Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Carrington Smith Trabue | Legal Recruiter Shares Her Lawyer Recruiting Secrets

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Carrington Smith Trabue | Legal Recruiter Shares Her Lawyer Recruiting Secrets · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

0:02
Unknown: Hi, and welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast.
0:04
With us today is Carrington Smith, terview TradeView, former
0:10
trial lawyer, best selling author, single mom and owner of
0:13
Carrington legal search. So for the past 22 years, Carrie has
0:18
advised executives on career and life and I've invited her here
0:22
today to really give us the inside scoop on legal recruiting
0:28
what is going on in the legal recruiting world right now? And
0:31
how we can use that knowledge to our advantage, and hiring those
0:37
eight plus performers on our team. So welcome, Carrie, I'm so
0:41
glad you're here. I'm sorry, I probably butchered your last
0:44
name.
0:46
Because it goes with the territory. No worries.
0:48
So thanks for being here, though. I'm excited to talk with
0:52
you. You've been on our books for a little while, and I've
0:53
been looking forward to this. First, tell us a little bit
0:57
about your journey, because you were a practicing attorney for
1:00
several years before you started this legal recruiting business
1:04
in 2000. So tell us a little bit about you. And how you you know
1:10
what, you led you to be a lawyer? And then what led you to
1:13
do this and kind of away from it?
1:16
Sure. Well, I think that, like many people growing up were so
1:22
much better these days with the internet as having exposure to
1:25
lots of different types of careers. But I grew up the
1:28
daughter of a doctor with the depression, I kind of had like
1:32
five career choices doctor or lawyer or accountant, banker,
1:36
you know, teacher that was about it. So I kind of thought, what
1:41
am I going to do and decided that I wanted to go to law
1:44
school, so and it was also that sort of just I needed to prove
1:49
to myself that I could do it that I was, you know, I kind of
1:52
meet that that level. So I went to Tulane Law School in New
1:58
Orleans. And I graduated in 1993. And I don't know what, you
2:04
know, the, I'm sure everybody has different in vintage of
2:07
graduation. But the year that I graduated, it was terrible as
2:12
far as the job market. And I was one of the lucky few to get a
2:19
job. The year that I graduated in Austin, the University of
2:24
Texas had a career services bulletin that they sent out. And
2:28
by the way, Career Services offices are a great resource for
2:33
solo and small firm lawyers to do their recruiting. I'll start
2:36
with that. So that that year, there was only one job
2:41
advertised in Austin. And the firm when I talked to them later
2:48
said they received over 300 resumes. Oh, yes. And that the
2:54
title of the job was associate slash client liaison. And so the
3:01
partner who hired me eventually told me that of those 300 250
3:06
did not address the client liaison aspect of the job. So I
3:10
was one of 50 that did. And then he they picked 10 of us from
3:15
that group and said, Send us a letter. Why should they hire us?
3:19
So I was very fortunate. I had recently taken a plane ride from
3:24
New Orleans to Austin and had been lucky enough to sit next to
3:27
the former mayor of Austin. Yes, it Carol Keaton Rhinelander
3:33
Mayor a long time ago. And she gave me her business card. And
3:38
so when I wrote this letter to them, why she Why should you
3:41
hire me? I attached her card. And I said, Why hire me as Carol
3:45
Keaton Rhinelander? Oh, well. He called me he picked up the phone
3:51
and called me and said you got my attention? And I said, Well,
3:54
I've just demonstrated, I have demonstrated that I have the
3:57
skills necessary for the client liaison aspect of the job. And
4:02
so and he agreed, and so I ended up getting that job.
4:05
Unfortunately, that firm was very, very dysfunctional. They
4:11
had about 15 lawyers, 1415 lawyers, depending on the time
4:14
of year, and they had a former Texas Supreme Court Justice that
4:18
worked there who sexually harassed me on a regular basis.
4:22
Oh, no. At the time in Texas, the law mirrored the federal
4:27
statute, and if you had less than 15 employees, then you were
4:34
not subject to the sexual discrimination laws. And so I
4:38
learned then the reason that this former Supreme Court
4:40
justice had chosen this firm was because of its size.
4:44
Wow, wow, that's crazy.
4:48
All right. Now, as a recruiter, unlike he should be at an
4:51
American lawyer, you know, and law 100 firm, but I didn't
4:55
understand that as a young lawyer. That was a big red flag.
4:58
Yeah. So I I'm so because they were sexually he routinely
5:03
sexually harassed me. And I reached out to a client, I
5:07
luckily had those client relationships. And I asked for a
5:10
reference and said, Look, I'm going to change jobs, I need to
5:12
vote with my feet, I need to move. And the client said to me,
5:17
well, wherever you're growing, work going, and I have 16 more
5:20
cases for you. Wow. So suddenly, as a second year associate, I
5:26
had portable business. And I talked to the other associates
5:30
and said, What do I do? And they said, We're leaving, we're
5:33
starting our own firm. Wow. Oh, yeah. So as a second year
5:38
lawyer, I was like, in over my head, but I had these more
5:42
senior associates with me, we started our own firm. And, you
5:46
know, gradually, my reputation grew. And I was fortunate to
5:50
really land some great clients and get to first share some
5:53
cases. But I realized through that process, that I really
5:58
missed a lot of the social aspects of what I, you know, I
6:01
was a very social person, and, and ended up deciding to go into
6:06
exec executive search, legal recruiting, so that I could use
6:10
my law degree, but have more of a social life as opposed to
6:15
being tied to the billable hours. I know many lawyers hate
6:18
that. And so I've been doing this now. So I was a lawyer
6:22
practicing for seven years. And I've been doing this now for 23
6:25
years. So I do bring a wealth of experience on that. Yeah.
6:29
Yeah. Wow. So what made you what was the pivotal moment for you
6:34
to start your own legal search?
6:37
Business? Yeah. So when I first started doing legal search, I
6:44
just kind of really was just looking for any legal search
6:47
firm to take me because I just so desperately wanted in the
6:49
field. And so I took the first job that I was able to get, and
6:53
it turns out, it wasn't a great firm. And I learned very quickly
6:57
that they were taking a lot of my money and not investing in me
7:02
as an employee. And so I received very little mentoring
7:05
or training, but they were more than happy to take more than 50%
7:09
of what I was bringing in. And that didn't seem like a fair
7:12
deal to me. So I decided to start my own search firm. And I
7:17
had my own firm for two years. And then I'm sure many of you
7:20
all know, major Lindsey and Africa. Bob major reached out to
7:25
me and through a mutual friend who I'd worked with at that
7:28
first firm, and said, You know, I know you're doing these
7:32
general counsel searches for Fortune 500 companies, what are
7:35
you doing out here on your own, you need to come work with us.
7:39
And I was nine months pregnant. So I have to say it got me in a
7:42
very weak moment. And I went and worked for them for two years.
7:46
But my accountant will tell you, it was a very expensive learning
7:49
experience. So wow, I learned a lot. But again, I realized I
7:54
actually it made more sense to be out here as a small firm, as
7:58
opposed to being part of it.
8:00
So what what's interesting with your story, I do think there are
8:04
some people that just are, we're Mavericks, we're entrepreneurs,
8:09
we have that sort of spirit. And, and we see things when we
8:14
go up, because I've had a lot of experiences where I've worked
8:17
in, you know, other businesses worked in engineering firm,
8:21
worked in law firm works in an agent, ad agency, all of those
8:25
things, and, and experience things that didn't sit well with
8:30
me. And a lot of that is what led me to go to law school
8:35
specifically for the purpose of starting my own business.
8:40
Because, like you, I came up my first career before becoming a
8:45
lawyer, I came up in the 90s was working in firms in the 90s,
8:48
there was a lot of sexual harassment, there were a lot of
8:51
people who would take advantage of young people. There wasn't as
8:56
much sharing of information that you see now in the culture among
9:01
people, and the resources that are available to help you that
9:05
are available on through social media and online now, we didn't
9:08
have those now not I thought you were out here by yourself.
9:12
Unfortunately, you're somebody who's good at relationships. So
9:14
you were able to talk with people and get information, and
9:18
they choices but I can see, you know, like you I've certainly
9:21
done that where I've workplaces and then after a little while
9:24
you're like this is something is rotten near and I have to move
9:27
on to something else. And it's interesting to me that in most
9:31
every situation, your solution was I'm just going to start my
9:34
own. Where do you think that spirit of entrepreneurship or
9:40
that level of confidence comes from? Where you where you just
9:44
go, you know, I can do this. What do you think that
9:47
originated for you?
9:48
Well, interestingly, so I authored a book recently during
9:54
COVID. And one of the things I talk about in the book is where
9:59
I did Find that confidence from and I think it's a surprising
10:02
place. And that is, I was raped in college. And yeah, but I have
10:09
to say I'm somebody, the title of my book is blooming, finding
10:12
gifts in the shit of life. And I'm somebody who believes that
10:16
the traumas we experience are actually fertilizer, the
10:20
fertilizer we need to grow to bloom into our greatness. And so
10:23
by going back and examining those, that trauma and other
10:28
traumas in my life, I came to realize that it actually bred a
10:32
quiet confidence in me, because I learned about myself that if I
10:37
could get through that I could get through anything. And so for
10:40
me, there really you hear people talk about, like, the fear of
10:44
making that leap. There was no fear. And I really believe it's,
10:49
I like to find the blessings and the bad things. In that sense.
10:52
It really was empowering to me, because I learned, I could make
10:56
it through a lot of really tough stuff. So I wasn't afraid of it.
10:59
It's interesting, you say that I interviewed someone back, I
11:03
think it was last year, another woman who got a very rare type
11:08
of cancer at a really young age in her 20s. And it and it made
11:12
her and it she went into remission, and then it
11:16
reoccurred. So it was really an ongoing sort of traumatic
11:20
situation. But she said the same thing, experiencing such when
11:24
you're faced with life or death situation, you do develop kind
11:29
of like nothing else really scares you into that level, you
11:32
know, so I can see where that where you took that away from
11:36
it. And it's wonderful that you were able to take that away from
11:39
such a traumatic experience. Because you know, some people
11:45
don't take take away that same thing. Let's, let's jump into
11:51
sort of the legal recruiting aspect. And tell us a little bit
11:55
about carrying to legal search, and what you guys do, the
11:59
clients you serve, and all that you've been doing this since
12:03
2000. So you've been around for quite a while. So I'm sure the
12:05
pandemic and all that all that has affected. So I'm sure you
12:10
got a lot of stories. So I get this idea of what to do how what
12:13
you do first?
12:14
Yeah, so you're right, I've been through quite a few business
12:17
cycles, right? I mean, I started my recruiting firm, in 2000. And
12:22
then, of course, the internet bubble burst immediately
12:24
thereafter. So I like many, you know, solo, small, firm owners,
12:29
as you know, being having your own business, you've got to be
12:32
constantly adapting and being creative and figuring out new
12:35
strategies for whatever comes your way. And for me, when the
12:40
internet bubble burst in 2000, I realized and this again, goes
12:45
back to not having social media, barely having the internet. That
12:51
the there was a whole group of lawyers in Austin in particular,
12:55
that had no affinity group to support them. And that
13:00
particular group of lawyers were the in house lawyers. And so at
13:04
the time, I was sitting on the board of directors of the Austin
13:07
Bar Association. And with that huge blow to the economy, there
13:11
was a big retraction and membership. And they were they
13:14
were looking for new members. And they're like, anybody have
13:17
any ideas? And I said, Yeah, I've been doing research I've
13:20
been, I had this free time, all of a sudden, I've been creating
13:23
this database of all the in house lawyers in Austin, I said,
13:26
I've identified over 400. But at the time, we didn't have a
13:30
chapter for the Association of corporate counsel, there
13:33
literally was no group to support these lawyers. And so I
13:36
said, I think we should create a section for the in house lawyers
13:40
in Austin. And the President of the bar said, I love the idea,
13:45
and you're in charge. And so
13:48
it's always the way with you, it's always the way when you
13:51
suggest or recommend anything, you just get instantly
13:54
volunteered to head it up.
13:57
Yeah. And so I recruited a number of in House lawyers in
13:59
Austin to serve as the officers and I put myself as the
14:03
administrator to the group and set up the events into the
14:06
marketing and all of that, and really kind of just made myself
14:09
of service and not in a selling mode, but just as a partner to
14:12
the group. And that group took off like wildfire. And then the
14:18
association of corporate counsel took notice and decided to
14:21
create an Austin chapter and ended up absorbing that group
14:23
into it. Of course, you know, this is a classic example of I
14:27
do all this hard work, and then they're like, well, but you
14:29
can't be involved anymore carry because you're gonna have to pay
14:32
a sponsorship fee because now we're the association of
14:35
corporate counsel, but likely I do most of the people already.
14:39
But that was the beginning of a really focused practice for
14:43
really a big portion of this time that I've been doing it
14:47
I've mostly done in house. So and what I my strategy has
14:52
always been at the same super sticky which is to find
14:56
companies where I've really aligned with their mission and
14:58
values. And then become their go to outside legal recruiter. And
15:04
so like, for instance, USAA was one of my clients for about 15
15:08
years through different general counsel's HR people, but just
15:12
having that alignment of goals and values, really, I mean, I
15:15
knew how to sell USAA, I really believed in that brand. And one
15:20
of their top lawyers left and went to nationwide, and he's now
15:23
the chief legal officer at Nationwide Insurance. And so
15:26
they've been my client now for about seven years. So it's
15:30
creating those long term relationships and that
15:32
stickiness. But then, more recently, probably in the last,
15:37
I guess, five or six years, I started doing more law firm
15:40
partner recruiting. Just because that's sort of my vintage now.
15:45
Right? So I'm 54. Now a lot of the more senior law firm
15:50
partners are at that stage of the game. Now they're like,
15:53
Okay, what am I going to do next, maybe it's time to make a
15:55
change. Instead, I've kind of gotten more involved in the
15:58
partner work. But interestingly, since we're talking about the
16:01
solo, sort of small firms, and one of my dear friends from the
16:05
Austin Bar Association Board years ago, has her own small
16:09
firm, they've got about six lawyers. And right now we're
16:12
helping them find a lawyer. So I really can speak to working with
16:17
the smaller firms.
16:18
Yeah, yeah, I something I interviewed a another legal
16:23
recruiter a while back. And one of the things that we at that
16:26
time had just started to happen is you would have large law
16:32
firms that were sort of poaching from the medium sized firms and
16:35
the medium sized sort of sort of poaching in small firms. And
16:38
then the law firms, small firms are turning around looking and
16:41
going, Okay, who am I going to poach from? There's nobody. And
16:45
so the way most people, the women law firm owners who are
16:50
running these firms that are, you know, 10 employees or fewer,
16:55
they may be solos, they may just have their first hire of a
16:58
lawyer, or they may have two or three, the way they're doing it
17:01
is they're doing a lot of placing ads and hoping somebody
17:05
responds to the ads. And whereas before you'd get hundreds of
17:10
resumes, now you're lucky if you get two or three, and then
17:13
you're trying to pick between those two or three, that may not
17:15
be a great fit. One of the things is very interesting about
17:18
what you have said so far, is how you've had all these
17:24
opportunities, because you've been so good at creating long
17:28
term relationships. And I'm wondering if that is really key
17:33
for hiring good, high performing lawyers and employees to work
17:40
with you. Is it? Is it a long term relationship? Or are you
17:45
seeing those working? Where people, you know, are putting
17:48
ads out? Or what are you seeing? And what do you think that we
17:51
can do to sort of deal with that?
17:55
Yeah. Well, you're right, that is happening, where we're seeing
17:59
people kind of go down the chain as far as poaching from
18:02
different firms. And you're right. I mean, I know there's a
18:05
number of firms, particularly here in Austin that have no
18:09
associates anymore, their associates have just evaporated.
18:12
And so I think it's really important. First of all, to work
18:18
with the local law school career services. So whatever, you know,
18:23
whatever city you're in, even if you didn't go to that law
18:26
school, like I went to Tulane, but I've used the University of
18:29
Texas School of Law many times for different things, not just
18:34
placing ads in their, in their job bulletin or online through
18:38
their services, but developing a relationship with the dean, and
18:42
letting them know what you're looking for. And so they can
18:45
have their eye out, because believe me, they're always going
18:47
to want to make sure that all of their students are employed. And
18:50
so it's, it's that it's also maybe getting involved with the
18:54
law school so that if you're involved with say, like a trial
19:00
advocacy program, or something, you already have relationships
19:03
with students, so that if they maybe didn't quite have the
19:06
grades, that they have the trial advocacy, advocacy skills that
19:09
somebody maybe might want to poach, being involved in local
19:17
groups that through the Bar Association, or women lawyers or
19:21
other affinity groups so that you're meeting people and you
19:24
have already you're already forming bonds. And then also
19:29
creating maybe like a Facebook group, or we have one here in
19:34
Austin. That's great. It's called Mama's. And it's for
19:39
women lawyers. And people post everything from legal questions
19:44
to babysitting questions on this Facebook group. And believe you
19:48
need if you were looking for a young lawyer, it'd be super easy
19:52
to post on there and say, Hey, does anybody know of somebody
19:54
that they think really highly up that they could recommend? So
19:57
those are all kind of different strategies that I will use
20:00
Yeah, a lot of a lot of my clients I know are looking for
20:06
they don't have the time to do the training of a baby lawyer.
20:09
And so they're looking for lawyers with 357 years
20:15
experience so they can bring in experienced lawyers to hit the
20:18
ground running. What kinds of ideas do you have for us, for
20:22
recruiting those types of lawyers who have a little bit
20:26
more experience? I think the Facebook group is a great idea
20:29
and networking with other other lawyers and other women lawyers
20:36
who appears? Certainly that's a great way to do it. What other
20:39
kinds of things are there things that we need to be thinking
20:41
about in terms of placing our ads and what we need to have in
20:45
there? You know, I core values, certain incentives?
20:52
Well, I think primarily, associating yourself with
20:58
different affinity groups is going to be the best way. But
21:02
when it comes to placing ads, knowing that I hired somebody
21:05
recently, through an ad, I think it's really important to write
21:11
the ad for the person who's, who's reading it, as opposed to
21:16
your list of job requirements. So tell them what they're going
21:21
to receive from working for you. So position your ad more about
21:27
whether if you are trying cases, you opportunity to actually have
21:33
first chair trial experience, work with lawyers that, you
21:38
know, have done a list, maybe kind of the type of work that
21:41
you've done big successes, let them know the advantages and
21:46
benefits of working for you. I mean, one of the things I
21:50
remember when I wrote out my own ad, I basically said, you know,
21:54
I'm looking for someone, and I can't remember all the words,
21:56
but dynamic, exciting. The world is your oyster, you know, kind
22:02
of letting them know, I'm conveying in this ad that I'm
22:06
not going to be micromanaging you, I'm looking for self
22:09
starter, if you're not a self starter, and you you don't
22:13
aren't good with autonomy, then this isn't going to be a fit.
22:15
But if you are someone, I'm gonna make sure I put a lot of
22:18
things in there that made it compelling. They're like, wow, I
22:21
really want to work with this person. So it wasn't just do I
22:24
read these things, and I could send in my resume, it was
22:26
literally something like, I want to work with that person. That
22:29
sounds like so much fun. That sounds so cool.
22:32
You know, I think that's terrific advice, because and
22:37
there's something really interesting that that caught my
22:40
attention. And that is I think a lot of times when people are
22:43
creating ads, they're thinking about if they're thinking in
22:47
terms of what am I offering this person, they're thinking about
22:50
benefits you get, you know, we have a 401 K plan here, or you
22:54
get Aflac, or we don't have insurance without, you know,
22:57
like they're looking for these benefits that I think he pointed
22:59
out something really interesting, which is pointing
23:04
out to them the citing opportunity to practice so you
23:07
get, you're gonna get the first chair, on trials, you're gonna
23:10
get trial experience, you're gonna get this. So it's all
23:12
those other things that lawyers want, besides just the things
23:17
that we think of as benefits, monetary benefits are things
23:20
like that, like working with a team of, you know, go getters or
23:25
a team who law if you'd love to go to trial, you're going to
23:29
love our team, we love to do that. Or if you love
23:31
transactional work and helping clients solve knotty legal
23:37
contract problems, you're gonna love this, but finding ways to
23:40
make the actual work itself sound exciting now deciding as
23:45
it as that's it can be for somebody who's enthusiastic and
23:48
loves that kind of work. Right. So I thought that that is a
23:51
great tip and a great idea. A lot of pee I saw in a lawyer
23:56
group, it's been a while back now. But somebody put some job
24:02
ad that they wrote, and it was all about all the things, all
24:06
the bad experiences they had they put in that ad, if you're
24:09
this person, don't apply for this person don't apply. And it
24:13
was a and then there are a lot of attorneys who you know, will
24:17
give tests like, you have to submit a video you have to do it
24:20
this way. You have to do this way. Because they want to see
24:22
you follow us instructions. And there was a time when when the
24:28
employer was in the control, etc. Right where we could or
24:33
week we were getting so many resumes and we had to find some
24:36
ways to eliminate people. So people who didn't follow simple
24:39
instructions was it was a way to eliminate people. But now I
24:44
think we have to wait for looking for those really high
24:48
performing people. We really have to think of it as sales
24:51
copy. Almost Absolutely. We have to sell the position to people
24:56
so they know why, why they want to come work for our firm As
25:00
opposed to all the other options that they're getting?
25:04
Absolutely, and it's so much more than just money. I mean, a
25:08
lot of people, you know, you can, you can be paid a ton of
25:11
money. But if you're just sitting there in your cube,
25:14
cranking out document after document, I mean, that is so
25:17
boring, and it's just miserable. And they may people may do that
25:19
for a year or two, but at some point, they're going to pull
25:21
their head up and go, there's got to be more in life. So it's,
25:24
it's conveying that, you know, you're going to have an
25:28
opportunity to do super high quality work, you're going to
25:31
have interaction with clients, you're going to get different.
25:34
The first chair, you're gonna get to work, arm and arm with
25:37
the client on a transaction, really sophisticated work. So
25:42
it's conveying those things and really putting your your head as
25:47
if you are the person reading the ad, what is going to get me
25:50
excited and make me want to apply and making sure you're
25:54
attracting the right people. That's the other thing. Yeah.
25:58
Right. Right. Absolutely. I think that's great advice. I,
26:02
you've written an article recently on diversity in the
26:06
workplace. And I want to talk about that a little bit, I
26:10
think. I know for a lot of women, law firm owners who are
26:17
white women, law firm owners, and they oftentimes they look
26:21
around their communities where they are. And they're, they're
26:24
finding that only other white people or white women are
26:28
applying for jobs in their community have to be a little
26:33
bit more intentional if they want to create a more diverse
26:37
work environment, and setting out but how does one go about
26:42
doing that? What are some ways that we can do that if we want
26:45
to be have a more inclusive and diverse law firm? We want things
26:50
to be different from law firms that maybe we've worked out
26:53
before? I know for me a big frustration was, you would pick
26:57
up the law for the reason I started this business because I
26:59
got tired of seeing a law firm, you know, pages that were all
27:04
white men of what I call the white men over 50. Club now that
27:06
I'm over 50, white men over 60 Club. Right, and their diversity
27:11
hire for white women. Yeah. And so if we want to create the firm
27:17
that we've always wanted to exist, what are some ways that
27:20
we can do that in a way that is not? You know, so over saying,
27:30
you know, I'm looking to hire people of color. Right, right.
27:33
So you don't even bother applying like, what? What are
27:36
ways that we can talk about that? Or do that or other things
27:39
we can do to recruit recruit from people that don't certainly
27:44
look like us or things like us?
27:45
Sure. Well, I, I think it's important to spend some time
27:53
kind of getting familiar with the other affinity group, legal
27:57
associations. So there are, you know, there's the minority
28:01
corporate counsel Association. Nam Wolf. You know, there's just
28:08
there's so many different groups out there, the Hispanic Bar
28:12
Association, the National Bar Association, and the PABA. I
28:18
mean, Bar Association there. Yes. Different affinity?
28:21
Yeah. So keeping those sort of on speed dial, so that when you
28:27
do post a job, you make sure you share it with them as well and
28:30
say, Look, I'm genuinely interested, and, you know, all
28:35
types. And, and I'd like to encourage people, in addition to
28:39
making sure people don't look diverse, there's also diversity
28:43
of thought and, and approach. So it's more than just, you know, I
28:49
just want somebody that looks different than me, it's about
28:52
really embracing different approaches to life. And so it's
29:01
not just like this. One way of doing things. I think that's
29:04
different culture,
29:05
a different way of thinking. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Do you
29:11
remember some of the numbers as I remember reading like, of
29:15
course, I've always looking at stats and things like that. Or
29:17
there's something that you wrote about like the percentages of of
29:27
diverse full that? Yeah. Did you do you remember any of this?
29:30
I've never got it?
29:31
Yeah, well, so they're, they're pretty, they've pretty much been
29:33
static. And so one of the things that as much as I mean, we
29:38
definitely have seen a huge and it's been really wonderful to
29:41
see a massive increase in the number of general counsel's who
29:45
are female and also diverse in the Fortune 500 that has been in
29:51
in huge improvement in just the last two years. But what's
29:56
interesting is when you go back and you look at the number of
29:59
diverse candidates It's even entering law school. And then,
30:03
you know, when you look at law firms and law firm partners,
30:05
these numbers have stayed the same. And so one of the things
30:09
that his matches, we have all these diversity efforts, it's
30:12
like what's going wrong here? And the answer is, people need
30:16
to have people who look like them to be mentors. And so what
30:21
we need to do is have more of the diverse people, the diverse
30:27
lawyers go back to and get involved with kids even at like
30:33
the high school or junior high school level. And there's some
30:36
really great programs. And I forget his name, there was a
30:41
gentleman and he was at Hewlett Packard. And now he just changed
30:44
to some other fancy job. But he was the president of the
30:47
Hispanic Bar Association at one point, and there's a program in
30:50
Silicon Valley, where they actually go into elementary
30:54
schools and start identifying kids and sponsoring and
31:00
mentoring them through junior high and high school through
31:03
college. I mean, it is a long term program. But basically,
31:06
they really want people to see that there's a path out of
31:09
poverty or whatever their situation is, and provide them
31:13
with the guardrails to get to law school and then succeed
31:17
later. So it's a long term process, it's not as simple as
31:21
just recruiting more people to law school even, you want them
31:24
to succeed in law school. And in order to do that, you've got to
31:27
start at a much younger level. So it's about really being
31:31
committed to it and looking at other creative strategies,
31:35
because it's, it still is going to be a long term effort.
31:39
A number of my clients are one of the reasons that I started
31:45
this business is because of my own dissatisfaction with what I
31:50
saw to be very traditional model in the legal industry. And like
31:55
I said, the partners were white men, and it was in the 90s, when
32:02
I was sort of my first career, I worked for a law firm, and there
32:06
were their idea of diversity inclusion work to start hiring
32:11
women and letting women like become pop partners, right?
32:14
Until then, they were hiring women, but you know, who was
32:18
getting to be partner? Yeah. And so it's still a very frustrating
32:22
and slow process. So for me being the rebel that I am, I
32:26
said, you know, I want to support, I want to support women
32:30
who, from all different walks of life, if you want to create to
32:36
perhaps be the name partners and have their names on the door, I
32:39
think we're the way we're going to have to do it is from the
32:41
outside and starting our own firms. Because you know, there's
32:45
only so much of begging for support inside of a large firm
32:49
that you can that you can do. And then after a while, you need
32:52
to like very much like what you did, you walked away from a
32:55
situation started your own thing. So a huge encourager of
32:59
starting your own. But then also thinking, when you start your
33:02
own firm, and you start hiring people, whether you are a person
33:06
of color, or you're white person, you know, whatever your
33:08
background is, looking at otherness and saying how can I
33:14
have other people here from different walks of life,
33:18
different ways of thinking, different cultures, different
33:20
upgrades? Because I think clients will be better served?
33:24
Absolutely, by that, you know, and I do like you said, I have a
33:30
client who's wonderful to alter a law firm. And she has started
33:37
at a very young age, just mentoring kids at her community.
33:41
And she's not a mom, she doesn't have kids yet, but she makes it
33:44
a point to go and be an example to kids and her community of
33:48
success and what it looks like so I do see where that is super
33:53
important. And then isn't in a more immediate term looking be
33:57
more intentional, I think you have to be more intentional
33:59
because it'd be very easy just to say well, this is these are
34:02
the only people who applied to my job offering as opposed to
34:06
actively recruiting which is what recruiters do so we
34:10
actively Carew Yeah. So from your, from you actively
34:15
recruiting are you using? Do you use LinkedIn much as a tool? I
34:19
know, recruiters really like to use LinkedIn as a tool.
34:24
Yes. And let me give my little pet peeve on that. That is a lot
34:28
of people will just put on there like I work at Sullivan and
34:32
Cromwell and like, that's great. What do you do? What section are
34:36
you in? What are your you know, what give me like a deal sheet
34:42
or a representative lawsuits or I mean, give me some color and
34:48
then what you do Labor Employment Do you just do what
34:50
Wage and Hour do you do employment litigation like? So
34:53
when I'm looking if I just see a firm name that tells me nothing?
34:57
tells me nothing. It tells clients nothing. So I, you
35:01
really, whether it's to get business because you're
35:05
marketing yourself, or it's just to be, as I like to say like
35:10
with the universe, just being open to opportunity, make sure
35:13
you put a lot of information on there that conveys who you are,
35:18
what you do, the level of skills that you have, whether you'd
35:20
like first chaired or not, you know, whether you've run m&a
35:25
deals on your own, whatever it is, make sure that you include
35:29
that information, because that's going to be critical. Whether
35:32
it's somebody looking to hire you or or hire you way.
35:36
Do you think that attorneys have a fear of, you know, they know
35:42
that there's attorney client privilege and confidentiality,
35:45
so they have a fear of if I put something on there, people are
35:49
going to be able to make connections, I'm gonna get into
35:51
the bar or anything like that.
35:55
I don't think it was partly laziness. I think that lawyers
36:02
have a huge fear of selling.
36:06
But yes, that would be true. That would be and
36:09
I can speak, I can speak for myself, I read. Um, I think it's
36:15
Daniel Goleman. It's a book that's to sell us human. That
36:20
book, every person listening to this podcast, please go get
36:25
your book, to sell us human. Yes.
36:28
And it, he talks about how every one of us even like the the
36:35
least salesy person on this planet is selling at some point.
36:39
And so he walks you through that to the point you I left reading
36:42
that book is, I guess I'm actually in sales, and I didn't
36:45
know it. And it made me once I took ownership of that I looked
36:50
at what I was doing very differently, and how I
36:52
approached things very differently. But for some
36:54
reason, particularly with lawyers, we feel like selling is
36:58
dirty. And that is not true. So remove that from your thought
37:04
process. Yeah, to Sell Is Human, you do it every day, all day
37:08
long, you don't even know you're doing it. And so when you read
37:11
this book, it will empower you and change your view on that.
37:15
Well,
37:15
that's wonderful. I will, we will include the link in the
37:18
show notes, along with the link to your book blooming, which I'm
37:23
eager to read and hear about your philosophy and story. And I
37:27
love your subtitle for that. So before we wrap up today, what
37:34
leave us with one gold nugget as women law firm owners who are
37:39
looking to create really get that t cultivate that team that
37:44
is a high performing loyal team who loves their work and loves
37:50
to work with us. What would be 123 things that we need to be
37:56
focused on to cultivate that team?
37:58
Yeah, well, I think the first thing is, as human beings, we
38:04
tend to hire people like ourselves. And that is a very
38:08
flawed thing when you're looking to create a team. Because if I'm
38:11
a quarterback, I can't hire five other quarterbacks, we're not
38:14
going to work. So it's, first of all starting out and identifying
38:19
your own strengths and weak strengths and weaknesses. And
38:22
then realizing what it is you need to add to create your team
38:26
that's going to fill you out, then as you hire, don't just
38:30
hire to like, Oh, I like that person, really evaluate their
38:34
strengths and weaknesses and what they bring to the team. And
38:38
make sure then that you you create a well rounded team that
38:43
meets a number of different needs, where you have different
38:46
subject matter experts, where they feel like this is you know,
38:50
they can take ownership of something and run with a ball on
38:54
a particular subject or different resource or process in
38:58
the office. And then open and honest communication is key. And
39:03
so creating that psychological framework in the office where
39:07
people feel safe, talking about their, their needs, that
39:13
processes know what's going on, and they don't feel like they're
39:17
going to be judged or criticized when they bring something up. So
39:23
strong communication, shared values. Collect a spirit of
39:29
collaboration, these are all things that are really really
39:32
important.
39:33
Right? I actually am so I always get other people to help me hire
39:40
because I am such a relationship oriented person. Yes, that I
39:48
usually find something I like about most people. Yes. And I
39:52
tend to gravitate for people who are like me, yeah, who are, you
39:56
know, artistic and creative and love to chat all those things.
40:00
leads, and people I really need on my team, like I have a
40:03
virtual assistant who I got someone to help me hire her, she
40:08
is very much an executor. And I can send her anything and she
40:12
just executes it and does it. But she's doesn't have a
40:16
personality like mine. And so I, I sought help. Because I think
40:22
that sometimes we think we're the best person to hire people
40:26
to work with us. And sometimes we're not. That's where
40:29
recruiters, HR coaches, those kinds of people's Can, can
40:33
really come in handy in helping us hire people for our team.
40:39
Because we have blind spots about our own, you know, who
40:43
were needing to fill in the gaps for us, you know, because these
40:47
are things that we don't like, for instance, you know, if
40:50
everybody has listened to my podcast knows, I don't like to
40:52
do bookkeeping, but I need people I need bookkeepers in my
40:55
life. You know, I need accountants in my life, I need
40:58
these people. And our personalities are very
41:01
different, but I need them. And I often need people to help me
41:05
identify who these these people are right? Because I don't see
41:08
them in the same way. So I do think that's terrific advice for
41:13
people and also to seek help, you know, it stopped trying to
41:18
do your strike may not be in hiring people might certainly is
41:21
not the whole thought of interviewing and writing an ad
41:25
and all of that is not for me. So I hire people usually to help
41:29
me with that. Right? Because it's just something I don't love
41:32
to do, right. So there are a lot of resources out there.
41:36
Certainly carry to legal search is an option too. You may not be
41:40
able to help some people but there may be some people reach
41:42
out and asked you never know right? It may be a good fit for
41:46
you to reach out and ask that. Tell us how we can connect with
41:49
you. Find out more information about Carrington legal search
41:53
and connect with you if we need to.
41:56
Sure. Yeah, so on LinkedIn on my profile is under Carrie spelled
42:02
ca ri e Smith TradeView. And of course tribe use tra bu II. You
42:10
can find my work website which is Carrington legal.com. And
42:17
also, you can find me on Instagram at Carrington, ATX, or
42:22
Austin, Texas. Lots of different resources there. So
42:27
cray cray, we will include all that in the show notes too. So
42:30
people can just go there and click and connect with you. And
42:33
also, we'll share a link to your book and the cell is human book.
42:39
So anybody who's interested in reading that, I've got to get a
42:42
copy of that. I'm curious. I've heard of it before, but I've
42:45
never read it. So thanks for sharing that. I appreciate you
42:49
being here today. Carrie, I've enjoyed it so much. Thank you.
42:53
Thank you so much for having me.