Latest / Project Podcast / How to work with purpose and find your motivation

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How to work with purpose and find your motivation · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
0:18
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:21
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:25
in this podcast. I'm speaking to Anne Marie
0:27
Purcell, C-Suite Advisor and Transformational Change and
0:30
Delivery and transport, Namim Latif, Technical Director of
0:34
Digital Solutions at WSP, and Glenn Kelly, Programme Manager
0:38
at Costar Live Lab, about a subject we've probably all
0:42
chewed over at some point or another that is finding purpose
0:46
and meaning in your work. It's something we picked up on
0:49
in the Summer 2025 issue of Project Journal and one we've
0:52
wanted to explore further. When I interviewed Karina Singh,
0:56
Director and Head of Government Project Delivery Profession at
0:59
NYSTA for Projects Begin to View in the same issue, she told me
1:03
that that sense of purpose that you're doing something not just
1:07
for the bottom line, but also for the bigger impact that you
1:10
can have. That's where you get your
1:12
motivation. So listen on for an exploration
1:15
of what it is about work and projects that get some project
1:18
professionals to leap out of bed in the morning.
1:21
Is it feeling part of a project that leaves the world a better
1:24
place? Is it about a sense of
1:25
achievement or fulfilment? Is it working with people?
1:29
Or is it the challenge of getting stuck into really knotty
1:32
problems and finding a way around them?
1:35
And if you do derive a strong sense of purpose, what benefits
1:38
does that bring to your own work and to your team?
1:42
We also hope to pass on some food for thought that can help
1:45
you reflect on your own sense of motivation and if you're lacking
1:48
a connection to the bigger picture, how you might attain
1:51
it. So I'd like to welcome everyone.
1:55
Perhaps we could spend a couple of minutes each of you just
1:58
introducing yourself, explain a bit about your job role and
2:01
responsibilities and maybe a bit about the projects you've worked
2:05
on recently or you're working on right now.
2:08
So sure, we begin. Let's begin with Namin.
2:11
Hi, Namin. Hi there.
2:13
Yes, so I may, as you mentioned, I'm working for WSP, it's a
2:17
global engineering firm and I'm a technical director of digital
2:20
solutions. So what does that mean?
2:23
I've got a team of digital consultants and we help projects
2:27
with programme management solutions, digitising anything
2:31
in their PMO. Personally, my background, I've
2:34
been working in major infrastructure projects for 25
2:37
years. So a lot in transport, mining,
2:40
energy, but all sorts of kind of governmental LED projects
2:44
mostly. I'm also interested in data and
2:47
AI. So outside of work, I'm in the
2:49
project data analytics task force.
2:50
So quite passionate about how we harness the power of data and AI
2:55
for good really. Actually, I'm going to sneak in
2:58
a question here, which is what? What got you into project
3:02
management and what do you enjoy about it in general?
3:07
So I fell into project management by mistake really.
3:10
My undergraduate degree was psychology, which is obviously,
3:13
well, it probably is quite related to project management
3:15
nowadays, but I didn't see the link back then.
3:18
So I didn't know what to do for a job.
3:20
I got a temporary job in Network Rail doing something called
3:23
possession planning. But really it was manipulating
3:26
Excel spreadsheets to make some nice visual outputs of where
3:29
what was happening on the railway.
3:31
And I got talking to the lead of the team who said, have you
3:35
considered becoming a project planner?
3:37
And I was like, no, what's a project planner?
3:39
So then I got into the world of planning engineering and it got
3:43
very technical quite quickly and I quite enjoyed it and was very
3:46
different from psychology. And I think I welcomed the
3:49
challenge. And then in doing that, I got
3:51
more into the programme management office, coordinating
3:53
major works. And then it was really just
3:56
around a project management career ladder, really.
3:59
OK, thank you. But what are you working on
4:00
right now? At the moment I'm working with
4:04
National Grid on their great grid upgrade programme.
4:07
So that's basically around decarbonizing the energy network
4:11
as a goal to do that within the next five years.
4:14
And it's connecting the wind power from Scotland through
4:17
subsea cables and then new infrastructure on land and
4:20
upgrading infrastructure, so pylons, substations, cabling.
4:25
But yeah, it's very exciting to be part of that.
4:28
That is a very big picture project for the country, so
4:32
we'll come back to that later. Thank you for that, Glenn.
4:35
Tell us a bit about you and the projects you're working where
4:38
you are right now. Hi, my name is Glenn Kelly.
4:41
I'm Programme Manager for Costar Live Lab based at the University
4:44
of York. So Costar is one of five
4:47
national R&D labs for the creative industries.
4:50
We were built following a £75 million investment from the Arts
4:55
and Humanities Research Council. It's the, it's the UK
4:57
government's largest ever investment into the creative
5:00
industries. And yeah, so I'm programme
5:03
manager here. We essentially our remit is to,
5:06
well, First off, we had to build the place, which was the sort of
5:09
first six months to a year of my role here.
5:12
And now we are running sort of business support programmes and
5:16
R&D funding calls to help businesses who would not usually
5:21
have access to the type of kit that's behind me to come and use
5:24
it, develop new IP, commercialise the IP and then go
5:27
on and bring bring income into the sector and create jobs off
5:31
the back of that. And which famous people have
5:33
come through the doors? So we're based at Production
5:37
Park, which is a little hidden gem in South Kirkby, just just
5:41
South of Pontefract. So, yeah, previous to this, I
5:45
was working in a rundown industrial chemical site in
5:48
Teesside. And now I'm I'm the rehearsal
5:52
space for the likes of The Rolling Stones and Beyoncé and
5:55
Jay-Z. So it's a bit of a bit of a
5:58
culture shock and a nice change. But yeah, it's it's, it's not a
6:04
really, really fun place to work.
6:06
OK. Thank you.
6:06
And previous to this, you were shortlist I think for one of the
6:10
APM awards for your network on the Net 0 initiative, is that
6:13
right? Yes, yeah.
6:15
So my background is in sort of the energy industry, nonprofit
6:19
and universities. So the project that I delivered
6:23
for Teesside is the Net 0 industry Innovation Centre,
6:26
which we completed in summer of 2023, which was a sort of really
6:31
high profile publicly funded innovation centre for net zero
6:35
technologies. We've got creating sustainable
6:37
energy solutions, So yeah, delivered that 2023, went into a
6:43
role in the energy industry off the back of that and then joined
6:45
Costar last year. And what was it about project
6:49
management that drew you to it? Similar to Namin, it wasn't, it
6:55
wasn't a planned route for me coming out of university.
6:58
I did study business management at university, went into the
7:03
more account management side of things initially in the early
7:05
stage of my career. And then in one role, the
7:09
project manager left and we basically got told that there
7:11
wouldn't be hiring a replacement.
7:12
And it was up to me to sort of take on that role.
7:15
And I think it's, it's, it's a common theme throughout project
7:18
and programme management. It's often something that people
7:20
fall into and think, actually, I really enjoy this or actually
7:23
I'm quite good at this. And then go on to sort of work
7:25
up that, up that ladder. And so that that was how I
7:29
landed in the space. OK.
7:31
Thanks, Glenn and Marie. Again, you're familiar to APM
7:35
Projects readers, probably because of your work on B
7:37
Network, but tell us a bit about your where you are right now and
7:41
and maybe a bit about B Network and how you got into project
7:45
management. Yeah.
7:47
So I'm Anne Marie Purcell and I most recently was Chief
7:50
Transformation Officer at Transport for Greater Manchester
7:53
and I was accountable for delivering the B network, which
7:57
is essentially the transport network in Manchester.
8:00
It's the first integrated transport network outside of
8:03
London. And my specific role was to make
8:06
sure that we delivered the nationalisation or the
8:08
franchising of the bus services. Manchester was the first in the
8:12
UK to take bus legislation from 2017 and take back control into
8:17
public control, the bus network from a deregulated market, which
8:21
had been like since 1986. And I was the first to lead on
8:25
that in the UK. And as a result, I'm now working
8:29
as an advisor to all the other combined.
8:32
Well, not all of the combined authorities.
8:34
I'm working quite a number of the combined authorities and
8:36
Wales as a country who are going down the same path.
8:39
So I'm currently working with South Yorkshire, W Midlands and
8:42
Wales, providing some advice into other local authorities and
8:47
combined authorities and some into the DfT departments of
8:50
transport. And I'm also providing more
8:54
strategic change advice to broader change because I'm not
8:57
just a transport specialist, I'm actually a transformational
9:00
change specialist who happens to have delivered a big transport
9:02
pro programme. How I got into the industry was
9:07
completely by accident. I, I started off with a fashion
9:11
degree and I dropped out because I couldn't afford it, ran a
9:14
nightclub, ran a bank, then ended up in Revenue and Customs
9:18
in VAT and then ended up on EVAC as a PMO support, which is where
9:23
you can put your VAT online. You never used to be able to do
9:24
that. There's always paper format.
9:26
Long time ago. I'm a bit old.
9:28
And, and then I ended up as a PMO support and then went
9:32
contracting, left Revenue and Customs because there was no
9:36
options of promotion revenue. I was with revenue customers
9:39
before when they were separated and when they merged and I went
9:42
contracting and I stayed like that for 12 years and slowly
9:44
built myself up to lead in large scale programmes.
9:49
And then the job before my C-Suite role was as an employee
9:52
for Unilever and I LED a global transformation team for the
9:57
comms service. So I LED their transformation of
10:01
their Wan, their wireless LAN, their team's voice with the team
10:05
in Bangalore and Brazil until the B Network came calling and
10:09
that's when I left to go and join that programme and ended up
10:13
as Chief Transformation Officer at TFGM.
10:16
OK, what a patchwork of projects you'll bring to the podcast.
10:20
That's that's really and you're all accidental project managers
10:23
as well that you start software. How interesting.
10:26
So what struck me about the project management profession
10:29
when I first came to it was I was actually really nicely
10:34
surprised at how motivated people seem to be and energise
10:39
that. If you think about the projects
10:41
you've worked on, the most successful ones, would you agree
10:45
that that that kind of peers and colleagues are motivated in
10:49
their work? Or is it just me as an outsider
10:51
noticing that? If you if you think about it, do
10:56
you feel as though you do work in teens and with people who do
10:59
generally tend to be motivated by the projects or that type of
11:02
work? Namin, what do you think?
11:07
Yeah, I think so. I think the type of people if
11:10
we're accidentally or not drawn to project management, we're
11:13
normally naturally quite organised and driven people.
11:16
And you know, project management is about delivering outcomes to
11:20
a particular set of time and and other kind of thresholds.
11:24
So that naturally pushes us to want to be driving it forward
11:28
all the time. And in doing that, you know, can
11:31
be working on pressurised environments.
11:33
So also under good leadership, we get a good culture.
11:38
And so we get to know our colleagues and peers so that we
11:41
can work with one another under pressure.
11:43
And I think it's that culture and that common purpose and also
11:47
our just our natural ability to be organised that's kind of
11:50
helped to drive these projects forward.
11:52
Certainly when I've interviewed some people they've spoken about
11:55
that there is is pressurised work often, but they get a buzz
11:59
from it. They're drawn to that kind of
12:02
having deadline driven work and that's part of the pleasure.
12:05
But I, I think I'm going to leap in and just ask you personally
12:09
what, what gives you a sense of purpose and meaning in your
12:13
work? What do you really love about
12:15
it? I think I've I've appreciated it
12:18
even more recently. You know, we've got the climate
12:20
emergency and what can we do? So if there's an opportunity to
12:24
blend that with what you're doing in your day job, it really
12:28
does give you that sense of purpose that right my project,
12:30
it's going to help to decarbonize the energy network
12:33
or I'm thinking about carbon impacts and how I can mitigate
12:37
those as part of my project management process if it's a if
12:40
it's a different sort of project.
12:41
So that definitely does chime with me.
12:44
And then a lot of the projects, aside from when they've been for
12:49
carbon reduction, some of the transport projects, it's really
12:53
about then giving back to society.
12:54
So we're creating a facility that enriches people's lives,
12:58
gives them something. So that for me has been a
13:01
massive driver and a lot of the projects I've been involved
13:03
with. Is that key to you, for the
13:05
roles you take that? Is that what draws you to them?
13:09
The idea of connecting to the bigger picture, doing something
13:12
for the greater good. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've because
13:15
I fell into transport, but then I enjoyed it.
13:17
And then I see the impact of when you deliver a new rail
13:20
service or you know what, whatever type of transport
13:23
service it is, you see the benefit to the public When the
13:26
other day I was, it's been very hot recently.
13:29
So I was travelling on the Crossrail and despite it being
13:32
late and all of that sort of thing, it's a fantastic service.
13:35
It really has improved people's lives, connecting different
13:38
parts of of the city together and kind of helping with
13:42
regeneration. So it does feel very good to to
13:45
keep being parts of those projects.
13:47
And maybe that's why I put myself forward for some of those
13:49
sorts of projects as well. Yeah, people have spoken to me
13:54
about that, actually, the physical legacy of a project.
13:56
Sometimes that you, it is a boss, it is getting on the
13:59
Elizabeth line or it's a building that you've been
14:01
involved with And the kind of almost showing the grandchildren
14:05
like this is what I did, This is what I helped put together.
14:08
That seems to be a nice thing to have.
14:12
Thank you. Namin Glenn, you work or have
14:17
you worked with a sort of particularly motivated bunch of
14:20
project professionals and where do you get your own sense of
14:23
purpose, the meaning in your work?
14:27
Yeah, I think, I think purpose is an individual thing and I can
14:31
only speak for myself, but I tend to feel more driven and
14:35
motivated when one, I'm enjoying the day-to-day work I'm doing.
14:39
It's interesting, it's varied, but also that I feel like I'm
14:43
competent and I'm providing value in my role.
14:46
So I think if you, if you've got those two boxes ticked off, you
14:49
know, I've been in roles where I felt capable and confident, but
14:53
maybe not necessarily enjoyed it.
14:54
And that's when the purpose started to drop in in the role.
14:58
I mean, currently, you know, there's a real tangible benefit
15:01
to the businesses we work with building sort of cutting edge
15:04
infrastructure and I'm enjoying the day-to-day variety.
15:08
So you know that that that's the reason behind for me.
15:12
My purpose comes from. Have you been good at
15:15
discovering what makes you tick and what what's enjoyable
15:19
through work? Is it?
15:20
And then you kind of follow your nose towards that.
15:24
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
15:25
And I think you only get that from trying out new things and
15:29
going into new industries and finding out different roles,
15:31
which, which I'm a big proponent of.
15:34
Don't settle until you find something that you do enjoy
15:38
getting up and, you know, doing every day because it's really
15:41
empty. It's a big part of your life and
15:43
it's important that you enjoy what you do.
15:45
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
15:47
Anne Marie, tell us, have you worked with a big a bunch of
15:50
motivated, highly motivated people?
15:52
And I'm saying a bit tongue in cheek because not every day is
15:54
like that and not everyone is motivated.
15:57
Or you might have a bad manager one time.
15:59
He doesn't, it doesn't help. But generally, if you look back
16:02
over your career so far, do you feel as though there has been
16:05
that kind of cohesive sense of purpose for some of the projects
16:08
you've worked on? Yeah.
16:10
I mean, obviously I've worked as part of teams and I've created
16:14
and LED teams and I think I'm going to be really honest, I
16:18
think being a project manager is in your DNAII don't actually, I
16:23
think you can train people, but to have that motivation to work
16:27
the the the times of day that we work.
16:30
I mean, I in March this year was the first time I had a break
16:33
without an e-mail or a meeting long night.
16:37
I think for the B Network, I was doing 1819 hour days on meetings
16:41
at 11:00 PM at night with my deputy overnight long for three
16:46
years. And I think it's in your, you've
16:49
got to have that in your DNA that you want to work like that
16:52
and you want pressure and you like deadlines.
16:54
You want to be the person who's up at 1:00 AM worrying about
16:57
what tomorrow's going to look like and how you're going to
16:58
deliver that problem. Because you know, if it's not in
17:01
your DNA, you're not going to be like that.
17:03
And that's not a criticism anyone.
17:05
There's not a criticism of some project managers I've met who
17:08
don't have that. But to be a really successful
17:12
project and programme manager, it's part of your DNA.
17:15
If I'm totally honest, it's part of your personality.
17:17
In the same way that I wouldn't suit being an accountant because
17:21
that would, that just doesn't suit me.
17:25
I think you agree. I think it's part of your DNA.
17:29
And I've and I generally build teams of people.
17:32
I've got groups of people who've worked with for years.
17:34
I mean, it was remarkable about the fact that somebody guy,
17:36
John, who I constantly take everywhere I go, I've known
17:40
since 2017 and he's worked on three amazing big pieces of work
17:43
with me. And there's others and I think
17:45
you find people they navigate towards each other when they're
17:48
good at successful, they want to be part of a successful team.
17:51
So people want to come and join me when I'm leading big teams.
17:53
And equally, I want to be part of teams with people who I know
17:56
are going to, who I trust, who I know we're going to get, pull it
17:59
all out when you need them to. Not going to give up.
18:01
They're not going to go over. They're not going to leave a
18:03
5:00 PM at night when they know there's a deadline just because
18:05
it's 5:00 PM. And it's a hard job.
18:08
And I think it requires people who've got that in tenacity,
18:12
grit, determination. And it's not for the faint
18:16
hearted. It also involves difficult
18:19
conflicts influencing stakeholders who don't want to
18:22
be influenced. You've got to have a knack of
18:23
smiling when you don't want to smile.
18:25
You've got to have a knack of women people slamming your fist
18:28
on the table when that's the most appropriate time and
18:31
building relationships, breaking relationships to rebuild them
18:34
sometimes. And it needs all of them skills
18:37
and it's not for the fantastic. It genuinely isn't.
18:41
If you want to get to really high levels in projects and
18:44
programme management, it is that.
18:46
And I've aged a lot and and I know I have because particularly
18:50
in the last three years and, and, but I love it.
18:53
I love every minute of it. And the reason why I chose
18:57
probably the B network and my purpose now is I am, I would
19:00
love to say that every project I've worked on, I, it was like
19:05
had meaning and it really mattered to me.
19:07
Well, that's just nonsense. I'm 46.
19:10
I mean, I had to go and do jobs that, OK, I'll deliver that
19:13
project. I'm not saying it wasn't
19:14
important and I didn't put all my all into it, but I can't say
19:17
it left a legacy or anything like that.
19:19
We just don't get to pick and choose like that.
19:21
We've got to take the salary. But I suppose I'm at a point in
19:24
my career now where I can, I absolutely can and I do choose
19:29
where I go and what I do. And fortunately I'm in that
19:32
position where I can afford to do that.
19:34
It's not the same for every project manager, but I genuinely
19:36
think if you've got grit and purpose and you want to deliver,
19:41
you'll deliver. You'll deliver it anyway, even
19:43
if it doesn't give you a purpose.
19:45
And that will lead on to something that delivers a
19:47
purpose. So for me, papers, delivering
19:50
papers, teams, good teams, is where I get out or get out a
19:54
minute really. I was just about to ask you, So
19:56
what gives you a sense of purpose that's working with high
19:58
performing teams to people? I, I, people really matter.
20:04
I mean, I love my teams. I build teams that I love
20:08
working with. And you know what, I sent a
20:10
message to someone quite important when I left TFGM and I
20:15
said in individually, every member of my team was high
20:19
performing, but collectively they were superhuman because
20:23
when one was down, the others were all you know, we delivered
20:26
over Christmas in 202526. We were in a port, a cabin for
20:30
six weeks. We were I'll, we had some people
20:33
off, we had some people in bed, we had floods, we had fog, we
20:36
had snow. And one day I looked around,
20:38
there was me and one other lad and everyone had gone down, but
20:40
he was there. And then everyone swung back
20:42
again after two weeks and we didn't want to let anyone down.
20:45
And that sense of a team driving towards something behind you or
20:51
in front of you if you're not leading it and being part of
20:54
that is just when it's works well.
20:58
It's like they are your family. They are who you go to bed
21:02
thinking about. They're who you wake up with
21:04
because you're actually with them more than you're with at
21:06
home to be honest. And I, I love all of them.
21:09
And I've got memories, individual members about all of
21:12
them as well as team memories. So yeah, the B Net was bloody
21:15
brilliant. I'm made-up with it.
21:16
I'm chuffed. A bit of driving.
21:17
I'm going to Manchester this afternoon.
21:18
I'll see it. I love it, but actually it's
21:21
them people who I've got for the rest of my life as well as that
21:24
and, and, and I love them. I love catching up with them and
21:27
seeing how they're getting on and making sure they're getting
21:28
where they need to get to. Yes, it's people for me.
21:31
OK, right. Well, I think you're very
21:34
motivated by people's side of things.
21:36
It seems that it's so nice to hear people talk about work in
21:39
such a positive way. No, Maine.
21:42
And Glenn, do you looking back over projects you've worked on
21:45
or working on right now, are there any particular times where
21:48
you've thought, Joe, I'm going to, well, not maybe not leaping
21:51
out of bed in the morning, but thinking I'm really looking
21:53
forward to today. Is there a part of the project
21:55
process that you love? Is that has there been a
21:57
particular project that has really spoken to your individual
22:01
sense of motivational purpose that that brings to mind?
22:06
I mean, I mean, it's cliche, but I think in project and programme
22:09
management in general, it's no two days the same.
22:11
And it's the variety that really makes me want to come in every
22:16
day. I mean, but in this role coming
22:18
up just over a year and then, you know, since, since I
22:22
arrived, I've been involved in everything from sort of
22:25
commercial negotiations to contract and legal issues to
22:28
construction recruitment and then event management and, you
22:32
know, day-to-day operations. And it, it really is that that
22:36
variety that keeps me coming back from odds.
22:39
It's and again, like, like Anne Marie was saying, when it's,
22:42
when you're really busy and you're working all hours under
22:44
the sun, I feel like I really enjoy the sense of camaraderie
22:48
that you develop with the team that you're working with.
22:50
And also that sort of mix of chaos and structure.
22:54
I find it weirdly satisfying. So that's that's me.
23:00
As an outsider, it sounds as though it's, you know, like
23:02
think partly thinking on your feet as well and that problem
23:05
solving and like, let's, let's solve, let's solve this
23:08
collaboratively. So it's a lot about the people
23:12
side of projects, which is really nice to hear.
23:15
Namin, has there been anything that has jumped out at you over
23:19
your career that you that has really meant something to you or
23:21
has given you a real sense of purpose or just a buzz and
23:24
thought I would you know what I love my job.
23:25
I. Mean.
23:27
I think it is that that infectious enthusiasm and, you
23:32
know, having great leaders or you might be the leader yourself
23:35
and being able to set that, that kind of culture in the team that
23:39
OK, it's difficult, but everyone's going to pull
23:41
together and make it work. So I had an example earlier in
23:44
my career where we were working on the West Coast route
23:47
modernization. It was going badly wrong.
23:49
There's all kinds of problems with, you know, accidents on the
23:52
railway. And we had this, we were kind of
23:54
given a window to sort it out and everyone got together.
23:58
I think we, we kind of all started working in crew and we
24:01
were coming from all over the country and we just kind of
24:04
almost locked ourselves in, in a hotel for about three weeks.
24:08
And we came up with a very well coordinated plan across various
24:12
different people of how we're going to bring it back on time.
24:15
And, you know, we had the ministerial eyes on us.
24:17
So it was pressurised, but there was a real enthusiasm to get it
24:22
done. There was no blame.
24:23
It was like, let's bring the best minds together to solve
24:26
this. And, and it was very empowering.
24:28
And we actually did manage to deliver what we planned in those
24:31
three weeks. So, you know, that was amazing.
24:33
And it, it did kind of bring home, OK, there can be
24:36
challenges and adversities, but with the right people, the right
24:39
attitude, the right leadership, we can, we can achieve a lot of
24:42
things. How wonderful.
24:45
I'm going to. I just want to pick you up, pick
24:47
up on that because I'm now thinking of listeners who
24:51
perhaps aren't very experienced project managers or team
24:54
leaders. Is there any advice you could
24:58
pass on about managers, project managers, or leaders who've been
25:02
particularly good at giving a sense of purpose or motivation
25:05
to a team? Are they kind of do's and
25:07
don'ts? If you've noticed either as a
25:09
manager or leader yourself or having worked under people that
25:13
you've thought have done it particularly well, any any tips
25:16
you could pass on about creating that sense of purpose or
25:19
motivation that you did want to pass on?
25:23
Once somebody want in my team said to me, well, two people
25:26
have said that to me over over time and probably a few other
25:28
people have said it as well, is that I know when to be above
25:32
managing the people above me. But I know when to drop down and
25:36
help the team and roll my sleeves up.
25:39
And I think I've done every job in in projects and PMO so well,
25:44
I say every job, pretty much every job.
25:46
And therefore I know how tough them up.
25:48
They all are. I've gone from the bottom to the
25:50
top. I haven't kind of just jumped at
25:51
the top. And for me, I think being
25:55
prepared to roll your sleeves up if you're a leader and being
25:58
amongst it all is really, really key.
26:01
You know, I, I have my high vis on my beanie for six weeks.
26:04
I was there at 6:00 AM in the freezing cold.
26:06
I've done it. I've been a wastewater treatment
26:08
sites which were particularly unpleasant.
26:10
I've done, I've been there. I've, you know, be prepared to
26:14
roll your sleeve up and dig deep in with your team.
26:17
Don't just float above them. You know, I think that is a
26:20
motivation factor. And a few people have said to
26:22
me, when you drop down, we we drop, we lift up.
26:26
Do you know what I mean? So when you drop into the
26:28
details, sometimes, not all the time, that's not particularly
26:30
helpful as you're a leader, you need to empower people.
26:33
But when they need you and you drop down, they said, and I was
26:36
in the thick of it, I lifted them up.
26:39
And I think, I think, I think that's really important.
26:43
But equally knowing when to drop down and when not to, when to
26:46
empower and let people get on with the job and come to you
26:48
when they've got a problem. But I think being prepared to
26:51
roll your sleeves up and being amongst people when it, when I
26:55
was going to swear, then when it isn't a fan is really empowering
26:59
for people seeing leaders. And if you want to be somebody
27:03
who wants to lead a team of project management, you need to
27:06
remember that you've got to do all the jobs.
27:08
You've got to understand it so that you can help advise and
27:11
support people and to get people motivated.
27:15
Being prepared to roll your sleeves up is for me a
27:18
fundamental part of being a leader and try and motivating
27:22
people and showing them that you're willing to do.
27:24
I have this saying, if the most important thing for me to do
27:26
today is make the cup of tea to get this project delivered, I
27:30
might be the most senior person in the room.
27:32
But if that's the most important thing is to buy people a cup of
27:35
tea and that will trigger a wave of delivery, then I'll do it.
27:39
I'm not pressured. I don't care making the cup of
27:40
tea or cleaning the toilet or whatever it is and whether I've
27:44
got a chief transformation officer job title or I've not.
27:46
If the priority for me is to clean a bus, which I've done,
27:51
then that's what I'll do. Because if that needs to be done
27:53
today to get that bus going, then that's what I'll do.
27:56
And I think as a leader, if you can show that ability to scale
27:59
up and down that ladder and be at the right place at the right
28:02
time, you'll motivate people. OK, that's great.
28:04
And that's probably something that only comes through
28:06
experience, so and. A little.
28:09
And being confident to say, you know, I really have to do this
28:12
seeing really very important piece of work.
28:14
But I'm going to go and buy a cup of tea because that'll take
28:17
two minutes and that'll lift people's spirits.
28:19
So I guess it's trusting your own judgement as well, like on
28:23
the human side of things. Glenn, I can see you nodding
28:26
your head there. What?
28:28
What advice would you pass on or have there been leaders that
28:31
have written that you've thought, Joe, I'm going to steal
28:34
what they do because that works and I'm going to you put that in
28:37
my repertoire of project management tools.
28:41
I think you touched on it actually, Emma, in the editors
28:45
letter of this issue of Projects where you mentioned about
28:48
zooming out and seeing the bigger picture.
28:50
Thank you. So people actually read that.
28:52
I have. That's my, that's my day.
28:58
Thank you. Round point for Glenny and I
29:00
think Glenn. No, I'm a, I'm a fan of the
29:05
project issue and it's nothing to do with the fact that I'm in
29:07
this this quarter's issue. Every.
29:10
Every time they come out. But yeah, I think that that's an
29:15
important point for me about a project and a programme
29:17
manager's job is often to make the implicit explicit.
29:20
And that sometimes can mean, you know, consistently zooming out,
29:23
reminding people of what we're doing, why we're doing it, and
29:27
equally, you know, making sure it's absolutely abundantly clear
29:31
that this is the overarching goal.
29:33
This is what we're delivering. And this is what you as an
29:35
individual are responsible for as part of working towards that
29:38
sort of North Star. And just making sure, you know,
29:41
you communicate clearly and often expectations and making
29:46
sure everyone's, you know, we're on the same boat, working on the
29:48
same goal. And I find that's really helpful
29:50
in terms of leadership and giving purpose to to your team.
29:55
Thanks, Glenn. I mean, what have you picked up?
29:58
What What kind of valuable bits of advice would you like to pass
30:02
on that you've picked up over your career?
30:07
Echoing everything that's been said already about, you know,
30:09
why we hear the vision what everyone's going to do something
30:13
around Also rewarding, rewarding people for when when there's
30:17
good work as a team, as individuals.
30:20
And then as we know, things don't go to plan on projects.
30:22
So it's really around capturing that early as a as a learning
30:27
point and not a stick. So, you know, I've seen some
30:31
culture project cultures where it's been a bit tough than that,
30:33
you know, maybe behind on, on the schedule or the cost, but
30:37
really it will be, can we turn that into an opportunity?
30:40
What, what are the ideas that the team has collectively to do
30:43
something different? And I think that's, that's the
30:46
leadership quality to kind of not blame the team and to kind
30:48
of keep, keep it upbeat and positive.
30:51
So some of the best programmes I've worked on and I've worked
30:54
on ones which are not been going brilliantly, like Crossrail, for
30:57
example, it was the leadership and it was that ability to
31:00
transform and say, this is where we're at, There's some things
31:04
out of our control. What are we going to do next?
31:06
And then also just going again back to the personal bit.
31:09
So just making sure that you know everyone on the team, it's
31:13
not possible sometimes on very big teams of making sure that
31:16
the structure is there, that everyone gets, you know, the
31:20
right amount of time with whoever their leader is on the
31:22
programme. Yeah, and I you just making me
31:27
think of an interview I did with it was a really senior person at
31:32
NASA who was responsible for the James Webb Space Telescope.
31:38
And I thought before I interviewed him, he's going to
31:42
be a very serious man. I mean, he's in control of this,
31:45
this, you know, project programme, which is worth
31:49
billions of dollars and, you know, a space programme.
31:52
And he, he said the, the most important thing for him was
31:56
having a sense of humour and having a laugh with the team.
32:00
And it, and it makes you think, doesn't it like if you want a
32:03
team to have that psychological safety or no blame culture, that
32:07
you've got to have a bit of that somewhere.
32:10
I think I'm really interested in the mean that you've worked in
32:12
teams. So that actually does happen.
32:16
Like it's easier said than done it.
32:19
How do you make that happen on the team?
32:21
That idea of people being able to speak up or speak the truth
32:25
and and go beyond the blame game, is there anything that
32:30
that works? Is it about role modelling that
32:33
behaviour for example? It is, it is.
32:37
I'm far too bloody honest. If I'm totally honest.
32:39
I'm like the person who tells people what they don't want to
32:42
ear and you know, and and that's up as well as sometimes down
32:48
more often up than it is down, if I'm totally honest.
32:50
And I think I think there's a, you know, being just be having a
32:54
level of integrity and in true to yourself.
32:58
I think people like I am a terrible swearer.
33:01
I mean, I'm absolutely atrocious and you know, I don't hide from
33:05
who I am. I'm a a blonde Scouse woman
33:09
who's kicking backside to try and get stuff delivered.
33:13
And I am unashamedly that person.
33:16
Do you know what I mean? And I've got to the age where
33:19
that matters to me, that I have integrity.
33:22
When people speak to me, they know what I'm saying is
33:25
truthful. And if I say I'm going to do
33:27
something, I'm going to do it because I'm just who I am.
33:30
And over the years I've thought, you know, if I spoke a bit
33:33
posture, if I toned the swearing down, if I wasn't as bombastic
33:37
and forceful and said what I think, it probably would have
33:40
done my career better. But people see through that.
33:43
And you can only keep that act up for so long.
33:46
And actually, you know, I believe I've got, I've got where
33:49
I've got and, and I've, that's because people, you know, liked
33:54
working with me and trusted me and wanted to work with me and
33:57
then thought I got good people working with me because I've got
34:00
a really good there. I like having a laugh.
34:02
Do you know what I mean? I like having a bit of a skirt,
34:04
a bit of banter. I, I, I enjoy that.
34:06
You've got to have that in these.
34:07
We work in really high pressure jobs.
34:10
The you're on a fine line where people are at a point of
34:13
overstressed. And if you don't have something
34:16
that pops that and just makes a laugh at the end of the day or
34:20
cuts through a really difficult, stressful meeting, cuts through
34:23
it and calms everyone down, then the stress is going to pop all
34:27
over the place. And I think so.
34:29
I think for me, integrity be you, your heart, because people
34:33
warm to people who they think they know.
34:35
They don't warm to people they don't do things for people they
34:38
don't know. They do things for people who
34:40
they love. I mean, my team often said to
34:41
me, we didn't do this for other people, we did it for you.
34:43
We didn't get up at 5:00 in the morning.
34:45
We did it for you because they liked working with me.
34:48
But I think secondly as well, having that moment of levity and
34:53
humour when, when people are working at really high levels of
34:57
stress tolerance is really, really important to know when to
35:00
have a joke to lighten the mood. I think at all level, we're
35:05
working at really levels of stress and people are very tired
35:08
as well. So the ability for people to
35:10
just, it's a very fine line between the man then coping to
35:14
being on that other line. And you constantly happen to
35:17
manage that. And, and I think that's where
35:19
humour, integrity and honesty is really, really important, to be
35:23
honest, to make sure your team are OK.
35:25
Thank you. I mean, I mean, I was just, I
35:28
think about when you said you spent three weeks in a hotel in
35:31
Crewe trying to solve this problem.
35:33
And I was like, there's no getting away from anything
35:35
there. Like maybe not necessarily
35:37
thinking about that, but other other projects or situations
35:40
you've been in what, what has been that galvanising thing that
35:45
gets the team to get want to get stuff done and go the ex.
35:50
I think it all comes to going the extra mile, right?
35:52
If you're if you feel invested in a project and listen to and
35:56
and any thoughts around that. It's, it's normally there'll,
36:02
there'll be some kind of major decision point or gateway or, or
36:06
something critical on that project which you all have to
36:10
work to, you know, together to achieve it.
36:12
And then there might be a sequence of who needs to do what
36:15
when and then somebody needs to review it.
36:17
So it's really that leadership of all those people delivering
36:21
the bits and how they come together.
36:24
And you know, we're all here because we want to do a good
36:26
job. So it does come back to, as
36:29
everyone's been saying around the culture, creating that
36:33
ability for everyone to work in a respectful environment.
36:37
If something's not working, to have that, you know, ability to
36:40
feel empowered to speak up and say, no, I think we need to do
36:43
this or we're going to have to move that milestone.
36:45
Sometimes people want to just slavishly deliver to a date and
36:48
it's not a good idea. So it's about having that space,
36:51
open safe space to to raise to raise those.
36:54
And I do think that culture is often set by the from the top
36:58
and the leader and kind of creating that empowering, you
37:01
know, open door environment. So some of the best ones I've
37:04
people I work with, they they've been very available to any
37:07
member of staff. There's no hierarchical thing
37:09
going on, and that's really worked well.
37:12
So it's really, really good piece of advice, Glenn, anything
37:16
you'd like to add I. Agree with everything I'm
37:19
Marine, Noreen had just said. Yeah, again, it's I really enjoy
37:24
building a culture. We've, we've on three new staff
37:27
at Live Lab in the past few months and it's been an
37:30
enjoyable process sort of setting that culture,
37:32
communicating our values. And then I think, yeah, that
37:36
that flat hierarchical hierarchical structure is is
37:40
effective in in my view. So what I'd like to ask is, is
37:48
for any tips or advice for people who aren't feeling
37:50
motivated in their team or for leaders or managers who have
37:55
detected maybe they've inherited A-Team or maybe the team has had
37:58
a big set back to the project and you need to pick yourself up
38:02
and carry on and kind of re engage with it.
38:05
Has has anyone got any any bits of advice that you you wish
38:09
you'd know when you were starting out or that you just
38:11
like to pass on to to us? I mean, I'll go on that.
38:16
I, I tend to look inside myself now.
38:18
I didn't do it very much when I was younger because I'd probably
38:21
be a bit defensive, but try to kind of investigate what it is
38:26
or maybe even try and have a coaching conversation with a
38:28
colleague if if they'll be wanting to talk to me.
38:30
But understand what it is I enjoy about work.
38:34
And it might not be that project, but just in general as
38:36
a person, what what motivates me as an individual.
38:40
So again, not work, but just as a person outside of work and try
38:43
to understand if I get that from my job and then be very kind of
38:48
just be very strict with myself. And if I'm not getting that from
38:50
my job or the culture is not good, have a look for another
38:53
opportunity. Sometimes it does come down to
38:55
that if it's really making you unhappy.
38:58
So that's quite often. It's a good place to start and
39:00
look within yourself before you look to what's wrong with the
39:03
project. The bit of advice I will give,
39:06
if I'm totally honest, is every opportunity that gets put in
39:10
front of you is an opportunity to learn about yourself and what
39:13
you want to do and what you don't want to do, what you like,
39:15
what you don't want to like. And I'd say to my kids, just
39:18
keep moving forward, put one step in front of the other and
39:20
you'll find out what you want to be.
39:22
No one knows what they want to be.
39:23
No one knows what type of projects that they want to work
39:25
on until they've tried all different projects.
39:27
So having a bit of a span is good.
39:29
And then to take what you're working on and go, you know
39:33
what, it might not be exactly what we want to work on.
39:35
What can I get out of it? And I think it's lovely when
39:39
there's projects with papers for greater good.
39:42
So that's if everyone could work on one of them every day of the
39:44
week, we'd be all made-up. Sometimes we have to acknowledge
39:47
that some be a little bit selfish.
39:49
So what am I going to get out of this for my career?
39:52
There's nothing wrong with that like that.
39:54
You know, if you're going to be working 18 hour days, why
39:56
shouldn't you get something out of that for your career?
39:58
That doesn't mean the bigger rate of good doesn't matter.
40:02
But where that doesn't exist, or even where it does exist, it's
40:05
OK to say where does this take me next in my career?
40:09
And to sometimes when there isn't a purpose that you.
40:12
Can get behind in terms of the project you're delivering.
40:15
Create a purpose for your career that that project teaches you
40:19
something or or provide you with a skill that you didn't have.
40:23
Seek out them things in the project.
40:26
Learn stuff. Learn equally what you may be
40:28
not so good at as much as you are good at.
40:31
For me, I think use it to the point of learning about yourself
40:35
and what you want to do and where you want to go with your
40:37
career and use it as a stepping stone for your career even if it
40:41
hasn't got a bigger purpose. And that in itself will get get
40:44
you motivated and out of bed and driven and look for that within
40:47
your other. And it's supposed broader.
40:49
Look for that in the team. Look for that bigger picture
40:52
that Glenn was mentioning. Try and see the bigger picture,
40:55
not just not just for the company or whatever it is that
40:58
you're working on, but for yourself and your career and
41:00
your team. I think, I think for me, that's
41:03
it. Just try and find all the
41:04
meaning in it than just what the outcome of that particular
41:08
project is, I think is really important because there's
41:11
meaning in everything. You've just got to find it,
41:13
really. Thank you that chances I I I
41:19
tried to put together some tips for people in the feature that
41:22
we had in the summer issue about finding meaning, but that was
41:26
it. Yeah.
41:26
What what do you, what can you get from it as an individual?
41:30
If you're not particularly connecting to the project or as
41:33
a project manager leader, how do you give people that sense of
41:37
individual buy in to the project?
41:39
So as going going you were saying before you kind of set
41:42
out like this is your role on a project and this is how you're
41:45
helping helping it happen. So I think that's that's really
41:49
key. Was there anything else then you
41:51
wanted to add before we kind of wrap wrap up?
41:54
I agree with the previous points about on an individual level.
41:57
I think on a a lead leadership and management level, it comes
42:03
down to how how well you communicate and get to know each
42:06
member of your team. It's happening in the past
42:10
multiple times where a staff, a member of the team might not be
42:13
as motivated or just be disinterested.
42:16
And that's why I think it's important to build those
42:18
relationships early. Understand what makes them take,
42:21
what their experiences, what their strengths are, and perhaps
42:24
where their weaknesses are. And then make sure you give them
42:28
tasks and problems to solve that line up perfectly with their
42:32
experience and interests. And you know, don't be afraid to
42:36
give ownership of stuff to to members of your team and say,
42:39
you know, here's the problem to solve.
42:40
It lines up in your experience. And I feel like that can be very
42:43
motivating for a team, for a team member.
42:46
And it's again, just building those relationships.
42:50
I just, I want to work with all of you now you're all hired.
42:57
Thank you. What project have you got?
42:59
I've got project. Project is my project.
43:04
I think a nice way to wrap up actually would be is there one
43:07
thing you're taking away from this discussion?
43:09
Is there one thing that this has made you think about or go back
43:13
to your work? When When we finish recording in
43:15
a minute, Glenn. Yeah, I think it's, it just
43:20
demonstrates how important purposes, I think when you're in
43:24
the, in the, in the depths of a big important project and you
43:30
know, you're up against paid deadlines like we've been here.
43:33
I think purpose can give you and the team stamina if you're all
43:37
working towards a shared goal. And it's, it feels like it's
43:42
getting closer and closer. Like when we were building the
43:46
the Live Lab over Christmas last year, we were, you know, we had
43:50
a launch event in February where we had sort of government
43:52
ministers coming down. We had, you know, artists
43:55
performing and we had like a few weeks to get everything fitted
43:59
out and finished. And there was very, you know, a
44:03
lot of late nights and Domino's deliveries into the lab, but
44:06
like 11:00 while we were cabling speakers up and stuff.
44:09
But, you know, for me, the whole reason that delivered and went
44:13
well was because everyone had that purpose and it gave us the
44:16
energy to keep pushing through and, you know, made the made the
44:20
launch event a success. So yeah.
44:24
That's, that's I'm sorry, I forgot to ask all of you, what
44:26
are the benefits that having a sense of motivation and purpose?
44:29
But I mean, it's kind of self-explanatory or just going
44:32
what you just said about going the extra mile, keeping people
44:35
engaged and getting it done and feeling that sense of
44:39
achievement and reward once you've done it, even though
44:41
you're kind of knackered and maybe put on a stone after
44:44
eating loads of pizza and but it makes it worth it and enjoyable.
44:52
No, no, I mean any kind of final thoughts.
44:54
Is this made you prompted any kind of bigger thoughts for you?
44:58
Is anything struck you about the conversation we've had or
45:00
anything that you'd like listeners to go away with if
45:03
there was just one thing for them to think about?
45:07
But I think it's, it's been great listening to all the
45:09
different points of view and it just kind of reinforces, it's
45:12
always really important on busy projects to take a moment to
45:15
pause, stop and reflect on them. Just on the connective efforts
45:20
been put in and things that have been achieved and and to kind of
45:24
stop and thank everybody for contributions really because I
45:27
think we can just get so busy delivering sometimes some of
45:30
those kind of more personal touches are not not always there
45:34
and they're very important. That's that's yeah, really
45:38
valuable piece of advice. Just taking that time to stop I
45:43
think about what you've achieved and to reflect on it is really
45:46
important. Anne Marie, anything that you'd
45:50
like to finish with? I agree with Glenn about the
45:53
purpose thing. I think clearly shows the
45:55
purpose matters. I think I think purpose also
45:59
comes from a team. What I've heard a lot on this
46:01
conversation is about people and the people give you purpose.
46:04
So that's helpful when you've got a big legacy to leave.
46:07
And then late night or equally if you've got a project that
46:10
you're not that bothered about and it's not really giving you
46:12
that sense of purpose, you can find purpose in the people that
46:15
you work with. And I think that matters.
46:18
And the final thing I'd like to say is I don't think project
46:21
management as a career gets enough St cred and enough, you
46:24
know, I genuinely think people think which some of us are just
46:28
adamant people. And I, I can tell around this
46:31
room and I'm really passionate for what we do and I will
46:34
champion it all the way to the hill because it brings together
46:37
people from all walks of life who want to get stuff delivered
46:42
and deliver outcomes. And whether that's for companies
46:44
or for the wider world, which had benefits like some of us are
46:47
working on or, or and other people are working on, we are
46:50
superstars. We work long nights, we work
46:53
damn hard, we put up with pressure and we put up with
46:55
challenge and we're always rocking up.
46:57
And I think the world of work would not and the world of the
47:01
world wouldn't be in as good a place as it is if there wasn't
47:04
for for people who are prepared to leap out of bed to just hit a
47:08
deadline sometimes. Which I think is what I think
47:11
makes project managers and whatever type of person you are,
47:14
programme manager, project manager, whatever, wherever you
47:16
fall in the career of project management, we are a great bunch
47:21
of people to have on your team to get stuff done personally.
47:24
So that's what I would say. Don't underestimate me.
47:28
That is such a perfect way to end this podcast, and I haven't
47:31
paid you to say that that was. Just the project manager might
47:36
have done, but yeah. Thanks again to Anne Marie Glenn
47:40
and Noamine for joining us and to you for listening to the OPM
47:42
podcast. Just to mention, you can find
47:44
out more about finding purpose in your work in the Summer 2025
47:48
issue Project Journal. And don't forget to look out for
47:51
more episodes or to rate and reviews.
47:52
Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch
47:55
with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at
47:58
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. And Spotify users can also send
48:04
us feedback directly within the Spotify app.
48:07
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
48:10
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
48:14
visit apm.org.uk.