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Will AI Change the Church Forever? with Christopher Benek · Future Christian

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  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Martha Tatarnic (00:18) Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with the Reverend Dr. Christopher J. Benek. Dr. Benek is an internationally recognized pastor, theologian, and thought leader at the crossroads of faith and technology. His insights on artificial intelligence and theology have been featured in
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  major outlets, including the New York Times, The Guardian, The BBC, Le Monde, and others. He has advised companies, policy makers, and governments on AI's ethical and Societal impact. With more than 20 years of pastoral ministry, he currently serves as pastor of First Miami Presbyterian Church and CEO of the Co-Creators Network, an organization dedicated to the vision of better people, better tech, better world. A reminder before we start today's conversation: please take a moment to subscribe
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  to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Instagram. Shoot us an email at Loren at resonate mediapro.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your support means a lot to us in making this independent podcast possible. Loren Richmond Jr (01:40) Hey, this is Loren Richmond Jr. and I'm pleased to be welcoming back to the show. Been a while. So Chris Benek, thanks so much for being
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  here. I'm looking forward to having this conversation. Christopher Benek (01:50) Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Loren Richmond Jr (01:52) Yeah, I So it's been a while. Do you want to just kind of give for listeners like where you came from, where you're at now, how you got there? Christopher Benek (02:03) Sure. So with regard to this particular episode, we're talking about AI. So back in 2009, I think it was, I entered into a... Doctor of Ministry Program in Theology and
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  Science at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and that was the first of its kind, I think, in the world. It was mainly thinking through my classmates. I think I might have been the only person that hadn't had a formal... vocation and science before going into ministry. So it was like scientists who had pivoted into ministry. And so I came out of that ⁓ after working on issues surrounding emerging technology, transhumanism, ⁓ artificial intelligence, ⁓ and really... had some press that kind of
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  made things really explode. I was ⁓ interviewed for an article in Gizmodo and I said something that I didn't think Christ's redemptive purposes were necessarily limited to human beings. Loren Richmond Jr (03:18) Yeah. Christopher Benek (03:18) And the Daily Mail, for some reason in the UK the next day, took, without talking to me at all, took a picture of me, stuck it on the front of the tech page with me, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Stephen Hawking. And we were just off after that. It was
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  like, it was all over the place, all these conversations. And back then, this was like 2014 or 15, Loren Richmond Jr (03:39) Right. Christopher Benek (03:45) No one really understood why a pastor would be talking about AI. ⁓ They were really confused. It was kind of actually an ongoing joke. ⁓ People were asking, like, is he going to baptize our Roombas? What happens when you put water on a robot? And I had written some serious academic work about it. So I was trusting that somebody would pick
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  this up. Loren Richmond Jr (03:48) Mm-hmm. Ha ha! Christopher Benek (04:07) And I was practicing in ministry. I've been a pastor in the PCUSA for the last 20 years at this point. And sure enough, and when I say it was a joke, it was really a joke. Like I did a bit on The Daily Show. Like it was that level of a joke. People just didn't understand it. But a guy named Clarence Page, who's a syndicated columnist for the Chicago Tribune, wrote an article, and I'm paraphrasing him, but he
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  essentially said, look, you all think this is a joke, but he's actually asking a question. that is going to define our time, which is who's going to teach our AI ethics. And so this has been kind of a moment ⁓ that now I think that the world has ⁓ kind of waken up a little bit to the fact that AI is truly here to stay. Now this has become ⁓ a question that is really ⁓ within the church and also then a question about how do we actually approach that question of Loren Richmond Jr (04:42) Hmm.
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  Christopher Benek (05:07) AI and ethics from a Christian perspective. so ⁓ my background is I have ⁓ that advanced degree. I've also got ⁓ Master Divinity from Princeton Seminary and Master of Theology from Princeton Seminary. I'm working on a PhD in eschatology and technology in the theology department of Durham University in the UK. And I'm currently the pastor at First Miami Presbyterian Church, downtown Brickell in Miami, which is kind of the tech and finance hub of Miami. So I have a
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  multi-ethnic congregation more than 50 different nationalities represented in the church I serve and a bunch of tech people who are in that. congregation. actually just during Lent, we actually went through a couple chapters of my book together and had these just amazingly rich conversations about AI and ethics. And it was just really fascinating to hear all these people who work in tech or who are tech adjacent ⁓ talk about their experience and how they're integrating their faith into the
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  work that they're doing and how they're seeking guidance and wisdom in the midst of that. so ⁓ So it's been a really interesting season for me. Things have ebbed and flowed as they do in ministry, but you know, excited to see how God has developed these things. Loren Richmond Jr (06:38) Yeah. Yeah, you're in it, man. You've got a lot going on. So let me ask this because I usually ask folks about spiritual practices. What do you think, like, ⁓ I've, I've wondered like if in 10 years are
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  sermons going to be delivered by like an AI chatbot, you know, or an AI sermon, for instance, in a, in a faith community and church. Like, what do you think about spiritual practices more and more being shaped by technology and AI? Christopher Benek (07:12) Well, I think it is being. ⁓ so I think, you know, there's, there's the old example of the lot, I to, you know, Loren Richmond Jr (07:22) Right. Christopher Benek (07:23) didn't like the technological change. at the end of that, it's not
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  that the Luddites didn't have legitimate points to make. It's that technology kind of continues to move along. The market drives things. There are other elements around that. And I think part of what's important for us to do is to kind of step back and kind of have a larger hermeneutic of... technology in general. So I think I've shared this with you before, but kind of my ⁓ main thing that I've written about. Loren Richmond Jr (07:48) Yeah. Christopher Benek (07:57) ⁓ that's kind of got
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  traction as a relatively new idea theologically ⁓ is that, you I say, hey, ⁓ you and I aren't God. We can agree to that. And most people will agree to that. If not, we're available for counseling, right? So, you and I aren't God. And by comparison, then we're God's alternative intelligence. So we're God's AI. Artificial, they're still, ⁓ it's kind like when we say virtual reality. Loren Richmond Jr (08:12) Ha ha ha. Christopher Benek (08:27) ⁓ It's really an alternative reality. If you spend
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  time in virtual reality, you figure that out pretty quickly. So the same thing, we're alternative intelligence, just like ⁓ animals, like my cat is an alternative intelligence. And so my argument at a base level is that everything we experience in nature is technological. Loren Richmond Jr (08:27) Yeah. Christopher Benek (08:49) So there are things that we co-create with God, like a child with their parent, right? And we kind of have this lower level technology. But if we start looking at
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  everything, all matter is being divine technology, then we start to have a hermeneutic by which we think about this. So formationally, we can't help but be formed by technology. ⁓ It is a reality of our being. The question is, how are we Loren Richmond Jr (08:56) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (09:19) being intentional to steward that towards the purposes in our case as Christians of Christ. so, and how are we, you know, being in line with what the Holy Spirit is doing. So, I use and I've openly
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  said there's an article in the dispatch that they wrote ⁓ that talks about AI and sermon use. I totally use AI to help me prepare my sermons. ⁓ I, ⁓ now I do that and I say I've been in ministry more than 20 years. I've written many, many, many, many, many countless sermons without any technology ⁓ outside of my computer or kind of the things we might identify as divine technology, but not this kind of co-created advancements in the same way. So, ⁓ so, Loren Richmond Jr (09:51) Yeah. Right.
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  Christopher Benek (10:11) As we think through that, it's I've had some formational practice in that. And I've been formed, I know what my voice is. And so I can, for example, I can take an LLM, pick one, and I can assign it to my website where I have lots of, ⁓ you know, my opinions on theology and technology. website is ChristopherMag.com and I can ask it to write a sermon on particular passages with an appropriate prompt ⁓ using my voice. Now what I typically use that for is I will not leave
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  that, whatever it comes out with, because from my style the LLM isn't going to capture what I am. But what I use that is an iterative starting point then to kind of co-create with the LLM to go through and edit because the LLM has Loren Richmond Jr (10:56) Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (11:04) no concept of my people. When I am preaching, it doesn't look into their eyes. It doesn't engage their interaction. ⁓ The LLM has no sense and AI at this point, I'm not saying never, because again, I
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  would say we're a form of alternative intelligence. But when we're talking about our co-created AI with God right now, it doesn't, as far as we know, engage with the Holy Spirit in any way. To me, that's an essential element. Loren Richmond Jr (11:06) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (11:34) we're preaching to somebody is still like are we in tune with what the Spirit of God is doing, right? ⁓ So I think we need to be careful to not just outright say no we won't use this tool, but
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  with wisdom then we need to come back and we need to discern and say well what is an appropriate use for me? So I'll give you another example. We've got a guy in our church his name is Caesar Evander and he's an anthropologist. Loren Richmond Jr (11:38) Yes. Yes. Christopher Benek (12:04) psychologist at FIU ⁓ in Miami. ⁓ He started ⁓ using typewriters a lot. Loren Richmond Jr (12:06) Okay. Christopher Benek (12:16) And he said, because the typewriter actually helps him to kind of lock into
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  a different formational gear. Like there's no backspace, there's no, so we started a typewriter club that we've just started with, ⁓ we call it Keys of the Kingdom. ⁓ And so we've got a bunch of these typewriters and now we've gone downtown into Coconut Grove here and Black Sheep Coffee, which is a big coffee brand out in the UK and now they've got a couple brands. And we said, hey, we'd love to do something here. Loren Richmond Jr (12:22) Yes. Yes. That's awesome. huh. Christopher Benek
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  (12:46) with your coffee shop and now we're partnering with them to do this. And part of that is just to say, it's like, look, that's another form of technology, right? But it's to say, what are the points of emphasis that we want to focus on as we use technology? And how do we with discernment and wisdom think through that, right? And if someone wants to join Keys of the Kingdom, they can look it up on Instagram. ⁓ It's there. so, but, know, it's using technology formationally to say, Loren
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  Richmond Jr (12:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fun. That's fun. Christopher Benek (13:15) hey, here's something I really recognize that I need to work on. I need to spend more time with God and be more intentional about every keystroke that I put in. The words that I create, I wanna have times where I'm really thinking about exactly what is coming out of me. And as we think about the preparation of a sermon, then we have to understand how God works with us individually to do that, right? So my
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  recommendation is like, look, if you're just coming out of seminary, ⁓ written many sermons, don't start using AI to drive your sermon direction because I'm not sure formationally that's going to help you. If you have some sense of identity, it can definitely help you to aggregate information more quickly. And for me, it's great because I'm like miserable at a good transitional sentence. And so like it'll give me five options to be able to transition my paragraph quickly and then I can adapt
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  one of those. So, but this is all done in wisdom and Loren Richmond Jr (13:50) Right. Right. Right, Yep. Christopher Benek (14:15) And I think, and this is part of why ⁓ I wrote Church Leader's Guide to Artificial Intelligence, and actually Tri-Tank, which is the innovation lab ⁓ of... ⁓ Virginia Theological Seminary. I think you've had Lorenzo on your show, haven't you? Yeah. And so they're the ones who actually put this out. ⁓ And part of the reason was this, because I think it's really
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  important that churches start discerning how they're called in their unique context to use AI and to help guide people for them to discern how they are. So in other words, it's not having... ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (14:31) Right, right, right. Christopher Benek (14:57) you know, just an ecclesiastical authority who doesn't necessarily have any training on this, just say, this is how you're going to all do it. ⁓ Instead of that actually contextually saying, so what are the things we need to be
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  considering? Because for example, in my multi-ethnic church, people look at AI a lot differently because of where they may be from, right? If they're from the islands, they think about it differently. If they're from South America or Africa, they think about AI differently. If they're from Asia, they think about things differently. And so those insights in the Holy Spirit actually help to shape how we think about it in community. ⁓ And it allows us to think about, how are we going to play well
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  with others with this? And how is God calling us to do this? And I think that's really unique to each congregation. I think it's as groups of Christians gather, it's really important that they formationally take the time to ask those questions. instead of just assuming that the powers on high will answer them for them. Because one, I'm not sure the tech giants of the world have the formational training. The ones that I've talked to, usually they're coming to us to ask how to do that
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  formationally. And then in addition to that, I'm not sure ecclesiastical authorities, they have complicated jobs. So like I'm not trying to give anybody a hard time. But the question is do they? Loren Richmond Jr (16:03) Absolutely. Right. Right. Right. Christopher Benek (16:27) actually have the time to discern and can they discern at the kind of ground level with individuals ⁓ how people are called in the spirit. So I actually think this becomes like a grassroots movement and instead of
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  having a top-down ethic ⁓ on AI it becomes a formational thing where people already have the skills that God has given them, the giftings, the context, and if we provide a platform for them to be able to speak into that ⁓ then they're able to Loren Richmond Jr (16:40) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (16:57) ⁓ they're able to actually with wisdom describe why it is and how it is that we should do these things and then that element of community together actually helps us to have a wiser ethic than we
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  would have had if we were out on our own. So my book is not, ⁓ my book is not prescriptive in any way, shape or form. It is suggestive and probably the most helpful part of the book, ⁓ because AI is constantly training, is the back of it where there's a study guide ⁓ where people can work through the study guide. And we spent six weeks, two hours a session for six weeks during Lent. And we got through, we only got through two and a half chapters of those questions because the, the, Loren
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  Richmond Jr (17:18) Yeah. Wow. Wow. Christopher Benek (17:41) people were so invested in the conversations. It was really a wonderful thing to see. And so I'm excited for people to do more of that and to hear how contextually people are using that. Loren Richmond Jr (17:43) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask this because I'm just seeing the headlines like today as we're recording this in early April that Anthropo, Anthropic, excuse me, is in the news. They're hesitant about releasing their new
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  AI. It's not, I can't remember the headline, but it's not ready for the public. Something of that effect. You, you talked about who is going to teach our AI ethics. you write about the importance of the cultural vacuum or the cultural context that forms AI. I mean, we're obviously living in a time where ethics is a challenge. And many, in many contexts of our government and our society. Yeah. Talk more about what you think of all this. Christopher Benek (18:38) Well, with Anthropic A, the good
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  news is Anthropic, ⁓ is... saying they want to hold up because they're concerned. And there's other people that are saying they're concerned. I know like the stock exchange and again, our people are in finance. I'm usually pretty attuned to what's happening with the stock market just because I'm attuned to my people. Right. And so, you know, I know the stock exchange, they had a meeting on this on Anthropic because they're worried about the disruptive nature of ⁓ this product being able to
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  effectively infiltrate Loren Richmond Jr (18:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (19:14) ⁓ digital systems and the chaos and disruption that could create. So imagine, for example, if you have an AI and it's able to hack into some element of the stock exchange, disrupt the tech sector, I mean, it can pick whatever, right? All of a sudden you have ⁓ global commotion. ⁓ The thing is, I live in Miami, there is always a commotion. Loren Richmond Jr (19:16) Right. Mm-hmm. Right.
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  Christopher Benek (19:42) Behind my church this Sunday at 830 we have a 9 a.m. classical service. We have three services. We have a 9 a.m. classical. We have a Spanish fusion service that's at 10 and then at 11 we have a contemporary service. Loren Richmond Jr (19:56) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (19:57) At 830 behind my church, they're going to implode a building. Like the Mandarin Oriental that's been there for a long time, they're imploding it to build a bigger skyscraper, right? So it's going
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  to have like a major thing. There's always a disruption in our lives. Always. Anybody, if you don't believe me, you just need to live a little longer. You're going to have something, you're going to have something you didn't expect. The question is formationally when that happens, Loren Richmond Jr (20:02) Wow. Yeah. Christopher Benek (20:27) how are we going to respond, right? Are we going to panic? Are we going to live in fear? Or are we actually going to live in faith? And that's part of
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  the challenge with some of this and the wisdom. Yes, it's great they're having conversations. They should have conversations about is something dangerous? Could something hurt somebody? ⁓ The question is, is are we going to go to extremes on that? Are we going to have conversations with decency and decorum? ⁓ Which I think is part of what you're alluding to is Loren Richmond Jr (20:28) Yeah. Christopher Benek (20:56) missing in the conversation. Instead of us sitting down, like in our church,
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  we have three covenant values and the first two are no drama. We all have drama, but we don't make drama up and bring it to the church, right? And our second one is play well with others, right? I think those are two covenant values that can be taken into places like the public square that would actually be beneficial to people. And certainly in this AI conversation, ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (21:11) Right. Yeah. Christopher Benek (21:26) There's a there's an opportunity because people don't have
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  it figured out to have more points of unity. So I think this is a place where people who have theological differences on other issues can actually kind of put to the side some of those ⁓ smaller issues, frankly, and start to look at a bigger issue like this that has huge implications. And not to say that the, you know, quote unquote, smaller issues are small to the individuals they Loren Richmond Jr (21:49) Right. Christopher Benek (21:56) effect. But it is to say that when we fight about
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  those things, right, we don't actually help the people who are involved with those things. But when we come together and we actually have a productive conversation and we say, well, what is the actual unifying piece here? What is the middle ground that we can agree to? How can we how can we move the ball down the proverbial field and bring about a better sense of justice and fairness and care? Like, how can we do those things? I think then we really get into Loren Richmond Jr (21:57) Mm-hmm.
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  Sure. Christopher Benek (22:26) to a deeper, richer expression of what it means to be a Christian in a modern context. that's, ⁓ know, the AI issue is just the latest issue for us to really come back to the issue of how are we being formed as Christians. And ⁓ I think it's also really important, and this is where pastors have a lot to offer in this, is there's always an expert at a university, Loren Richmond Jr (22:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Christopher Benek (22:56) there's always ⁓ an influencer on
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  TikTok or somewhere who will tell you what you should believe. But pastors have this unique opportunity to ⁓ care for shepherd and steward people and actually have them gather in the spirit and discern together what they should believe and what God is calling them to do. And so if we actually take that seriously ⁓ with regard to AI, Loren Richmond Jr (23:02) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (23:26) It actually creates this depth and richness in our community and it doesn't have to be AI. can be all
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  sorts of things. But AI is an easy one right now because ⁓ kind of the usual, you you have fears and you have excitement about it and it's actually a great place for us to start to have these conversations so that we can care for our people in a way that actually meets a practical need that they will then express in other aspects of their life as they move along. Loren Richmond Jr (23:33) Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (23:56) And so that's why to me it's really an exciting opportunity
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  because there's a chance for the church actually to really be the church in a rich and unique way that brings wisdom to each of our communities ⁓ and a value proposition that I hear people in the tech industry crying out for. ⁓ And so it's a pretty exciting time in my opinion. Loren Richmond Jr (24:19) Yeah, yeah. How do you think like a pastor or a church leader would begin to facilitate those kinds of conversations? Because I think, know, stereotypically, someone in tech might think, the
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  church is the last place I should go to for insights. Christopher Benek (24:41) Well, think the thing that we underestimate in churches is how many people are already doing this stuff in their daily life. And this is because science and technology are both like this with the church. Like, kind of historically, you know, people have just kind of checked their proverbial science card at the door when they walk into the church. Like, the church has nothing to say about that. Now we're going into
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  the mystical mystery of religion and we're going to just leave our science at the door. But I actually think, I actually think that Loren Richmond Jr (24:56) Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (25:18) That's kind of a mistake on behalf of the church to encourage that mindset, right? I've got a friend, Dan Wohlport, who is in my doctoral program with me, and Dan has a genetics degree from Berkeley, and then he became a pastor. And he regularly said, look, the scientific method, I'm
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  paraphrasing, but he said the scientific method is how we test things, right? So if we have a repeatable event, we test something over and over, and then Loren Richmond Jr (25:23) Yeah, yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (25:48) we kind of figure out, how does that work? But we shouldn't eliminate revelatory experience that people have, because if you talk to people about their faith, you know, you'll get kind of ⁓ these kind of mystical... Loren Richmond Jr (25:59) Mm-hmm. Christopher
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  Benek (26:08) reflections from people. They'll say, I really felt God because the light came through the trees just a certain way and I knew God was present in that moment. And Dan's argument was, well, ⁓ don't discount that revelatory experience because it is a data point. Loren Richmond Jr (26:17) Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (26:26) It's not one that science can test again and again and again right now, but it would not be scientific to ignore data. So we need to actually take into
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  consideration those regulatory experiences, right? And we need to actually then think about, well, what does that have to do with everything else? So when we start talking about science and technology, we, one, need to invite technologists into those conversations in our congregations. Loren Richmond Jr (26:46) Yeah. Christopher Benek (26:56) Most churches have people that work in the tech sector in some way, shape, or form. We need to have those conversations with them now. So this isn't like
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  you have to go bang on the door of Microsoft to get in. And there's great people at Microsoft that welcome some of those conversations, I'm sure. But it's actually starting where we're rooted already. Loren Richmond Jr (27:01) Right. Yep. Christopher Benek (27:20) as pastors and caring for the people who are right in front of us and letting them make the inroads to these conversations. So we have people who come who don't come to anything else. have people who come came to the AI group that ⁓
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  have not come to church, but they heard in the middle of the AI group that this church was having a conversation about AI and nobody is philosophically having these conversations where you can just show up and participate in the conversation. Loren Richmond Jr (27:36) Interesting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Christopher Benek (27:50) in and they were really respectful. They had a lot of decorum because of how we had framed things, right? And we had these deep conversations and then all of sudden they
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  start to see the church in a different way than they've seen it before as a conversation partner. And this is where the church and science actually have a lot to offer, particularly in the hypothesis phase, which is kind of where we're at right now with AI. Like we don't know how it's going to play out and kind of what's interesting about advanced AI is Loren Richmond Jr (27:56) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Right? Christopher Benek (28:20) It gets more ⁓ unpredictable as AI gets more advanced. And this is
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  why everyone's worried about it. But actually at the hypothesis stage, that is where the church does great theology and tries to make sense and meaning of things, right? Where then science is saying, okay, so if that might be the case, so then how do we find a way to test it and see if scientifically we can prove it's the case? Loren Richmond Jr (28:30) Right. Hmm. Yeah. Christopher Benek (28:50) I that's a place for us to then step into the conversation in a meaningful way. But we can't
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  hide from that in our churches, in our conversation. And I tell people all the time, in my congregation, I regularly say, don't take my word for it. I tell them, don't trust pastors, because in South Florida, every church down here has had denomination, has had some kind of pastor scandal. So I'm like, walk with people and see if they're worthy of being trusted. I'm like, fact check. Loren Richmond Jr (29:06) Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Christopher Benek (29:20) me if I say something you have a LLM in
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  your pocket like if I say something and it doesn't resonate don't assume that's coming from God you know I mean that's probably the the Loren Richmond Jr (29:24) Right? Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (29:31) The stuff that sounds great, that is validated, that's probably coming from God. The stuff that's not, it's probably coming from me. Like know the difference when I'm talking about something. But encouraging them to actually use tools actively, right, and use them in positive ways, I think is
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  part of the way that we shape and mold how people are doing it. It's like we're not hiding from it, we're not saying we're afraid of it, we're not saying we're not gonna use it. Our staff uses these tools all the time, they help us. Loren Richmond Jr (29:37) Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (30:01) But it but it's encouraging people to say okay, but be wise about how you use it, right? Don't just like don't don't go to chat GBT and use it to take all your financial planning Because you're gonna
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  end up broke if you do that, ⁓ you know like And it's just it's just understanding understand when you're in an echo chamber ⁓ The question is can you understand when you're in echo chamber when you're not using an LLM? Loren Richmond Jr (30:14) Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Right. Christopher Benek (30:28) Right? Loren Richmond Jr (30:28) Well, it's. Christopher Benek (30:29) And that's because this formational thing that's just kind of basic to existence in that larger hermeneutic. Loren Richmond Jr
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  (30:33) Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you're emphasizing this wisdom and formation and these things that the church offers. You you talked about meaning making. That's something that I would use as the chaplain that, you know, in a crisis situation, I'm trying to help people make meaning of the situation. And I think that's a great point to bring up about, ⁓ about using AI to help people or tech to make meaning. You write about the book about helping folks understand their value, their identity,
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  their belovedness in Christ. I think certainly this could be a challenge. So do you want to talk more about how that's important for a church so folks aren't just reduced to like the value of their productivity or, know? Christopher Benek (31:17) Yeah, I mean, I think this is another fascinating thing that AI is kind of pushing us to, right? Because all of a sudden we start... You know, and I've been writing, I mean, there was an old McKinsey Global Institute thing that was saying 11 to 22 %
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  of jobs could ultimately be replaced. And the danger is not that new jobs won't be created because tech always creates new jobs, but the danger is the gap in between. Like there's a training gap. If you've been a truck driver for 40 years and all of a sudden Waymo is driving your things around right now, then you have to figure out how to be retrained in a way while you're keeping your family going. Loren Richmond Jr (31:35) Right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. ⁓ Christopher Benek (31:55) Right. So this
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  is a place one where the church can meet people as they and walk with them They might not be able to outright fix the person's problem ⁓ Many times people come and I can't fix their problem Like if someone dies, I can't fix their problem if their relationship is broken in a way that's ⁓ Unhealthy and probably not gonna be able to be repaired right and they know that there's a morning that is going on and that and so I'm not gonna be able to fix all that so Loren Richmond Jr (31:56) Mm-hmm.
• 4:16
  Yeah. Right. Christopher Benek (32:25) So I don't try to make it my point to fix those things, but more to walk with people in it. Now with regard to like ⁓ how we think about people being ⁓ unique, then what happens is we have to say, look, if my job is taken, what does that mean for my identity? Loren Richmond Jr (32:30) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (32:53) For instance, I've dealt over my career with many people who've been imprisoned and when they're in prison for whatever the reason is,
• 4:20
  they get stripped of what the identity was they had before. And then when they're released from prison, they have to kind of redefine who they are and God, right? And this becomes a difficult thing. And the thing that happens when these things get stripped from us, like all of a sudden, you know, I'm a truck driver and my job's no Loren Richmond Jr (33:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (33:22) longer there and that was my identity for the majority of my life is then we have to actually
• 4:24
  start to make meaning about like well actually was that my identity right ⁓ or or is the fact that I'm loved by God actually more my identity Loren Richmond Jr (33:25) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Christopher Benek (33:37) as a person, right? And these become really rich conversations with people, which is difficult for people because grace is often difficult to accept. And to understand how freely it's given and how ⁓ God looks at us ⁓ with such love that so many times we don't understand how we
• 4:28
  could possibly deserve. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (33:37) Yes. Yes. Right. It is. Christopher Benek (34:07) and yet we still receive over and over and over. so walking with people through that ⁓ is a wonderful thing, but I think that's one of the great joys of being a pastor ⁓ is we get the moment when they, a lot of times, have that aha, right? Where they've realized how loved they are. ⁓ when you experience the love of Christ, I'm not sure anything Loren Richmond Jr (34:11) Yeah. Absolutely.
• 4:32
  Christopher Benek (34:37) else will ever do once you've had that feeling, right? And so ⁓ it's just a, that's a wonderful thing. So I think again AI is this moment where we get to remind people of these truths that Jesus was teaching and at the time the disciples really weren't processing, they didn't get their heads around. I'm not sure today we always process and get our heads around, but there's still the lessons we need to be learning. Loren Richmond Jr (34:39) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 4:36
  Yeah. This is good. I want to ask you about, had a quote in the book talking about the AI being the most significant tech shift in church history. Like some might push back and say, that's the printing press. So I want to couch it in this way. My podcast co-host Martha Titornik has a book coming out on Anne Boleyn and her influence in the ⁓ formation of the Church of England. As she writes in the book, a lot of like her influence came through books that were printed, that she read, that she
• 4:40
  passed along to Henry the 8th. And how do you see then, cause I can imagine in similar ways in our current time of AI having a similar significant influence in faith and tech and church. Christopher Benek (35:56) Well, I think... It's important to remember like, like a now, ⁓ and as somebody who's put a book out, like the, one of my points of insistence was that it was actually available on audible also because, ⁓ because the percentage of people who are actually reading physical books now has
• 4:44
  dramatically declined, right? People are more likely to listen, ⁓ IE why you're not putting the transcript out for this, ⁓ but, but you're Loren Richmond Jr (36:12) ⁓ Right. Yes. Christopher Benek (36:28) but you're actually, it's an auditory experience, right? They're more likely to listen and do this. So that's actually a shift that we're seeing, The difference with the printing press, for example, which by the way, I think like 9 % of people in Germany were literate when the printing press
• 4:48
  actually came out. So it just happened. Many of them were priests or rich aristocrats who didn't want to pay taxes, which is part of why Luther had the change. Loren Richmond Jr (36:31) Hi. Wow. Yeah. Christopher Benek (36:56) more than probably what he wanted, I would say, happened that did. But the difference with AI is, AI is not like when you print a book, we still print books in a not totally dissimilar way, right? They've upgraded the technology, it's more efficient, how you get it on
• 4:52
  the page. When you talk about AI, you're talking about something that integrates in everything. Loren Richmond Jr (36:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right, Right. Yeah. Christopher Benek (37:23) ⁓ Like, we don't even have the faintest idea as to where it will go. We just know because of the exponential rate of... increase in expertise that we're seeing, ⁓ that it is going to change things as we know it. Because it already is. Like AI has found ⁓ multiple ways to cure cancer by aggregating vast
• 4:56
  amounts of data that humans might have been able to do, but it would have taken us generations to come up with, and AI is able to do it quickly. So when you start to understand how much data it can actually aggregate, ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (37:53) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (38:05) it is able to aggregate to solutions more quickly. Now there's a whole bunch of things like to have conversations about because the parameters by which it comes up with things depends on what AI system
• 5:00
  you're talking about. It depends as much on the person who initiated it, but it's not even as easy as just saying, hey, we're going to give you a value set and stay within the value set. Like AI does wacky things that people don't understand why. Loren Richmond Jr (38:25) Yeah, right. Christopher Benek (38:35) does wacky things. And so, ⁓ for me, the question is ⁓ not what's happening now. I think, you know, we were talking before we started, like, 2014 I'm having these conversations and
• 5:04
  they're just people kind of looking at me like what's wrong with you? Like why are you talking about this? This isn't that important. When the LLM revolution kind of happened then everybody's like this is actually real and now if you look there's a bunch of people in and ⁓ at least academics ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (38:55) Ha ha. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (39:11) know, influencers who are talking about AI and religion at this point. And there are some significant commissions at a higher up level
• 5:08
  of people who were talking about it in various denominations. I think the challenge becomes as we kind of move forward with this is we have to begin to envision a future that... is not able to be envisioned. the way that I think we do that is by focusing on the tools that Christ has already given us to prepare us for the disruption. So again, there's always something, you know, they're blowing a building up behind us. We had the EDM Ultra Music Festival a couple of weeks ago in Miami, you know,
• 5:12
  it's a wild... In Miami, there's always a disruption. Every day, all the time, we're used to it. And the question is, is when the Loren Richmond Jr (40:03) Yeah. Christopher Benek (40:07) disruption comes, how are we going to respond to it? So, so ⁓ I don't need to really prove anything with regard to the printing press and whatever. I just like wait and see like, you know, 10 years from now, come back and see, I right? And but but I think what you're going to see is actually if you and this
• 5:16
  is part of why I wrote the book the way I did. Loren Richmond Jr (40:12) Yeah, yeah. Christopher Benek (40:36) is if you start going through and seeing everything that AI is already in, it dwarfs the printing press already. Because it's in everything that you're dealing with. You have AI helping you to do this podcast right now, whether you acknowledge it or not. And so the thing is, we're using it so seamlessly. Loren Richmond Jr (40:42) Hmm. Yeah, or certainly after the fact I will.
• 5:20
  Right. Christopher Benek (41:00) And I would actually argue we've been using it all along because I would say we're alternative intelligence. We've been seeing it. Our very existence is a form of this, right? We just don't have that lens. We're not looking through that lens as we look at it. We're othering it right now as opposed to saying, okay, well, what part of this is of us, right? And what part is a new creation that God is doing something worth some other alternative form of
• 5:24
  intelligence? Loren Richmond Jr (41:22) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (41:29) And how are those things helpful and not? And how are we going to help guide and steward it? If we truly believe that we are divine caretakers of creation, there should be a way forward. Right? And this is why I don't get to, mean, I know people get really dystopian about AI. You know, they make Terminator movies and things like that. But from my perspective, we recognize that Christ has already won the victory. So.
• 5:28
  Loren Richmond Jr (41:57) Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (41:58) And we're called to participate in the redemptive purposes of Christ to help redeem creation, right? Renew creation. And I kind of hold to NT Wright's concept of heaven and earth interlocking, whatever that means, right? So ⁓ that vision that we see biblically, and so if we know that is the end, we don't need to really worry about the end. What we're worried about is the in-between. Loren Richmond Jr (42:12) Yeah. Yeah.
• 5:32
  Christopher Benek (42:27) And how are we actually cultivating that? How are we being formed? How are we being divine caretakers? Right? How are we stewarding this process? How are we eliminating suffering that is negative? How are we eliminating injustice so that we're actually really living into our full potential as these participates and the redemptive purposes of Jesus. And if we start looking at that, then we don't really have to be afraid, right? But we just need to Loren Richmond Jr
• 5:36
  (42:36) Yeah. Christopher Benek (42:55) do the things that Christ is calling us to do. Now, anybody who's been in ministry knows, easier said than done, right? It's like, love your neighbor. ⁓ piece of cake, not really, actually. And so these are the things where that's not sexy. In a place like Miami, where there's always a new thing, that isn't sexy, but it is gritty. And when people come in the door, and after they've kind of... Loren Richmond Jr (43:02) Haha. Christopher Benek (43:24)
• 5:40
  done enough of trying to chase the newest thing, right? They come in the door and they realize, and what I tell people is like, we came up with, we call them the five foundations of ministry in our church. Worship, discipleship, mission, stewardship, and care. And we tell people when they join the church, once a month we want you to check in, we did it so they can do it on their hand. How are you doing in worship? Are you engaged in worship? How are you in discipleship? Are you in the word or in
• 5:44
  a Bible study? Loren Richmond Jr (43:28) Right, yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (43:54) How are you doing in mission? How are you serving other people? It doesn't have to be through First Miami. It could be through another organization. There's lots of great nonprofits here, but how are you serving others? How are you, you're stewarding your time, your talent and your treasure, right? Like, cause where your treasure is, that's where your heart will be, right? And, and, and, and how are
• 5:48
  you caring for others and how are you caring for you? And after, you know, each month you go through and you say, Hey, how am I doing in each of these? And you may say, Hey, I'm doing great in this one. I'm doing great in that one. This one, I need a little help. Loren Richmond Jr (44:01) Right. There will your heartbeat. Yep. Christopher Benek (44:24) And sometimes it's like exercise, you know what you were supposed to do, you just didn't do it, so now you gotta go do it. ⁓ Or sometimes you
• 5:52
  just don't know and you come talk to us and we might not know either, but we'll walk with you until we figure out what's gonna work for you. But what I tell people is if you do that over the course of the year, if you check in once a month on those five foundations of ministry, after a year goes by, you'll be able to articulate how specifically you have grown in your relationship with Jesus, right? Loren Richmond Jr (44:44) Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (44:53) And why is that? Well, it's because
• 5:56
  people have been attentive to their spiritual formation. And so many times people go to church for a couple of years and then they're like, I don't want to go here anymore because I'm not getting anything out of this. Well, it's because they've not been putting the work in and they haven't had the tool to do that. So we help them to be able to do that. this is, I think, the case with everything in our life, right? Like if we're pursuing God's relationship with God, Loren Richmond Jr (45:05)
• 6:00
  Right, right. Christopher Benek (45:23) in First Miami through these five foundations or whatever the spiritual discipline is that you're going through formationally trying to grow in that relationship, you'll see your health continue to grow. And again, I tell people, don't take my word for that. Try it, prove me wrong, right? Prove me wrong that if you do these things after a year, but I've not had anybody who's able to do that because this is not a me thing. Loren Richmond Jr (45:45) Yeah.
• 6:04
  Christopher Benek (45:51) It's what Jesus teaches us, right? And we've just summarized it in a way for people to be able to tangibly do that. So I don't think that's any different for any issue that we deal with in life, whether it's AI or other things. Like if we're working on these things and we become holistically more healthy as in spiritually healthy, then whatever comes, whatever the disruption is, whatever the chaos is, then we have the calm to go and address that because our peace relies
• 6:08
  on Loren Richmond Jr (45:53) Yeah. Christopher Benek (46:20) Jesus at that point and our formation is rooted in what God has called us to be ⁓ as divine caretakers. And to me that's such a freeing thing at that point because I don't have to run around like Chicken Little and worry that the sky is going to fall or the AI is going to eat me or whatever the fear is. I ⁓ can formationally go through this process. Loren Richmond Jr (46:32) Yep. Yep. Christopher Benek (46:48) And yeah, there'll be
• 6:12
  ups and downs. There'll be things that we try and that we improve on. I'm not worried with AI. think we're on the front end of it. I think usually when we develop new technology, there's always like a rough patch. And take it like something simplistic, like an iPhone, right? When an iPhone comes out, if you're one of the people who stands in line at the, which I'm never that person. Like I'm not an early adopter because I want the... Loren Richmond Jr (47:03) Mm-hmm. Ha Christopher Benek
• 6:16
  (47:17) the 15 year olds to go buy their thousand dollar phone or whatever with mom and dad's money, right? And then they're gonna play on that phone for the next six months and Apple is gonna figure out all the problems that were in it. And then six months later, that phone is gonna be a far superior product than it was because people have iterated through and said what works and what doesn't. Now imagine all those people who did it are formed in the teachings of God. Loren Richmond Jr (47:20)
• 6:20
  Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (47:43) Their feedback as to what works and what doesn't work, what's important and what isn't important, it's gonna be really different and that product is gonna be different. And I think as pastors, that's part of our goal is to speak into that formational practice for technologists and for people in general as we hope to co-create the world with God around us. Loren Richmond Jr (47:46) Yeah. Let me ask you one more question here. I'm thinking about use
• 6:24
  the word dystopian. I'm thinking like I've seen whether on social media or other articles, can't remember like questions around like, can, could AI be demonic in some ways? and I, I'm not sure like how seriously I take those other than that, or takes those ideas other than that, like I can recognize technology being usable for good and evil. ⁓ what? What comes to mind around that for you? Christopher Benek (48:36) Well, you know, there's an old adage, the devil made me do it. And what I would
• 6:28
  say is I think we like to give the devil way too much credit. Like, I think most of the time it's I made me do it because I made a bad decision. And if I take responsibility for my actions, then usually my situation is better, right? Like, and that means a lot of times people don't want to face the fact that they need to go talk to somebody professionally. They need to actually work through their stuff. Loren Richmond Jr (48:39) Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (49:05) because they
• 6:32
  have hurt and they have various issues that have happened to them sometimes. It's not anything that is their fault even, but that they need to work through. And so, yeah, can we use technology for evil? Absolutely. I mean, we've got lots of proof of it. We're dropping missiles on people as we speak, right? And I don't see anywhere where Jesus tells us to drop missiles on people. So... Loren Richmond Jr (49:13) Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (49:31) ⁓ So, you know, so I think the thing is is
• 6:36
  yes technology can be used for evil it can also be used in Depending on your views on things to bring about justice and it can be used, you know, so so it's again it's and as can we Right if you take that hermeneutic I'm talking about and we're divine technology, right? ⁓ Then can we be used for good and evil? Yeah, we got plenty of examples of it, right? Loren Richmond Jr (49:41) Mm-hmm. Right. Christopher Benek (49:58) And so the question is, how are we going to each day, every moment,
• 6:40
  choose Jesus? And how are we going to go through it? you know, it's like if people are like, yeah, this is going to be used for evil. Well, it's like, well, so what are you going to do about it? Like, what are you going to do about it? And we can sit as church practitioners on the outside and just complain and moan about the problems of the church, or we can actually get in the mud and we can... Loren Richmond Jr (50:14) Yeah. Christopher Benek (50:27) be with people and we can help them to
• 6:44
  work through the things that they need. I'm convinced in this emerging age, the world ⁓ needs the church more than ever. And I think this is one of the things where, ⁓ you know, there's disruption, how people are gonna be paid to do the work that they're doing, how they're gonna make a living. I think these are great problems for the church to struggle with, to deal with. Loren Richmond Jr (50:38) I agree. Christopher Benek (50:54) But the mission of Jesus has not changed because of that
• 6:48
  disruption. I believe that God has given us the creative tools as the body of Christ to be able to figure out ways to do it. But we're not going to get that if we're fighting with one another. We're not going to get that if what we're trying to do is ⁓ go into the church and essentially just control the church for the sake of feeding our egos or whatever. That stuff's not going to happen. Loren Richmond Jr (50:56) Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (51:23) ⁓ But if we live in the Spirit of God, if
• 6:52
  we have authentic conversations with one another, if we're able to be vulnerable with one another and we sacrifice of our time and our talents and our treasure to actually build the kingdom, ⁓ I don't think there's anything to fear at that point. I think it's goodness to come. And so to me, it's like, I can understand why a guy like Elon Musk freaks out and says, hey, AI is going to kill us all. I'd also point out, he said that, and now he's building what looks like a robot army that he's going
• 6:56
  to market to everybody. So, you know, you got to say, well, the richest guy in the world, how'd he get so rich? You know, let's think about think two thing. But I can also understand theologically why he might hold that if he doesn't have the hope of Christ directing his formational path. Yeah, it looks pretty dystopian and pretty scary. But when you see, yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (51:57) Ha Yeah. I how you keep, I was just say, I love how you keep bringing it back to formation in Christ. Like
• 7:00
  I think that's such an important point. Let me ask you, let me ask you some quick closing questions here because I'm running short on time and I want to get your thoughts here. If you're meeting with a Pope, like if you have, if you get a meeting with a Pope tomorrow, what are you telling him about AI? Christopher Benek (52:46) that he should encourage local congregations to have groups that discern on this issue, ⁓ which is gonna be a little counter to the impulse of the Catholic Church. And I
• 7:04
  say that, my wife is a practicing Catholic, so who actually helps work at First Miami and ministry and does all this stuff. So I have deep respect for the Catholic Church, ⁓ but I would say, ⁓ know, Pope... Loren Richmond Jr (53:00) Yeah it is. Right. Right. Christopher Benek (53:16) Pope Leo has shown wisdom, which I've been grateful for. ⁓ And I think the wise thing at this point is not to make it a council of bishops who are making these decisions because they don't have the tech expertise
• 7:08
  to make those decisions. What they can help with is they can help in the midst of technologists to help formational conversations to go in ways that are healthy. Loren Richmond Jr (53:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a point. Christopher Benek (53:42) And so there's a great opportunity that someone like the Pope who has great influence ⁓ is able to bring that wisdom into the conversation. But also to be careful not to like, ⁓ look, I am, ⁓ I'm considered an expert in this, but I'm not a technologist,
• 7:12
  right? So it's like the, it's a really important distinction. Loren Richmond Jr (53:49) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (54:10) I'm not like in my garage building a robot right now. I'm not building an LLM. There are people who are doing that that have ethical decisions as they do that. And I don't need to be that to be a positive influence in their lives. I need to be what God has called me to be, which is a pastor who's informed on this issue. Loren Richmond Jr (54:13) Right. Yeah.
• 7:16
  Yeah. Christopher Benek (54:33) to speak wisdom into their lives in the ethical context they have. And I have people, they say, hey, I work for Meta and I'm not comfortable with the decision that's going on and I'm not sure how do I deal with this? And we commonly have a conversation to say, well, how do you engage the people who are around you in a way that you're a peacemaker, but you're also showing them how long-term this is in their best interest to make an ethical decision, right? And so
• 7:20
  I'm not... Loren Richmond Jr (54:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Christopher Benek (55:02) In Meta I don't work for Meta, but I'm able to speak into that. And in the same way, ⁓ church leaders, be it the Pope or be it the pastor of a 10 person church in rural Iowa, have the ability to speak into their context in those ways. And those are significant. And we need to encourage them to be able to live into that God given role that God has called them to. Loren Richmond Jr (55:16) Mm-hmm. Okay, yes no. 10
• 7:24
  years, are we looking back on AI positively or negatively? Christopher Benek (55:40) Well, it depends on who you talk to. I think negative or positive, mean, I think there's going to be people who are going to look back and complain because we have that. Like, I don't think in 10 years we'll have it figured out. I think it's still going to be emerging. so I think there's going to be a both and is the reality. I think there are some things we're going to look at. Like right now, I think there's
• 7:28
  things about AI. If we thought it was all bad, we'd just be like, shelve this. Loren Richmond Jr (55:46) Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah. Christopher Benek (56:09) Nobody's calling for that because there are things that are incredible that you can do with AI right now. So nobody wants to go back to not having GPS in their car. Do you want to go back to going to the gas station and getting your map? No. I don't want to go back to my old Motorola Razr and not have my smartphone applications.
• 7:32
  Nobody wants to go back to that. So I don't think we're going back. I don't think that's happening. Loren Richmond Jr (56:13) Right. Yeah. Right. No. Nope. Nope. Christopher Benek (56:37) I do think 10 years from now it's very possible we're not gonna have the world's problems all figured out and we're still gonna be working through that process. But the truth is, I don't know and I don't profess to know what the future will be. I think it's really important that we pay attention to what
• 7:36
  we're doing in the present because that will help to determine what our future will be. ⁓ And so. Loren Richmond Jr (57:01) Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good. Any, any thoughts about how you hope Christianity or the church will, I mean, again, we've, we've centered this on AI, but whether it's tech or anything in the future, what do you hope for with Christianity and the church and tech? Christopher Benek (57:21) Well, I think we're already starting to see the church is going to
• 7:40
  look like different things, right? So ⁓ some of the institutional advantage that the church has had, it's either going to leverage those things. And I think there's places, first Miami is a good one, where we've leveraged our property in a development that is going to be able to help us to systemically help the city ⁓ in perpetuity and beyond, right? And so I'm excited about that because our multi-ethnic congregation Loren Richmond Jr (57:26) Yeah, yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek
• 7:44
  (57:51) gets to lead that. And I think we a lot of times talk about in the church the value of having multi-ethnic congregations, but we don't really put our money where our mouth is on those things. So God has found a way to do that in this place and I'm excited about it. I think that's a larger conversation. I think right now you're in a pivotal moment where churches need to really evaluate ⁓ how they're using their properties. There are churches that have very valuable properties and ⁓ Loren
• 7:48
  Richmond Jr (57:52) Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (58:18) And there's some of those churches are on hospice right now and they need to have a conversation about how do they leverage their property to fulfill a gospel mission in a more full way as opposed to just ⁓ easing them into a slow death, right? And so I think those are really, those are important conversations. I think there's like major conversations about, you know, what it's going to look like for pastors long-term. Loren
• 7:52
  Richmond Jr (58:33) Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (58:43) ⁓ to be employed by the church, whether the church has resource. I think you're gonna have fewer and fewer of traditional opportunities and I think the church is gonna look more hybrid and frankly gonna need to look a little scrappier than it's been in the last hundred years or so. And I actually kind of welcome that. think pastors, ⁓ clergy, church leaders tend to be Loren Richmond Jr (58:59) Yeah. Christopher Benek (59:12)
• 7:56
  ⁓ very creative, ideative type people. And so I actually think, ⁓ you know, sometimes the pressure is what makes the diamond, right? And so, you know, and so I really, I'm kind of excited about that. I know ⁓ it's difficult, but I think it's important for us to understand that a lot of times in the midst of those difficult situations, that's actually when we're being formed. And so... Loren Richmond Jr (59:23) Yeah, yeah. Christopher Benek (59:39) So I actually there's a formational moment
• 8:00
  that we're in right now. I'm optimistic about how it will go, but that's because I really, I believe the Easter message. Like I believe it. Like I'm not just saying I believe it. I believe it through and through and I believe it because I've had experiences. Not that I could prove them to you using the scientific method, but. Loren Richmond Jr (59:51) Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Benek (1:00:04) I could testify to what I've seen God do over and over. And at some point I just can't ignore that, at
• 8:04
  least in my own life and in the lives of the people around me. so, I'm incredibly optimistic about the future of the church. ⁓ I'm incredibly, I have so many friends who are just wonderful pastors who are doing good work in the middle of hard situations ⁓ and just genuinely honored and proud to like have them as colleagues. Loren Richmond Jr (1:00:11) Yeah. Christopher Benek (1:00:34) that there, that there, that there, I mean, we have some just wonderful, incredible people in the church. and
• 8:08
  for, know, and, and, ⁓ and I think the church is, I'm, I'm encouraged that it seems like the church is starting to learn more and more and call out more and more its failures to try to be a corrective. And, and this is a great, this is a great thing. I mean, us, ⁓ reforming as the body universal, ⁓ you know, reforming and always reformed according to the word of God. Like I think. Loren Richmond Jr (1:00:51) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christopher Benek (1:01:04) that has real value today. So ⁓ I'm
• 8:12
  optimistic about the future and I look forward to ⁓ what it means to be a future Christian. Loren Richmond Jr (1:01:18) Love it. That's a nice name drop there. Thank you for that. Chris's book is Church Leaders Guide to Artificial Intelligence, Understanding AI's Impact on Ministry, Theology, and Culture. Chris, where can they get this? Where can they connect with you online? Give all your stuff. Christopher Benek (1:01:35) Sure, my personal website is ChristopherBennett.com. If you want the
• 8:16
  book, can get it on Amazon or Audible, but it's all over. It's in Barnes and Noble. Just go online. You'll find it. ⁓ It's everywhere at this point. So it's great. Loren Richmond Jr (1:01:46) Okay. Make sure I have links for that in the show notes. So Chris, it's always great talking to you and we always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. Christopher Benek (1:01:57) and also with you.