Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Coercive Control: The Hidden Signs You're Being Manipulated by Someone You Love | Love | E568

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Coercive Control: The Hidden Signs You're Being Manipulated by Someone You Love | Love | E568 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:02
Speaker 1: My close friends already know this. Now you will too,
0:04
Speaker 1: that before I was a psychologist, I was actually into
0:08
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Speaker 1: out Before we jump in, I just want to thank
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1:50
Speaker 2: So Most of my focus is around serial killers, sexual violence,
2:09
Speaker 2: sexual sadism, psychopathy, intimate partner violence, sexual assault, serial offender behavior,
2:14
Speaker 2: and I'm also certified in investigative psychology. So, you know,
2:22
Speaker 2: the perfect person to come visit you at your wedding
2:25
Speaker 2: or at a dinner party or at that weird holiday
2:28
Speaker 2: event that you're really uncomfortable at anyway.
2:31
Speaker 1: Here's something that can be really confusing. A relationship can
2:35
Speaker 1: involve intense, unconventional, or even edgy physical dynamics and still
2:40
Speaker 1: be really healthy, positive, and pleasurable for everyone involved. For
2:52
Speaker 1: young people, especially relationship dynamics can create pressure around coercion, manipulation,
3:00
Speaker 1: making it even harder to recognize and speak up when
3:04
Speaker 1: something isn't okay.
3:12
Speaker 2: Well, then I see people who are just putting their
3:15
Speaker 2: hands around their partner's throats, thinking that's what you're supposed
3:17
Speaker 2: to do because the media says that it's sexy and
3:20
Speaker 2: that it's not dangerous when it absolutely can kill you.
3:23
Speaker 2: It can kill you fast or it can kill you slow.
3:37
Speaker 1: That's why on today's show, we're doing a deep dive
3:39
Speaker 1: into what healthy consent looks like, what coercion and manipulation
3:44
Speaker 1: look like in contrast, how to get clear about our
3:47
Speaker 1: own boundaries and how to recognize when something has crossed
3:51
Speaker 1: a line. And welcome to the show.
3:52
Speaker 2: I'm Dr.
3:53
Speaker 1: Lisa Marie Bobby. This is Love, Happiness and Success. And
3:57
Speaker 1: I'm here as a psychologist, marriage and family therapist, board
4:00
Speaker 1: certified coach, and professional who spends a lot of time
4:03
Speaker 1: with people who are trying to figure out what is
4:06
Speaker 1: actually happening in their relationships. And sometimes this can take
4:11
Speaker 1: a dark turn. And hey, before we dive in, I
4:14
Speaker 1: do want to make you aware that on this show,
4:17
Speaker 1: we are talking about some more intense aspects of relational
4:21
Speaker 1: dynamics that include BDSM, consensual power dynamics, open relationships, polyamory,
4:30
Speaker 1: and what that looks like when it is healthy and
4:33
Speaker 1: good for all involved. But we're also talking about what
4:37
Speaker 1: it looks like when it's not okay. Coercion, intimate partner violence,
4:43
Speaker 1: abusive dynamics, and also practices that can lead to physical
4:48
Speaker 1: injury and even death. So In the spirit of informed consent,
4:54
Speaker 1: I wanted to make you aware of that so that
4:56
Speaker 1: you can decide if you want to come along for
4:58
Speaker 1: this ride. I hope you do. I think it's a
5:01
Speaker 1: lot of really valuable and important information that I haven't
5:04
Speaker 1: heard discussed openly elsewhere. And I think that we need
5:08
Speaker 1: to spread the word for people who might need this information.
5:12
Speaker 1: Maybe it's for you. Maybe it's for someone else in
5:15
Speaker 1: your life that you're concerned about or who just needs
5:18
Speaker 1: to have all the information so that they can make
5:20
Speaker 1: good choices for themselves. So today I'm joined by AJ Greer.
5:23
Speaker 1: She is a researcher with a fascinating background. She does
5:26
Speaker 1: forensic work where she specializes in sadism, psychopathy, and intimate
5:32
Speaker 1: partner violence. She's now a educator who is sharing her
5:36
Speaker 1: perspective with law enforcement, prosecutors, medical professionals on how to
5:41
Speaker 1: understand when lines have been crossed. And she's here today
5:45
Speaker 1: to share those insights with you. she'll be illuminating facets
5:49
Speaker 1: of consent, boundaries, coercive control, and when things do cross lines,
5:55
Speaker 1: but also what it really means to create relationships where
5:58
Speaker 1: both people feel safe and empowered. And by the end
6:01
Speaker 1: of this conversation, you'll have more clarity around how to
6:05
Speaker 1: recognize unhealthy relationship dynamics, how to trust your instincts, and
6:10
Speaker 1: how to have more confident boundary conversations and also effective limits.
6:15
Speaker 1: So AJ, thank you so much for being here with
6:18
Speaker 1: me today.
6:19
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled
6:21
Speaker 2: to be here.
6:22
Speaker 1: Well, you know, let's just dive right into this. I mean,
6:26
Speaker 1: first of all, your background is so fascinating. And I
6:30
Speaker 1: have to share that you and I kind of encountered
6:33
Speaker 1: each other in the wild. We were both at the
6:35
Speaker 1: APA conference. And I think the first thing I saw
6:37
Speaker 1: was your guillotine earrings. And I was immediately like, oh,
6:40
Speaker 1: we're going to be friends. We started talking and then
6:43
Speaker 1: you turned out to be the most fascinating person I've
6:46
Speaker 1: ever met. So why don't you share a little bit
6:48
Speaker 1: about yourself with our friends here before we dive into
6:50
Speaker 1: some of these questions?
6:52
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. This is always the hardest part
6:54
Speaker 2: for me because I like have to remember all of
6:56
Speaker 2: the things that I do and I'm like, I'm just
6:59
Speaker 2: very excited to, I'm sorry, my cat just jumped up here.
7:01
Speaker 2: I've always been terrible at introductions in general because I like,
7:06
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I have all this knowledge. Wait, I
7:07
Speaker 2: have to talk about myself? So my background, I have
7:10
Speaker 2: a master's in forensic psychology where I specialized in sex
7:13
Speaker 2: offender behavior. And my thesis was basically focused around the
7:18
Speaker 2: implications for law enforcement investigations when somebody is psychopathic and
7:22
Speaker 2: has sexually sadistic behaviors. So, of course, learning about sexual sadism,
7:27
Speaker 2: I had to learn about what the consensual version of
7:29
Speaker 2: that looked like. I've also worked across rural Texas improving
7:32
Speaker 2: systems response to domestic violence. I got started in this
7:36
Speaker 2: field when I was... working on the sexual assault and
7:39
Speaker 2: family violence investigators course in the state of Texas. I've
7:42
Speaker 2: worked as a researcher at the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.
7:45
Speaker 2: So I've done a little bit of everything. But most
7:47
Speaker 2: of my focus is around serial killers, sexual violence, sexual sadism, psychopathy,
7:53
Speaker 2: intimate partner violence, sexual assault, serial offender behavior. And I'm
7:57
Speaker 2: also certified in investigative psychology. So, you know, the perfect
8:01
Speaker 2: person to come visit you at your wedding or at
8:03
Speaker 2: a dinner party or at that weird holiday event that
8:07
Speaker 2: you're really uncomfortable at anyway.
8:09
Speaker 1: Why do you think it is so important to be
8:13
Speaker 1: having these conversations publicly and openly so that people can
8:18
Speaker 1: understand like this landscape and use it to make informed
8:23
Speaker 1: choices about what they want to get involved in or not?
8:26
Speaker 2: So it's super important because I think a lot of
8:29
Speaker 2: people in the world are interested in alternative sex practices.
8:32
Speaker 2: So like kink or ethical non-monogamy or those sort of things,
8:37
Speaker 2: but they get introduced by a partner or they get
8:39
Speaker 2: introduced by porn or media, which doesn't show you what
8:43
Speaker 2: it actually means to be a participant in those groups,
8:46
Speaker 2: especially if you're introduced by a partner and the partner
8:48
Speaker 2: hasn't given you all of the information. So like In
8:51
Speaker 2: the kink community, they use risk-aware consensual kink, which means
8:55
Speaker 2: you are educated on all the things you're starting to
8:57
Speaker 2: participate in. And talking about it in public, one, it
9:00
Speaker 2: takes away the shame that someone who might have if
9:03
Speaker 2: they're interested in alternative sex practices. Because research shows that
9:07
Speaker 2: anywhere from like 40 to 60% of people participate in
9:11
Speaker 2: at least one kinky activity at some point in their life.
9:13
Speaker 2: So everyone, like a good chunk of people have tried it.
9:16
Speaker 2: So it takes away that shame and they can say, oh, okay,
9:19
Speaker 2: it's okay for me to look into this. And then
9:21
Speaker 2: that way, if they feel like it's okay to look
9:23
Speaker 2: into it, they'll look in places where they tell you
9:25
Speaker 2: how to do it safely. And that's really, really important
9:28
Speaker 2: because you can get injured if you don't know what
9:31
Speaker 2: you're doing or if you haven't looked into that education.
9:33
Speaker 2: And then you can build a community with other like-minded
9:36
Speaker 2: people so you can have that kind of group that
9:38
Speaker 2: understands and give advice and be like, this is why
9:41
Speaker 2: this is safe. This is why this is not safe.
9:43
Speaker 2: Here's this thing you can try instead. Yeah, definitely. Very
9:47
Speaker 2: passionate about it.
9:49
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, to be informed and also like I
9:53
Speaker 1: think understand the differences between things that are OK and
9:56
Speaker 1: not OK. And, you know, one of the reasons that
9:58
Speaker 1: I was so excited to talk with you on the show.
10:00
Speaker 1: is I think especially for young people who don't have
10:03
Speaker 1: a lot of relationship history and are really still developing
10:07
Speaker 1: their own point of view. And what do I like?
10:10
Speaker 1: What feels good to me? What do I want in
10:12
Speaker 1: a relationship? And honestly, haven't answered a lot of those
10:15
Speaker 1: questions yet and then could get connected with someone else.
10:19
Speaker 1: who might be coercive, might be even dangerous and not
10:24
Speaker 1: really know the warning signs or how to manage that.
10:28
Speaker 1: Consent is a big part of these practices.
10:31
Speaker 3: Yes.
10:32
Speaker 2: Right?
10:33
Speaker 1: And there's also a lot of risk and vulnerability around coercion,
10:39
Speaker 1: which can be very subtle. So what have you learned
10:44
Speaker 1: about the power of coercion and what happens to people
10:47
Speaker 1: who fall under that Spell, so to speak.
10:51
Speaker 2: So coercion is probably one of the most insidious things
10:55
Speaker 2: you will ever see because it's so subtle and having
10:59
Speaker 2: concrete evidence of it is very difficult. Because when you
11:03
Speaker 2: are coerced into doing something, there is it can look
11:06
Speaker 2: like consent, but there's this external something that is pressuring
11:11
Speaker 2: you into it. It's I'm too scared to say no.
11:14
Speaker 2: I'm scared they'll break up with me if I say no.
11:18
Speaker 2: They gave me alcohol and drugs so I would be
11:20
Speaker 2: more compliant. There's these other little things. But on the surface,
11:24
Speaker 2: it can be like, oh, well, you just got drunk
11:27
Speaker 2: and now you regret it. And that's not really how
11:28
Speaker 2: that works. I have not met a lot of people,
11:32
Speaker 2: if any, who have been like, oh, yeah, I just
11:35
Speaker 2: regretted it. Or if they regret it, they're not going
11:37
Speaker 2: out and they're saying, hey, I was assaulted. That's very uncommon. Actually,
11:40
Speaker 2: we find that false reports happen. are anywhere from 1%
11:45
Speaker 2: to 3% of every report of sexual assault ever made.
11:48
Speaker 2: And those are really iffy numbers because it's kind of
11:51
Speaker 2: hard to study, but the false report rate is incredibly low.
11:55
Speaker 2: But someone under the so-called spell of coercion, it's been
12:02
Speaker 2: subtly building over time, especially in intimate partner violence. It's
12:05
Speaker 2: little things. It's the offender or the abuser manipulating the
12:10
Speaker 2: survivor's thought process. And it's very, very subtle. It's just
12:16
Speaker 2: enough plausible deniability. It's, oh, I didn't actually say it
12:19
Speaker 2: like that. And then it's something small enough that it's like, OK, well,
12:23
Speaker 2: I guess I'll just let it go this time. And
12:24
Speaker 2: then it's like, OK, let's see what the next thing
12:27
Speaker 2: they can get away with is. And now suddenly you've
12:30
Speaker 2: got all of these coercive patterns. And that's just the
12:32
Speaker 2: emotional part. And it is fascinating to see and horrifying
12:38
Speaker 2: all at the same time, because it's, it's, you really
12:41
Speaker 2: just have to look and look and look. And then you,
12:44
Speaker 2: you're like, Oh, I see the pattern and it can
12:46
Speaker 2: happen to anyone. It can happen to anyone who's rich,
12:49
Speaker 2: poor in, in power, out of power, uh, middle-class, uh, man, woman.
12:56
Speaker 2: Most of our research shows violence on for men against women.
12:59
Speaker 2: But again, that we're just research is kind of underdeveloped. Uh,
13:04
Speaker 2: But it's like anyone has a risk of being coerced,
13:08
Speaker 2: especially by an intimate partner.
13:09
Speaker 1: Yeah.
13:11
Speaker 2: Not to say you shouldn't date, though.
13:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. But go ahead and date anyway.
13:17
Speaker 2: It'll be fine. Just, you know, look out for some,
13:19
Speaker 2: you know, red flags. You're like, just, it's up to you.
13:23
Speaker 2: Just be aware. Right.
13:25
Speaker 1: Well, but what I think is also so interesting in
13:27
Speaker 1: what you're saying, and I just want to highlight this difference.
13:31
Speaker 1: I think that there are some terms that are getting
13:33
Speaker 1: thrown around in our culture these days, like gaslighting or
13:37
Speaker 1: narcissists or abuse. And I will tell you, as a
13:40
Speaker 1: professional marriage counselor, I've had people coming at me like,
13:43
Speaker 1: I think I'm being abused or they're gaslighting me. And
13:45
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I think they might have a different
13:48
Speaker 1: opinion that they're vocalizing, but this is actually not gaslighting
13:52
Speaker 1: or abuse. But what you are talking about actually is
13:56
Speaker 1: that there is this multidimensional cluster of things that can
14:01
Speaker 1: fall under these really pathological power and control dynamics that
14:06
Speaker 1: are intended to diminish autonomy, to take away control, to
14:11
Speaker 1: even cause harm and maintain the ability to do that
14:17
Speaker 1: in a scary way.
14:18
Speaker 2: That's so interesting you say that because a lot of...
14:22
Speaker 2: I've talked to some couples counselors before and one thing
14:25
Speaker 2: I'm always telling them is like, there is that aspect
14:28
Speaker 2: of like, it is, it could be that disagreement. And
14:31
Speaker 2: then you have to look at other aspects of, of
14:34
Speaker 2: what could be going on. Like, is he, are they
14:36
Speaker 2: having a disagreement? And he also controls all the finances
14:39
Speaker 2: and gives her an allowance. Okay. I'd be a little
14:42
Speaker 2: bit more suspicious, but then if it's just a, you know,
14:44
Speaker 2: a disagreement and they don't have the same opinion on something,
14:47
Speaker 2: but there aren't those other things present, then yeah, you
14:50
Speaker 2: got to look at it a different way. Absolutely.
14:52
Speaker 1: Absolutely. But, you know, and this is also so important.
14:56
Speaker 1: And I know that when we first connected at APA,
14:59
Speaker 1: we talked a bit about the reality that even professional
15:03
Speaker 1: therapists frequently can sometimes struggle to understand what's going on
15:09
Speaker 1: in relationships and tell the difference between healthy, consensual, alternative
15:15
Speaker 1: sexual practices that are positive for both people and versus
15:21
Speaker 1: ones that really aren't. Because I think sometimes to the
15:24
Speaker 1: untrained ear, any sexual activity that includes components of violence
15:30
Speaker 1: or power and control, other types of things, automatically raise
15:35
Speaker 1: red flags. And that's just due to ignorance, where people might,
15:39
Speaker 1: therapists could pathologize things that are within the realm of okay,
15:45
Speaker 1: versus Situations where people are like, I just had this
15:49
Speaker 1: experience and I'm not fully sure it was okay or not,
15:54
Speaker 1: or sometimes come in, really have experienced something very destructive,
16:00
Speaker 1: but that was under the umbrella of say BDSM and
16:06
Speaker 1: are like struggling within themselves to figure out if something
16:12
Speaker 1: was done to them or did I participate or what
16:15
Speaker 1: just happened? So I know that this is a lot
16:17
Speaker 1: to unpack, but I think that that's the central question, right?
16:21
Speaker 1: Is how to get clear about what's okay and what's
16:27
Speaker 1: not okay. So maybe we could start by talking us
16:34
Speaker 1: through from your perspective, What it looks like when there
16:40
Speaker 1: is consent and when both people are having a mutually
16:44
Speaker 1: agreed upon experience that they both enjoy.
16:47
Speaker 2: This is my favorite thing to talk about. I talk
16:49
Speaker 2: about this probably once to twice a week at this
16:52
Speaker 2: point because it is confusing unless you don't know the
16:57
Speaker 2: dynamics that go into it. So first things first is
17:00
Speaker 2: that there is extensive discussion. This is not something you
17:04
Speaker 2: don't just meet up with someone and you're like, I'm
17:06
Speaker 2: going to participate in consensual non-consent. And also consensual non-consent
17:11
Speaker 2: is the extreme end. That is not the first thing
17:13
Speaker 2: you jump into when you're joining into kink or BDSM.
17:17
Speaker 2: But one big thing is discussion, discussion, discussion, communication, communication, communication.
17:22
Speaker 2: It's talking about what kind of mental health needs you
17:25
Speaker 2: might have. It's talking about what physical health needs you
17:28
Speaker 2: might have. It's talking about what you're hard limits are
17:30
Speaker 2: and what your soft limits are. And hard limits are
17:32
Speaker 2: things you absolutely don't want to do. Soft limits are
17:35
Speaker 2: things you might be interested in trying in the future.
17:37
Speaker 2: It's having a safe word or a safe signal so
17:39
Speaker 2: you're able to make everything stop right away. It's having
17:42
Speaker 2: or following the traffic system. So you have a red
17:45
Speaker 2: light means stop, yellow light means slow down, and green
17:48
Speaker 2: light means keep going. It's having a partner that you
17:51
Speaker 2: have that trust built with where they will do subtle
17:54
Speaker 2: check-ins as you go in through Different scenes. And I've
17:58
Speaker 2: seen that play out. So I went to Kink Fest
18:00
Speaker 2: because crazy business write off, by the way, I'm sure
18:03
Speaker 2: I'm going to get audited. But while I'm not in
18:06
Speaker 2: the community myself, I don't think I would be a
18:09
Speaker 2: good educator if I don't take information education that is
18:12
Speaker 2: provided by the community and then incorporate that into the
18:16
Speaker 2: work that I do. And I always now have to
18:18
Speaker 2: clarify that I'm not in the kink community because I've
18:20
Speaker 2: had individuals come and approach me, one in particular. And
18:23
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, OK, that's why I should probably
18:26
Speaker 2: clarify that, because the poor guy was very embarrassed. I
18:29
Speaker 2: was like, oh, no, I'm sorry. But it was very anyway.
18:33
Speaker 2: But learning that information and when I went to go
18:36
Speaker 2: learn about the demonstrations, I watched the little check ins
18:39
Speaker 2: with these two individuals who were demonstrating a particular type
18:42
Speaker 2: of play. And it was like subtle shoulder touches. And
18:45
Speaker 2: you could see there was that mutual trust because trust
18:48
Speaker 2: and safety is pretty much everything. And everything that is
18:51
Speaker 2: done in a BDSM scene is done with enthusiastic and
18:55
Speaker 2: informed consent. So that's a really big thing that you
18:59
Speaker 2: look for. And also specifically in BDSM where there's power dynamics,
19:05
Speaker 2: the person that's truly in control at the end of
19:07
Speaker 2: the day is the submissive. they are the one that
19:09
Speaker 2: gets to decide when stuff stops. They're the ones that are,
19:14
Speaker 2: if there's a total power exchange dynamic or like a
19:17
Speaker 2: 24-7 BDSM power dynamic exchange, it is the rules that
19:22
Speaker 2: are made are for the sub's benefit. So it's maybe
19:26
Speaker 2: the dom and the sub have agreed that The dom
19:29
Speaker 2: will technically decide what the sub eats, but that was
19:31
Speaker 2: at the request of the submissive because she's been having
19:34
Speaker 2: trouble with like her self-image and with an eating disorder
19:39
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. So it's really actually focused on
19:43
Speaker 2: her needs and what's best for her. And it just
19:45
Speaker 2: kind of looks like he's in charge. So it's more
19:48
Speaker 2: of a caring aspect. than anything.
19:50
Speaker 1: Yeah. And for somebody just entering into this conversation, like, wait, wait,
19:54
Speaker 1: what is that? Well, no, power dynamics are part of
19:58
Speaker 1: what is going on here. And what you're describing is
20:02
Speaker 1: that when done well with a mutual pleasure and benefit
20:07
Speaker 1: that it's really quite positive. And so just to look
20:11
Speaker 1: at this from an outside perspective is we need to
20:14
Speaker 1: be able to see that, but also somebody listening who
20:17
Speaker 1: might be involved, you know, does what AJ is describing.
20:21
Speaker 1: match the experience that you are having of being heard
20:24
Speaker 1: and respected and cared for or.
20:27
Speaker 2: Not. Yes. The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, who I
20:32
Speaker 2: know I talked about last time I spoke to you,
20:34
Speaker 2: love them. They're wonderful. They actually have some kind of
20:38
Speaker 2: checklists for professionals who work with kinky or non-monogamous individuals
20:44
Speaker 2: to help them determine if consent was present. And it's
20:46
Speaker 2: stuff like, Do you feel like you can participate in
20:49
Speaker 2: safe sex practices? Do you feel like you can use
20:51
Speaker 2: your safe word? All of these ways to help determine consent.
20:56
Speaker 2: And that's I mean, consent is everything. And all of
21:00
Speaker 2: that discussion. And I had a forensic nurse when I
21:03
Speaker 2: was presenting the other week. It was a sexual assault
21:05
Speaker 2: response team, a wonderful group. But she said at the end,
21:09
Speaker 2: she's like, I just have a comment. It just seems
21:11
Speaker 2: like there's so much more discussion and respect that goes
21:14
Speaker 2: in in a true BDSM dynamic. Than even in mainstream
21:18
Speaker 2: or vanilla sex. And I'm like, I agree. If people
21:22
Speaker 2: would start having these type of discussions in a vanilla
21:25
Speaker 2: setting or mainstream setting, probably it would make relationships stronger
21:30
Speaker 2: and healthier because now you have that intimacy of communication.
21:35
Speaker 2: and talking about your needs and wants, and you've gotten
21:38
Speaker 2: over the hump of potential discomfort because now you're connected
21:41
Speaker 2: on that level. And I'm like, yes, let's incorporate that
21:44
Speaker 2: safety and that discussion into everyday relationships or relationships that
21:49
Speaker 2: are mainstream and not alternative.
21:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Well, then just, and I don't mean to
21:54
Speaker 1: put you on the spot, but just off the top
21:56
Speaker 1: of your head, what might be another couple of things
21:59
Speaker 1: on that checklist? And I'm asking for the benefit of
22:01
Speaker 1: a little 20-year-old who's like, yeah, what should this look like?
22:06
Speaker 1: And so tell me another couple of things, but then
22:08
Speaker 1: also where would people go to get trustworthy information in
22:14
Speaker 1: order to become more informed?
22:16
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So there's things like if you meet someone and
22:20
Speaker 2: you're interested in that dynamic and they say, oh, I
22:23
Speaker 2: don't believe in limits. That's a red flag because if
22:26
Speaker 2: somebody doesn't have a limit, that means they're probably not
22:29
Speaker 2: going to respect your limits and everyone has a limit.
22:32
Speaker 2: There's like humans are boundaries are healthy and boundaries are everywhere.
22:36
Speaker 2: And there's someone who's like, oh, no limits. If someone
22:39
Speaker 2: says you're not allowed to use your safe word, that
22:43
Speaker 2: is straight up abuse. Like there's always a way you
22:45
Speaker 2: can get out of things, even if you're doing some
22:48
Speaker 2: of the more extreme things like edge play, consensual non-consent,
22:51
Speaker 2: there's still a way for you to get out of that.
22:53
Speaker 2: And if you're gonna, if somebody brings you in to
22:56
Speaker 2: the BDSM community and immediately they want to do consensual
22:59
Speaker 2: non-consent with you, that would be a red flag for
23:01
Speaker 2: me because that is something that is way down the
23:03
Speaker 2: line when you've built a lot of trust with an
23:05
Speaker 2: individual and you don't have, you can be interested in that,
23:08
Speaker 2: but build the trust to go to that part because
23:12
Speaker 2: it is a lot. It can be scary. And also
23:13
Speaker 2: being aware of where you're at in your own life
23:17
Speaker 2: and what you feel most comfortable with. Also looking if
23:20
Speaker 2: your partner is jealous and setting double standards and Or,
23:24
Speaker 2: you know, maybe they're trying to threaten to out you
23:27
Speaker 2: to your friends and family because you participated in a
23:29
Speaker 2: kink one time or two times or you're in the
23:31
Speaker 2: kink community or you've disclosed that. There's there's different. There's
23:36
Speaker 2: just so many different ways that you could kind of
23:39
Speaker 2: talk about it. And it's also asking because when I
23:41
Speaker 2: get a phone call, someone's like, hey, we have a
23:44
Speaker 2: rough sex case. And, you know, they've had kinky sex
23:47
Speaker 2: before or rough sex before. But she's saying in this
23:49
Speaker 2: instance that she used her safe signal or safe word
23:53
Speaker 2: and it was ignored. My thing is if somebody's calling
23:56
Speaker 2: the police and they're saying it's a rough sex thing,
24:00
Speaker 2: most people in a healthy BDSM dynamic are probably not
24:03
Speaker 2: calling the police. But you can always find the best
24:06
Speaker 2: resources from the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. They have
24:10
Speaker 2: tons and tons of resources. They do incident reporting. They
24:13
Speaker 2: have like educational components like cultural competency about kink.
24:19
Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, we're definitely going to put links to that
24:23
Speaker 1: resource in the show notes so that people can find it.
24:27
Speaker 1: But I think this is just so good because, you know,
24:28
Speaker 1: the other thing that's coming up for me as you're talking,
24:31
Speaker 1: I think especially, you know, in recent years, I think
24:35
Speaker 1: this has probably increased over the last 10 years or so.
24:38
Speaker 1: I mean, Porn has always been around. But so many
24:40
Speaker 1: young people, you know, their first exposure to sexuality, even
24:44
Speaker 1: as early teens, is through the imagery and videos where
24:48
Speaker 1: nobody's having conversations about, OK, so what are we going to,
24:51
Speaker 1: you know, before? And it's just imagery. And sometimes it
24:54
Speaker 1: can be quite intense.
24:55
Speaker 2: And so, you know, even.
24:57
Speaker 1: I'm thinking if they don't mean harm, if they have
25:01
Speaker 1: been acculturated to believe this is what it should be,
25:04
Speaker 1: just by virtue of having learned through these videos or
25:08
Speaker 1: online stuff, and could really unintentionally, I think, harm a partner.
25:14
Speaker 1: So even just putting this information in front of them
25:17
Speaker 1: to begin to develop awareness of when this is done
25:21
Speaker 1: in a positive way. Here's what it looks like. Yeah.
25:25
Speaker 2: Media has been.
25:27
Speaker 3: oh, it's been a headache for me and everyone who
25:30
Speaker 3: does any work around kink. So there was actually a
25:34
Speaker 3: study done by Herbenick out of, I believe it's Indiana University.
25:39
Speaker 2: Brilliant woman. She's been looking at the cultural popularization of
25:43
Speaker 2: sexual strangulation. And a lot of articles, one, I think
25:47
Speaker 2: she looked at, I believe it was 28 articles, only
25:50
Speaker 2: two underwent review by a healthcare professional. None of the,
25:54
Speaker 2: there were very few that mentioned the risks that come
25:57
Speaker 2: with it as far as like death, because that can happen.
26:01
Speaker 1: So let's go, I just have to frame this. So like,
26:04
Speaker 1: you know, I remember it was probably sometime last year,
26:06
Speaker 1: maybe young women were sharing that they had been strangled,
26:11
Speaker 1: just kind of out of the blue. And this was
26:13
Speaker 1: actually a thing. It was happening frequently. A lot of
26:16
Speaker 1: people were describing this and nowhere in that article was
26:21
Speaker 1: it like, oh, by the way, that can kill you
26:22
Speaker 1: and you should never do it at all. So tell
26:24
Speaker 1: us what you know, about strangulation in sexual encounters or otherwise.
26:30
Speaker 2: So there is a difference between strangulation and choking, but
26:33
Speaker 2: a lot of people will use the term choking as
26:36
Speaker 2: a reference to strangulation, which is always something that professionals
26:40
Speaker 2: need to discern when they're talking to people. They're saying choking,
26:43
Speaker 2: is it actually blocking the passageway or is it the
26:45
Speaker 2: external pressure? So strangulation is the external pressure and it
26:49
Speaker 2: can impede airflow or blood flow. It is, I believe
26:53
Speaker 2: it is a felony officially in all 50 states at
26:55
Speaker 2: this point. So there is no, like it is illegal
26:58
Speaker 2: to strangle someone. And basically what can happen is it
27:01
Speaker 2: causes loss of oxygen or loss of blood flow to
27:04
Speaker 2: the brain. Well, our brains love oxygen and blood. Go figure.
27:09
Speaker 1: Well bet.
27:09
Speaker 4: Yeah.
27:10
Speaker 2: And unfortunately or fortunately, our necks are very fragile. So
27:14
Speaker 2: it takes about the same amount of pressure as cracking
27:17
Speaker 2: a can of Coke that can cut off that blood
27:19
Speaker 2: flow or circulation. And then it's one of the huge
27:24
Speaker 2: tools in intimate partner violence to enforce coercion. It's also
27:28
Speaker 2: a huge lethality indicator. There's research that suggests if somebody
27:32
Speaker 2: is strangled by their partner, their increase of homicide... or
27:36
Speaker 2: intimate partner homicide increases by 750%.
27:39
Speaker 1: Actually, hold on. We need to take a quick break, AJ.
27:41
Speaker 1: But on the other side of this, I'd love to
27:43
Speaker 1: go more deeply into this. Again, just to raise awareness
27:46
Speaker 1: of like, how do you know if what's going on
27:49
Speaker 1: is really not okay, especially if it's in this gray space?
27:53
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Speaker 1: a very special guest, AJ Greer, who is an expert
30:29
Speaker 1: in the difference between the light and the dark when
30:33
Speaker 1: it comes to intimate relationships. So AJ, before we took
30:38
Speaker 1: a quick break, you were about to go into more
30:41
Speaker 1: detail around some of the signs that what you are
30:45
Speaker 1: experiencing is consistent with intimate partner violence. Take us into
30:52
Speaker 1: what some of those are. Yeah.
30:54
Speaker 2: So we were just talking about strangulation, which is a
30:57
Speaker 2: huge one, especially when I'm looking at my consensual sexual
31:01
Speaker 2: status in the kink community. They're less likely to use
31:04
Speaker 2: strangulation compared to my violent criminals outside of the kink community.
31:09
Speaker 2: But there's also things like a danger assessment that a
31:11
Speaker 2: lot of advocates and law enforcement agencies will use. So
31:14
Speaker 2: it can include things like, has the physical violence increased
31:19
Speaker 2: in severity or frequency over the past year? And when
31:21
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the danger assessment, it's a way for
31:24
Speaker 2: professionals to help determine if a person is at risk
31:28
Speaker 2: of being murdered by their intimate partner. So it's stuff
31:31
Speaker 2: like presence of a weapon. So presence of a gun
31:33
Speaker 2: actually increases risk The studies have changed a little bit,
31:37
Speaker 2: but the last time I saw this statistic is that
31:39
Speaker 2: it increased the risk by 500%. It's also heavily correlated
31:42
Speaker 2: with when strangulation is done in an intimate partner violence setting.
31:45
Speaker 2: There's also usually a presence of a gun in there.
31:48
Speaker 2: That may be a Texas-based statistic because I'm based in Texas, but...
31:53
Speaker 2: It is something where if I hear those two things together,
31:55
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I'm concerned. And there's stuff like, did
31:59
Speaker 2: he threaten to kill you? Has he threatened to kill himself?
32:03
Speaker 2: Is there use of drugs? Have you ever been forced
32:08
Speaker 2: to have sex with him or her? Again, it's based
32:12
Speaker 2: on violence from men against women. That's why you hear
32:15
Speaker 2: me use gendered language. I always like to clarify.
32:18
Speaker 1: For people who have never been in the situation from
32:21
Speaker 1: an outside observer, looking at someone who is in an
32:24
Speaker 1: abusive relationship and a coercive relationship, or even a manipulative situation,
32:30
Speaker 1: it looks so toxic from the outside. They're like, what
32:35
Speaker 1: are you thinking? But the reality is that the experience
32:39
Speaker 1: of being in those relationships is in large part defined
32:44
Speaker 1: by being unhooked from your own good judgment that you
32:48
Speaker 1: legitimately don't know. One of the primary characteristics of a,
32:52
Speaker 1: abusive relationship is actually isolation. And it is a set
32:56
Speaker 1: of manipulative and coercive techniques that make you question your
33:00
Speaker 1: own judgment, particularly when you have an attachment to somebody
33:05
Speaker 1: that you are bonded with and maybe are looking to
33:09
Speaker 1: to help you understand the world. And it can be
33:13
Speaker 1: very easy to substitute someone else's judgment or desires for
33:16
Speaker 1: your own in that situation, again, particularly for not just
33:19
Speaker 1: younger people, but for anyone with some of these relational vulnerabilities.
33:25
Speaker 1: And that is also why what we see is that
33:27
Speaker 1: it's very, very difficult for people to get out of
33:30
Speaker 1: these relationships or to leave because of this internal experience
33:35
Speaker 1: that's going on. Blaming yourself, right? Like believing the partner's like,
33:40
Speaker 1: oh no, you liked that. Or no, we agreed on that.
33:44
Speaker 1: Or why didn't you say something? So like there's a
33:48
Speaker 1: lot of nuance here that's deeply psychological.
33:51
Speaker 2: There's also something really important I like to bring up
33:54
Speaker 2: is that if there is, and I learned this from
33:57
Speaker 2: a woman who was teaching an intro to intimate partner
34:01
Speaker 2: violence class, the safest place when a dragon is breaking
34:04
Speaker 2: through the window is behind the dragon.
34:07
Speaker 1: Behind the dragon.
34:08
Speaker 2: So that is being with that partner is that's better
34:11
Speaker 2: the devil you know than the devil you don't. When
34:14
Speaker 2: you have to leave a partner behind, you are throwing
34:17
Speaker 2: away everything. And like, I don't want to give up
34:20
Speaker 2: my whole life for to go into a shelter or
34:24
Speaker 2: to go into some other situation. That's really, really hard.
34:28
Speaker 2: It's hard just to move houses. I would know I'd
34:30
Speaker 2: moved like six months ago. So having a survivor, asking
34:34
Speaker 2: a survivor who's already undergone all these things, like you mentioned, isolation,
34:38
Speaker 2: the blaming, The taking on this weight, the erasure of
34:41
Speaker 2: their own existence because they've been gaslit into this other.
34:43
Speaker 2: Their identity, their friends.
34:45
Speaker 3: Right.
34:46
Speaker 2: They've got all of these things going on. In addition
34:48
Speaker 2: to now you want me to give up my whole
34:50
Speaker 2: life that I I know because survivors know how to
34:52
Speaker 2: navigate that situation better than any of us ever will
34:55
Speaker 2: because they have survived this long. So now it's the
34:59
Speaker 2: part of getting out. It's really, really hard. And I
35:01
Speaker 2: always think about like there's nothing wrong with loving someone
35:05
Speaker 2: and wanting them to not hurt you. Like nobody is
35:08
Speaker 2: at fault because you love someone and they're choosing to
35:10
Speaker 2: harm you. The blame is on them. They are causing
35:13
Speaker 2: the harm. They are inflicting pain on you. And you
35:16
Speaker 2: did nothing wrong because you love them. It's like a
35:18
Speaker 2: child who's experienced abuse from their parents and they have
35:21
Speaker 2: that really complex situation of, I still love my parent
35:24
Speaker 2: even though they did something awful to me. And that's
35:27
Speaker 2: never the survivor's fault. That is always the abuser's fault.
35:30
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:31
Speaker 1: Hmm. So I know that a lot of work that
35:35
Speaker 1: you do is related to education, particularly law enforcement. You
35:40
Speaker 1: mentioned working with the nurses. Why is it so important
35:45
Speaker 1: for you to help these people who are dealing with
35:49
Speaker 1: survivors or going to crime scenes have the kind of
35:53
Speaker 1: visibility that you have in these moments?
35:56
Speaker 2: So I.
35:58
Speaker 2: Love teaching criminal justice entities because a lot of what
36:02
Speaker 2: I talk about is not super well known and it
36:06
Speaker 2: can be really uncomfortable for people to talk about because
36:09
Speaker 2: you hear the word rough sex and you're like, Oh,
36:12
Speaker 2: what do I do? And so a lot of times,
36:13
Speaker 2: you know, prosecutors are like, I don't know what to
36:15
Speaker 2: do with this case. It's kink. I don't know anything
36:16
Speaker 2: about kink. And we get on there and the victim's
36:19
Speaker 2: going to be berated. But now they have that information
36:22
Speaker 2: or if law enforcement's doing investigations, now they can see, Oh,
36:25
Speaker 2: I know what consent would look like if this was
36:27
Speaker 2: truly rough sex or a kinky relationship. This does not
36:31
Speaker 2: look like that. Like, you know, he I'm looking at
36:34
Speaker 2: all this context of like, it's all him in charge
36:37
Speaker 2: with nothing taking the sub into consideration. It's all, you know,
36:41
Speaker 2: he strangled her and that's already a felony in Texas.
36:44
Speaker 2: So it's it's them knowing these different things. And then
36:47
Speaker 2: now they're able to talk about it with others and
36:50
Speaker 2: they're able to be informed. So when they respond to scenes.
36:53
Speaker 2: And a lot of times, especially in my rural communities,
36:55
Speaker 2: there's a much bigger kink population than you'd initially believe.
36:58
Speaker 2: And so you also have the risk of like, OK, well,
37:01
Speaker 2: I don't want to report this offender to the police because,
37:04
Speaker 2: you know, his cousin is the chief of police. So
37:06
Speaker 2: now they're going to talk to an advocate. They can
37:08
Speaker 2: talk to an advocate at any time, of course. But
37:10
Speaker 2: now the advocates also have that information and they can
37:12
Speaker 2: be more aware of kink dynamics. And there's no the
37:16
Speaker 2: survivors not worry about feeling shame because they chose to
37:19
Speaker 2: participate in alternative sex practices.
37:21
Speaker 1: No, that makes so much sense. And what you're saying
37:24
Speaker 1: is for somebody to come forward and say, I was assaulted,
37:27
Speaker 1: I was raped, I was the victim of violence, and
37:29
Speaker 1: for then the other person to say, oh, no, we
37:31
Speaker 1: do that all the time. This was totally consensual in
37:34
Speaker 1: the context of BDSM to help people understand what is
37:38
Speaker 1: normal or positive or healthy in that space versus what
37:45
Speaker 1: is not okay and to have that way of understanding. Yeah.
37:49
Speaker 1: So- Well, and this is so good because, and honestly,
37:52
Speaker 1: why I wanted to talk with you here is then
37:54
Speaker 1: to bring this out into the light for my audience, right?
37:56
Speaker 1: People who might be engaged in some of this, but
37:59
Speaker 1: being able to develop their own awareness of what's okay
38:02
Speaker 1: and what's not okay.
38:04
Speaker 2: That's a huge thing. I was talking to a friend
38:07
Speaker 2: of mine and I was like, I'm going on this
38:09
Speaker 2: podcast and it's about healthy relationships and all that stuff.
38:13
Speaker 2: And one of the big things we get asked questions
38:15
Speaker 2: about this, we had a bunch of questions about this
38:16
Speaker 2: at APA is like, do you talk to young adults?
38:19
Speaker 2: Because we're seeing this all the time and they're just
38:22
Speaker 2: not aware of the dangers and they're not seeing all
38:24
Speaker 2: of this. And I'm like, I'll talk to anyone who
38:27
Speaker 2: will listen to me who's above the age of 18. Like,
38:29
Speaker 2: cause I like, I have met enough people who've come
38:31
Speaker 2: up to me and said, Hey, I'm participating in this.
38:33
Speaker 2: I'm like, cool, that's great. And there's nothing wrong with,
38:37
Speaker 2: practicing alternative sex practices. I want to destigmatize that because
38:40
Speaker 2: then once we destigmatize that, then we can actually look
38:43
Speaker 2: at what is violence and what is just consensual adult activity.
38:47
Speaker 2: So when people are more comfortable hearing about it, then, okay,
38:51
Speaker 2: maybe they do some investigation and they learn about what
38:53
Speaker 2: is healthy and what is not healthy. And now they're
38:54
Speaker 2: seeing some red flags like, oh, I don't know if
38:57
Speaker 2: this is healthy. Let me go find a kink aware
39:00
Speaker 2: professional and let me talk to this therapist and let
39:02
Speaker 2: me tell her what's going on or him what's going on.
39:05
Speaker 2: And then move forward from there. And then ultimately, it
39:07
Speaker 2: could potentially save somebody's life. And I love that idea.
39:12
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just me being egotistical, but if a little
39:15
Speaker 2: bit of information can help one person, that's a huge victory.
39:19
Speaker 1: Well, and that it can be confusing because the actual behaviors,
39:23
Speaker 1: like the things that might transpire between two people, might not...
39:29
Speaker 1: look different in a violent situation versus a BDSM situation.
39:36
Speaker 1: But it is the context. It's the communication. It's the
39:38
Speaker 1: nature of the relationship. It's the presence of consent. And
39:42
Speaker 1: that is the part that's really important to be informed about.
39:45
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned also then talking to a therapist
39:48
Speaker 1: or getting professional opinion or professional support. What's also, and
39:51
Speaker 1: I just want to say this out loud for people listening,
39:54
Speaker 1: is to do your homework around the therapist that you
39:59
Speaker 1: connect with. If you'd like some support in navigating relational dynamics,
40:03
Speaker 1: particularly if you are involved in alternative sexual practices, because
40:07
Speaker 1: even as a licensed marriage and family therapist, there was very,
40:12
Speaker 1: very little training or education in my background or sexuality
40:16
Speaker 1: at all, which is such an important part of intimate relationships, right?
40:20
Speaker 1: I mean, like maybe one graduate level class, like that's it.
40:24
Speaker 1: And I don't know that we talked about alternative sexual practices.
40:27
Speaker 1: And so, so if you want someone who is more, um,
40:32
Speaker 1: informed and has a wider range of understanding around what's
40:35
Speaker 1: normal or who could help you BDSM polyamory, um, you know,
40:41
Speaker 1: open relationships, things of that nature, that can also be
40:45
Speaker 1: very stigmatizing. Even to mental health practitioners without specialized training,
40:50
Speaker 1: you might look for a therapist who is an ASECT certified, A-A-S-C, no, A,
41:01
Speaker 1: I have to look at this, ASECT certified therapist, which
41:04
Speaker 1: means that they've had a lot of postgraduate training around sexuality.
41:10
Speaker 1: or who lists a sexologist in their background, or who
41:13
Speaker 1: talks about this as being a dimension of their practice,
41:18
Speaker 1: because it's easy for, I think, mental health professionals without
41:21
Speaker 1: that understanding to pathologize some of this in a way
41:24
Speaker 1: that is also unproductive. Yeah.
41:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Having a kink-aware therapist is crucial or talking
41:34
Speaker 2: to a kink aware professional.
41:36
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
41:37
Speaker 2: Okay.
41:37
Speaker 1: So let's take one last quick break. And then on
41:40
Speaker 1: the other side, if that's okay, AJ, I would love
41:44
Speaker 1: to talk about another dimension of your work, which is
41:48
Speaker 1: related to the psychology of perpetrators. And you have done
41:52
Speaker 1: a lot of work with everything from felons to prison populations,
41:56
Speaker 1: to offenders of domestic violence, all the way to serial killers.
42:01
Speaker 1: I mean, people who are looking for victims to harm
42:06
Speaker 1: or kill. And I cannot let you go without just
42:10
Speaker 1: getting some of your perspective on red flags, things to
42:14
Speaker 1: look for, particularly for people who are dating or new relationships,
42:18
Speaker 1: the sign that this.
42:20
Speaker 2: Is like, you got to get out now. Okay? Absolutely.
42:23
Speaker 2: Sounds great. All right.
42:24
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Speaker 1: promo code LHS. So you guys, we're back with AJ Greer.
44:55
Speaker 1: She is a researcher who studies sexual violence, intimate partner violence,
45:02
Speaker 1: the psychology of offenders, and the intersection between similarities between
45:09
Speaker 1: some of the behaviors that can occur there and also
45:12
Speaker 1: in normal, healthy, alternative sexual practices so that people are
45:16
Speaker 1: more informed and understand when they are truly involved. in
45:21
Speaker 1: danger so that they can make informed choices and change something.
45:25
Speaker 1: So AJ, what I'd love to just get your insight
45:29
Speaker 1: around are some of the warning signs that you have
45:33
Speaker 1: come to understand are indicators that you may be entering
45:37
Speaker 1: into or in a relationship with someone who is very, very,
45:42
Speaker 1: very unsafe. And so we have done a great job
45:46
Speaker 1: of talking about like, what does coercion look like? What
45:49
Speaker 1: does manipulation look like? What does intimate partner violence look like?
45:54
Speaker 1: But I mean, to take that a level further. So
45:56
Speaker 1: for somebody who's maybe dating or out in the world
45:59
Speaker 1: meeting new people or advancing into a relationship, I mean,
46:04
Speaker 1: what would you look for? What would you warn people about?
46:07
Speaker 2: This is always fun for me, especially because I'm back
46:09
Speaker 2: in the dating world.
46:10
Speaker 1: I think it's fun that you think that's fun.
46:12
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, okay. I mean, I'm not actually dating,
46:16
Speaker 2: but I think about it all the time. And I'm like,
46:18
Speaker 2: if I were to date, what would I look for?
46:21
Speaker 2: Or like if my friends ask me, I'm like, it's
46:24
Speaker 2: looking for subtle things. One of the things that I
46:28
Speaker 2: always talk about is lies by omission. So when you
46:31
Speaker 2: first start seeing someone, people typically put their best foot forward.
46:35
Speaker 2: And they may lie by omission. And you're not going
46:37
Speaker 2: to necessarily be able to tell right off the bat.
46:39
Speaker 1: Define the term. What does lie by omission mean to you?
46:42
Speaker 2: So to me, when someone lies by omission, it means
46:44
Speaker 2: that they don't give you all of the information because
46:47
Speaker 2: they know you might have a different opinion or different
46:50
Speaker 2: take if they gave you all of the information.
46:53
Speaker 1: They leave stuff out.
46:54
Speaker 2: They leave stuff out. Yes, that's the best way to
46:57
Speaker 2: describe it. But it's also one that's really hard to catch.
47:00
Speaker 2: And it may be a couple months into dating before
47:02
Speaker 2: you start seeing that pattern. It's someone who... Well, why
47:07
Speaker 2: is that important?
47:08
Speaker 1: I mean, is it like leaving anything out?
47:12
Speaker 2: It's something specifically that they know you would change your
47:17
Speaker 2: mind about either having intimacy with them, continuing to date them,
47:21
Speaker 2: continuing to want to be around them, and they choose
47:24
Speaker 2: to leave it out rather than letting you decide for yourself.
47:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, they are removing your ability to practice informed consent
47:30
Speaker 1: because you don't have all the information and they know
47:32
Speaker 1: it would be a deal breaker.
47:34
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. That's a huge, just general red flag for
47:38
Speaker 2: me in like, Overall, it also irritates me. I'm like,
47:42
Speaker 2: I believe that people are adults and they should have
47:44
Speaker 2: all the information. And it's also OK if something doesn't
47:47
Speaker 2: work out. It doesn't need to be. You can have
47:50
Speaker 2: differences of opinions on things and you can talk about it.
47:53
Speaker 2: That's what you should do in a healthy relationship.
47:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:57
Speaker 2: And then as far as like as you go on dating,
47:59
Speaker 2: it's looking for things like being respectful of your time,
48:03
Speaker 2: showing an interest in you, but not over the top.
48:06
Speaker 2: You know, we talk about love bombing all the time.
48:08
Speaker 2: And I see a lot of people struggle with like
48:10
Speaker 2: what's just really fun and flashy romance versus what is
48:14
Speaker 2: love bombing. And love bombing is more almost like a clinginess,
48:18
Speaker 2: in my opinion. And it's also, you know, once you
48:22
Speaker 2: get into the relationship, it's God, there's so many jealousy
48:26
Speaker 2: is a big one. Jealousy is always one that is like, oh,
48:29
Speaker 2: let's take a step back, or it's saying that your
48:31
Speaker 2: partner can't wear something, or there's smaller insidious ways that
48:35
Speaker 2: jealousy comes in. They'll trick you into saying like, oh,
48:38
Speaker 2: I'm not feeling really well, but you come back from
48:41
Speaker 2: going out and like, they look a little sick, but
48:43
Speaker 2: they're not fully sick. And like, there was not really
48:46
Speaker 2: a need for you to come home, but there's Plausible deniability.
48:50
Speaker 1: You can tell you are being manipulated through lies, actually.
48:55
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it almost touches into the gaslighting territory because
48:59
Speaker 2: it's rewriting the way something happened and making a person
49:03
Speaker 2: think that what they're seeing is not actually what's occurring.
49:06
Speaker 2: And it's very subtle. It's subtle and it's just plausible
49:12
Speaker 2: enough that it's hard to argue with and hard to
49:14
Speaker 2: put your foot in the sand because when you really
49:15
Speaker 2: like someone... And they do something small. Humans, naturally, we
49:19
Speaker 2: have odd behaviors. that's what makes us so fascinating and
49:22
Speaker 2: it's like oh well maybe I give them the benefit
49:24
Speaker 2: of the doubt and that's fine and it may be
49:26
Speaker 2: fine but it's something you keep in the back of
49:28
Speaker 2: your mind and then if you're seeing patterns of behavior
49:31
Speaker 2: like that those behaviors will escalate and then that's when
49:34
Speaker 2: you're like oh I need to I need to go
49:37
Speaker 2: yeah okay so that's Or if they start talking poorly
49:41
Speaker 2: about your friends, that's kind of a start to isolation. Like, oh,
49:45
Speaker 2: I don't know why your friends are like that. Why
49:46
Speaker 2: do you still talk to them? Say I get into
49:50
Speaker 2: a fight with my best friend. He's annoyed me for
49:52
Speaker 2: some reason. And I tell that to my partner. My
49:54
Speaker 2: partner's like, oh, I still don't know why you're friends
49:55
Speaker 2: with him. He's so terrible. And kind of reinforces that behavior. Okay,
49:59
Speaker 2: is that the start to isolation? Or is my partner
50:02
Speaker 2: actually checking to see if my best friend is good
50:04
Speaker 2: for me? And it's that discernment. And it's also... Don't
50:07
Speaker 2: beat yourself up if you get it wrong. People get
50:09
Speaker 2: it wrong all of the time. It's very hard for
50:13
Speaker 2: individuals to have that discernment because it's nice to think
50:15
Speaker 2: the best of people. And we shouldn't have to be
50:17
Speaker 2: jaded in dating.
50:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and to get other opinions, you know, because
50:22
Speaker 1: I think that sometimes when you're in the pool, so
50:24
Speaker 1: to speak, it can legitimately be hard. Like, how do
50:28
Speaker 1: I interpret this thing that my partner is saying to me?
50:31
Speaker 1: And I think that it could also go one of
50:33
Speaker 1: two ways. you know, on the one hand to have
50:35
Speaker 1: honest feedback, like if I, you know, a friend or
50:38
Speaker 1: family member, perhaps a therapist or a coach to say, yeah,
50:41
Speaker 1: that does actually sound kind of weird. No, I think
50:44
Speaker 1: you should trust your instincts there. Or, um, yeah, you
50:47
Speaker 1: know what, they might actually have a point. Maybe that,
50:51
Speaker 1: tell me more about your patterns with their friend. Is,
50:53
Speaker 1: is there, uh, times that they've hurt your feelings and
50:55
Speaker 1: you've kind of let it go and your partner's reflecting
50:58
Speaker 1: that back to you, right? But just to help you
51:00
Speaker 1: think through it in a more nuanced way, I think
51:02
Speaker 1: that the danger is always isolation. When we're having these
51:06
Speaker 1: experiences and not really like, how do I feel about
51:11
Speaker 1: this without any outside perspective, there's a lot of vulnerability there.
51:15
Speaker 3: Yeah.
51:16
Speaker 2: I also see patterns of like when people are first
51:18
Speaker 2: starting to see someone in the first six months, maybe
51:20
Speaker 2: they don't talk about them all that much. Like they'll
51:22
Speaker 2: talk about only the good things or they won't talk
51:24
Speaker 2: about them at all. And I'm like, Talk to your
51:26
Speaker 2: friends about your partners. One, it's OK because you're probably
51:29
Speaker 2: excited to be dating that person. Two, your friends, if
51:33
Speaker 2: they're really good friends, are going to be like, hey,
51:35
Speaker 2: that's a weird behavior. Why don't we talk a little
51:37
Speaker 2: bit more about that? And so it's having that community
51:40
Speaker 2: gives you that sense of accountability or gives the like
51:43
Speaker 2: there's that implicit accountability of somebody who's offending. Because a
51:47
Speaker 2: lot of times, especially when I'm talking to offenders, I'm like,
51:51
Speaker 2: no one has ever held you accountable for anything. So
51:54
Speaker 2: you just think that you don't can do whatever you
51:56
Speaker 2: want and you're not going to get in trouble. And
51:58
Speaker 2: people are reinforcing that because they're letting it continue to happen.
52:01
Speaker 2: No one's saying like, hey, that's a pretty horrible thing
52:04
Speaker 2: you did. Right.
52:06
Speaker 1: And I will add right there that to me is
52:10
Speaker 1: always the biggest red flag is a entitlement. The rules
52:14
Speaker 1: don't apply to me. Always watch out for that as
52:18
Speaker 1: it with partners, with coworkers, with, you know, organizational stuff
52:23
Speaker 1: that is really important. AJ, one other thing, if it's okay,
52:27
Speaker 1: I'm realizing that there's another dimension of this that I
52:30
Speaker 1: haven't asked you about yet. Maybe we could even weave
52:33
Speaker 1: it back in at earlier parts of this conversation. AJ,
52:39
Speaker 1: based on what you've learned, I'd love to hear your
52:41
Speaker 1: perspective on another relational dynamic that is becoming increasingly common
52:50
Speaker 1: where there can be coercion, manipulation, power and control that
52:55
Speaker 1: can sometimes be hard to see, even for therapists. And
52:58
Speaker 1: that is related to polyamory, open relationships, or situations where
53:04
Speaker 1: people are put into consenting to things, relationship agreements that
53:12
Speaker 1: sometimes they're not always fully comfortable with.
53:16
Speaker 2: Can you take us into that? Absolutely. So I actually
53:19
Speaker 2: know plenty of people who are polyamorous and truly ethically polyamorous.
53:26
Speaker 2: And I've also seen the individuals who claim that they're
53:29
Speaker 2: ethically polyamorous and they're not. They're just trying to cheat
53:33
Speaker 2: on their partner or they've coerced their partner into doing it.
53:37
Speaker 2: And it really has the same dynamics as... This is
53:41
Speaker 2: a two-parter, so I'll talk about what it means to
53:43
Speaker 2: be actually... What does.
53:46
Speaker 1: It look like when it's when it's positive and everybody's
53:49
Speaker 1: having a good time?
53:50
Speaker 2: It is delightful. I love hanging out with my polyamorous friends.
53:54
Speaker 2: And I've even asked them, I'm like, because for me,
53:56
Speaker 2: I'm like, that seems like a lot of emotional labor
53:59
Speaker 2: to to have so many partners. And maybe that's just
54:02
Speaker 2: a bias on my part.
54:04
Speaker 1: How do you schedule all these people?
54:07
Speaker 2: I did learn calendars, very important. I bet they are.
54:12
Speaker 2: They're like, we rely on our calendars for everything. We
54:16
Speaker 2: like color code the days. You think that's exactly what
54:20
Speaker 2: it is. I've seen the calendar.
54:21
Speaker 1: So sexy, like a four dimensional spreadsheet.
54:23
Speaker 2: My God. Right? I'm like, oh my gosh, is it
54:25
Speaker 2: a bunch of type A personalities coming together? You know what?
54:29
Speaker 2: Good for them.
54:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
54:30
Speaker 2: I use my calendar for like reminding myself when I
54:32
Speaker 2: need to be somewhere. And that's kind of about it.
54:36
Speaker 2: But it's very loving. I had one guy tell me
54:39
Speaker 2: because I asked him, I was like, how are you
54:41
Speaker 2: able to manage all that? And he's like, well, I
54:43
Speaker 2: have so much love to give. Like, I don't have
54:45
Speaker 2: a limited amount to give. And I was like, oh,
54:47
Speaker 2: my God, that was so sweet. And he I've seen,
54:51
Speaker 2: you know, when individuals are in poly relationships, they'll they're like,
54:56
Speaker 2: It's very friendly. Everyone gets along. There's really good communication
55:00
Speaker 2: and conversation. And they'll still have the hard conversations like
55:03
Speaker 2: you do in monogamous relationships. And they talk about boundaries
55:06
Speaker 2: and they talk about all of these different things. And
55:09
Speaker 2: if one person's getting overwhelmed, they'll speak to the other.
55:12
Speaker 2: And one of the key rules that in the polyamorous
55:15
Speaker 2: people I've met is that you don't talk about your
55:17
Speaker 2: other partner to the to one of the partners unless
55:21
Speaker 2: you guys are all in in like a like a
55:24
Speaker 2: in a situation where everyone's dating everyone, rather than one
55:27
Speaker 2: person having two partners. And then another person has a
55:29
Speaker 2: separate partner outside that, um, which I learned that term
55:32
Speaker 2: is called meta. That's the person's meta. And, um, but it's,
55:36
Speaker 2: it's really big, like everything else in alternative sex practice
55:40
Speaker 2: or alternative relationship practices, it's communication and it's still talking
55:44
Speaker 2: and it's still caring about that person. And a lot
55:47
Speaker 2: of people kind of like, will look down on polyamory
55:51
Speaker 2: because they're like, oh, you just want to cheat on
55:53
Speaker 2: your partner. You don't know how to be faithful, blah, blah, blah.
55:54
Speaker 2: And I'm like, these are some of the most loving
55:56
Speaker 2: and healthy relationships I've ever seen. Whereas like the monogamous
56:00
Speaker 2: person who is cheating on their partner every other week,
56:03
Speaker 2: maybe they should try doing anything else. Like that's clearly
56:07
Speaker 2: what they're doing is hurting someone else and they're just
56:09
Speaker 2: not caring about that. Whereas polyamorous people are caring about
56:12
Speaker 2: the person that they're with.
56:14
Speaker 1: So that's a healthy one. Good points. And I would say,
56:18
Speaker 1: you know, even in open relationships too, that to have
56:21
Speaker 1: that really healthy communication, checking in, is this okay with you?
56:25
Speaker 1: And also what do we do with feelings, right? Because
56:28
Speaker 1: even in consensual open relationships, things like jealousy, insecurity, a
56:33
Speaker 1: need for affirmation, validation, like checking in, like that needs
56:38
Speaker 1: to be part of it. And I will tell you
56:41
Speaker 1: that what I have seen that does concern me as
56:44
Speaker 1: a couples counselor, somebody who you know, a couple coming
56:48
Speaker 1: in to maybe talking about opening up their relationship, something
56:50
Speaker 1: like that. And when you really like dig in deeper,
56:55
Speaker 1: it's being driven by one person who's real motivated to
57:00
Speaker 1: open up a relationship. And the other person feels like
57:04
Speaker 1: they need to go along with it in order to
57:07
Speaker 1: maintain the relationship with their partner. But that's when it
57:12
Speaker 1: does actually start to take on this coercive, element for
57:16
Speaker 1: me because it's coming from a fearful place. It feels
57:21
Speaker 1: like they need to consent rather than it's something that
57:25
Speaker 1: they want.
57:27
Speaker 2: So that's 1000% coercion. That's consent has been removed because
57:32
Speaker 2: there is that component of fear. The presence of fear
57:35
Speaker 2: removes consent. So with that coercion being done of like, well,
57:40
Speaker 2: this marriage is never going to work out unless we
57:42
Speaker 2: open it up.
57:43
Speaker 1: Of course, that's a condition.
57:45
Speaker 2: Yeah. You've now put a condition on that. Both parties
57:48
Speaker 2: are not consenting. One person is not consenting to that.
57:52
Speaker 2: So that is a violation of boundaries. That is, in
57:55
Speaker 2: my opinion, that is abusive. If your partner's not comfortable
57:59
Speaker 2: with that, then you've got to figure that out. You
58:02
Speaker 2: either have to split up or you have to decide
58:04
Speaker 2: what is going on there. But you can't tell someone,
58:07
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave you or this relationship is not
58:08
Speaker 2: going to work unless I'm allowed to sleep with other people.
58:11
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And also, I mean, just there are could be
58:14
Speaker 1: so many other factors. You know, the financial control that
58:16
Speaker 1: you mentioned a while ago, if somebody is totally financially
58:20
Speaker 1: dependent on someone who now wants an open relationship, like,
58:23
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of complexity. And I'll also add,
58:28
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to that, like somebody who's
58:31
Speaker 1: being unfaithful to their partner, I think another way of
58:35
Speaker 1: thinking about it, it's not even the sexual activity itself or,
58:39
Speaker 1: you know, being involved with somebody else. Like, if it
58:42
Speaker 1: was consensual, like who cares in some ways, it's really
58:44
Speaker 1: more about that you were depriving your partner of the
58:49
Speaker 1: opportunity to engage in informed consent because they didn't know
58:53
Speaker 1: what you were doing. And would they still want to
58:56
Speaker 1: be with you if they did know what you were doing?
58:59
Speaker 1: It's like, that's the point around open communication. Yeah.
59:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And that's a really great point because removing
59:09
Speaker 2: informed consent, that's a huge problem. And if you truly
59:13
Speaker 2: care about your partner, don't you want to be comfortable
59:16
Speaker 2: knowing your partner is going to pick you no matter what?
59:18
Speaker 2: That's what a healthy relationship, not no matter what, obviously there's,
59:22
Speaker 2: you know, things there, but like, it's a choice. Loving
59:24
Speaker 2: each other is a choice and you need to know
59:27
Speaker 2: that other person to make that choice. And removing that
59:30
Speaker 2: information is taking away somebody else's choice and no one
59:34
Speaker 2: has the right to do that to another person.
59:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that that's maybe the through line
59:40
Speaker 1: through all of this. When we're thinking about coercive control
59:44
Speaker 1: versus consent or, you know, abusive relationships or even what
59:53
Speaker 1: we were just talking about, polyamory, non-monogamy, the through line
59:57
Speaker 1: is do you have all the information? Are you educated
1:00:01
Speaker 1: about what, not just what healthy looks like for other people,
1:00:06
Speaker 1: but taking some time to think through, what does it
1:00:08
Speaker 1: mean for me? What am I enthusiastically consenting to versus
1:00:14
Speaker 1: what am I not actually comfortable with? And I think
1:00:16
Speaker 1: that this is an exploratory process that develops over time.
1:00:20
Speaker 1: And I'll just say, and for the millionth time, especially
1:00:23
Speaker 1: as a young person, maybe just starting to navigate relationships,
1:00:28
Speaker 1: you know, late teens, early twenties, you don't have a
1:00:30
Speaker 1: lot of history. Many times people don't fully have the
1:00:33
Speaker 1: answers to some of these questions until they're much older.
1:00:36
Speaker 1: I would say later twenties, even into their thirties or beyond.
1:00:39
Speaker 1: And so just to be patient with yourself and notice
1:00:42
Speaker 1: what you like, what you don't and validate your own
1:00:46
Speaker 1: feelings and have that honestly be what you listen to
1:00:51
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, rather than like substituting
1:00:55
Speaker 1: someone else's feelings or judgment for your own and doing
1:01:00
Speaker 1: your research. And if something doesn't feel good, like honoring that.
1:01:06
Speaker 2: And being very kind to yourself, knowing that it's life
1:01:11
Speaker 2: is a learning process and it's a hard one and it's, it's,
1:01:14
Speaker 2: you're going to, make mistakes, you're going to be confused
1:01:17
Speaker 2: and being kind and understanding yourself and moving forward with
1:01:20
Speaker 2: that self-compassion, which is really hard for people. People are
1:01:23
Speaker 2: terrible at self-compassion.
1:01:24
Speaker 1: I know. We're going to beat ourselves up. Yeah.
1:01:28
Speaker 2: And just know that, like, if you are uncomfortable with
1:01:30
Speaker 2: something and you're confused about it, you're well within your
1:01:34
Speaker 2: right to talk about it. And if it's something that
1:01:36
Speaker 2: does need reporting and you want to report it, you
1:01:39
Speaker 2: can do that. It is your life. But, you know,
1:01:41
Speaker 2: listen to yourself and be soft with yourself.
1:01:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. Such good advice. what advice or perspective would you
1:01:48
Speaker 1: have for somebody listening to this? Who's maybe not so
1:01:52
Speaker 1: much listening for themselves, but cares very much about someone
1:01:58
Speaker 1: that they're worried they are in an abusive relationship or
1:02:02
Speaker 1: in a coercive, um, situation where there's harm being done,
1:02:09
Speaker 1: but they've, um, also kind of like drunk the Kool-Aid,
1:02:13
Speaker 1: you know.
1:02:13
Speaker 2: What I mean?
1:02:14
Speaker 1: And, um, What would you do there if this was
1:02:18
Speaker 1: your friend and you were worried that they were not OK?
1:02:22
Speaker 2: So one key thing is you cannot force someone to leave.
1:02:25
Speaker 2: They have to choose to do that on their own.
1:02:27
Speaker 2: And that's really hard for people to carry. And it's
1:02:31
Speaker 2: also having patience and keeping that line open. And there's
1:02:35
Speaker 2: always this fine line of walking like when it becomes
1:02:38
Speaker 2: too much for the friend who's witnessing it. Sometimes they
1:02:41
Speaker 2: want to cut off and I understand everyone has their
1:02:43
Speaker 2: boundaries and that's okay. But also if you're able to
1:02:46
Speaker 2: keep that line open, even if it's very small, so
1:02:50
Speaker 2: that they have that support if they do choose to leave.
1:02:53
Speaker 2: Having that openness there.
1:02:55
Speaker 1: So you're talking about like how stressful it can be
1:02:58
Speaker 1: to maybe have a friend who's not okay, but also
1:03:00
Speaker 1: not willing to do anything about it. And that, yeah,
1:03:03
Speaker 1: we could say, okay, so I'm going to limit my
1:03:05
Speaker 1: contact with this. Maybe let this friendship go. But what
1:03:07
Speaker 1: you're saying is be the lifeline. Yes.
1:03:10
Speaker 2: And it doesn't you don't have to be prominent. You
1:03:12
Speaker 2: still should take care of yourself.
1:03:14
Speaker 1: Of course.
1:03:14
Speaker 2: But I know that when I've talked to survivors, them
1:03:17
Speaker 2: having even that one friend, even if they don't talk
1:03:19
Speaker 2: every day, even if it's not a consistent friendship, knowing
1:03:21
Speaker 2: that they can call that person and be like, OK,
1:03:23
Speaker 2: I need help. And also understanding that being in an
1:03:27
Speaker 2: intimate partner violence relationship is really complex. And maybe they
1:03:31
Speaker 2: go back to the offender. And that's okay that this
1:03:35
Speaker 2: is their life and you're there to help them to
1:03:38
Speaker 2: the best of your ability, giving them referrals to services.
1:03:41
Speaker 2: So like telling them like, hey, why don't you check
1:03:44
Speaker 2: out the domestic violence hotline? They have a list of
1:03:47
Speaker 2: different things that might point out to the relationship or
1:03:51
Speaker 2: asking your friend like, hey, have you ever Googled intimate
1:03:53
Speaker 2: partner violence behaviors before? Because I find consistently across individuals
1:03:59
Speaker 2: who have survived intimate partner violence, at some point they've
1:04:02
Speaker 2: looked up the signs that I'm being abused? And so
1:04:06
Speaker 2: bringing up small things and also being really compassionate. And
1:04:09
Speaker 2: I understand it can be frustrating, but also knowing that
1:04:13
Speaker 2: they are also going through a hard time and being
1:04:15
Speaker 2: there for them when you can be. Yeah.
1:04:18
Speaker 1: And hey, let's do a plug right now for thehotline.org.
1:04:23
Speaker 1: This is a publicly funded free resource. It's available for everyone.
1:04:29
Speaker 1: The web address is thehotline.org. And on this site, you
1:04:36
Speaker 1: can chat or text with a counselor who has specialized
1:04:43
Speaker 1: training in domestic violence. They can connect you with resources locally.
1:04:48
Speaker 1: There's all kinds of information. You can take assessments, learn
1:04:52
Speaker 1: more about unhealthy relationship dynamics, signs of abusive relationships. power
1:04:58
Speaker 1: and control, and even to the point where they could
1:05:01
Speaker 1: help you make a safety plan, get you connected to
1:05:04
Speaker 1: shelters in the event that you really did need to
1:05:06
Speaker 1: get out of there, or also even just start the conversation,
1:05:10
Speaker 1: start educating yourself, even if you're not ready to do
1:05:13
Speaker 1: anything about it now. One of the most insidious things
1:05:16
Speaker 1: about these dynamics is that they make you question your
1:05:21
Speaker 1: own judgment and your own perceptions of reality. And so
1:05:24
Speaker 1: to get outside information in these moments for people like
1:05:28
Speaker 1: AJ from the hotline.org from some of the other websites
1:05:31
Speaker 1: that you mentioned, AJ is just so valuable because it's like, no,
1:05:35
Speaker 1: here's trustworthy information that can help you understand your own experience.
1:05:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Um, a couple other plugs would be rain.org.
1:05:44
Speaker 2: That's the, uh, I can.
1:05:46
Speaker 3: Never remember the full name right off the top of
1:05:48
Speaker 3: my head.
1:05:48
Speaker 2: Hang on. I pulled it up. I think it's the Rape, Abuse,
1:05:51
Speaker 2: Incest National. They also have a national headline and they
1:05:56
Speaker 2: focus on sexual violence and they put out some really
1:05:59
Speaker 2: great statistics. And then, of course, NCSFreedom.com, that's National Coalition
1:06:02
Speaker 2: for Sexual Freedom for anyone who's interested in learning more
1:06:05
Speaker 2: about the kink community and that sort of work. Definitely.
1:06:07
Speaker 1: Definitely. Okay, AJ, so I know we need to wrap
1:06:11
Speaker 1: up here, but please tell people more about your work
1:06:14
Speaker 1: and what you can do as an educator in their communities.
1:06:18
Speaker 1: Tell us more about that.
1:06:20
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I provide a lot of trainings. I love
1:06:24
Speaker 2: talking to people. I can do anything from a customized
1:06:27
Speaker 2: 30-minute training to a customized eight-hour training or multiple-day training.
1:06:31
Speaker 2: I cover pretty much everything from intimate partner violence, sexual violence,
1:06:35
Speaker 2: BDSM versus non-consensual violence, serial killers, serial offenders, sex offenders,
1:06:40
Speaker 2: technology abuse, pretty much anything related to what could be
1:06:44
Speaker 2: considered gender-based violence or violence against particular populations or really
1:06:48
Speaker 2: just that type, that group of violence. So please feel
1:06:51
Speaker 2: free to go to my website. It's www.greerresearchandconsulting.com. I can
1:06:57
Speaker 2: also do expert witness testimony for a variety of things.
1:07:00
Speaker 2: I'm happy to send people a copy of my CV.
1:07:03
Speaker 2: And as far as research goes, I'm always trying to
1:07:06
Speaker 2: grow research. I always look for people to partner with
1:07:08
Speaker 2: for research if they're interested in doing something like applied
1:07:11
Speaker 2: research as well. And while particularly my trainings can be
1:07:14
Speaker 2: focused on criminal justice, I train therapists. I can train
1:07:18
Speaker 2: community members if that's something they need. I've trained military before, SOAP.
1:07:22
Speaker 2: a lot of different diverse groups. And I will talk
1:07:25
Speaker 2: to anyone that is interested in listening. I love that.
1:07:28
Speaker 1: You're obviously so passionate about bringing these things out into
1:07:32
Speaker 1: the light that are not oftentimes part of the conversation,
1:07:36
Speaker 1: but bringing people trustworthy information so that they understand it.
1:07:39
Speaker 1: I'll also just do a quick reference. So AJ, we
1:07:43
Speaker 1: talked on my other podcast, Love, Happiness, and Success for Therapists,
1:07:48
Speaker 1: where we were talking specifically about this knowledge gap for
1:07:53
Speaker 1: many therapists who might be working with clients who are
1:07:55
Speaker 1: reporting having some of these experiences and for therapists to
1:07:58
Speaker 1: understand enough, particularly like BDSM or kink culture or norms
1:08:03
Speaker 1: in order to be a helpful guide for somebody navigating
1:08:07
Speaker 1: these spaces without over pathologizing, but also to be able
1:08:11
Speaker 1: to say to a client like, no, that doesn't sound right.
1:08:14
Speaker 1: And affirming, you know, their experience of being in a
1:08:17
Speaker 1: coercive or manipulative or unsafe situation because, again, it's not
1:08:23
Speaker 1: always very obvious if we just look at the behaviors
1:08:25
Speaker 1: on the surface without understanding the deeper dynamics. Okay. And
1:08:29
Speaker 1: so all the education. So GreerConsulting.org.
1:08:34
Speaker 2: GreerResearchandConsulting.com.
1:08:36
Speaker 1: GreerResearchandConsulting.com. Okay.
1:08:39
Speaker 2: You can also find me on LinkedIn or on Instagram.
1:08:42
Speaker 2: I finally, my Gen Z marketing friend was like.
1:08:45
Speaker 1: We're doing this.
1:08:46
Speaker 2: You have to.
1:08:48
Speaker 1: Well, AJ, thank you so much for your time today
1:08:50
Speaker 1: and for sharing your expertise and perspective with the audience here. Love, happiness,
1:08:54
Speaker 1: and success. It's always such a pleasure. I mean, it's
1:08:56
Speaker 1: very interesting.
1:08:58
Speaker 2: I'm always happy to talk about it.
1:08:59
Speaker 4: And I'm very appreciative that you had me back on
1:09:02
Speaker 4: the podcast and on this podcast and I'm like yes
1:09:05
Speaker 4: I get to talk more this is just a really
1:09:07
Speaker 4: great podcast and I've sent all my friends to it
1:09:08
Speaker 4: I'm like hey check this out like.
1:09:11
Speaker 2: I think it's fun to listen to.
1:09:12
Speaker 1: Thank you so much thank you What an amazing conversation.
1:09:31
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I thought that was
1:09:33
Speaker 1: so interesting, right? And something that I haven't really heard
1:09:36
Speaker 1: discussed in other places. So I'm just so glad to
1:09:39
Speaker 1: be able to bring this to you. The headline here
1:09:41
Speaker 1: for me, I don't know, I hope for you too,
1:09:44
Speaker 1: is that healthy relationships are always built on freedom, trust,
1:09:50
Speaker 1: and the ability to make fully informed decisions about what
1:09:54
Speaker 1: you want to participate in, consent, but also the ability
1:09:58
Speaker 1: to be fully yourself, meaning the ability to say yes
1:10:02
Speaker 1: or no, and also know what your limits are. And
1:10:05
Speaker 1: so I'll just say if this conversation brought something up
1:10:08
Speaker 1: for you, take a moment to reflect and ask yourself,
1:10:12
Speaker 1: do I feel safe, respected, and empowered in my relationships?
1:10:17
Speaker 1: And if you're like, I'm not sure, just know that
1:10:21
Speaker 1: that might be worthy at the very least of additional exploration.
1:10:25
Speaker 1: I will also say that listening to this conversation might
1:10:30
Speaker 1: have put you in contact with an awareness that you
1:10:32
Speaker 1: have experienced something that was harmful, damaging, or even traumatic
1:10:36
Speaker 1: for you, and that there might be some after effects
1:10:40
Speaker 1: of that. And also to just recognize and respect that
1:10:45
Speaker 1: and know that There's a way to work through this
1:10:47
Speaker 1: with a trusted professional who will not judge you and
1:10:50
Speaker 1: can help you process what happened and use the experience
1:10:54
Speaker 1: as a way of being more self-aware, more resilient, and
1:10:59
Speaker 1: more able to navigate these situations in the future. And
1:11:03
Speaker 1: that's what I would want for you. Certainly, if you'd
1:11:06
Speaker 1: like to do any of this work with one of
1:11:08
Speaker 1: the therapists in my network at Growing Self, you are
1:11:11
Speaker 1: so invited. In particular, I would encourage you to connect
1:11:15
Speaker 1: with one person on my team who's a close colleague.
1:11:17
Speaker 1: I've worked with her for years. Her name is Dori,
1:11:21
Speaker 1: and she has substantial specialized training, education, and experience in
1:11:26
Speaker 1: the realm of sexuality. You can scroll back through my
1:11:30
Speaker 1: feed for recent interviews with Dori where she talks about
1:11:33
Speaker 1: different facets of this, but she would be a fantastic
1:11:37
Speaker 1: person to talk about, particularly if you are incorporating alternative
1:11:42
Speaker 1: sexual practices into your lifestyle, or if you or your
1:11:46
Speaker 1: partner want to engage in polyamory, open relationships, or if
1:11:52
Speaker 1: you have been in situations where there were some dynamics
1:11:56
Speaker 1: at play that put you into one of these vulnerable
1:11:59
Speaker 1: positions and you're trying to sort through what you're comfortable
1:12:02
Speaker 1: with and what you're not in terms of your intimacy.
1:12:05
Speaker 1: So if you'd like to speak with Dori, come to growingself.com
1:12:08
Speaker 1: forward slash Dori. That is D-O-R-I. Or more generally speaking,
1:12:13
Speaker 1: you can come to growingself.com and just schedule a free
1:12:16
Speaker 1: consultation with any clinician on my team to talk a
1:12:19
Speaker 1: little bit more about yourself, your hopes and goals, and
1:12:21
Speaker 1: find out whether or not they're the right person to
1:12:23
Speaker 1: help you. All right, you guys, that is a wrap.
1:12:27
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for spending this time today with me
1:12:29
Speaker 1: and AJ. I hope this was helpful for you. And again, please, please,
1:12:32
Speaker 1: please pass this on to anyone you think might also
1:12:36
Speaker 1: benefit from hearing the information that AJ shared, particularly if
1:12:40
Speaker 1: you're worried about them. All right, that's all for today.
1:12:43
Speaker 1: I'll be back in touch next time with another episode
1:12:45
Speaker 1: of love, happiness, and success.
1:12:59
Speaker 2: Thank you.