Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Glue Guys, Leadership, and Quarterback Play with Jason Garrett

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Glue Guys, Leadership, and Quarterback Play with Jason Garrett · Rosters to Rings Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to Rosters, to rings everyone. I am Ryan McDonough,
0:08
Speaker 1: joined as always by Dad Levine. This week we have
0:11
Speaker 1: Tom Telesco, former NFL general manager, back with us, and
0:15
Speaker 1: in the second segment, we're very excited to have on
0:18
Speaker 1: Jason Garrett. You see him on NBC for Notre Dame
0:21
Speaker 1: Football and NFL coverage. I also saw him on the
0:24
Speaker 1: sideline in Dallas for almost a decade as the head
0:27
Speaker 1: coach of the Dallas Cowboys. He'll join us shortly, but
0:30
Speaker 1: that and Tom. Where I want to begin the show
0:32
Speaker 1: today is with the Major League Baseball Pennant Races FAD.
0:37
Speaker 1: This is your wheelhouse. There's only about a week left
0:39
Speaker 1: or less than a week at this point left in
0:41
Speaker 1: the Major League Baseball regular season, some fascinating playoff races
0:45
Speaker 1: in both leagues, teams surging, teams collapsing. And the first
0:50
Speaker 1: question I have for you that is, what is this
0:52
Speaker 1: week like? Take us inside the front office, take us
0:54
Speaker 1: inside the dugout. When you're in a Major League Baseball
0:57
Speaker 1: clubhouse with just now days remaining in the season, what
1:01
Speaker 1: does that experience like?
1:02
Speaker 2: It's glorious.
1:03
Speaker 3: I mean, this is what we all play for, right
1:05
Speaker 3: is this opportunity to sprint to the finish line. It's
1:08
Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty two games. You want to see
1:11
Speaker 3: what you have left in the tank. You know, it's
1:13
Speaker 3: a blend of like playing out every machination of who
1:17
Speaker 3: needs to win, who needs to lose for us to advance.
1:20
Speaker 3: You ideally want to clinch by winning. You also can
1:23
Speaker 3: clinch by somebody else losing. It's a little bit less exhilarating.
1:26
Speaker 3: I got to be honest, but there's nothing more empowering
1:30
Speaker 3: for a team to be in that position where you're
1:32
Speaker 3: in the driver's seat that if we win this next game,
1:35
Speaker 3: we have a chance to have a champagne celebration. And
1:37
Speaker 3: you know a few things that I think factor in
1:39
Speaker 3: down the stretch here is you know, on the extremes,
1:42
Speaker 3: like do you clinch early? If you clinch early, how
1:45
Speaker 3: do you handle the balance between keeping your players fresh
1:49
Speaker 3: versus really giving them an opportunity to rest. And so
1:52
Speaker 3: to prepare to answer that question, I talked to Scott Servis,
1:55
Speaker 3: a guy that we had on on an episode previously,
1:58
Speaker 3: to ask like, what's the perspective on that? And he said,
2:02
Speaker 3: like to address that, he simply would have a conversation
2:05
Speaker 3: with the head trainer of the performance lead and say,
2:07
Speaker 3: how is this guy's health right now? We need to
2:09
Speaker 3: prioritize being healthy getting into the playoffs. But beyond that,
2:13
Speaker 3: he was like, I really kind of wanted to play guys,
2:15
Speaker 3: so I'd give them a day or two off and
2:17
Speaker 3: then keep them in their normal routines. The last thing
2:19
Speaker 3: you want to do is give a guy so much
2:22
Speaker 3: rest that you have effectively ice them. And you know,
2:24
Speaker 3: in baseball right now, it used to be in September
2:27
Speaker 3: you could bring up up to forty players. Now you're
2:30
Speaker 3: limited to only bringing up two extra players, so you
2:32
Speaker 3: have twenty eight players on your roster. So he said,
2:34
Speaker 3: ideally you want to rest your starting pitching, but with
2:36
Speaker 3: twenty eight players you can't. So you know, he said,
2:39
Speaker 3: I'd have modified looks for the starting pitchers. We'd go
2:41
Speaker 3: maybe three to four innings rather than five to six,
2:44
Speaker 3: but by and large, you had to keep guys in
2:46
Speaker 3: the mix. On the other end of the spectrum is
2:49
Speaker 3: what HAPs if you're out of it, Like, how do
2:50
Speaker 3: you conduct yourself when you're playing playoff contending teams? Scott
2:54
Speaker 3: felt exactly the same way I did, which is there's
2:56
Speaker 3: an integrity to the game. You feel honored bound to
2:59
Speaker 3: play the best you've got against playoff caliber teams to
3:03
Speaker 3: make sure you're not negatively influencing a playoff race. You know,
3:06
Speaker 3: the last thing you want to do is the perception
3:09
Speaker 3: that you're maybe rolling over against a team that is
3:12
Speaker 3: on the fringes of the playoffs and that propels them
3:14
Speaker 3: into the playoffs. So from a from a managerial standpoint,
3:17
Speaker 3: from a general managerial standpoint, I think you want to
3:20
Speaker 3: play your best when you're even when you're out of it,
3:22
Speaker 3: against those teams that are still in it to make
3:25
Speaker 3: sure you uphold the integrity of the playoff configuration. And then,
3:29
Speaker 3: you know, I talked to Scott a lot about would
3:31
Speaker 3: you prefer to have a buy you know, the top
3:33
Speaker 3: two seeds in Major League Baseball and both leagues get
3:35
Speaker 3: a buye or would you rather just keep playing? You know,
3:38
Speaker 3: you see, you see sometimes these teams have layoffs. So famously,
3:41
Speaker 3: the two thousand and seven Colorado Rockies, they win twenty
3:44
Speaker 3: of their last twenty one games, they really power through
3:47
Speaker 3: until the World Series, but then they have a long
3:49
Speaker 3: layoff and then they really played flat against the Red
3:51
Speaker 3: Sox and ultimately lose the World Series, they had a
3:54
Speaker 3: long layoff, it didn't serve them well. Scott's answer, which
3:57
Speaker 3: was a little bit counter to what I thought, honestly,
3:59
Speaker 3: was if you can always take the buy, always advance
4:03
Speaker 3: to the next round, even if your guys kind of
4:06
Speaker 3: you have to figure out how to keep them engaged.
4:08
Speaker 2: You know.
4:08
Speaker 3: You see oftentimes in baseball, the team that is hot
4:11
Speaker 3: at the end, but who has to play every day,
4:14
Speaker 3: gain some momentum in the playoffs and start surprising some teams.
4:17
Speaker 3: And that's why baseball, and like a lot of other sports,
4:20
Speaker 3: it's not uncommon for a fifth seed or a sixth
4:22
Speaker 3: seed to ultimately win the World Series because those are
4:26
Speaker 3: the teams that have the most I think momentum down
4:29
Speaker 3: the stretch, and it really cares for through the playoffs.
4:31
Speaker 3: But I'd be curious for you guys, how you felt
4:33
Speaker 3: about those those elements as you were preparing for the playoffs.
4:36
Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you what.
4:37
Speaker 5: It seems like Baseball is so much different just because
4:40
Speaker 5: the amount of games and the fact that you could clinch,
4:44
Speaker 5: you know, with weeks to go in the season. And
4:47
Speaker 5: I think about basketball and football that the rest is
4:51
Speaker 5: really important, especially in football, is there's such a high
4:53
Speaker 5: injury right, I will.
4:55
Speaker 4: Say with the NFL, I mean you may get one
4:59
Speaker 4: game at the end of the year.
5:00
Speaker 5: You know, we be Week eighteen, but your seventeenth game
5:03
Speaker 5: that may not have any bearing in the standings. Every
5:06
Speaker 5: now and then you may have two games. When I
5:08
Speaker 5: was with the Colts, we had we were fourteen and
5:11
Speaker 5: oh one year. The last two games had no bearing
5:13
Speaker 5: on our playoff seating. We end up resting players. That's
5:17
Speaker 5: probably a story from a different day because we were
5:19
Speaker 5: going for the undefeated season and the fans are not
5:21
Speaker 5: happy that we didn't go for the undefeated season. But
5:23
Speaker 5: we end up going to the Super Bowl that year.
5:25
Speaker 5: But you know, from a general managers standpoint, in the
5:28
Speaker 5: NFL is such a high injury rate and if you've
5:31
Speaker 5: gotten to that point where you've clinched a spot by winning,
5:34
Speaker 5: you can't you can't move up anymore, whether you have
5:37
Speaker 5: a buyer, don't have the buy and I just don't want.
5:39
Speaker 4: To get players hurt.
5:40
Speaker 5: And then usually have that conversation with the head coach
5:42
Speaker 5: because there are some head coaches that may want to say, hey, look,
5:45
Speaker 5: I want to keep playing, you know, rest versus rust
5:48
Speaker 5: I don't I don't want I want to be sharp
5:49
Speaker 5: going in the playoffs. I've seen it both ways. It
5:52
Speaker 5: can work both ways, but I know from a GM standpoint,
5:55
Speaker 5: I would just get worried about losing, you know, a
5:57
Speaker 5: front line player going into the playoffs with the most
5:59
Speaker 5: important time of the year. Now, we had a year
6:01
Speaker 5: with the Chargers where we had a game at the
6:04
Speaker 5: end of the year didn't mean anything. We end up
6:06
Speaker 5: playing our starters and it worked both ways. We did
6:09
Speaker 5: lose a starter in the game that couldn't play in
6:11
Speaker 5: the playoffs. But in the playoffs we went in the
6:14
Speaker 5: first round and we're up, i don't know, thirty four
6:17
Speaker 5: to nothing at halftime, so obviously, playing our guys, they
6:22
Speaker 5: were ready to play in the playoff game. Now, unfortunately
6:24
Speaker 5: that game we couldn't hold the lead against Jacksonville end
6:26
Speaker 5: up losing in the fourth quarter. Didn't have anything to
6:28
Speaker 5: do with with playing on the guys the week before.
6:30
Speaker 5: But we were sharp going into the playoffs, and maybe
6:34
Speaker 5: some of that was because we played that last.
6:35
Speaker 4: Game of the year.
6:36
Speaker 5: But those are always tough discussions. It will happen every
6:40
Speaker 5: year in the NFL. As far as you know, Rest
6:42
Speaker 5: versus Rust. As a GM, On my side, I'm probably
6:45
Speaker 5: always trying to go more the rest route because I
6:48
Speaker 5: know I can't go if we lose a Pro Bowl player,
6:50
Speaker 5: I can't go to the tree and just pick another
6:52
Speaker 5: Pro Bowl player off and get him ready for the playoffs. So, Ryan,
6:55
Speaker 5: I'd love to hear your thoughts on basketball, because I
6:57
Speaker 5: know you guys played eighty two games, but you want
6:59
Speaker 5: to save guys life two for the playoffs.
7:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very long season start to finish. There
7:04
Speaker 1: is an injury risk, not nearly as high as in
7:06
Speaker 1: the NFL, but you factor that in as well, and
7:09
Speaker 1: just if your superstar goes down, all the planning, all
7:13
Speaker 1: the work you've done to get in that position is
7:14
Speaker 1: really not going to matter if he's not available to
7:16
Speaker 1: play in the playoffs. The teams that historically have won
7:18
Speaker 1: NBA championships have top five to top ten players playing
7:23
Speaker 1: like MVPs. That's how you win. In the NBA, it's
7:26
Speaker 1: more of a top heavy league. But it's fascinating how
7:28
Speaker 1: different coaches and executives view this a little bit differently.
7:32
Speaker 1: In Boston, Doc Rivers was our head coach for nine
7:34
Speaker 1: years twenty four to twenty thirteen. We had a really
7:37
Speaker 1: good run and his thing was always just rests, Just
7:40
Speaker 1: have them be rested and healthy. We felt like we
7:43
Speaker 1: could go on the road and win. We had more
7:45
Speaker 1: of a veteran group there. You know, some guys really
7:48
Speaker 1: want home court advantage, and I think a lot of
7:49
Speaker 1: that depends on the makeup of your team. You know,
7:52
Speaker 1: how mature are you on the road?
7:54
Speaker 4: How well do you travel?
7:56
Speaker 2: The NBA?
7:57
Speaker 1: You got to win four series, seven games series. That's
8:00
Speaker 1: a lot of time on the road. The guys handle that,
8:02
Speaker 1: and can they go into a hostile environment and perform
8:05
Speaker 1: in that environment knowing that historically you're probably not going
8:08
Speaker 1: to get as good of a whistle from the refs
8:10
Speaker 1: and things like that when the opposing crowds going nuts
8:12
Speaker 1: in a playoff series. So really interesting debate in that.
8:17
Speaker 1: One of the things that I was studying that I
8:19
Speaker 1: think is really important as we approach the playoffs in
8:22
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball are the teams that usually end up
8:25
Speaker 1: in the end are the highest spending teams. So why
8:27
Speaker 1: don't you take our listeners inside that a little bit,
8:30
Speaker 1: because we'll hear a lot over the next couple of
8:32
Speaker 1: weeks about Cincinnati and the run they've been on Cleveland, Arizona,
8:37
Speaker 1: you know, being left for dead and making a bunch
8:39
Speaker 1: of forward looking moves. But those teams are right there.
8:42
Speaker 1: But the question I have for you is are they
8:44
Speaker 1: going to be there a month from now as we
8:46
Speaker 1: are pro Talloween and get into the World Series. Because
8:48
Speaker 1: looking at the numbers, history tell you that it's probably
8:51
Speaker 1: the top spending teams who we are going to end
8:52
Speaker 1: up in the World Series.
8:54
Speaker 3: And Ryan, I think he hit on one of the
8:56
Speaker 3: central issues that Major League Baseball is facing right now.
8:59
Speaker 3: It's just so different in your guys sports, Like in
9:02
Speaker 3: baseball right now, there's not really a forum for the
9:05
Speaker 3: Oklahoma City Thunder version of a small market team to excel,
9:10
Speaker 3: or for you Tom, like the fact that Tampa Bay
9:12
Speaker 3: and Green Bay are doing so well this year, Like
9:14
Speaker 3: you just don't see that in baseball right now. So
9:17
Speaker 3: to answer your question, Ryan, the top seven payrolls are
9:20
Speaker 3: slated to make the playoffs. There are twelve teams that
9:22
Speaker 3: will make the playoffs in baseball. Ten of the top
9:25
Speaker 3: twelve right now are ten of the top twelve top
9:28
Speaker 3: payroll teams. San Francisco and Atlanta are the only two
9:31
Speaker 3: right now that don't aren't tracking for the playoffs. The
9:34
Speaker 3: lowest payroll team that is going to make the playoffs
9:36
Speaker 3: this year appears to be Milwaukee, unless Cleveland or Cincinnati
9:40
Speaker 3: come out from the outside, and that's just not great
9:42
Speaker 3: for the game of baseball. So ten of the top
9:44
Speaker 3: twelve representatives will be the ten top payroll teams. That
9:48
Speaker 3: means there's two spots for teams that sit outside of
9:50
Speaker 3: the top ten. And then, as we've discussed before, the
9:54
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven Miami Marlins are the last team in
9:57
Speaker 3: the bottom half of the payroll, So the bottom fifteen
10:00
Speaker 3: apparels to win a World Series. There just isn't enough
10:03
Speaker 3: parody in the game to keep fans truly engaged their
10:06
Speaker 3: chances to get to the playoffs. We're just not seeing
10:09
Speaker 3: those smaller market teams excel in the playoffs. But you
10:11
Speaker 3: also reference some of the numbers, which is just great
10:13
Speaker 3: in the game of baseball. Fan Grafs is a website
10:16
Speaker 3: that does a lot in terms of playoff projections, and
10:19
Speaker 3: they started the season out. What they're using is their
10:22
Speaker 3: assessment of the strength of your roster, but also overlaid
10:25
Speaker 3: against the strength of your schedule, and so they interestingly
10:29
Speaker 3: this year very atypical six teams that they projected to
10:33
Speaker 3: win their divisions. Only one, the Los Angeles Dodgers, is
10:37
Speaker 3: actually now going to win their division, so they went
10:40
Speaker 3: one for six. Very low percentage for fan grafs this year.
10:43
Speaker 3: They also had, just for the listeners to hear, the
10:46
Speaker 3: Atlanta Braves were the second highest playoff percentage is to
10:49
Speaker 3: start this year, over ninety percent chance to make the playoffs.
10:52
Speaker 3: They're going to miss it. On the other side of
10:54
Speaker 3: the spectrum, Milwaukee only had thirty four percent chance to
10:56
Speaker 3: make the playoffs. They're going to be the number one
10:59
Speaker 3: seed in the National League.
11:00
Speaker 2: You know.
11:01
Speaker 3: Teams like the Reds had a nineteen percent chance of
11:03
Speaker 3: making the playoffs. We've got six games left. They now
11:05
Speaker 3: have a forty three percent chance. They're still a lot,
11:07
Speaker 3: very much alive. At the trade deadline this year, the
11:10
Speaker 3: six American League teams had sixty percent or greater chance
11:13
Speaker 3: to make the playoffs. The nationally eighty seven percent or more.
11:17
Speaker 3: For the six teams. Now, all of a sudden, you
11:19
Speaker 3: fastward two months and mayhem has taken place. The Houston
11:23
Speaker 3: Astros of the trade deadline and a ninety two percent
11:25
Speaker 3: chance to make the playoffs, sixty six percent chance to
11:29
Speaker 3: make to win the division. Now they're down to one
11:31
Speaker 3: point seven percent chance to win their division. The Mets
11:34
Speaker 3: had a ninety five percent chance to make the playoffs
11:36
Speaker 3: at the deadline. They're down to fifty percent with the
11:39
Speaker 3: Red surging. And then one team I just want to
11:41
Speaker 3: draw some attention to because they've done something so incredible
11:43
Speaker 3: over the last two years.
11:45
Speaker 2: At the trade.
11:45
Speaker 3: Deadline last year, the Detroit Tigers had a one percent
11:49
Speaker 3: chance to make the playoffs. One percent they sold at
11:52
Speaker 3: the deadline. They built for the future. As you reference
11:54
Speaker 3: the Arizona Diamondbacks have done this year. Not only did
11:57
Speaker 3: they make the playoffs, they won the division and they
11:59
Speaker 3: won a series in the playoffs. Last year as a
12:01
Speaker 3: one percent chance to make the playoffs, this year they
12:04
Speaker 3: may be on the other side of of the percentages.
12:07
Speaker 3: At the trade deadline this year, they had a ninety
12:09
Speaker 3: seven percent chance to win the division. They're now in
12:12
Speaker 3: a three game series with the Guardians to win the
12:15
Speaker 3: division with six games left to play, and it would
12:18
Speaker 3: be a one percent chance for the Guardians to win
12:20
Speaker 3: the division. So the Detroit Tigers and back to back
12:23
Speaker 3: years may be on different ends of the spectrum of
12:26
Speaker 3: one percentile outcomes that could possibly happen. It just would
12:30
Speaker 3: be utterly remarkable in the game of baseball if that
12:32
Speaker 3: actually took place.
12:34
Speaker 4: I got a quick question.
12:35
Speaker 5: So obviously NFL has a hardest salary cap NBA. I
12:39
Speaker 5: believe it's more of a soft salary cap. Well, Major
12:42
Speaker 5: League Baseball ever get to a cap system just for
12:45
Speaker 5: competitive balance. So you're not a fan in a small
12:47
Speaker 5: market that you know going into the season that you're
12:49
Speaker 5: really not competing. But I'm going I'm a buying tickets.
12:52
Speaker 5: I'm going to the game, but I'm watching for entertainment purposes,
12:55
Speaker 5: but I'm not really watching to hopefully win a World Series.
12:58
Speaker 5: We'll ever get to that point with baseball.
13:00
Speaker 3: So Tom, I think you're you're talking about the central
13:02
Speaker 3: point that will be discussed in the next collective bargaining agreement.
13:05
Speaker 3: So Major League Baseball's collective bargaining agreement expires after the
13:09
Speaker 3: twenty twenty sixth season, they'll be tremendous debates between the
13:12
Speaker 3: union and the Commissioner's Office, the union representing the players,
13:15
Speaker 3: the commissioner Office, who represents the owners, and I think
13:18
Speaker 3: that will be the central discussion. So heretofore they've always
13:22
Speaker 3: back down on its insisting there's a salary cap, because
13:25
Speaker 3: that's the biggest point of contention between both sides. There
13:28
Speaker 3: will be a real risk of a workstoppage if they
13:31
Speaker 3: press that point. But I think we're getting to that
13:33
Speaker 3: point in baseball. You know, we celebrate when Tampa, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Cleveland,
13:38
Speaker 3: those types of teams make the playoffs, but the reality
13:41
Speaker 3: is they're just not winning when they get there, When
13:43
Speaker 3: they're when they're facing teams that have upwards of one
13:46
Speaker 3: hundred million more dollars that they're spending at the major
13:49
Speaker 3: league level. It's just showing up in the playoffs. The stars,
13:51
Speaker 3: the star started lineups are winning, and so I think
13:55
Speaker 3: it's something they're going to have to address. Players are
13:58
Speaker 3: really resistant to it. We just us as once before,
14:01
Speaker 3: in rosters to rings. I think there's an opportunity that
14:04
Speaker 3: if we establish a payroll floor, which also doesn't exist
14:08
Speaker 3: right now, and if we raise that enough in a
14:11
Speaker 3: company with a payroll ceiling, then I think there could
14:15
Speaker 3: actually be more money in the game for the players
14:17
Speaker 3: than there currently exists, because we're now forcing the teams
14:20
Speaker 3: on the low end to spend more aggressively. But it's
14:23
Speaker 3: also curtailing the upside earners, and I think it would
14:26
Speaker 3: create a ton more parody in the game, which would
14:28
Speaker 3: be so much more scintillating to the fans as much
14:31
Speaker 3: as Milwaukee is a number one seed right now. But
14:33
Speaker 3: my guess is once we get into the playoffs, they
14:35
Speaker 3: won't be a prohibitive favorite. They may not even be
14:37
Speaker 3: a favorite at all in the first round of the
14:40
Speaker 3: playoffs as they face off against one of these payroll
14:43
Speaker 3: behemas who just has more talent and a little bit
14:46
Speaker 3: more depth at the top of their rosters.
14:48
Speaker 1: I love that salary floor idea that does exist in
14:51
Speaker 1: the NBA. In the NBA, on opening night, you need
14:54
Speaker 1: to spend at least ninety percent of the salary cap.
14:57
Speaker 1: You need to do it before the season starts, because
14:59
Speaker 1: what teams were doing under the old rules is just waiting.
15:01
Speaker 1: They hold open a bunch of salary cap space and
15:04
Speaker 1: use that kind of as a dumping ground for bad
15:05
Speaker 1: contracts with assets attached, whether it's young players or draft picks. Tom,
15:11
Speaker 1: the last question I have for you is relative to
15:13
Speaker 1: the NBA's changed see me, the NFL's change in the
15:16
Speaker 1: playoff format that started in twenty twenty before that six
15:20
Speaker 1: teams and each conference made it and the top two
15:22
Speaker 1: seeds got buys. Starting in twenty twenty, seven teams in
15:26
Speaker 1: each conference make it. Now only the top one seed
15:30
Speaker 1: gets by. You were running the Chargers of that time,
15:33
Speaker 1: later one on to run the Raiders. What material impact
15:36
Speaker 1: if any, did that have for NFL teams, especially the
15:39
Speaker 1: top teams as they were approaching the playoffs.
15:43
Speaker 5: Well, Number one, I think everyone was excited about adding
15:45
Speaker 5: an extra playoff team, every head coach, every GM that
15:48
Speaker 5: and also just you know, there's nothing better in our
15:51
Speaker 5: sport than playoff football, so that you go to seven
15:54
Speaker 5: teams in each conference. But yeah, that buy is critical.
15:58
Speaker 5: It just you know, there's only you know, three playoff
16:01
Speaker 5: games get to the get to the super Bowl, So
16:03
Speaker 5: that is a huge advantage. But if you can't get
16:07
Speaker 5: the buy, it's still in the NFL, home field advantage
16:10
Speaker 5: is very, very important. So you still have teams playing
16:13
Speaker 5: usually gonna have to play it out through all seventeen
16:15
Speaker 5: games to try and get home field advantage at least
16:17
Speaker 5: for the first round. Because obviously in the NFL, elements
16:21
Speaker 5: mean something. You know, whether you know a team plays
16:24
Speaker 5: you know in in Los Angeles, in Sofi Stadium or
16:27
Speaker 5: has to go to Buffalo and play in Buffalo in January.
16:30
Speaker 5: Big difference. So yeah, I think teams are still pushing
16:34
Speaker 5: hard at the end of the year for one of
16:35
Speaker 5: those obviously for the buye but obviously, but the second
16:38
Speaker 5: part is to get that home playoff game. At least
16:40
Speaker 5: the first home playoff game just increases your odds of
16:44
Speaker 5: getting to the next round. So I love the format
16:47
Speaker 5: the way it is now. It's competitive and our season
16:51
Speaker 5: it really is all seventeen weeks. You may get week seventeen,
16:54
Speaker 5: you get a couple of teams.
16:55
Speaker 4: That will rest players.
16:56
Speaker 5: But what the league also did was they tried to
16:59
Speaker 5: weigh more vision games at the end of the season.
17:01
Speaker 5: So if you look at a lot of schedules, there's
17:03
Speaker 5: a lot of divisional games because we're hoping those games
17:06
Speaker 5: are going to affect who the division winner is going
17:08
Speaker 5: to be. That's been a big help to not only
17:10
Speaker 5: for competitive balance, but just for TV ratings as well,
17:13
Speaker 5: to make those games exciting at the end. So yeah,
17:16
Speaker 5: the league's done a great job is trying to make
17:19
Speaker 5: that to make that change with the playoff system.
17:23
Speaker 1: As a fan of the game, it's been great. Stay
17:26
Speaker 1: with us. Right after this, We're going to have former
17:28
Speaker 1: Cowboys head coach, NBC broadcaster for Notre Dame and the NFL,
17:33
Speaker 1: Jason Garrett. We'll be right back on rosters the ranks.
17:47
Speaker 3: Welcome back to rosters, to rings. Alongside Ryan McDonough and
17:51
Speaker 3: Tom teleusco, we are ecstatic to bring on our next guest,
17:55
Speaker 3: Jason Garrett. Jason was born into a football family. Jason's
17:59
Speaker 3: father was an accountlish player, coach and scout. Jason attended Princeton,
18:03
Speaker 3: where he was the starting quarterback. After stints in the
18:06
Speaker 3: Canadian Football League in the World of Football League, Jason
18:09
Speaker 3: played parts of eleven seasons in the NFL for the Cowboys, Giants, Buccaneers,
18:13
Speaker 3: and Dolphins. Jason won three Super Bowls with the Cowboys
18:16
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety two, ninety three, and ninety five. While
18:19
Speaker 3: a member of the Cowboys, Jason played with future Hall
18:22
Speaker 3: of famers Larry Allen, Dion Sanders, Troy Aikman, Charles Haley,
18:26
Speaker 3: Michael Irvin, and EMMITTT. Smith, and for Hall of Fame
18:29
Speaker 3: coach Jimmy Johnson. After finishing his playing career, Jason became
18:33
Speaker 3: the offensive coordinator for the Cowboys before being named as
18:36
Speaker 3: a Cowboys head coach in twenty ten, a position he
18:39
Speaker 3: held for ten years. Jason and his wife Brill founded
18:42
Speaker 3: Starfish Charities, and they are in their twenty fourth year
18:45
Speaker 3: of running a football camp at Princeton for underprivileged kids. Jason,
18:49
Speaker 3: I always felt in baseball when we were building a
18:51
Speaker 3: championship roster, there were two kind of fundamental types of
18:54
Speaker 3: players you were acquiring. One was the muscle, and I
18:56
Speaker 3: thought the muscle was always readily available in baseball. If
18:59
Speaker 3: I want wanted to pay a price for a free
19:02
Speaker 3: agent in salary or in trade and prospect capital, I
19:05
Speaker 3: could go get thirty home runs or one hundred RBIs
19:07
Speaker 3: or one hundred and eighty inx pitched. But the second
19:10
Speaker 3: type of player was the heart and soul player. They
19:12
Speaker 3: were the players who had the ability to elevate the room,
19:15
Speaker 3: to elevate the standards of excellence in the clubhouse, in
19:18
Speaker 3: the locker room, but also they had the spirit to
19:21
Speaker 3: invest in that endeavor. And my sense is that you
19:23
Speaker 3: were that type of player. You were the heart and
19:25
Speaker 3: soul type player throughout your career. When I went to
19:28
Speaker 3: look at highlights of your playing career, there was exceptional
19:31
Speaker 3: night that you had on Thanksgiving when you got a
19:33
Speaker 3: chance to start, But so much more of the video
19:35
Speaker 3: was you picking up players when they came out the field,
19:38
Speaker 3: You challenging them, you celebrating moments with them. My guess
19:41
Speaker 3: that's why you extended your career as a backup quarterback,
19:44
Speaker 3: when you got a chance to play in Tampa, in Miami,
19:47
Speaker 3: and ultimately why you were so successful as a coach.
19:49
Speaker 3: The question I have for you is, you got a
19:52
Speaker 3: chance to play with so many Hall of famers and
19:54
Speaker 3: for a Hall of Fame coach, but I would be
19:56
Speaker 3: curious who are some of those heart and soul players
19:59
Speaker 3: that you got to play with or you got to coach,
20:01
Speaker 3: and how vital was that when you were building out
20:02
Speaker 3: your rosters.
20:04
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I appreciate you saying that, and I
20:07
Speaker 6: take pride in being that guy. You know, I was
20:09
Speaker 6: far far from a cornerstone player. I was fortunate to
20:12
Speaker 6: play for a long time. But I said earlier, I
20:15
Speaker 6: was hanging on by a string. And so you want
20:17
Speaker 6: to contribute in any way that you can. And you know,
20:19
Speaker 6: we were talking about this the other day. You know
20:21
Speaker 6: they have that Netflix documentary going on, you know about
20:24
Speaker 6: the Cowboys in the nineties and so fortunate to be
20:27
Speaker 6: part of those teams.
20:28
Speaker 2: And you know, I've said this out loud. If we
20:31
Speaker 2: don't have.
20:32
Speaker 6: Those cornerstone players, those first ballot Hall of Famers, Michael Irvin,
20:36
Speaker 6: Troy Aikman, Emmett Smith, Charles Haley, these guys that are
20:40
Speaker 6: just off the charts players, we don't win. But the
20:44
Speaker 6: magic of that team, to me, we're so many of
20:47
Speaker 6: the other guys, and you know, the offensive lineman, you know,
20:50
Speaker 6: they got some attention, you know, the.
20:53
Speaker 2: Big Wall, the Great Wall of Dallas or whatever they
20:55
Speaker 2: were calling them.
20:56
Speaker 6: But these characters that we had, you know, the Mark
20:58
Speaker 6: Stepnosky's and the Kevin Gogan's and the Mark Tuene's and
21:02
Speaker 6: you know, these guys that a lot of fans probably
21:05
Speaker 6: don't remember quite as much, but they were the fabric
21:08
Speaker 6: of the team. And Tony Tolbert and Darryl Johnston and
21:12
Speaker 6: you know, so many, you know, just different guys that
21:14
Speaker 6: we had, Billy Bates and I remember we got Elvis Patterson.
21:18
Speaker 2: If you remember Elvis Patterson the end of his career.
21:21
Speaker 6: And just all these different guys, and so, you know,
21:24
Speaker 6: I think Jimmy Johnson's greatness during that time was recognizing
21:27
Speaker 6: the importance of talent, these these guys that were you know,
21:31
Speaker 6: we all rallied around and were star players, but also
21:34
Speaker 6: understanding all those other guys that were so necessary to
21:39
Speaker 6: building a championship team and sustaining a championship team. And
21:43
Speaker 6: for me, I always reflected back on that. When you
21:46
Speaker 6: get in the role as the head coach, you say, Okay,
21:48
Speaker 6: we got to do a great job in the first round.
21:50
Speaker 2: We got it, you know, and I thought we did
21:52
Speaker 2: a really good job.
21:53
Speaker 6: You know, you think about some of those names I mentioned,
21:56
Speaker 6: Tyron Smith and Travis Frederick and Zach Martin and you know,
21:59
Speaker 6: z Elliott and some of these.
22:01
Speaker 2: Other guys we drafted. But then, you know, the magic
22:03
Speaker 2: was always that other guy.
22:05
Speaker 6: You know, that guy who's running down on kickoffs and
22:08
Speaker 6: playing ten plays a game, but just makes such a
22:12
Speaker 6: difference on the team, productive on the field. When he
22:15
Speaker 6: gets his opportunity, he plays well, but he's adding so
22:18
Speaker 6: much more to the team.
22:19
Speaker 2: And you know, when we.
22:22
Speaker 6: Reflect back on those championship teams, we talk about a
22:26
Speaker 6: lot of those guys too. You know, a lot of
22:28
Speaker 6: those role players, a lot of those glue guys that
22:31
Speaker 6: people people like to use that expression, because they do
22:34
Speaker 6: make a difference, and they might be the special sauce
22:37
Speaker 6: on building championship teams really in any sport.
22:40
Speaker 5: You know, let's when I flipped the quarterbacks real quick,
22:43
Speaker 5: because you've you've played with, coached, scouted, you know, thousands
22:48
Speaker 5: of quarterbacks over the years, probably all the way from
22:50
Speaker 5: your backyard at mom with the beach, all the way
22:52
Speaker 5: to the combine. So you've seen them all in the
22:54
Speaker 5: last pray thirty forty years. What are some of the
22:58
Speaker 5: aspects of that position that really are the highest predictors
23:02
Speaker 5: of success?
23:03
Speaker 2: You know, it's a great question.
23:04
Speaker 6: It's so interesting you asked me that because last year
23:08
Speaker 6: we did something with NFL films on the evolution of
23:11
Speaker 6: the throwing motion and derived from a conversation I had
23:15
Speaker 6: with Aaron Rodgers, where one of the best passers I've
23:19
Speaker 6: ever seen in my life, and I just asked him,
23:20
Speaker 6: I said, hey, just give me a thought. I'm throwing
23:23
Speaker 6: and he starts talking about, you know, getting all the
23:26
Speaker 6: weight to the inside of his left ankle, on the
23:28
Speaker 6: inside of his left knee and his inside and jumping
23:31
Speaker 6: onto my left foot, and I'm thinking to myself, what
23:33
Speaker 6: the hell is this guy? Talking about I mean, you know,
23:36
Speaker 6: I've been thinking about this my whole life, and I've
23:38
Speaker 6: never heard anybody say what he's saying. And so I
23:41
Speaker 6: reflected back on, Hey, you know, fifty years ago, who's
23:44
Speaker 6: the best passer?
23:45
Speaker 2: Joe Namath was right.
23:47
Speaker 6: So I used to have this this throwing sequence on
23:50
Speaker 6: my wall, Joe Namath eight throws, bump up, up, up, Bob,
23:53
Speaker 6: And I was kind of like my model, and I'm
23:55
Speaker 6: thinking he was the best passer back then, Aaron Rodgers
23:59
Speaker 6: the best passer. Now they do it completely differently, right,
24:02
Speaker 6: There's been an evolution, and there's all these guys teaching
24:05
Speaker 6: these young kids how to throw now and all of that,
24:07
Speaker 6: and so we did a deep dive into that. And
24:10
Speaker 6: in the midst of this, we talked to Drew Brees
24:13
Speaker 6: and Troy Aikman and Josh Allen and and Dak Prescott
24:17
Speaker 6: and it was a fun little project with NFL Films.
24:20
Speaker 6: I'm thinking about, you know, something we need to we
24:22
Speaker 6: need to pull back and talk about quarterbacks in general.
24:26
Speaker 6: And so this this year it's going to come out
24:28
Speaker 6: this fall. We did something called it's going to be
24:31
Speaker 6: called the Evaluation slash mis Evaluation of Quarterbacks. And and
24:35
Speaker 6: and the question is why do we hit on guys
24:39
Speaker 6: and why don't we miss on guys at this most
24:41
Speaker 6: critical position. And again I go back.
24:43
Speaker 2: To my dad.
24:43
Speaker 6: I can remember going to my first combine. I'm the
24:46
Speaker 6: quarterback coach in Miami, and he says to me, he says,
24:50
Speaker 6: you're gonna go there and you're gonna fall in love
24:52
Speaker 6: with one of these quarterbacks. The way he looks, the
24:56
Speaker 6: way the ball comes out of his hand, he can
24:58
Speaker 6: really throw it. But just from that's only part of
25:01
Speaker 6: playing the position. There's a lot more to it. And
25:03
Speaker 6: so as we're doing this project, we put together ten
25:07
Speaker 6: criteria for evaluating a quarterback and I'll share them with
25:11
Speaker 6: you now. The first is passion for the game. You
25:15
Speaker 6: gotta love it. Two is metal and physical toughness. If
25:18
Speaker 6: you don't have that, you have no chance. Three is
25:21
Speaker 6: your football character, your temperament, your competitiveness, all of that.
25:26
Speaker 6: Four is leadership. It's a leadership position. You got to
25:29
Speaker 6: affect other people in a positive way. And then we
25:31
Speaker 6: start getting into those are all kind of non playing
25:35
Speaker 6: traits right in tangibles if you will. And what I
25:39
Speaker 6: always said was, Okay, I get they're intangibles. You can't
25:42
Speaker 6: see them, but we have to look for the evidence
25:44
Speaker 6: of them, and we have to be intentional about that
25:46
Speaker 6: at all positions, but particularly this position.
25:49
Speaker 2: Okay.
25:50
Speaker 6: Five is football instincts. They come in all shapes and sizes.
25:54
Speaker 6: But if they're not instinctive, they don't have a feel
25:57
Speaker 6: for the game, they don't feel it, and they don't
26:00
Speaker 6: see it, they're not.
26:00
Speaker 2: Going to be very good.
26:01
Speaker 6: I don't care what they look like in the workout.
26:03
Speaker 6: Six is football intelligence. Yeah, you have to be able
26:07
Speaker 6: to take information, process it, articulate it, and most importantly,
26:10
Speaker 6: once the ball snapped, you got to be able to
26:13
Speaker 6: process the game quickly and see overlay your play against
26:16
Speaker 6: their play and make quick decisions. And then we get
26:19
Speaker 6: into the other stuff. It is quarterback arm talent matters. Okay,
26:24
Speaker 6: that's seven accuracy. Okay, you got to be able to
26:26
Speaker 6: throw it where you want to throw it. That's a
26:28
Speaker 6: critical part of it. And then we talked about playmaking
26:31
Speaker 6: ability within the system and also outside the system with
26:35
Speaker 6: your arm and with your legs. And lastly we talk
26:39
Speaker 6: about the traits. What he looks like, how big his
26:42
Speaker 6: hands are, you know, how high he jumps. All of
26:46
Speaker 6: that stuff that is measurable. And so one of the
26:49
Speaker 6: conclusions that I've come to is when we miss, we
26:53
Speaker 6: go backwards. We get enamored with the guy we see
26:56
Speaker 6: at the combine as he's walked out of the field, like,
26:58
Speaker 6: oh my god, you know, and I always.
27:01
Speaker 2: Go back to Troy Aikman. Troy Aikman is the guy
27:04
Speaker 2: that you can become enamored with.
27:05
Speaker 6: Right he walks out and you're like, ah, that's exactly
27:08
Speaker 6: what a quarterback should look like. And then he starts throwing.
27:10
Speaker 6: That's how a quarterback should throw. But haven't played with
27:13
Speaker 6: that guy for eight years and know him really well.
27:16
Speaker 2: I get all that he.
27:18
Speaker 6: Has those traits, but he's a first ballot Hall of
27:20
Speaker 6: Famer because he loves it.
27:22
Speaker 2: He's as tough a.
27:23
Speaker 6: Person as I've ever met in my life. His leadership,
27:26
Speaker 6: his competitiveness, all of those things, that's what makes him
27:30
Speaker 6: who he is. So identifying those those things first, anybody
27:35
Speaker 6: can say, oh, six four two twenty two, he ran
27:38
Speaker 6: four seven one. You know, the ball comes out of it.
27:41
Speaker 6: Anybody can see that. The magic is seeing.
27:44
Speaker 2: The other thing.
27:46
Speaker 6: And something that we have to be realistic about is
27:48
Speaker 6: when you have all those traits, maybe that does help
27:51
Speaker 6: your competitiveness and your confidence and your leadership because you
27:55
Speaker 6: have the physical ability. We're honest about that. But we've
27:59
Speaker 6: all seen a lot of guys who look the part
28:01
Speaker 6: and can throw it who cannot play, and then when
28:04
Speaker 6: it gets hard and it's under duress.
28:05
Speaker 2: They really can't play.
28:07
Speaker 6: So so trying to intentionally identify those things at the
28:11
Speaker 6: top of the list, I think is most critical.
28:14
Speaker 5: We should post those bullet points in every draft room
28:17
Speaker 5: in the NFL. Because I'm the same I used to
28:19
Speaker 5: think the Pro day for the quarterback is such a mirage.
28:23
Speaker 5: I mean, they're out there, they're throwing routes versus air.
28:27
Speaker 5: There's no defense. It's all the same routes they would
28:29
Speaker 5: throw in pregame warm ups if you went to see
28:32
Speaker 5: the player play live. I just I got nothing out
28:34
Speaker 5: of a quarterback pro day, Like we already know at
28:36
Speaker 5: that point of the draft process. We already know the
28:38
Speaker 5: physical characteristics. We have to talk about what you just
28:42
Speaker 5: talked about really one through seven, all those aspects that
28:45
Speaker 5: go into play in the position so much more than
28:47
Speaker 5: what the pro day looks like. But every year, and
28:50
Speaker 5: I've been victim of it too. It and not only
28:52
Speaker 5: a quarterback position. But some other positions is you know,
28:54
Speaker 5: you fall in love with the physical traits and just say, well,
28:58
Speaker 5: we'll fix the rest, or we'll get the rest to come,
29:00
Speaker 5: or hey, we'll put him in our room and we'll
29:02
Speaker 5: get them more competitive.
29:03
Speaker 4: It never happens.
29:04
Speaker 5: You know, Well, it's so yeah, it's just so. It's
29:08
Speaker 5: the hardest position. The coach is quarterb era, the scout
29:11
Speaker 5: his quarterback.
29:12
Speaker 2: Well, to me, you pick one of the best guys.
29:14
Speaker 6: And to me, it's a little bit like Troy Aikman
29:17
Speaker 6: for me because when you go to the.
29:19
Speaker 2: Justin Herbert workout. Wow, I mean, look at this guy.
29:22
Speaker 6: He's actually six six. Look at the ball come out
29:25
Speaker 6: of his hand. He never misses right. But what we're
29:28
Speaker 6: seeing in him now is probably what you saw. I mean,
29:31
Speaker 6: the competitor and how he wants to be great, and
29:33
Speaker 6: how he's going to impact his teammates and all of that.
29:36
Speaker 6: And then you overlay that with all this physical ability
29:39
Speaker 6: and you have this wow player who's going to be
29:41
Speaker 6: there for fifteen more years, and so you know exactly
29:46
Speaker 6: what you're doing.
29:46
Speaker 2: Could you pick the right guy?
29:49
Speaker 5: I had enough chances to do it, but that was
29:52
Speaker 5: It's amazing too, especially the quarterbacks, is there. All their
29:55
Speaker 5: personalities are different, you know, Peyton's, Peyton Man's personality is different,
30:00
Speaker 5: Eli's personality, Justin Herbert's personality is different than Jim Kelly's personality.
30:06
Speaker 5: But there's different ways to lead, and they all lead
30:08
Speaker 5: in different ways.
30:09
Speaker 4: And Justin leads in a.
30:10
Speaker 5: Very it's more of a quiet way, but it's more
30:12
Speaker 5: of a follow me. Now, he's got a little bite
30:14
Speaker 5: to him on game day, but in practice it's basically
30:17
Speaker 5: you follow me, you know, more so than getting in
30:20
Speaker 5: people's faces. And everybody kind of does their leadership in
30:23
Speaker 5: a different way, and it works differently for different quarterbacks,
30:25
Speaker 5: but with him it works in his personality.
30:28
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I think the other thing is is
30:31
Speaker 6: they're not finished products.
30:34
Speaker 2: He's twenty one years old.
30:36
Speaker 6: Right, and so when you think about him, and again
30:38
Speaker 6: I'm watching him from Afar, you know him really well.
30:41
Speaker 6: He loved it, he worked at it, he cared about it,
30:44
Speaker 6: and he the personality is a little quiet, but you
30:47
Speaker 6: know they're going to grow into this when he has
30:50
Speaker 6: confidence in the NFL, when he looks around and says, hey,
30:53
Speaker 6: wait a second, I'm one of the oldest guys on
30:54
Speaker 6: the team. Now I'm gonna take charge, and I think
30:57
Speaker 6: we're seeing that from him this year. He's been a
31:00
Speaker 6: little bit more like willful with everybody, and I think
31:05
Speaker 6: we've all seen players mature. It's different than changing the player.
31:09
Speaker 6: He has all these traits that we don't like. We're
31:12
Speaker 6: going to change him. You're not going to change him.
31:14
Speaker 2: But if you.
31:14
Speaker 6: See some positive things that maybe aren't fully developed yet,
31:18
Speaker 6: like in a guy like Justin Herbert and others, you say, hey,
31:21
Speaker 6: that's part of our job is to help them grow.
31:24
Speaker 6: And I think he'll naturally grow the more he plays,
31:26
Speaker 6: so allowing for that too. Understanding they're not finished products
31:30
Speaker 6: is a big part of this thing, but also understanding
31:33
Speaker 6: there's certain things you can't change and you have to
31:36
Speaker 6: be convicted about that.
31:38
Speaker 5: One more quick thing and I noticed this with when
31:41
Speaker 5: we had Andrew Luck his rookie year with the Colts.
31:43
Speaker 5: Andrew is an incredible leader, but when you come out
31:46
Speaker 5: of college and you're twenty one twenty two years old
31:48
Speaker 5: and you walk into the locker room full of adults,
31:50
Speaker 5: it's hard to lead that way. You just haven't earned
31:52
Speaker 5: it yet. And with him, we're actually trying to push
31:55
Speaker 5: him along as rookie year, go ahead and lead. He's like,
31:57
Speaker 5: I can't lead yet. I'm twenty two years old. I
32:00
Speaker 5: got here these guys. I have teammates that have kids
32:03
Speaker 5: in school. But you kind of grow into that. And
32:05
Speaker 5: Justin is the same thing. Justice is kind of grown
32:07
Speaker 5: into that role over the years. And you're right, that's
32:09
Speaker 5: the development of any position, but certainly a quarterback position
32:13
Speaker 5: developed that leadership role as you mature as an adult.
32:16
Speaker 6: It's so funny to say that because we drafted Dak
32:18
Speaker 6: Prescott in twenty sixteen in the fourth round, and really
32:22
Speaker 6: with the intention for him to be having a chance
32:24
Speaker 6: to be the next quarterback.
32:26
Speaker 2: Romo was our quarterback.
32:27
Speaker 6: We had no intention of him playing as a rookie,
32:30
Speaker 6: and Kellen Moore was our backup. He got hurt, Tony
32:33
Speaker 6: gets hurt, and all of a sudden, Dak Prescott, our
32:36
Speaker 6: fourthront picks, are starting quarterback. And we lost the first game,
32:39
Speaker 6: and then we won eleven in a row and we're
32:43
Speaker 6: in the middle of this streak. And he's the greatest
32:45
Speaker 6: kid ever. And you see that. I mean, I just
32:47
Speaker 6: I love him to death, and I just I grabbed him.
32:50
Speaker 6: I said, hey, hey, how are you doing this? I mean,
32:53
Speaker 6: all these guys absolutely love playing for you, and guys
32:57
Speaker 6: are running through the wall for him. How are you
32:59
Speaker 6: pulling this off? I never see you make a speech
33:02
Speaker 6: or I never see you rally the troops. He said, oh, coach,
33:04
Speaker 6: you know, like I said, I just got here. I
33:07
Speaker 6: can't do that. I said, what are you doing? He's like,
33:09
Speaker 6: I spend a lot of time with him. It's about
33:11
Speaker 6: building relationships. And so if it happened once, it happened
33:15
Speaker 6: fifteen times. You know, we're't game planning on a Wednesday
33:19
Speaker 6: night or Thursday night. You know, after practice we're upstairs
33:23
Speaker 6: and I hear this hooting and hollering down in the
33:26
Speaker 6: locker room. I go down in the locker room. There's
33:28
Speaker 6: twenty guys. It's two hours after practice. They're in the
33:32
Speaker 6: locker room. They're playing hamper basketball with this giant tennis
33:37
Speaker 6: ball and you have to you shoot it, you balance it,
33:39
Speaker 6: it goes into the hoop. I mean they're on teams,
33:41
Speaker 6: they're going back and forth in Prescott's behind the whole thing,
33:44
Speaker 6: you know. And so it's like, spend time with the guys,
33:47
Speaker 6: get to know them, let them know you care about them.
33:49
Speaker 2: All of that, and then and then they're gonna play
33:52
Speaker 2: for you.
33:53
Speaker 6: And obviously he's a much more outspoken leader now, you know,
33:56
Speaker 6: as the face of that franchise, But early on it's
34:00
Speaker 6: it's relationship building, and you know those guys understand that.
34:04
Speaker 6: Andrew Luck gets it, Dak Prescott gets it.
34:07
Speaker 3: You know, guys, it's fascinating in hearing you guys talk
34:09
Speaker 3: about this because in a baseball locker room, I feel
34:11
Speaker 3: like some of the biggest mistakes we made what was
34:14
Speaker 3: asking our best player to be also the best leader
34:17
Speaker 3: on the team, and baseball doesn't correlate quite that closely.
34:21
Speaker 3: You know, there isn't the position a quarterback that just
34:23
Speaker 3: demands a lot of level of leadership and ability to
34:27
Speaker 3: give those rousing speeches. Jason, And you know, I think
34:29
Speaker 3: you also shed light on the fact that leadership comes
34:32
Speaker 3: in a lot of different forms. I think people think
34:34
Speaker 3: of it as the guy who's giving the raw ross speech.
34:36
Speaker 3: But some of the best leaders I've been around, our
34:38
Speaker 3: leaders by example, and the guys who are the relationship builders.
34:42
Speaker 3: But I think in baseball what you see is all
34:43
Speaker 3: too often is the leader of the team. May I
34:46
Speaker 3: actually be the backup catcher or the utility infielder. It
34:49
Speaker 3: is that heart and soul guy who really gets everybody up.
34:52
Speaker 3: And then it's the best player who's leading by example.
34:55
Speaker 3: And when you give them the freedom to be the
34:57
Speaker 3: best version themselves as a leader, they shine. When you
34:59
Speaker 3: ask them to be the guy giving the rousing speech,
35:02
Speaker 3: sometimes they shrink because while they may be the best
35:05
Speaker 3: hitter on the team, or the best fielder or the
35:06
Speaker 3: best pitcher, they may not be the best orator, you know.
35:10
Speaker 3: And so I think putting people in positions to succeed
35:13
Speaker 3: both as your secondary players but also the leaders on
35:16
Speaker 3: your team is just vital to the success of these franchises.
35:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, he couldn't say it any better.
35:21
Speaker 6: You know, we talked about doing this football camp at Princeton,
35:24
Speaker 6: you know, the night before We've done a leadership for
35:27
Speaker 6: him forever, and we have all these different people come
35:29
Speaker 6: in and speak from all walks of life. And early
35:32
Speaker 6: on we had Troy Aikman and Pete Carrill on a
35:37
Speaker 6: panel together, and so we're all talking about leadership and
35:41
Speaker 6: I'm talking about I'm bringing up John F. Kennedy and this,
35:44
Speaker 6: that and the other thing and whatever. Courl's not even listening.
35:47
Speaker 6: He's just drinking beers, grils, you know, he's just the greatest.
35:52
Speaker 2: And then when all dials down and all kind of
35:54
Speaker 2: the lah, and when.
35:55
Speaker 6: Everyone quiets down, he just says, hey, Red, can I
35:58
Speaker 6: ask a question? And I said, sure, coach, And he
36:01
Speaker 6: turns to Akman. He says, hey, Aikman, you know when
36:04
Speaker 6: you throw that that eighteen yard comeback and you put
36:06
Speaker 6: that baby right on the guy's numbers, that's pretty good
36:09
Speaker 6: for your leadership.
36:10
Speaker 2: Huh. And Ty was like, yeah, it is.
36:15
Speaker 6: And so his point wasn't both those guys are cut
36:18
Speaker 6: from the same claw. You can make any speech you on,
36:21
Speaker 6: but so much of it starts with the example you said,
36:24
Speaker 6: by performance and also your approach. And you know, that's
36:28
Speaker 6: a vivid image in my mind that kind of helped
36:30
Speaker 6: with your leadership, didn't it. There, Aikman, you know, and
36:34
Speaker 6: it's true. So you know, credit you to understand that.
36:38
Speaker 6: You know, even if the guy's hitting forty home runs,
36:40
Speaker 6: we're not going to ask him to do some things
36:41
Speaker 6: he's not capable of doing. You go lead that way,
36:44
Speaker 6: We'll get other guys to lead other ways. And again
36:46
Speaker 6: that goes back to the special sauce of these championship teams.
36:50
Speaker 6: People recognize in all those different roles.
36:52
Speaker 1: Jason, one of the best leaders I've seen across sports
36:55
Speaker 1: is Tom Brady, who's made a lot of news over
36:57
Speaker 1: the last week or so. I heard you discussing it
36:59
Speaker 1: with Mike Floria the other night on NBC. As someone
37:02
Speaker 1: who played the game, coached and is now a broadcaster,
37:07
Speaker 1: what is your perspective on Tom Brady as both the
37:10
Speaker 1: Raiders owner and Fox's lead commentator, And if you were
37:13
Speaker 1: a head coach, how would you approach those meetings as
37:17
Speaker 1: far as what you share and do not share with
37:19
Speaker 1: Tom Brady who currently has both of those roles.
37:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, he's greatness.
37:24
Speaker 6: I absolutely love Tom Brady, let's start there. I just
37:28
Speaker 6: think to think about what he did in his career.
37:30
Speaker 6: I mean, he's forty five years old and he could
37:34
Speaker 6: have kept playing, right.
37:36
Speaker 2: He's just a.
37:37
Speaker 6: Remarkable example of an approach and put winning first, and
37:41
Speaker 6: the example and the combination of what we're talking about
37:44
Speaker 6: lead with performance, but also lead in other ways to
37:46
Speaker 6: help people be their best. My admiration for him when
37:50
Speaker 6: they start chiseling the best players ever on the Mount
37:54
Speaker 6: Rushmore of NFL player since nineteen twenty, he's the first
37:57
Speaker 6: face they chisel, right. I mean, he's he's off the charts.
38:01
Speaker 6: So I love the guy, but but I do think
38:04
Speaker 6: it's a tricky thing. And to me, it's not it's
38:06
Speaker 6: not really about him. It's about the NFL. And the
38:09
Speaker 6: NFL has to decide if they're gonna let a broadcaster
38:13
Speaker 6: own a team and be in meetings and have these
38:15
Speaker 6: have these conversations. And you know, so if I'm in
38:20
Speaker 6: Tom Brady's shoes, I'm trying to gather as much information
38:23
Speaker 6: as I can.
38:24
Speaker 2: Tom.
38:24
Speaker 6: You know this before a game in the NFL, everyone's talking,
38:27
Speaker 6: everyone's bs and everyone's doing this. But you know, the
38:30
Speaker 6: great ones are letting the other guy talk, right, and
38:33
Speaker 6: you're listening to your gathering information.
38:35
Speaker 4: It's like a good scout.
38:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:38
Speaker 6: Yeah, So if you're in these roles, you know, like
38:41
Speaker 6: Tom is, Tom's doing exactly what he should do.
38:44
Speaker 2: He's in a conversation. He's gonna take that.
38:46
Speaker 6: He's not gonna overtly cross boundaries on things. But someone
38:50
Speaker 6: just told me something about the Kansas City Chiefs whatever.
38:55
Speaker 6: I'm actually the owner of the Raiders, right am I not?
38:59
Speaker 6: Am I going to keep that to myself?
39:01
Speaker 2: Right?
39:01
Speaker 6: So to me, it's on the NFL to make sure
39:03
Speaker 6: that there's some sort of a Chinese wall there that
39:06
Speaker 6: doesn't allow him to be in certain conversations, and and
39:09
Speaker 6: then he just has to kind of live with whatever
39:12
Speaker 6: those regulations are. But I don't begrudge him at all.
39:15
Speaker 6: He's just he's just being who he is. I just
39:17
Speaker 6: think it's a tricky spot that he's been put in.
39:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's uh, it's so unique to the to the league.
39:24
Speaker 5: I mean, we just had never had never happened. No,
39:27
Speaker 5: so maybe you need to you need to end up
39:30
Speaker 5: any up a little bit so you can get in
39:31
Speaker 5: the same boat.
39:32
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, how about that.
39:35
Speaker 6: Geez, what they're paying for ten percent of these teams
39:38
Speaker 6: for having no say or no voice in anything is
39:41
Speaker 6: just it's unfathomable.
39:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I got one more quick question.
39:46
Speaker 5: So with the Chargers, like Derwin James is as good
39:51
Speaker 5: a playry as he is. He's just an incredible leader,
39:55
Speaker 5: Like he just has that natural leadership where people want
39:58
Speaker 5: to follow him. I Mean I've never or anybody like him,
40:01
Speaker 5: who is the player with the Cowboys that kind of
40:04
Speaker 5: embody the same type of example for you guys, actually,
40:09
Speaker 5: as when you're a player or when you're coaching.
40:12
Speaker 6: You know, I think if you ask all the players
40:15
Speaker 6: back then, I think the consensus answer on the best
40:19
Speaker 6: teammate we all had would be Michael Irvin. And you know,
40:23
Speaker 6: Michael Irvin is a little bit of a lightning rod
40:25
Speaker 6: figure for people because he had some issues off the
40:28
Speaker 6: field and he's a little.
40:29
Speaker 2: Flamboyant and all of that.
40:30
Speaker 6: But you know, I have countless stories about him. You know,
40:34
Speaker 6: you talk about a vision for the team and having
40:37
Speaker 6: your players represented. He represented that team and his competitiveness,
40:42
Speaker 6: his work ethic, all of those things. If you're a
40:45
Speaker 6: young player and you see this guy, I don't know
40:47
Speaker 6: if we have time for it. But one of my
40:49
Speaker 6: favorite stories that I've shared with a lot of people
40:51
Speaker 6: through the years, and I still think about to this day,
40:55
Speaker 6: was we used to do these things called metabolics, And
40:58
Speaker 6: a metabolic was t routes for a receiver, simulating plays,
41:03
Speaker 6: and you would essentially do the route tree. And the
41:06
Speaker 6: idea was you'd run the route, you'd catch the ball,
41:08
Speaker 6: you turn up the field, you'd burst for ten yards
41:10
Speaker 6: and then you jog back and you go again, and
41:13
Speaker 6: and so you know, you would build up when you
41:15
Speaker 6: for early part of the off season you do two
41:17
Speaker 6: sets of metal bollock, so you run in twenty routes.
41:20
Speaker 6: Right the next week it's three or whatever. So we
41:23
Speaker 6: we go through the off season, everyone has that whatever,
41:26
Speaker 6: that three week break, and then we're coming back for
41:29
Speaker 6: training camp. And so I'm one of the backup quarterbacks.
41:33
Speaker 6: I've thrown more balls to Michael Irvin than than Troy
41:36
Speaker 6: Aikman has right, because Troy would throw the real ones
41:38
Speaker 6: and I'd be in the background throwing the one when
41:41
Speaker 6: he'd say, hey, Red, let's go throw, and I'd go back,
41:43
Speaker 6: you know, I'd go throw to Michael Irvin. So we're
41:46
Speaker 6: all away out of town leading up to training camp.
41:49
Speaker 6: We're coming back a few days before and it was
41:51
Speaker 6: the days of voicemail and you know, answer machines, and
41:56
Speaker 6: so we get back to our house and it was
41:59
Speaker 6: a Sunday night. I'll never forget. I think we're going
42:01
Speaker 6: to camp on Wednesday, and I have a message from
42:05
Speaker 6: Michael and it says, hey, Hey, Red, Hey Hope, you
42:09
Speaker 6: guys had a great time off.
42:10
Speaker 2: When you get back in town, give me a call.
42:13
Speaker 6: So this is say three o'clock on Sunday, and then
42:15
Speaker 6: three point fifteen, Hey, Red, Hope hope you had a good,
42:18
Speaker 6: good vacation. Holler when you get back. Now it's three
42:21
Speaker 6: point thirty. Another message, another message. The last message is, hey, Red,
42:25
Speaker 6: when you get back in town, get your ass up
42:27
Speaker 6: to value your ants.
42:27
Speaker 2: We're throwing tonight, right, So so I get back.
42:31
Speaker 6: It's probably seven o'clock at night on Sunday, and we're
42:35
Speaker 6: going to camp two days later. And he's like, I
42:38
Speaker 6: need to get a throw in. I need to run
42:40
Speaker 6: some routes. I need you tonight, and so Texas, let's
42:45
Speaker 6: call it July eighth. It's it's one hundred and five
42:49
Speaker 6: degrees at seven o'clock at night.
42:50
Speaker 2: You guys know this.
42:52
Speaker 6: And so I get up to val there's no there's
42:54
Speaker 6: one car in the parking lot. When I get there,
42:56
Speaker 6: called seven o'clock at night, and I pull in and
42:59
Speaker 6: Mike Michael's not in there, and so I get my
43:03
Speaker 6: cleats on, I put my grays on, I get a
43:05
Speaker 6: couple of footballs or a bag of footballs, and.
43:08
Speaker 2: Here we go.
43:09
Speaker 6: And I go out there and he's out on the field.
43:11
Speaker 6: I'll never forget it for the rest of my life.
43:13
Speaker 6: Only guy in the field and he has his Remember
43:16
Speaker 6: the old Speed TV shoes, those receiver Nikon shoes.
43:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's got campos.
43:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, tempo exactly right. He's got him on.
43:24
Speaker 6: He's got his high wits on like Michael Cooper used
43:26
Speaker 6: to wear. Right, he's got this. He's got this. It's
43:31
Speaker 6: almost like a like a wet suit like girdle on
43:35
Speaker 6: as shorts. He's got his gray shorts stopping wet on
43:39
Speaker 6: top of those. He's got a weighted vest on underneath. Oh,
43:43
Speaker 6: he's got weight He's got weights in the thighs of
43:45
Speaker 6: the girdle.
43:46
Speaker 2: He's got his weighted vest on.
43:47
Speaker 6: He's got his shoulder pads on, his practice jersey and
43:50
Speaker 6: his helmet. And he used to wear this, this Walter
43:54
Speaker 6: Payton mouthpiece if you remember that, it would hang off
43:56
Speaker 6: his and so he's got his mouthpiece and he's like,
43:59
Speaker 6: let's go. And so he's like, you'll give you a
44:01
Speaker 6: five throws. So I get loosened up real quick, and
44:03
Speaker 6: he just wines up on the left. And so we
44:06
Speaker 6: had done this a million times together, so it didn't
44:09
Speaker 6: take a lot of words. Right, So we go slant
44:12
Speaker 6: and then.
44:12
Speaker 2: We go hit.
44:12
Speaker 6: So we go quick out, then we go twelve yard
44:14
Speaker 6: hook bang eight, you know, so we throw the route
44:16
Speaker 6: tree and every time he catch, burst up field, jogged back,
44:19
Speaker 6: boom boom boom, without saying a word. Do ten of them.
44:23
Speaker 6: We're done with ten. You get like a ninety second break.
44:25
Speaker 6: He throws down a gatorad go to the other side.
44:28
Speaker 6: Ten more over there, Okay, same thing. Boom, third, one, fourth, one, fifth, one.
44:33
Speaker 6: We do five sets of metabolics, and he's catching, bursting
44:36
Speaker 6: every time. The last one we do kind of in
44:39
Speaker 6: the red zone. He's scoring touchdowns on every one.
44:41
Speaker 2: Boom boom, boom, boom boom.
44:45
Speaker 6: And the last one he spikes it like Michael Irvin
44:47
Speaker 6: spikes it, and we're done.
44:49
Speaker 2: And I'm about forty.
44:50
Speaker 6: Yards away from him, and I'm just thinking to myself,
44:54
Speaker 6: you kidding me.
44:55
Speaker 2: I mean, this is what it takes. This is what
44:57
Speaker 2: it takes. This is what greatness is. Right here.
45:00
Speaker 6: You know, it's Sunday night. It's freaking eight o'clock at
45:02
Speaker 6: night at Valley Ranch. There's no one around. We're not
45:05
Speaker 6: at Texas Stadium, right, this is a playoff game, sixty
45:09
Speaker 6: thousand people hollering his name, right, this is just greatness
45:13
Speaker 6: right in front of us. And I walked off the
45:16
Speaker 6: field and I said that's what it takes. And at
45:17
Speaker 6: the time it was Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin. He saw
45:20
Speaker 6: himself kind of in this competition with the great. Jerry
45:23
Speaker 6: Rice is the you know, the great receiver of the
45:26
Speaker 6: game at that time.
45:28
Speaker 2: And I'll never forget.
45:29
Speaker 6: It because it was like, Huh, this is what greatness
45:32
Speaker 6: is individually, this is what greatness is collectively for our team,
45:36
Speaker 6: and he represented that, he embodied that, and he brought
45:39
Speaker 6: that out in all of us. Now, Troy Aikman did two,
45:42
Speaker 6: Emmitt Smith, Mark two and a all these other guys
45:45
Speaker 6: did too. But you know, he was that guy. And
45:48
Speaker 6: you know we talked about relationships earlier. He knew everybody
45:51
Speaker 6: on the team. It wasn't like Michael Lervan, I'm a star.
45:54
Speaker 6: I remember my first day he comes in and shakes
45:56
Speaker 6: my hand and says, hey, I know who you are.
45:59
Speaker 2: You know kind of thing. He knew that, he knew
46:01
Speaker 2: the ball boys.
46:02
Speaker 6: He just knew everybody and was just such a huge
46:06
Speaker 6: part of the spirit of those those amazing teams that
46:09
Speaker 6: were a part of So you know, there were so
46:11
Speaker 6: many guys, but you know, he sticks out for me
46:14
Speaker 6: as much as anybody.
46:15
Speaker 5: And you know what, when your best player is your
46:18
Speaker 5: hardest worker. So when then you have young players come
46:21
Speaker 5: in the organization and they say how hard he works,
46:23
Speaker 5: and they say to themselves, I'm not as talented as
46:26
Speaker 5: he is, so I need to work at least as
46:28
Speaker 5: hard as he is, and probably harder.
46:30
Speaker 4: But that just raises the bar for everybody in the
46:31
Speaker 4: whole organization.
46:32
Speaker 5: So I can kind of see why cowboys we had
46:36
Speaker 5: they kind of were who they were because of guys
46:39
Speaker 5: like Troy Been and Michael Irvin, because they kind of
46:41
Speaker 5: set the bar, set the standard.
46:42
Speaker 2: They set the tone.
46:43
Speaker 6: And I can remember years later we had we had
46:45
Speaker 6: a player who was a really good player, a great player,
46:48
Speaker 6: and he was having a hard time, you know, inconsistent
46:51
Speaker 6: with his work and in the off season all of that,
46:53
Speaker 6: and I had Michael visit with him, and I sat
46:55
Speaker 6: in on the conversation, and I can remember Michael saying, Hey,
46:58
Speaker 6: you can make all the interception in the world, you
47:00
Speaker 6: can score all the touchdowns in the world, all of that,
47:02
Speaker 6: but if you don't work out with.
47:04
Speaker 2: Your teammates, you'll never have a voice with them.
47:07
Speaker 6: So we get in the middle of the fourth quarter,
47:09
Speaker 6: we need to drive because you've worked, because you've been
47:12
Speaker 6: in the trenches with them. If you say something, let's go,
47:14
Speaker 6: guys will respond. And if you scored six touchdowns in
47:17
Speaker 6: the game and you didn't do that work with them,
47:19
Speaker 6: you'll never have a voice. And I always thought that resonated.
47:23
Speaker 6: You know, that time you spent, that shared commitment gives
47:25
Speaker 6: everyone a voice. And what we're doing in the critical moments.
47:29
Speaker 6: And again more wisdom from the great Michael Irvin, amazing teammate.
47:34
Speaker 3: You know, Jason, I think that's another measure of a champion,
47:36
Speaker 3: is what do you do when nobody's looking right like
47:39
Speaker 3: they're willing to put in the work And it's not
47:41
Speaker 3: for eyewash, it's because they know it makes them great.
47:45
Speaker 3: Last question I have for you, Jason, is a chance
47:47
Speaker 3: to maybe give a message to the young people out
47:50
Speaker 3: there who aspire to play sports. And I'm going to
47:52
Speaker 3: harken back to the Dallas Cowboys touchdown. Make one slight
47:56
Speaker 3: variation to it if I can. It reads this as
47:58
Speaker 3: a privilege, not a right to play, coach and work.
48:00
Speaker 3: And I'm going to say in sports, it reads for
48:04
Speaker 3: the Dallas Cowboys, but for sports. I just be curious
48:07
Speaker 3: your message to young people in today's age of instant gratification,
48:12
Speaker 3: self promotion, and social media. How do you instill this
48:15
Speaker 3: ideal in athletes of tomorrow.
48:19
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, when I reflect back on it, I
48:22
Speaker 6: just think about the lessons learn, the relationships made from
48:27
Speaker 6: all those different experiences that we had grown up. And
48:30
Speaker 6: I can't remember my dad telling me once he said,
48:32
Speaker 6: you know, some of the most memorable times I've had
48:35
Speaker 6: in sports where when I was changing into my baseball
48:38
Speaker 6: uniform in the back of a station wagon fifteen minutes
48:41
Speaker 6: before the game, when I was playing semi pro, you know,
48:45
Speaker 6: and you know, independent of being part of Super Bowl teams.
48:48
Speaker 6: You know, the opportunity to play and the lessons learn
48:51
Speaker 6: and the relationships you make. You know, we're talking. I'm here,
48:56
Speaker 6: I'm on Long Island. We're gonna have this amazing golf
48:58
Speaker 6: trip over the next couple of days. They got I'm
49:00
Speaker 6: with for the guys I met when I was eighteen
49:02
Speaker 6: years old, right, we played football together in college, and
49:06
Speaker 6: the bonds we form way back when last so many
49:09
Speaker 6: years later. So, you know, besides it being just so
49:12
Speaker 6: much fun to be able to do this, you know,
49:15
Speaker 6: there are so many lessons that you learn that apply
49:17
Speaker 6: to so many different parts of your life, whether you're
49:20
Speaker 6: raising a family or in the workplace, all of that
49:22
Speaker 6: and then the relationships that you make. And you know,
49:26
Speaker 6: I just think, you know, coaches and teachers have such
49:30
Speaker 6: an important role in life to have a positive impact
49:34
Speaker 6: on kids and get them on the right path, and
49:36
Speaker 6: the vehicle of sports allows you to do that as
49:39
Speaker 6: much as much as anything else.
49:41
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm.
49:42
Speaker 6: Hopeful that we all kind of put our phones down
49:45
Speaker 6: a little bit more, get out on the playground and
49:47
Speaker 6: play a little bit more, be part of teams a
49:50
Speaker 6: little bit more. And I don't want to be a
49:52
Speaker 6: guy who's in the stone ages, but it's just an
49:55
Speaker 6: amazing life when you get a chance to do those
49:57
Speaker 6: things if it's something you're interested and so I certainly
50:01
Speaker 6: encourage that, and I encourage those in roles where you're
50:04
Speaker 6: teaching and coaching these guys to take advantage of the
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Speaker 6: opportunities to share the lessons because they last a lifetime.
50:12
Speaker 1: That is Jason Garrett will let him run and get
50:14
Speaker 1: to his golf match on Long Island, which, full disclosure,
50:17
Speaker 1: may not be the best event played on Long Island
50:19
Speaker 1: this week in golf, with the Ryder Cup at beth
50:21
Speaker 1: bat Black in a few days before Jason Garrett for
50:24
Speaker 1: Tom to LESCo for Thad Levine. I am Ryan McDonald.
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Speaker 1: Join us next week and every week right here on
50:30
Speaker 1: rosters to rings,