Latest / Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between / When your aging immigrant parents need you— what happens next? 부모님 케어-힘든 건 나만이 아니었다 1.5세의 진짜 이야기

Transcript

When your aging immigrant parents need you— what happens next? 부모님 케어-힘든 건 나만이 아니었다 1.5세의 진짜 이야기 · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

0:00
Heard people say the sandwich generation raising your kids and
0:03
then having to assume the caregiving for our aging parents
0:07
and parents just immigrants in this country.
0:09
And I think their goal was to to have money to send us to school
0:12
and they didn't think of what am I going to do when I get old.
0:15
You know, I didn't think that was sort of on their radar to
0:17
certain age. Our parents are independent, but
0:19
when they need more help. My name is Ruby Rukiza and I'm a
0:29
licensed clinical social worker, was born in Korea and when I was
0:33
three we immigrated to Argentina and I came to the US when I was
0:38
10 years old. And Korean is super super basic.
0:41
How do you identify yourself? Like are you Korean American?
0:45
Korean Argentina American? I think just probably Korean
0:49
American podcast is named 1.5 Generation and anything that
0:54
resonates with me with a little twist of something else.
0:57
I don't know how I would percentage why I split it up,
1:00
but I feel like those are all parts of me.
1:02
Yeah, you have a really interesting mix of cultures,
1:05
right, Because your husband's Mexican.
1:07
Yeah. We have three children.
1:09
So it's like, interesting. I always wonder, like, how, how
1:12
do they identify themselves, right.
1:14
And I think part of them is they will say, you know, well, you
1:17
know, my mom's Korean, my dad's Mexican, and, you know, they're
1:19
biracial. But I think a lot of times,
1:21
like, you know, and everybody who tries to be polite, but is
1:24
this big question. So like, for example, my middle
1:26
one, Isabel, will be like, OK, I know what you're thinking.
1:30
So she'll just write out, say, OK, yes, I'm not Filipino.
1:33
I think, you know, that makes an Asian and Mexican, you know,
1:36
looks a lot like in a Filipino. Abby looks sometimes a little
1:39
bit Indian. Abraham says that Isaac looks
1:42
the most Asian. But, you know, when they're
1:44
young kids, like, I'm like, I can't tell.
1:46
I think they embrace both cultures.
1:48
I mean, they're American, but I think think they're very much
1:51
connected to their Mexican side of their culture.
1:53
And I think they're also very connected to to my family, their
1:56
own person within all those, you know, cultures.
1:59
And I think they know that it's just kind of that's their
2:01
background. But I don't quite know if like,
2:04
you know, what they sort of like lean a little more towards.
2:07
So I didn't know that you moved to palliative care.
2:10
Wow, that sounds really intense. And everybody be like, Oh my
2:14
gosh, why are you going there? It's so sad.
2:16
You know, it's like pallet, it means like all the kids that die
2:18
in the hospital. But I think there's such unique
2:22
beauty of just young kids and their families, of how they hold
2:26
their life, of what's important to them.
2:28
And sometimes as they're like older adolescent, I think that's
2:31
even. Just more profound because they
2:34
are so aware of what's happening.
2:36
The same time there's such a love of life and just
2:39
appreciation. And those parents, even within
2:42
their grief, are able to really embrace everything.
2:45
And it's just like this crazy roller coaster ride.
2:48
But being present and sort of being a witness to all of that,
2:51
it's not easy. And I don't know what I would
2:53
do. So like, all I can do is just,
2:55
you know, support and be there to just walk with them.
2:58
Oh my gosh, I wouldn't know what to do, you know, Or passing
3:02
middle age, right? And our children and our
3:05
children are older. They're all adults but still
3:09
need our support, have parents who are elderly getting into,
3:15
you know, health issues with no retirement plans.
3:19
So that means financially we have to somewhat be responsible
3:24
for that care and time and also emotional.
3:30
So many, many of us from 40s to whatever 60s and beyond, we are
3:36
responsible for our parents in one way or another, right?
3:40
I feel like it's more so than like, let's say the mainstream
3:47
Americans because for them, most of them have retirement plans.
3:51
Our parents don't. Navigating all that while
3:55
raising our own family can be very burdensome, don't you
4:01
think? Yeah, for sure.
4:03
You know, just as you're describing, it's just like, Oh
4:05
my gosh, it's overwhelming, right.
4:07
I think I remember hearing, heard people say the sandwich
4:11
generation because you're sort of like kind of raising your
4:14
kids and then having to assume the caregiving for our aging
4:18
parents. And my parents were too busy,
4:20
you know, working just immigrants in this country.
4:22
And I think their goal was to like business or work and to
4:25
have money to send us to school. And so for us that there was
4:29
number savings plan they didn't think of like, what am I going
4:31
to do when I get old? You know, I don't think that was
4:33
sort of on their radar, you know, to certain age.
4:35
Our parents are independent, but when they need more help is that
4:38
do you have them live with you if that's what they want or do
4:43
you have them, you know, go to like a skilled nursing facility
4:46
or an assisted living? I think there's so many
4:48
questions and that's like a hard thing.
4:50
Like it's you and your family, but it's you and your, you know,
4:53
partner. Are we both OK?
4:55
And are we both agreeing to take care of whatever set of parents,
4:59
right? Case My mom, you know, passed
5:01
away three years ago and they were very independent.
5:03
You know, my dad and her, you know, my mom lived in their own
5:06
like a part senior apartment. Now he's in his own, like
5:10
assisted living. I don't know if he would have
5:12
wanted to live with one of us because he's like a fairly
5:14
independent person. And I kind of struggled too
5:17
because even in the Mexican culture, it's like you take care
5:20
of your elderly, you have a multi generational home.
5:23
I think for me that was a little bit of a struggle.
5:25
But then the other realistic part is like, I'm still working,
5:28
you know, I didn't have the physical space, you know, for my
5:30
dad's. I think there's some a lot of
5:33
that guilt of would mom be OK with that?
5:35
Would mom be disappointed that, you know, we didn't have dad
5:38
live with one of us? But I think at the end of it,
5:41
when I asked myself those questions, it's like, I think
5:44
she would be OK. Like knowing my dad, like the
5:46
best thing is for him to have a separate space.
5:50
Can you share how you and your brother and your sister process
5:55
that like that? The doll process of yeah, let's
5:58
have that at a assistant care at this point, like.
6:01
I, I've had this conversation not just with my own brother and
6:05
sister, but I think just like friends and coworkers, like how
6:08
do you navigate all this, Right? Because, and I think I, what I
6:11
hear a lot of them, it's like, it does bring fights.
6:13
And so it just really brings up a lot of your own family
6:16
dynamics of like, how are you gonna like sort of like share
6:19
that caregiving, right? I think it's never even, I think
6:23
it's always sort of falls into like whoever is a child that's
6:26
sort of the parent is most connected to in a sense, you
6:30
know, because I can tell my dad will call me for certain things.
6:33
You know, he'll call my sister, you know, for certain things and
6:36
then he'll call my brother. It's a different relationship
6:39
between daughters and sons. You know, my dad and I perhaps
6:43
have a unique relationship that they really helped me a lot when
6:46
our kids were younger. But I think whichever way you
6:49
spin it, it's sort of this like there's a times when I myself,
6:53
I'm like a little resentful because I'm like dad, I'm like,
6:56
I'm not the only one, like go ask someone else.
6:59
Think also, I think he like guilt trips each of us into
7:02
different things, but. That's interesting.
7:06
Yeah, because you're the youngest, too.
7:08
Yeah, the Monday I. Know yeah, I'm the magnet, but
7:13
you know, it's like, you know, but then because I work in
7:16
healthcare like anything is like help dad with this or can you
7:18
take him to his appointments you know, and even like visiting my
7:22
sister and I are probably like the closest proximity of where
7:26
he lives. My brother lives a little bit
7:28
further. So even the further you are then
7:30
the visits you know, like don't have perhaps you are also busy
7:34
with your own family or other things in your life.
7:36
So it's it's hard. I don't know, maybe this might
7:39
not be like very obvious in your family per SE, but do you think
7:45
there's difference between how our parents view daughters
7:49
versus sons like responsibility wise, like expectation wise?
7:55
Perhaps growing up, it's like, you know, maybe because we like
7:58
moved to so many places, I don't think I ever felt like there and
8:01
treat him a little bit in a different special way, somewhat,
8:04
you know, in the same manner. So, but I think now that I'm
8:08
older and, and I see this in so many, like not just in my
8:12
family, in the Mexican culture, like, you know, like in my
8:15
husband, you know, in Abraham's family, where I think the
8:18
daughters like, you know, you get married, but you stay close.
8:21
And I, I think my mom would tell me that it's like, oh, you know,
8:23
sons is like you, they get married and that's it, you know,
8:26
but the, the girls will always like stay close to, to the
8:29
family or to the parents and really help.
8:32
And I think that is very true in a sense, you know, we do take,
8:35
you know, sort of that caregiver role.
8:37
And like my sister and I, when I look at how we sort of have a
8:40
relationship with our dad, I think there's like, kind of like
8:43
dad calls and like, then we talk.
8:44
I'm like, can you dad And one of us will go right.
8:46
And my dad calls my, you know, brother.
8:48
He's the last one kind of to call in a sense, because he's
8:51
the last one that's gonna respond or will call me.
8:54
Then if I didn't answer, call my sister.
8:55
Like he goes down the line. His thing is like, like, I need
8:59
your help. Yeah.
9:00
And I'm like, I hear, but you're gonna have to wait a little bit
9:04
because I can't do it right now. Right now.
9:07
Sounds like you have your good boundaries around it, huh?
9:12
Yeah, but I crossed my own boundaries tons of times, so.
9:17
Don't we all? So I have a question, because
9:20
you're a social worker and many of our parents use Medicare,
9:24
right? Is that right?
9:25
Medicare, Yes. Do you think it's sufficient
9:28
enough? I mean like is it doable with
9:31
just with Medicare? You know, I think it's just like
9:33
one of those things that's like, unfortunately in this country,
9:36
it's sort of like either super rich and have access to
9:38
everything and don't need to depend on anything, you know,
9:41
from the government, or you are like, your income is limited so
9:45
that you qualify for all these services, right?
9:47
And then there's this middle like where then like you're kind
9:50
of screwed in a sense because like you can't access like
9:53
certain things, but then it's not like you've got tons of
9:55
money to to, you know, be able to take care of, you know, your
9:57
medical costs. So I think generally, like if
10:01
you have Medicare, you know, then you have also people that,
10:04
you know, that you buy out in a part A Part B.
10:07
And so with those two together, I think it does cover most of
10:10
the, you know, care. But you know, that immigrant
10:13
generation of our parents were like, did they have the, you
10:17
know, ability to like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to have to buy
10:19
insurance, You know, when I retired or, you know, because of
10:21
this, I don't think they ever, you know, even had sort of that
10:25
foresight to say, like, gosh, I really have to plan because now
10:29
people live longer. What if, you know, I get sick?
10:32
It's not the best, but I think it's good enough where it does
10:35
take care of their basic gain of medical care.
10:38
What is planning? I think it's like.
10:39
I know we should, we should know this for ourselves too, right?
10:42
But I think it's like part of it is like, you know, would like my
10:46
dad, I know like he doesn't have an income.
10:48
So like he's able to like, you know, you know, access certain
10:51
programs, right? But I think on top of the
10:53
Medicare or Medicaid, Medicare where you buy, you know, like
10:57
part of your Social Security pay a certain amount, a dual kind of
11:01
insurance, right? So you have, you know, or some
11:04
people may have Medicare and some private insurance.
11:07
They might have, you know, just 22 streams of funding.
11:10
Yeah. Oh, I see.
11:11
I mean, medical care is very expensive.
11:14
Sometimes I feel like my parents have Medicare, right?
11:17
Medicare. I don't know if they're getting
11:19
the best medical treatment. What do you think?
11:22
Am I like, biased? No, I mean, I think it's like
11:26
just like our parents, you know, like don't speak the language
11:28
and they're probably going to gravitate towards like doctors,
11:31
you know, smaller offices. They, you know, have to go to a
11:34
sub specialist. They're not Korean.
11:36
But you know, hopefully in all these big medical centers, you
11:39
know, there's such thing as interpreting, right?
11:41
Like you need to like understand your health needs and you need
11:45
to be able to communicate with your doctors.
11:47
Even if your doctor is non Korean, they should be able to
11:50
dial up somebody, you know, your, you know, your family
11:53
member who's going to do all the, you know, interpreting on
11:55
your behalf, which is like, no, that's not the family's role.
11:59
It is sort of the healthcare system to be able to provide
12:02
language and the patient is going to be able to really their
12:06
needs met. But I think maybe that's the
12:09
limiting factor. I mean, Medicare has a big pool
12:12
of like doctors and providers. Gosh, if you know you needed
12:16
like a oncologist or a specialist, like sometimes you
12:19
know Medicare is like a good source of insurance because it
12:22
does give you access to all the big centers.
12:25
So if your parents needed care and they decide to go to a non
12:28
Korean doctor or non Asian speaking doctor, they could
12:31
still request a interpreter they're supposed to provide.
12:34
Any in a medical facility like they need to be able to provide
12:38
whatever language or whether it's American Sign Language.
12:41
So you know that you do have that right to say God, I know
12:44
what you're saying, doctor, please dial up an iPad
12:46
interpreter. I'm, if you request for like a
12:48
special meeting or something, they will, you know, vendor that
12:51
out. And so I think, you know, it's
12:55
just always like people don't know.
12:57
And I think it's in healthcare especially, everybody's so busy.
13:01
The doctors don't wanna, you know, and they, if they hear
13:03
like you speak a little English and that's good enough.
13:05
Like they will not, you know, take that extra step, right?
13:08
Because then you got to dial somebody like your appointment
13:11
is like twice as long with us back and forth interpreting.
13:15
But then it just does a disservice to that person
13:19
because they're probably not gonna ask the questions that
13:21
they wanted to ask. They're not understanding
13:23
everything. And so it's just it just comes
13:27
down to just a missed opportunity and just not great
13:31
care. That makes me think even if you
13:36
are there with second generation child who barely speak Korean,
13:41
it would be a good idea to dial them up or request the service
13:45
because they would be able to tell you exactly what the doctor
13:48
is saying with the medical terms and what that means.
13:51
Because your second generation child say Oh my, you're OK or
13:56
you're not OK. And that's the extent, right?
13:59
So this is a good service to know and request, even if you're
14:02
there with your mom or dad. You know, I've had to do that
14:05
one like my mom when she was going through her cancer
14:07
treatment, I remember going to some of her visits because I was
14:10
just, I wanted to hear what the doctors were saying.
14:12
And there was a point where like, you know, when her cancer
14:14
came back and then they're talking about like, you know,
14:17
surgery and like she didn't want to do chemo.
14:19
And I'm like, that's just like way too much.
14:21
And I'm like, I'm just here as her daughter, like I don't have
14:24
the bandwidth to be the interpreter because a my Korean
14:28
sucks. But you know, you shouldn't be
14:29
putting, you know, I don't want to be placed in that in a
14:31
position. I want to just be there to
14:33
support it. And here and I I don't want to
14:36
be the interpreter in that case. They did dial up someone because
14:39
I insisted. I'm like, you know, if you're
14:41
having this conversation, I said, please could we get a
14:43
Korean interpreter? And I've done I've done that for
14:47
my dad too. And he's been in the hospital
14:48
when we had to talk about like, I remember there's one time he
14:51
got admitted and he had to like, they're, you know, my sister was
14:55
there with them in the emergency room.
14:57
And I saw something in his chart that said, you know, that he was
15:00
DNR do not resuscitate. And I'm like, did they have a
15:03
conversation or like, how did they even, you know, like arrive
15:06
at Dan? And so I asked him, I said, I
15:08
don't think like, you had a conversation with my dad
15:11
directly in his language. So I said, can you please, you
15:15
know, this is something very big.
15:16
I said, I am not comfortable, like I should not be having to
15:20
interpret or, you know, have this conversation with my dad,
15:22
but please send a staff member or someone who has the language
15:26
skills to do it. And so I think the chaplain came
15:30
and actually like had that conversation with my dad.
15:32
But it was one of those things for like, you know, a, it's
15:37
like, I don't feel comfortable like asking like, hey, dad,
15:40
would you want all these things? Nor is it, you know, my, my job
15:44
or duty, you know, as a family member.
15:46
So I think sometimes, you know, when we do come across that and
15:49
you know, sometimes our parents are going to those visits alone,
15:52
but comparing them to say, you know what mom or dad, you know,
15:55
please ask, you know, your doctor, whoever is going to talk
15:59
to you to, to please get an interpreter on the line.
16:02
That is so huge for for the parents and for even for the
16:08
second generation children like us to lift off that burden.
16:13
You're there as their child to support not really like making
16:17
these decisions or like cut because there's a lot in
16:20
interpretation, right? Yeah, that lot could be lost
16:24
luck. A lot could be misinterpreted.
16:27
So that's, that's really good to know that even if you're there,
16:31
ask for the service. My dad is like typical things
16:34
like can you call the bank, you know, or, you know, like all
16:38
these random calls you have to make, right?
16:39
For, for your parents who are like, it's like, yeah, there's
16:43
like anywhere you call, you know, like it's a world where
16:46
they can dial up an interpreter if you're calling your banking
16:49
or whoever you're calling. So it shouldn't be such a
16:52
barrier anymore. That's really helpful point.
16:55
You work in palliative care and you deal with these families
17:00
that's not your own, right? I mean, these are your patients
17:04
and you're able to walk away from them at the end of the day
17:07
and go home to your own family. Disconnect hopefully.
17:12
But what is your own family like?
17:15
How do you disconnect? How do you set boundaries?
17:18
Like you say you cross your own boundaries all the time.
17:20
How do you do that? How do you manage?
17:23
I haven't found a great way, you know, I don't want to be like
17:26
totally like, Oh my gosh, this is my boundary.
17:28
Dad, you cannot call me Monday through Friday because I'm at
17:31
work. Please call me on the weekend or
17:33
in my day of visit with you Sunday or Saturday, right within
17:36
those boundaries. And it will look different for
17:38
each of us, right? With a boundary keeping, it's
17:41
like your own sense of like guilt, at least for me, right?
17:43
Like am I going to be feel guilty because I'm not picking
17:47
up that call or telling them, you know, my dad, to wait
17:50
sometimes, you know, that's OK. Like if it's something urgent,
17:53
of course, like I would, you know, go and go, you know, go
17:56
help and do whatever I needed to.
17:57
But if it's something that needs to wait, I, you know, I have
18:00
said, hey, dad, you know, I'm gonna call tomorrow or let me
18:03
try after work. So I think those are the small
18:06
boundaries that I may draw for myself.
18:08
And also asking my brother and sister in a sense.
18:11
Or sometimes like, it's kind of those things where like you hope
18:14
that the other person naturally like, kind of wants to like do
18:17
things along with you. But sometimes I wonder if we
18:20
have to be explicit about it and say, hey, no, you know what?
18:23
I went to see dad this weekend, so somebody else go next week.
18:26
Maybe we rotate. Like if it's not that's not
18:29
happening and then in all falls on you, then perhaps it's like
18:31
where you like do have that honest talk with your siblings
18:34
and be like, Hey, this is just too much for me or for one
18:37
person like. But I'm thinking like, I mean,
18:40
what is good enough for caring for your elderly parents?
18:44
You know, I think sort of like for your own, like, you know,
18:47
conscience and for your own sort of like well-being like
18:50
sometimes as much as you're dreading the 10 hour drive and
18:53
you're like, Oh my gosh, it's me again.
18:55
Is that gonna give you some Peace of Mind?
18:57
And when something big or, you know, after they're gone, like,
19:00
hey, I did my best. Like I was there, I was
19:03
available, I was present. You don't say like, gosh, I wish
19:06
I had visited them more or I wish I had gone.
19:08
That time when it's your own parent and you want to be there,
19:12
but like, like you said, what is too much?
19:14
Are you able to hold them in the moment and say, you know, I hear
19:18
you. Like it sounds like you're
19:19
having a really hard time, but can I come next weekend?
19:22
Or I think it's such a personal thing, like kind of crazy sort
19:26
of reversal of roles. Like I think that's the biggest
19:29
thing. Like, you know, you're like,
19:30
gosh, I'm like you're, I'm like your child.
19:32
But now I'm like, like your parent, like, you know, we're
19:34
like switching places because now like, you are needing my
19:38
care, you know? Yeah, there's.
19:40
That's such a big thing, the reverse role.
19:43
You know, my mom was visiting me for about 3 weeks, almost three
19:46
weeks. She was diagnosed with
19:48
Parkinson's about 15 years ago. Because see, she's getting worse
19:52
and worse every time I see her. So this time around, she was not
19:56
able to do anything for me. Not that I expected it, but you
20:01
know what I mean? Like, you know, she couldn't.
20:02
I had to like, I mean everything, right?
20:05
And which was fine, but I just wondered because to be honest, I
20:11
was happy to have my. Mom here and spend time with her
20:14
and do stuff for her. But at the same time, I feel
20:18
little resentment. And I wondered what that was,
20:24
you know, kind of, you know, introspecting.
20:28
And I figured out, I think, I think I don't remember receiving
20:33
that sort of like tender care from my mom when I was growing
20:39
up. I mean, of course, I mean, you
20:42
know, we all know they sacrifice all that.
20:45
I'm not saying that I'm not discounting anything about that,
20:47
but I'm just saying emotionally, I don't remember receiving the
20:52
tender care. And then now I am the like the
20:58
parent caretaker for her. I feel like I need to give her
21:02
that tender care and I feel like she expects it as well.
21:08
So I I couldn't put my finger on it while I was doing it.
21:14
But after she left, oh This is why.
21:16
Because I don't remember receiving the tender care from
21:20
my immigrant parents. But now that I'm in a different
21:24
role, it's almost like I need to give them the tender loving care
21:31
that I don't know about. Do you know what I mean?
21:33
Like do I make sense? Yeah, no, no, it makes total
21:36
sense because one side of you is like, Oh my gosh, like how am I
21:39
supposed to know how to give this love back when I didn't
21:42
necessarily like receive it from you, right.
21:44
But then there's this part of you like, but I need to take
21:47
care of you. And that is like, you know,
21:48
maybe are kind of growing and maturing.
21:50
That's justifying a sense like, you know, like they just like
21:54
didn't know how to do that. They're just too busy.
21:56
Perhaps it's their own upbringing of like that's how
22:00
they were raised by their parents and they didn't know how
22:02
to sort of model that. Why am I sort of feeling a
22:05
little bit of almost resentment, like anger, Like why do I have
22:08
to take care of, you know, in this, in this manner, You know,
22:11
not saying like you don't want to do it, but I think you were
22:14
able to kind of sit with it for a while.
22:15
You're like, I think it's because like your little like
22:18
child or self was like longing for that back then, right.
22:21
And like perhaps like you didn't and, and it's sort of this like,
22:24
how do I do it differently? Or do you do it the same way and
22:27
be like, well, you know, I, I don't know what that looks like
22:29
because you never showed me. So am I going to treat you in
22:32
the same manner of like, like how I was raised?
22:34
I mean, I think it just brings lots of emotions, stuff from our
22:38
own child. You know, people are always
22:39
like, you know, there's no, you know, like childhood trauma,
22:42
like trauma, like it's like that doesn't exist in like the Asian
22:45
culture. They're like just, you know,
22:47
suck it up and, you know, like go on with your life, right?
22:50
But I think it's such a like mainstream, like American white
22:53
culture, kind of like everybody has trauma, you know.
22:56
And so I think just culturally, even how we view that, but I
23:01
think so much of it has to be perhaps it's just like in our
23:03
own upbringing, right? Of like, and I think it makes me
23:07
think of like, like, what is my own like sort of, you know,
23:11
older adulthood when I need care.
23:13
What is that going to look like? You know, what are my kids going
23:15
to do? You know, at least with my
23:17
sister, you know, we've talked a lot about, gosh, you know, we
23:19
need to really be in a different place and our parents are in our
23:23
retirement just not to like lean on our kids.
23:25
And and they're things that you try and do so that if you do
23:29
need somebody to take care of you like you have that ability,
23:32
you know, to have somebody else come in and do that caregiving
23:35
and not necessarily have it to default to your kids.
23:38
That's that's yeah, you're right now that we're in this space
23:42
right where we're taking of our children still, but but elderly
23:46
care is like. Real for us, it's.
23:49
Like everyday the same with my husband too.
23:52
We talk about like, you know, making the plans and how I want
23:56
to be taken care of and make sure that there's enough funds
24:00
that they that they could use on behalf of me.
24:05
Also like not leaving that medical care decision on them.
24:10
Like I want to make my own decision.
24:12
I have to, I have a plan like don't do this and that right?
24:15
So that I, I'm, I'm thinking I'm going to take away that burden
24:19
from my family. But who knows right at that
24:22
moment, who knows? But now, still, that's what
24:27
we've learned from watching our parents, no?
24:31
What a gift that we can give to our kids.
24:33
But there's something called 5 wishes and it was it just kind
24:36
of walks you through it. Do I want like, you know, like
24:38
life sustaining treatment or like if the doctors say like
24:41
Dick, I'm not doing well, like would I want to still be
24:44
connected to all this stuff or would I not or all those things?
24:47
Then you can pick someone as like you're like health proxy or
24:51
circuit decision maker. And sometimes I'm like, then do
24:54
I pick like, you know, like Abraham or mice, or do I pick
24:57
like my one child who I know it's gonna really stick to my to
25:00
my wish and know that that's honor, you know, what my
25:03
decision was Because and that that is such a, you know, gift
25:07
in the sense that you don't have to like, guess or say, like, am
25:11
I making the right decision? Like am I making it for myself
25:13
or for that person? I think it really takes away
25:16
that burden, all those things as we get older.
25:19
It's like something that's very real.
25:21
When we did our will, you know, we did all those things and of
25:25
life care and it's so funny how different we were.
25:30
We are so different. I'm like and he's like, well, I
25:35
don't know if yeah, I mean not to TMI, but one thing that we,
25:41
Ben and I had such different was I said, if I am brain dead,
25:46
please disconnect because you're brain dead.
25:50
You're dead, right? But he's like, no, just keep me
25:53
on his dog long as possible. So that's what's in our will.
25:58
So it's personal choice for sure.
26:01
I want to talk a little bit about, you know, end of life
26:04
emotions. You are in the field.
26:08
What do you see in this these families that you would care
26:11
for? You know, it's so like different
26:14
for every family and all the emotions show up, right?
26:17
Like, and then like what kind of decisions do you make based on
26:20
that, right? There's no clear cut or easy
26:22
answer. Like everything feels so crappy
26:25
and you know, there's no good answers and nothing feels like,
26:29
you know, like exactly right. Like it's just this like mixed
26:32
emotions of like, you know, what am I supposed to do?
26:35
Yeah, what I did, what you said makes huge sense that there's no
26:39
right answer. So there's there's no clear cut
26:43
decision that you could make on behalf of someone else in such a
26:47
hard place. Kind of making best decision.
26:50
You can't with what you know. And I think it's you're going to
26:52
always like have days when like, you know, you're going to
26:55
wrestle with that and not, you know, not be sure.
26:58
And I think grief is such a complex thing where it's like
27:01
it's not like you get over it. It's something that you work
27:04
through and, you know, some days you're key.
27:06
And then out of nowhere it comes something that you know, hits
27:09
you and then you're just like right back there.
27:12
There's Epsom flows to that and think even and how we talk about
27:16
grief, how we see it has changed.
27:18
It's like something that you know, comes and goes.
27:21
You'll make peace with at whatever time and peace.
27:24
Yeah, and it's such a personal journey to everyone's journey is
27:27
going to be different, how you work through the grief.
27:30
Yeah, I remember like when my mom died and I was like, just
27:35
like in a place of anger, like I think we have to go pick flowers
27:38
or something. And I was just like being
27:39
sniffy. I was like, really sure.
27:41
My sister, my sister and I was just like, really upset at
27:43
everything. And it's just like kind of short
27:45
fuse. And as I thought about it, I'm
27:47
like, why is that where I'm turning to?
27:50
And as I sort of like did a little bit of introspection, I
27:53
was like, you know what? The anger I can control the the
27:56
sadness and tears. I can't.
27:58
It just like hits me out of nowhere.
28:00
And I think that was like kind of like my default setting where
28:03
like feel like I had a little bit of control of like when to
28:06
be angry. And that's what kind of showed
28:07
up for me initially because like, I could hear a song or I
28:11
could see, you know, a particular thought or something
28:14
that reminded me of my mom and it'd be just bawling, you know,
28:16
the tears would just come. But I think it's just like, as I
28:20
thought, like, I go, how interesting.
28:21
Because like that was like my default places.
28:24
How? How long has it been?
28:26
Three years? Four years.
28:27
Yeah, it's been, it's been 3. It'll be 4 this August.
28:31
How is that? It's like it's, you know, as I
28:34
got into this field, I'm like, Oh my gosh, have I had time to
28:37
to work through my own grief? And I think, I don't know, I'm
28:40
just like the kind of person that sort of sit with myself and
28:44
I have some, you know, introspection.
28:46
I think I've work through it little by little, but I haven't
28:48
done sort of sometimes I'm like, perhaps like at some point I'm
28:51
going to have to do my own therapy, therapeutic work and
28:53
connect to someone because I think it does, you know, sort of
28:57
give you a different space. And not always because there's
29:00
something big, but I think it's just ability to have a space to
29:04
like, you know, perhaps there are things like I haven't worked
29:06
on, you know, or things for my childhood or whatever it is, you
29:09
know, that like to just have sort of that self-awareness of
29:12
like. When I, when I see my mom these
29:15
days, I feel like, wow, I'm very close to really rolling on my
29:20
sleeves and caring for her. Oh, I don't know, I'm ready
29:23
physically and emotionally because I feel like I'm barely
29:27
making my own physically. I'm trying my best, but I don't
29:31
know if I'm in the physical state to care for someone like
29:34
and emotionally, I don't know, you know, I, I don't know who
29:39
would benefit from hearing this, but a few years ago I was going
29:42
through therapy and because of my anxiety and depression at the
29:46
time, my fear was for everybody around me.
29:51
And my fear for my mom especially was, Oh my gosh, what
29:56
if she dies like this? Her life has no meaning and my
30:03
therapist said and and this was impacting me literally hard,
30:08
right? Like how can a person born and
30:12
live with so much suffering and just work and all these like to
30:16
me meaningless. I don't want to say that, but
30:19
you know what I mean? Like minimal like impact.
30:23
How can someone die? Like what is the meaning of her
30:26
life? And I was like getting like so
30:29
anxious about that. And my therapist said that's
30:33
her, her own life. She's a woman.
30:37
She made her own choices. Whether you agree or not or was
30:40
good or bad, that was that's all on her.
30:44
And that's her life that she lived.
30:46
I am, I have no place to I feel like that was that was not
30:52
meaningful. If it was meaningful for her, it
30:55
was meaningful even if I feel like, Oh my God, what did she
30:57
accomplish in this lifetime, right?
31:00
And that's just my own thinking, not really the reality.
31:04
And that really made me realize I cannot fix my parents life,
31:10
right? No matter how much I want to, I
31:12
want to try. And I just need to accept that
31:16
that was their life because to make it make a difference.
31:21
The reason I'm saying this is I feel like many of us have that
31:25
guilt or burden, especially immigrant parents.
31:28
My parents came to this country with no money, no language
31:31
skills, and they had to survive in this land.
31:36
And their only hope was for US children to get educated, to
31:42
become successful, to be in the mainstream America.
31:46
Right. Yeah.
31:47
And we're looking. At.
31:48
Ourselves going did I do enough for their sacrifice?
31:53
And I think that brings and me included, such guilt and burden,
31:59
especially at this time of our lives because we are looking at
32:03
our elderly parents suffering and needing our help.
32:06
And that's the reality. And us still feeling obligated,
32:10
responsible, but at the same time resentful.
32:14
So I just wanted to put it out there for somebody I don't know.
32:18
Yeah. There's nothing you can't do to
32:21
make your parents life different.
32:24
That was their choice. That was their life.
32:25
And if it was meaningful for them to work so hard, sacrifice
32:31
everything for or their children, then that was
32:34
meaningful. Absolutely.
32:35
I think it just. Sort of brings me back.
32:37
We're each our own person and we are so the drivers of our own
32:40
stories, our own life. Who am I to say like that is
32:43
just not, you know, meaningful or that's the wrong choice.
32:46
If our parents grew up in a different generation under, you
32:49
know, who knows what their own like life stories are, right?
32:52
What was sort of their family life?
32:54
You know, did they have parents? Did they grow up with raised by
32:57
someone else? Because they didn't, you know,
32:59
like I know, like that's true for both of my parents, you
33:01
know, where my mom was, you know, raised by her stepmom and
33:04
my dad too, like, you know, he lost his dad and then he had
33:07
another step Dads, did you perhaps not have somebody love
33:10
you and model and give you that nurturing that for us children
33:14
is like, Oh my gosh, I am not gonna parent like my parents.
33:17
I'm gonna do it differently. And perhaps we're like on the,
33:20
you know, other extreme of where we're like just like too much.
33:23
I don't know what her, you know, what her children would say,
33:27
right? I think it's like, is there a
33:29
happy medium? I speak for it myself.
33:31
And perhaps like you can, you know, sort of like share this.
33:34
It's like we're like my mom, you know, my dad had no idea like
33:37
how for me to apply to school or, you know, like they weren't
33:40
like, you know, coming to parent teacher conferences.
33:43
You know, they were just like, OK, please do your homework and
33:46
get good grades and like, it's your life.
33:48
You want to go to college or not is up to you, right?
33:50
So they weren't hovering nor did they have the time or language
33:53
skills or any of that to to be able to help me with that.
33:56
And I guess most of us turn, OK, like your hopes, you know, for
34:00
me may not be the same hopes. And like, I get that you work.
34:04
Why are you trying to vicariously live through through
34:06
me and perform or make sure like we're doing what we're supposed
34:10
to because it was such as such a sacrifice.
34:14
I would like to believe that our parents, you know, hope that
34:16
there's meaning within their life.
34:18
And, you know, but not to say the other stuff is very real.
34:21
And I think it's like, you know, part of an immigrant family,
34:24
hopefully that there's still somewhere.
34:26
I think, you know, we probably all have that, that grass
34:28
attitude, right. I mean, it's such a complex and.
34:31
Multi layered thing life, right? I mean, our parents, us and our
34:37
children now, who knows, right? As you mature, you come to a
34:41
place where you accept things for what it is, have that
34:45
gratitude for the reality of the life.
34:49
Yeah, like you, sometimes I wonder what my children would
34:52
say in therapy one day going on my mom.
34:55
Whatever. You got to work.
34:58
It out with your own. Therapist I know that's that's.
35:01
Their own life to figure right, you know, whatever beef you have
35:05
with me, please take it to therapy or please tell me.
35:09
And then we'll like try and work on it.
35:11
And that's the thing, right? It's it's, it's their own like
35:13
being your own person, like it's your own perspective, your own
35:16
lens of how you see the world, how you see your parents, how
35:19
you see your family dynamics, how you make sense of the world.
35:23
Hopefully through that, take control of that narrative or
35:25
like an alive person, like how do you take sort of those
35:28
experiences to shape you and to not only help yourself but help
35:32
others and you know, mindful and kind to the people that are
35:35
surrounding us. I think once I was able to see.
35:38
My parents as who they are, I think I am able to be more
35:42
compassionate and empathetic. Cycles back and forth, right?
35:45
And sometimes I'm like, I get it and I'm like, I see it.
35:47
But other times it's like, Oh my gosh, yes.
35:49
I think it's, you know, just part of being a human that, you
35:52
know, some days we are a little more understanding.
35:55
Our inner compassion bucket is fuller.
35:58
Sometimes you scream at them and then next time you see them,
36:01
you'll be able to be okay. And it's just how it is
36:03
Families, right? Yeah, what?
36:06
Is one thing that you. Learned from your work about
36:11
life and death. Really appreciating every.
36:13
Moment, I think it's like none of us know how much life we have
36:17
and it's just really living in the moment and being present.
36:20
I think sometimes I'm so busy with my head of thinking like
36:23
what's next and after. But I think just taking pause
36:26
and, and really sort of sitting, you know, with each person being
36:30
intentional and extending kindness first ourselves so that
36:34
we can have kindness to extend to others and having love for
36:37
everybody around me and just being grateful and, and doing my
36:42
part of what I can't. And that's what sort of really
36:44
fills my covers, being fully present.
36:49
But thanks for the wisdom that you share with us.
36:53
Hopefully others would be able to take some insight and be
37:00
encouraged that they're not alone and less guilty and
37:03
appreciate where we are in life. Thanks, Rubes.
37:06
Thank you. You're.
37:07
Such a like miss podcast right now you're like.