Latest / Normally / Normally Podcast: Teachers Unions Under Fire, Homeschooling Debate & The Crisis in American Education

Transcript

Normally Podcast: Teachers Unions Under Fire, Homeschooling Debate & The Crisis in American Education · Normally

0:07
Speaker 1: Hey guys, we are back on normally the show with
0:09
Speaker 1: normalist takes for when the news gets weird. I am
0:11
Speaker 1: Mary Catherine Hammond. Carol is out, but we are happy,
0:14
Speaker 1: so happy and lucky to be joined today by the
0:17
Speaker 1: president and founder of Defending Education in one of my
0:20
Speaker 1: longtime buddies, NICKI Neely. How's it going, Nikki?
0:22
Speaker 2: Everything is great. Thanks for having me, very very good.
0:26
Speaker 2: You know, you and I both I'm on the road,
0:28
Speaker 2: you're at home. We're both summering it up here while
0:31
Speaker 2: Carol's on vacation, and as you were while we were prepping,
0:36
Speaker 2: prepping your kids lunch and getting everything in order. It
0:41
Speaker 2: made me think of There was a brief controversy yesterday
0:44
Speaker 2: online on x when someone flagged that a New York
0:48
Speaker 2: Times writer who was profiling Emma Waters was very confused
0:54
Speaker 2: about how Emma Waters, who is like a you know,
0:57
Speaker 2: pro family, pro kids, you know, pronatal person and policy person,
1:03
Speaker 2: was just constantly on the go and parenting her children
1:07
Speaker 2: when this person was trying to fact check her, and
1:10
Speaker 2: she thought that that was confusing and maybe hypocritical given
1:14
Speaker 2: that she pushes for more children than children here.
1:21
Speaker 3: I have the audacity of trying to maintain a work
1:23
Speaker 3: life balance and still parent.
1:25
Speaker 1: No, it was wild. I was like, have you ever
1:27
Speaker 1: met one of us before? Yes, this is what we do.
1:32
Speaker 3: No, this is like I have had friends who have
1:33
Speaker 3: tried to talk me to having like an executive assistant,
1:36
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I don't think you understand the amount
1:38
Speaker 3: of things I'm juggling, Like I don't want anybody to
1:39
Speaker 3: get into the amount of time it's going to take
1:41
Speaker 3: to get from the ortho to school to lunch.
1:44
Speaker 4: That like, this is a me problem.
1:46
Speaker 1: I'm just doing it. Call me on my cell phone.
1:48
Speaker 1: I'm going to be dropping my kid at the next
1:50
Speaker 1: appointment or and or camp and then we'll, uh, we'll
1:54
Speaker 1: discuss anyway. I just thought that was funny as we
1:56
Speaker 1: were gathering our stuff and our brains to get ready
1:59
Speaker 1: for this. All right, so I do want to talk
2:02
Speaker 1: about There is another gathering going on. The American Federation
2:07
Speaker 1: of Teachers, which I just read has re elected none
2:10
Speaker 1: other than Randy Weiningarden for another two years as head
2:14
Speaker 1: of that organization. Because nothing succeeds like success, Nikki, and
2:18
Speaker 1: I guess she has succeeded at some things, mainly making
2:22
Speaker 1: money for herself. What do we think of this vision
2:26
Speaker 1: for the future from the American Federation of Teachers.
2:29
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Randy is the gift that keeps giving, right, Like,
2:32
Speaker 3: anytime you put a microphone in front of that woman's
2:34
Speaker 3: face she says something crazy, it's a whole news cycle.
2:37
Speaker 4: It's pretty fun. I mean, I love that they have.
2:39
Speaker 3: Also, I think it's worth noting that the AFT does
2:41
Speaker 3: not have term limits, whereas the National Education Association actually does,
2:45
Speaker 3: and they just selected their own new president. And so
2:48
Speaker 3: you know, as much as we talk about protecting democracy,
2:50
Speaker 3: YadA YadA, which is frankly one of the things that
2:52
Speaker 3: they voted about, actually both unions voted about at their
2:54
Speaker 3: summer conference, is like, are we living those principles?
2:58
Speaker 4: Are we living our truth right now? Randy feels like
3:00
Speaker 4: maybe not.
3:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean maybe fighting fascism requires keeping Randy in
3:05
Speaker 1: power forever and ever. Amen, that's actually the philosophy behind it.
3:10
Speaker 1: I think speaking of her saying crazy things, I think
3:12
Speaker 1: we have several clips from this gathering. Can we try
3:15
Speaker 1: to play Randy at the American Federation of Teachers gathering
3:18
Speaker 1: just to give you a sense of just what a
3:21
Speaker 1: great orator she is.
3:23
Speaker 5: A broad US together to vote together, to act together.
3:26
Speaker 6: To bring about change.
3:29
Speaker 1: Real lasting, life improving change.
3:32
Speaker 5: That is the power and potential of our movement and
3:37
Speaker 5: all the.
3:38
Speaker 3: A f day Wow, wow, time to switch to decaff.
3:45
Speaker 1: Yeah she is. Look, she has been effective for the
3:49
Speaker 1: union and for herself. Right, She during the pandemic found
3:52
Speaker 1: many ways to get them paid extra money for not working.
3:55
Speaker 6: Right.
3:56
Speaker 1: There's things that she does that are effective. Public speaking
3:59
Speaker 1: is not one of them. I am sometimes amazed that
4:02
Speaker 1: someone who has been in the public eye for as
4:04
Speaker 1: long as she has could be that bad at a mic.
4:07
Speaker 1: It's very bad.
4:09
Speaker 3: Yes, I love that this meeting also took place at
4:12
Speaker 3: the same time that she is under congressional investigation for
4:14
Speaker 3: using union resources to write and promote her own book
4:18
Speaker 3: and get it onto like the bestseller list, like you know.
4:21
Speaker 3: This is I think a perfect time for her to
4:22
Speaker 3: be the center retention because she is, you know, in
4:25
Speaker 3: the holes of government as well as on stage.
4:27
Speaker 1: We love that. And by the way, that book, that
4:29
Speaker 1: book always cracked me up because the premise was that
4:32
Speaker 1: public education is the lynchpin for preventing fascism, Like if
4:38
Speaker 1: you don't have children in her teacher's schools and in
4:41
Speaker 1: their hands, then fascism will rain. And I thought, maybe
4:46
Speaker 1: you guys shouldn't have taken a break for a year
4:48
Speaker 1: and a half during twenty twenty and twenty twenty one,
4:51
Speaker 1: because it seems like a mistake given your philosophy.
4:54
Speaker 3: Well, and let's remember the Chicago Teachers Union actually said
4:57
Speaker 3: the push to reopen schools was rooted in racism, sexism,
5:00
Speaker 3: and misogyny. And so it's really there's a lot of
5:03
Speaker 3: cross currents right now.
5:04
Speaker 1: And on this show, we never stopped talking about who
5:09
Speaker 1: should be held as possible for those things that happened,
5:12
Speaker 1: because we will be paying for it for so long
5:14
Speaker 1: as you know, as somebody who covers education. And I'm
5:16
Speaker 1: glad you mentioned the Chicago Teachers Union because I have
5:19
Speaker 1: the head of the Chicago teachers, Chicago Teacher Union speaking
5:23
Speaker 1: at the American Federation of Teachers, and let's just hear
5:27
Speaker 1: what enlightening and inspiring things she has to say.
5:30
Speaker 5: So figure out that racism is a solidarity killer, figure
5:35
Speaker 5: out that in fighting is a solidarity killer. Figure out
5:41
Speaker 5: how we feel capacity to send that man's ass back
5:45
Speaker 5: somewhere out.
5:48
Speaker 1: I presume the man's ass is Trump's ass. So she
5:54
Speaker 1: she has overseen a multitude of failures for students parents
6:01
Speaker 1: in Chicago. It is arguably the worst school district, in
6:04
Speaker 1: the worst leadership in the country. Although the competition is
6:08
Speaker 1: very tough out there.
6:10
Speaker 3: Yeah they're broke. Yeah, kids' families have been fleeing the
6:14
Speaker 3: system for forever. I think probably the greatest thing that
6:18
Speaker 3: Chicago Teachers Union has done over the past decade is
6:20
Speaker 3: send Brandon Johnson to the Mayor's office in Chicago, who
6:23
Speaker 3: is continuing to write checks that neither the city, nor
6:26
Speaker 3: the union, nor the school system, nor the state frankly
6:28
Speaker 3: for that matter, can cash. And so it's really as
6:31
Speaker 3: a former Chicago and it's a source of great, great
6:35
Speaker 3: pride for all of us.
6:35
Speaker 1: You're welcome well, And she's one of the in the
6:38
Speaker 1: Chicago Teachers' Union in this whole racket, Frankly, is one
6:43
Speaker 1: of the ones I frequently refer to because the amount
6:46
Speaker 1: of money being spent is so obviously not getting you
6:50
Speaker 1: any results, right, and yet the answer always from the
6:54
Speaker 1: leaders of the Chicago Teacher Union is that we just
6:57
Speaker 1: have to have more money. That is, that's absolutely the
7:00
Speaker 1: answer to this problem. But it's never actually been the
7:04
Speaker 1: answer anywhere that I've seen money thrown at a district, right.
7:09
Speaker 3: I mean you look at places like New York City, Chicago, LA,
7:11
Speaker 3: which are all spending well north of thirty thousand dollars
7:14
Speaker 3: a student a year for absolutely abysmal results. I mean, like,
7:17
Speaker 3: you know, ten percent of kids reading, if that you know,
7:20
Speaker 3: five percent of kids doing proficiency and math. I mean,
7:22
Speaker 3: really like statistics that are so low it would be
7:25
Speaker 3: laughable if these weren't children's lives at stake. I mean,
7:28
Speaker 3: these kids who are being socially promoted. Who you know,
7:31
Speaker 3: if you can't read by third grade, you're basically never
7:33
Speaker 3: going to master that skill set. And then to send
7:36
Speaker 3: them out into the world in the economy and be like,
7:38
Speaker 3: all right, good luck. I mean, it's sick and it's twisted,
7:41
Speaker 3: and it sets these children up for a lifetime of failure,
7:43
Speaker 3: a lifetime of dependency, and I think it is fair.
7:47
Speaker 3: You know, some people question whether maybe that is the
7:49
Speaker 3: goal at the end, where people who can't you know,
7:51
Speaker 3: you have people who have never been able to think
7:52
Speaker 3: for themselves, can't read the news for themselves, and just
7:55
Speaker 3: have to take everything as it is it delivered to them.
7:57
Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting because you see this sort of
8:00
Speaker 1: science of reading revolution happening in Mississippi and Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee.
8:05
Speaker 1: And you see the students that someone like Randy wide
8:09
Speaker 1: Garden or the head of the Chicago Teachers Union would
8:11
Speaker 1: talk about passionately wanting it to be their mission to help. Right,
8:16
Speaker 1: That's why we need more money. We need to help
8:18
Speaker 1: low income students. We need to help students who are struggling.
8:21
Speaker 1: We need to help black students, right, students of color, right,
8:25
Speaker 1: we need to That's who we need to reach with
8:28
Speaker 1: all this extra money we're going to take from you.
8:30
Speaker 1: But the places that are doing that are Mississippi, are Alabama,
8:34
Speaker 1: or Louisiana or Tennessee. With as you noted, accountability, we're
8:39
Speaker 1: going to stop social promotion. We're going to make sure
8:42
Speaker 1: that kids learn by third grade how to learn how
8:44
Speaker 1: to read so that they can read to learn after that.
8:47
Speaker 1: And what you get often from teachers unions is real
8:50
Speaker 1: tribal pushback against the idea that they should be doing
8:54
Speaker 1: any of that anywhere other than these ichy ruby red states.
8:58
Speaker 3: Right, you know, And it's funny that you know, think
9:00
Speaker 3: abu Chicago, thinking about Los Angeles. We actually have open
9:02
Speaker 3: civil rights complaints that the Department of Education is investigating
9:06
Speaker 3: into both districts because both districts, as you to your
9:09
Speaker 3: point about more money, have set aside hundreds of millions
9:12
Speaker 3: of dollars annually for black student success programs, ignoring the
9:17
Speaker 3: fact that there are Hispanic students who need help, White students,
9:20
Speaker 3: Asian students, everybody else. But it's just the cheery picking
9:23
Speaker 3: who gets the extra assistance, money, time benefit.
9:27
Speaker 4: So this is not about helping all children.
9:28
Speaker 3: It is about helping frankly, a set of constituents that
9:31
Speaker 3: they expect to be in their pocket for forever.
9:34
Speaker 4: But it is not about helping everyone. And I think
9:35
Speaker 4: that's really twisted.
9:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of Nikki's great skills we should note is
9:40
Speaker 1: foya ing and going after people in court so they
9:42
Speaker 1: have to answer questions.
9:43
Speaker 4: Like this, Yeah, it's fun.
9:46
Speaker 1: It's your pastime, it's your passion. They have their passions,
9:50
Speaker 1: you have yours. Can we play? There's one more guy,
9:55
Speaker 1: the president at the California Teachers Union has a little
9:59
Speaker 1: something to say as well, and I'm really fired up
10:02
Speaker 1: about it.
10:02
Speaker 6: Here.
10:03
Speaker 7: He is to fight back against this fascist regime. We
10:07
Speaker 7: need to be in the streets wisely using our wallets,
10:11
Speaker 7: battling in the courts and winning at the ballot box.
10:14
Speaker 7: The center of our democracy.
10:17
Speaker 1: You interact with parents who are having challenges with school
10:20
Speaker 1: districts and having challenges getting their kids the help that
10:23
Speaker 1: they need. What do they how much are they tuned
10:26
Speaker 1: in to unions and what unions are up to? And
10:31
Speaker 1: I felt that during twenty twenty a lot of parents
10:32
Speaker 1: got a lot of exposure to that they wouldn't have
10:34
Speaker 1: otherwise had. And I just can imagine as many in
10:39
Speaker 1: Northern Virginia are in our districts just going could could
10:43
Speaker 1: you police just teach them to read and do mass
10:45
Speaker 1: like that's I'm begging you.
10:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think it was. COVID was a real
10:51
Speaker 3: wake up call for a lot of families. And I
10:53
Speaker 3: think the fact that all right, people sort of we
10:55
Speaker 3: gave the schools a couple of years to kind of
10:57
Speaker 3: get things back on track, maybe all that, you know,
10:59
Speaker 3: billan of Esser money was going.
11:01
Speaker 1: To fix things.
11:02
Speaker 4: Spoiler it didn't. But things are really not back on track.
11:05
Speaker 3: And I think that's why we've seen an exodus from
11:07
Speaker 3: public schools in general, which is something right now amid
11:10
Speaker 3: the sort of the federal school choice tax credit debate
11:13
Speaker 3: that a lot of union activists Blue States are freaking
11:16
Speaker 3: out over because schools get money on a per pupil basis.
11:19
Speaker 3: If there is not a butt in a seat, then
11:21
Speaker 3: money is not flowing to that district. But I think
11:23
Speaker 3: it's so funny that they're talking about, you know, getting
11:26
Speaker 3: everybody out to go be active. One of the things
11:28
Speaker 3: they're doing in schools, in public schools is using our
11:31
Speaker 3: children as little child soldiers to go out and march
11:33
Speaker 3: on these issues, be it ice, be it about LGBT issues,
11:37
Speaker 3: and so it is just reiterating that lesson that we
11:40
Speaker 3: saw from schools during COVID of that it doesn't matter
11:43
Speaker 3: if you're in school, it's more important if you're outdoing things.
11:47
Speaker 3: And so that's why, you know, we also have truancy
11:49
Speaker 3: rates that are through the roof, and I don't think
11:51
Speaker 3: they're coming back to earth anytime soon. And so when
11:54
Speaker 3: you have schools, when you have officials, when you have
11:56
Speaker 3: union members say it's more important for you to get
11:58
Speaker 3: out and protest against ice or something else, then kids
12:01
Speaker 3: and parents really are starting to internalize that message and think,
12:04
Speaker 3: you know what, maybe school doesn't matter that much.
12:06
Speaker 4: So we're in we're in real trouble.
12:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, as Carol, my co host, says, if you tell
12:11
Speaker 1: if you tell them that school is not essential for
12:13
Speaker 1: two years, they'll believe you, right like some people will
12:16
Speaker 1: just believe you. I believe that the AFT also voted
12:20
Speaker 1: to make May first their official like protest and solidarity day,
12:25
Speaker 1: So that's another thing that's on their plate.
12:27
Speaker 4: Thanks Communist Christmas. I love it fun times.
12:30
Speaker 1: Okay, we will be back on normally with more on
12:32
Speaker 1: education because we're doing a little special today with nick
12:34
Speaker 1: e Meely. All right, we are back on normally with
12:41
Speaker 1: my co host today, Nicky Neely, of defending education. More
12:46
Speaker 1: on education. I want to play a clip from these
12:49
Speaker 1: crazy lefty podcasters that come across everybody's right oar these days.
12:53
Speaker 1: Jennifer while to a former Bravo star. She started out
12:56
Speaker 1: as a reality television star and then she has become
12:59
Speaker 1: a resistant podcaster and some people think that she's their
13:02
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. I would always, you know, point out that
13:05
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan was a lefty and he's your Joe Rogan,
13:08
Speaker 1: but anyway, he's Bernie bro guys. But Jennifer Welch and
13:12
Speaker 1: her co host whose name No. One knows because she's
13:16
Speaker 1: never allowed to speak. But the co host finally got
13:19
Speaker 1: a word in edgewise this week, and it was about homeschooling,
13:23
Speaker 1: So let's hear from her what she thinks about it.
13:26
Speaker 6: You would not believe how many people in Bible study
13:28
Speaker 6: homeschool they're kids.
13:29
Speaker 4: And you just think, uh, I worry about that, And
13:34
Speaker 4: then you.
13:34
Speaker 6: See those witness booklets or whatever they're called that the
13:37
Speaker 6: duggers use, and they're like top.
13:39
Speaker 4: Out at eighth grade.
13:40
Speaker 6: I mean, I just think homeschooling is a bad idea
13:43
Speaker 6: from suit to night. I don't care if you're nuclear physicist.
13:48
Speaker 3: I think it's just fucking.
13:49
Speaker 6: Weirdest fact that you want your kids around you all day,
13:53
Speaker 6: every day and all night, and just the socialization.
13:57
Speaker 4: For me personally, it was that I would have.
13:59
Speaker 6: Gotten up on my hands and knees and strapped them
14:01
Speaker 6: to my back and crawled to get them to school
14:04
Speaker 6: every day just to get them where I wasn't. So
14:07
Speaker 6: I don't trust somebody that wants to be with their
14:09
Speaker 6: kids twenty four to seven. I think a lot of
14:11
Speaker 6: dumb people do it because it's just easier. And that's
14:15
Speaker 6: a concern and I've had I've had divorce cases that
14:19
Speaker 6: like moms die mad at dad, they're fighting over whose
14:22
Speaker 6: school district, kids getting used to their address. They put
14:25
Speaker 6: them on homeschool. It's like two or three hours a
14:27
Speaker 6: day at the computer and then kids are going just
14:29
Speaker 6: off to the races. So I just can't think of
14:32
Speaker 6: very many good things about homeschool.
14:34
Speaker 1: So that's Angie Sullivan, and her co host Jennifer Welch
14:38
Speaker 1: added on to that conversation that she thinks it's trickled
14:40
Speaker 1: down stupidity that it is. It's just a maga program
14:44
Speaker 1: to indoctrinate all these children. You and I have both
14:47
Speaker 1: homeschooled for periods of time. Was it is easier the
14:52
Speaker 1: word we would use for.
14:53
Speaker 3: That, that was yeah, that was the real That was
14:56
Speaker 3: the sentence that stood out to me. It was not easier,
15:00
Speaker 3: and we were like, admittedly, like we were not great
15:02
Speaker 3: at it, Like my kids have a huge amount of
15:06
Speaker 3: knowledge about constitutional law and like not as much about science.
15:09
Speaker 4: For a period of time. But it was not easy.
15:12
Speaker 3: But I also at the same time it did feel
15:15
Speaker 3: like a gift to be able to spend time with
15:17
Speaker 3: my children as they were developing into adults. And the
15:20
Speaker 3: fact that this woman does not want to be around
15:22
Speaker 3: her kids that like she would basically crawl over broken
15:25
Speaker 3: glass to get rid of them.
15:26
Speaker 4: I mean, what is that, Like, it's like so appalling
15:30
Speaker 4: to me.
15:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we've all had our bad parenting days, but
15:33
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a day that my children will
15:35
Speaker 1: hear me on a national podcast saying I wanted to
15:38
Speaker 1: get away from them so badly that I consider it
15:41
Speaker 1: I would, I would crawl over broken glass to get
15:43
Speaker 1: them where I'm not, And I considered it a red
15:46
Speaker 1: flag that anyone else would want to hang out with
15:49
Speaker 1: their children.
15:51
Speaker 3: Oh and like, guess what it was the teachers unions
15:53
Speaker 3: that kept schools closed unnecessarily long, forcing her through this
15:57
Speaker 3: torture of being in the same building as hers for
16:00
Speaker 3: like a year and a half or two years, Like what,
16:03
Speaker 3: like make it make sense?
16:04
Speaker 6: I know?
16:04
Speaker 1: I think this is a classic sort of lefty move,
16:07
Speaker 1: which is the government funded nonsense that they want you
16:12
Speaker 1: to give unlimited funds to at all times is what
16:15
Speaker 1: failed you, which is why you ended up homeschooling. But
16:20
Speaker 1: now they're going to crap on you for solving the
16:22
Speaker 1: problem that their preferred entity put in your lap and
16:26
Speaker 1: charge you all this money for it's like people are
16:29
Speaker 1: just looking for an escape patch.
16:31
Speaker 3: No, And it reminds me a lot of during lockdown.
16:34
Speaker 3: The Michigan Democratic Party actually had a Facebook post that
16:36
Speaker 3: they got so roundly dragged for they actually had to
16:39
Speaker 3: take it down in shame. But it said the purpose
16:41
Speaker 3: of public school is to teach children what society needs
16:44
Speaker 3: them to know. And I was like, oh, that's like
16:46
Speaker 3: a very loaded statement, right, Like that is implying that
16:49
Speaker 3: you and I don't know what society needs them to know.
16:51
Speaker 3: Like us with our guns and our gods and life
16:53
Speaker 3: right like all that like icky stuff. But our children
16:56
Speaker 3: should know that there are like ninety two genders and
16:59
Speaker 3: that it is wrong to be born like to a
17:01
Speaker 3: white family or like any of these things, like any
17:03
Speaker 3: one of the number of questionable things.
17:05
Speaker 4: Like that's fully what society needs them to know.
17:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's obviously an agenda. It infects even
17:11
Speaker 1: you know, schools in the reddest of areas are full
17:15
Speaker 1: of people who are happy to do that kind of
17:17
Speaker 1: work and not the more basic kind of work, which
17:19
Speaker 1: is what I was engaged in when I was homeschooling
17:21
Speaker 1: my kids. And I will I do have to pat
17:24
Speaker 1: myself on the back, I think comm law, by the way,
17:26
Speaker 1: is a very good part of what society needs them
17:29
Speaker 1: to know. My kids are just readers. That's what they
17:32
Speaker 1: became while we were homeschooling. And yes, did I probably
17:37
Speaker 1: not give the most effective pedagogy on math or science.
17:41
Speaker 1: Maybe so, But those two that I homeschooled are going
17:45
Speaker 1: to be reading forever and ever. If I read as
17:48
Speaker 1: much as they did, I would be a much better person.
17:50
Speaker 1: So I do love that about our experience. And I
17:53
Speaker 1: have to say for those who a lot of people
17:55
Speaker 1: do think, oh my gosh, I could never and I
17:57
Speaker 1: don't think that's true for many parents, because many many
18:00
Speaker 1: smart parents tell me that, and I'm like, it's actually
18:03
Speaker 1: you could. You're a smart person. You could figure it
18:05
Speaker 1: out and you'd enjoy it. Teaching my children to read
18:10
Speaker 1: was one of the most magical things that has ever
18:12
Speaker 1: happened to me.
18:13
Speaker 4: It was the light go on ye to watch their lives.
18:16
Speaker 1: Change and they go, oh my gosh, this whole world
18:19
Speaker 1: has opened up to me. And I could watch it
18:21
Speaker 1: happen just over and when it clicks, it really happens quickly,
18:25
Speaker 1: and they pick it up very quickly. And so to
18:28
Speaker 1: be able to do that with them was just amazing.
18:30
Speaker 1: I'm trying to try it with the second two as well.
18:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know the idea that how dear a
18:35
Speaker 3: family might want to have insight or oversight or any
18:38
Speaker 3: kind of input into what a child is learning or
18:41
Speaker 3: how they learned it.
18:42
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, you have a number of children.
18:44
Speaker 4: I only have two.
18:45
Speaker 3: I'm an underp receiever, right but that you know, we
18:47
Speaker 3: know that our children have different learning styles, have different interests,
18:51
Speaker 3: right Like, what will spark a kid, you know, is
18:53
Speaker 3: very different than what it might spark in their sibling.
18:56
Speaker 3: And to be able to be that hands on and
18:58
Speaker 3: to customize it, I think is kind of the dream
19:00
Speaker 3: for most parents.
19:01
Speaker 4: Like that's when we send our kids to school.
19:03
Speaker 3: You hope that the teacher can sort of give your
19:05
Speaker 3: child that level of personalization in a classroom of twenty.
19:08
Speaker 4: Six kids, that's very difficult.
19:10
Speaker 3: And to be able to do it with a smaller group,
19:12
Speaker 3: I mean it makes me think of Victoria and England
19:14
Speaker 3: when everybody had governesses, right Like, it's kind of that,
19:17
Speaker 3: except you get to be the person who is opening
19:19
Speaker 3: those doors for your child.
19:20
Speaker 1: Right well, and then I know so many of the
19:22
Speaker 1: moms I know whose kids are in public school, and
19:24
Speaker 1: they're advocating for them constantly. What they're doing is trying
19:28
Speaker 1: their best to tailor a situation where their kid's interest
19:32
Speaker 1: is sparked, where their strengths are spoken to, where their
19:35
Speaker 1: weaknesses are addressed, which is just what you do every
19:38
Speaker 1: day if you're homeschooling in your home, and you happen
19:40
Speaker 1: to as I do, like your children. So I want
19:45
Speaker 1: to segue from this to I. Actually there's one more
19:48
Speaker 1: clip from Wesmore, Governor of Maryland, speaking at the American
19:51
Speaker 1: Federation of Teachers, and he has this to say, and.
19:54
Speaker 7: Barrett, inside that bill is a tax scheme that makes
19:57
Speaker 7: public funding and takes public funding and steers it towards
20:01
Speaker 7: private schools.
20:02
Speaker 1: Now, I ask you, Nikki, and you have one guess.
20:06
Speaker 1: Did Wes Moore and his children go to public schools?
20:10
Speaker 1: I'm going to say no, they did not. Wes Moore
20:13
Speaker 1: went to a private school and his children went to
20:16
Speaker 1: private schools. But to have other families get public money
20:22
Speaker 1: aka our money that we spend to use on private
20:26
Speaker 1: schools where they might get a better education, he finds
20:29
Speaker 1: hugely objectionable. And he finds it objectionable because of what
20:32
Speaker 1: you were referencing earlier, which is when they start losing enrollment,
20:36
Speaker 1: they start losing money.
20:38
Speaker 4: Yeah.
20:40
Speaker 3: I had a very similar conversation many years ago with
20:42
Speaker 3: Honor Holmes Norton who was complaining about the DC Opportunity
20:45
Speaker 3: Scholarship program and how at the time, I mean many
20:47
Speaker 3: years ago, John Bayner was just trying to get money
20:50
Speaker 3: into Catholic schools, right, that was it. It was just
20:52
Speaker 3: a big Catholic plot. And I said, oh, you know,
20:55
Speaker 3: where do you send your son? And he went to
20:57
Speaker 3: Georgetown Country Day And I said, what a privilege for
21:00
Speaker 3: him to attend such an illustrious seol.
21:02
Speaker 4: And it just was like just totally awred. She's like,
21:05
Speaker 4: I know, right, So I.
21:07
Speaker 1: Don't think they know it at all, that this is hypocritical,
21:11
Speaker 1: that just sort of slides right past them. But there
21:15
Speaker 1: are continuing exodus, what's the paral exodus exiti from public schools,
21:24
Speaker 1: and especially in these big districts that stayed closed for
21:27
Speaker 1: a long time that battered these parents, where a lot
21:29
Speaker 1: of parents found out in fact their school leadership was
21:33
Speaker 1: not just sort of neglectful, but actively set against them
21:38
Speaker 1: in some pretty serious tenuous, contemptuous and so they continue
21:44
Speaker 1: to lose folks. And I would just note for Wes
21:46
Speaker 1: Moore that in Baltimore, I believe the proficiency in math
21:50
Speaker 1: is twelve point six and in reading maybe slightly higher,
21:54
Speaker 1: like fifteen percent. So we're doing great, guys.
22:00
Speaker 3: It's really interesting, right, because you'd think that a market
22:03
Speaker 3: mechanism of where you get money per child would encourage
22:06
Speaker 3: you to be responsive to who is ostensibly your customers
22:10
Speaker 3: and say, Wow, they're leaving, Why are they leaving, Where
22:13
Speaker 3: are they going?
22:13
Speaker 4: What could we do that would bring them back?
22:15
Speaker 3: Because at the right people are clearly leaving for content reasons,
22:19
Speaker 3: for discipline, reasons, for any one of a number of things.
22:22
Speaker 3: But you know, as that is happening, they're not They're
22:26
Speaker 3: being told, right, I mean we're seeing this happen all
22:28
Speaker 3: over the place like ll right, well, you're not welcome,
22:30
Speaker 3: your values are not welcome, et cetera. This is also
22:33
Speaker 3: being set against the backdrop of a birth dirth, right,
22:35
Speaker 3: I mean, the number of children born in America has
22:37
Speaker 3: fallen off a cliff, and so there are real pressures
22:39
Speaker 3: that were coming regardless, and there are going to have
22:43
Speaker 3: to be school closures, consolidation, et cetera. Everywhere Red states,
22:47
Speaker 3: blue states, big states, you know, yellow states, purple states, everything,
22:50
Speaker 3: and school districts are fighting that tooth and nail. Right,
22:53
Speaker 3: there are schools in Chicago where there are you know,
22:56
Speaker 3: a handful of children, and it's that per pupil cost
22:59
Speaker 3: at some of those institution usions are northwards of you know,
23:01
Speaker 3: fifty thousand dollars a child. The kids are not getting
23:04
Speaker 3: the extracurricular activities they want, they're not getting a proper
23:07
Speaker 3: school experience. But the unions have fought to keep those
23:10
Speaker 3: schools open rather than closing, consolidating and maybe letting the
23:13
Speaker 3: odd charter school even take over that building in that lease.
23:16
Speaker 4: So it's really it's totally backwards.
23:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and it's gonna get worse. By the way,
23:20
Speaker 1: did you see that story? There was like a month
23:22
Speaker 1: ago Fairfax County Schools purchased a one hundred and fifty
23:26
Speaker 1: million dollar like former private school campus, I think is
23:33
Speaker 1: what it was. It was formerly the King Abdullah Academy
23:36
Speaker 1: in Herndon, Virginia, and they bought it. And I'm like,
23:38
Speaker 1: your enrollment is falling, Why are you buying one hundred
23:41
Speaker 1: and fifty million dollar campus when you need to be
23:44
Speaker 1: closing schools.
23:45
Speaker 3: But they be Fairfax with its four billion dollar budget
23:49
Speaker 3: and twenty five thousand employees. Wouldn't look for one hundred
23:51
Speaker 3: and fifty million dollars in the couch cushions.
23:53
Speaker 1: No, no, but they will try to figure out how
23:55
Speaker 1: to take away Veterans Day to make life easier on parents.
23:58
Speaker 1: To just see that.
23:59
Speaker 4: Story, yeah, it's yeah.
24:02
Speaker 1: You can really see up close and personal the problems
24:04
Speaker 1: when you live in Fairfax County. Fairfax County, for those
24:07
Speaker 1: I know, We've talked about it four on the show.
24:08
Speaker 1: But that district has so many half days and teacher
24:13
Speaker 1: work days and days off for various religious holidays that
24:17
Speaker 1: working parents, many of whom I know, do not know
24:21
Speaker 1: how to put together a school year. I mean it
24:22
Speaker 1: is ludicrous. Their summers tiny because they have to go
24:26
Speaker 1: for so many days. Their weeks are often three and
24:29
Speaker 1: a half four days long, and these poor parents are
24:32
Speaker 1: working five days, so they're just like cobbling together what
24:36
Speaker 1: they can all the time, all while superintendent makes five
24:38
Speaker 1: hundred k. I think we'll figure it out, all right.
24:42
Speaker 1: One more segment coming up on Normally. Oh right, I
24:48
Speaker 1: am back on Normally with my friend Nicki Neely of
24:51
Speaker 1: Defending Education. Where can people follow you, by the way, Niki,
24:53
Speaker 1: so they can find out what you're up to.
24:55
Speaker 3: The organization is at defending ed on Twitter, and I
24:59
Speaker 3: think on insta Gram, I'm not totally positive.
25:01
Speaker 4: And then I'm at Nicky Neely on Twitter.
25:03
Speaker 1: All right, there's lots of good stuff there, so check
25:05
Speaker 1: it out. I wanted to ask you about higher education.
25:09
Speaker 1: This is a fun conversation that they're having on X
25:12
Speaker 1: right now. Tyler Austin Harper, who was a liberal arts
25:18
Speaker 1: college professor but now as a writer for the Atlantic.
25:21
Speaker 1: He writes about the debate over viewpoint diversity in higher ed.
25:28
Speaker 1: He says, here's the brass tax question. Progressive academics seem
25:32
Speaker 1: to want to avoid answering, does anyone seriously believe that
25:35
Speaker 1: a geographer critical of immigration would be likely to be
25:37
Speaker 1: hired by an elite American university? Or would those views
25:40
Speaker 1: put them at a profound disadvantage? He has a whole
25:45
Speaker 1: thread about it. It's just stating obvious stuff. He's a progressive.
25:49
Speaker 1: I believe. He said he's a Marxist multiple times on
25:52
Speaker 1: X like's. I like him because he's a Marxist who
25:56
Speaker 1: lives in Maine and enjoys fishing and like sort of
25:59
Speaker 1: speaks to like a couple different wavelengths, and I appreciate
26:02
Speaker 1: that about him. And he's somebody who's addressing this actual
26:05
Speaker 1: problem Higher ED has. The academics are absolutely crashing out
26:10
Speaker 1: on him.
26:11
Speaker 3: Nikki, he's a cryptot Ryan, Yeah, he's and he's an Yeah,
26:15
Speaker 3: he's an apostate.
26:16
Speaker 4: He should yeah, he should not have done that. He
26:18
Speaker 4: should have just stayed on the team.
26:20
Speaker 3: No, And it's it's sad when facts are now debatable
26:24
Speaker 3: and can get you like defenestrated from your team for
26:27
Speaker 3: saying something that.
26:28
Speaker 4: Is abundantly clear to everybody.
26:30
Speaker 3: Right, I mean you look at the donations from faculty members,
26:33
Speaker 3: university faculty members to political candidates the orientation, right, I
26:37
Speaker 3: mean can self described self censoring.
26:39
Speaker 4: I mean there's you know, any one of a number
26:41
Speaker 4: of poll you know.
26:42
Speaker 3: Data that Christen Soultice has done or right that Fire
26:45
Speaker 3: has conducted research on.
26:48
Speaker 4: And yeah, but it's.
26:49
Speaker 3: This is I think the progressives really believe that Higher
26:53
Speaker 3: ED is their fiefdom. And it is absolutely impossible. How
26:57
Speaker 3: dare you even try and crack that edifice?
26:59
Speaker 1: He says, But can anyone honestly say a scholar whose
27:02
Speaker 1: work is critical of for example, immigration or abortion would
27:05
Speaker 1: have an equal chance of being hired as one who
27:06
Speaker 1: takes progressive stances. If you had to place a bet
27:09
Speaker 1: on a pro or anti abortion that'sist being hired. Who
27:12
Speaker 1: would you bet on? And basically they do the thing
27:15
Speaker 1: where it's both right, we own academia and also you're lying,
27:22
Speaker 1: it's totally diverse. We have really good conversations and debates,
27:25
Speaker 1: even though I'm completely allergic to you even pointing out
27:28
Speaker 1: this obvious reality. And by the way, if there are
27:32
Speaker 1: no conservatives, it's only because only smart people get hired
27:36
Speaker 1: in academia. And they just sounds like Jennifer Well, shut it,
27:39
Speaker 1: Vicky because of all the homeschooling right.
27:43
Speaker 3: No, And it's I mean, it's been interesting to kind
27:45
Speaker 3: of watch how this has gotten to the state it
27:47
Speaker 3: has been over the past.
27:49
Speaker 4: You know, a couple decades. I have worked in higher ed.
27:52
Speaker 3: I have suit a ton of universities, I am on
27:54
Speaker 3: a couple of university boards, and it's things like the
27:57
Speaker 3: diversity statements that became mandatory in many universities years ago,
28:00
Speaker 3: where it's how can we suss out your politics without.
28:03
Speaker 4: Just putting you on the spot and saying, so are
28:04
Speaker 4: you're a Republican?
28:05
Speaker 3: Right, So it's things like that, it's the faculty hiring
28:07
Speaker 3: committees where they're you know, fly specking people's social media
28:12
Speaker 3: pages and their publications for any sign that somebody might
28:15
Speaker 3: not be a Bernie bro And then we get to
28:18
Speaker 3: where we are, and then once they're in, then they
28:19
Speaker 3: pull up kind of the drawbridge behind them and it's
28:24
Speaker 3: only their team that gets in. And so things like
28:26
Speaker 3: academic freedom that were originally put in place so that
28:28
Speaker 3: people could explore and research kind of edgy topics, it
28:32
Speaker 3: has just become a whole mode of group thing, which
28:35
Speaker 3: is not really the point of college unfortunately.
28:38
Speaker 1: No, and they're so convinced of their righteousness. One of
28:41
Speaker 1: these professors is like making fun of the fact that
28:44
Speaker 1: he taught at Baits, I think, and then he's like
28:46
Speaker 1: and he's like, he's a crypto right wing guy and
28:48
Speaker 1: he's just mad that nobody would eat lunch with him,
28:50
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I don't know, I'm sure he found
28:53
Speaker 1: somebody to eat lunch with. This is such an immature
28:56
Speaker 1: way of addressing this actual debate, and they are all
28:59
Speaker 1: many are piling on him with equally middle school girl
29:03
Speaker 1: assessments of this, and he makes the point, Hey, guys,
29:07
Speaker 1: have you ever noticed that you're very unpopular? Ideas of
29:13
Speaker 1: which I share in some ways. I guess he's a
29:16
Speaker 1: liberal guy. Are brought to the public by the public's
29:21
Speaker 1: largess and huge subsidies from taxpayers. So how do you
29:25
Speaker 1: plan to keep those if you don't address that the
29:29
Speaker 1: public does not agree with these things and is sometimes
29:33
Speaker 1: out really hostile to what you believe because you've been
29:35
Speaker 1: out really hostile to them. That's also a thing they
29:38
Speaker 1: don't want to address.
29:40
Speaker 3: Right well, I mean, yeah, you look at pulling about
29:42
Speaker 3: support for higher education that has also fallen off a cliff, right.
29:45
Speaker 3: There are people who are just saying, this is not
29:47
Speaker 3: worth the money, the time, the effort to send my
29:49
Speaker 3: child through to some indoctrination factory for four to six
29:52
Speaker 3: years at a cost of one hundred thousand dollars a year,
29:55
Speaker 3: Like my child is now worth more than my house
29:57
Speaker 3: because of their brain right, And so yeah, people are
30:01
Speaker 3: just like this has really taken a sledgehammer to like
30:05
Speaker 3: how people feel about higher education. That has obviously made
30:09
Speaker 3: its way to the halls of Congress as well as
30:11
Speaker 3: to a lot of state legislatures, and so I think
30:13
Speaker 3: that these academics can continue their folly, but they do
30:16
Speaker 3: so at their peril because there are real talks and
30:18
Speaker 3: you know, among all this bite the belt tightening about
30:22
Speaker 3: what needs to be cut off and when you know
30:24
Speaker 3: what departments need to be eliminated, et cetera.
30:27
Speaker 1: Yes, I think they very much misunderstand the moment. With
30:30
Speaker 1: few exceptions, I have noted some of the California professors
30:34
Speaker 1: who pointed out how far standards have fallen at California
30:38
Speaker 1: State universities and how low some of the skill levels
30:42
Speaker 1: of these kids coming in are, and how that needs
30:44
Speaker 1: to be corrected. So I appreciate people speaking up, people
30:46
Speaker 1: like Tyler and others, even and actually especially from the left,
30:51
Speaker 1: because you need to recruit people of the left inside
30:53
Speaker 1: academia to have these discussions. But I appreciate it, and
30:57
Speaker 1: I don't think most of them understand what's happening in
31:01
Speaker 1: their industry at all.
31:03
Speaker 3: No, and this is also an industry where there is
31:05
Speaker 3: going to have to be mid major closures, consolidation, et cetera.
31:10
Speaker 3: This is happening from coast to coast, and yeah, there
31:13
Speaker 3: are just not going to be enough jobs for people
31:15
Speaker 3: to teach like ethnic studies, gender studies, all this stuff.
31:18
Speaker 4: There is not a demand for it. And with all
31:21
Speaker 4: of the ting going to know what we need them
31:23
Speaker 4: to know, Nikki.
31:25
Speaker 3: But with all of right, like even with the federal
31:28
Speaker 3: government redoing how student loans, like how that portfolio looks,
31:31
Speaker 3: what qualifies.
31:32
Speaker 4: Et cetera. Some of these degrees where there is not
31:34
Speaker 4: a solid or turn in investment.
31:36
Speaker 3: If you're not able to make back your investment in
31:38
Speaker 3: a certain period of time, it's just not going to
31:40
Speaker 3: qualify for some of these loans. And I mean, love
31:43
Speaker 3: me and Barista went to Starbucks this morning, But at
31:45
Speaker 3: the end of the day, is that going to pay
31:47
Speaker 3: back your six hundred thousand dollars master's degree?
31:49
Speaker 4: Probably not.
31:50
Speaker 1: H Yeah, it's we need to learn some trade offs
31:53
Speaker 1: and how that works. That's another thing you can learn
31:55
Speaker 1: in homeschooling. Okay, Well, if you want to look up
31:58
Speaker 1: Tyler Austin Harper on X he's at Tyler Underscore A
32:02
Speaker 1: Underscore again Harper, And you can find him at the
32:06
Speaker 1: Atlantic and you can watch the academics crash out on
32:08
Speaker 1: him as he argues with them about this. By the way,
32:11
Speaker 1: journalists do this as well. They're like, we totally welcome everybody.
32:14
Speaker 1: It's like, if I walked into your newsroom in twenty
32:16
Speaker 1: sixteen with a Maga hat on, you think like y'all
32:19
Speaker 1: would have had a conversation about that. Are you kidding me?
32:21
Speaker 1: Y'all would have fainted and then I would have been fired.
32:24
Speaker 4: All right, yeah, all right.
32:27
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Nikki, thanks
32:29
Speaker 1: for listening to us on normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays,
32:33
Speaker 1: and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get
32:35
Speaker 1: in touch with us at normally theepod at gmail dot com.
32:38
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and when things get weird, act normally