Latest / The Action Catalyst / Connection Over Perfection, with Matt Abrahams (Communication, Speaking, Behavior, Business)

Transcript

Connection Over Perfection, with Matt Abrahams (Communication, Speaking, Behavior, Business) · The Action Catalyst

0:00
Stephanie Maas: Well, thank you for being here. We're super
0:01
excited to have you. Yes, there is a lot that I want to talk
0:06
about. But let me just start kind of bigger picture and then
0:10
we'll come down a little bit. So in reading a little bit about
0:13
your background, I want to start with something about your name
0:18
being later in the alphabet that has led to your life's work.
0:23
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, not later in the alphabet earlier in the
0:25
alphabet. So with the last name, Abraham's A B, I always went
0:31
first in school, I always knew where I would sit, I always know
0:33
who was going first. I was a teacher, a high school teacher
0:37
for a couple years. And I understand that it for high
0:39
school and elementary school teachers, it's really easy just
0:42
to organize your life alphabetically. But what that
0:44
meant is I was always dealing with spontaneous speaking, and
0:47
my latest work is really all about how to be a better
0:50
spontaneous speaker. And it's something that I've been
0:52
developing some because of my last name. And some because of
0:56
circumstances I found myself in, really did initiate this
1:00
interest in this notion of how do we speak better in the
1:02
moment? And if you think about it, most of our communication is
1:05
spontaneous. It's not planned. It's a somebody asks a question,
1:09
ask for feedback, you're making small talk. And so we need to
1:12
learn how to do this better. So we can be more effective in
1:16
these circumstances.
1:17
Stephanie Maas: So you remember being called on Matt, you get to
1:20
go first.
1:21
Matt Abrahams: Oh even more than that, it's like, Okay, we just
1:23
read The Scarlet Letter, your turn to tell me what you think
1:26
about whoever the main character was? And I yeah, I was often
1:30
called on first to answer questions much to the relief of
1:33
my fellow students, they were actually grateful, because by
1:36
the time it got to them, they had time to think and plan.
1:39
Stephanie Maas: So what do you say like, how do you, I would
1:43
imagine, but please educate us, when you're in spontaneous
1:46
conversation, there is the internal dialogue that you have
1:51
to deal with at the exact same time as getting prepared to
1:55
speak and attempting to not sound like an idiot, which I do
1:58
enough for everybody. So tell me about that. How do you deal with
2:02
that?
2:02
Matt Abrahams: Well, I'm certainly happy to share I mean,
2:04
my whole goal is just to help people do better in any
2:06
communication circumstance, it boils down to two things, it
2:10
boils down to mindset and messaging. So we have to get our
2:14
mindset and approach aligned with our goals of speaking in
2:18
the moment. So first, we have to manage anxiety, anxiety looms
2:21
large in all communication, but especially in spontaneous
2:26
speaking. And then we have to reframe how we see this, first
2:29
and foremost, the goal we have many of us, when we're put on
2:32
the spot, we want to do our job, right, we want to give the best
2:37
answer, we want to give great feedback, we want to be the most
2:40
interesting person in small talk. And that puts a tremendous
2:44
amount of pressure on ourselves and makes it actually less
2:46
likely we will achieve those goals. So we have to switch from
2:49
perfection to connection, just have the goal be connecting and
2:53
conveying the information you need rather than doing it right.
2:57
And by the way, there is no right way to communicate. there
3:00
better ways in worse ways. So the first thing we have to
3:02
reframe is our goal. The second thing we have to reframe is the
3:05
whole interaction. Many of us see the spontaneous speaking
3:08
situations as threatening as something we have to defend
3:11
against. When somebody asks us a question, we feel challenged
3:14
when somebody asks for feedback, we feel put on the spot. And yet
3:17
we need to reframe those as opportunities. It's an
3:20
opportunity to extend to expand to collaborate. So by reframing
3:23
the goal, and just the whole experience, we can do better.
3:26
And then we have to think about messaging. So it's not just
3:29
mindset, it's also messaging. messaging in the moment, what
3:33
can really help us is leveraging a structure a structure provides
3:36
a roadmap, but directionality many of us when we're put on the
3:40
spot, we just blather we just list information, itemized
3:44
different things, and our brains are not wired for itemized
3:47
information structure really helps. To give you an example of
3:51
a structure if you've ever watched a television ad problem
3:54
solution benefit is how that ad is most likely been constructed,
3:58
there's a problem or challenge here's a way of solving it
4:01
through the product or service and then here's the benefit.
4:03
That's what a structure does. It's a logical connection of
4:06
ideas. So by focusing on mindset and focusing on messaging we can
4:10
actually manage these situations very effectively and be not only
4:14
less stressed but more connected in the process.
4:18
Stephanie Maas: Okay, so what is a good structure?
4:21
Matt Abrahams: Oh, there's so many good structures don't get
4:23
me started problem solution benefit as I mentioned
4:26
comparison contrast conclusion past present future my favorite
4:30
structure in the whole world is three simple questions. What So
4:35
what now what you start with the What the What is your idea your
4:39
feedback, your update your product or service? The so what
4:43
is why is it important to somebody you're speaking to what
4:46
value does it bring? And then the now what is what comes next?
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So by leveraging a structure like this, or many others, the
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whole second part of my my new book is all about structures for
4:56
different circumstances, you can actually do better so I
4:59
encourage people To find structures that work from them,
5:02
and then leverage it. Now I want to take a quick timeout. I just
5:05
used what So what now what? To answer that question, I told you
5:08
what the best structure was, I told you why they're important.
5:11
And I encourage everybody to find one and use it. So it's
5:14
just a simple, easy way to package up information for me as
5:18
a communicator. But it hopefully helps you as a listener,
5:22
understand it, and then act on it better. That's the power of
5:25
structure.
5:26
Stephanie Maas: Well done. Well done, touche.
5:29
Matt Abrahams: Thank you. Thank you. I scored a point. Good.
5:32
Stephanie Maas: Okay, so you talk a little bit about some
5:34
science based strategies to manage the anxiety. I think for
5:39
a lot of us, that's a big part of it, that if we could just
5:41
quiet that we actually can communicate relatively well. So
5:45
give me a couple of thoughts on when what's between your ears
5:48
goes nuts and answering a question. How do you get that to
5:51
chill out?
5:52
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, it's not just what goes on between the
5:54
ears. It's what's goes on in your body as well. So in
5:56
managing anxiety around speaking, you really again have
6:00
to take a two pronged approach. Everything comes in twos here,
6:02
you have to manage symptoms and sources. Symptoms are the things
6:06
that we physiologically experience what happens in our
6:09
body, our heart rate beat faster, we might get shaky. For
6:12
me, I turn red and I blush what happens for you, Stephanie, when
6:14
you get nervous and speaking situations?
6:17
Stephanie Maas: I don't know if I actually turn red, but I feel
6:19
like I'm turning red.
6:20
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, we feel that that getting hotter? Yes,
6:23
absolutely. These are very normal and natural reaction
6:26
symptoms. And then there are sources that we can deal with as
6:30
well. Let's start with the symptoms. There are many things
6:32
we can do. My first book was called speaking up without
6:35
freaking out and there were 50 techniques based on academic
6:38
research that can help us feel better. Let me give you just a
6:41
few. One is to take deep belly breaths. Deep breathing tends to
6:45
work for most people by taking a deep inhalation filling your
6:49
lower abdomen. If you've ever done yoga or tai chi, it's that
6:52
deep breathing. And then the key is the exhalation. You want your
6:56
exhale to be longer than your inhale. And the longer your
7:00
exhale is the more impact you have. So just taking two or
7:03
three deep breaths like this slows down your heart rate slows
7:06
down your speaking rate stops some of the shakiness and allows
7:10
your voice to be deep and resonant when we get nervous, we
7:13
breathe shallow and our voices change if you get shaky besides
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deep breathing big broad movements, moving your body
7:20
forward, if you're physically in front of people standing that
7:23
allows that adrenaline which is causing the shakiness to
7:27
dissipate. And if you're like me and you turning red or feeling
7:31
hot, that's the result of your heart beating faster, your body
7:34
tensing up, it's like you're exercising your blood pressure
7:38
is going up. And what we need to do is cool ourselves down. And a
7:42
great way to do that is hold something cold in the palms of
7:45
your hand, the palms of your hand or thermo regulators for
7:48
your body. On a cold morning, I am certain you've held a warm
7:51
cup of tea or coffee and felt it warm you up just by holding it,
7:55
we can do the reverse by holding a cold bottle of water and it
7:58
causes you to sweat less blush less. So those are some things
8:01
we can do for symptoms. Sources are the things that initiate or
8:05
exacerbate our anxiety, we've talked about some of that
8:08
reframing we can do in terms of connection over perfection,
8:11
seeing it as an opportunity. A good one also is many of us are
8:15
made nervous by the goal that we are trying to achieve. When
8:19
you're speaking you have a goal my students want to get a good
8:22
grade, the entrepreneurs, I coach want to get funding, you
8:24
might have a great idea you want people to adopt, and we're
8:28
nervous that we won't achieve it. So that means we're afraid
8:32
or being made afraid of something that is in the future.
8:35
And the best way to short circuit that is to become in the
8:38
present. So you can do something physical, you can listen to a
8:40
song or a playlist like athletes do, you can start at 100 and
8:45
count backwards by a challenging number like seven teams, there's
8:49
a lot you can do to bring yourself in the present moment.
8:51
So by managing symptoms and sources, we can actually tame
8:55
that anxiety beast and be more comfortable speaking planned or
8:59
spontaneously.
9:01
Stephanie Maas: So you are quoted as saying "daring to be
9:05
dull"?
9:07
Matt Abrahams: Yes. So this goes back to that notion that we put
9:10
a lot of pressure on ourselves to do our communication, right.
9:14
So I borrow an idea from the world of improvisation. When I
9:18
did the research I did into speaking spontaneously, I looked
9:21
across many fields, psychology, anthropology, neuroscience, and
9:25
even improvisation. And in it, we probably had these wonderful
9:28
sayings dare to be dull. I've actually turbocharged that and
9:32
encourage people to maximize their mediocrity. By striving
9:37
just to get it done, rather than to do it perfectly. You actually
9:41
free up more cognitive bandwidth to focus on what you're doing.
9:46
Think of it this way. If I am constantly judging and
9:48
evaluating everything I say, I have less bandwidth to focus on
9:53
what I'm saying. And this is why memorizing is so bad for us.
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When we memorize we've created the right way to Say it. And as
10:00
I'm speaking, I'm constantly comparing back and forth. And
10:03
that means I have less energy to focus directly on the
10:06
communication that I'm trying to do so daring to be dull
10:10
maximizing mediocrity is all about focusing on the audience,
10:14
we're speaking to that connection, and letting go of
10:16
that perfection. So we're dialing down the volume on how
10:20
we're internally focused. And we're actually increasing the
10:23
volume on how we're externally focused. Okay, there's another
10:28
phrase in improv that I think is so powerful for many of us when
10:31
it comes to spontaneous speaking, which is, do what
10:34
needs to be done nothing more, nothing less. Many of us get in
10:38
our heads and say, How do I answer this? Right? How do I not
10:40
offend somebody? So sometimes daring to be dulled? Doing what
10:43
needs to be done is all you need to do? And that helps you be
10:47
effective in that moment.
10:49
Stephanie Maas: Love it. Okay. How do you get out of a
10:53
conversation that you don't want to be in?
10:55
Matt Abrahams: Uh huh. Yes. So that can be very challenging. So
10:59
a lot of the one of the main areas I talked about in the
11:01
second part of the book is small talk. And small talk is one of
11:04
these things where we often find ourselves in conversations that
11:07
we don't want to be part of, and we need to get out of them. So I
11:12
have my podcast, think fast talk smart had the pleasure of
11:15
interviewing someone named Rachel Greenwald, Rachel is
11:17
fascinating. She is an academic and a professional matchmaker,
11:21
and she has wonderful advice. And she taught me what I call
11:25
her what she calls and what I use is the white flag approach.
11:28
And it doesn't mean surrender, it doesn't mean you're in a
11:30
situation a conversation, you'd want to be in a new surrender.
11:33
Rather, in auto racing, they signaled the last lap by waving
11:38
the white flag, it tells all the drivers that we're about to end
11:41
the race. In conversation, you can exit politely by simply
11:45
waving the white flag, simply say in a few minutes, I want to
11:49
go talk to somebody over there. But before I go in, you ask
11:52
another question, or you share some information with them about
11:55
something they said. So you continue the conversation just a
11:59
little bit longer. And then you excuse yourself now, because
12:02
you've previewed that you're excusing yourself, nobody's
12:05
surprised, there's less awkwardness, it gives the other
12:09
person or people a chance to figure out what they're going to
12:11
do. So they're not just left there, in a strange way. And it
12:15
gets us away from the exiting of most awkward conversations that
12:18
we do, which is through biology, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I have
12:21
to go to the bathroom. So instead, by waving the white
12:24
flag, it's just much easier. It's much more graceful. And I
12:27
use it all the time. And it works.
12:30
Stephanie Maas: Okay, second part of that, how do you answer
12:33
a question that you don't have any answer for?
12:36
Matt Abrahams: Yes. And many of us find ourselves in these
12:38
situations. So you say I don't know. Right? So when somebody
12:41
says, you know, ask you a question, and you don't know the
12:44
answer, you say, I don't know. But you immediately follow it up
12:47
with what you're going to do to find the answer out and give a
12:49
timeframe for when you will get back to them. And if you have a
12:52
hunch or an inkling as to what the answer might be, you can say
12:55
that so I might say something like, I don't know that answer.
12:58
I'm gonna go talk to Stephanie, and I'm gonna get back to you
13:01
within 24 hours. My hunch is the answer is this. Now many of us
13:05
feel that when we don't know an answer, that that's her rific.
13:08
That that's awful. In fact, the expectation that you know,
13:11
everything is pretty strange, right? It's not reasonable.
13:15
Also, many of us feel that we lose credibility. In those
13:18
moments, we don't know answers. There's some preliminary
13:21
research that says, actually saying you don't know, saying
13:26
how you're going to find out and then actually following up
13:28
bolsters your credibility as much if not more than when you
13:32
had you initially answered the question. Now, obviously, you
13:35
don't use this is a ploy. And purposely do this to boost your
13:38
credibility. But we worry that it's going to put us at a
13:41
disadvantage. And in fact, by demonstrating tenacity, by
13:44
demonstrating that you have the wherewithal to figure out and
13:47
find out information that actually helps you in these
13:50
circumstances. So we need to let go of that notion that we need
13:53
to know everything. Now, obviously, if people are asking
13:56
lots of questions, and you don't know many of the answers, that's
13:59
a different situation, one where there's probably a mismatch
14:02
between your expertise and the demands of the circumstance. So
14:06
saying, I don't know is not the end of the world. And it may
14:09
actually be okay and helpful.
14:11
Stephanie Maas: Super helpful. Okay, negative feedback. It's a
14:15
good way when you know, and again, I'm not talking about
14:18
being mean, or mean spirited, or anything with Mal intent, but
14:22
constructive, but you know, will be received as negative
14:27
feedback.
14:28
Matt Abrahams: Yes. So first and foremost, I am a disciple of Kim
14:31
Scott, and radical candor. I think her work is fantastic. Kim
14:34
has a friend, she's actually a neighbor. And so that approach
14:38
that feedback is something that can be beneficial and, and is
14:42
something that needs to be given constantly, not just
14:45
constructive feedback, but positive feedback, neutral
14:47
feedback. And in giving feedback all the time. Any one instance
14:51
of constructive feedback is perceived very differently than
14:55
if there's no feedback and then all of a sudden, constructive
14:57
feedback. I see constructive Negative feedback as an
15:01
opportunity to problem solve, and when you reframe it as such,
15:05
it changes the way you approach the whole thing. Now, certainly
15:08
there are things that people do that need to be stopped right
15:11
away, it's inappropriate, it's wrong, you're not going to say,
15:14
hey, hey, let's have a conversation about No, you just
15:17
have to stop it. But for most constructive feedback, it is in
15:20
your best interest to collaborate with the person to
15:23
actually achieve results. So first see it as an invitation to
15:26
problem solves, which means you want to invite the person in
15:29
rather than making them defensive. So it changes the
15:32
tone in the language that you use. I have a structure that I
15:35
love to use, or feedback, especially spontaneous feedback.
15:40
It's four eyes for eyes like glasses, it helps you see
15:44
better, but each step starts with the letter I the first
15:47
hidden information. It's the objective reason I'm giving you
15:50
the feedback. Imagine you're a manager, and you have an
15:52
employee who consistently shows up late and unprepared to
15:55
meetings, I might start the feedback by saying this is now
15:58
the third time you've been over five minutes late for the
16:00
meeting. That's information. It's level setting. It's here's
16:04
what the feedback is on. Its objective. Anybody attending the
16:07
meeting would say, yep, that person's late. And it's the
16:09
third time the second eye is impact. What does this mean for
16:13
you, the giver of the feedback, and this is where we use I
16:15
language, I feel, I think, I believe, when I use you language
16:20
that sounds accusatory and likely makes you defensive. So I
16:22
might say, I feel you're not prioritizing this meeting the
16:25
same way the rest of us are. The third eye is the invitation. I
16:31
might ask it as a question, I might say, what can we do to
16:33
help make sure you show up on time to the next meeting, that's
16:36
an invitation is formed as a question, I could make an
16:39
invitation that is a declarative sentence, I'd like for you to
16:42
attend the next meeting five minutes early. And then finally,
16:45
the final lie. The fourth eye is implication, these are
16:48
consequences, they can be positive or negative. If you
16:50
show up on time to the next meeting, we'll finish this
16:52
project earlier and get a new, really cool one. Or I might say,
16:56
if you don't show up on time, next time, we might have to
16:58
remove you from the team. So it's information, impact,
17:02
invitation, in implications. And if you remember, the four eyes,
17:06
not only does it package over the feedback in a way the
17:08
recipient can understand it. It also helps you as the giver to
17:13
prioritize what you say, so that the feedback is clear. We have
17:17
all been the recipient of feedback that's vague, and we're
17:20
trying to figure out what do I do What was actually asked of
17:23
me. So having it structured this way, as an invitation can help
17:26
you and the recipient.
17:28
Stephanie Maas: I'm gonna go flip the coin a little bit. So
17:31
we talk a lot about communication, as a society and
17:35
as a culture, both professionally and personally.
17:39
Or as individuals, there has been this like, tremendous ramp
17:44
up over the last, you know, 20 years to really understanding
17:48
the importance of communication. And now what I'm hearing a lot
17:53
of is the word communication, saying, hey, it's not just the
17:58
communication. It's the comprehension. Share with me the
18:03
other side of the coin, the comprehension.
18:06
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so communication is a two way
18:08
street, right? There's a very simple but famous model of
18:11
communication. That's called the transactional model. There's a
18:14
sender and a receiver. And the sender has to get the message to
18:18
the receiver in a way that they understand it. So it's not just
18:21
about broadcasting. It's about helping people comprehend. And
18:25
there's several things that help do that one we've already talked
18:28
about. And that is the structuring of a message. Our
18:31
brains are not wired to receive lists. We don't remember lists.
18:35
Well, bullets kill don't kill people with bullet points. You
18:38
know, in fact, I'd ask you, Stephanie, how many items do you
18:41
need to have on a shopping list? Before you actually have to
18:45
write it down? For me, it's three, if I have to go to the
18:48
grocery store and get more than three things, I have to write it
18:51
down, or I'll forget something. Our brains just aren't wired for
18:55
lists. So structure helps. The other thing we have to do to
18:58
help is we have to focus our messages. I believe the most
19:01
precious commodity we have in the world today is attention.
19:04
One of the reasons people don't comprehend remember act on our
19:08
messages is they're being bombarded with so many. So we
19:11
have to focus our messages to make them clear and concise, so
19:14
our audience understands it. So we need to make sure that we
19:17
package them up through structure, but also make them
19:20
incredibly relevant. And goals focused. If they're focused on a
19:24
goal and relevant to our audience, they're more likely to
19:27
understand and comprehend what we're saying. And the final
19:30
thing we have to think about is whenever we speak, we suffer
19:34
from the curse of knowledge and the curse of passion. We know a
19:37
lot about what we're speaking on. And we're really passionate
19:40
about it. We need to make sure that we translate our messages
19:44
so our audience understand it. We often will use jargon and
19:47
acronyms and terminology that our audiences don't necessarily
19:50
understand. So we have to translate it so that they can
19:53
really appreciate it. So it's about structure. It's about
19:56
focus, and it's about accessibility. That's what helps
19:59
people comprehend our messages.
20:01
Stephanie Maas: Very good. Okay, so I heard this phrase
20:04
last week, and I really liked it. And we are all very familiar
20:08
with the term two sides of the coin. And this person that was
20:11
going to explain something said to me, Hey, there are two sides
20:15
to every coin. But there's also the ring around the outside of
20:19
the coin. So while it's not perceived as a side of a coin,
20:23
it is part of it. So for in listening to you, and hearing
20:27
this message of communication and setting ourselves up to
20:30
communicate in a way that can be comprehended. My understanding
20:34
is that you have had some extensive martial arts training
20:38
as well. And maybe this has been the circle around your coin.
20:42
Matt Abrahams: There are lots of circles around my coin. Thank
20:44
you. Yes, I grew up in a family of people who talk all the time.
20:48
So I had to learn to be louder and more focused. I grew up in a
20:51
family of teachers. So I've always been focused on that. But
20:54
yes, martial arts has played a big part of my life. I've
20:57
studied martial arts for over four decades, many different
21:01
styles, I've taught martial arts, I still teach martial
21:04
arts. So yes, it's had a huge impact on my life. And quite
21:07
frankly, I think everybody should have some physical outlet
21:10
that helps them explore the issues of their lives in a
21:13
different way. You know, I have chosen a very cerebral
21:16
profession, where we do research we teach, we talk about we
21:19
discuss, we debate, and I think it's important to have some
21:22
physical outlet where you can still deal with some of those
21:26
same issues, and maybe it's hiking, maybe it's a musical
21:29
instrument, maybe it's doing something else with your hands.
21:32
But really, for me, martial arts has been really, really important.
21:35
Stephanie Maas: So, how? I mean, thank you for saying that.
21:38
But for people who don't have a super physicality to them, they
21:43
often go Yeah, I hear it's great. Okay.
21:45
Matt Abrahams: Right. So the martial arts for me, helps me be
21:48
helps me be more present oriented, you know, people see
21:51
the martial arts is just physical, and you watch these
21:54
things on TV, where people are just pummeling each other. And
21:57
that's maybe one tiny portion of the martial arts. But martial
22:00
arts are a very spiritual, very connected very, very
22:03
psychological endeavor, as is, I believe, any sport add at a
22:06
certain level. And so for me, it helps me be more present
22:09
oriented, it helps me when I'm practicing to just be in the
22:13
moment gets me in touch with my body and my breath. When you're
22:16
working with another person. Let me tell you that feedback comes
22:19
in lots of ways, but in the martial arts, it's very direct,
22:22
and sometimes quite painful, and you learn from it. So it's
22:26
helped me be present. It's helped me Listen, and people
22:29
think listening in the martial arts. You know, when you're
22:32
doing what you do in the martial arts, you have to pay acute
22:35
attention, and you're focused and listening to how somebody
22:38
moves, how they breathe, what their tendencies are, these are
22:41
all skills that helped me I believe, in my day to day life.
22:44
It also is a space where I do it for me, and it's a way of
22:48
recharging in revitalizing myself. So I have a whole lot of
22:51
benefit that comes to me personally, just like I think
22:54
anybody can find in any physical endeavor.
22:56
Stephanie Maas: Very cool. Okay, tell me a little bit about the
22:59
books. And then tell me a little bit about your podcast.
23:02
Matt Abrahams: Excellent. Thank you for the opportunity. So I've
23:05
written two books, the first book is speaking up without
23:08
freaking out, it really tries to help people find ways to manage
23:11
anxiety. Everybody is different. When it comes to anxiety. The
23:15
one thing that is true is most people feel anxiety when
23:18
speaking. And so the book is really designed to present
23:21
different options, tools and tactics that you can use, even
23:24
though they're 50. In the book, the hope is that three or four
23:27
will work for you, not everybody responds the same way. And then
23:31
the newest book, Think faster. Talk smarter is all about what
23:34
we started to speak on, which is how to speak better in the
23:37
moment. So the first part of the book is a methodology. It's a
23:40
methodology I developed to help our Stanford MBA students, but
23:44
it applies to everybody. And then the second part of the book
23:47
highlights very specific situations like we talked about
23:50
feedback and small talk, but also how do you make apologies?
23:53
How do you introduce yourself? How do you answer questions? So
23:57
these are all very specific, spontaneous speaking situations
24:00
that the book addresses. And then finally, the podcast Think
24:03
fast talk smart we we've been on air for almost four and a half
24:07
years now. We focus exclusively on communication. We're
24:10
sponsored by Stanford's Graduate School of Business 20 minute
24:13
episodes where I get to interview just amazing experts
24:16
in communication. And we talk about everything from how to be
24:19
persuasive, how to negotiate, negotiate, how to manage
24:22
conflict, how to brand yourself and actually position yourself
24:26
well, super fascinating, super fun. And I'm really excited that
24:29
we've won lots of prestigious awards. But we were also
24:32
nominated in one best dog walking podcast because we're
24:35
exactly 20 minutes. And apparently, that's how long
24:38
people walk their dogs.
24:40
Stephanie Maas: That's awesome. What a great recognition.
24:43
Anything at all we have not spoken on or talked about that
24:47
you want to.
24:48
Matt Abrahams: So there's one thing that's important, I think,
24:50
to think about and that is listening. Listening is actually
24:53
a really important communication skill, but it's actually
24:56
critical for spontaneous speaking. You know, I've talked
24:59
a lot about what we do to commute We get our messages out.
25:02
But we also have to listen to understand better what is needed
25:05
in the moment. We all don't listen that well, we listen just
25:08
enough to get the top level of what somebody is saying. So we
25:11
need to listen deeper, we need to listen for the bottom line,
25:14
not the top line, we need to listen not just to what's said,
25:17
but what's not said how it said where it said, and that can
25:20
actually influence how we respond. I'll give you a quick
25:23
example. Imagine you and I come out of a meeting and you say,
25:26
Hey, Matt, how do you think that went? If I'm just listening for
25:29
the top line, I say, Oh, she wants feedback. And I might
25:32
start diving into here are all the things we could have done
25:35
better hear the things that weren't great. But if I would
25:38
have listened more fully, I might have noticed you came out
25:41
the back door, not the front door, you spoke more quietly
25:43
than usual, you were looking down. All of this might clue me
25:46
into the fact that you really don't want feedback, what you
25:49
really want is support because you're not feeling that that
25:52
went well. So by listening more astutely for the bottom line, I
25:56
can respond better, and perhaps help our relationship rather
25:59
than hurting it.
25:59
Stephanie Maas: Okay, this sounds like a preview to your
26:03
next book.
26:04
Matt Abrahams: I don't know if there's a next book, but I
26:06
definitely am spending a lot of time talking about listening and
26:09
talking a lot about how to collaborate with people and
26:11
manage through conflicts and challenges that happen.
26:13
Stephanie Maas: Man, thank you so much for being here. This has
26:17
been incredible. I've taken a page and a half a note. I hope
26:21
you didn't mind. And I just really appreciated your time and
26:25
willingness to share.
26:27
Matt Abrahams: This was fun. I enjoyed the conversation very
26:29
much. It was lovely to chat with you. Thank you and I appreciate
26:32
the opportunity.