Latest / Echoes & Edges / Rerelease: Spiritual Disillusionment w/ Kate Petersen & Stephanie Rose

Transcript

Rerelease: Spiritual Disillusionment w/ Kate Petersen & Stephanie Rose · Echoes & Edges

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Hi, welcome back to Echoes and Edges, the Broken and
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Beautiful podcast. The Broken and Beautiful is a collective of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: healers on the hunt for beauty, meaning, and transformation. I'm Patria,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: your host for Echoes and Edges and the owner of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the Broken and Beautiful, and I'm so glad you're here. Today,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: we're going to do a deep dive or at the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: beginning of a deep dive into a series on spiritual
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: harm and heartache. And Stephanie and Kate are here with
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: me today, and I am really excited for this episode.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: And the reason that we're doing this, at least in part,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: is because all three of us have had some form
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: of heartache or harm from church systems, from people within
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: church systems, or we've been harmed by people close to
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: us who have sort of gotten away with things that
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: weren't okay with us ultimately. And we have all had to,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: in some way, uniquely restructure our own lives in order
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: to find our way forward with peace in this world.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: And there's been good and hard things that have come
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: from that. But our purpose in this series on spiritual
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: harm and heartache is really to highlight the fallout And
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: sometimes the collateral damage, meaning it's not really well seen
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes, the cost of these cruel and sometimes
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: just painful, sometimes not even intentional, but sometimes intentional fallouts
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: from church systems or from people within the church systems.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: And so we're just here to have a conversation about that.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: So welcome, Kate and Stephanie. And Stephanie, would you jump
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: in and tell us a little bit about yourself? Other
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: than you're both members of the Broken and Beautiful Collective,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: remote collective. Delighted about that. Yeah.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having us. Really happy to be here.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: My name is Stephanie, and I am the mom of
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: four that range from 22 to 15 years. And I'm
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: a coach and I've been doing the work in story
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: work for over five years. And yeah, I'm a single
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: mom now.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Can you just briefly, if it feels doable to say
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: what you mean by the work of story work, what
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: does that mean to you?
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: What it means to me is offering and receiving care.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: to my stories that I didn't even realize were so
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: important and why I was showing up in my adult
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: space the way I was. And getting the care around
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: my stories in the form of story work with a
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: coach has allowed so much healing, which then has allowed
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: so much growth And so much coming into my own
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: self and feeling like I'm much more active participant of
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: my life.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: What a thing. I was thinking about self-leadership. You've really
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: learned how to lead yourself from yourself. That's such a
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: good summary. Thank you for sharing some of that. And again,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: so happy to have you back. Yeah. To the listeners.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: You'll recognize Stephanie from a couple of episodes ago. So Kate, welcome.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Tell us some about yourself.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: I am Kate and I am a trauma certified coach.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: I work with story work and I also work with
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: neurosomatic tools, which is a way of bringing the body's
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: wisdom into the healing process. I am a mom. I
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: have four boys who keep me very busy outside of
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: my work and going through a lot of transitions currently
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: in my life, which has been really highlighting a lot
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: of areas that I am still continuing to heal. I
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: see this process as an ongoing thing I'll be doing
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: for my whole life, but I now feel as if
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: I know myself probably for the first time in my
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: entire life through the work that I've done In the
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: healing realm.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Beautiful.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, and just for both of you, I think
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: you already know how I feel about you and your work,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: but just I'm so honored to have gotten to witness
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: some of that with you and also to have you
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: here today. Really knowing from an inside perspective the cost
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: that it's been for both of you to take up
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: for yourself, to say what you need, to start saying
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: what you want, and to change the system. So I
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: would really call you both legacy changers. And between you,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: you have eight children. That's a lot of impact in
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: the world. Five boys between the two of you. Yeah,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: five boys. Five boys between the two of you. And
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: three girls. So, Stephanie, you've got three girls and one boy,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and Kate, you've got four boys. So that's just a
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: lot of impact in the world, and I just don't
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: want to gloss over that. I mean, this is a
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: big reason why we do what we do when it's
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: hard as moms, right?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you for saying that, because definitely our children, I think,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: fuel the work.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes us keep going when it feels impossible, right?
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Yes. Mm-hmm.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: We see their faces in front of us and we
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: have hope for them to be able to lead themselves
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: and to not become part of a, you know, more
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: collateral damage of a system or a way of being
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: that's not good for any of us. So thank you.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: I had this idea of not letting them become cogs
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: in a destructive system.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Amen. No more cogs, no more cogs. I mean, if
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: people want, want to be cogs, that's their business, but
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: we're going to give our kids the best chance that
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: we can. Right.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: They have choices.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: They have choices. That's right. They have choices. They can decide.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: So my coach has been working with me lately because,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: you know, I believe in coaching. So I have a
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: coach too. And my coach has been working with me
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: on the difference between choice and decision. And I'm still
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: learning a little bit about that. So to be continued
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: as I learn more.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: So let's dive into our content for today. And, you know,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: I think some more, I just want to say a
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: little bit more about this, that spiritual harm doesn't always
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: begin with harm.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: It doesn't always begin with abuse or something that's easy
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: to see or tangible or an obvious betrayal. It oftentimes
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: starts with a feeling of not being okay, kind of
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: like a low-grade fever, but you don't know why. And
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: so this is kind of where we want to start
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: this three-part series and crescendo up to the toxic side
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: of things, the abusive side of things. But We can't
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: really start there and give a full picture of what
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the experience is like, right? So sometimes it starts more
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: with that low-grade fever type. Something's not right, but I
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: don't know what it is. And we're, for whatever reason,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: we're in survival mode. I think of your two stories
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and my story and the early days of having kids
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: are just so saturated with that. surviving, you know, and
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: just doing life, changing diaper, affording diapers, affording food, you know,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: let alone cooking it and making sure everybody has what
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: they need and nightly baths and all the things. And
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: so it's these, these low grade things are just under
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: the surface and can really keep us from feeling okay.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: And it, and oftentimes it starts with a longing, like
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: I'm longing for something more, but I don't, I don't.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: like there's something wrong with me, right? So that's usually
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: the first indicator, at least in my experience. So I'm
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: going to pause right there and see if you guys
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: have any thoughts about that.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking in terms of just the very early days.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: So I'm a very young child having been born basically
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: into a religious community. And I remember even thinking as
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: a young child, how I had, I had people figured out,
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: like there was not a series of depth or a
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: sense of depth to any of the individuals that I
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: was in contact with regularly. Every thing seemed very superficial.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: And to me that felt empty. It felt like I
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: wasn't seeing a whole person in many cases across all
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: of these relationships that I had.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: How did you experience that as a child? Like, you know,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: cause that, that's like an adult, that's story work. You've
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: done some story work to put that together. Right. So what, what,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: how does a kid experience that? What is that like?
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: It almost was a sense of feeling smarter than adults
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: in the room.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Which is unsettling as a child because these bigger humans
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: have more power, should feel stronger and more wise and
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: put together. And as a child, it was very confusing
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: to me thinking, do I know more than these adults?
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Do I have something figured out that they don't? It
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: gave us a sense of fear also.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Certainly lack of containment. It sounds like, yes, no, there's
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: not somebody bigger than you. There's not somebody smarter than you.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: There's not, there's not somebody to figure out problems beyond
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: what I can figure out. And so that left you,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: it sounds like, and as you know, because you're of
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: your Enneagram type, you maybe didn't feel the fear, but
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: that's the word that comes up in my mind is
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: that that didn't feel safe as you're describing that.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. and I wouldn't have been able to describe fear
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: at all, but it was definitely confusion as to why
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: a child felt smarter. I will say in kids' words,
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: why am I smarter than a grownup?
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: That's so well said. I have heard other, where I'm
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: not trying to avoid saying you're Enneagram type, but we
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: haven't really talked about whether, okay. That's the story I
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: hear from eights a lot is that there's a sense
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: of like, what is, what is, this is BS. You know, that's,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: that's a, from early as an Enneagram nine, I had
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: none of that. None, not even a single whiff of
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: something is wrong with the people around me. And it
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: was all up to me. Any thoughts for you, Stephanie?
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you want to say your Enneagram
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: type because you're working on that a little bit right now,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: aren't you?
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, I feel pretty confident in that
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: I am an Enneagram 4. It makes a lot of
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: pieces fit together. My early childhood, I was also born
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: straight into a religious family. I don't ever remember not
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: being in church. But my earliest feelings of being in
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: my religious community and home is just gripped with fear.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Because there was so much conversation about end times and hell,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: but way more about end times and all that going
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: to happen. And so I just remember being panicked on
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: a regular basis. Am I on the right side? Am
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I going to go to heaven? Or did I do
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: it wrong? And so, you know, just constantly trying to
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: pray whatever prayer with whomever, but not feeling any peace
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: on the inside after saying those prayers. So just constantly
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: worried that I'm not getting it right.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: That's so terrifying. I'll share just a little bit too.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: My background is different, but we were very focused on
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: end times as well. Daniel and Revelation were kind of
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: picked apart. And then certain... scripture from Daniel and Revelation
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: were used to then create an entire end times eschatology
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: or theology of end times. And it's different than like
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: pre-tribulational rapture fear, but it was its own fear. And
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: there are some kids that come from my background who
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: would go to camp, for instance, and they would play
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: end times. That was part of the, that was part
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: of the camp experience was they would play end times.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: And if you wanted extra points, you could actually eat
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: live bugs to prove that you could survive the end times.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Should they come? So it was almost like masochism. Like
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: we were just taught masochism. Like, you know, just exactly hardcore.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: How hardcore, how tough is, And by the way, this
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: is an interesting aside too. And speaking of harm, because
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: these are the waters, right? These are just the waters
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: that we're born and grow up in. We don't know
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: any different. But for us, it was all the Sunday keepers,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: all the people that kept Sunday or went to church
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: on Sunday that would chase after us. So we were
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: the chosen of all the chosen. Yes.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: So this is a little bit of a, you know,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: like it's different than the two of you, but it's
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: also the same, right? It creates a problem that can't
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: be solved. And to some degree or another, we were
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: all aware of that. I wasn't consciously aware of that
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: in that way. I had other problems that are, I
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: understand now are linked, but at the time I didn't
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: understand that.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: And, and what I hear you saying is you are,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: you were growing up in the system that was doing
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: it right, which I identify with. Also, there was portions of,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: you know, we were the only ones doing it the
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: right way. Everyone else was deceived in some way. They
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: didn't have the full truth. They might be a type
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: of a Christian or a believer, but they did not
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: have the full truth. And that feels very familiar. And
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: I know like my background is very different from yours.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: But that sense of being in the right was a
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: very common theme.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Stephanie. I see you thinking.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I just wanted to bring in a little context
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: from my story. And that is that from birth to 11,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: I was raised in a charismatic church. And so it
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: was all the, you know, super emotional worship experience. Some
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: people getting words from the Lord, Holy Spirit telling people
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: what to do and all that. And then my parents
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: do a complete swing to the other side. And then
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: we went Reformed Presbyterian from the time that I was
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: 11 on. And that was almost no Holy Spirit activity. Right,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: because that's.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: A cessationist view, right? So you went from charismatic to cessationist?
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I actually don't know that word.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: So cessationist means that the gifts of the Spirit are
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: no longer active post-Christ.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes. Wow.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, not in the same.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: Okay. Yes.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: And there was just, everything was like how we showed
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: up and expressed ourselves our religious faith was, everything was
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: completely different from the day we switched over, which brought
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of confusion to me. But the way, when
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: we switched over, it was very much, we are doing
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: it the right way. Like Kate is saying that we
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: are the special ones who have the special knowledge and
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: we are keeping things much different. stricter and holier than
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: everybody else who are still Christians, but not as good
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: a Christians as us.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. And then the grace movement that
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: kind of came in, in my experience, because I've been
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: through so many different versions, too, of Christianity, then grace
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: kind of came in and said, well, everybody else has
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: been cherry picking the law and deciding what's right. And
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: so now, now the kind of community church or the,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: you know, more free flowing evolution of, at least the
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: way that I experienced it was, we don't need to
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: get it right, you know, but the implication was, this
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: is the right way now. And so there's always this
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: right thing. And, As people who really have integrity, like
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: there is a desire. Now, I don't know about integrity
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: in terms of integrated, but in terms of wanting to
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: be honorable, wanting to be good, wanting to follow the rules. Like,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, but I was not,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I had rebellious ways, I suppose, a little bit, but
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: not much. I mean, I really wasn't much of a rebel.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: You guys either?
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: No. No. Not even as my, if anyone's familiar with Enneagram,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: the eight is the challenger. They typically tend towards rebelling,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: but there was so much spiritual weight that was taught
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: to me, I didn't even think that I could.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and that is, I'm so glad you said
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: that because that's such a highlight of the difference between
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: males and females in these systems, oftentimes, it like you
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: didn't have the luxury. And I often use that phrase
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: when I'm trying to explain my experiences, I didn't have
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: the luxury to rebel. That wasn't in my cards. Whether
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: it was explicitly true or not, my body had a
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: sense that I would not be safe, welcome, loved. I
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be long. I wouldn't have anything that I needed
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: if I did not be a good girl. And so
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: that's just kind of baked in, you know? So people
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: that are more rebellious, kids that are more rebellious by nature,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: like what, you know, you had to do something with
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: that energy. And that's a, that's a lot of what
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: we do in story work is how do we shift
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: that energy out from its natural outflow and what, and
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: how do we start giving it room? Let's set up
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: the context. And if there's other things that you want
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: to say and bring in, please do like, well, let's
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: just make this a really good conversation where we can
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: tie these things in that we've just talked about too. But,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: you know, so here's the context for all three of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: us in different ways is we want to be good,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: but something's not right. And we've had to exile or
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: cut off parts of ourselves, significant parts of ourselves to
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: In order to be good, to have, you know, to
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: have a sense of community, to kind of get what
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: we need, really, essentially. So what then would you say
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: you believed or, and this is a strong way to
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: say this, but what did you understand? Let's ask it
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: this way. What did you understand spiritual community would give you?
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: What did we understand? And where did that idea come from?
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: So this is what's expected of you. What did you
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: understand you would get from that?
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the big one, of course, is eternal security.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Which is obviously huge. But certainly as a child, you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: that seemed beyond grasping. That was super big. But so community,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: like security in having a community and being loved and
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: knowing how to do it the right way.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: There's the spiritual category and there's the psychological category, right?
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And from a spiritual perspective, it's eternal. It's eternal salvation.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Like I will get to go to heaven one day
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: and be happy forever, right? And from a psychological perspective,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: it's I get to stay with my parents, though. Yes.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think you're hitting one of our core needs,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: our core need for attachment.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: Secure attachment. And we were not explicitly, but definitely implicitly
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: under the radar all the time, communicated with that you
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: will get a sense of belonging if you You abide
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: by the rules of these communities. You check the boxes.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: You show up like you're told. And then that belonging,
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: because we're all trying to be right and good, that
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: belonging will lead to what Stephanie was saying with the
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: eternal security.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: What else was the sort of unspoken transaction? You know,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: you be good. You do these things. You know, for me,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: it was keep Sabbath, the Friday nights and Saturday nights Sabbath. um,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: the Jewish way, then X, you know, or, or Y what,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: what was it for you? You know, what else besides
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: eternal salvation? Cause I didn't get that. That wasn't part
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: of my.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: Right. Right. Yours wouldn't be eternal security. No, there was
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: a sense of pride in doing it the right way.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: So that was almost a reward in and of itself.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: And I will say as a woman showing up in
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: these spaces, um, being a specific type of woman. So
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: specifically in the tradition I was raised in, women were
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: not allowed to speak. We had to cover our heads
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: in the worship services. Some people covered their heads all
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: the time. So they took it to an even another
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: level and both could be explained as being right and good.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: So there was confusion there as well. And there was
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: a lot of, um, there was a very distinct difference
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: between men and women and roles were very clearly differentiated
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: and defined.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Um, for both.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Can you like, give us an example if you, if
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: you have one of that.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Um, Yeah.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: So after a certain age of children in Sunday school,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: a woman could no longer teach them. So a woman
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: could teach younger boys and children. But because once they
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: got to about, you know, 12 or 13, then a
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: man would have to take over teaching that age of
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: kids because it was mixed Sunday school groups. It was
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: girls and boys together. So there was no opportunity for
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: a woman to share wisdom once children had reached the
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: age of 12 or 13.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm just sort of shocked, even though I'm not,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: but it is, it's shocking. You know, I mean, it's
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: just shocking that the age 12, 13, I remember hearing
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: it called the age of accountability, right? So that's where supposedly,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I think it had to do with Jesus saying no
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to his mother, right? Or leaving and going to the
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: temple and talking to the Pharisees.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Able to make adult choices. And so now the boy
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: has now surpassed the grown woman.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: The woman.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for that.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Could I just ask a question about the head covering?
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Could you give a greater explanation on why a head
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: covering might have been worn?
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Yes. So it goes back to the specific, I can't
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: remember the book of the Bible, but the specific verse
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: about women should worship with their heads covered. It's a
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: very specific phrase. And knowing what I know now about
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: biblical culture, I understand it completely differently. But then it
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: was a rule for women. What I've come to understand
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: and know now is that in the culture, the only
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: women who did not have their heads covered at that
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: time were prostitutes um sex workers and they had to
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: have their hair uncovered to indicate their status and so
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: when they were showing up to worship their people were
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: coming against the women um and we were trying to
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: make equality happen for all of the people in the
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: worship settings in biblical times and so they encouraged all
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: women regardless of their cultural status when they came to worship,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: everyone to cover their heads together to show equality between
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: the classes.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: So it was a way, scripturally, biblically, in that era
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: where Jesus was ushering in a new way of being,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: this idea was actually elevating all women instead of making
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: women smaller.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. And it was very culturally dependent. We do
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: not cover our heads typically in our cultures in the
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: West these days.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: In fact, we do a lot with our hair. Don't we?
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: So much.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: I can't identify so much with the feeling of pride locally.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: But I can identify with the feeling of belonging. I
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: just never didn't feel like I belonged. I felt like
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I belonged. I'll say that in a positive sense, because
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I really was told what to do and I did it,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: you know, and I didn't stray. I mean, even I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: was a teenager in eighth grade when Top Gun came out. So,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: you know, Tom Cruise and the the first time around.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: And he was a little bit known, but that of
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: course is what put him on the map. And I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: remember just feeling this sense of, yeah, it's not pride,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: but it's something of like, I wanted to join in
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: with the other kids who were like losing their minds
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: over that, but I couldn't, I could not let myself
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: experience the childishness of that. I couldn't be a kid.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: You know, so I remember having a feeling of like cynicism.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: This is ridiculous, you know, or kind of irritation at
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: the other kids, you know, and just being very dignified.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: And that, I would say, is kind of how that
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: played out for me.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: So I am just thinking about how my parents, like
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: we had the church program. piece of it, but then
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: also my parents joining the IBLP and Bill Gothard movement,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: that brought a lot of regulation and what right and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: wrong look like into my life.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: And just to clarify, by regulation, you mean control?
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not neuro regulation. not neurobiologically regulation.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: So around the time that I was eight is when
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: my parents joined this. So my parents were never normal people.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: We were never normal, but I seemed a little bit
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: more like everybody else until the time I was eight.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: And then because of our doing it the right way,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: religious way like I could no longer wear pants I
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: had to wear long skirts and ideally it would be
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: like navy khaki or jean skirts would be what would
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: be specific and and modest tops because you did not
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: want your body to be alluring and catching other men's
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: eyes and And, you know, preferably your hair is long.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Like I had to ask my dad permission every time
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: I wanted to get a haircut. My dad told me
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: at eight that if I did not follow the rules
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: that he was setting for me for what I wore,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I would have to buy my own clothes. At eight
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: years old? Yes. And I knew I didn't have a
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: job or any access to money. Money. So I had
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: to make a rather adult decision in that moment of, okay,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I don't like this at all because now I'm going
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: to be really weird with everyone else. But there's no
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: way I can clothe myself and supply whatever else responsible
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: things that not following the rules would cause. So I
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: had to be like, okay. And I did rebel once.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Like what's funny is me. Not the eight. I did
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: more rebelling than Kate.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's very four-like, actually, Stephanie.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, really?
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did wear the above-the-knee jean skirt that
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: a friend had given me, and I put it on
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: and wore it to church before my parents could see
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: what I had on, and then it was absolutely never again.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: So that was... That was it. Oh, wow.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Two things. First of all, the reason fours rebel is
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: to be authentic. The reason eights rebel is to challenge
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: the system. So it is different reasons, right? But secondly,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing both of you talk a lot about your
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: own self, your own being, your physical being and how
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: it was controlled. And so just quickly tell us, and
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: this is an aside, we're way off topic here. It's
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: so important though, but- what what did the guys have
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: to do what was the different like what what changed
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: for the men or the boys nothing yeah it's all
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: about controlling the women yes and and specifically controlling your
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: passionate desires or like like what what was what was
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: being controlled um I mean, like, now looking back, what
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: would you say?
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, I would say femininity is dangerous in its authentic,
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: powerful way. That would be my, you know, decades past
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: looking back at this. And yeah, the women were required
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: to be very generic, very small and serf.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: But I would also add to that that there is
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: a certain element of we needed to have a certain look.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Like it's not just plain and small. It's also sweet
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: and very virgin appearance. Like we needed to have rosy
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: cheeks and sparkling eyes and wavy hair, you know, curled hair.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And so there's this very much keep sweet, be pretty
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and innocent and plain, all mixed into one.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: How did you have to participate in your own disillusionment, essentially?
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Because at some point, you started saying no to this system, right?
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: You started saying, oh. Maybe it wasn't initially a no,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: like we talked about initially today. It was a longing.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: It was a sense of something's not right. It was exhaustion.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: So especially at that juncture, how did you survive? What
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: did you do then when you started feeling something was
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: off or wrong? What happened then?
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: For me, the biggest piece, I mean, when our survival
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: is threatened, we go into the four Fs or the
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: five Fs, wherever you want to look at them. And
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: I think for women, especially in high controlling religions, the
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: fawn is your only response. You're not allowed to freeze
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: and stop. You are not allowed to fight for sure.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: You can't flop. Many women do. They reach a point
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: where they have to just, they cannot go on and
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: it's the flop. But the fawn is, The appeasement, we
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: call it people pleasing. It becomes a wired response to
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: all of this threat that's around us all the time.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: We don't quite know when we're getting it wrong. And
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: so we people please, we acquiesce, we stay silent when
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: we want to speak. We do more, we serve more.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: When I learned about the FON response as a trauma response,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: my whole life made sense. I realized how I survived,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: why I survived, and why I was so good at it.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I got really, really good at it. I think there's,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: I 100% agree with everything Kate just said. That is
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: absolutely true. I think I learned how to gaslight myself hardcore.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: It gave me some control, a feeling of some sort
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: of control, and Yeah, I just remember getting feeling angry
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: and upset about how something would go and then leave
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: the situation because I was so wrong. And I couldn't
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: say what I wanted to say. And, and, and then
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: just mentally think, how do I shift? How do I
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: get kill what I believe and get over here? Yeah.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's, it is gaslighting cells. I totally hear
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: what you're saying, but you just said the word kill myself.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Like I had to kill off something of myself, which is,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: it is technically, I totally see that. And it's just
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: so diabolic because of the reasons like, and it's all unconscious, right?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: So we're talking about, these are all things we've learned
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: to put words to that were just flowing within our
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: systems and we were reacting and responding and reacting and responding.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: And so what I hear you saying is that participation
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: involved fawning, which is a trauma response that has to
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: do with appeasing the aggressor. If you think about, if
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: we think about animals when in a fawn, they're on
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: their back cowering, right? Their dogs put legs up because
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: they They want to show that they're submissive. So fawning
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: is another way to say submissive, right? So we had
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: to be submissive. We had to not be stronger, not
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: be smarter. I mean, that was what we were, you
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: aren't right. That's what you, you couldn't be. So you
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: had to, you had to tell, you had to lie
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: to yourself. You had to gaslight yourself into being in
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: the wrong that that's right. So if you're feeling angry,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: at what's happening to you, it's because you're in the wrong.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: And then that brings up the guilt.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Okay. Tell us more. Talk about that more.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: The constant feeling like I am wrong. I'm doing something wrong.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: I'm being something wrong. Somebody is mad. It must be
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: my fault. There's that responsibility feeling. for everyone else and
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: their emotions and their wellbeing above my own. And it is,
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: there's still this with all of the work, with all
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: of the hard things that I've done and walked through, my,
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: still my primary response to a tough situation is what
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: did I do wrong? I did something wrong.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I'm in trouble.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: It's like the little kid version.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I'm in trouble. And with that goes the racing thoughts,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: like I'm in trouble and you're playing out any way
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: that you possibly could have messed something up before you've
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: even had a conversation with somebody.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And I just want to say, I want to capture
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: what you guys are saying right here. So there's the,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: there's the, I'm in trouble, the anxiety that comes with
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: being in trouble. And then there's the response, there's the
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: reaction to that, right? So then you're going to try
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: to get out of trouble. You're going to fix it.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: So it's up to you to fix it. And, and
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: this is not like, this is not a unique experience
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: only to women always. However, this is far more prevalent
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: among women than it is among men, especially in these systems.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Men don't have this concept within their brain that it's
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: up to them because it's not, it's You can't have
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: it be up to you. You're not smart enough to
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: impact growing boys.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: Sounds like an impossible bind.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Doesn't it, though?
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: So what are the losses? What are those losses that
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: we're still trying to name? Talk to us about that.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Try to begin talking to us about that because that
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I felt the overwhelming and I know that's a big question.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: I mean I'll just I mean myself at its core
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: you lose who you are you lose who you were
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: created to be who you are meant to show up
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: in the world as and Um, I, when I said,
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: I finally know who I am, I'm finally showing up
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: as me. I mean it. There were so many parts
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: of me strewn through my history that having to walk
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: back and find those pieces that I had to lay
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: down or Stephanie said, kill off. I mean, it's taken.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: it's taken six years to get enough to feel like
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: a real person again.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Enough of you back home.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: And it just feels like utter self abandonment.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: And to lean into any of my own desires, opinions
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: was so bad. Uh, that, Yeah. It was, I was,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: it was dangerous to be me. Yeah. And I'm going
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: to lose, you know, I know that if I show
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: up as me, even though I did not have this
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: in such conscious language, but if I show up as me,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I lose all community. I lose the little bit of
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: love I feel like I have. I lose provision for
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: food and clothing. I lose knowing who I am because
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: this community tells you, you're a woman, you look this way,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: you show up this way, and you do these things.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: You bear children, you raise the children, and you serve
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: and honor and obey your husband and the church.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: And part of that Part of what I hear you
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: really splitting, like threading the needle with right there, Stephanie,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: is that it's not that you didn't want to be
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: a mom and a wife, right? But it's the difference
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: between what you want and what's mandated for you and
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: the burden that you have to bear in order to
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: be good, like to be sweet, to... Like you'd have
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: no voice. You have to leave yourself to do this thing.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: And self-abandonment, you know, Kate, you said something at the
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: retreat that has really stuck with me this week, which
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like is such a good point to bring
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: up right here is that self-abandonment is covert self-harm. That
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: is exactly right. And so we were taught to covertly self-harm.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: As long as we were being sweet, we could be
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: doing what we wanted on the inside to ourselves. In fact,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: we were expected to, right?
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: And it's how when we talk about abuse, often survivors
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: of abusive relationships or abusive families will say, I wish
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: I had just been hit because... the, if you've, if
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: you've experienced both forms of abuse, um, the psychological or
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: mental or emotional wounds that were, were performed on us,
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: but then we had to almost, um, take and begin
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: and continue to do on ourselves. It's that, that sense
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: of harm, that sense of self-harm, it really, um, there
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: are no scars, but our souls are bruised.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And there's something wrong with us that now we are
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: doing to ourselves. So there is really actually something wrong
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: with us. And that is a terrible bind. That is
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: a terrible bind. In fact, it's like the third bind,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: you know, like there's a bind to the bind to
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: the bind and maybe more than that. But I want
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: to just like, because we're moving into the toxicity and
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: abuse that comes from harmful systems, let's sum up this
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: first part one. We'll do an ending and then we'll
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: dive in to the part two. So as we sum up,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: you know, you can hear listeners that we're moving toward
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: the actual toxic and abusive elements of these harmful systems
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and people within the systems and ways that we had
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: to agree with the harm. Like this is what we're
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: trying to undo, right? Is to get back to ourselves
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: and to be free from that, to have the binds broken.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Kate and Stephanie, is there anything you'd want to add
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: as we just summarize this part one before we move
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: into part two?
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: As you were kind of wrapping up with those words,
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: I think it's important to realize that you cannot experience
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: the heartache until you have named the harm. I think
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: only in the naming and the realizing of what reality
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: you have experienced can the grief come in a way
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: that brings wholeness and healing. There is obviously grief within
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: the system, when you are in it and stuck. But
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: the heartache is much more poignant as you name the
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: harm that you've experienced.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I just want to add here that grief,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: because we use these words so much in our line
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: of work and in the story work world and the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Allender world, Grief, what we're talking about here is not
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: like sadness or tears necessarily, because we all have, everybody
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: has sadness and tears. Even when you are abandoning yourself,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you're still sad sometimes and you still have grief sometimes.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: What we're talking about right here is an exponential outpouring.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: The image I have is like a debridement of a
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: deep heart wound that where all the you know, like
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: it's been sealed over with a little scab. And when
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: you start taking it, the scab off, there's all this
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: pus that's, that comes out and bleeds and aches and
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: it's messy and it stinks and it's old and it's
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: been there forever. And, and to really like smell the
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: smell of grief, what has been stuck for so long
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: to me, that is more a realistic picture of what
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: we're talking about is letting these ways that we've had
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: to agree, that we've had to compromise things that are
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: not ways that we want to be in order to
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: survive in a system that's not good for us or anybody.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: And that's why we're here today. So I just wanted
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: to add that grief is not simply being sad. That's
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: not what we're talking about here.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, you feel it. to your bones and
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: all the way through from your head down to your
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: feet when you know what it has actually cost you.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: But like Kate was saying, till the harm is named,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: till I can find who I actually am and not
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: who I've had to be, I can't even access that
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: grief of the loss And the betrayal of myself for
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: all these years.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: Well said. Until we can get to the grief, we
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: can't get to the person. If this episode resonates with you,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: follow or subscribe to Echoes and Edges on your favorite
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: podcast platform. Leave a five-star review and share with a
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: friend who might need a gentle invitation to self-understanding. Echoes
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and Edges is produced and edited by Stephen R. Sanders.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Music promoted by Envato. Echoes and Edges is part of
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: the Vivid Livid Podcast Network, where bruises speak and healing
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: finds its voice.