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M.J. James on How to Identify & Overcome Burnout · The Daily Writer

• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hey my friend, welcome to this weekend edition episode of the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: I am excited today to bring you another conversation in our mental health series for writers.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: My good friend MJ James is a member of our Daily Writer community, and she's also a mom and a ghostwriter.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: But she's also recently built an amazing podcast and website called The Burned Out Business Mom.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: And even though she is focused on helping moms specifically, she spent a lot of time thinking about and building a platform to help people with burnout.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that is something that all writers probably face at some point, particularly in the last couple years, which has been rough for a lot of people.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: So again, even though she's focusing on moms specifically, what she has to teach us applies to everybody, young or old, man or woman, no matter what your situation.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, which was actually one of our daily writer community calls, MJ shares the signs of burnout, why it's important to figure out the root cause of burnout, why you need to protect your time, how to get support, and much more.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're feeling burned out, discouraged, frustrated, or you just want to quit, this episode is definitely for you.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my conversation with the amazing MJ James.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, welcome to this session from uh March uh 2022 of the Daily Rider.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am thrilled today that our very own MJ James is joining us to talk about burnout and writing, a topic that probably a lot of us are familiar with, not just because writing is something that takes a lot of emotional energy, but the last couple of years have been, shall we say, interesting in the world, coming through lots of change and lots of cultural um uh excitement happening.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe excitement isn't the right word to use there, but lots of things happening in the world and now dealing with an overseas military conflict and a pandemic and lots of transitions in people's lives.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Burnout is something that we deal with a lot.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, MJ, I'm thrilled that you can join us for the session.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna uh take maybe like 25, 30 minutes or so, and I've got a few questions that that we're gonna have a conversation with, and then we want to do some QA as well.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like a good approach to everybody.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me, Kent.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited to talk to you all.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, awesome.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's dive in here.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what exactly is burnout?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we all have different ideas, probably what that means for us, but walk us through a little bit of what is burnout and how do we know if we're burned out.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, burnout, it really does look different for every person.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's generally a sense of just feeling overwhelmed or feeling very unhappy, feeling like you're taking on too much, feeling like things you once loved, you no longer find enjoyment in them.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just feeling like every little interruption to your day is that it's an interruption.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like it, you're it sets your teeth on edge and your hair stands up and your body clenches up.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's really just um, it can be oftentimes a physical reaction that you're having to being overloaded by things that are causing stress within you.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: And for a lot of us, you know, who get the pleasure of doing things that we enjoy as our as our life's work, um, it's hard to recognize that, right?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're sitting back and you're thinking, well, I'm I'm I my business is doing what I love to do.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love to write.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: So why am I moody?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I cranky?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't I concentrate?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't I sleep at night?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why do I have this pain in my neck that just won't go away?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, so you start to ask all these questions and generally your body starts to break down, not just from your brain, but you have physical reactions that associate with burnout.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so it's really important to recognize those signs for yourself and recognize what those triggers are, which can be things that you loved yesterday that are all of a sudden you're not loving now.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's just the symptom.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not actually what the problem is.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: You have to get to what the root cause of the problem is in order to be able to understand why you're not able to enjoy the things you were enjoying.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Why are do things feel like they're out of balance?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you feel overwhelmed?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you feel like you never have any time?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you waking up at hours that you were once sleeping straight through?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like those kinds of questions you really have to dig in and answer.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it does look different for everybody.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happens actually before I I asked that question?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got, let me see, besides myself, one, two, three, and MJ, one, two, three, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: We've got seven other folks on this call.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: How many of you have felt in the last let's let's say six months, two years?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: How many of you have felt burned out on some type of level?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think almost, I think almost everybody raises their hand.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a pretty common thing, it seems like.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: What happens?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I guess before we dive into some maybe some root causes and how to address this, what actually happens if we don't deal with burn with burnout?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like if we just let this continue on?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: If we don't take care of the symptoms or the signs, what might a train wreck look like if we don't address this in our lives?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's usually um it's usually health first.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: It causes a lot of health issues, a lot of, you know, simple things from again, you know, oh, you know, my back is really tense.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: It can start there, and then all of a sudden now your blood pressure is high, or you're having panic attacks, or you're super anxious about things.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can't concentrate on stuff you used to concentrate on.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then it can trickle down into your relationships.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're moody, now you're snapping at everybody, you're not present in those moments where you're sitting around with, you know, your best friends and they're all having a great time and laughing, and you're just cranky and irritated, and you can't concentrate on what they're saying.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can't focus on what's happening.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: You you leave there wondering, why could why couldn't I enjoy that moment?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody else was having a great time.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I feel like I wasn't even there?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: How long was I there?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: A couple hours?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't feel like that, you know.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you find yourself having all of these other effects.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it it stretches from, you know, a physical health issue and can trickle all the way into relationship issues.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think there are some specific uh things about what we do as writers that contribute more to burnout than let's say other types of professions?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think as writers, sometimes, and Julia Cameron goes over this in the artist way really well.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: We forget to take care of the creative side of ourselves that fuels everything we do, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Even if we're writing, you know, a piece of nonfiction, um, you still need that create, that creative draw to it.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: You still have to be able to perform with the beautiful magic that is words, right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be able to put them together and get people engaged and get people to want to read.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when we forget to take care of that creative side, because we're so busy sitting down trying to pump out the work.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: When we forget to step away and go color for a little bit or go outside and walk or play a game or do something that fuels that creative side, I think that the burnout for us, it does absolutely affect what we're trying to create.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: We can go back and read something that we thought was good and go, whoa, that is so boring.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just bored myself reading that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Why why am I why am I getting bored now?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I thought that was good yesterday.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what happened.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think we do forget to take care of our creative side.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it's something that um, you know, a lot of people don't necessarily need to do, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like my husband's in law enforcement, he doesn't really need to take care of his creative side.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: What he does every day does not require him to be a creative funnel.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: But what we do every day, we are required to be creative funnels.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're not fueling that side, you know, burnout happens fast.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: You're not creating anymore.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Your imagination is going stagnant because you've been staring at a screen and staring at a keyboard for how many hours of the day, and that's not exciting, no matter how many pretty colors we can make the keyboard now, right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So and my son had he's had those some of those over the years.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the keyboards that light up and yeah, and all the cool colors and which are fun, you know.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: I confess those are fun.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure it helps me actually get any work done, but it's free to look at.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely it is.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: What are the what would you say are some of the reasons that we get into this place?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in those moments where we feel stressed, anxious, burned out, depressed, irritable, all those kinds of things.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: How do how do we get to that place?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not like any of us want to be there or we intend to be there, but we wake up some sometimes and we just go, oh, wait a minute.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'm wasting my whole life in front of a computer.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting work done, I'm writing stuff.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have clients, I'm, you know, have income from this or whatever.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: But how do we actually get to this place where things are just not in a good place?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of it, and as much as I hate to say this, because I know that when I'm in burnout, I don't want to listen to this, but it's habits.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to hear that.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to hear that anything I'm doing is contributing on purpose to making me burn out, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants to hear that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that it really is habits.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for um writers specifically, you know, we talk about protecting time to write, we talk about that, but we don't often talk about protecting time to do the other things that create the balance that we need to continue to create.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that that's a, you know, it's kind of something that if you're not aware of it, you're gonna find yourself burning out really fast.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are aware of it, sometimes you're still gonna burn out if you're not paying attention to the habits that you have and what you're cultivating each day within your lifestyle to make sure that that creative side is maintained and that you're not just sitting down trying to crank out 10, 15 hours of work five, six, seven days a week.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, you're going from morning through night.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: You haven't looked at the sun in days.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: It happens.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: We get on deadlines, we have to meet, you know, some of us are working with clients.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: We have client deadlines, we have publisher deadlines, we have personal deadlines, we have personal goals.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so all of that can can be a lot of pressure when you're working on timelines that maybe you set a little bit, but maybe sometimes those timelines are set for you, depending on time, you know, upon the type of work that you're doing.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think it's so important to have those habits mapped out for you, to have the people, your support system included in those habits, so that when they see you pulling off that habit, they can turn around and be like, hey, you know, you haven't seen the sun in two days.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: It might be time to shut the computer and stand outside.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, like for writers, a lot of us, we've had this conversation many times in Daily Writer.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us are introverts.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're perfectly fine staying inside, not talking to anybody.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like cool.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're let's be honest, it's true.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, but there's a balance to that because yeah, that's great that I want to, you know, be one of those creepy, reclusive writers in my house at the same time.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's not really fueling the other side of my brain that needs to be taken care of.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: So um maintaining and like the habits that work for your lifestyle and and working in that time to not just produce, but to protect the creative side of yourself, very, very important.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as we're talking about kind of signs of burnout, this I'm sort of making fun of myself, but I'm kind of not.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if any of you have had this experience where your spouses come home, you know.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: For those of us who work from home, your spouse or somebody has come into your house and they look at you and go, you didn't actually wear that today, did you?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you go, Yeah, sort of like unaware that you look like a complete slob, you know.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: At least like I'm like, well, I put on a shirt for Zoom.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I may have pajama pants on the whole day.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, maybe that's a sign that we need to get out of the house and have a more sort of normal existence, I guess.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now I do want to think we're all doing it, right?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: We all do it to some point.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody sees me from the way waist down.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, I actually cares if these sweats have been on for five days.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're like the sweats are walking around the house by themselves, which is not a good sign.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I do want to dive into before we get into our QA, I want to dive into um some solutions here, obviously, because we all recognize these signs.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've all been there.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we we are there on a consistent basis, who knows?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I am kind of curious your thoughts on this because I know that you are are putting together some resources and a platform and some other stuff related to the burned out business mom.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious if you think there is a difference between how men and women experience or deal with burnout.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never actually even thought about this question, so I have no idea.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm just curious what what are maybe some from what you've seen unique things about how men and women interface with this whole issue, even if there is a difference, and which I don't even know that there is.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm seeing it a little bit, not necessarily in what triggers, because I really do think that that is different for most people.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we we can all relate to someone saying, I feel burnt out, but what makes me burnt out might be completely different than what makes you burnt out.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's, you know, my triggers for those things are very, very different.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know that that's a that's a male-female thing.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I am finding that men, you know, and I think we talked about this on a call a while ago where we're talking about men and loneliness.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, men are a lot less apt to have that dialogue.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: My girlfriends will call me up and they are like, I am so burnt out.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what to do.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: What should I do?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I go?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do I get through this?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're so much easier to talk to than, you know, we we had a really good friend of ours.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and he was working, working, working, working, working like a crazy person, had a really high-end job.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And we kept asking him, like, you doing all right, you doing okay?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because from an outside perspective, I was burnt out just listening to what his day was like.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And he kept saying, No, no, he was fine, he was fine, he was fine.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: He up to like one day he just went into work and was like, I quit and was done 80 hours a week working for 20 plus years.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, nope, I'm done.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because he was so completely burnt out in every aspect of his life.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's been about almost a year since he's out of that job, and he still says, I'm not recovered.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not recovered.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I still have so much more work to do.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So he waited so long.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: He did, he really did.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what he says to me when we talk about it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, I waited way too long.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: I knew the signs, I knew I was tired.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I could feel them building.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, you know, I saw my relationship suffering.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: I saw that friends that I was so close with, I barely talked to.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, I could see it happening, but I just did not want to get to what the root cause of the problem was.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I so I didn't shift anything and I didn't change anything.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: And when I finally was done, I was done.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like he could not even envision trying to recover and keep that job that he had once loved.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for men, you know, awareness of that and then reaching out to somebody before that breaking point is really important.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like females are more um, I don't know if it's aware or just more comfortable kind of, because it is kind of admitting that you need that you need help, that you need support.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that men are built a little bit more solidly.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: They'd like to be quiet about that more.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Where females are just kind of like, yeah, I'm a hot mess.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Who's who's with me?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Anybody?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're all together, we're all hot messes together.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when guys are all like, no, I've got this under control.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm fine.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm taking care of it all.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's good.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and I get that and I respect it.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's a solid, solid reasoning.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: However, you know, um, I think that they don't reach out for those resources or even, you know, just to their their spouse or their partner or their buddy to be like, dude, look, let's go shoot hoops.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I just need 20 minutes of quiet so I can refocus on my own self.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a that's a big, big difference I'm seeing between men and and women as I'm evolving this whole platform and talking more with people.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: It almost makes me think there should be kind of like an equitable thing to what you're doing, you know, the burned out business guy or business dad or something.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've known, and it's and I'm sure everybody has, I've known so many men who just everything seems fine, and then all of a sudden they just completely self-destruct.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's through that they get into some kind of massive train wreck, and you're like, where did that come from?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in fact, and I'm not, I really don't want to go down this whole thing and get into all this, but I think that is what we saw at the the Oscars Sunday night, where you have a guy who seems like he's on top of the world and he just gets up and slaps somebody in in front of millions of people, which is a sign that something is really, really wrong in somebody's life.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying that to to criticize Will Smith necessarily, but I'm saying all of us have probably done similar things where you just in a moment it builds up and you just snap because we're burned out or because we're stressed, or you know, something very, very something is very, very like wrong on the inside.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden you just so we've got to take care of this, this issue of being burned out and and not taking care of our our internal life.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um super important.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's maybe take a few minutes and are there some solutions that you can walk us through, some habits or things that we can do to help to help take us down a different pathway than self-destruction and burnout and all the things that we that we can easily do as writers, but places where we don't want to go.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, one of the first things that we all forget sometimes are the people in our own homes, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or our immediate circle of friends.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: We kind of overlook them as a sounding board for what is going on.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, having that dialogue with the people that you like, even with my children, I'll say to them, okay, listen, if you feel like mommy's answering you and I'm short and I'm quick and please let me know.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I want to know that because that's not how I enjoy giving my answers.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and I and I that's one of often for me, that's one of the first signs of like, I'm losing my patience, I'm getting too tired, I've been working too much.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I said I get quick, not quick tempered, because I I don't really get quick tempered, but just my answers kind of, they're kind of like fine, whatever.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like I get very short um and quippy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I do that with my husband too.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: So having that dialogue with them was my for me, was a really big game changer because they're the people I live with.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're watching me work.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: I work from home.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so having them just kind of tap me on the shoulder and be like, okay, it's time.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like we need to refresh your brain, like you need to go do something else, you know.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's really, I think, so important.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Listening to those friends, listening to those people that you live with.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yes, the kids absolutely will give you the straight up truth.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: There is no filter for them.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really helpful, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I really like when my 17-year-old kind of lets me know that I'm hitting that point where I'm starting to get a little cranky.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be cranky mom.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: I want to have pleasant relationships inside our household.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: So um counting on your circle, whatever that circle is, your closest friends, let them be your mirror.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let them tell you, hey, it looks like you're getting a little off track.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that's important.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think for um like groups like this in our daily writer group, as we're all talking with one another, if we're starting to notice something with a fellow writer, being able to have that dialogue and being like, hey, what's up?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Everything good?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're we're good over there, checking in on you.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, those little check-ins with people, really important.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then for combating, you know, just I don't know, just burnout in general.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: I always think about that story from um Victor Hugo about uh the Hunchback of Notre Dame, the guy who wrote the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you guys know this.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: It was written about in like books like Atomic Habits and stuff like that, where it's um it talks about procrastination.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so Victor Hugo was given five months to write the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: That seems like it's so easy.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you guys have ever seen The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really a thin book, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So five months, write this book, great.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: He missed his five-month deadline and was a year past that.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And his publisher was losing patience, and they were finally like, okay, you've been procrastinating, you're not producing, you got to get this written.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: So Victor Hugo finally locks himself.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the fall of night of the fall of 1830.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so he locks himself into his room, his wife hides his clothes, he does not leave his room other than to sleep and eat.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he, by let's see, he starts in like the end of the fall, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Very beginning of like very beginning of the winter.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: By December 20th, he was granted an extension to February, but he actually wrote the last page on January 20th with his last little bit of ink, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Finishes it up just early enough so that he can avoid the fees that they're going to start charging him.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of people use that story about procrastination and they talk about it and they're like, well, you know, this is how you avoid procrastination.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: But for right Writers, I think it's important to think about that story and say to yourself, well, was it procrastination or was it productive downtime?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: It might have been maybe too long of a productive downtime, a year and five months.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I think remembering to give yourself productive downtime as a writer is super, super important for us to not burn out.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: You have to give yourself that productive downtime, that time that you are, you know, walking away from the writing, walking away from the production.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's a day, maybe it's a weekend, maybe it's a week, whatever you need to help avoid that burnout.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you find yourself just sitting there and you're, and I'm sure you guys have experienced this because I know I have, I have.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like rereading the same sentence.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm trying to that one sentence for like an hour because I'm like, I can make that one small sentence better.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: I've got to write, I don't know, 30,000 other words, but this one sentence right here, I need to concentrate for the next 10 hours.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like totally unproductive.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing absolutely nothing.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: But just sitting there in that space for that long of a time, you're burning yourself out.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're adding a stress level.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Your anxiety is going up.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that you're not producing is going up.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to look at it for you know hours from now and be like, oh, I got nothing accomplished.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're going to be upset with yourself.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And there's going to be a whole level of negativity that's completely unproductive and aiding in a burnout.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think being aware of those situations and using productive downtime as writers is super, super, super important.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, I'll go back to Julia Cameron's The Artist Way.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't done that book, if you haven't read that book, if you're not familiar with that book, and you're a writer in any way, shape, or form, get that book, go through it, reference back to it.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: I reference to it all the time.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've been a full-time writer for two and a half years now, and I've opened it three times since that point.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not including all the years before that when I was a freelancer working part-time.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I reference it all the time because it really does highlight the importance of taking the time to fuel your creative side.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And when you can remember that piece and you can remember to work that into your daily habits, that burnout becomes a much smaller window.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: You can really, really start to see when you're not fueling.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: You can really feel it way ahead of time before you hit that point where you're like breaking down.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really break down now with my writing because I recognize when I'm sitting here spinning my wheels or when it feels stressful, when it feels like work.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, when I'm doing client work and I'm like, oh, I'm kind of exhausted.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a little drained.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've been at this for how many hours?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can recognize those signs now a lot easier because I fuel my creative side and I take productive downtime.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's worked into my regular daily habits.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's really important.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she has a practice on I'm sure many of you are familiar with called um morning pages.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like a journey, it's a very simple journaling practice.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: She says, write three long hand pages in the morning about whatever you want.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't reread them, you know, for free for a few years, if ever.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And about a year ago, I was at a coffee shop and uh and I don't do morning pages every day, but I do it, I'd say intermittently, and just started writing, and I didn't know what to write about.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there were these two guys who were talking kind of loud, just probably like 15 feet away in the coffee shop.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and I was really kind of annoyed by that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just started writing about that, and then I just went on and on about how irritated I was about these guys, and it dawned on me that I was like, wow, like that's this is not really healthy.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so funny because that practice that she talks about in that book of Morning Pages, when you just do that, it brings up all the sludge sort of in your soul, and it has a way of of just making you very self-aware.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the book is great, it's really, really great, but it's also kind of dangerous because once you go down that path, it's kind of like going into the basement of your soul a little bit.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do you really want to crack open that door and see all the junk that's down there?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because you better be prepared for all the stuff like in our psyche that just kind of bubbles up.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: But we have to get that stuff out, you know, to be to really be healthy.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: You do.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I that and that's another piece of it too.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like we keep all this stuff inside of our own.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: I know I'm like a tremendous overthinker that aids in my burnout all the time.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot keep that information inside my brain.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I do that now.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'll sit my husband down.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, all right, we're gonna have an overthink session right now, and I'm just gonna verbal diarrhea all over you so that it's out in the universe and then it's not in my head.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it stays in my head, I'm not sleeping, it's in my writing.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's and this none of this is productive information.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not helping anything.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go and rewrite it, I'm gonna rip it out, I'm gonna throw it out.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, I think stuff like that, like the morning pages, super important to get all of that caca out.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nice censoring.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I've never I've never heard the word caca uttered on this in this group before.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a new one.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Being being as a group, we're we're you know, since we're a group of writers, we have all kinds of words.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So so nice, nice.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is really, really good.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's do some QA here and just some discussion.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is a obviously a topic with a lot of different pieces to it that can go a lot of a lot of different directions.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious, um, how do you all respond to this?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: What are what are your thoughts?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: How are you dealing with this issue of burnout in your own life?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_08: Hey MJ, great, great job.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_08: I'm glad you're tackling this because it's so huge.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_08: And every one of us, I guess.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a really, really huge topic.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_08: I, you know, I went back to remembering some huge, you know, I had a huge burnout in my professional life.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_08: And uh, and same thing, you know, big physical symptoms, lots of things going on there.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_08: But I I was curious about your insights regarding kind of the whole person, meaning there's a physical aspect, your your emotional, mental aspect, and then your spiritual uh life.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_08: And so we talk about balance and things.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_08: Um, you know, I just as you as you attack the issue of burnout, how you know, are there insights you have regarding treating that as a as a whole person, the whole person, and not just, you know, just the mental aspect or yeah, absolutely.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's so important to understand the connection that all of it has, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: If if we didn't need all of those pieces, our bodies would function in a completely different way.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I really do think that attacking, you know, and again, it's different for every person because the triggers are different for every person and you know, their lifestyles are different.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, different reasons bring them to that point of burnout or breakdown.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I think finding, you know, I always say like I like to empower clarity when I work with a lot of my clients, right?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: I really want to empower them to find the clarity in each aspect of their life that's throwing things off balance.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't mean that your whole life needs to look like an equal, you know, pizza pie here.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it means that, you know, do you have your health balanced, whatever that looks like for you?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are you doing the habits that are that are in your health's best interest?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um mentally, are you taking care of your mental?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Are you taking care of your work life?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Are you taking care of your relationship life?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's so many different pieces of it, and it always does look different.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: But at the crux of it all, if you're not working to make sure that those pieces are as aligned as possible so that you feel like you can handle the life and the lifestyle that you have, then you're gonna constantly hit these walls of, you know, I think that we all get a little bit burned out and a little bit is okay, but feeling that overwhelming, I've got to quit my job, I've got to pack a bag and up and leave, like, you know, or or sitting in a hospital room because you just had a heart attack.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the things you want to avoid, those big, tremendous moments.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have to pull these pieces and aspects of your life all together.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, I personally believe in God.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a really big, you know, I give a lot over to God and I let Him rule my life.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm finding actually with a lot of different coaches that I talk to that deal with burnout, most of them pull in a spiritual angle.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whatever that looks like for that individual person that they're working with.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of them do find that um that spiritual angle comes, it it can both cause turmoil and cause peace.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so helping, you know, bring that peace in as well is really, really important.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's balancing all of it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_08: You know, just a quick comment recognizing our own person, personal character defects.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_08: Um, for instance, my own fear of what other people think for years, uh, my own personal, I'll I'll call it dishonesty, but but I'm not willing, you know, when us guys have throw up that shield of I'm good, you know, uh, no problem, I got this, right?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, even though we're just like about to break under the burden.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_08: And so there's an element of pride to I I'm speaking to myself, you know, there's an element of pride there with guys that we you know, and depending on the community you run with, right?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_08: Uh you can you can just you can see it in our commercials, but wise a commercial, you know, something terrible happens.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_08: I'm good.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_08: Uh anyway, but you know, when I was so the idea of uh long distance running, ultra marathoning, or this through hiking business of going 20 miles a day forever.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_08: Um, you some of those are real realities, and you have to fuel yourself ahead of time.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_08: In other words, every hour I've got to be eating something before I get if I wait till I'm hungry, it's too late.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_08: I've already I'm on a bunk, you know, in a race.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_08: You've got to be fueling ahead of the bunk.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_08: So that that's that idea, right, of staying ahead of that.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_08: And then recovery, you know, recovering afterward, there's recovery drinks and things that you enable you to get up the next day to do it again.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_08: So, what are our practices even to recover?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_08: Um, so there's a lot of good as you do that, it's kind of fun to look at some of those people who do some of those endurance type things and their habits to know, even though that's extreme, it's kind of a parallel to our um, you know, it is writing life.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're so, so right.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for sharing that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's a lot of honesty that you just shared.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate that.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you're there is a lot of parallels with stuff like that.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're I was talking earlier in a different call with a running coach, and he was drawing parallels to you know what he has to establish and what he has to do just in those races to kind of what you need to do every day in life.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: There can be some times of uncertainty, right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're not going to know every piece of the hill that you're running, but prepping for certain things, you can do that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's within your capability to do that.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: MJ, I want to thank you for this, um, for tackling this.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we can feel your passion for the subject.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh thank you.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned balance several times, and since January, I've been um caregiving for my mother, who I brought back from Louisiana to Texas, and I found myself caregiving.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I have my family, and then my possible journey organization, and burnout was terribly uh attacking me, and I cried out to God, and he gave me two words.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: One is balance, and the other is boundary.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I have had to do both, and setting the boundaries has actually helped me to have a balanced life again.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: So uh thank you so much again for sharing this.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, thank you so much.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that you're absolutely right.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Though that boundaries pull into your whole habits, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: You have to you have to know where you want to spend your time, how you enjoy your time, what you need to protect, and what you just need to say, not today.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, appreciate where you are, but I'm not gonna do that today.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's that piece is hard.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think people struggle with boundaries a lot.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for bringing that up.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Anybody out?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_06: One of the things that I do, um, like this last October, I ended up in the ICU.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_06: I was and a lot of it had to do with um like the burnout stuff that led to contributed to that.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_06: And it took me months, like just the last couple of weeks, I feel like my energy is back and I'm you know, I'm back to where I was before.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_06: And people are have made comments like, hey, you look a whole lot better.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_06: I'm like, Well, I feel better.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_06: Um but it it can really hit you if you don't take good care of yourself.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_06: And so I realized during a lot of that that I had to like to talk about balance of boundaries, I had to put things in place and say, no, I'm not doing this anymore.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_06: I'm handing this over to someone else, or I'm referring out, or you know, whatever it may be.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_06: And I have to bring in nonverbal activities because I I live in a world of words.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_06: It's all words all the time.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_06: And so there are times that I'm like, my brain just wants to flip-flop words and get things scrambled.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_06: I'm like, okay, it's time to take a break when when I notice those things.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_06: So I do um I'm I'm not an artist, I'm not a perfect like I can't make it look on paper like it looks in my head.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_06: So I get really frustrated.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_06: So I had to reframe and use different words.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_06: So I play with acrylic paint on paper.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_06: I play around with my flute and my tongue drum.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_06: So if I say it that way, I don't feel like I have to produce any results.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_06: I can just have fun.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_06: So um if um someday if you guys want to do a session where we do some acrylic pouring.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_06: If you guys have ever looked at acrylic pouring or fluid art, um I would love to do a session with you guys on that.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_06: It's one of those things where you can't be perfectionistic.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_06: Um you can make it do certain things, but for the most part, it does what it wants to do, and it's so much fun.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's super awesome.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: See you do your artist dates.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Good job.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's important.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_07: It is a big relief.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_07: But you just talk about stress is kind of funny.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_07: I was writing some short stories and I was reading them to a person each week, and uh and and then all of a sudden the person started calling me and saying saying, Where's my short story this week?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_07: And my mind just kind of like uh uh shut down after it was like it it now became a job.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_07: At first it was fun, you know, it was fun.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_07: My imagination was flowing to share these short stories, but then all of a sudden they started expecting one every week.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_07: And it was like, oh my god, now I'm now I'm like I'm under pressure.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_07: So it was like uh I haven't written one for three weeks now, and they keep going, where's that short story?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_07: Where's that short story?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_07: So it's funny how your mind sometimes just uh kind of shuts down when it comes to having the having the pressure, the timeline, the timetable.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's so true.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, you know, I spoke to someone the other day who's not a writer and wants to start um sharing some stories, you know, within her business.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: And she straight out said to me, if you tell me I have to do this with a fixed timeline, I'm not doing it.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, I I it will never work for me.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, it just seems too big.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: It just seems like too much of a job, and I don't want to do it.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, so we don't have to do that.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: We'll just do it the way it works for you.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's all.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you just tell me what you're thinking?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just give me one thing that you were telling me, one story, just share one story with me that you were thinking about.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just talk about that.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so like when you when you set those things smaller, it seems easier, but when you're pressured to perform, gosh, it gets scary.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Super scary.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And don't you think that's that's an important thing to remember about this whole thing is that things that sort of trigger us, you know, things that that burn me out are a lot of social interaction.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly like if I have five Zoom calls in a day, or if I have a bunch of client calls in a day, like I'm just mentally exhausted.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or like going to big social gatherings in person, that stuff really, really wears me out quickly.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: But other people that energizes, so something that I that I wrestle with sometimes is I have to remember that the things that burn me out aren't things that burn everybody else out necessarily.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and vice versa.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I yeah, and so Jennifer asks, do we all know our triggers?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's really good.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Self-awareness seems really important with this.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're not self-aware, then we keep doing things that burn us out and we feel guilty because we don't find pleasure in going to lots of social things or going to a lot of meetings or whatever.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's a great question.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's true, yeah.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: You definitely have to get to the root of what what the problem is because you can't recognize it to avoid it if you don't know what that is.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_06: Umj, are you familiar with Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know what?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: I was just reading on that last week.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Share with us.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Share with us.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_06: So um it's based on, you know, are you more um like living up to your own internal expectations versus other people's?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_06: And she has the um the four quadrants, like the one that I have find that tends to burn out the most are obligers.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_06: And those are the people that will meet all the expectations of the people around them, their boss, their spouse, you know, whatever.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and then let their own internal, like I expect this of myself, but then let that slide at the you know, like taking care of other people at the expense of taking care of their own expectations.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_06: So if we're giving, giving, giving and not refilling our cup, then we'll we'll burn out faster than anything.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_06: And that type tends to do that more than the other types do.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_05: Very well said, very well said, and I think Jen, I think that also explains why everyone is so bad with like New Year's resolutions, because that's that internal, you know, deadline or goal, and then nobody's holding you to it typically.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_05: It's no wonder no one ever hits those very often.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um, one thing you mentioned, MJ, uh, about awareness and kind of habits.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_05: I think patterns evolve too, and like notice them.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I think often that the physical, like taking care of yourself physically, exercising is a big one.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that's probably I I don't want to say it's number one because it varies for people, but I think it's it's definitely one of the top ones because you get a lot of work.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_05: What's the first thing to go?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_05: Exercise.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_05: And I know so many times Kent and I have talked about before, it's like Kent used to do tons of bike rides.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I know you were doing those 5Ks for a while, Kent.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_05: And like I play basketball or I do some boxing and those kind of things, um, you know, to get outside to do something different.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_05: And you kind of mentioned it, but like what have you seen in that area specifically, MJ, like the role of exercise, the the physical aspect of it with you know, burnout.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's funny because I what I hear a lot is I don't have time.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have time, I don't have time.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, you have the time.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're choosing to use that time on XYZ.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I saw you on Facebook today scrolling for 45 minutes, you had 45 minutes to sit there with your cell phone and scroll.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you have the time, you just used it to do that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So helping people realize where their unproductive time may be and where they can.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, listen, you still want to scroll Facebook?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Go find a treadmill, stick your phone up on the treadmill and walk on the treadmill, and you can scroll Facebook for 45 minutes, but now you're walking.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Slow walk.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Do, you know, work something's it for me.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I sit, I'm on a bouncy ball right now.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: I sit on a ball.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I notice that when I'm getting antsy or when I've been sitting too long, my body just automatically starts, and I'm like, I gotta get up.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: So then I get up and I go for a walk, or I get up and I move.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so working pieces in and showing people how to um it's something I used to do when the kids were really little and I was, you know, taking care of the house and they were teeny tiny and I couldn't get like a full workout in.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so I would do like, you know, squats or lunges when I was putting stuff away, or you know, when I was standing there cooking dinner, I was like bending down, touching my toes, standing up, and you know, so working in some creative ways to move, I think is important.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: And pointing out to people that when they say, I don't have time, that is such remove it, remove it, remove it from your from your speaking, don't use it.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, the atomic habits, absolutely.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like there are certain things that we put out there in the world, these these little things that we say.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's different for each person, um, but we put these things out there already.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we're preemptively already setting ourselves up for the reasons why we can't do or why we can't change or why we can't achieve.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have to realize what things you're saying, you know, what your what is your mental mindset around these things.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Things around those blocks and then shift it.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: Show yourself how easy it is to work that in.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Take five minutes less on Facebook scrolling and stand up and do some jumping jacks.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be okay.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, just little, little things.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you do find too, like there's a lot, there's a whole brain-gut connection you hear people talking about all the time, different things that we eat, different things that we're putting into our bodies.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: You'll notice it when you drink a certain drink versus something else.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'll go and grab a coffee in the morning.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it makes me feel energized, but I'll crash.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: If I juice a fresh orange and I suck that down, I get the same amount of energy, but my brain feels better.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so it's it's really different.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: You have to start to realize the small things that you're doing in life that we all have done.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, I'm not judging anybody, I'm not saying this is bad, don't do that.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, why not try something else?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Why not try something that might change things and see how that feels, right?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like how you're feeling if you shift this.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because for me, sitting on a bouncy ball feels great.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: It reminds me to move.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: If my husband had to do this on the days that he works from home, he would absolutely be so cranky because it's just not his jam.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, not his thing, doesn't want to do it, it's not gonna work for him.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to really pay attention to the things that you're doing, both that make you feel good and the things that you're doing that don't.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: The words that you're saying that make things more productive and help you kind of get a healthier mindset around things and the things that you're saying that set you up for negative, like I don't have time.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: You have the time, you can create the time, we can fix the time.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, those are like little humps that I think you have to pull in as well.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it's it takes work.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes it does take working with somebody, even if it's just your best friend kind of talking you through these things and asking those questions so that you have to address the hard questions that make you feel uncomfortable to answer.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because none of us really want to hear, yes, you do have time, stop saying that.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I don't.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: I've got three kids, I'm homeschooling, I'm running two businesses.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have time.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, you really do have time.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Let me show you where I can find it for you.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, nobody wants to hear that.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, but those are the things I think sometimes are necessary to hear in order to avoid burnout situations, in order to avoid stress that we that I don't want to say we always create for ourselves, but long-term ineffectual habits create those things.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have to know what those are and you have to shift them.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_05: Are you thinking too that the part of it is processing it out loud versus keeping it in your head, especially if you're an overthinker, because that wheel just keeps on spinning, right?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: Overthinking is the worst thing ever.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I proudly wear my overthinking hat.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like a badge of honor.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like I should get a t-shirt.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a happy overthinker.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's it's so, so, so negative.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: It really is because I can work myself up from wow, I really love talking to people about burnout.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: I really love helping them, you know, and empowering them towards their personal significance and finding clarity in their lives.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I can go from that and be like, you're a complete moron.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you trying to talk to people?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: I can take myself from 10 to 2 in about 30 minutes.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm crying and I'm like, I don't know.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is so I mean, I can totally do it to myself.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need any help from anybody else to do that to myself.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: But when I sit and I spew it out, a lot of times I'm like, oh, I just heard that.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: I just said that I I kind of heard that out loud.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really sorry.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: I made you sit through this.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_05: It sounds like you're catching those lies too, right?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_05: When you say it out loud, you're like, I know better than that.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_05: That's not true.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_05: That's not even this true.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_08: I absolutely love the analogy that someone uh shared with me, and it I forgot his source for it, but he said that um we find ourselves signing contracts.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_08: Um, you know, you think about the mental thinking.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_08: So here's an example on the long distance through hike.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_08: I would tell people and I would tell myself, you're not a good late-in-the-day hiker.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_08: I would try to wrap things up by five and be done.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_08: But there were several, anyway, because I prefer, I prefer morning, I prefer getting a lot done and then being done.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_08: But in fact, there were numerous situations that developed late in the game where I hiked very well late into the night.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_08: And I thought to myself, Perry, you have signed a contract, just like this friend was telling me, that I am not a good late-in-the-day hike.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_08: Well, you prefer that, but that's not so let go of that lie, as Jim described it, or you know, don't sign that contract.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_08: I'm sorry.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so true.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we it's almost like we have these these identities that we develop for ourselves, like I'm not a morning person, or I'm not a um, I'm not a this or I'm not a that.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is that we have just decided that we're not gonna be those things.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: It really doesn't have anything to do with something that is that is just part of us that is a set thing because we can change that if we want to.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_06: Have you guys read Personality Isn't Permanent by Dr.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_06: Benjamin Hardy?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, I haven't read that one.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_06: It's an awesome book, and that's the premise that we believe, you know, we bought into this fixed mindset that we've been taught that personality is static, and it's really not.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_06: It's all choices that we make and we can change those.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_06: So I love that book.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: What are some takeaways from this?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we can talk a lot about burnout, the causes, problems with it, uh, the results of it.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: But what is something that that you would like to change or something that you would like to consider adjusting in your lifestyle, your routine, habits, something that can make a tangible difference in your life, in your writing, based on what we've talked about today.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna make everybody answer.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're on Zoom.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can't make anybody do anything on Zoom.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: But should you choose to offer something, uh, feel free to.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_06: So I would like to find a way to um while constraining my hours, so working within a set number of hours, be able to be more effective and earn more money in that time.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_06: So I know I found my balance, I know what works best for my body, my system, all that.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_06: And if I look at the numbers, I'm like, okay, something's gotta shift.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_06: I don't want to go back to working all the hours that I used to.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great one.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_04: I really like the um the concept of of saying it out loud instead of keeping it in your head.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um along with that, um, what contract am I signing idea?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um combining those and identifying the lies that I believe in that keep me, you know, in pace.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_07: I think I gotta work on when I when I start getting into the writing groove and people interrupt me, I get real cranky.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_07: So I I I think I need to somehow balance that.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_07: I don't like to get interrupted.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_07: So um and I can that can be a you know, sometimes be a problem.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_07: People are interrupting you and need need help or something, and you get you just you get, you know, like, don't bother me right now.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_07: I'm doing some.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_07: So that that can be, you know, you gotta kind of you gotta find a good balance there.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_08: I'll piggyback off of that and say, um the goal is to communicate my needs in a constructive way.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_08: Um for you know, the phrase from scripture that talks about speak the truth in love.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_08: And uh and I need to be honest, uh, you know, and uh because I'm one of those obligers, I'm one of those people pleasers, and that's what's man, you know, my whole life got me in big trouble just trying to keep everybody happy and then find yourself completely.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_08: Anyway, so communicate your needs honestly.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll throw one out there and I appreciate everybody's suggestions here.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one thing that I need to work on is getting better sleep.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to stay up too late at night.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um if if schedule was not a constraint, I would probably stay up to two or three every day and get up at 10.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's just I just I'm a I'm just a late night person.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of how I'm just wired.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been that way.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't really work well, especially the older that I get, the worse that that actually gets.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I need to do a better job of that and probably staying off screens like an hour before I go to sleep, also.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: I just love to read and some sometimes get sucked into those stupid YouTube videos.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: Have you read Sleep Smarter by Sean?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I read some of it, yeah.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: I need to put it into practice more.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody else?
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Any final thoughts before we wrap up?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: This has been a very chill group today.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's it's raining here in St.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Louis, so it's kind of like a it's a rainy, riety, rider-ly sort of day.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a deal.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: So MJ, this has been phenomenal.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is has been really, really good.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you guys so much.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was so much fun chatting with you all about it.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's kind of hard because burnout, it does look different for everyone, and there's so many pieces to address in order to avoid or or be aware of it.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: But um, thank you all for going through with some of them with me and having the chit chat.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let's before I end this call, can you give us um not to put you on the spot, but I guess I kind of am.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, give us a little preview, if you can, of what are some things that you're developing around this so we know to be on the lookout for it and we can help support you.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I do have a devotional for women that's going to be coming out.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's in we're in final edits now.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: So um hopefully coming out soon.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that'll be all centered around kind of just empowering um significance through faith.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm using that as part of, you know, some of the pieces of what I bring awareness to when I when I start my coaching and my uh group community that I'm gonna be starting around that.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that will all be on the burned out business mom webpage.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm also starting a podcast around that as well that we'll be launching soon.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: So all of those pieces will come together.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna try to, you know, address things not just for moms, but I am the burned out business mom and I would like to help bring tips and awareness to other people to help them not be the burned out business mom.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: So are men allowed to listen to it?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, are the podcast police gonna come and arrest me if if I listen to a podcast for women?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think you know, I paid them off, so you should be okay.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's good.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do it covertly.
• 55:13
  unknown: Right.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'll get a I'd get a different phone.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been a blast.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, appreciate you taking time to lead us through this.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this has been so helpful.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I encourage everybody to put this into practice.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the things that some of you have shared, like we actually need to do these things.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: So feel free to to you know what?
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm gonna ask this in the group in the next couple days, and feel free to hold me accountable as well for the sleep thing.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: So awesome.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I appreciate everybody.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: This has been great, and um, hope you have a good rest of the afternoon and good rest of the week.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: You guys too.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you all so much.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: See y'all.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, MJ.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my goodness, this was an absolutely amazing conversation that really encouraged and inspired me.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned some things about myself that I hadn't even thought about.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she's talking about the signs of burnouts and things you can do to get support and why you need to protect your time, even though I'm a person who has a full-time business writing, and you would think that maybe I would have more of these things figured out in my life.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: So this was something that really personally benefited me.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful for MJ's compassion, wisdom, and empathy, but I'm also grateful for the practical tips that she shared in this episode.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if I had to pick one takeaway, it would simply be to do something and to take action to deal with your burnout if you're going through this.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just sit on your computer all day.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just sit around feeling sorry for yourself.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do something.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Call up a friend, take a walk, read a book, drink more water, get more sleep, do whatever it is that that would be helpful for you to do to move out of a place of feeling burned out or struggling or depressed and moving toward a more healthy self.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, since we are in this mental health series, I also want to encourage you if you're really, really struggling, call a professional.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Get in touch with a doctor, a counselor, or a therapist.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I'm not a counselor and I don't play one on TV, but I have benefited from counseling personally in my life, and I've, of course, counseled other people in different situations, not professionally, but just uh talking to people and trying to help them.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that sometimes you do need the help of a professional in your life.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no shame in that.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: The important thing is to do something and to take action if you're feeling burned out, stressed out, depressed, or discouraged.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope this episode has not been a downer, you know, because we think of these things as kind of a downer situation, but it's really not because we want to move out of a place in our lives where these things are holding us back and into a place of energy and joy and peace and productivity.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful that MJ has joined us here on this episode to talk about these things and to give us some practical pathways forward.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to encourage you to check out her website, which is the burned outbusinessmom.com, as well as the Burned Out Business Mom podcast, and her social media links.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: All those links will be in the show notes, and I really encourage you to check those out.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank MJ for taking the time out to be a guest in this episode.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: Really appreciate your friendship and all the ways that you contribute in amazing ways to the Daily Writer community.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to take a moment to let you know about our Daily Writer membership community.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're tired of feeling isolated and chasing success on your own, then I know you're gonna love the Daily Writer community.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: For years, I searched for the kind of writing community that I would want to join.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I can never find what I wanted, so I created my own.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the features include weekly writing sprints, monthly community calls, book discussions, calls with guest experts, and much more.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.