Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #144 Jason Flom with Ronnie Long

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#144 Jason Flom with Ronnie Long · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: At around nine forty five. On the night of April
0:05
Speaker 1: twenty fifth, nineteen seventy six, the fifty four year old
0:08
Speaker 1: widow of a Cannon Mills executive was at her home
0:10
Speaker 1: and Conquered, North Carolina when a man grabbed her from behind.
0:15
Speaker 1: She fought him, scratching her attacker so hard that her
0:18
Speaker 1: nails bent backwards, but ultimately he overpowered and raped her.
0:23
Speaker 1: She described her assailant as a light skinned black man
0:26
Speaker 1: with no mention of facial hair, wearing a dark leather
0:29
Speaker 1: coat and a beanie hat. A rape kit was done
0:33
Speaker 1: and the police carefully collected a mountain of forensic evidence. Meanwhile,
0:38
Speaker 1: across town, nineteen year old Ronnie Long was at home
0:41
Speaker 1: with his mother, on the phone with the mother of
0:43
Speaker 1: his own two year old son till ten PM. A
0:47
Speaker 1: few days later, Ronnie received a court summons for trespassing
0:50
Speaker 1: in a park after hours. He was wearing a dark
0:53
Speaker 1: leather coat at the time. Police would ask the rape
0:56
Speaker 1: victim to be present in court to see if her
0:59
Speaker 1: attacker was pres and on the day Ronnie, the owner
1:02
Speaker 1: of a dark leather coat, was scheduled to appear disguised.
1:07
Speaker 1: She sat in the gallery for two hours in Ronnie's presence,
1:10
Speaker 1: only to identify him as her attacker when his name
1:13
Speaker 1: was called. The state would present a case without any
1:17
Speaker 1: of the collected forensic or biological evidence, solely resting their
1:22
Speaker 1: case upon this extremely unorthodox and totally unreliable cross racial
1:27
Speaker 1: identification and Ronnie's unscratched leather coat. For that, Ronnie has
1:33
Speaker 1: been in prison for forty four years. This is wrongful
1:38
Speaker 1: conviction with Jason Flamma. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's
1:55
Speaker 1: case Will It's going to upset you. I'm going to
2:01
Speaker 1: tell you right now this is a grotesque injustice that
2:04
Speaker 1: was inflicted and is still being inflicted on an amazing
2:08
Speaker 1: man named Ronnie Long. And we're hoping to hear from
2:12
Speaker 1: Ronnie during the recording. He'll be calling in from prison
2:16
Speaker 1: where he has been since nineteen seventy six for a
2:22
Speaker 1: crime he didn't commit. In this time of COVID, there's
2:25
Speaker 1: all sorts of complications, so we're going to try to
2:28
Speaker 1: make it work with us now as well is Jamie Lao.
2:34
Speaker 1: Jamie is an attorney at Duke University's Wrongful Convictions Clinic,
2:39
Speaker 1: and Jamie, thank you for joining us on the show.
2:42
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
2:43
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something unusual here. I actually want
2:46
Speaker 1: to start at the end. We almost never do that.
2:49
Speaker 1: But there's a quote from a judge named James Wynn,
2:53
Speaker 1: who's a circuit court judge in the fourth District Court.
2:58
Speaker 1: So this is a serious guy and judge when said,
3:04
Speaker 1: and I quote, prosecutors clearly had evidence that any defense
3:09
Speaker 1: council in the world, not only in nineteen seventy six,
3:13
Speaker 1: but in the history of this country would have wanted
3:17
Speaker 1: or needed, and which should have been supplied, and yet
3:22
Speaker 1: we did not provide it. He goes on to say,
3:26
Speaker 1: what is it about us that we want to prosecute
3:30
Speaker 1: and keep people in jail when we know evidence may
3:33
Speaker 1: exist that might lead to a different conclusion. Why is
3:38
Speaker 1: that so offensive to us now that we want to
3:41
Speaker 1: protect illegal activity from forty four years ago? What's the
3:46
Speaker 1: harm of looking at the new evidence? He said? When
3:50
Speaker 1: did justice leave the process? So we let our rules
3:54
Speaker 1: blind us to what we all can see? Wow?
4:00
Speaker 2: Oh, well, during the course of argument it made us
4:05
Speaker 2: optimistic that after forty four years, an end may be
4:09
Speaker 2: near to the injustice that occurred in Ronnie's case. It's
4:14
Speaker 2: been an incredible difficult journey through the courts to get
4:19
Speaker 2: his case to where it was. On May seventh of
4:22
Speaker 2: this year, you said we'll start at the end, and
4:24
Speaker 2: the end at this point in time was an argument
4:27
Speaker 2: on May seventh in front of the full Fourth Circuit
4:30
Speaker 2: Court of Appeals, which is fifteen active judges, all have
4:34
Speaker 2: been appointed by a President. Judge Winn was making that
4:40
Speaker 2: quote in response to arguments from the State of North
4:43
Speaker 2: Carolina that more or less was asking the court to
4:47
Speaker 2: disregard all the evidence that is now known about in
4:50
Speaker 2: this case that was hid from Rani at the time
4:54
Speaker 2: of his trial in nineteen seventy six. And Judge Winn
4:57
Speaker 2: also discussed sort of the circumstances of nineteen seventy six
5:01
Speaker 2: and the conditions of black mails, particularly in the South
5:05
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six, and how they were wrongfully convicted
5:09
Speaker 2: in great numbers. So at the moment Judge Wynn offered
5:13
Speaker 2: his viewpoints during the course of the stakes argument, we
5:18
Speaker 2: knew that we had succeeded in conveying to the court
5:23
Speaker 2: the seriousness and the magnitude of the injustice that occurred
5:27
Speaker 2: in Ronnie's case.
5:29
Speaker 1: As promised, we got a phone call from Ronnie and
5:31
Speaker 1: I must warn you that there was a poor connection
5:33
Speaker 1: with the prison, so ry's a little hard to hear.
5:35
Speaker 1: But what he has to say needs to be heard,
5:38
Speaker 1: so please bear with us.
5:42
Speaker 3: You have a prepaid call. You will not be charged
5:45
Speaker 3: for this call. This call is from an inmate aunt
5:49
Speaker 3: Albemarle Correctional Institution. This call will be monitored and recorded.
5:54
Speaker 3: To accept this call, prins stive now to decline this call.
5:57
Speaker 4: Hang on.
5:59
Speaker 3: Thank you for you think Globe Tail link.
6:01
Speaker 1: Hello, Hi Ronnie, thanks for calling me. I know we
6:04
Speaker 1: have limited time, so let's get right into it. Now.
6:07
Speaker 1: You grew up and conquered North Carolina, right, seven brothers
6:11
Speaker 1: and sisters. Can you tell me a little bit about
6:13
Speaker 1: your life before all of this horrible stuff happened.
6:17
Speaker 4: I paid sports when I was in high school, right
6:19
Speaker 4: waiting to come forward. See, I learned how to link
6:22
Speaker 4: with such song. That's kind of little work I was
6:25
Speaker 4: doing with my dad. I would go to work with
6:27
Speaker 4: him sometime, take money with him. I had a son.
6:30
Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time with my son to
6:36
Speaker 4: cool in the game the game when I got the
6:40
Speaker 4: street with three.
6:42
Speaker 1: Now I read about this one time before you had
6:44
Speaker 1: your son, way before the incident that landed you in prison.
6:47
Speaker 1: There was an encounter that you once had with some
6:49
Speaker 1: police officers. They pulled up on you, harassed you a bit, Hey,
6:53
Speaker 1: you know what you're doing around here? Boy type of thing,
6:56
Speaker 1: and you responded, isn't this America all right? I have
6:59
Speaker 1: free to walk on this sidewalk? That right.
7:02
Speaker 4: I was coming from a girl hell, I was coming
7:04
Speaker 4: from a girl out one night. The area that I
7:07
Speaker 4: was in he was going to listen like area, So
7:12
Speaker 4: I'm coming home one night? The two white couple up
7:15
Speaker 4: behind me that the other were you coming from? What
7:19
Speaker 4: are you doing in this area here? Pat? Did you
7:23
Speaker 4: walk home here? They took me, trust me to be
7:27
Speaker 4: downtown for me in a room, I stated, gave up
7:31
Speaker 4: too loud, but also gave up, told me too, you
7:34
Speaker 4: can leave. I just gotta walk up, went.
7:37
Speaker 1: Home, And that's it seems to be how he got
7:42
Speaker 1: to be on the radar of the local authorities. And
7:46
Speaker 1: then on the Faithful Day of Sunday, April twenty fifth,
7:50
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, at around nine forty five pm, a
7:55
Speaker 1: wealthy white, fifty four year old widow of a Canon
7:58
Speaker 1: Mills executive was burged and raped an awful, awful crime,
8:03
Speaker 1: and Canon Mills was a major employer in the area,
8:06
Speaker 1: and that name's going to come to play a big
8:08
Speaker 1: role in this story. The victim said that while she
8:12
Speaker 1: was preparing food for a beach trip the following day,
8:16
Speaker 1: a black man snuck into her home and grabbed her
8:19
Speaker 1: from behind. She said the intruder told her that he
8:21
Speaker 1: only had fifteen minutes as his friends were waiting for
8:24
Speaker 1: him outside like a horror movie, and he proceeded to
8:27
Speaker 1: rape her. She later described her attacker as quote yellow
8:30
Speaker 1: looking and quote again not blue black, maybe wearing gloves,
8:35
Speaker 1: a beanie hat, no mention of any facial hair, and
8:37
Speaker 1: a dark leather coat. She also described the violent struggle
8:41
Speaker 1: where she scratched her attacker so hard that her fingernails
8:44
Speaker 1: bent backward, which would definitely have left the mark on
8:47
Speaker 1: that leather coat. The victim said that whenever she tried
8:51
Speaker 1: to move, he would slam her head against the ground.
8:53
Speaker 1: Then the phone rang, startling the attacker, who gathered his
8:57
Speaker 1: things and left through the front door. Victim then rushed
9:00
Speaker 1: over to her neighbors naked, where she was able to
9:04
Speaker 1: call the police, and they arrived around ten pm. The
9:08
Speaker 1: victim has since passed away. But that being said, she
9:13
Speaker 1: was rushed to the hospital for a rape kit, and
9:15
Speaker 1: the doctor performed all the tests and collected all the
9:18
Speaker 1: biological evidence and everything else. What happened next is that
9:24
Speaker 1: Detective Eisenhower of the Concord Police Department arrived at the
9:29
Speaker 1: victim's home around ten thirty. He photographed the house and
9:33
Speaker 1: began collecting evidence, including latent fingerprints, carpet samples, suspect hair
9:38
Speaker 1: paint samples, as well as pieces of the victim's clothing
9:42
Speaker 1: and partially burned matches, and he later brought them to
9:45
Speaker 1: the State Bureau of Investigation office at Raleigh for examination.
9:49
Speaker 1: He also lifted a latent shoe print from a column
9:53
Speaker 1: near the porch. Now this is important later as nothing
9:57
Speaker 1: but the shoe print was ever the discussed at trial.
10:01
Speaker 1: And before we go any further, we need to state
10:04
Speaker 1: clearly that Ronnie had a solid alibi, and remember the
10:08
Speaker 1: crime took place at nine five. Ronnie, at around nine thirty,
10:12
Speaker 1: you were at home with your mother, waiting on your
10:14
Speaker 1: father to get back with the car so you could
10:16
Speaker 1: head out to a party in Charlotte. You were on
10:19
Speaker 1: the phone with the mother of your child. Your mom
10:22
Speaker 1: hopped on the phone a few times to say hello
10:24
Speaker 1: to her grandson.
10:25
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, he on the.
10:27
Speaker 4: Phone too, but you can't all we understand what he
10:29
Speaker 4: say when he was trying to talk. He on the
10:32
Speaker 4: phone to my mom was on the phone, on the phone.
10:36
Speaker 4: I'm up on the phone and I'm waiting on my
10:40
Speaker 4: dad to come back with the card. Hey, I got
10:44
Speaker 4: that call o'clock one on to a party and shower.
10:49
Speaker 1: So Jamie, can you take us back to how Ronnie
10:52
Speaker 1: came to be implicated in it and how he could
10:55
Speaker 1: have possibly been convicted in spite of no evidence of
11:00
Speaker 1: none zero.
11:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ronnie, very much like other young black men in
11:06
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six and still today, was harassed by law
11:09
Speaker 2: enforcement officers. That harassment directly led to what ultimately becomes
11:15
Speaker 2: this forty four year old wrongful conviction. On April twenty fifth,
11:19
Speaker 2: the victim is assaulted and raped in her home. A
11:23
Speaker 2: few days after that, Ronnie receives a trespassing charge at
11:27
Speaker 2: the local park that was adjacent to his home when
11:30
Speaker 2: he shouldn't have been there, and during that time it
11:33
Speaker 2: appears that he was observed wearing a black leather coat.
11:36
Speaker 2: The officer who stopped him. Recalled that the person who
11:41
Speaker 2: was described by the victim had been wearing a dark
11:44
Speaker 2: leather coat on the night of April twenty fifth when
11:46
Speaker 2: she gave a description to law enforcement, and despite Ronnie
11:51
Speaker 2: not matching other very prominent features that were included in
11:55
Speaker 2: her description, the officer decided that perhaps he was the
11:58
Speaker 2: individual who had assault at the victim. I mean it
12:01
Speaker 2: was significant the disparities between her description of her assailant
12:05
Speaker 2: and Ronnie. She described her assailant as a yellow black male.
12:11
Speaker 2: In the South at the time, to describe somebody as
12:13
Speaker 2: a yellow black male meant a light skinned black person
12:17
Speaker 2: of mixed origin. She never mentioned her assailant having facial hair.
12:22
Speaker 2: Ronnie had facial hair, and disputed that he had facial
12:26
Speaker 2: hair on April twenty fifth, nineteen seventy six, when she
12:29
Speaker 2: was assaulted. So despite him having a different complexion having
12:33
Speaker 2: facial hair, where she never described facial hair, he becomes
12:37
Speaker 2: a suspect. Officers then go to her home and says,
12:41
Speaker 2: we have reason to believe that the individual who had
12:45
Speaker 2: assaulted you will be in the courtroom on this date
12:49
Speaker 2: fifteen days later, May tenth, nineteen seventy six, and we'd
12:53
Speaker 2: like you to come down to the courtroom to see
12:55
Speaker 2: if you can identify the person who attacked you there.
12:58
Speaker 2: So immediately in her mind she thinks they've done some
13:01
Speaker 2: investigation and have identified a likely suspect. But all they
13:06
Speaker 2: had done is made the connect to the fact that
13:09
Speaker 2: Ronnie had a black leather coat, similar to what she described.
13:13
Speaker 2: The real curious thing with respect to law enforcement asking
13:18
Speaker 2: the victim to go to the courthouse to try and
13:20
Speaker 2: make an identification is they had a picture of long
13:23
Speaker 2: that they could have shown her when they went to
13:25
Speaker 2: her and asked her to come to the courthouse, and
13:27
Speaker 2: they could have did it in a fair procedure, or
13:30
Speaker 2: as fair as these identification procedures can be, with the
13:34
Speaker 2: inclusion of fillers to ensure that she's selecting him from
13:38
Speaker 2: memory and not because he looks most like the attacker
13:42
Speaker 2: or because she's being presented a suspect in a very
13:44
Speaker 2: suggestive way. They elected to forego that. So she's brought
13:49
Speaker 2: to the courthouse dressed in a disguise because she's fearful
13:54
Speaker 2: that if her attacker was there, he'd recognize her. She
13:57
Speaker 2: describes during her testimony being terrify. She sits in the
14:01
Speaker 2: courtroom for an hour and a half Inglong's presence and
14:07
Speaker 2: fails to identify him. And only when his name is
14:11
Speaker 2: called and he walks up to resolve the trespassing charge,
14:14
Speaker 2: which was dismissed that day, did she say he's the one.
14:19
Speaker 2: But it's telling because we later learned during her testimony
14:22
Speaker 2: at trial that there were only twelve black males in
14:25
Speaker 2: the courtroom. She quickly eliminated several of them because they
14:29
Speaker 2: had afros where they were older. She described one as
14:32
Speaker 2: being old and hunched over, and she says that he
14:35
Speaker 2: was the only one that looked remotely similar to her attacker.
14:39
Speaker 2: And identification evidence is already flawed and highly unreliable, but
14:45
Speaker 2: here you can just take her words that she's just
14:48
Speaker 2: picking the person that's most likely to be her attacker
14:51
Speaker 2: that's present in the courtroom so she can end the
14:53
Speaker 2: experience where she's traumatized and terrified, so that in essence
14:59
Speaker 2: becomes the only in Singing so Long. And here we are,
15:01
Speaker 2: forty four years later, trying to undo that identification.
15:05
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you brought that up, Jamie, because we
15:08
Speaker 1: know the most unreliable eyewitness identification is cross racial. This
15:13
Speaker 1: fits exactly into that category, and then, of course there's
15:18
Speaker 1: still room for it to get worse. So Ronnie, take
15:22
Speaker 1: us back to the day that you were in court
15:24
Speaker 1: for the misdemeanor trespassing charge, when you had no idea.
15:28
Speaker 1: You couldn't have had any idea that there was a
15:30
Speaker 1: rape victim in the gallery who was being led to
15:33
Speaker 1: believe that her attacker was in the courtroom that day.
15:37
Speaker 1: And the craziest thing is that you two were in
15:39
Speaker 1: each other's presence for nearly two hours before she idd you.
15:44
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, they had a misdemeanor, just passed the child.
15:48
Speaker 4: So I go downtown o'clock when you call my name,
15:54
Speaker 4: I strewed up with walk in my day. This is
15:57
Speaker 4: when the police say. This is when they say that
16:00
Speaker 4: she ide me. The same two detectives that was on
16:03
Speaker 4: this case, that been on this tape the whole time
16:04
Speaker 4: they were sitting in the jury Fox, she testified that
16:08
Speaker 4: it was it got me twelve black in the court room.
16:15
Speaker 4: He's none of these people in here looking like me.
16:17
Speaker 4: She's supposed to be looking far a young black man
16:21
Speaker 4: that assaulted her, But she distinctly stated that she's looked
16:25
Speaker 4: around and looked around and looked around into the trans
16:27
Speaker 4: trip and I didn't see nobody. I want you to
16:32
Speaker 4: hold you can think about this. She said. She sitting
16:34
Speaker 4: in the courtroom man for over an hour and a
16:35
Speaker 4: half looking around, and she never didn't see anyone. The people.
16:38
Speaker 4: Why she didn't see anyone else said because of the
16:41
Speaker 4: description that she gave the police for the light skinned
16:44
Speaker 4: black man with no hand on his face. I'm sitting
16:50
Speaker 4: up in there and you understanding saying God's skin, it
16:52
Speaker 4: would hang on my favor. So I didn't match another
16:54
Speaker 4: the description your nouner said that she was looking for.
16:57
Speaker 4: That's why come she couldn't pick me out. You pick
17:00
Speaker 4: me out here stairs when they called my name, Run
17:02
Speaker 4: along to the front, run along if you court, I said, yeah,
17:06
Speaker 4: we've come down front. That's what she says. She recognized.
17:09
Speaker 4: She ain't recognized me. She's reping down my name. You go,
17:12
Speaker 4: number one, How are you gonna sit in the courtroom
17:14
Speaker 4: stairs a whole hour and a half. They were eleven
17:16
Speaker 4: ain't but twelve blacks in there. You gonna sit in
17:19
Speaker 4: there for a whole hour and a half and you
17:20
Speaker 4: don't see this young black man that you're looking for.
17:22
Speaker 4: The reason you don't see it because She's like, yeah,
17:25
Speaker 4: he got he got head on his face. The court
17:29
Speaker 4: asked this woman, could the police department that I told
17:33
Speaker 4: you to pick run alone? She said they could, Hell,
17:38
Speaker 4: I don't know. That's in the trench. They could, Hell,
17:45
Speaker 4: I don't know.
17:57
Speaker 1: So the victim makes this shaky identification, tells the detectives.
18:01
Speaker 1: But you've got no idea that any of this is
18:04
Speaker 1: going on. You're there for this misdemeanor charge, which gets dismissed,
18:08
Speaker 1: and then you go home. But that was not the
18:11
Speaker 1: last you'd see of law enforcement that day.
18:14
Speaker 4: I walkeroom, went home with the sleep I'll wake up
18:20
Speaker 4: two hours later, my mom jelly. Police back down in
18:23
Speaker 4: the morning.
18:25
Speaker 1: When Ronnie was picked up, he was not told that
18:29
Speaker 1: he was suspected of this raid. Instead, he arrived at
18:34
Speaker 1: the station at six forty five pm, was read his rights,
18:37
Speaker 1: and the police claimed that they asked permission to search
18:40
Speaker 1: his car, but they hadn't, and then they testified to
18:44
Speaker 1: finding gloves, matchbooks, and a beanie in the car. Ronnie
18:49
Speaker 1: maintains that the gloves were his, but the beanie was not.
18:53
Speaker 4: Ill follow the police downtown. I used to drive with glos,
18:58
Speaker 4: so when I get out of Connie with all speak
19:01
Speaker 4: of my phone, my sun Valley. I get out the car,
19:04
Speaker 4: I locked the door. I got on the black of
19:07
Speaker 4: the other jacket. Yeah, I'm going there. They killed me.
19:11
Speaker 4: I'm on suspecting of raping VERTI I'll take my keys up.
19:15
Speaker 4: They picked my keys up the front out of the
19:16
Speaker 4: door with me, the train two, the ticket that was
19:19
Speaker 4: in the courtroom that morning. Yo, man, without going with
19:22
Speaker 4: my keys, bring my keys back hill. They're just going
19:25
Speaker 4: to look in your car. You ain't got nothing to
19:27
Speaker 4: hat now, But yuh ain't gave you permission to look
19:29
Speaker 4: at my car either. So they go down look at
19:32
Speaker 4: my car. They come back to me and they got mama.
19:35
Speaker 4: She took my other jacket off of me. Ys mack.
19:39
Speaker 4: It's a mother or stuff. They had my glove, they
19:43
Speaker 4: had lime green to bargain that I had never seen
19:46
Speaker 4: a dead in my life.
19:48
Speaker 1: And for anyone who doesn't know it's a boggin, I
19:50
Speaker 1: didn't know it's a boggan is a hat like the
19:52
Speaker 1: one described by the victim in this case. So the
19:54
Speaker 1: police come back with what they claim to have found
19:57
Speaker 1: in your car. Go ahead, Ronnie, they said.
20:00
Speaker 4: If you got just got your car, if you won't
20:03
Speaker 4: beat hide them back when we take complete our investigations,
20:06
Speaker 4: sign your name my hands. You gotta looks on the
20:09
Speaker 4: people for me to sign. And they said, sign your
20:11
Speaker 4: name my hand if you won't beat behind them. Okay,
20:13
Speaker 4: I know. I want my jacket back. Want I don't
20:16
Speaker 4: want my glove. I don't know who it is, but
20:18
Speaker 4: I don't know. I want my jacket and glove. So
20:20
Speaker 4: I signed the people come to find out as a
20:25
Speaker 4: consent for the search for cor.
20:30
Speaker 1: So they tricked you in order to make it seem
20:33
Speaker 1: like you consented, and that way it would have made
20:35
Speaker 1: the search technically legal. They planted the lime green patter toboggan.
20:42
Speaker 4: Now the police gotta line to eat the bog in
20:45
Speaker 4: big court, saying that this is to happen, that the perpetrator.
20:49
Speaker 4: I'm telling my lug and then I don't go mad
20:51
Speaker 4: that to you, man, I ain't ever heard of that.
20:53
Speaker 4: That that ain't gonna head. My log is put the
20:56
Speaker 4: inside out. It's really is looking at it. Really you
21:01
Speaker 4: got a line when I had it, I got black.
21:12
Speaker 4: It's man an, Yeah, I don't know what's the state
21:18
Speaker 4: would never let me be, I won't they did.
21:24
Speaker 1: So we now come to the conclusion that the police
21:29
Speaker 1: planted this beanie in the car so that they could
21:33
Speaker 1: have another you know, well really another there is no
21:38
Speaker 1: other evidence, so that they could have something that they
21:42
Speaker 1: could use against him. And I say something they could
21:46
Speaker 1: use against him, because remember all that evidence Detective Eisenhower
21:50
Speaker 1: collected from the crime scene. Well, if the red hair
21:52
Speaker 1: is that they found in the beanie, that are clearly
21:55
Speaker 1: not Ronnie's hair. Bother you just wait because it's about
21:59
Speaker 1: to get way worse again. The crime scene evidence comes
22:03
Speaker 1: back from the statepue of Investigation in Raleigh, and none
22:06
Speaker 1: of it matches Ronnie. But since the rich white widow
22:09
Speaker 1: of an executive of one of the biggest employers in
22:11
Speaker 1: town just idd him as her rapist rather than just
22:15
Speaker 1: doing the right thing, the just thing, the evidence never
22:20
Speaker 1: even made it to the prosecutor's office, let alone the defense.
22:24
Speaker 1: So the police withheld the evidence from both the defense
22:29
Speaker 1: and the prosecution. Let me just repeat that the police
22:34
Speaker 1: withheld the evidence not just from the defense, but from
22:37
Speaker 1: the prosecution, just in case the prosecution might have decided, hey,
22:41
Speaker 1: wait a minute, we got the wrong guy. That the
22:43
Speaker 1: police decided to play judge jury, and I mean they
22:47
Speaker 1: might as well played executioner because poor Ronnie's been in
22:49
Speaker 1: prison for forty four fucking years. I mean, this is yeah.
22:55
Speaker 1: I mean, just when I think I've heard it all,
23:00
Speaker 1: and Jamie, you're living this day in and day out. Now,
23:02
Speaker 1: I mean, what can you add to that? Because it
23:04
Speaker 1: gets worse from there?
23:05
Speaker 2: Right, So, they not only tested this evidence and it
23:09
Speaker 2: didn't match long. When it didn't match Long, they made
23:12
Speaker 2: the decision that they wouldn't turn it over to the
23:15
Speaker 2: defense or the prosecution, which we contending. We argued this
23:20
Speaker 2: at the May seventh hearing that we had in this case,
23:23
Speaker 2: that there's a possibility that the prosecutor could have decided
23:28
Speaker 2: not to go forward with this case at all had
23:30
Speaker 2: he known that all the forensic test results pointed away
23:33
Speaker 2: from Ronnie and towards another suspect. There was suspect hair
23:36
Speaker 2: collected brought to Raleigh, examined by the crime lab, determined
23:41
Speaker 2: by the crime lab to be, in the parlance of
23:43
Speaker 2: the lab report of Negroid or Mongolian origin, meaning that
23:48
Speaker 2: it came from a person who was either Asian or black.
23:53
Speaker 2: And we know that that hair that was collected that
23:55
Speaker 2: was suspect hair didn't match Long. If it didn't match Long,
24:00
Speaker 2: then the suspect, the person who should have been incarcerated
24:03
Speaker 2: for forty four years. There's the evidence of who that
24:06
Speaker 2: person's identity is. And it's remarkable in the fact that
24:11
Speaker 2: they believe this would be probative. They collected because they
24:15
Speaker 2: thought it would be probative. All indications are that it
24:18
Speaker 2: did come from the suspect, but when it didn't match Long,
24:21
Speaker 2: they kept it from everybody, so the prosecutor would go
24:24
Speaker 2: forward on the basis of this completely unheard of identification procedure.
24:29
Speaker 2: And I have to tell you, Jason, I'm very skeptical
24:33
Speaker 2: whenever any client offers a suggestion that evidence may be planted.
24:39
Speaker 2: But as you look at this case and what officers
24:42
Speaker 2: did keeping evidence away from the prosecutor, it really makes
24:48
Speaker 2: you stop and say, oh, my goodness, this is completely
24:52
Speaker 2: consistent with the behaviors of the officers in this case.
24:56
Speaker 2: And then when Long says those are my gloves. But
24:59
Speaker 2: I've never seeing that beanie in my life, you think,
25:02
Speaker 2: why would he acknowledge owning one but not the other.
25:06
Speaker 2: And the only explanation is because the officers in this
25:08
Speaker 2: case set out to ensure Long was convicted that included lying, hiding,
25:17
Speaker 2: and with the beanie manufacturing evidence to ensure that he
25:21
Speaker 2: would spend the rest of his life incarcerating convicted for
25:25
Speaker 2: this crime, and for whatever reason, the State of North
25:29
Speaker 2: Carolina is just willing to ignore that altogether and continue
25:33
Speaker 2: to argue that Long is guilty of this crime.
25:35
Speaker 1: It's crazy, right, And there's no evidence that he ever
25:39
Speaker 1: owned a beanie. There's no photographs of him and a beanie.
25:42
Speaker 1: There's no nobody knew about any beanie. There's also the
25:44
Speaker 1: fact that the victim had fought her attacker with all
25:49
Speaker 1: of her strength, and she had scratched the attacker so
25:53
Speaker 1: hard that her own nails bent back.
25:56
Speaker 4: You take a leven chack, did you splatch? Did you
26:03
Speaker 4: look at them? A microscope? Ain't no wind? Will you
26:07
Speaker 4: can sling? That's media? Yeah, microscope step, But yet steal,
26:18
Speaker 4: she said, that's the coat, that's the jaging, that's the perpetrator.
26:22
Speaker 2: Wolf.
26:23
Speaker 4: They won no cludges, meet, they won no sludget sircum.
26:26
Speaker 1: Well, there's a good explanation for there being no scratches
26:29
Speaker 1: on you, your face, your leather coat. It's painfully simple.
26:33
Speaker 1: It's because you weren't there that night. But she I
26:36
Speaker 1: d'd you. They were trying to make the square fit
26:39
Speaker 1: the circle, and they were willing to bend the rules,
26:42
Speaker 1: bend break the rules. They planted evidence in your car
26:46
Speaker 1: and tried everything they could to make sure that they
26:48
Speaker 1: got a conviction in this case. And people were out
26:52
Speaker 1: in the street protesting as well.
26:54
Speaker 4: Right.
26:54
Speaker 1: So, but when they arrested you, they offered you a
26:58
Speaker 1: plea deal so they could make all of that public
27:00
Speaker 1: outcry just go away.
27:01
Speaker 4: No, they locked me up when they love me, or
27:04
Speaker 4: they offered me a seven year tree. They offered me
27:08
Speaker 4: a seven year of tree, told me that I would
27:10
Speaker 4: be back home in three years, and they made it
27:13
Speaker 4: explicitly clear that if I didn't take the tlee, if
27:17
Speaker 4: there was daryming for my life. So, I mean, I
27:21
Speaker 4: got people in the street, gem the straight, I got
27:23
Speaker 4: my family, I did the street. I got people in
27:25
Speaker 4: the street fills. They said it's support. I knew exactly
27:29
Speaker 4: what they wanted, man. They wanted me to pe feed
27:32
Speaker 4: out to that charge so they could put it on
27:36
Speaker 4: front pains old letters, long tea. This was a great job.
27:42
Speaker 4: So always, y'all, I got hollering and yelling and throwing things,
27:44
Speaker 4: unsaying he's going home. But I knew I couldn't do
27:48
Speaker 4: that because number one, my dad said, I didn't raise
27:52
Speaker 4: y'all say you did something when you didn't do it,
27:56
Speaker 4: I turned down the tree. So I was facing yesterday.
28:02
Speaker 4: God was a serious lead to the same year, State Carolina.
28:11
Speaker 1: But then we get to the trial itself, and this
28:15
Speaker 1: is going to shock exactly no one. But the jury
28:20
Speaker 1: was all white. Let me just say that again. This
28:24
Speaker 1: is an all white jury Conquered North Carolina nineteen seventy six.
28:30
Speaker 1: The jury was handpicked by the Cabres County sheriff. And
28:34
Speaker 1: get this, three of the members of the jury worked
28:38
Speaker 1: for Canon Mills. And you'll remember that the victim's husband
28:43
Speaker 1: worked at Canon Mills as well.
28:45
Speaker 2: So the jury chairperson at the time created a master
28:49
Speaker 2: list of jurors. To get us summons for jury duty,
28:52
Speaker 2: you had to be on that list. And prior to
28:55
Speaker 2: Long's trial, he brought that list of master jurors first
29:00
Speaker 2: to the sheriff and allowed the sheriff to strike through
29:03
Speaker 2: any person on that list that the sheriff deemed unfit
29:07
Speaker 2: for jury duty. He then brought the list to the
29:10
Speaker 2: conquered police department, and testimony is that the chief of
29:16
Speaker 2: police and some of his deputies sat there and did
29:20
Speaker 2: the same. So law enforcement, the very people who investigated
29:26
Speaker 2: this case, ended up lying about this case. About the
29:30
Speaker 2: evidence collected in this case played a role in the
29:32
Speaker 2: selection of the jurors who ultimately found mister Long guilty.
29:38
Speaker 2: And in this trial, every single witness that testified for
29:43
Speaker 2: the state of North Carolina was white. Every single witness
29:48
Speaker 2: that testified on behalf of Ronnie Long to demonstrate his innocence,
29:52
Speaker 2: to prove his alibi, to show that he was nowhere
29:55
Speaker 2: near the victim's home on the night this attack occurred,
29:58
Speaker 2: was black. And by selecting an all white jury in
30:02
Speaker 2: segregated Concord, North Carolina, in nineteen seventy six, ultimately what
30:07
Speaker 2: we had was a circumstance where the jurors were being
30:10
Speaker 2: asked to decide between finding their neighbors truthful or finding
30:15
Speaker 2: the people from the other side of the tracks, the
30:18
Speaker 2: black side of town. They would have had to find
30:21
Speaker 2: them truthful over the officers who are their neighbors, who
30:26
Speaker 2: were the people who lived in their community, their side
30:29
Speaker 2: of town. That's what it would have taken to find
30:32
Speaker 2: Long not guilty. And of course we all know how
30:35
Speaker 2: it played out.
30:36
Speaker 1: And this courtroom there was a racially divided court, with
30:39
Speaker 1: blacks on one side and whites on the other. And
30:43
Speaker 1: of course, now the really awful result, but predictable result
30:48
Speaker 1: of this sham trial, was that on October first, nineteen
30:53
Speaker 1: seventy six, with his whole life in front of him,
30:57
Speaker 1: Ronnie Long was convicted and sentenced to two life terms.
31:01
Speaker 1: His mother fainted, and a riot nearly ensued. Long himself
31:05
Speaker 1: has called his conviction a quote modernized lynching sanctioned by law.
31:11
Speaker 4: When they found me guilty, they started fighting in the courtroom.
31:15
Speaker 4: They started fighting. Man I shoted, I started moving. My
31:20
Speaker 4: mom stopped, said bed me. She grabbed me afield, She said,
31:27
Speaker 4: who anto, Julie holds.
31:32
Speaker 5: Love?
31:33
Speaker 4: The still right there? Get that, man.
31:36
Speaker 5: I won't even rally the night and listen to this.
31:39
Speaker 1: So after Long's conviction, concord bubbled over with fury. The
31:44
Speaker 1: next day, hundreds of protesters descended on the cities downtown,
31:49
Speaker 1: staging a demonstration in front of the courthouse, and for
31:53
Speaker 1: days fifty or more police officers in full riot gear
31:57
Speaker 1: stationed themselves at a nearby park, and the least chief
32:00
Speaker 1: arned protesters that violence would be met with force. So
32:06
Speaker 1: I mean, nothing has changed. And the bravery, the courage
32:10
Speaker 1: of these people who protested putting themselves in grave danger
32:15
Speaker 1: from the same police force that had just framed their friend,
32:19
Speaker 1: their neighbor, their fellow human.
32:21
Speaker 2: I had spoke with his trial counsel, Jim Fuller prior
32:25
Speaker 2: to the May seventh arguments, and he said, Jamie, I've
32:30
Speaker 2: only been maced one time in my life, and it
32:34
Speaker 2: was after the verdict when outbursts occurred in the courtroom
32:40
Speaker 2: and law enforcement decided to clear out all the supporters
32:43
Speaker 2: of LNG. And he said officers were beating a young
32:47
Speaker 2: man and he tried to pull the officers away, and
32:51
Speaker 2: they turned and sprayed him Long's trial attorney in the
32:55
Speaker 2: face with mace.
32:59
Speaker 1: Nothing has changed.
33:03
Speaker 5: It's really.
33:06
Speaker 1: It's really hard to you know. I mean, I'm trying
33:11
Speaker 1: to be optimistic, and you know, I think we are
33:13
Speaker 1: on the verge of change, but it's remarkable how much
33:18
Speaker 1: things are as they were forty four years later, the
33:30
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation history. Can you walk us through that, Jamie,
33:35
Speaker 1: because it's quite extraordinary in and of itself.
33:40
Speaker 2: It's been a long process. So it began in the
33:44
Speaker 2: nineties after he was convicted, he filed his first what
33:47
Speaker 2: we call here in North Carolina emotions for Appropriate Relief.
33:50
Speaker 2: They're the post conviction review petitions that initiate post conviction proceedings,
33:57
Speaker 2: and it was related to the jury. He was ruled
34:01
Speaker 2: against during the course of those proceedings. That was then
34:05
Speaker 2: appealed in federal court arguing the same things, that he
34:09
Speaker 2: didn't commit the crime and that his trial was unfair
34:11
Speaker 2: in part because of the way in which the jury
34:14
Speaker 2: was seated, and he was ruled against sing federal court.
34:18
Speaker 2: Over the years, he tried to get people to help him,
34:21
Speaker 2: and then in two thousand and five, the Innocence Project
34:24
Speaker 2: that the University of North Carolina took interest in the case,
34:28
Speaker 2: and the present litigation began. They found an attorney to
34:32
Speaker 2: work with Ronnie. That attorney did all the work necessary
34:37
Speaker 2: to uncover not just the lies, but the evidence that
34:41
Speaker 2: was withheld from Long at the time of his trial,
34:44
Speaker 2: and they went into state court and held an evidentiary
34:48
Speaker 2: hearing where the judge hurt testimony related to the withholding
34:51
Speaker 2: of this evidence. That's a real interesting proceeding because the prosecutor,
34:56
Speaker 2: the individual who tried Ronnie Long in nineteen seventy six,
35:01
Speaker 2: took the stand and testified for long that he didn't
35:05
Speaker 2: have copies of these reports. He didn't know that this
35:07
Speaker 2: testing was done. Had he known that it was done,
35:10
Speaker 2: he would have required that it been turned over. He
35:12
Speaker 2: also talked about a sexual assault kit that we haven't
35:15
Speaker 2: ben talked about, that they collected one from the victim
35:18
Speaker 2: and then it subsequently disappeared.
35:20
Speaker 1: Jesus yeah.
35:22
Speaker 2: So he testified for long, but despite all that, the
35:25
Speaker 2: judging state court ruled against Long and found that he
35:30
Speaker 2: hadn't proven that his ranks were violated. The case then
35:33
Speaker 2: went to the North Carolina Supreme Court. There are seven
35:37
Speaker 2: justices on the North Carolina Supreme Court. One set out
35:40
Speaker 2: the decision, and as a result, the Supreme Court split
35:45
Speaker 2: three to three. So Tye went to the state. Ronnie's
35:49
Speaker 2: conviction was upheld and he was still incarcerated. It then
35:54
Speaker 2: went to an organization in North Carolina called the North
35:58
Speaker 2: Carolina Innocents Inquiry Commission, and they reviewed the case and
36:01
Speaker 2: their focus was trying to find the sexual assault kit
36:04
Speaker 2: that was collected and disappeared. They did not find it,
36:07
Speaker 2: but they actually discovered that in two thousand and eight
36:11
Speaker 2: during the course of those proceedings, officers led again by
36:15
Speaker 2: saying that they had no physical evidence remaining in the
36:17
Speaker 2: case in their custody, when in fact they had all
36:20
Speaker 2: the late fingerprints that had been collected from the crime scene.
36:25
Speaker 2: That's when I got involved, and as you're reacting to,
36:28
Speaker 2: how just atrocious and an affront to justice this case is.
36:33
Speaker 2: I had the same initial reaction the other attorneys I
36:36
Speaker 2: work with at the Wrongful Convictions Clinic. We worked to
36:39
Speaker 2: file another Habeast petition on Ronnie's behalf. It was dismissed
36:44
Speaker 2: because the district Court said that we had failed to
36:48
Speaker 2: bring the fingerprint related evidence in state court prior to
36:53
Speaker 2: filing our Habeast petition. Of course, it would have been
36:56
Speaker 2: brought in state court had it not been hid during
36:58
Speaker 2: the time that the state post conviction litigation was ongoing.
37:02
Speaker 2: We appealed that dismissal. The Fourth Circuit reversed and sent
37:06
Speaker 2: it back to the district court. Then the district Court
37:10
Speaker 2: once again granted a dismissal on behalf of the state.
37:14
Speaker 2: The district court said that while we had shown that
37:18
Speaker 2: evidence was withheld, that it was favorable to long, but
37:22
Speaker 2: that the state court was reasonable in determining that the
37:25
Speaker 2: evidence was immaterial to the outcome of his trial, so
37:31
Speaker 2: it was dismissed again and we appealed that decision, which
37:36
Speaker 2: came in July of twenty eighteen. The Fourth Circuit Court
37:40
Speaker 2: of Appeals heard oral arguments in May of twenty nineteen.
37:45
Speaker 2: A panel entered a decision two to one saying that
37:50
Speaker 2: Long had failed to demonstrate the materiality of the evidence
37:54
Speaker 2: since the State Court again was reasonable. That decision came
37:58
Speaker 2: down in January of twenty twenty. We then asked for
38:01
Speaker 2: full court review. It's called a petition for rehearing in bank.
38:06
Speaker 2: And what that triggers is that full fifteen judge review
38:09
Speaker 2: of the case. The court agreed to hear it while
38:13
Speaker 2: sitting in bank and next to the argument we had
38:15
Speaker 2: in on May seventh of twenty twenty. So it's been
38:18
Speaker 2: a long fight to get to the point where we
38:23
Speaker 2: know that the judges are at least, you know, seeing
38:27
Speaker 2: the injustices here that we saw as evidence by the
38:30
Speaker 2: statement of Judge Win during the course of those oral arguments.
38:33
Speaker 1: And so here we are ending where we started with
38:36
Speaker 1: the words of Judge Win expressing his frustration over how
38:40
Speaker 1: this happened to Ronnie, amongst so many others. I hope
38:44
Speaker 1: you all feel that same frustration and anger right now,
38:48
Speaker 1: Judge Wynn said, quote, prosecutors clearly had evidence that any
38:53
Speaker 1: defense council in the world, not only in nineteen seventy six,
38:56
Speaker 1: but in the history of this country would have wanted
38:59
Speaker 1: or needed, and we should have been supplied, and yet
39:03
Speaker 1: we did not provide it. What is it about us
39:07
Speaker 1: that we want to prosecute and keep people in jail
39:09
Speaker 1: when we know evidence may exist that might lead to
39:12
Speaker 1: a different outcome. Why is that so offensive to us
39:15
Speaker 1: now that we want to protect illegal activity from forty
39:19
Speaker 1: four years ago? End quote? And of course he was
39:23
Speaker 1: referring to the illegal activity on the part of law
39:27
Speaker 1: enforcement in this case. Quote what's the harm of looking
39:31
Speaker 1: at the new evidence? He said? When did justice leave
39:34
Speaker 1: the process? So we let our rules blind us to
39:37
Speaker 1: what we all can see? End quote. You know the
39:42
Speaker 1: fact that the cops took all the evidence from the
39:45
Speaker 1: crime scene and never turned it over alone, that should
39:50
Speaker 1: be it. They knew it wasn't him from the beginning.
39:54
Speaker 1: It just hurts my heart to think of this life,
40:00
Speaker 1: this poor fucking guy. Since we recorded this podcast with
40:12
Speaker 1: Jamie and Ronnie, I read a quote from Ronnie's mother
40:14
Speaker 1: saying that she is just waiting. This is a quote
40:17
Speaker 1: from her, just waiting on Ronnie to get out. God
40:20
Speaker 1: let me live to see him get out of there.
40:23
Speaker 1: End quote. Since nineteen seventy six, Ronnie's grandmother, his two sisters,
40:28
Speaker 1: and his father have all passed, and unfortunately they were
40:32
Speaker 1: joined by his mother on July eleventh, twenty twenty Rest
40:35
Speaker 1: in peace. The family asked Jamie to speak at the
40:39
Speaker 1: funeral about Ronnie's case. Ronnie still has his wife, Ashley
40:43
Speaker 1: Long waiting for him. She started a petition on change
40:46
Speaker 1: dot org that I've already signed, asking Governor Cooper to
40:50
Speaker 1: commute Ronnie's sentence. I hope you'll join me. There's a
40:53
Speaker 1: link in the episode description. Just scroll down, click and
40:57
Speaker 1: let's bring him home. Now to the episode as it
41:01
Speaker 1: was previously recorded. Now it comes to the closing of
41:07
Speaker 1: the show, which of course I call closing arguments. This
41:10
Speaker 1: is where Jamie, I thank you again for being here, Ronnie,
41:16
Speaker 1: thank you for calling in. And now I'm going to
41:19
Speaker 1: turn off my microphone and leave my headphones on and
41:24
Speaker 1: just listen. Jamie, thank you.
41:26
Speaker 2: Jason. What I would add is the listeners here, I'm
41:31
Speaker 2: sure have heard about cases that involve hiding exculpatory evidence. Separately,
41:37
Speaker 2: they've heard of cases involving misconduct and potential lies told
41:43
Speaker 2: on the witness stand, cases involving racial injustice. And here
41:48
Speaker 2: we have everything togethering one. We have the original trial
41:53
Speaker 2: prosecutor testifying on behalf of the defense, acknowledging that materials
41:59
Speaker 2: were not only hitting from the defense but from him
42:01
Speaker 2: as well. We have evidence pointing to another individual as
42:05
Speaker 2: the perpetrator. We have evidence of misconducting lies from officers.
42:11
Speaker 2: And despite all that, forty four years later, Ronnie Long
42:14
Speaker 2: sis in a prison in North Carolina. I ask everybody
42:19
Speaker 2: listening to this to seize this particular moment that we
42:24
Speaker 2: are living through in history by taking one action among
42:28
Speaker 2: what I hope is many, to help Ronnie achieve justice
42:33
Speaker 2: in his freedom. To do that, I hope not only
42:36
Speaker 2: that you'll go to change dot org and sign the petition,
42:39
Speaker 2: but also contact the Governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper.
42:44
Speaker 2: His email is Roy dot Cooper Cooper at NC dot
42:49
Speaker 2: gov and tell him to free Ronnie Long now. Because
42:53
Speaker 2: while we prove his innocence in court, which we plan
42:57
Speaker 2: to do, the governor can make this injustice right tomorrow
43:01
Speaker 2: by commuting long sentence to time served and letting him
43:04
Speaker 2: walk free. And it's forty four years past due for
43:08
Speaker 2: that to occur. And I hope you all will send
43:12
Speaker 2: a message to the governor that if he truly believes
43:15
Speaker 2: that black lives matter, that lives matter, that he would
43:21
Speaker 2: use his executive authority to see that Long goes free,
43:25
Speaker 2: not next week, not next month, that Ronnie needs to
43:28
Speaker 2: be free.
43:29
Speaker 4: Now.
43:30
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jason, Yeah, and thank you Jamie. And I'm
43:32
Speaker 1: going to just jump in for one more minute and
43:34
Speaker 1: say that if anyone here knows someone who knows the
43:37
Speaker 1: governor direct the outreach can be a game changer. So
43:41
Speaker 1: thank you very much, Jamie, and now I'm going to
43:43
Speaker 1: turn it over to our featured guest, Ronnie Long.
43:50
Speaker 4: Well, as you know, man, I appreciate the flatform that
43:52
Speaker 4: you appreciate and you let me tell my story. There's
43:57
Speaker 4: a lot of people you know, says, they're still don't
43:59
Speaker 4: know who I am, and the flattered me begins. I've
44:01
Speaker 4: heard of me, but they don't know the circumstances behind
44:04
Speaker 4: the treatment. I appreciate what you did for me or
44:07
Speaker 4: what you're doing for me, and hopefully one day in
44:10
Speaker 4: your spens here for a circumit compact the season, I
44:14
Speaker 4: could prove everything understands that I'm saying here. Yeah, soever
44:17
Speaker 4: they had against me, but no more than the high
44:20
Speaker 4: witness identif chasing. They had falls that had flaws. And
44:25
Speaker 4: if they know what I'm saying, if they knew they
44:27
Speaker 4: had the right man, if they knew they had the
44:28
Speaker 4: right man, say, why did they pick by ourselves it's
44:31
Speaker 4: a chest. If they knew they had the right man, yes,
44:34
Speaker 4: and why did they would hold sixteen ynys physical evident
44:37
Speaker 4: they just about the head of the guy. If any
44:39
Speaker 4: of that ever just had a point towards me, and
44:41
Speaker 4: they would have put off that everness to court. They
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Speaker 4: know they didn't have they had the wrong man. They
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Speaker 4: know that I wouldn't know the person being assault as
44:48
Speaker 4: this moment, but yet still just still put me there.
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Speaker 4: Other in his life sings and I've done for it
44:53
Speaker 4: four years in regardless you understands saying the whether or
44:57
Speaker 4: not I be use cached now whatever.
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Speaker 5: Supportful videos, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
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Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts.
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Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
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Speaker 1: Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in
45:22
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
45:26
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how
45:30
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
45:32
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
45:36
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
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Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
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Speaker 1: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
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Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one