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Occultinarium - EP 30 - 9 of Disks/Pentacles · OCCULTINARIUM

• Lynn: Hello and welcome to tonight's episode of the Occultinarium. We are the voices of the Occultinarium and tonight's hosts are Luigi: Luigi HEAL: Adriana. Amelie: Amelie Lynn: And Lynn. welcome, welcome. Tonight is the thirty first of August twenty twenty six as we are recording. And we shall continue our tarot sessions. and tonight's card that we shall be talking about, or the decan rather, and the corresponding card is the second deckan of Virgo. And as it so happens, that is the nine of discs or nine of pentacles. As you shall see here's this the classic Smith and the Thoth version. And Amelie has the Hermetic and the Golden Dawn version on her end, which we shall also look into during this episode. Disclaimer, we are mostly familiar with the Smith and the Thoth version, and we kind of stumble through the Hermetic and the Golden Dawn symbolism. as we unfold our episodes. That's that's been the spirit. Alright, well we are just Amelie: We are too curious not to have them in there. Lynn: Yes, now we just have to keep them in there and it it's interesting. I find it very interesting to to see the differences and the like the likenesses of these. Especially with the thought. Yeah. which is kind of interesting because a lot of decks are based off of the Smith deck and the way that we are presenting most of the cards are very similar to the thought. So it tips the scales a little bit. Mm. Anyway, we're just coming from the first decad of Virgo. you can check out our episode we recorded and have posted at this point. and in the first decan of Virgo the energies we were facing were energies where it's more about sitting back and letting things grow naturally rather than meddling with things. It's about being patient, sitting still, watching, listening. and now we're done with that. In the second dec end decan we are more in an energy of now that we understand how the world works because we've watched it, we are now creating our own world. The rulers of this Deccan in the descending order is Venus in Virgo. And in the triplicity order it is Saturn. and for those of you who are Astro nerds, Venus is actually not very happy in Virgo. Venus is in our fall in Virgo. And well with Saturn we do have all the restrictions as well, right? for the Deccan itself it's a little bit more about concealment and in the sense that you conceal all the labor that it actually took to reach the perfection that you're in now and it could mean a little bit being disconnected actually from your own creation so you it's like when you It's like this idea that some people have that steak grows on trees if you're so far away from how a process actually is well from the process itself that you know you just take the end product but you do not understand how it gets there and you don't understand that there's a whole thing about a cow like a baby cow being born and it being raised and then in various versions of animal what's the word? The other word is not cruelty, you know, because they if it's animal cruelty or if the cow is like a free roaming cow that is happy and then it gets slaughtered and then it gets, you know, all that. Sorry for the fiends out there. That was a very But I think yeah I guess you you get the drift of like we're very when we can be very far away from what it actually takes to then have the steak on the plate or the perfect salad or whatnot, right? There's a lot of labour that goes into this. so yeah. Yeah. let's jump into the the cards. HEAL: Yeah, well yeah I think there is a transition and an evolution that is beautifully expressed during Virgo that is the Eight of Pentacles nine and the following week the last decade for Virgo is the ten of Pentacles. So it shows like an evolution that is the disc the sun it was the final ruler and It was the message it was prudence and as as Lynn said, like patience, like waiting for things to be fruitful and and try to learn and have that introspect process that when things are not there yet, but we have to have the conviction that they are producing something positive. That is probably the message in hold that it was the In the Tree of Life, where there is this sense of prudence and the scientific aspect of the analysis, but at the same time it's something that you don't celebrate. Now with the nine, we have Venus and and this material gain, because this is this card, the nine of pentacles, is called the Lord of Material Gain. And is in Yesod And Yesod is the foundation, but at the same time, Jesus have a much deeper sense that is related to the subconscious mind, the thing that revealed what is behind, what is hidden, that what is the thing that we need to achieve. So it gives a further dimension to this card. And then next second it will be the 10 that it is like Mercury and In Malkuth, that it will be the wealth. So it's the prudest where the things are growing, the material gain, and then the achievement that is the wealth that is really when you have established your material structure. So to me, Venus in Virgo as well have a paradox as you were saying. But I think there are like a correlation to go deeper, it's an invitation for you to refine the emotional Virgo because Venus, because Venus is is love, is beauty, is pleasure, is attraction, is fertility, is sensuality, is harmony, but it just get you know confronted with or amalgamated with Virgo that is mind, that is discrimination, is refinement, is analysis, is purifications. So it's like forcing Virgo to become selective, is like giving an elegance to what was natural and brute. So to me is generally speaking is like an invitation to asking you what is genuinable for you. What is the real mean meaning of have this opulence? Where that comes from, what it deserves to be cultivated, what is the beautiful, because it is well made, it is refined, it's a material pleasure, but equally you have a shadow aspect, because the actual shadow aspect it will be that I need to possess more and more things to feel valuable. And just thought Push you, push you to go deeply into your subconscious mind to add deeper meaning, to hide in the meaning and ask yourself own questions, you know. And that's what is beautiful in Taro is that it's not the divination aspect or thing like that, but it's the questioning or how force you to connect with your own subconscious mind to refine and and to understand more about yourself. So this card again. as as we said it it belongs to the ninth or to Yesod that is in the Asia that is the world of material and the action. So it's an invitation for you just to enjoy it to have pleasure for the things that you consider that you rightfully made it because it's the process that you passed through the eight. So it's not a wealth that came or an open or material gain that you became just by luck or you know handed to you as an inheritance or anything. It's something you built. It's something that you made. It's a process that you have been taking place that you can be proud of. So is it's giving you self-confidence and it's giving you this pride and independence and freedom. And I think that is the real message is that Learn to recognize the beautiful things that you have, even if they are not perfect, but at the same time be proud that you create them. That but obviously think in the shadow aspect as well, that you can become probably overconfident or you are you hiding your insecurity, your inner insecurity with the material gain that you have created. So I think this card is a card that you can take it not only to celebrate the thing that you have created, but to discover as well how you can put in balance Venus with Virgo because they are quite opposite. So the major arcanus for Virgo is the hermit and for the Venus is the Empress. So there are two characters that are completely opposite and different themselves, but they can complement and enrich each other. And I think that is the accomplishment of this car. And in the fact that you see is a woman. She's alone. She is in a garden that is fruitful and is, you know. full of richness, is a symbolist of wealth, but is a woman. And she's alone. So this card as well is for the lonely people who live very happily being by themselves with their own life. In relationship can be like that there is a a fruitful relationship because both of the parties respect each other, they value and respect each other. in business can be like the a contract that you have put on all the work is soon or is giving fruit in a very positive way and that your business is doing well, is get is growing and is getting independent so it's working by itself. So you can Really give a lot of this different aspect that is not only for your personal life but for the things around you if you get these nine of pentacles. So yes, refine abundance enjoyment of what has been cultivated but is more a material security the things that you have created through your refinement and own discipline. So we have that and also we have the aspect of the nine of the Jet So that half the car is the moon. So again, so it's association of the Major Arcana the Hermit, the Empress and the Moon together, and it can give you that purification and refinement that is what you need to achieve in life. Again, think in the shadow aspect that it can be as well be taken and you have to ponder about if it's the material aspect of the creations that you have created in your life to give you security is to hide your own insecurities or the success is a reflection of your inner side. Lynn: To jump up on on that with Yesod the the nine Sephira or being connected with the moon and how the moon is also about reflections, right? It is the the one thing in the in the in the night sky that reflects the light of the sun and invites us as well to reflect and seeing to the eighth f coming from the eighth of disks to the nine of disks, it could be this kind of reflection of the actual work and how we have seen how. how things function, how things are being put together and reflecting on that and then taking it into our own life and making something out of it or reflecting on the fruits that we have grown or have let the earth grow by itself with a little bit of help possibly but the earth has grown it, nature has grown it, refle reflect on that and then take on the fruits and enjoy the the fruits of the labor quite literally. It's about changing things and it's about the cycle ending. Yes. Mm. HEAL: And manifestation manifestation and you know things like a very earthly, earthly, like material aspect of life. So but as well there is a transcendence about you as a your accomplishment and a your achievement as a person as well. You know, so it's a reflection of your own self. Lynn: Sure, we talked about this in the last episode when we talk started talking about Virgo because the the Virgo symbolism itself actually used to be very different from what it is now because now we're seeing Virgo and we're thinking like virgin or something, and it's not actually the original image whatsoever. The original image we're going into goddesses like Demeter, for example, goddesses HEAL: Yeah. Lynn: who were connected with the harvesting, and harvesting means you are very discerned. about what gets to live, what you cut, what gets put back into the soil to to die. So this balance of I choose this, I do not choose this, this gets to live, and that that is the the the vergo the Virgo energy of going or preparing for the material to die and be recycled back into earth to then rise back up again with well the the the cardinal energies. Yeah. yeah, well another thing I wanted to jump on is that the the shadow side you mentioned. 'cause yeah, like we see in the Smith card, right, that it's it's a little bit like I I made my you have this lady standing here like you described in the middle of her garden with the fruits and all the pentacles are also shown as the fruits and she has a hawk symbol of wealth, and only the the top nobility could afford hawks. So it's a bit like I don't need anybody because I did this all myself. But the shadow side also of this is isolation and loneliness and all that, right? Like w is she that HEAL: Mm-hmm. Lynn: happy when she goes to bed at night or you know, we don't know. the hawk though, because we usually see it as just a symbol of like nobility, but a hawk, when we think about the utility of a hawk, it's a hunter, right? you use it HEAL: Yeah. Lynn: to kill things. So she has control there's there's some interpretations where the hawk is seen as like a a a version of ego and she's now like in control of her ego. But if you're just taking quite literally, she has a little killer in her hand that she can use to eradicate all the pests in her garden. HEAL: It's a symbol of power. Symbol of power, yes, yes. Lynn: Yes, it is power, it's definitely power. As long as the heart plays along, you know. HEAL: Mm. But she is very refined and that's the aspect of Virgo as well. That the the mind of Virgo is always like discrimination and precision and refinement and analysis. And sometimes you you find that their mood is quite difficult because they are very critical as well. So and there is the aspect of the Hermit that is very melancholy. So It made them a a difficult character and particular so it's what you were saying about the paradox between Virgo and in in and Venus in Virgo, because Venus is the opposite, it's fertility, sensuality, it's abundance, it's everything like that. Yes. Lynn: Venus is like the extroverted version, you know? It's the feminine extrovert version. That's Venus. She just wants to play, she wants to have fun, you know, she's woo, an Aphrodite, HEAL: Yes. Lynn: you know, and then you have Dimeter who or, you know, then you have the another feminine HEAL: Yes. Lynn: power, but it's the feminine power HEAL: Yes. Lynn: of growing things and being a bit more reserved with your energies or yeah more discerned in what you're doing rather than just look cool I'm shining and I'm doing stuff and I'm having fun and HEAL: Yes. And Lynn: the the Virgo energy is not always so much about fun. It's more about the work HEAL: No. Lynn: and making everything better. yes. Amelie: This is why her garden is so immaculate. It's like it's immaculate, Lynn: The garden is immaculate, yes. Except we have a little Yeah. The snail the snail as far as I remember supposed to represent how just how long it takes, the toil and the effort, you know, you have to move slow. It's not something that happens quickly, something that like the wealth HEAL: Mm. Lynn: that she has now, she didn't she didn't find it overnight, she didn't inherit it like you said, Adriana. It's it's built on decades of of labour to create these perfect grapes and this wonderful garden. So it's a slow process. process and it's the patience you need. But also it's a slow or it's a snail and they kind of eat your crops. So I'm not sure anybody ever picked up on that little detail as well because in a way I know it's Amelie: If you don't eat it, they will. Lynn: it might HEAL: But but she Lynn: eat your crops. HEAL: she has the hawk there, the the hawk the the bird to eat it. Lynn: Yes. Hawks don't eat slugs though. So there's a little bit of a disconnect. I'm not Vergian right now at all with nitpicking. I'm gonna shut up. Do we Do we wanna do we wanna go HEAL: huh. Lynn: into the the Thoth the thoth card and symbolism as well? Luigi: Before we do that, can we just Lynn: Yes. Luigi: add a final couple of details on the Smith so that we can fully move on the other ones? Lynn: Yes. Luigi: I think b on top of everything else that's been shared so far by everyone else, there are f a couple of things that strike me at least. one would I I can't I'm counting s yeah, six and three. Lynn: five and the three you like or the the six I mean the six and the three. The six and three. Luigi: So I'm I like that you point that out because I remember how we noticed or we pointed out on the eight of pentacles or the eight of discs, however we wanna refer to it, there were also six separate pentacles versus the HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: yeah, there you go. So you got six in a line pentacles and then you got either the one individual and the one individual or if you wanna count them together the two individuals. And now here in this progression you have still six united pentacles versus the three separate. So it's almost HEAL: Mm-hmm. Luigi: as if the energy of Tiffret carries over. And I think what's that what the hint for that is, or what's that hinting towards rather, possibly it's a reference to the fixed sign of Earth, Taurus. Because obviously you notice the grapes, you know, in the background, which yes they can be a reference to the harvest season 'cause usually usually it's like the season of September it's when you you know, you I forgot the terms for it, but basically you pick up the grapes and you start making the wine. I say that because my stepdad used to own a wine cellar. So this was typical season where everybody gets to work and everybody gets the Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Lynn: Everybody gets busy. No free time. The children are just put into the wine bottom bo bot thingies and they HEAL: Sure. Lynn: just have to Yeah. Luigi: Yeah, and obviously you see the grapes in the background of the King of Pentacles, you know, the core Lynn: Mm. Luigi: card belongs to Taurus. HEAL: Yeah. Yes. Luigi: the six i is the s is is a sun symbolism or or rather a a s a sun ruled number. and so is all of the fixed signs of the zodiac in a way are connected to the sun, but particularly HEAL: Mm. Luigi: in this case Taurus for reason that maybe we'll cover when we get to the Taurus Deacons and the major corresponding to it. I like the present as well. Despite being nine, you know, in this myth deck and being esotic, you know, being lunar, there is still a huge prevalence of yellow, isn't it? and a huge HEAL: Yes. Luigi: pre pre prevalence, if that if I said the word correctly, of green as well. And I think the the game there, if you wanna call it the game, yellow being a color of Leo, you know, the the sign comes before Virgo and green being a colour of Libra, the sign that comes after Virgo. So it's nice that those two colors are very much exposed into the card, asking us to reflect on the season of pleasure, the season of work and the season of change. Lynn: We also have quite a bit of red, in it. Especially on the lady herself, HEAL: Yeah. But Lynn: right? The red hood Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: on the Falcon, she also wears a red hood. Luigi: Mm-hmm. HEAL: But you know the the colours for Yesdod is violet or purple. And for Venus Lynn: Mm. HEAL: is green, rose or copper. For virgo is olive, muted green and the earthly tones. And Lynn: Mm-hmm. HEAL: for earth is black, olive and again all the ochres and all these colours. So I think in the background there we have the the olives there are purple and the greens Lynn: Mm. HEAL: and the earthy colors and the dark colors, you know. We can see that it's a reference to all these Yesdod and all the Virgo and the Venus card Lynn: Yes. Some s yeah, it's quite Venusian. Mm. Luigi: Yeah, I mean if you wanna stretch the imagination as well, like obviously HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: keep the rational minds you know in place, but if you wanna stretch the imagination, like the grapes can in my in my imaginatory vision or imagination based vision, they can kind of represent either version or let's call them cousins of or representations of the prom Pomegranate seeds, which is a very lunar symbol as well, isn't it? HEAL: Mm, mm. Luigi: so there's that that you can play with if you wish. Amelie: I was just thinking about when we were talking about the pentacles being separated. Luigi: Mm-hmm. Amelie: Cause she kind of acts like the abyss. So she cuts off the three pentacles, which is the top three. Luigi: The Supernals Amelie: So that kind of makes the the other six very material well, not very material, but that's kind of like that's when things starting to Become Luigi: l below and lower Lynn: Yeah. Luigi: than the supernal energy and emanation and Lynn: And also the way that she's touch or it seems like she's touching these as if to say that I claim these as mine. And then you have the other three being on the side that is a bit more like say lofty, 'cause that's where her where the falcon is Amelie: Yeah. Lynn: or the hawk and where she's directing her face. Amelie: Because those three there's nothing she can really do anything about them. They're out of her reach. HEAL: But her robe connected. Luigi: Yeah, but it's interesting that you've got the three and the six and the nine contained in the card, isn't it? Like that HEAL: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Luigi: that numerological connection. And I guess because this is a harvest card as well, like its energy is very much in connection to the harvest, you can see this the three as the seed, the the six as the blossom and the nine as the fruit, if you will. And I know that there is a principle in Hermatic Quabbalah about the the nines being the the the basically the what's the word that I'm looking for? I lost it. So na three is the seed again and nine is the floral, the flower of the three, this the flower of the seed basically. so there's a very strong connection between the three and nines beyond the numerological connection. But also with the three separate pentacles I suppose you can attach them to the powers and the energies of Bina and b Bina belonging to Saturn. Sat the nine is also a Saturnian number, as well as a lunar number in this case. Lynn: Yeah. And the ducan is HEAL: Mm. Lynn: also connected to Saturn, so we do have that as well. Not in the tarot, but in the in the other in the Picatrix. Luigi: Yeah. But in the tri triplicity order. Lynn: Yeah, in the triplicity order in the Picatrix, yeah. Luigi: Yeah, and I think although we need to acknowledge the fact that Venus is in full with this particular card, I suppose, or with the with the sign itself, for some reason, for clearly esoteric reasons, they really seem to promote each other's well being, you know. Like there is always going to be this is not the first time that we're gonna encounter a strong relationship between Venus and the moon, between those divine feminine energies. 'Cause even obviously we'll explore the hermit more in detail, but even in the hermit, the hermit holds the lantern the of Venus, the magical weapon of Venus. So there is clearly a strong connection there, probably connecting to the what are they called again, the Eloish Eleusinians mysteries. I think a lot of Taro wants to teach a lot of what the esoterics want to pass on to past, present and future generation are the secret principles of the Eleusinian mysteries. Obviously we cannot call ourselves experts on, but we got some notion of Lynn: Thank you for the for the insight. HEAL: And these mysteries are what? Luigi: coming from someone who hasn't been initiated, I don't know very much of the details of it, but I think it they're all connected to the myth of life and death, the myth of Demeter in search for Persephone, and the fact that from summer comes winter, from winter comes spring, from spring from spring comes summer, you know, and so forth. It's the cycle of life. So according HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: to what's available, you know, in terms of resources, these mysteries for whoever gets initiated in them, and they were very secret, at least in Greek times, you know, they used to kill people, they used to steal the beans, so to speak, and they didn't maintain the silence. but you will teach the initiate to experience personal death, therefore experiencing an a higher self-related rebirth and a bigger connection to the To the sel the true self and therefore to the higher self. Lynn: Let's get into the thoth card. thank you Luigi: Yes. Lynn: yes. so in the thoth card which we have here, thank you, Thoth twin. So Luigi: huh. Amelie: Let's Thoth together. Lynn: yes, so in the thoth card we can see we can see three discs in the middle in the colours of reddish, blue and green. These three circles are s representing the three basic elements or the the fire and the blue is the water the blue you can see the green is the water and the blue is the air. And so we're having a lot of these Venusian or we can also we know that V Venus also has the green colours. So we have the Venusian green colours, a bit HEAL: Mm-hmm. Lynn: of the blues, and we having some darker earthy colors in the background, also some ochre mixed in the background. out from the pillars that are behind those circles I have read that this top one is also supposed to represent the fire and the bottom one is supposed to represent the waters. We can discuss that, but that is what I read. So we're having three circles here in the middle representing elements, and then we're having six coins around them with various you probably won't be able to see it on the recording, but with various heads on them here Luigi: Yeah, the the symbols within the the circles or the spheres if you want if you will, like the top one will be a symbol of Saturn and then if I look at the card, bottom well not bottom, lower right, that would be a Jupiterian symbol, lower left a Martial symbol. And then if you go into the yeah Lynn: yes the elements, isn't it? Yeah. the the planets I mean, yeah, representing the the planetarian energies. Luigi: Yeah, and then if you go on the lower end of the card, so the very bottom circle or sphere that would be lunar symbol, then on the higher left Mercury and the higher right Venus, giving you another interpretation or another visual on the trajectory of the tree of life and the saphirot related to it. HEAL: Yesod, but how? Lynn: this is Luigi: At the very bottom. So the purple I mean it looks purple on on the screen, but that one HEAL: Okay, that's the violet purple, I say the yeah, the purple violet color, just thought. Yes. I say Virgo there, yes. Luigi: Yeah. you can see it from Amelie's screen as well. So there's a lunar symbol in it. If you notice on the on the higher Lynn: Right. Luigi: left you got like the horns on top of that figure, that will be a Mercurial symbol. And on the higher right there's like a maiden or a divine feminine symbol that would be in relation to Netzak. So that shows you HEAL: Venus? Okay. Luigi: the so yeah, that shows you the lower triad of of the tree. Whether b above there there you go, there you have it the top one has a Saturnian symbol in it. Below it on the right, you have an individual wearing a crown, which is one of the magical symbols of Hesed and therefore Jupiter. And on the left you will see that there is an arrow pointing out of the head of the individual that looks like a warrior, being a martial symbol, so a symbol of Gebora. HEAL: Okay. Lynn: Enlightening as ever. I love it. Amelie: Sometimes it's really helpful to look at these 'cause they're so small when you look at the card, but when you put it up Lynn: Yeah. Amelie: to camera you get a little bit of a zoomed in version of it. Yes. Luigi: You gotta zoom in. Lynn: The zoom, the zoom, yeah, yeah, HEAL: Amelie, what did Luigi: I just HEAL: Card say to you? Amelie: What this card say say to me when I look at this card just visually to me, I see myself as on top of the branches, looking down. Does it make sense? It's like they it's Luigi: like yeah, like climbing an actual tree. Amelie: yeah, like I'm the cause you see it from the from the top and you can see them just growing past while the black is the earth Lynn: Bird's perspective. Amelie: exactly. I for some reason I always seen this card from that perspective weirdly in a yeah. Maybe Lynn: I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Luigi: A view from above, a view from up high. Amelie: it's the from from the hawk's perspective. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Mm. I like that. Yeah. Luigi: Mean if I forget all that I know about the card and I just look at the visuals like you just did, Amelie, HEAL: Mm. Luigi: it looks like a shooting star, like like or like an ex not an explosion of star, like not a supernova necessarily, but it really feels like the star with its arms bri reaching out and all the light emanating from it. Yeah, yeah. Like or a crystallized one. Lynn: Like a biological firework, like a tree. Yeah. I think yeah. Hmm. I think the colours there just seeming so positive that it's just like, you know, having all this energy or all this well game, right? It's yeah, I just really like I like looking at it. It's just like you know, you get the card, it's like good stuff coming your way, probably. Luigi: Yeah, and I guess with all that Venusian Amelie: It feels Lynn: Yeah, it's just very positive. Luigi: Green with all the Venusian Green it's Lynn: Mm. Luigi: even emphasizes further the the possible relationship and or connection to the Taurus energy and maybe perhaps the Six of Pentacles if we want, Venus being the ruler of Taurus. Amelie: I like how the colours are also not the same and specifically on this side, 'cause you know when you painting and if you paint something with a shadow or with some kind of mirror, it always goes so it's darker here and it kind of goes lighter here and it just feels like the water is reflecting the other elements. Luigi: Mm, yeah. Amelie: They combine together, but it just feels like this side is reflecting the elements in the water. Luigi: Magical. Lynn: like to see the hermetic HEAL: Well Lynn: and the Dawn curious. I mean I see. Yes. Amelie: The hermetic one is obviously black and white, so Lynn: We have that. And we have a rose we have a rose bush growing that's been growing since I don't know which one, but we already have it in the eighth where it was starting to grow Amelie: Mm-hmm. Lynn: and then in the nine it's it's a full blown rose bush with thorns. HEAL: Flourish Yeah. Lynn: Yeah. So it's very beautiful but I I like the the the fact that the thorns are quite Mercury retro yes. Luigi: I keep Lynn: Spikey or prominent was the was the word I was Luigi: From an in. Lynn: looking for. Yeah, it's prominent. Like it's not the the thorns are not hidden. They're really there. and then you Luigi: Mm. Lynn: have like one one pet or one flower for per per pentacle. and and no spoilers for the ten, I guess. Amelie: It looks a little bit overgrown. Luigi: fair to attach an element of what's the word that I'm looking for? No sadness necessarily, but you know, like cause like you were pointing, spines or thorns, they're very prominent in the card. So it's reminding about as well as the sweetness comes the sour. So maybe that's another reflection of the season changing as well as the sacrifice of crops and Not just crops alone, even even at least not now for all the wrong reasons, but once upon a time, I suppose for valid reason, even the sacrifice of the animals for the sustenance through the winter. there's a very interesting verse in a pagan song that we sing corn and grain, corn and grain, all that growth shall die again. I think that be reborn. Lynn: Hoof and horn, hoof and horn. All the dyes shall be reborn, yeah. Mm. Luigi: Exactly. So I think those those lyrics perfectly match both the gifts Lynn: Yeah. Luigi: of the Nine of Pentacles but also the the teachings, the wisdom and the learning of the Nine of Pentacles. Lynn: It's a cycle, yeah, and we w we humans at least especially modern humans, they're very fond of holding on to things. And Luigi: Mm. Lynn: the fact that in the Nine of Pentacles, at least in a smith, we see a a woman at the top of her holding on to everything and having everything. But we know that if you cannot hold on too long and you have to let go, and you know, in in the cycle, there will be A reckoning if you do not. So the thorns, yeah. Amelie: I guess if you hold on to the thorns too much, then you stop bleeding and it's going to be painful. But also Lynn: You Yeah. Yeah. Amelie: what the thorns tell me in in this in this plant or this branch of roses is that whoever planted it there and whoever took care of it was doing a very good job because it just makes it look very strong, healthy, and sturdy. Lynn: Mm. Amelie: So I don't necessarily just see the thorns as something super painful, it also to me indicates that, yeah, whoever was tending Luigi: Medication. Amelie: to yes dedication and they Lynn: Yeah. Mm. Amelie: knew what they were doing, the Virgo, you know, this precise, you know, exactly what they were doing. Lynn: Yeah. But it also yeah, but it also indicates HEAL: Mm. Lynn: it also indicates that whoever planted them wasn't afraid of getting their hands pricked and and sacrificing part of themselves for the sake of growing this plant, right? 'Cause you wouldn't be able to have such strong and thorny roses if you weren't like actually also, you know, putting your hand on them and helping them grow. So the the willingness for sacrifice, I think comes also out in the fact that it's not an easy little plant, it's a rose bush. It's something that that will hurt you. Amelie: Absolutely, and you know HEAL: That maybe Amelie: why why this Virgo did such a great job? Because he did it for love. He knew that women love roses and the better and more beautiful they are, Venus is going Lynn: Ha ha ha ha Amelie: to just Lynn: I I was gonna say because the Virg was a masochist, but okay, I guess we can take that. Luigi: I will do anything for Amelie: Or they're just or they're just trying to impress, Luigi: love. Amelie: you know. But we were talking about this, in the last episode, how Virga is showing love that they're trying to make you better stuff. This is a this is another way of showing love, not just with a rose, because roses are pretty, is because it's the perfect rose, because it's grown perfectly. It had the, you know. perfect way, they handled it the perfect way. So it's maybe not to impress with the actual rose, it's impressed with the way they tended to it. Lynn: So today's soundtrack HEAL: To mi. Lynn: so at some point we had like to be talking music and right now the the kissed by a rose is a seal, Amelie: Mm-hmm. Lynn: I think. that's coming up too in my head. That's that's today's I think. Amelie: Yeah. HEAL: To me, it made me think as well about the angels. The according to the Amelie: Mm-hmm. HEAL: Golden Dawn tradition, you know, for this decan the first part of the decan is Hazael, that's angel number nine, and Aladaya, that's angel ten. But I but this is according to the Golden Dawn. So I will respect that. It's not the chef Hameforage. Amelie: The hermetic is the same, I have a feeling. Lynn: It's it's the same. Amelie: Mm-hmm. Lynn: They agree for once. HEAL: It's not the chem half a porash, but the the the chem hafepurash have Aladaya and the for Tauros. So when Luigi was talking about Tauros I was thinking mm okay, that is probably the connection through the angels. So it has a yell has a beautiful message that because the attributes for this angel is mercy and forgiveness and reconciliation and release. And overcoming difficulties. So that that's what made me feel, you know, what you were talking about the the rose and what half you gain can become freedom rather than an attachment. That is what is the basic meaning of this angel. And Aladaya, that's angel number ten, is healing and restoration and grace and correcting mistakes. So there is that connectation of With the the flower and the thorns as well. So Virgo is correction and refinement, restoration. And the message from the angels is that not everything has to be perfect before it can be valuable. And something acquired value through being repaired and restore. So Hasijael is release and reconciliation, and Aladaya restoration and healing. So the true abundance in The ability to release but no longer serves and restore what is genuinely valuable. So that is the message of the angel. So I think that is the correlation of the emotion that he gives the thor with the flowers that you have to forgive, you have to restore, you have to heal, you have to again that balance between Venus and Virgo, you know, but is the equilibrium between. not to be too perfectionist but as well enjoying and appreciate the beauty in things that they are not perfect. Luigi: So might it be. Lynn: Yeah. So what it'd be. Show us the Golden Dawn one. Yes. Amelie: As we were talking about the Golden Dawn, I can just quickly I think we said most most of the things, but that what Lynn: Yeah. Mm. Amelie: I really liked about this card particularly is the roses that are there, but then there's more rosebuds coming out from the this is something that I find is unique specifically to that card. Is that Lynn: Yeah, yeah. Luigi: And it's interesting because you I mean I'm hopefully I'm counting them correctly, but I think you got nine that are kind of you know opening up, isn't it? And then you got two buds, if I'm Lynn: Yeah. Hmm. Luigi: seeing correctly. Because you know that my vision sometimes is questionable. Amelie: No, you see it correctly. Luigi: so that's interesting because if you add nine and two you get the number eleven, which what does it correspond to? The justice, the Libra, whose color is green and whose season will succeed. Soon after the Ten of Pentacles or Discs, HEAL: Mm-hmm. Luigi: you will soon succeed. Venus Lynn: And who rules Libra? Venus. HEAL: Yeah. Amelie: Mm-hmm. Luigi: The maiden of green, Lynn: Mm. Luigi: the maiden of earth. Amelie: And also there is see there's the little green, it's sprouting even higher up. HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: Yeah. Amelie: Which makes me think of the soft thoth deck again from the from the top, Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The sprouting. Amelie: because it's like sp sprouting out. Lynn: But for once we don't have a green hand. Now we're having a white hand. And then we can Luigi: And I'm also noticing the Lynn: be we can wonder well Amelie: Yes. Lynn: it's because the background is already green, so the artist didn't want to make the angel hand green in this one. But there might be it's probably a different symbolism. Luigi: Both in the Golden Dawn and Thoth you have the black background, isn't it? definitely probably a Saturnian slash yes. Very fertile as well. Lynn: Mm yeah. Very Saturnian, yeah. Saturnian earthy. Mmm mmm. Amelie: Yeah, it just says angelic hand. It doesn't say anything specifically about the the actual colour of the hand. Lynn: Yeah. Luigi: Well if you got like opposing no opposing, like you know, balancing colours, you know, with the back with the black background, then the balancing colour will naturally be white with it within the hand, within the roses. Amelie: Yes, yes. Luigi: Yeah, lots to reflect on on on this beautiful card. Lynn: Any last words? Amelie: It's a card that we all like. Luigi: The only last word that I have is the and it's this is returning back to this myth. but you know how we talked about in Faramount about this the hawk and the snail. so both of them in their own right, you can attribute to them independence, isn't it? like the snail carries their own burden, their own home, their own world on their back as they travel, and the hawk once released like a hunting a bird of prey, you know, a hunting bird again, no and and there is a lot of messages related to independence with this card and I think it's HEAL: Yeah, Luigi: beautiful because independence is the virtue of Yesod so I think that's also HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: potentially that's also depicted through the symbolism of the animals in this card amongst other elements elements of the card itself. Lynn: It's also interesting how they're on two different spectrums of speed because the hawk is one of the fastest Luigi: Uh-huh. Lynn: animals. HEAL: Yes. Lynn: and it's also very it's it's not bound, it's very s although it's kind of bound because it's a tame hawk, but it can soar freely. And the slug Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: is or the s the the snail, not the slu the snail is very earthbound and it is one of the slowest creatures on this planet. So it's and then somewhere in the middle you have the human being. Amelie: It also doesn't have eyes right. Snails don't have eyes while hawks have extremely good Yeah, 'cause they have have feelers, but they don't have Lynn: they do on their little feelers. Like they can kind of I think they see there's like eyes on top. HEAL: Yes. Amelie: they don't have like Luigi: Eyeballs. Amelie: eyeballs. They they s Lynn: Yeah, not like this, no. Amelie: they feel more than they see, whilst the hawk has a very good sight. Lynn: Well, HEAL: It represent two different perspectives, isn't it? So Amelie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Luigi: Yeah, like to they have HEAL: it's yes. Luigi: to rely on different senses, I suppose. like like all of us need to learn to do us you know. HEAL: You can ha you can have control Amelie: Yeah. HEAL: in in all the perspective and all the aspects of your life and you know, being a snail or being a a hawk, you you have someone who is controlling you anyway. Luigi: Totally, but it definitely suggests that to obtain grey harvest and gain, you know, the title or material gain, the title of the card, you need the support of earth and heaven or earth and sky or HEAL: Yes. Luigi: earth and ether, you know. I see I see that's another HEAL: Yes. Luigi: way to connect to the symbolism of a HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: hawk that reaches the skies and it's vision that HEAL: Yeah. Luigi: like Amelie, the vision that you were pointing at from above from from high above. versus the snail, the vision from below, from the underworld, or from really generally the surface of the earth, I suppose. Lynn: And if you're very if you're daring to go there then we can probably also connect the snail to Saturnian energies, being quite bound to the earth and to its home. Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: and the hawk b maybe more Venusian because beauty f connected with the nobility and beauty and the aesthetics of a flying a flying bird of prey, HEAL: Mm. Lynn: there is there's very little that is more beautiful than that, maybe. I mean everything in nature can be beautiful, but I think that's a very beautiful sight, a soaring hawk. So yeah. Also yeah Luigi: Hawk is also a magical animal of Keta, so it's interesting that it's here in this card as well. Lynn: And I mean connected to Apollo, the sun god as well. Luigi: Mm-hmm. And without getting people Lynn: He's he's a sir. Luigi: lost in the Kabbalistic tradition, but we know that the we we'll cover it better when we cover the hermit, but we know that it represents through the Hebrew alphabet the hand, and the hand, the yod is con connects wisdom to crown, connects Hokma to Keter. so I guess it's interesting that you have the Virgo HEAL: Okay. Luigi: card with the hermit attached to it, with the hawk possibly connecting to Apollo and die for the sun and we did see the six owned or touched upon pentacles but also maybe there's there's always gonna be a connection between Kether and the rest of the universe. But you have the Lynn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Luigi: Cronian HEAL: Mm. Luigi: crown energy connection over there is going on in the background. Lynn: Thank you so much for joining tonight guys. it's been an Luigi: Thank you. Lynn: enriching and fun episode. literally about the riches of the earth. we'll wish you a week Amelie: We definitely gain some insights today. Lynn: we game. Ha ha ha. Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: well comment, subscribe, like. if you want you can buy us a coffee and HEAL: Yes. Lynn: Catch us again next round when we're covering the ten of discs. Good night. HEAL: Good night. Amelie: Good night. Luigi: Bye. Amelie: Hi.