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The Veteran’s Betrayal: The Murder of Matthew McLaughlin · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You know that incredibly specific feeling you get when you
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: lock your front door at night?
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: You turn that deadbolt. You hear that solid metallic click.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: And there's just this immediate, like almost subconscious exhale. Right.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: It's this universal assumption that whatever chaos or whatever danger
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: is out there in the world, you know, you've successfully
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: shut it out.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Like the house is the sanctuary here. And the threat
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: is strictly on the outside.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Well, it's deeply rooted in our evolutionary psychology, right? Securing
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: the perimeter of the den. Yeah. The human brain just
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: craves that spatial division between the unknown threats roaming the
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: wilderness and the trusted allies sharing the fire inside. Right.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: If you're inside the perimeter, you are safe.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: But then you step into the reality of the case
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: file we are unpacking today, and that entire foundational assumption
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: just shatters.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Because we're looking at a landscape where the deadbolt isn't
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: locking the danger out. It's locking you in with it.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it completely subverts that evolutionary comfort. I mean, the
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: threat isn't some stranger breaking a window. It's camouflaged as
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: everyday domestic life. Yeah. Sitting on your pouch. It's, you know,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: making coffee in the kitchen.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Which brings us to the mission for this deep dive.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: We are looking at this incredibly chilling documentary produced by
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the YouTube channel Beyond Evil. Mm-hmm. And it chronicles a
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: case from the summer of 2025 in Taos County, New Mexico.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: The disappearance and the murder of a 23-year-old Army veteran
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: named Matthew McLaughlin.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Such a heavy case.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: It is. And what makes this source material so compelling and, frankly,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: just so disturbing is that it isn't a hoot in it. Right.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Not at all. It's a deep psychological look into the
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: anatomy of a betrayal. It's the mechanics of a homicide
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: investigation and really a masterclass in how Detectives mentally dismantle
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: a killer who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: What's fascinating here is how dense the psychology is. It
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: really forces a reevaluation of how we understand human bonds. Specifically,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: you know, the concept of military brotherhood and just how
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: easily those bonds can be manipulated.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack this because the timeline of the initial
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: disappearance sets the stage for everything.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: It's as late July. Matthew is seen walking down a
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: local highway.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, nothing. He just drops off the map.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Five days go by. He doesn't show up for his job.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: But the alarm isn't raised by the people living with him.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: It's a concerned co-worker who finally calls the police.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And in the context of a missing persons investigation, that
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: delayed reporting, or in this case, I mean, the complete
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: absence of reporting from the immediate household, that is a
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: massive behavioral indicator. Right.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Because Matthew doesn't live alone. He shares a house with
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: two other guys. Rainer Joiner, who was 23, and David Dagrow,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: who was 22. And the crucial detail here is that
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: these aren't just guys who found each other on Craigslist
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: or a bulletin board. They share a military background.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Right. They are Army veterans.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You would think the ingrained culture of checking on
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: your battle buddy would kick in.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: You'd think so, yeah.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yet, when the police finally knock on the door to
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: ask about Matthew, Joiner and Dagrow claim they have no
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: idea where he is.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And somehow it just never occurred to them to alert anyone.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: It's Matthew's mother and the local cops who actually have
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: to launch the search and put up the GoFundMe.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Well, the absence of action speaks volumes there. Like when
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: you live with someone, their absence creates a physical void
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: in the daily routine.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Ignoring that void actually requires effort.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: But what's even more telling is how they attempt to
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: fill that void once the police initiate contact.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they immediately go on the offensive against Matthew's character.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: They start painting this picture for the cops of a
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: guy who is totally untrustworthy, claiming he's, you know, heavily
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: into drugs, constantly bringing random shady strangers around the house.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: It's all a setup.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: It's like they were trying to write a completely different
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: script for the investigation to follow. Yeah. You know, casting
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Matthew as the architect of his own demise.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: It is a classic misdirection tactic. I mean, they are
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: attempting to weaponize the police's own statistical biases.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Because statistically, individuals involved in high-risk lifestyles like heavy drug
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: use or associating with transient populations, they are more likely
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: to go missing or be victims of foul play.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: So Joyner and Digro are trying to hand the police
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: this neat, wrapped-up explanation that directs the investigative lens outward,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: away from the house.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: But wait, help me understand the police response here. Because
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: reading through the source material, this drove me crazy.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're going to say.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: If you are a detective, right, and you are sitting
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: across from two military veterans who didn't bother to report
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: their roommate missing for almost a week.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: And the second you ask them about it, they launch
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: into what feels like a highly rehearsed smear campaign. Yeah.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, how do you not just slap the cuffs
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: on them right then and there?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: It's frustrating. Yeah.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: It seems so blindingly obvious they are involved.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, it is obvious. I mean, the detectives knew they
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: were lying almost immediately.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: They did.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The source notes the investigators actually spent over two
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: months conducting multiple interviews, and they recognized the rehearsed nature
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: of those statements. Right. But this highlights the really frustrating,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: meticulous mechanics of transitioning a missing persons case into a
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: homicide case. Because suspicion, even overwhelming suspicion, is not probable cause.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Because they don't have a body.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Exactly. When someone is missing, you don't have a crime scene. Yeah.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: You don't have a weapon. You technically don't even have
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: confirmation that a crime has been committed. I mean, people
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: are legally allowed to just walk away from their lives.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: So before the police can kick down doors and make arrests,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: they have to do something called building a baseline.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: And what does that actually entail in practice? Because two
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: months feels like an absolute eternity when you think someone
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: has been murdered.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: It does. But building a baseline means exhaustively proving a negative.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: The detectives have to document Matthew's pattern of life.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: They are pulling bank records to show he hasn't spent
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: a dime. They are pulling phone pings to show his
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: device is dead.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Checking social media. Contacting the VA. Basically running down every
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: possible avenue to prove that Matthew didn't just move to
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Colorado on a whim. Wow. And simultaneously, they have to
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: systematically investigate and eliminate every single false lead. that Joyner
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: and DeGro are feeding them about these supposed shady strangers.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Oh man, so they have to chase ghosts?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Exactly. You have to legally dismantle the lie before you
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: can prove the murder.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So they're basically forced to play along. They're letting these
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: two roommates just talk and talk, gathering the rope that
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Joyner and DeGro are so willingly handing over.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: It's a strategic waiting game. Every time Joyner and DeGro
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: added a detail to their story, They created another data
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: point the police could disprove. I see. The very rehearsed
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: nature of their narrative, which they thought was their armor,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: actually became the blueprint the detectives used to dismantle their
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: illusion of normalcy.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Man, that simmering tension over those two months, it makes
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: the eventual climax so much more intense.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely. Because when the police finally cross that threshold
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: of probable cause, the dynamic shifts instantly. We move to mid-August,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: and the police aren't knocking politely anymore. They are coming
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: in force.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: And this is where the tactical realities of the suspects
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: dictate the police response.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: The investigators know they are dealing with suspects who possess
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: formal military training.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Which is terrifying. I mean, the audio from the documentary
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: during this raid is incredibly tense.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: The police arrive at the property and they are preparing
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: for a bloodbath. They bring in an armored vehicle. You
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: can hear officers shouting commands, deliberately clearing the property. declaring
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: dead space as they move. Right. They're treating this house
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: like a hostile compound in a war zone.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: And that term, dead space, is critical context here.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: What does that mean exactly?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Well, in close quarters tactical operations, dead space refers to
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: any area an officer cannot establish visual dominance over. So
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: a blind corner, the space behind a shed, maybe a
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: depressed ditch. It's an area where a threat could be
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: concealed and launch an ambush. The fact that the tactical
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: team is actively calling out dead space means they fully
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: expected a fortified, violently defended position.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: And right as this high-stakes sweep is happening, a utility
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: van pulls up to the property.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Talk about timing. Right.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And the officers immediately stop two men inside, and they
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: can clearly see the men are heavily armed.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: So every tactical condition for a deadly shootout is met
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: in that split second.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: But the shootout never happens. It's this massive, jarring anticlimax. Yeah.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: The van stops. Joyner and DeGros step out, and they
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: immediately raise their hands. They surrender without firing a single shot.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: It's wild. And looking at this, it almost doesn't compute.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: You have a military-trained killer who has successfully hidden a
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: body who has lied to detectives' faces for weeks.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: And when the moment of truth arrives, he just folds instantly. Like,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: why on earth does a military-trained killer just fold instantly
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: without a fight and ask for a deal? Is this
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: arrogance or is it cowardice?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: It is a fascinating pivot, really, and it is deeply
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: rooted in how Joyner's a specific brand of narcissism operates.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: It's all about perceived control. When Joyner looks at that
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: armored vehicle and the tactical team, he calculates the odds.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: But he doesn't surrender out of remorse or fear in
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: the traditional sense.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: His brain transitions instantly from combatant to negotiator. He genuinely
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: believes he is still the smartest person in this equation.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: He thinks, you know, I can manage this. I can
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: pivot from being a hunted suspect to a cooperative asset,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: and I can talk my way into a lighter sentence.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: He starts playing the system the second the cuffs go on,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: because any lingering hope that Matthew might be found alive
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: is destroyed almost instantly. Yeah. They admit Matthew is dead
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and his body has been disposed of, but Joyner takes
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: it a step further. He actually volunteers to sit at
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: the front seat of the police cruiser.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Right. Just totally brazen. Yeah.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: He offers to guide the officers directly to the remains,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: and he is sitting there chatting through the partition with
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the cops, explicitly asking them to make sure his honesty
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: and his cooperation are conveyed to the district attorney.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Which perfectly validates that theory of control. I mean, listen
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to the transactional nature of his behavior. He isn't offering
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: a confession to cleanse his conscience. He is attempting to
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: broker a deal. He is trading a body he has
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: already destroyed for leniency. Operating under this delusion that the
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: criminal justice system is just another tactical puzzle he can outsmart.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: To really understand the audacity of him sitting in that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: cruiser demanding credit for being helpful, we have to look
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: at what he's actually leading them to.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: We have to rewind the clock to the day Matthew
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: disappeared and look at the anatomy of this betrayal. Because
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: the way this trap was set up is chilling.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: The contrast between the mundane domestic details of the setup
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: and the cold reality of the murder is just deeply unsettling.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Here's where it gets really interesting, or in this case, horrifying.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: It's the evening of July 25th. Matthew is actually returning
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: from a trip to Colorado where he was getting his
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: VA affairs in order.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Right, taking care of his life.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Exactly. He buys groceries. He gets dropped off at a
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: house in Taos County. And David DeGro is there to
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: meet him. DeGro grabs a grocery cart. And the two
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: of them start walking toward their house.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: But Degro isn't just helping his buddy carry the milk. No.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Degro is acting as an active spotter and bait.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: It reminds me of the concept of a Judas goat.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: An animal that is specifically trained to blend in with
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: a herd and calmly lead them straight onto the kill
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: floor of a slaughterhouse, knowing its own life is safe.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Degro acted like a Judas goat. He used the most
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: mundane domestic act imaginable, carrying groceries, To walk a brother
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: in arms straight into a firing squad.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: The betrayal there is profound. I mean, DeGro was given
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: explicit instructions by Joyner. He was told to walk on
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: a specific side of the road and to be excessively loud.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Because Joyner needed an auditory and visual marker in the
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: fading light to confirm the target was in the kill zone.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Because Joyner is waiting in the bushes at an upcoming intersection.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: And he is heavily armed. Yeah. He has a Springfield
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Saint AR-15 style rifle and a Beretta sidearm. As Matthew
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: and DeGro approach, Joyner opens fire from concealment with the rifle,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: hitting Matthew in the right abdomen.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And a shot to the abdomen is devastating, but it
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: is rarely immediately fatal. It drops the target, but leaves
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: them conscious.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: And Matthew is entirely confused. He actually yells out, I
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: got shot. He has no idea the threat is coming
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: from his own roommate. Then Joyner steps out of the bushes,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: but he doesn't finish it with a rifle.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: No.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: He switches weapons. He pulls his Beretta. walks right up
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: to Matthew and shoots him directly in the jaw.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Jesus. Yeah.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Matthew drops to the floor, choking on his own blood,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: and then Joyner stands over him and delivers an execution
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: shot to the temple.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: If you analyze the mechanics of that attack, it tells
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: a story of two very different mindsets colliding.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: How do you mean?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Initially, you have the military precision, right? Establishing a firing lane,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: utilizing a spotter, firing from concealment. But look at the
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: weapon shift. Right.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Dropping the rifle. Exactly. Exactly.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Dropping a rifle to close the distance with a handgun,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: specifically targeting the face and jaw before the final shot,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: that abandons tactics for sheer emotional brutality.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Wow, man.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: It's a deeply personal, it's an intimate, visceral rage. He
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: didn't just want to eliminate Matthew, he wanted to dominate him.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: And he wanted Matthew to know exactly who was doing it.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: That blend of tactical planning and hot-blooded cruelty, it bleeds
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: directly into the aftermath.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Because the murder is horrifying. But the logistics of the cover-up,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: you know, the weeks-long effort to erase Matthew from existence,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: that's where the psychology gets even darker.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Well, murder is an abstract concept until a killer is
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: suddenly faced with 180 pounds of dead weight.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: The physical reality of disposing of a human body is
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: where the fantasy of being a cold-blooded operator usually shatters.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: And you see that play out in Timeline. Immediately after
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: the execution, Joyner drags Matthew's body about 40 meters off
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the road, dumps it near a tree... And just leaves
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: him there. And then the very next morning, Joyner wakes
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: up and goes to his normal job as if nothing happened.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: The level of psychological compartmentalization required to clock into a
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: shift after executing your roommate is just, it's hard for
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: a normal brain to process.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: It's insane. So he works his shift and then he
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: runs errands. He goes to a harbor freight and buys
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: some buckets.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Then he decides he needs different tools. So he goes
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: to a treasure supply and buys 33-gallon trash bags. and
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: a split axe. Wow. He drives back out to that tree.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: He uses the axe to sever Matthew's head and hands.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: He bags them, puts them in the bucket, puts the
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: bucket in his work van, and drives four to five
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: miles up a drainage ditch to dump them.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And from an investigative standpoint, removing the head and hands
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: is a textbook forensic countermeasure. The goal is to eliminate
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: the primary methods of rapid identification, which are dental records
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: and fingerprints.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: But here's where the timeline gets bizarre. He dumps the
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: head and hands. And then he just stops.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: He leaves the rest of the torso and the limbs
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: out there by the tree, just exposed to the elements.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: He doesn't go back for almost a week. Right.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: By the time he returns, the body has bloated. Wildlife
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: has scavenged it. He then proceeds to hack off the
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: lower limbs, physically tearing the femur from the hip socket.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I know, it's brutal. He bags up the rest of
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: the remains and dumps them like six or seven miles
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: further up the ditch. By the way, the police noted
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: he spelled finally as F-I-N-E-L. in his written confession, which
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: is just a dark little detail. But it makes me
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: question the narrative that Joyner tries to sell later. Joyner
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: thinks he's a criminal mastermind, but what kind of mastermind
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: leaves a body exposed to wildlife for a week before
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: finishing the job? It sounds like utter chaos masked as strategy.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I agree. And you're touching on the massive cognitive dissonance
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: within Joyner himself. He envisions himself as this flawless apex predator.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: But the physical reality of dismembering a human being with
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a split axe is exhausting, repulsive, and traumatizing, even for
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: a psychopath.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: The week-long delay proves he was entirely unprepared for the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: gruesome physical toll of his own actions. He procrastinated because
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the reality of what he had to do broke through
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: his fantasy. And he didn't do it alone. Which adds
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: just another layer of sickness to this.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: He forces his roommate, DeGro, to participate. DeGro admits to
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: the police that Joyner forced him to physically hold the
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: heavy-duty trash bags open While Joyner placed the severed body
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: parts inside.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Just horrific.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And Joyner explicitly threatened to kill DeGro if he didn't help.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: But he also told him why he wanted him to
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: hold the bags. He wanted DeGro's DNA on the plastic.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: It's a horrific but highly effective psychological manipulation tactic. Joyner
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: is manufacturing a forced accomplice. By forcing DeGro to physically
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: handle the bags, he is binding him to the crime
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: through undeniable physical evidence and shared trauma.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Like an insurance policy. Exactly.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: If the bags are ever found and swabbed, DeGro's DNA
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: is front and center. It ensures DeGro's silence by rooting
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: it in his own legal jeopardy and fear.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: That massive gap between Joyner's inflated ego and the messy,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: chaotic reality of the crimes. That becomes the exact wedge
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the detectives use when they finally get him in the
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: interrogation room.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Watching how they break this guy is fascinating.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: This raises an important question about interrogation, because especially with
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: a suspect of this profile, it is very rarely about
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: pounding your fist on the table and demanding the truth.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: It's about constructing a psychological maze where the suspect believes
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: confessing is their own brilliant strategy.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Joyner walks into that room and he knows exactly what's
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: at stake. He understands the legal system well enough to
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: know that a premeditated murder charge means a harsher sentence,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: a mandatory life sentence in New Mexico.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: So he tries to thread the needle. He claims he
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: just snapped. He tells the detectives that Matthew was bringing
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: drugs into the house, acting disrespectfully, and he just lost
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: his temper in the spur of the moment.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: He's aiming for a lesser charge, like manslaughter.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: But his ego won't let him just play the role
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: of the remorseful roommate who made a mistake.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: No, he can't help himself. In the very next breath,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: he's bragging about how he has no normal human empathy,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: how his father taught him to constantly think of ways
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: to kill people. He wants the detectives to fear him,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: to see him as a lethal weapon, but simultaneously believe
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: this specific murder was an accident.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: It's a contradiction.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Completely. But while he's spinning this web, The detectives have
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: an ace up their sleeve because in another room, DeGro
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: is spilling everything. DeGro confesses that the ambush was planned
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: for weeks, that they rehearsed the route. And he reveals
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: that the murder had nothing to do with house rules.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Of course not.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Joyner was furious because Matthew was calling him out on
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: his lies, specifically confronting Joyner about claiming he hit women.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: and it just made him feel disrespected.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: The detectives now possess the truth, but revealing it too
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: early would just make Joyner defensive. Right. They realize they're
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: dealing with a deeply narcissistic personality who is trying to
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: outsmart them legally, so they change the rules of the game.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: This is the part that blew my mind. They look
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: at this guy who is literally brainwashed his roommate and
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: they start complimenting him. They pivot from interrogators to admirers.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: They tell Joyner they were impressed by his plan. They
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: talk about how well thought out the logistics were, how
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: organized the disposal was, and they ask him, almost with reference,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: where he came up with such a sophisticated strategy.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: It's brilliant.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: But wait. Is flattering a killer's ego a standard interrogation technique?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: It feels incredibly risky. Like, what if he just clams
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: up and says, yeah, I am smart and I want
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: a lawyer.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: It sounds incredibly counterintuitive and it is risky, but it
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: is a very specific technique rooted in behavioral psychology. Okay.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: When you are interviewing a subject who exhibits dark triad traits,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: so narcissism, lack of empathy, Machiavellianism, appealing to their conscience
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: is a waste of breath. Right. They don't feel guilt.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: They only feel pride. The detectives recognize that Joyner's desire
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: to be perceived as a tactical genius was actually stronger
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: than his impulse for self-preservation.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: By feeding his vanity, they bypass his defensive loops. They
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: trade moral outrage for tactical flattery.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: They just keep feeding him until he's bloated on his
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: own ego. And once he's comfortably basking in their praise,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: they spring the trap.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: They drop DeGro's confession on the table, proving the timeline.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: And Joyner is totally cornered.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Because he's just spent an hour accepting their compliments on
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: his brilliant plan. He suddenly tries to backtrack into this
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: bizarre double negative argument.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Right. Trying to have it both ways. Yeah.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: He starts stammering, trying to claim, well, yes, I am
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: a genius who always plans murders, but I didn't plan
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: this specific murder. He literally trips over his own bragging.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: That is the genius of the flattery trap. I mean,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: by praising the plan. the detectives manipulated him into taking
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: intellectual ownership of the murder. Once he eagerly claimed ownership
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: of how smart the act was, he could no longer
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: deny the timeline required to execute it. They weaponized his
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: own pride to secure the undeniable evidence of premeditation.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Which brings us to the core rot of this entire tragedy.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: When you strip away the tactical gear, the interrogation games,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: and the horrifying logistics, you are left with the true
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: festering motive behind this betrayal.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: And it has nothing to do with drugs or house rules.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Right. It comes down to resentment and desertion.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: This is where the story shifts from a procedural breakdown
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: of a crime into a deeply tragic character study.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Because the image Joyner and DeGro tried to project, you know,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: these upstanding veterans dealing with a rogue roommate was a
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: complete fabrication. Yeah. The reality of that household was that
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: both Joyner and DeGro had active warrants out for their arrest.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: They had both deserted their posts in the military.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: They were bound together by shared failure. The source notes
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: that both men had experienced the trauma of losing their fathers,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: and they used that shared grief, combined with their desertion,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to build this incredibly toxic, insular echo chamber. Joyner essentially
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: claimed Diggro as a younger brother, becoming fiercely territorial over him.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: They constructed a warped reality where they were the victims,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: misunderstood by the world, and the military they abandoned.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: And into that toxic, defensive bubble walks Matthew. And Matthew
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: is the exact opposite of everything they are.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Literally everything.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: He didn't desert. He upheld his oath. He retired honorably.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: He maintained a steady job. He was actively getting his
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: life together through the VA. Right. And most tragically, he
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: still fiercely believed in the creed of no man left behind.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: He moved into that house with his fellow veterans to
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: try and build a life and maybe help them build theirs.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And that is the true catalyst for his murder. Dorner
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: claimed he was offended by disrespect. Yeah. But the psychological
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: reality is that Matthew was a living, breathing mirror reflecting
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: every single one of Joyner and DeGro's failures.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Every morning Matthew woke up and went to a stable job.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Every time his honorable discharge was mentioned, it was a
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: searing reminder of their own desertion and inadequacy.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: That makes total sense.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: They didn't ambush him because he was a bad roommate.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: They ambushed him out of a deep-seated, violent resentment of
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: his integrity. His success was intolerable to their egos.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: The investigation uncovered a detail that perfectly encapsulates that resentment.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Detectives found a crucifix, believed to belong to Matthew, inside
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: the drum of a washing machine that Joyner and DeGrow
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: were using in the yard as a makeshift fire pit.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: They were burning his belongings. They were literally trying to
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: incinerate his faith, his memory, and everything good that he represented.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: It is a devastatingly clear symbol of their desire to
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: not just kill him, but to completely eradicate the moral
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: standard he held them to.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: So what does this all mean? The legal system ultimately
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: delivers its verdict. Both men are charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: and tampering with evidence, with Joyner picking up additional charges
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: for the assault and battery.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: And because the detectives were so skilled in proving that premeditation,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: they face a mandatory life sentence in the state of
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: New Mexico. They will be sitting in a cell for
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: at least 30 years before they can even ask a
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: parole board for a hearing.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: It is a robust legal conclusion, but, you know, it
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: offers very little moral comfort.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Because the takeaway here is incredibly heavy. Matthew lived by
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that sacred oath. No man left behind. But he applied
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: it to the wrong men. Yeah. He tried to pull
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: his roommates up out of their own dysfunction. And instead,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: they dragged him into the dirt.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: The tragic irony is profound. The exact attributes that made
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Matthew an honorable soldier and a steadfast friend, you know,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: his loyalty, his stability, his desire to help his fellow veterans. Yeah.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Those were the very things that painted a target on
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: his back. His light exposed the depths of their darkness,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: and they made the choice to extinguish the light rather
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: than do the hard work of fixing themselves.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: The investigative work by the Taos County deputies is truly commendable.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: They navigated the frustrating bureaucracy of a missing persons case,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: executed a high-risk takedown without losing an officer, and psychologically
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: outmaneuvered a deeply dangerous narcissist to bring some semblance of
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: truth to Matthew's mother.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: The procedural execution was flawless. But it leaves us grappling
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: with the human element that no police tactic can prevent.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Which brings us right back to that front door we
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: talked about at the very beginning.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Matthew was killed in a trap, set by the very
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: people sharing his roof, under the guise of an everyday
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: routine like carrying groceries.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: It's terrifying.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: And it forces us to ask a deeply unsettling question.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: In a world where we spend so much energy being
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: hypervigilant about external threats, you know, installing cameras and throwing
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: the deadbolt, How well do we truly know the psychological
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: baselines of the people we invite into our most private sanctuaries?