katie Lain (34:49.171) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (35:02.498) Then I have days when I'm like, my bestie showed up. And we're like, how did we drink five bottles of Prosecco tonight? How did that even happen? And because we just get chit chatty and then she stands up and she fills up my glass, I don't even know whether that was one or whether that was two. And the next thing we know, it's like, boom, and we're done. And so those kinds of things are going to be challenging. But then when I'm listening to you talking about it, I'm like, I don't feel like it's going to be as big of a challenge as we all think it is now. Because you've given a little bit of hope where Katie Lain (35:14.899) Yup. Lyndsay Soprano (35:30.582) It's not this whole quitting thing. not going to AA meetings. We've got groups that are together. You can be anonymous in a different way. I mean, there's just, there's, I love the whole idea of it. And where, why the hell do more people know about this? Katie Lain (35:44.613) I know. Well, and the one... Lyndsay Soprano (35:47.02) Is the alcohol industry like putting the kibosh on it on Google search? Katie Lain (35:51.099) It kind of, there's a couple things. And I will say too, like this treatment is full of grace and it's very gentle because in the first month or two, we're telling people just get the medication and start there. Don't even try to cut back or have alcohol free days. Just drink like you normally would and take the medication before. Because just by taking that, you're already starting to change a lot. Like it's getting to work on helping your brain unlearn it. So it's a very gentle... Lyndsay Soprano (36:12.77) Mm-hmm. Katie Lain (36:17.075) gradual process where like abstinence is like ripping off the bandaid, you got to figure everything else out. This is much more sustainable and it works like it really meets you where you're at, whether you're a daily drinker around the clock or you only binge drink on the weekends or somewhere in between. So I just want to say that. But why don't more people know about it? This is a conversation I have a lot. There's a few reasons from what I've learned since 2017. Lyndsay Soprano (36:21.702) my gosh, seriously. Lyndsay Soprano (36:31.118) Mm-hmm. Katie Lain (36:41.827) One of them is that naltrexone is a generic medicine. So there's no pharmaceutical company out there advertising it and making a bunch of money on it. There's no money to be made on the medication. So the way medication gets in the hands of people is because they're charging a bunch for it and putting ads on TV or telling your doctor. And that's just not happening with naltrexone. I recently saw an article that said 13%, I think I mentioned that 13 % or less of doctors are even aware of this or using it. So... Lyndsay Soprano (36:55.928) Right, yeah. Katie Lain (37:08.271) most doctors who would be asking their patients about their drinking and giving them naltrexone if they're drinking too much, they're just not even aware of it. So that's a huge barrier. And also the treatment industry has been set up as an abstinence-based treatment where it's like you go to detox, you spend 28 days in rehab, and then you get out and go to AA. And it's all AA-based, which is abstinence is the first step. You have one drink, you're back to day one, and the Sinclair method completely flips that on its head. It's like don't quit drinking, keep drinking, in fact, and just start using this medication therapy beforehand. So the industry that would be promoting this is not set up to support people who are currently drinking. And the sad truth is that 80 % or more of people will relapse within six months of leaving treatment. And I've heard people in the field tell me that they count on repeat customers. And especially if the insurance companies are paying for that 30 grand a month rehab, you know, they're going to keep coming back. It's a billion dollar. Lyndsay Soprano (38:03.374) course. Katie Lain (38:06.821) industry multi-billion. And then also, like, oddly enough, like Instagram and Facebook, they don't let the hashtag Neltrexone, they blocked that. My Facebook page is shadow banned, my YouTube used to grow, and now it kind of just like grows barely. So there are some questionable practices where, like, I just keep hitting walls, like with my advocacy work and my videos. It's not, yeah, it's it's not. Lyndsay Soprano (38:15.565) What? Lyndsay Soprano (38:31.714) That makes me so angry at social media. mean, and the things that they let through versus the things they don't. We're trying to heal ourselves and get better. And they're like, nope, we're gonna keep you sick and drunk. Katie Lain (38:45.575) And then blocking the hashtag naltrexone is the craziest thing because naltrexone, it's not addictive. It's generic. You can literally easily get a prescription. Some countries it's over the counter. So I'm like, you know, it's one thing if they would block fentanyl like an addictive drug. I don't know if that's blocked, but naltrexone it's like blocking Tylenol. It's like, why is that blocked? That happened a few years ago. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (38:49.464) That makes no sense. Lyndsay Soprano (39:08.044) And Tylenol is as bad for our liver as liquor is. Because I'm a doctor. Certainly not good for you. Katie Lain (39:10.883) Yeah, so I've, yeah, I've heard some stories of stomach issues on different over-the-counter pain medicines. Lyndsay Soprano (39:17.388) my gosh. yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tummy issues beyond because I don't do the pain thing. I don't do the opiate thing. I do THC and CBD and here and there I will do Tylenol or ibuprofen or both together, but which is also really terrible to do. But it's like, or yeah, yeah. In low dose here and there. But if you're doing a couple Tylenol and two ibuprofen and change, then I'm down with some vodka. It's probably not the best idea, guys. It's just probably not. Katie Lain (39:25.235) Yeah. Katie Lain (39:35.931) Really? Huh. Katie Lain (39:49.371) Yeah, personal advice, tip. Lyndsay Soprano (39:50.19) Yes, personal advice, little tip, little tip. That's what we're here for. Just the tip, guys, just the tip. So, okay, so how can we find you? All over the place. She's at Thrive Alcohol Recovery. So you can basically find her on Insta, on Facebook, on YouTube, Twitter, which isn't even a thing anymore, so don't go there. The website that you can find her at is thrivealcoholrecovery.com. Her name is Katie Lane, and you can find her on LinkedIn as well. She has a podcast. She also has a TikTok. I mean, she's all over the place. So we'll put us in show notes and in social and all that jazz. So do take a look at her program and what she's all about. Before we hit the dusty trail here, do you have anything that you wanna leave us with behind before we jam? Katie Lain (40:37.725) Well, I did want to bring up because you mentioned Lodo Snelltrexone being used for paint. Did you want to touch on that at all? Lyndsay Soprano (40:42.774) yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So thank you for circling back to my first thing. Yeah, actually there was somebody that I've been working with in regards to CRPS pain and they had brought up low dose naltrexone for pain and very, very low. And then they said, but you can't drink alcohol on it because it will make you sick. Right, so what I did, and this is coming from a doctor. And so I'm like, okay, well, I'm still gonna try it. Katie Lain (41:03.155) That's not true. Lyndsay Soprano (41:11.219) and see if it makes me sick. Lyndsay Soprano (41:18.518) test this theory, motherfucker. I am going to test it. And I did and it didn't make me sick. So anyway, but it did actually help it a little bit as far as my pain is concerned. So when I met you and I heard nalchexone and then the alcohol, mean, I'm like, this is a total win for me for a couple reasons. So I'm hoping that it will well, a and less drinking will lower my inflammation, which will lower my pain as well, because we do it for because we're in pain. then it obviously Katie Lain (41:27.517) Mm-hmm. Katie Lain (41:34.877) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (41:46.35) causes other problems too that cause pain. So it's like, oh man, God, I'm so smart and I'm so stupid at the same time, know, it drives me nuts. But so I'm definitely looking into the program for sure for both of those reasons, because I can't even imagine those two things together are like a winning combination for me. If we can get that down and that up, oh my gosh, that would be amazing. Yeah. Katie Lain (42:07.195) Yeah, and I actually asked our medical advisor about this because people were because so many people I know I'm actually on low dose naltrexone for other things for sugar cravings. Actually, I went on it for pain originally, but then my pain resolved in another way. And I'm like, can help with the food noise and stuff again, because it's just working in that reward center in the brain. But Lyndsay Soprano (42:16.014) Lyndsay Soprano (42:29.88) crazy. Katie Lain (42:30.931) I've asked my medical advisor if low dose naltrexone could help with alcohol, like is that an adequate dose? And he said, it might help reduce the craving for the first drink, but it's not enough to block like the alcohol while you're drinking the reward from the alcohol. So I've, you know, some people who are super sensitive to the high dose of naltrexone started a low dose and just gradually work up because there's about 15 % of people that have like nausea as a side effect for naltrexone. But yeah, Lyndsay Soprano (42:45.123) Hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (42:59.712) Just take a little Zofran, you'll be fine. Katie Lain (43:01.647) Yes, exactly. And actually, that can help some people with alcohol addiction. Zofran can as well with certain genetics. Yeah, it's interesting. But to your point, your doctor saying you get sick on it. I think a lot of doctors confuse it with an abuse, which if you drink on an abuse, you get violently ill. Naltrexone is not an abuse. It's not intended to make you feel sick. It just mutes the reward. So then you repeatedly don't get the reward and your brain stops equating alcohol to this reward. But it's not designed to like make you sick when you drink on it. Lyndsay Soprano (43:05.848) Yeah, interesting. So cool. Lyndsay Soprano (43:18.702) Hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (43:29.826) We learn so much here at the Pain Game podcast. It's true, we do. my gosh, not only is it helpful, it's educational, which I love. love, well, we learn so much here and doing more research on it, obviously in order to speak with you today, just, I'm dumbfounded the ease of like, it just seems too good to be true, but hey, but I'm in. It's not, it's not, yeah. Right, right. Katie Lain (43:31.923) Yes, I hope this was helpful. Katie Lain (43:51.025) it does. It's not. Yeah, and there's like, it's not just me, I didn't invent this. There's research like people can look it up. By the way, there's a book, The Cure for Alcoholism by Dr. Roya Scapa. It's all about the Sinclair method and the science behind it. It's a pretty easy read. It's not like too heady or anything. It's on audible. So if people want to dip their toe in the water and learn about this treatment, that's a great resource. Lyndsay Soprano (44:16.706) That's wonderful. Thank you so much for that. Yeah Again, I'll put all this in show notes to and in social in our email marketing stuff So is there anything that you want to leave us with before we jam out of here? Katie Lain (44:26.845) I don't think so. I mean, I could talk about this for hours and hours. I think I'll leave with that. I just encourage people like, alcohol dependence can impact anyone. It doesn't discriminate. And just because you may be struggling with your alcohol doesn't mean you have to call yourself an alcoholic. I kind of view it like, you know, weight loss thing. Like if we gain too much weight, it's just because we've had some bad habits and it's reversible and we're not like labeled and shamed for it. You know, you can make make the changes and Lyndsay Soprano (44:29.614) I obviously can talk forever. Katie Lain (44:54.553) neuroscience has proven that this treatment is effective for decades. So if someone's struggling, just look into this treatment, you really have nothing to lose by by trying it and don't beat yourself up for it. Like I said, I've met so many people who are just incredible, smart, successful people who've struggled with alcohol, it impacts more people than we we realize. So yeah, be your own advocate and look into the treatment. Lyndsay Soprano (45:18.702) Thank you, I love that. Be your own advocate. We say that all the time on this show, because you have to. I mean, that's it. You're the only one that's going to get the ball rolling. I mean, honestly, mean, like I always say, you can bring the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink. You can drown it. Katie Lain (45:23.752) Yeah. Katie Lain (45:27.144) Yeah. Katie Lain (45:31.923) Yeah. Yeah. But that kind of defeats the purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (45:35.79) And that defeated the entire purpose of getting you to drink water, honey. All right, well thank you so much for your time with me today. I really appreciate it I can't wait to get started with you because this is going to be such, like I said, the universe is doing amazing things right now and you're part of it. So thank you so very much. Katie Lain (45:50.525) So cool. Thank you, Lindsay. It was great to be here. Lyndsay Soprano (45:52.898) Thank you so much. So before we get out of here, I have a new bite sized extension of the pain game podcast called pain bites. They're little tiny bites of what cracked you open this week, what stitched you back together. So what I have is on Insta in the bio, there's my link there in the link, you can click on it and there's a little form that you fill out and you can upload your voice note to it. And you can basically bitch and complain. You can cry, you can sob. You can tell me all the things that are wonderful in life. You can tell me the things that are breaking you and just cutting you into bits and pieces. and how I can help put you back together. So what I do is I end up taking those voice notes, I put them into a mini little episode and then I talk about it before and I talk about you after and I tell you how wonderful you are. So I don't know if you wanna be wonderful, but if you want to, go to the link in the bio in my Insta, click on pain bites and submit yours. Cause if you do, we're sharing your voice, right? One bite at a time. Even if you don't wanna be heard, this is one way to do it. So you are exclusively invited to share this thriving, not surviving, Brain hijack free VIP pain journey together. Let's get to the heart of how to heal with you by my side. Please follow The Pain Game podcast wherever you digest your podcast content. We will be there. Visit us at thepaingamepodcast.com and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening, my little VIPs. Catch you on the other side.