Latest / The Future Herd / 32: Food Security Cannot Be Separated From Ecological Health with Sarah Elton

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32: Food Security Cannot Be Separated From Ecological Health with Sarah Elton · The Future Herd

0:01
Sarah: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch.
0:03
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:14
Today's episode marks perhaps a kind of turning point.
0:18
Uh, in terms of the mission of this podcast.
0:22
Our focus has always been on the future of the AgriFood system, but
0:28
our lens in pursuing that future has been on leadership, the role of
0:33
leadership across the sector, and in particular the diverse forms and means
0:40
by which that leadership manifests.
0:43
And today's guest, Sarah Elton, is no exception.
0:49
Sarah is an incredibly talented, ridiculously smart and particularly
0:57
incisive when it comes to not only having a, a, a curiosity of systems, but a
1:04
literacy of those systems, an ability to explain those systems to people who
1:10
are both inside and outside of them.
1:13
And of course, agriculture.
1:15
AgriFood is a very system centric sector.
1:19
Every farmer understands the systems they run on their farm.
1:23
Every processor understands the systems that produce food.
1:28
And Sarah really brings it back down to fundamentals, to foundations of both a
1:34
society, but also science and values.
1:39
And I kind of describe this as a turning point because I feel after a bit of a
1:45
heat induced and holiday break that the future herd is really starting to shape,
1:51
take form, starting to, uh, have a, a certain sense of mission, which hasn't
1:57
changed in terms of understanding the future of the AgriFood sector, but it
2:03
also recognises why the sector needs more people, more talent, more perspective.
2:10
And Sarah Elton brings that in spade.
2:14
I mean, this is someone whose career started, uh, in journalism.
2:19
Uh, uh, moved from there into sort of long form writing, then into academia.
2:25
Now in the height of research and teaching and writing, this is exactly
2:32
the kind of leader that the AgriFood sector should be courting, should be
2:36
embracing, should be empowering because the perspectives that Sarah brings really
2:43
fills a lot of the missing pieces, a lot of the gaps, a a, a lot of the missed
2:49
opportunities when it comes to turning Canada into an AgriFood powerhouse.
2:56
That may seem a little paradoxical once you wade into the depths
3:01
of this fantastic episode.
3:04
But I'm saying this as kind of a preview of where I suspect this podcast is
3:09
going to be moving forward when it comes to not only speculating on the
3:14
future of the AgriFood sector, but actually implementing, executing, and
3:19
deploying the future of the AgriFood sector here on the future herd.
3:25
Alright, that's enough hype.
3:27
This is another one of those fire episodes that you're gonna wanna listen to.
3:32
. So, uh, let's tune in.
3:35
Jesse Hirsh: Sarah, welcome to the Future Herd.
3:39
Sarah: Thanks, Jesse.
3:39
I'm very happy to be here.
3:41
Jesse Hirsh: Now, uh, I think this episode will be a little different
3:44
from the others in that you and I have known each other for quite some
3:47
time, and I encourage you today to do what I'm gonna do, which is partly
3:52
catch up and get to know, uh, all the fascinating things that you've been up to.
3:57
Because as a researcher, you seem to connect systems, not just study
4:04
systems, but connect systems in a way that not a lot of researchers do.
4:11
Uh, and granted, I've been interviewing researchers on this podcast, as you
4:15
know, and they may take a systems view, but I kind of feel you're the
4:20
first to take a, for lack of a better phrase, like a meta systems view.
4:26
So, as a kind of starting off question, although let me pause
4:31
right there and say that'll be the second question I almost forgot.
4:34
The first question of every episode of the Future Herd is a very abstract
4:40
kind of RAR shot test style of what does the future mean to you?
4:49
Sarah: People usually answer with a sigh.
4:52
Jesse Hirsh: Yes.
4:54
Sarah: I'm not really feeling great about the future right now.
4:57
Um, I'm actually trying not to think about the future because it's truly crushing.
5:03
If we think of the, you know, interconnections of climate
5:07
change, inequality, war, uh, fascism, um, ai, um, what else?
5:14
What am I, what am I missing?
5:16
I'm sure I'm sure.
5:17
I, um, so to work and survive as a very privileged, fortunate person who
5:29
lives an extraordinary good life at the time of multiple collapses, um, I
5:38
just try to be in the moment and, um, appreciate, I know this sounds might
5:45
sound funny, but the seasons and really appreciate my bio region and where I
5:50
am, um, as a way of, you know, count.
5:56
Like not thinking about the bad stuff.
5:58
That said, right now my bioregion is having a major windstorm and so that is
6:04
like a little inflaming of one's anxiety.
6:08
Jesse Hirsh: I, I, I hear you.
6:09
I also got a tornado warning, uh, uh, today, although I, I,
6:14
I think our conversation may be safe before that extreme weather
6:18
hits me in Eastern Ontario.
6:20
Um, but we've already kind of evoked systems and, and I sort of, I was
6:25
so eager to start getting you to kind of talk about your approach to
6:30
systems and how you connect systems I almost forgot that first question.
6:36
And to your point, people's answers to that question are,
6:39
are really excellent icebreakers.
6:42
'cause they evoke systems and they evoke our relationship with systems
6:47
which not everyone's conscious of.
6:49
You are with other guests.
6:50
I kind of have to tease it out.
6:53
what I, I think as long as I've known you, you've been interested in systems.
6:57
So I guess the larger question is, when did you start connecting them?
7:01
Like when in your, either journalism or your research or your teaching, did
7:07
you start realising the real fun is not just studying a single system, but
7:12
looking at how multiple systems kind of interconnect and play with each other.
7:19
Sarah: Well, that's such an interesting question, Jesse.
7:20
I don't know, uh, because I've never thought of it that way, but certainly
7:26
when I was writing books as a journalist, I loved to write about systems.
7:31
Like that was so cool to see how the, and learn about how the
7:36
industrial food system worked.
7:38
And as a journalist, it's, you have this wonderful opportunity to learn
7:42
by calling up people and asking if you can come and spend some time with them.
7:47
And now I know, 'cause I'm an academic, not everybody gets the same opportunity.
7:52
So you could go to, I went to, you know, a green elevator and supermarkets and
7:58
farms around, like, literally around the world and on many continents,
8:03
and learned about the food system by interviewing people and talking to
8:08
people, and also reading scientific papers and putting all that together.
8:13
And I wrote a couple books about that and that's what inspired me to go back to
8:17
school, to do a PhD. Um, because I felt like, I'm like, oh, I need to, I wanna
8:22
be doing the research that I'm now, I'm writing about other people's research.
8:25
I wanna do the research myself.
8:27
So that's when I went back to, to university.
8:31
And I didn't end up doing what I thought I was going to be doing because I, I
8:34
learned about post humanist theory.
8:37
And so I think the answer to your question lies in reading about how
8:44
about philosophy that makes the human, um, takes the human what they say
8:49
on the same ontological plane that means nothing to 99.9% of people.
8:54
But that is the seeing the human as not more important than other life forms and
9:02
ecosystems on the planet to see the, the human being as equally as, um, as uh, uh,
9:09
having agency like can make things happen just as much as the wind right now is, is
9:14
perhaps making the internet connection.
9:17
So I can't really see your face 'cause because it's blurry, uh, because of,
9:21
of the, that's the agency of the wind.
9:23
And, and um, and, and so that, that entry into this world of what is
9:31
called critical social science and and critical theory really was super fun
9:37
and exciting and helped me to think with what we call more than humans,
9:42
which are all the life forms and things that get categorised as nature and.
9:48
I started my, did my PhD thinking about plants in people.
9:52
And now, um, in the last few years I've been working with
9:55
microorganisms in people.
9:56
And then I realised, I was like, wait a second, we can't even, how
10:01
can I even separate these things?
10:03
It's absurd.
10:04
Like it's all like, I am plants, I am microbiome, um, because
10:10
I be through the food system.
10:11
So that's, right now I'm working, like this morning I spent working on, um,
10:17
uh, talk I'm giving next week where I'll be, uh, talking about how, um, the,
10:22
the, the, the colon making the argument that the colon actually should be
10:26
considered to be part of the food system.
10:29
Um, because if we, what from, based on what we know what and what's emerging
10:33
in the microbiology literature.
10:36
Jesse Hirsh: So the synapses in my brain are, are firing at, at, at, at a
10:41
pace that will make me asking questions kind of difficult because there'll be
10:44
so many thoughts that I'll be trying to fuse in, but I for sure want to come
10:48
back to the colon and the microbiome, uh, if only 'cause I do think it is
10:52
a fascinating area of research that I think changes our notion of what an
10:57
individual is at, at, at a core level amongst all sorts of system implications.
11:03
But, but you said a couple things there I want to stitch together in,
11:06
into a, a kind of follow up question.
11:09
On the one hand is interesting to see you as an academic acknowledge
11:13
kind of the, the privilege that journalists take for granted, right?
11:17
That, that journalists often get access to conversations partly
11:22
'cause of the institutional power.
11:23
You call saying you're the CBC, people are gonna dish, they're gonna spill.
11:27
And you're right that academics and researchers often have a
11:31
lot more difficulty with that.
11:33
And, and if you want, by all means, you could talk about some of the
11:37
controversy here at Ontario around researchers in the food system and
11:42
access to producers and some of the laws that, that try to restrict, uh,
11:46
uh, that, I I, I wanna focus on one specific example before we go further.
11:53
'cause I, I think you and I are gonna get into some pretty crazy stuff today.
11:57
the locavore you were writing about kind of local food and local consumption of
12:03
food production before a lot of people were even conscious of this stuff.
12:08
And I kind of feel that that's afforded you a position see this concept evolve, to
12:15
see the literacy around local food evolve.
12:19
And I'm curious about your perspective there, right?
12:22
Ha has it played out the way you initially thought when you were first
12:26
a journalist going to something here compared to now where the industry
12:31
seems to be using the same language you were using Al, although in different
12:35
contexts and in different frames.
12:38
I'm curious, as someone who has been there, who's done that knowledge
12:42
work, your perspective is on, on the way that local food culture and our
12:47
literacy of, of, of the locavore, right?
12:50
Where, how that has evolved o over the years that you've been writing at ICU now
12:54
teaching, uh, about that kind of stuff.
12:59
Sarah: Well, certainly the story starts like the more, the more one
13:05
learns, the more one see the, the sees the story as being very, very long.
13:10
So, you know, way, way into the last century, um, you know, local
13:16
food, people have been wanting to, you know, protect food systems, um,
13:21
from what they saw as, you know, uh, impurities or, you know, make them
13:26
more natural for, for generations.
13:29
Um, and like we see a lot of this, uh, you know, a hundred years ago, but then in the
13:35
1960s, seventies, eighties, nineties, so by the time, um, the early two thousands
13:41
come along, the, the, the local food movement that I wrote about, um, in my
13:47
book, lo of War, that came out in 2010.
13:49
So that was, gosh, 16 years ago.
13:51
Um, that really was, I think, a response to that next stage of
13:56
industrialization that had happened.
13:58
Like, I certainly know I was writing from that.
14:01
Like I re um, I remembered a time before there were box boxes of lettuce
14:07
from California at the supermarket.
14:10
Um, I remembered a time when, you know, you that when you could
14:13
only get strawberries in season and asparagus was something that
14:17
came from Ontario exclusively.
14:20
And so I think people like me were thinking, Hey, something's
14:23
happening, something's changing.
14:25
Um, there's more pro like I, I remember when, um, president's Choice
14:29
invented all those food products and sauces, and everyone was so
14:33
excited in my family for sure.
14:35
And so we remembered these, these changes felt quick, and then suddenly I think,
14:39
uh, there was like a, that movement, oh, let's bring back farmer's markets.
14:42
We need to reconnect with local food.
14:44
And that certainly was, as you say, um, uh, you could say co-opted, um, bought,
14:52
you know, you go into now a major change supermarket and see a farmer's market
14:56
stand inside the, the supermarket that's not really a farmer's market stand.
15:00
Uh, and many other examples of how, uh, like sustainability, uh, concerns of
15:06
the local food movement have become, uh, used to talk about sustainable
15:11
beef, uh, and sustainable, you know, production of, of all sorts of foods.
15:16
And in some ways it's a really great thing and in some, some situations
15:20
and, and they're obviously talking about making industrial food systems
15:26
that have so many problems with, uh, unsustainability and inequity fi, figuring
15:32
out ways of making them, uh, less con of a contribution to climate change.
15:37
Uh, and.
15:40
That's like we, we'll put all, I'm gonna just put that, um, uh,
15:44
aside and say, so you asked me like, did I know what would happen?
15:49
Well, I'll tell you what has been most surprising has been in the
15:53
last year where I would never have imagined that obviously, I mean, like
15:59
all Canadians, that threats to our national security would provoke such a
16:06
widespread, I mean, this is more than 2010 when people, when the farmer's
16:11
markets were coming back in some ways, uh, that there's been such a surge.
16:15
Like people will just say, like, volunteer to me.
16:18
I only, I don't, I don't buy American food anymore.
16:20
I wanna buy only Canadian.
16:21
I don't actually think that that's true or possible given my experience and
16:26
observations at the, at the supermarket.
16:29
But, but nevertheless, this, uh, this nationalist fervour, um, has given, uh,
16:35
new fuel to, to local food movements.
16:37
And what's the most surprising is that now it's when, because we know
16:41
our na, we have the new national, uh, food security strategy announced
16:45
last week that it's what was, um, that what was more grassroots
16:49
before has now become state led.
16:53
Doesn't mean that the the goals are the same.
16:55
Doesn't mean that the, uh, mechanisms for, uh, localising are the same.
17:01
However, the, this idea that, that a country needs to have regional and
17:08
local food systems to be, to have food security that I would say has
17:14
now become like a national project.
17:16
Well, it, we know it has 'cause of the, of the, of the more than $3 billion
17:20
that were pledged to that last week.
17:22
So massive change.
17:23
Would I have, would I have, could I have predicted that I don't, I don't think so.
17:27
'cause of the sequence of events.
17:31
Jesse Hirsh: But it, it does to your point, speak to a rapidly changing
17:34
landscape, which does not necessarily mean that the objectives or policy
17:39
outcomes we desire will manifest.
17:42
But it creates all sorts of opportunities.
17:44
And, and I do kind of want to get us to the, the kind of post humanist, uh, uh,
17:50
systems and theories, but I think a, a, a natural through line for you has been
17:55
critical theory and critical thinking.
17:57
And, and I'd love for you to kind of talk about how that has been either a
18:04
driver or a, a facilitator, not just of your research, but also your teaching.
18:13
what I'm hearing in your language and in your conversation is, is you're situating
18:18
yourself within, you know, a, a larger milieu of scholarship, a a larger kind
18:24
of, you know, a, a diversity of voices who are, once you go outside of the kind
18:30
of dominant narrative of AgriFood in Canada, you start realising that there
18:35
are a lot of people raising a lot of really interesting, critical issues.
18:39
So I'd, I'd love to hear about kind of the role that you, that critical theory plays
18:43
in, in the work in teaching that you do.
18:47
Sarah: Oh, interesting question.
18:48
So the way I, right now, I feel like I have these, like two areas, um,
18:55
one where I do empirical work on food systems, where I'm, where I, you
19:00
know, think about, um, climate change, sustainability, and ju and justice,
19:05
um, like how can we have a, like what makes a food system that feeds us all?
19:12
Um, and then I'm gonna put like scare quotes around all because then in my, with
19:18
my work with critical theory, I like think about, okay, who is the all, um, and,
19:26
and we of course mean all people because all people we know in Canada do not have
19:32
access because they're food insecure.
19:34
Um, in fact, uh, the statistics are alarming for the number of people, you
19:39
know, um, around 20 plus percent do are, do are are food insecure in Canada.
19:44
So by all we need a food system that ensures that everybody
19:48
has access to, to healthy food.
19:52
Um, but also the all being from, uh, like how does this food system sustain us all?
19:59
We can't sustain ourselves tomorrow if we don't think of the all as being plants
20:05
and microbes and, and trees and the soil sphe and the, you know, all ev all life.
20:13
Um, and so that just that which is where I'm now working, uh, to try
20:19
to bring my, to my empirical and theoretical work together more and
20:23
more to be able to think about food systems from, sometimes I call it an
20:28
ecological public health perspective.
20:29
Sometimes I call it a posthumous perspective, depends on how I
20:33
feel today and who I'm talking to.
20:35
But like, yeah, trying to think about health, um, not as a condition
20:40
that I possess in my body, but as a condition that exists across systems.
20:46
And I'm speaking ecological systems, but we can't.
20:49
The food system, um, as you and I know very well is a socioecological system.
20:54
So it includes technology and it includes politics and policy and, and
21:01
social structures and all these other things that, that make it what it is.
21:04
The, the complicated, fascinating thing that it is.
21:08
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and the reason I kind of honed in on, on theory is,
21:13
and critical theory in particular is, is I'm certainly finding both
21:17
as I age, but also as I kind of encounter different cultures, younger
21:23
cultures, that theory is often scarce.
21:26
That, that the kind of thinking that theory enables is kind of scarce.
21:32
I, I think you and I grew up and kind of came of age in cultures
21:36
where it was in abundance, where there were lots of people engaging
21:40
with theory and playing with theory.
21:42
I say this because as a kind of transition to use like the microbiome as an example,
21:48
you know, on the one hand I find there are, there is a growing ecological
21:53
awareness for people outside of the body.
21:56
Like, you know, a hunter.
21:57
You can talk about the natural environment, a farmer you can
22:01
talk to about the ecological environment around their farm.
22:06
I have difficulty having conversations with those same people about the
22:10
microbiome that it, it, it is, it applies the same system principles,
22:16
kind of requires an abstract thinking, a theoretical apparatus to kind of
22:22
understand the concept of the microbiome.
22:26
I say that as a setup to do you explain the microbiome to people who are not
22:32
in your field or you're happen to be breaking bread with, and they're like,
22:36
Hey, what are you passionate about?
22:38
You're like, well, let me tell you about your colon.
22:40
How, how do you frame it in a way that is accessible but still maintains the
22:45
kind of the critical perspectives, the systems theory that you're bringing to it.
22:52
Sarah: I've been, I've been, um, asked by my children not to talk, uh,
22:57
not to proselytise anymore about the microbiome, because when I was first
23:01
starting to read this science, I, like, literally, it was during the pandemic.
23:07
And I, you know, was spending Friday night reading, um, reading scientific
23:11
papers, like learning as much as I could.
23:13
Like there was, it's like the most incredible, fascinating
23:15
thing in the whole world.
23:17
Um, and so the way I would, I, if I'm permitted or if my kids aren't around,
23:23
then I can tell somebody, um, that, um, that, that, well, I, I could say we're not
23:32
human because we live with many different microorganisms in our bodies that do,
23:40
that play all sorts of important roles.
23:43
Um, often through food.
23:46
Uh, our relationship with food such as, you know, synthesising, uh,
23:50
meta, metabolic meta metabolites that are like short chain fatty
23:54
acids that reduce inflammation to, um, enabling us to be nourished.
23:59
Um, uh, to, gosh, you know, there, there's the, the microbiome or mi gut microbiome
24:07
can, um, plays a role with the brain.
24:09
I don't do anything with the brain.
24:10
I have like, there's, there, you know, as a systems researcher, everything
24:14
is connected, but you have to, you have to put artificial boundaries
24:19
'cause it's absolutely impossible.
24:21
So, to, to learn about even practically one area.
24:26
So I think about plants and, and microbes, but, um, but yeah, the,
24:30
the, there's the gut brain axis.
24:32
There's the, I just learned about the other day.
24:34
The shoulder has a microbiome.
24:36
Our eyes have a microbiomes.
24:38
The, the lung has a microbiome.
24:40
Like we are just fundamentally microbial.
24:43
And as a food systems researcher, I look at, I, I tell them that.
24:48
And so what you eat, um, determines in part your, these, this community
24:54
that you live with, that plays this really important role for your health.
24:59
Jesse Hirsh: And so
25:00
Sarah: Does that answer your question?
25:01
Jesse Hirsh: Absolutely, absolutely.
25:03
And, and give, gimme a few examples and, and I mean that both on the
25:06
research level in terms of the, the, the types of questions or the types
25:11
of, you know, kind of increase now, now that you've been in infected
25:15
with this fascinating subject area.
25:18
You know, how are you playing with it?
25:19
What, what are the kinda research questions that you're,
25:22
you're trying to go, but then to, to the point of your kids?
25:26
assume this is affecting how you eat and how you think about food yourself,
25:32
because that is kind of the nature of theory that it ends up influencing action.
25:38
So again, to further unpack this concept of, of the microbiome and how you're
25:42
approaching it, give me a, a research example and give me a kind of, you
25:47
know, personal adaptation example.
25:51
Sarah: Okay, I have to just write down the three parts of that question.
25:55
So theory, um, and, um, eating and research itself.
26:01
Okay, I'm gonna go start with the research itself.
26:05
So for example, um, one area that I'm working on right now, well, I gave a
26:10
presentation recently on, was how was very practical public health focus.
26:15
'cause I'm in a school of public health.
26:17
And so I was like, even if you eat the, follow the Canada food guide,
26:24
'cause people who do ask me, my friends will say, oh, you know, what is it?
26:27
And they say, but I don't eat any ultra processed foods.
26:30
'cause we know ultra processed foods are generally bad for the microbiome.
26:34
And so what I say is, well, even if you follow the can of food guide, there
26:39
are all sorts of additives in your food that are damaging either to the
26:45
microbes themselves, to your mucosal lining of your, of your colon, which
26:50
is where the microbes live, or that, um, that, that synthesise the microbes.
26:56
Then take for example, zody, break them down and turn them into something
27:01
else, another, um, substance that kills other microbes in your, in your gut.
27:06
So, so if you eat many of the foods that are available to us at the supermarket,
27:13
you will, even if you're not eating, like something that we call that some
27:18
people would call, you know, unhealthy bad food, you can end up like carrageenan
27:22
that you'll find in, in half and half.
27:25
Uh, so you're, let's say that you're, you're, let's just talk about
27:28
breakfast Carin in your half and half goes in the coffee, uh, carrageenan,
27:34
no, you don't wanna eat that.
27:35
Um, you have carboxyl, methylcellulose in the muffin.
27:39
Uh, you, let's say you're going gluten free 'cause you think
27:41
that's gonna be better for you.
27:43
Well, it's gonna be made with carboxyl Methylcellulose probably that's
27:46
really not good for you either.
27:48
Um, and then, um, gosh, what else could you have?
27:52
Oh, and then maybe you have a bagel with some cream cheese or cottage cheese.
27:56
Let's put cottage cheese on the side that's gonna be full of emulsifiers
28:01
and, um, and other ingredients, preservatives that are also gonna
28:06
do a number on your gut microbiome.
28:08
So, so even when you're following the this, uh, can of food guide, you're
28:13
eating things that are damaging to your, to you and your communities of microbes.
28:19
And so how does this affect my, um, eating fundamentally?
28:23
Uh, because, uh, in terms of, uh, what we eat, we like.
28:29
It's been, there's been like radical changes and not just, luckily I'm not, I,
28:33
my whole family from my, like my parents to my, my sister's family, everybody eats
28:39
what we call in our family, the gut diet.
28:41
Um, and so we eat a lot of fibre because that's, that's in like fruits
28:46
and vegetables and beans and nuts and all these things because the microbes
28:49
break those, break those down, the, the fibres down and produce all sorts of
28:54
healthy metabolites for us with that.
28:56
So it has changed our eating for better or for for better, obviously sometimes.
29:01
Um, the, the younger folks would say for worse because they miss,
29:05
um, they, they, they know it's not like they don't believe it or know.
29:10
Like they, they are old enough.
29:11
They understand, but they miss, they miss a time when they didn't have to
29:16
know this, the burden of truth, which is that the food system produces all this
29:20
stuff that they shouldn't be eating.
29:23
And then in terms of theory, actually, because I've been reading Posthuman
29:27
theory, I was in a workshop yesterday and be, and they were talking about
29:32
how, um, you need to, to re your, you read theory and how you're constantly,
29:39
you need to be constantly reading.
29:41
And your understanding was like the way that the, the presenter
29:45
was describing it was like your understanding was constantly evolving.
29:48
And I really love that because it really ca it is true, your one's
29:52
understanding constantly evolves.
29:54
And so I've been reading Posthumus theory since, um, probably around
29:58
2015 when I was 2016, when I was in my first year of my PhD, um,
30:03
preparing for my comprehensive exam.
30:06
Um, and.
30:08
I, it's now like fused into the, to the way I think and even talk.
30:14
So, um, in Posthumanism we see other, other creatures than other
30:20
than humans, as, as be as doing things as participating and social
30:25
life and cultural life and politics.
30:27
And so I, I can't help but, but, but see the world animated by these things
30:34
that like, I can see for, you know, if I make pickles, someone says, I do
30:37
a lot of fermentation 'cause ferment.
30:39
It's good to eat fermented foods.
30:40
So I'll be like, someone will say, oh, your pickles are so good.
30:43
You, you made them.
30:44
No, I didn't make them.
30:45
The microbes made them and I'm not being cute.
30:47
Like, I, like, that's like literally theory, as you said, it really
30:50
shaped the way you see the world.
30:52
Or when I see the, uh, the government making the decision to increase the
30:58
highway, um, uh, increase highways, uh, across, um, agricultural lands in Toronto.
31:04
Like, I I, it is just so clear that, that this is damaging to
31:09
health and human health, right?
31:11
Like it's just the, the once you take the human out of the centre and you
31:18
decenter the human as they say, like it's, it is a different world that you see.
31:23
Now I really need to pause for a second and, and do this really important
31:27
thing, which is to acknowledge that this is not a new perspective,
31:32
like in Euro Western thought.
31:34
This idea that, um, that humans are not the centre of the universe,
31:38
um, might be something that is, feels new, but it is by no means.
31:44
And it like indigenous peoples here on Turtle Island in Abala, which
31:50
is the, um, an, uh, a name for South America, the Amer, the other
31:55
mari parts of the Americas, um, indigenous, uh, an indigenous name.
31:59
And then, uh, people's in on all continents, um, have
32:04
been thinking this way.
32:06
So it's, it's really important for people like me, um, to not to like, to
32:12
what we call Decolonize posthumanism and make sure that you really situate
32:16
the work that's done, um, by people like me in the context, um, and
32:21
in dialogue even with, um, other ways of knowing other philosophies
32:27
that are not Euro Western centric.
32:30
And this has done a lot, and particularly like great work out of Australia, they,
32:35
there's some like really interesting scholarship there where, um, where
32:42
settler scholars are working with indigenous, uh, communities and indigenous
32:45
scholars to really, to really, um, do amazing research and to that, that,
32:52
that animates our understanding of, of our, of relationships in the world.
32:58
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and you're correct in saying that it's not new, but I
33:02
think it is important in acknowledging that it's currently marginalised.
33:06
And, and I say this because it, it, it, my engagement with the sector is
33:14
discombobulating to me, for lack of a better phrase, because I am privy
33:20
to the kind of thinking and work that you do that Charles Lko does,
33:24
that a lot of the people who I've been around for decades have done.
33:29
And I don't see it acknowledged, I don't see it kind of part of the narrative
33:34
landscape that the sector addresses.
33:37
And to me, that's dysfunctional.
33:39
That's a mistake that there's a need to make sure, even for the
33:43
purposes of science, if not for the purposes of a better, more inclusive
33:48
food system, to make sure that all those voices and perspectives
33:52
are part of the policy process.
33:55
Our part of the debate process, and here's where I'll say, as an aside,
34:00
feel encouraged to go as radical and provocative as incendiary as possible
34:05
in the time that we have left.
34:07
But let me ask you a very pointed question and, and I do
34:10
wanna come back to the colon.
34:11
By the way, a lot of the guests that I've had on the show, a lot of the
34:17
voices, the leadership of the AgriFood sector demonize regulation, right?
34:24
To them regulation is one of the spectres that haunt their desire
34:32
for prosperity, for innovation, for being a better industry, a
34:37
better sector, a better society.
34:40
And I'm curious to hear your thoughts partly because on the one hand, I
34:45
assume you don't want to see them adding ingredients, like without any
34:50
testing, without any approval, without any knowledge into our food system.
34:55
But on the other hand, I suspect that you are suspicious of state power
35:00
and the way in which regulation can normalise things that may not be good.
35:05
I, I'm rambling.
35:07
I don't know where I'm going with this question other than to say you,
35:10
you clearly have a really sharp, well-informed, well-researched
35:15
critical perspective on the sector.
35:19
What role do you think regulation can play either in mitigating the
35:23
harms that you're addressing or in facilitating the kind of more inclusive
35:28
justice, sustainable food system that advocating for and working towards?
35:37
Sarah: Wow.
35:37
What a great way of, of, um.
35:41
Just painting that problem as in, you know, like we have, we need regulation
35:47
to be, to, that's what society provides us with right rules to keep
35:52
that we help each other, to keep us each other safe and, and, and well,
35:58
um, and, but then yet whose power, um, is reproduced through regulation.
36:05
Um, so when it comes to people saying they don't like regulation, I like, I I,
36:12
I would wonder if perhaps is that they don't like some regulations because,
36:19
because probably people wanna be able to, you know, turn on the tap and drink
36:23
water that's not going to give them dysentery or be have, uh, PFAS chemicals
36:31
in it, that's, that's gonna destroy your, your, your health or, um, breathe air
36:37
that gives you lung cancer or, um, or your food, you know, like knowing that
36:45
you can go to the store and buy food and that it's probably because of the,
36:50
the, uh, the food safety certification, it's very less likely to have like
36:56
e coli on your spinach, for example.
36:59
Not saying that that doesn't happen, we know it does, but Right.
37:01
That's, but that's exactly why there are these incredible complex systems
37:05
and like, frankly, I know I, I, I talk about, um, alternative food systems, but
37:11
when the more I study the, the mainstream industrial production that's like across
37:18
the globe that can bring spinach from, you know, thousands of kilometres away
37:23
and, and it's like clean and safe to eat and I can eat it, it's like true.
37:29
And it's fresh as in, it's not rotted and I can, I can eat This is truly
37:36
awe inspiring and, and incredible.
37:38
So, and that's because of regulation, right?
37:41
Like, it's like truly reg, like, you know, all the, how
37:44
it gets shipped, is it bonded?
37:46
Is it, does it, you know, what kind of permits does it have to travel through
37:50
this country to get to that country?
37:51
So, so I think like, people who say they don't like regulation, probably it's
37:58
because so much of the regulation that makes our lives as comfortable as they
38:02
are right now are, are invisible to us.
38:05
Like, that's part of us not, um, I, like I always say like the, the
38:08
government, the city government in particular, municipalities should
38:11
hire like a PR firm to tell people like, what is the, what is all this
38:16
policy and government actually do?
38:18
Like, do like your garbage gets taken away, you have clean water,
38:22
your toilet flushes, ev you know, generally like, wow, what a
38:25
privilege to live in much of Canada.
38:28
I recognise not everybody shares the same experiences across this country.
38:33
Um, so, so that's, you know, re we need regulation and we really need regulation.
38:39
As you said about ingredients in food that's not there.
38:43
So that's a really great example of like whose interests are ref, are, are
38:48
reproduced in the regulations around food.
38:51
Like the, um, for example, you could take two, um, two
38:56
examples of, uh, whipping cream.
38:59
I looked at this the other day and, and one was had, um, had ingredients that
39:05
I don't wanna put in my body in it.
39:07
Um, and the other had, uh, none of that.
39:12
And it was whipping cream, and it was the, the, the one that had none of it.
39:18
It's not more expensive.
39:20
In fact, it was like, I think it was even a little bit less expensive.
39:23
And furthermore, it was more, it was like 500 mils versus 475 mils.
39:28
Okay, so why is that, um, why is that additive?
39:32
I, I believe it was carrageenan in the, in one of the brands of whipping cream.
39:37
Well, that's because the, the, the corporation wants to, is, wants
39:41
to put it in because it helps them to maximise their profits.
39:45
Um, and it's not a health question.
39:47
It's not a, it's not a quality question.
39:49
I can, I can tell you that anybody who likes high quality, delicious stuff
39:54
is probably gonna be able to taste the difference between those two creams.
39:59
Um, and the one without the carrageenan is, is, uh, gonna taste better.
40:03
So the only, the, the, the one reason to put it in there is, is profit.
40:07
And that could have to do with mouthfeel.
40:10
It could also have, like, do people like the way it, it holds together,
40:14
um, over the time on the shelf.
40:16
But usually it's about ex like making sure we can sell something,
40:19
uh, with an extended shelf time.
40:20
And again, that comes back to profit.
40:22
So, so who's, who's interests are reflected in, in standards often
40:29
have to do with, um, moneymaking as opposed to what's best for, for health.
40:35
And I don't just mean human health.
40:37
I mean, we need to be thinking again, as we, as I've been saying across systems,
40:42
but ecological health because, because that food safety and, and often comes
40:47
up against, um, ecological health.
40:50
Like if you think of food, throwing out things or, um, or, you know, putting
40:55
plastic gloves on to make a, to make a, a sandwich, um, at a sandwich store,
41:02
uh, someone's putting on plastic gloves.
41:04
That's for food safety reasons.
41:06
Um, so now, now you're putting what a, an appearance of food safety versus
41:11
ecological health, which, uh, is also your health as a human being.
41:16
Uh, because those gloves are going in the garbage and they've been made
41:19
with, um, all sorts of resources are embedded in the making of them.
41:23
And also, I had a, a pH I have a PhD student who has a fascinating
41:27
PhD ex looking at gloves.
41:30
And I will just say that they are not the sterile gloves that, that
41:35
we think they, that they are.
41:36
And so that is, uh, we should stay tuned for this, uh, this, this wonderful, uh,
41:42
research because, um, often things, this is just, that's just yet another example
41:47
of things that you assume to be true.
41:49
When you actually look at, uh, look at them, they're,
41:52
they're not, they're not true.
41:54
Now I'm taking a little side of.
41:56
Jesse Hirsh: it, it goes back to my other point that if, if we, the sector.
41:59
Sarah: Actually, I just, can I just jump one thing?
42:02
Like that's the, that I'm gonna finish.
42:04
Sorry.
42:04
I just, that like, that's the brilliance of critical theory because
42:07
theory allows us to learn how what we know about the world and how we make
42:13
sense of the world is not natural.
42:16
It's, it's, it's produced by the, the way we were raised by, by how
42:23
we came to learn about the world, about by our culture, by our values.
42:27
All these things that make us who, who we are, help us to interpret the world
42:32
and understand and make sense of things.
42:34
So when we have critical theory, when we, when we read, um, when we read critical
42:38
theory and philosophy, we're like, we, we learn about how like different, different
42:44
things cause stigma and inequities and different people, um, have their power
42:51
is expressed in this way or that way.
42:53
And so I was, um, I, it would be wonderful if we all, I know we're,
42:57
we're moving towards a time where, you know, is anyone gonna read anymore?
43:01
If you can just put something into a AI reader and get the,
43:04
the bullet notes from it.
43:06
However, we're at a time where we need to be reading more.
43:09
We need to be engaging with these like centuries of ideas across
43:14
civilizations, um, to, to grapple with this very complex and troubling
43:20
time that we're living in right now.
43:22
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and I think that's the argument as to why I think the
43:26
sector needs to acknowledge and cease the marginalisation of critical voices.
43:32
Because to have dissenting voices, to have different voices, to have, to your point,
43:37
students who are going off in random directions that no one else would've
43:41
thought about, benefits all of us, even if you don't agree with the conclusions.
43:47
So let, let me throw another kinda advanced, difficult question at you.
43:53
'cause you clearly have, uh, uh, imbued the principles of public health into a
44:00
lot of your research, a lot of the way in which you approach, uh, some of the
44:05
challenges, some of the problems, some of the concepts that, that interest you.
44:10
I I think a lot of people can acknowledge that public health took quite a beating,
44:15
uh, at the hands of the conspiracists and the fascists, uh, uh, o over
44:20
the course of the last six years.
44:22
And at the same time, public health is ever more important.
44:27
Uh, we're watching an Ebola outbreak in the Congo, uh, uh, uh, become, uh,
44:32
incredibly dangerous and, and impactful.
44:36
How do you approach public health in a post institutional setting?
44:42
And I say this in the sense that I don't want to hear your thoughts
44:45
on what the Toronto or Ontario or Canada Public Health should, like.
44:49
What should a public health revolutionary be thinking about in the poly crisis
44:54
that we find ourselves in ourselves?
44:57
And I say this because the, the tragedy I was being reminded of when you were just
45:01
giving your last example was how, on the one hand, in, in the early days of the,
45:06
the, the COVID outbreak, people became obsessed with sterilising surfaces as if
45:13
sterilising surfaces would help them, but then they didn't bother wearing masks.
45:18
Once we started to understand that the virus was airborne and
45:22
yet sterilising surfaces, that's not so great for our biome.
45:26
Like again, there's so much nuance, so much complication to the way in
45:31
which this messaging has to play out.
45:35
Part of your brilliance is you do have a media background,
45:38
so you learn storytelling at a very early point in your career.
45:42
But how you conceive of public health in the conspiracy era, right?
45:47
How, how do you encourage your students or critically minded folks to play
45:53
public health the way others play public education when it comes to it?
45:58
At least you got your family eating fibre.
46:01
Uh, but, but how do we carry that forward in, in this social movement sort of sense?
46:08
Sarah: Oh my gosh.
46:09
It's like front row seat, um, to, uh, to, um, the, the, the information wars, right?
46:16
Public health, food health.
46:19
Like we, you know, the, um.
46:21
It's really exciting place to research and, and, and who and truth, right?
46:26
This like, in this post-truth world, what is true?
46:30
And I think that what part of the problem is that science, positivist
46:37
science, so we call positive science, the kind of science that emerged
46:40
in the, the Euro western world.
46:44
Um, and from starting, you know, back in the enlightenment that has like
46:47
a specific way of doing science or other sciences out there, but this
46:51
particular science that says, you know, there's one truth, um, we can, we can
46:56
find it if we measure and study it.
46:59
And, um, and once we do this investigation, we can figure out what
47:04
we can figure out what is the truth?
47:06
And our way, this scientific way is the, is the, the legitimate
47:10
way of producing knowledge.
47:12
And there, there's lots of people in the Western Academy and beyond that
47:18
have challenged this, including, of course, other ways of knowing that
47:21
challenge this, um, this, uh, these, the, this way of doing science that
47:26
claimed like we have the truth.
47:28
This is the truth, have been challenged by many, many, many, many, many scholars.
47:32
Um, um, so I'm just repeating what they're saying here, but this to me is the problem
47:38
now is that with this, this claim on the truth is not actually true, right?
47:43
Like there isn't there.
47:45
It's more complicated than there just being something, one thing that we
47:49
can measure, like the COVID pandemic is a perfect example, as you said.
47:53
You know, like sometimes you don't know and sometimes many things are
47:57
true, um, and that are complicated and really hard to understand.
48:02
Um, and I don't mean hard for the public to understand, I mean hard for the people
48:06
who are doing the research to understand.
48:09
Um, and so the, the idea that there's only one right answer, um, I think
48:15
has an, has contributed to this like massive alienation from, from science
48:20
and public health and that part of the solution, like, I mean, this is just
48:25
such a massive problem that so that so many people are thinking about.
48:29
But part of the solution, I think in, in my little way, has to do
48:33
with recognising, um, that there are different ways of producing knowledge
48:40
beyond this one particular way.
48:42
Now that does not mean that, um, I am saying that, that like, that I'm
48:47
anti-vaccine for a, for example, like there's certain things that
48:50
are factually inaccurate, right?
48:52
Like a vaccine does not cause, uh, that the MMR vaccine does
48:57
not cause autism full stop.
48:59
That's not, this is not about, um, this is not about, uh, valuing,
49:04
you know, different perspectives.
49:07
No, there's like, some things are true, some things are false.
49:10
Um, but, but, um, what this, what I think is important to make it through this
49:16
complicated, um, post-truth world is.
49:20
Is figuring out a way for, to validate different ways of coming,
49:25
to understand what is what is true.
49:30
Jesse Hirsh: And uh, and this is a
49:32
Sarah: So for me that would be like, mm-hmm.
49:36
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and and let me take a brief tangent 'cause I am
49:38
conscious that we're almost outta time.
49:41
How do we get journalists to adopt what you just said?
49:45
And I say this 'cause I know a lot of people who have worked in journalism who
49:49
have come to the conclusion you have, but I still regularly encount people who
49:56
are in power in the media and cultural industries who still arrogantly, assert
50:03
the opposite of what you just described.
50:05
I assume you encounter these people as well.
50:09
How do you handle that conflict?
50:14
Sarah: You know what?
50:15
I live in a, sometimes a bit of a bubble at the university, right?
50:19
So I'm not dealing with people too much who I have.
50:24
I I, I actually like when I do, 'cause I research with people, I'm as, I'm a social
50:29
scientist and I do research on teams with people who are, um, natural scientists
50:33
and do biomedical research also.
50:36
And so I research with people who have a different, um, perspective
50:41
who wouldn't share my same critique of this idea that there's, there
50:46
is a truth that can be measured.
50:47
Like I work with people like that all the time.
50:49
So, so, um, um, and usually that involves like, not asserting, um, my
50:59
perspective on them, interestingly.
51:01
But that's because this is a marginal also like within the academy, the,
51:05
the, this pers perspective in science, um, is not, is not as dominant,
51:12
um, as the, as this idea that, as a way like that that mainstream
51:17
medical research is, is, is done.
51:20
Um, so it's complicated.
51:24
It's actually, it's an interesting, it's a really interesting, uh, question.
51:27
Like how do you, how do you work with people really?
51:30
Like how do you work with people who have a different, um, fundamental
51:34
world views is really the question that we need to figure out, right?
51:38
As we become more, um, divided as we are right now.
51:45
Jesse Hirsh: Well,
51:46
Sarah: I'm sorry I don't have a good answer to that question.
51:48
Jesse Hirsh: No, that was a great answer.
51:49
And I, I, we, we are just about out of time, so this is where I say I have
51:54
to have you back on the podcast and let us address that exact question.
51:59
Uh, because collaboration is a very big buzzword in the AgriFood sector,
52:05
and I think there's an opportunity to kind of call people's bluff to
52:10
call the sector's bluff vis-a-vis the argument that I've been making today.
52:15
Uh, because I'm conscious that we literally only have a few minutes left.
52:19
I want to get to the last two questions that I try to ask every
52:23
guest and then ask you to answer them as, as quickly or succinctly as you
52:27
can with the knowledge that if you desire, you'll have the opportunity
52:30
to revisit this again in the future.
52:33
But are there any like policies, this, the question, usually the way I frame
52:37
it to people is I've just seized, uh, the Prime Minister's office.
52:40
I, I now have executive and legislative power.
52:44
Uh, what is the policy that you think would have the biggest impact in terms
52:49
of advancing some of the issues we've discussed today or, or the ones that are
52:52
most relevant to the AgriFood sector?
52:58
Sarah: Well.
52:59
Of my research that I haven't spoken about today has been on produce supply
53:03
chains and, and, um, specifically the Ontario Food Terminal, which is an example
53:09
of public food system infrastructure.
53:11
And so I think that the public is what we need to take with us,
53:18
um, now, uh, from, from different examples of food system models.
53:23
I think right now what we need are is public infrastructure at a time of
53:28
great corporate consolidation where you have, you know, increasingly large, uh,
53:32
companies that control more and more of different, all sorts of aspects of the
53:38
food system that we need to ensure that there's more, um, that, that the, that
53:44
there's more public good, um, possible.
53:46
And through that, I do believe that public food system infrastructure can do that.
53:50
So the Ontario Food Terminal is an example of that because it enables
53:54
a diversity of farmers and other businesses, retailers, a small micro and,
54:01
and mid-scale and even quite large to participate in the Canadian food economy.
54:07
And that, and our research has shown, it provides all sorts of goods such
54:11
as, um, you know, uh, um, enables, uh, more, you know, more regional farmers
54:18
to part, to, to have an outlet for their food, um, with more customers.
54:22
Uh, when we followed the food through the food terminal, we found
54:25
that in, in, um, neighbourhoods, they, people were buying actually
54:31
food that costs less from a certain sector of the, of the retail world.
54:37
Uh, like these micro sellers, it was actually costing less and it
54:41
was more culturally significant.
54:42
And I, when I was there, I witnessed other values of the food.
54:47
Like, we often think about price, which is super important, but there also other
54:52
values too, like, like, is the food that I'm purchasing, is it what I want to eat?
54:57
And, and other things too, like community.
54:59
Like for example, um, I I, one day I was doing an observation, um, you know, just
55:05
doing field work and at a, at a micro cellar in a social, um, housing complex.
55:11
And I was, I was, was gonna go buy some vegetables and then I
55:15
thought, oh, I made the offhand comment, oh, I can't buy today.
55:18
I forgot my wallet.
55:19
And a woman I didn't know turned to me and said, would you like
55:21
me to borrow, lend you money?
55:23
Like has, that's never happened to me at a major chain supermarket before.
55:27
Um, and so, you know, that just, I mean that's just one tiny anecdote,
55:32
but it speaks to what we saw, which was like another role that food and food
55:37
systems plays, which is supporting, supporting community and other values.
55:42
And that's where the public food system infrastructure comes in.
55:46
Because it could be a food terminal, it could be a public market.
55:49
The city of Toronto has passed, um, a policy to get more public
55:53
markets, one for every neighbourhood.
55:56
This is again, a way to have this, um, inclusion.
55:59
Um, in our food system.
56:01
And so that's why something, uh, you know, public if you, if, if you were, um,
56:07
making policy, that's what I'd ask for.
56:10
Uh, interestingly, this national food security strategy has
56:13
funded, um, uh, it seems two new food terminals and food hubs.
56:17
So we'll see what, um, how public these, these turn out to be.
56:22
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
56:23
And then the last question really is the shout outs.
56:26
This is, you know, not meant to be like the Academy Awards where you
56:29
list a whole bunch of names, but it, it's like the, what is the future?
56:32
It's like the gut response.
56:35
Who are the people you think we should be paying attention to that, you know,
56:39
maybe inspire you, peak your curiosity, or you just want to say, Hey, yeah,
56:43
you should check these folks out.
56:48
Sarah: Well, if I come back, I'm gonna come back with a list, a reading
56:52
list of wonderful things to read.
56:54
I can never remember off the top of my head, but there's so many people's books
56:59
that I've read and articles that are, that I've learned from and that I'm, that
57:04
I've just metabolised and reformulated, um, into what I've said today.
57:09
So that, that list is very long.
57:12
But, but in terms of as a, being a researcher, journalist versus now
57:16
an academic, I'll tell you, the research assistants I work with
57:19
have enabled me to do this research.
57:23
Like, and it's, we do this research together and they're students and
57:27
they work for me for a little bit, and then they graduate and they move on.
57:30
And I, and, and so they are the people that I would wanna recognise
57:34
the most because, um, we, that we had like five South Asian languages
57:39
spoken on our projects so far.
57:42
And, um, and, you know, they, they're coming up with solutions and
57:46
problems and questions that, that, and I learn from them all the time.
57:50
And I know that sounds corny and can, but it's true.
57:52
Like, working as in a team is like really fun and really exciting.
57:57
And that's, that's different than, than having written a book all by myself.
58:01
This is like a really a group effort.
58:04
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and shout out the labour that, that makes these things
58:07
possible, the way that the more people in the kitchen o often the greater meal.
58:11
I know you gotta go.
58:13
So thank you very much, Sarah.
58:15
This has been absolutely fantastic.
58:17
And to your point, we really only scratch the surface, so we,
58:21
we have to do this again soon.
58:23
In fact, I'm thinking about organising a panel, uh, of, uh,
58:27
radical food researchers, uh, with your friend Charles and some others.
58:31
So maybe that'll be the next opportunity to do so.
58:34
Thanks again.
58:37
Sarah: Thanks, Jesse.
58:41
That was really fun.
58:44
The good news is we did actually hold that food studies panel.
58:48
Uh, it was fantastic.
58:50
Expect it as an episode coming up in the weeks to come.
58:55
The bad news is Sarah wasn't able to make that panel, uh, which is unfortunate
59:01
'cause Sarah's perspective is fantastic.
59:04
I mean, on the one hand, you can judge a society based on how
59:08
it treats its most vulnerable.
59:10
On the other hand, you can judge an individual by what they choose to do
59:15
on a Friday night because the thing about Friday night is it's often when
59:20
we are most free or mostly religiously devout, depending on how you swing.
59:26
But to choose to study the microbiome, to spend your Friday nights reading
59:32
research about the bacteria that sustains us, that's exactly the
59:38
kind of curious individual that belongs in the future herd.
59:42
And Sarah's wide ranging critical perspective is again, exactly the kind
59:49
of knowledge and most importantly talent that the AgriFood sector requires.
59:55
So one of the reasons a moving forward, you're gonna hear from people like
59:59
her, but the other takeaway from the episode today was the role of theory.
1:00:06
I mean, not just critical theory.
1:00:08
Obviously those of us who are critical, like critical theory, but even if
1:00:13
criticism's not your thing, you still rely upon theory, a theory of farming, a theory
1:00:20
of markets, a theory of communication, a theory of soil, a theory of livestock,
1:00:27
a theory of which podcast to listen to.
1:00:31
Theory frames so much of our world, so much of our lives.
1:00:36
I'll give a shout out here to the podcast, why theory, WHY.
1:00:42
It's quite an interesting exercise, A little indulgent at
1:00:45
times, but a good literacy in terms of the rule of philosophy.
1:00:50
And that's also something I think that the future herd can contribute
1:00:54
to the larger AgriFood sector, not just the knowledge that we're
1:00:58
generating and distributing, not just the expertise that we're recognising
1:01:02
nor the talent that we're assembling.
1:01:06
No, it's also the theory, the literacy of theory and understanding
1:01:11
that theory governs everything.
1:01:13
So we should all be theorists.
1:01:15
We should all be thinking and criticising and understanding our systems in new ways.
1:01:21
That's a kind of literacy I think, that we can excel at here at the future herd and
1:01:27
facilitate amongst the sector as a whole.
1:01:30
Thanks again to Sarah Elton.
1:01:32
I do expect you'll be hearing more from her here on the
1:01:35
Future Herd, uh, uh, podcast.
1:01:37
And while we did take a bit of a break, uh, due to heat and a little bit of
1:01:42
holidays, we've got a bunch of episodes, uh, in the archive ready to drop.
1:01:48
Uh, so expect some real bangers, some really phenomenal stuff
1:01:53
in the days and weeks to come.
1:01:55
Okay, we'll talk to you soon.
1:01:56
Take care.