Latest / Karl and Crew / The Unsaved Christian with Dean Inserra & The Difference Between Religion and Saving Faith in Christ with Abdu Murray

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The Unsaved Christian with Dean Inserra & The Difference Between Religion and Saving Faith in Christ with Abdu Murray · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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  S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now, from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S5: I had a great conversation with a man last week
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  S5: around this whole issue of salvation. And we really. If
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  S5: we love people, we really have to tell them the truth, right?
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  S4: I mean, I think so we yeah. How could we not?
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  S5: Yeah. We gotta, we gotta tell people the truth. And
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  S5: the truth is about the gospel. And if you go
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  S5: to the judgment passages in parables that Jesus tells in
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  S5: Matthew 25, I mention a lot about the bridesmaids. Everybody's
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  S5: dressed up. Five are ready to go because their lamps
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  S5: are filled with the oil, representing life filled with God.
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  S5: So you can have a lamp, you can have dressed
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  S5: up like you're ready to go, waiting for the Son
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  S5: of Man, Jesus Christ himself, to return and take us
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  S5: with him. But five were ready. Jesus warned of this
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  S5: is what the kingdom of heaven is like, and five
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  S5: were not. You go to the parable of the talents
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  S5: in the same chapter, and it's. It's a even a
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  S5: little more striking because you've got some talents being invested here.
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  S5: And a lot of times this passage is used especially for, uh,
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  S5: capital campaigns at churches or, or just stewardship issues all around.
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  S5: And we're inviting people to not be the guy that
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  S5: gets one talent, right? Because the guy with one talent,
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  S5: he buried it. And what did Jesus say to the
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  S5: guy with one talent? He said, man, you're a wicked servant.
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  S5: Depart from me. In other words, there's an eternity separated
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  S5: from him. So you got to ask the question, what
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  S5: any text out of context is pretext. Keep going back
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  S5: to that. You got to ask the question, well, what
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  S5: is the meaning of the text? And let me give
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  S5: you the meaning of the text, the parable of the talents.
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  S5: Can you apply it to lots of things in life,
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  S5: not have a scarcity mindset and all that? Yeah. But
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  S5: at the end of the day, the direct context is
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  S5: the scarcity mindset is reflective of someone who does not
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  S5: have a relationship with God. The guys that were given
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  S5: two talents, the guy that was given five talents, what
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  S5: did they go do with those talents?
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  S6: They invested them.
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  S5: They invested them. Now here's what this means. This is
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  S5: not about don't have a scarcity mindset. Instead, give, you know,
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  S5: give what you can to the local church. No, this
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  S5: is a is there some application loosely around that? Sure.
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  S5: But to direct context is far more striking. There were
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  S5: two of the three that had a mindset because they
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  S5: had been regenerated by a relationship with Jesus Christ, that
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  S5: all that they were all that they had everything time, talent, treasure, aspirations, goals,
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  S5: everything was totally Surrendered to God. Now, does this mean
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  S5: that everyone who is born again has this fully ironed out,
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  S5: and that we're always living with open hands before God? No,
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  S5: because we don't always do that unless you do.
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  S2: Alli know well, and the the for the one that
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  S2: just had the one and buried, it was even the
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  S2: language I. I knew you were a hard man harvesting
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  S2: where you have not sown and gathering where you have
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  S2: not scattered seed. I mean a total misunderstanding, whether purposeful
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  S2: or ignorance of the nature of. And this in the
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  S2: parable of the master.
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  S5: Total miss of the master, and total disconnection with him
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  S5: at a heart level. And so what's being taught here
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  S5: by Jesus is that those that are fit for the kingdom,
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  S5: when he comes back, they will have, no matter what
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  S5: level of talents they've been given, which is representative of
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  S5: a monetary, uh, entrusting, but it's way more representative of
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  S5: the totality of who we are. Every good and perfect
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  S5: gift comes down from above. The father of lights. There's
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  S5: no shifting shadow. So the only question that I have
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  S5: for you this morning, boom crew is at the deepest,
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  S5: most inner part of your heart. Do you long to
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  S5: surrender all of your time, all of your talent, all
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  S5: of your treasure, all of your aspirations to God? The
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  S5: issue is not do you perfectly invest all those things,
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  S5: but at the deepest part of your heart, do you
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  S5: long to. And this is this is the rub. Matthew
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  S5: 25 is all about people that are dressed up, look
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  S5: a certain way, and those that really have a heart
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  S5: aimed toward the glory of God and those that don't.
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  S5: And that's that's a striking passage. I was talking about
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  S5: this passage, Jim Coakley. He's one of our elders at
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  S5: our church and also a prof here at Moody Bible Institute.
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  S5: And I said, Jim, we have missed the context of this.
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  S5: Like the broadside of the barn, the broadside. This is
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  S5: salvific passage. This is that is what it's being. That's
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  S5: what's being taught here. And he goes, yeah, you're right.
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  S5: It is. But here's the here's the cool thing you
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  S5: can know today because the warning, there is a warning
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  S5: for people who think they're with God, like the bridesmaids five,
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  S5: who think that they're ready. And so Jesus didn't say
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  S5: this to just scare people. He did it as a
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  S5: cautionary parable to say, be ready so that when God
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  S5: comes back, He won't say you're an evil servant or
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  S5: you five bridesmaids. You aren't ready to go, but that
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  S5: you're ready to go. And then the question is, well, Carl,
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  S5: how can I know? And I just want to be
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  S5: real clear with you this morning, like I was with
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  S5: a man that I met with last week, because it's
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  S5: spiritual malpractice to not be clear about the gospel. And
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  S5: I just looked him square in the eye and I said, brother,
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  S5: I just got to ask you something. Have you come
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  S5: to a point in your life where you stared in
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  S5: the mirror of your soul and go, man, I'm the
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  S5: problem with my life. I'm a sinner. I need a savior.
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  S5: And if you come to the point where you recognize
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  S5: this and you have repented and turned onto the path
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  S5: less traveled. And his response was dynamite. He says, I
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  S5: have Carl. And then with a little more discussion, he said,
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  S5: but for 30 years, I've never had anyone tell me
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  S5: how to walk this new path.
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  S2: Wow.
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  S5: Isn't that something?
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  S6: Yeah.
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  S5: So he's been in church for 30 years, but no
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  S5: one has told him how to walk this new path.
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  S5: So we have both a discipleship issue in the local church,
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  S5: but we also have some. And maybe it's you this
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  S5: morning that, truth be told, you don't have the oil
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  S5: of a relationship with Jesus Christ in your lamp. Truth
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  S5: be told, you have a scarcity mindset and maybe one
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  S5: of the greatest reflections that your heart is far from
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  S5: God is that your scarcity mindset is you're holding on
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  S5: to control of your time, talent, and treasure. You haven't
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  S5: ever come to the point where you say, God, you've
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  S5: got it all. And I want to tell you, friend,
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  S5: we're only fit for the kingdom of God. When the
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  S5: love of God has so transformed our heart that we say, God,
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  S5: you got all of me again. are we going to
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  S5: be perfect with that, or are there going to be
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  S5: times when we close our hands and get a grip
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  S5: on the stuff of this world? Sure. But looking in
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  S5: your heart, I want to ask you right now, have
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  S5: you ever come to a point in time when you said, God,
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  S5: you have all of me. I'm a sinner. I need
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  S5: a Savior. I'm following Jesus. You've got all of me.
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  S5: And if you haven't, I'm going to ask you, like
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  S5: I asked a friend last week, have you ever come
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  S5: to the point? And maybe today is the point where
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  S5: you say. I'm a sinner. I was born with my
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  S5: back to God. There was nothing lovable about me. Born
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  S5: in the image of God. But all have sinned and
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  S5: fall short of the glory of God. And Carl, I'm
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  S5: here to tell you I'm. I'm that guy. I'm that gal.
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  S5: I've been in church, but I've never really been in Christ.
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  S5: Never tasted the joy of love and joy and peace
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  S5: that transcends understanding. Never tasted that I want you to today.
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  S5: And it's just a simple story. The disciples went out
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  S5: and they preached the gospel of repentance and turning around,
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  S5: leaving all that you are, all that you hope to
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  S5: be on that broad path and turning and following Jesus
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  S5: Christ today. And I'm going to pray for you right now.
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  S5: Oh father, reach into the hearts of people all across
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  S5: North America and beyond. I'm asking you, Lord, by the
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  S5: power of your Holy Spirit, would you call people out
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  S5: of darkness and into the light today, for the first
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  S5: time ever surrendering all they are to you? God, I
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  S5: praise you that right now you're revealing to people that
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  S5: a scarcity mindset, this holding on to the things of
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  S5: this world, holding on to reputation and image and money
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  S5: and Stuff and there's no life there. Lord, I thank
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  S5: you that you open hearts and you transform and you change.
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  S5: And Lord, I thank you that you convict and you
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  S5: reveal to someone right now that they've never been in Christ,
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  S5: even though many have been in church. And so, Lord,
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  S5: thank you. Thank you. Right now that you're at work,
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  S5: in Jesus name we pray. Amen. And let it be
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  S5: right now some of you are saying, oh. The spirit
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  S5: of the living God is revealing to me. I've never
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  S5: been in Christ Jesus. I've never repented of my sin
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  S5: and followed Jesus saying, you've got it all. Whatever you've
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  S5: given me is yours. But today, your cry of your soul,
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  S5: not even words. That's what happened to me when I
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  S5: was born again. Jesus just said, are you done yet?
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  S5: I said, I'm done. You have all of me, every
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  S5: bit of me. And I went from a scarcity mentality,
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  S5: fearful of God, but holding on to my own life,
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  S5: opening up my heart to him. And if that's the
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  S5: cry of your soul today, where you say, today I'm
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  S5: a sinner, I need a Savior. I'm going to follow Jesus.
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  S5: I'm taking my hands off everything, every good gift he's
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  S5: given me. And today I follow Jesus. I want to
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  S5: welcome you to the family of God, and that's between
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  S5: you and God. But if that's you today, we want
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  S5: to help you. It's something we do here we're committed to.
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  S5: Maybe you're tuning in for the first time or for
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  S5: the first time, the Holy Spirit's cut through the fog
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  S5: of your illusion of salvation. And we're going to help him,
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  S5: aren't we?
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  S2: Yes. So if that's you, just text the word new
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  S2: and e w to 800 555 7898, just text new
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  S2: 805 557898 You're going to receive from us an auto
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  S2: reply that has a link. You can fill out a
• 12:50
  S2: form if you want. Follow up from someone on our
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  S2: team here at Moody Radio, no matter where you live
• 12:54
  S2: in the country. Also, if you need help getting a Bible,
• 12:57
  S2: getting connected to a church, just text new to 805 557898.
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  S5: Yeah. So this is the most important thing we can
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  S5: share with you. This is the defining moment of our
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  S5: season here with Moody Radio. Yeah, it's what Bruce Everhart
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  S5: said just last week. We are wanting to be clear
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  S5: with the gospel because the illusion of salvation, according to
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  S5: Matthew 25 and Matthew seven. Is a profound deception. But
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  S5: today is a new day for some of you crying
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  S5: out to God saying, I give you my all for
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  S5: the first time. Text new to 805 557898. And welcome
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  S5: to the family.
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  S1: Today it's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
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  S5: All right, young Thunder, give us the latest on Iran
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  S5: before we bring in Lana. What's going on?
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  S3: Yeah, Carl. So you were right. Last night was the
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  S3: ninth consecutive night of strikes that the U.S. has conducted
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  S3: on Iran. This all started, uh, 9 or 10 days
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  S3: ago when Iran first was striking ships in the Strait
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  S3: of Hormuz. Vessels that were coming through the U.S. said, basically,
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  S3: stop that. Iran didn't stop that. And so we had
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  S3: some retaliatory strikes. Now, strikes have gone back and forth for, uh,
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  S3: the course of nine full days. Uh, the U.S. has
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  S3: kind of ramped up what they're doing, uh, taking out
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  S3: some facilities, roads, tunnels, railways, port infrastructure. Uh, there are
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  S3: some things that Iran has said that the U.S. has
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  S3: not confirmed, so I won't mention those as fact. Uh,
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  S3: but the Iranian state has now gone after Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain,
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  S3: Kuwait has taken the brunt of it, uh, hitting a
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  S3: desalinization and power plant there. So taking out some civilian
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  S3: infrastructure as well. Two U.S. service members in Jordan have
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  S3: been killed and one in Iraq. And so those are U.S.
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  S3: service members that have been killed in strikes from Iran.
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  S5: Yeah, it's really ramping up. Lana Silk is here with
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  S5: us because there's a lot of stuff going on behind
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  S5: the scenes that we just simply don't know, or the
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  S5: way it's spun on network or cable news, we often
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  S5: need to get more. There's more to the story. Lana,
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  S5: what's going on in Iran right now? And what do
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  S5: you what do you believe the general take is from 80%
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  S5: of the people in Iran with this war ramping up again?
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  S7: I would say that the general take of Iranians is
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  S7: relief that the U.S. is re-engaging with this kind of action.
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  S7: When we had conversations of ceasefires and peace deals, there
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  S7: was a lot of disappointment in the the overall emphasis was,
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  S7: was our sacrifice for nothing. So now people have a
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  S7: sense that, okay, maybe something is still being done about
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  S7: our situation. Of course, the US isn't specifically talking about
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  S7: regime change, but that is what the Iranian people want.
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  S7: They want to be free of this oppressive government. And
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  S7: right now, they see this kind of fighting as the
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  S7: only way to weaken their government and hopefully eventually overthrow it.
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  S2: Alana Silk, our guest right now President and Chief Executive
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  S2: Officer with Transform Iran. I want to get your clarification
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  S2: on something that I know you've explained here before, but
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  S2: for the benefit of our new listeners, why would a
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  S2: cease fire not be a good thing? Because people hear
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  S2: that and it trips them up.
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  S7: Right. A cease fire basically gives the Iranian government the
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  S7: opportunity to regroup, rearm, strengthen themselves, and get back to
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  S7: their overall objective, which is to focus their energies outside
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  S7: their borders and take down Western democracy. They've announced that objective,
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  S7: that desire, and they have worked clearly towards it through
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  S7: their proxies, through the terrorism that they sanction. Uh, for
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  S7: decades now, they're not interested in the welfare of their
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  S7: own people. So in a normal situation, when there's a
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  S7: cease fire, the government would look inwards and think, right,
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  S7: where's the damage? Who needs help? What aid needs to
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  S7: be provided? None of that happens in cease fire in Iran.
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  S7: When we have cease fire, they get more brutal with
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  S7: the arrests around, collecting together people that they think are
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  S7: against the government, executing people, torturing people and rearming themselves
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  S7: to fight the West.
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  S5: Yeah, this is a brutal regime, Alana. It's just brutal.
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  S5: And I think sometimes, and I get it, um, we're
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  S5: this is a dicey time here stateside because we've got
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  S5: midterm elections coming up. Oil prices are dicey because that
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  S5: affects the general population when it comes to casting ballots
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  S5: and the like. But we may be in a position
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  S5: here where we've got to keep pounding away on this regime.
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  S5: And I know that not only Christ's followers in Iran,
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  S5: but the general population writ large, really hopes that something
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  S5: happens to displace this current regime. And all the while,
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  S5: the gospel's going out. Lana. What's happening? You must have
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  S5: some fresh stories about what's happening in Iran with the gospel.
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  S7: I do. People are still getting saved. People are still
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  S7: turning to Jesus. The Christians are very active in Iran
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  S7: in spreading the good news, the hope that they have
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  S7: with the lost around them. We have had the benefit
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  S7: of donations from listeners of your station, as well as
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  S7: others who've been supporting us in sending aid into the country.
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  S7: And we've been giving that to our church networks. They've
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  S7: been traveling, ministering to people, sharing the gospel, comforting Christians
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  S7: who are isolated and giving them aid. And that's been
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  S7: sending ripple effects of just lives transformed. Aside from that,
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  S7: we're also still busy with the work of the gospel.
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  S7: We do a lot of work in translating the Bible
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  S7: and Christian resources into the different languages of Iran that
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  S7: right now don't have these resources. And one of our
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  S7: great partnerships is with the Cumin Seed Foundation, who produced
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  S7: the chosen series. We're translating the chosen into 11 languages
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  S7: right now in Iran. And just this last week, I
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  S7: had news of a couple of sisters who were working
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  S7: on one of the languages. Um, and they weren't we'd
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  S7: love to work with non-Christians on these projects because it's
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  S7: such a great way to draw new people to the Lord.
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  S7: And these Christians had non-Christian sisters have been working on
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  S7: the chosen. And once they got to season three, they
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  S7: realized what Jesus had done for them and have chosen
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  S7: to follow him are now being dismantled.
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  S8: Wow. Oh, incredible. Okay.
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  S5: That's one of the best ever.
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  S2: Lana Silk, President and Chief Executive Officer With Transform Iran,
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  S2: we have a key word for you. This is going
• 19:38
  S2: to get you more updates from the website, but also
• 19:41
  S2: a guide to how to pray. When you hear something
• 19:43
  S2: like this, you go, you hear headlines and then you
• 19:46
  S2: get context and you go, okay, maybe we we pray
• 19:49
  S2: differently now that we know what's really going on. Text
• 19:52
  S2: transform to (800) 555-7898. Text transform (800) 555-7898.
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  S5: What good news from Lana Ali.
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  S2: Beautiful. I love that that chosen story.
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  S5: Yes.
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  S2: My goodness.
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  S1: He was running from God, but God's love brought him home.
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  S1: Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on
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  S1: Moody Radio.
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  S5: It's amazing how God created not only human beings, but
• 20:25
  S5: even these critters that run around our legs can trip
• 20:29
  S5: us up. By the way, how's your how's your leg
• 20:32
  S5: healing up super day. We need a leg healing.
• 20:35
  S4: My my foot. Yeah. No, my foot, thankfully, is much,
• 20:37
  S4: much better. But yes, due to my little furball, I
• 20:43
  S4: had a very twisted foot for quite a while. Some
• 20:46
  S4: torn ligaments and yeah, all that good stuff. But it's good.
• 20:49
  S4: Thank you. It is much better.
• 20:50
  S5: Glad to hear that.
• 20:51
  S3: Animals are so good at being in the way of
• 20:54
  S3: your feet. My dog. Right now, it's even worse than
• 20:58
  S3: usual because he's got a cone on his head because
• 21:00
  S3: he's got summer allergies and he scratches a lot. So
• 21:03
  S3: we just put a cone on him to help him
• 21:05
  S3: rest every now and then. But when he has that cone,
• 21:07
  S3: his like dexterity and like coordination is ten times worse
• 21:11
  S3: than it usually is. And it's bad when he doesn't
• 21:14
  S3: have a cone on. He's bumping into everything and running
• 21:18
  S3: into us because he just doesn't get it.
• 21:20
  S5: Yeah, it's a funny thing. I've found out something pretty
• 21:23
  S5: staggering about this, and I had a friend confirm this
• 21:26
  S5: with his own pup. So we had bad, bad, bad
• 21:31
  S5: fire smoke here last Thursday.
• 21:34
  S3: Friday really bad.
• 21:34
  S5: Bad, bad. Yeah. In fact, Thursday got up to an
• 21:37
  S5: index of 701. So on your phone, if you got
• 21:41
  S5: bad air quality, it pegs at 500. Okay, so.
• 21:45
  S3: That can't go.
• 21:45
  S5: Bad. And I'm like, so I'm going searching this thing out.
• 21:49
  S5: And I'm like, well, what in the world happens beyond 500?
• 21:52
  S5: And I'm not one of those guys that freaks out,
• 21:53
  S5: but I'm like, well, what happens when you go above that? Yeah.
• 21:58
  S5: I mean, is this like imminent death or what's happening here? Well,
• 22:01
  S5: it's just bad. These little particulates are really not good
• 22:04
  S5: for you. Yeah. So you got to stay out of that.
• 22:06
  S5: So I'd taken out blaze, my husky pup from Alaska.
• 22:10
  S5: Love this guy. And I'd taken him out because we
• 22:13
  S5: got to go out and do the do the tours
• 22:15
  S5: because we don't have indoor facilities for his type, you know,
• 22:18
  S5: we just don't have that. So we got to get
• 22:20
  S5: him outdoors, guys. The second, third and fourth time I
• 22:24
  S5: go to take him out, he's happy to get out
• 22:28
  S5: of the kennel. And then he just plops his booty
• 22:31
  S5: down and I'm going, let's go. And he's like, no.
• 22:35
  S2: Not going. Oh, no. And this is a guy who
• 22:38
  S2: normally loves to get up and go outside.
• 22:41
  S5: For the exits. So I'm like, what's going on? And
• 22:46
  S5: he just looked at me and I mean, steely eyed,
• 22:50
  S5: just sitting down. So I tug on the collar and
• 22:52
  S5: he's like, all fours just dug in. I'm not going.
• 22:56
  S4: Hysterical.
• 22:57
  S5: No, I mean, it's crazy.
• 22:59
  S3: He knew.
• 23:00
  S5: So I had to pick that turkey up. And when
• 23:03
  S5: he realized we're going no matter what he's like, all right,
• 23:07
  S5: I'll walk. I mean, I don't want to be carried £55,
• 23:11
  S5: for crying out loud.
• 23:12
  S2: That's embarrassing. Yeah, right.
• 23:14
  S5: Yeah. He doesn't want to be carried. He's a super athlete,
• 23:17
  S5: you know. So he's like, all right, I'll walk. And
• 23:19
  S5: I promise him I said, we'll go out. We'll do
• 23:22
  S5: the chores and we'll get back. We're not going for
• 23:24
  S5: a big old walk. And I think he understood because
• 23:27
  S5: he's like, all right, let's get out there. And sure enough,
• 23:30
  S5: he did his job and heads right back for the
• 23:33
  S5: for the door.
• 23:35
  S4: Smart.
• 23:36
  S3: Yeah, they I mean, their sense of smell too, is, like,
• 23:38
  S3: way better than ours. And so I'm sure it bothers
• 23:40
  S3: them way more inside.
• 23:41
  S5: The house going it's out there.
• 23:43
  S3: Yeah. Because I know it's still there.
• 23:44
  S5: It's out there. And, you know, there's, there's a metaphor
• 23:49
  S5: in this because sometimes we have this sense that something
• 23:53
  S5: isn't right as human beings, right? Something's not right.
• 23:57
  S2: Even if you can't put your finger on what it is.
• 24:00
  S5: Yeah. And we're tackling that today in a bold manner.
• 24:05
  S5: And it's, it's a tough truth, isn't it, to be
• 24:08
  S5: faced with the reality that we may not know Jesus,
• 24:12
  S5: even though we're doing Jesus type things, I think.
• 24:16
  S2: Is that possible? Coming up, a conversation with Dean and Sarah,
• 24:19
  S2: he's got a book called The Unsaved Christian. That alone
• 24:24
  S2: perks your interest, right? Coming up.
• 24:27
  S1: Take your next step with Jesus. Today you're listening to
• 24:31
  S1: Carl and Crew.
• 24:32
  S5: So you've heard us talk about it a lot. We
• 24:35
  S5: go to Matthew seven, we go to Matthew 25. By
• 24:39
  S5: the way, I've had a big aha moment about the
• 24:41
  S5: parable of the talents that's found in Matthew 25. A
• 24:44
  S5: lot of us have looked at that and think, oh,
• 24:46
  S5: it's about financial stewardship. No, it's about a judgment passage.
• 24:50
  S5: Those that invest the totality of their life, they are
• 24:54
  S5: reflective of those that are in Christ Jesus, the one
• 24:58
  S5: who has a scarcity mindset and that hides that one talent.
• 25:02
  S5: They do not know Jesus personally. The whole chapter is
• 25:05
  S5: committed to that truth. It's quite shocking, isn't it? Dean
• 25:09
  S5: and Sarah.
• 25:10
  S9: Absolutely. I mean, how many people are out there that
• 25:14
  S9: think they are fine with the Lord but actually are not?
• 25:17
  S5: How many do you think there are? If you look
• 25:20
  S5: at the West, obviously you can't throw a number at it,
• 25:22
  S5: but is it a lot more than we may imagine?
• 25:26
  S9: Yeah. Well, you mentioned Matthew seven, where Jesus before he
• 25:29
  S9: talks about how many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord,
• 25:33
  S9: did not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in
• 25:35
  S9: your name. You know they're appealing to their own actions
• 25:38
  S9: rather than to the need for forgiveness. He says many
• 25:41
  S9: and then a few verses before that, he talks about
• 25:43
  S9: the wide gate and the narrow gate and what the
• 25:45
  S9: wide gate, he says many are on it. And the
• 25:48
  S9: example he gives of what that looks like are people
• 25:51
  S9: who think they're on the narrow road, but are actually
• 25:54
  S9: on the wide road. So I think it's a lot
• 25:56
  S9: more than we think, in other words.
• 25:58
  S2: Dean and Sarah, our guest right now, he's written several books.
• 26:00
  S2: The one we're featuring today is called The Unsaved Christian
• 26:03
  S2: Reaching Cultural Christianity with the gospel. So tell us, what
• 26:08
  S2: are some of the hallmark signs that we can call
• 26:12
  S2: out to recognize cultural Christianity for what it is?
• 26:16
  S9: Yeah. And we're not talking about baby Christians or even
• 26:18
  S9: immature Christians, brand new Christians. That's not what we're talking about.
• 26:21
  S9: We're talking about people. If you ask them, are they
• 26:24
  S9: a Christian? They would say yes, but their reason for
• 26:27
  S9: believing so has nothing to do with what the Bible
• 26:30
  S9: would say. It's saving faith. So they walked into a
• 26:33
  S9: restaurant and just asked somebody, hey, are you a Christian?
• 26:35
  S9: And they said, yes. He said, I'm just curious what
• 26:37
  S9: makes you that? Or why do you think that? And
• 26:40
  S9: they would say something like, well, I'm a good person.
• 26:43
  S9: I believe in God. Kind of a generic theism or,
• 26:47
  S9: you know, I come from a religious family. You know,
• 26:49
  S9: I've been to church before. Notice what didn't come out
• 26:52
  S9: of that person's mouth, the name or the work of
• 26:55
  S9: Jesus Christ. So can you really actually be saved from
• 26:58
  S9: your sins? If your answer to why you're a Christian
• 27:00
  S9: is not dependent upon Jesus at all. And that's what's happening.
• 27:03
  S9: So a generic theism, the universal belief that I'm a
• 27:07
  S9: good person, everyone thinks they're a good person, and then
• 27:10
  S9: that they come from some sort of Christian heritage background familiarity,
• 27:14
  S9: that those are the big ones, those those three things
• 27:16
  S9: we'll say heritage, generic belief and personal morality.
• 27:21
  S5: Yeah. Dean. It's interesting. I was doing a deep dive
• 27:24
  S5: on a project and I started studying what the demons believe.
• 27:30
  S5: And they don't just believe in the deity of Jesus.
• 27:32
  S5: The list goes on and on about what the demons believe.
• 27:36
  S5: They're very knowledgeable. They're almost orthodox. They clearly aren't atheist
• 27:41
  S5: or agnostic. They believe a lot of things. And so
• 27:45
  S5: we need to be careful because the belief that Jesus
• 27:49
  S5: calls out, I think 11 times in the New Testament,
• 27:52
  S5: attached to that is a full blown surrender of oneself.
• 27:58
  S5: It's not intellectual assent, it's surrender to the person of Jesus.
• 28:02
  S5: Speak to that, Dean.
• 28:04
  S9: Yeah. And I mean, we can go we can take
• 28:06
  S9: as far as you want in terms of the demons belief,
• 28:08
  S9: because if anyone knows that Jesus died on the cross,
• 28:11
  S9: it's the devil. If anyone knows that Easter Sunday is
• 28:14
  S9: a real event, it's the devil, right? If anybody, if
• 28:17
  S9: anybody knows. So what happens is in a generic, I
• 28:22
  S9: focus more on the generic belief side because so many
• 28:26
  S9: people would claim to believe in God even as we
• 28:28
  S9: see the nones NONE none. As the nones are growing still,
• 28:33
  S9: the majority of people in America would claim belief in God.
• 28:36
  S9: But the question we have to ask is, who is
• 28:38
  S9: this God you're talking about? Is it the God of
• 28:40
  S9: the Bible, or is it kind of a big man upstairs?
• 28:44
  S9: Divine Santa Claus, grandpa figure, Yoda, figure from Star Wars?
• 28:49
  S9: You know, that, that kind of idea. And if it's
• 28:51
  S9: just that kind of generic belief, then as you said,
• 28:54
  S9: it's not going to lead to any kind of committed,
• 28:57
  S9: responsive belief. It's more just going to be on a
• 29:00
  S9: rainy day, Jesus, take the wheel, that kind of idea.
• 29:03
  S9: But the reality is we don't get to believe God
• 29:05
  S9: as we want to believe God. God has revealed himself
• 29:07
  S9: to us through the scriptures so that that one true
• 29:10
  S9: God belief should lead us to how he's ultimately spoken
• 29:14
  S9: at the end through His Son, Jesus Christ. So that's
• 29:17
  S9: a generic belief in God. Doesn't demand anything, require anything.
• 29:20
  S9: So it's never going to move beyond sentimental or an
• 29:24
  S9: intellectual kind of agreement that something called God or someone
• 29:27
  S9: called God exists out there.
• 29:30
  S2: So, Dean, you are a pastor, you have a pastor's heart.
• 29:33
  S2: And obviously you are seeing enough of this and concerned
• 29:36
  S2: enough to write a book about it. I guess the
• 29:38
  S2: big question is what do we do about it? I mean,
• 29:41
  S2: the recognition is one thing, but obviously anyone who cares
• 29:44
  S2: about the heart of the people that they love or
• 29:47
  S2: even their own heart, you have to. We're called to
• 29:50
  S2: examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith. How
• 29:52
  S2: do you reach people who don't think they need to
• 29:55
  S2: be reached?
• 29:56
  S9: Yeah, exactly. And we're not trying to question someone's salvation.
• 29:58
  S9: We're trying to make sure they have it. Those are
• 30:00
  S9: two very different things. And what's happened is, and kind
• 30:03
  S9: of our tribe of evangelicalism, we have made questioning someone's
• 30:08
  S9: salvation in any way, sense or form taboo. When all
• 30:12
  S9: throughout the scriptures, over and over again, we see people
• 30:14
  S9: asking that examine yourselves warnings, making sure again, I'm not
• 30:18
  S9: the judge of a Christian who's a Christian who's not,
• 30:20
  S9: nor do I want to be. The scriptures make it
• 30:22
  S9: clear that if your answer to why you're a Christian
• 30:25
  S9: is something other than the work of Christ on your behalf,
• 30:28
  S9: you might not be. So please take this to our
• 30:30
  S9: listeners as urgency, not judgment. So I think what we
• 30:34
  S9: do about it is we have we can never assume,
• 30:37
  S9: and I'm not trying to oversimplify, but we can never
• 30:39
  S9: assume pastors from the pulpit, Bible study leaders, small group,
• 30:43
  S9: small group leaders. We can't assume the gospel. We can't
• 30:46
  S9: just assume that people understand they're sinners, understand the fact
• 30:49
  S9: that they will give an account for their lives before
• 30:51
  S9: the Lord, and their answer will either be their own resume.
• 30:54
  S9: Matthew seven did not do these things, or it will
• 30:57
  S9: be the righteousness of Jesus, his death and resurrection on
• 31:00
  S9: their behalf. So, I mean, think about that for a minute. Like,
• 31:03
  S9: I can't die for your sins and you can't die
• 31:05
  S9: for mine. Why? We have our own sins to be
• 31:08
  S9: accountable for even one sin we commit separates us from God.
• 31:11
  S9: I don't have the guts to stand before God on
• 31:13
  S9: my own merit, on my own goodness. So. But Jesus,
• 31:18
  S9: the only one who could die on our behalf, is
• 31:19
  S9: the one who has never sinned, and his name is Jesus.
• 31:22
  S9: And in Galatians two he said that Paul writes that
• 31:25
  S9: if righteousness can be attained by keeping the law, then
• 31:30
  S9: Jesus died for nothing. Yeah. So someone out there believes
• 31:33
  S9: they're going to heaven because they're a good person. They're
• 31:35
  S9: screaming without realizing it that the death of Christ was pointless.
• 31:39
  S9: So he's got to be clear. That's the answer as
• 31:41
  S9: clear as can be over and over again.
• 31:44
  S5: Yeah. This is our heartbeat. You may not know this, Dean,
• 31:47
  S5: but this is our heartbeat here. For over a decade,
• 31:50
  S5: we've been illustrating it not only by way of the word,
• 31:54
  S5: but young thunder. Uh, he's one of our team members here.
• 31:57
  S5: He's on the board right now. And I mean, come on,
• 32:01
  S5: quick flyby here. This kid's raised in a pastor's home,
• 32:04
  S5: went to Moody Bible Institute, married a genuine follower of Jesus,
• 32:09
  S5: sweetheart of a girl, and then he was born again. So,
• 32:13
  S5: I mean, Dean, these are real things out there. And,
• 32:16
  S5: you know, here's my contention on this thing. I think Christianity,
• 32:21
  S5: as it's presented in the West is a pretty good
• 32:24
  S5: gig from an earthly standpoint in meaning you can grab
• 32:29
  S5: Jesus with one hand and still hold on to all
• 32:32
  S5: your substitute gods the other. But you're on this broad path,
• 32:36
  S5: and so we've got to almost redefine it. My concern
• 32:39
  S5: is that according to Galatians one, we've watered down or
• 32:44
  S5: diminished what the cross is all about, and the empty tomb,
• 32:48
  S5: and we've deserted God. That's Paul's statement. You have deserted God.
• 32:53
  S5: That's pretty sobering, isn't it, Dean?
• 32:57
  S9: It is. And it comes down to the fact that
• 32:59
  S9: our view of God across America has gotten so small,
• 33:03
  S9: where I could think without even flinching, that he's perfectly
• 33:07
  S9: fine with me. You know, because of my good works
• 33:10
  S9: and good deeds. And what kind of God is that?
• 33:13
  S9: I mean, holy God can't let sin go unpunished, and
• 33:15
  S9: it totally diminishes. Like, why do we celebrate Christmas if
• 33:19
  S9: we think that our own efforts get us to heaven? Like,
• 33:22
  S9: what's the point? Who cares that a baby was born? Yeah, right. Yeah.
• 33:26
  S9: And what makes it so amazing and so miraculous? Like
• 33:28
  S9: these cultural Christian holidays. Christmas, Easter. Like, those are the
• 33:32
  S9: ones that show us how significant it all is. That
• 33:34
  S9: we could not do this on our own. That's only
• 33:36
  S9: possible through Christ, and it diminishes the grace of God.
• 33:40
  S9: So if we're going to have a lower view of
• 33:41
  S9: God and have a Christianity that asks nothing, requires nothing,
• 33:45
  S9: demands nothing, then we're going to have an inflated view
• 33:48
  S9: of ourselves, which will then totally minimize grace. So we're
• 33:53
  S9: so us talking about this like we're on a grace crusade.
• 33:56
  S9: Like we want people to see the grace of God,
• 33:58
  S9: you know, and their need. So we talk about God
• 34:00
  S9: loving us. Well, if I, if I'm this great person
• 34:03
  S9: and I'm fine on my own because of my generic
• 34:05
  S9: beliefs and my hat tip I give to God, then
• 34:08
  S9: who cares that God loves me? I'm a pretty lovable
• 34:10
  S9: guy then, right? And I deserve it. Yeah. But no,
• 34:13
  S9: while we were sinners, Romans five while we were sinners,
• 34:16
  S9: Christ died for us. So a high view of God
• 34:19
  S9: gives us the right view of ourselves, which then helps
• 34:22
  S9: to see how amazing it is that the creator of
• 34:24
  S9: the universe loves us and knows us and shows us grace.
• 34:27
  S2: Dean, and Sarah, our guest right now, he's written the
• 34:29
  S2: book The Unsaved Christian. We've got it for you. Just
• 34:32
  S2: text Dean to 800 555, 7898. There's a link to
• 34:38
  S2: the book and then also an excerpt there as well.
• 34:40
  S2: Just text Dean to 805 557898.
• 34:46
  S1: Your spiritual pit stop to keep you going in the race.
• 34:50
  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 34:52
  S5: Boy, have we got a treat for you today. I
• 34:54
  S5: love this man. And he's with us now. Abdu Murray, speaker, author,
• 34:59
  S5: attorney who specializes in addressing issues where religious faith and
• 35:03
  S5: emerging cultural trends intersect and collide. Abdu, today we're tackling
• 35:10
  S5: the whole issue of real deception of salvation. How many
• 35:15
  S5: people can be kind of in the mix of cultural
• 35:19
  S5: Christianity and not be born again. I'm going to get
• 35:22
  S5: to that. But your story may help set this up
• 35:25
  S5: a little bit. Abdu Murray, come on. How did God
• 35:28
  S5: call you? Out of darkness, my man.
• 35:30
  S10: So actually, the topic is actually apropos to my testimony
• 35:33
  S10: as well, because I was raised as a Shia Muslim.
• 35:36
  S10: There's a lot of different sects within Islam. The two
• 35:39
  S10: biggest different divisions within it are the Shia and the Sunni.
• 35:43
  S10: The Sunni being the majority, Shia being the minority. But
• 35:46
  S10: it's a very large minority, depending on who you ask.
• 35:49
  S10: But the differences are largely political, not actually theological anyway.
• 35:53
  S10: I thought Islam was the bee's knees man. Like, you know,
• 35:55
  S10: you should believe it. It's the cat's whiskers. Everything that
• 35:58
  S10: Islam says is true and everything that everything else says
• 36:00
  S10: that's contradictory to Islam is therefore false. Um, and I
• 36:04
  S10: was raised to believe it's true. And I would have
• 36:05
  S10: none of this whole it's true for you. It's good
• 36:07
  S10: for you. It's true for me. Leave me to my
• 36:09
  S10: own truth and that kind of thing. I would have
• 36:11
  S10: none of that because things are either true or false.
• 36:14
  S10: Things are true. If no one believes them and they're
• 36:16
  S10: still false, even if everyone believes them. Good word. Truth
• 36:19
  S10: and falsity are actually objective. So I started talking to
• 36:23
  S10: people around me who weren't Muslims about why they were
• 36:27
  S10: what they were, and this is why this factors in
• 36:29
  S10: this topic so well, area I grew up in was
• 36:32
  S10: not as diverse, not nearly as diverse ethnically or religiously
• 36:35
  S10: as it is now. So we were sort of exotic.
• 36:37
  S10: We were sort of the dollop of olive oil in
• 36:39
  S10: the pot of rice, you know, around us. So we
• 36:42
  S10: were sort of, you know, oh, who are you? What
• 36:44
  S10: are you Muslims believe this is back before nine over 11.
• 36:46
  S10: So I got to ask people lots of questions. And
• 36:48
  S10: that was the chief way I did my Muslim evangelism.
• 36:51
  S10: It's also the chief way I do my Christian evangelism.
• 36:53
  S10: And the question I would ask people and Christians were
• 36:56
  S10: sort of low hanging fruit. You know, this is back
• 36:58
  S10: in the 80s and the 90s when people said they
• 37:00
  S10: were Christian, even if they didn't mean it.
• 37:02
  S5: Sure.
• 37:02
  S10: So I say, hey, are you a Christian? Yeah, I'm
• 37:04
  S10: a Christian. Well, why? And sort of a quizzical look
• 37:08
  S10: back like, well, you don't these aren't why questions. I mean,
• 37:11
  S10: I just am. We go to the Presbyterian Church or
• 37:13
  S10: the Catholic Church or the Lutheran church or whatever it
• 37:16
  S10: is on Sundays once in a while and on Christmas
• 37:20
  S10: and Easter. So I guess I'm a Presbyterian and I'm like, hey,
• 37:23
  S10: that sounded like a question, not an answer. Are you
• 37:25
  S10: even sure? And they said, well, we don't ask why
• 37:27
  S10: questions on this stuff. You just you just believe what
• 37:30
  S10: you believe because of tradition. I said, that's a terrible
• 37:32
  S10: reason to believe something. I mean, you're telling me that
• 37:34
  S10: you trust the destiny of your eternal soul to a
• 37:37
  S10: worldview someone else thought through. Have you thought it through
• 37:41
  S10: for yourself? And they're like, no, you don't think religious
• 37:45
  S10: faith through it's just a thing you believe. And I said, well,
• 37:48
  S10: as a matter of fact, you do. And I've thought
• 37:50
  S10: yours through for you. Here's 15 reasons why you're wrong.
• 37:53
  S10: So I would engage in these conversations. Well, just to
• 37:56
  S10: make a long story, just a little, a little shorter
• 37:59
  S10: than it actually is because it's quite a bit. There
• 38:01
  S10: were some Christians who actually knew what they were talking about,
• 38:03
  S10: and they were encountering me, and I found them terribly annoying, uh,
• 38:07
  S10: because I, I liked I'm a debater. Yeah. I like
• 38:11
  S10: to mix it up on the issues. I'm not a caller,
• 38:13
  S10: but I am a debater. So I started to study
• 38:16
  S10: Christianity to really understand the worldview so I could poke
• 38:21
  S10: the holes in it. I thought it was going to
• 38:22
  S10: be obviously fraught with holes. Well, two guys came to
• 38:26
  S10: the door of my apartment complex at the University of
• 38:28
  S10: Michigan when I was an undergraduate, and they were going
• 38:31
  S10: door to door. These two Baptist guys were going door
• 38:33
  S10: to door talking about Jesus, and most of the time,
• 38:35
  S10: people would slam the door in their face and say,
• 38:37
  S10: you know, no thanks. But I was like, sweet, you
• 38:40
  S10: guys deliver. This is terrific. And they came into the
• 38:43
  S10: room and I made these two guys, Dave and Pete.
• 38:45
  S10: I remember their names very uncomfortable for hours at a time,
• 38:49
  S10: but they kept coming back to the apartment Thursday after Thursday.
• 38:53
  S10: It was remarkable. So I wanted to knock the faith
• 38:55
  S10: out of these guys. So I pick up a Bible,
• 38:56
  S10: I'm reading the Bible, and I'm looking to find a
• 38:59
  S10: hole in it. And I come across Luke chapter three,
• 39:01
  S10: verses seven and following, where John the Baptist says to
• 39:04
  S10: people who were coming to him, who told you to
• 39:07
  S10: flee from the wrath to come? You know, meaning God's judgment. Yes.
• 39:10
  S10: And then he says, do not even begin to think
• 39:13
  S10: to yourself, you have Abraham as your father. For I
• 39:16
  S10: can tell you that God can raise up children of
• 39:19
  S10: Abraham from the stones. In other words, what he's saying
• 39:21
  S10: is tradition will not save you. Yeah, that's what I
• 39:24
  S10: was saying to Christians is like, your tradition won't save you.
• 39:27
  S10: Truth is what saves. Well, John the Baptist was agreeing
• 39:30
  S10: with me, and I found that terribly annoying because what
• 39:33
  S10: ended up happening was he was challenging me because I
• 39:37
  S10: was telling Christians, your tradition grip is hypocritical, but I
• 39:41
  S10: was the hypocrite because I was really holding on to
• 39:44
  S10: Islam because of tradition. Well, that started a nine year
• 39:48
  S10: journey into the philosophical, theological, scientific, and ultimately existential reasons
• 39:55
  S10: for every worldview I could get my hands on. And
• 39:59
  S10: after that nine years, I discovered that the Christian worldview
• 40:02
  S10: answers the questions of the heart and the mind at
• 40:06
  S10: the same time, in a poetic, beautiful way that nothing
• 40:09
  S10: else does. So that's how I came to faith after
• 40:12
  S10: nine years. It took nine years, though, not because the
• 40:15
  S10: answers were hard to find. They were actually pretty easy
• 40:17
  S10: to find. It took nine years because the answers were
• 40:19
  S10: hard to accept because you had to change your identity.
• 40:21
  S10: And there's something about dying to yourself that is just
• 40:25
  S10: against what we want to do. You know.
• 40:27
  S5: Everything.
• 40:28
  S2: Abdu Murray. Our guest this morning, speaker, author. He's the
• 40:31
  S2: president of Embrace the Truth has spent decades analyzing how
• 40:34
  S2: the major religious and non-religious thought traditions address cultural issues.
• 40:39
  S2: The interesting thing about your testimony is the impact that
• 40:42
  S2: cultural Christians had on you as the people that you encountered,
• 40:47
  S2: and the questions that you asked revealed. Exactly what we've
• 40:50
  S2: been talking about this morning is a cultural Christianity of
• 40:54
  S2: a sense of, I go to church, this is what
• 40:56
  S2: I was raised in. And so sometimes we think that,
• 41:00
  S2: like lowering the bar for people is somehow winsome, will
• 41:04
  S2: get more people into the faith. But it's interesting how
• 41:07
  S2: off putting it was to you that the fact that
• 41:09
  S2: it wasn't it didn't feel thought through, it felt very
• 41:12
  S2: flimsy and that there was simple questions that couldn't be
• 41:15
  S2: answered convinced you how wrong it was. Speak to that
• 41:19
  S2: a little bit.
• 41:20
  S10: Yeah. It's so funny because the efforts to compromise and
• 41:23
  S10: to make things more palatable for me made them less palatable.
• 41:26
  S10: How I put it oftentimes is that a milquetoast, weak
• 41:29
  S10: Christianity that isn't theologically robust nor lived out in your
• 41:33
  S10: life loses that indispensable tang of otherness. Sort of, to quote,
• 41:38
  S10: I think, William Wilberforce. That idea that it's tangy because
• 41:42
  S10: it's not the same as everything else. And they were
• 41:44
  S10: trying to make things the same. They were trying to say, oh,
• 41:47
  S10: we kind of believe the same things. And, and yeah,
• 41:49
  S10: you worship one God. I worship one God, too. And
• 41:52
  S10: that's good enough as long as we worship one God. Um,
• 41:55
  S10: and I'm like, well, what does that God like say? Well,
• 41:58
  S10: we believe he's a trinity. Can you explain that? Well,
• 42:01
  S10: it's a big mystery. And no, you can't really explain it.
• 42:03
  S10: I'm like, well, if you can't, can you define it?
• 42:04
  S10: Can you tell me what it is? Well, not really.
• 42:07
  S10: I'm like, well, hold on, if you can't define it,
• 42:09
  S10: then how can you defend it? Sounds to me like
• 42:12
  S10: you're a confused theist, and I was good at convincing Christians,
• 42:16
  S10: these cultural Christians, that they were wrong.
• 42:18
  S11: Yes. Wow.
• 42:19
  S10: And they started to talk, to look at my worldview
• 42:22
  S10: as something that they should actually embrace. The point is,
• 42:26
  S10: is that a friend of mine once said this. The
• 42:29
  S10: biggest problem in the world is not radical Islam or
• 42:31
  S10: radical atheism or radical, you know, whatever you want to say.
• 42:35
  S10: It's not that it's tepid Christianity that's the problem.
• 42:39
  S11: Yes.
• 42:40
  S10: And so this cultural Christianity, which is merely cultural, I
• 42:43
  S10: think cultural Christianity can be a good thing when it's
• 42:46
  S10: infused with a deep sense of what the Christian faith
• 42:49
  S10: actually is. But when it's merely cultural.
• 42:51
  S11: Yes.
• 42:52
  S10: When it's merely an identity marker, what's the. Who cares?
• 42:55
  S10: And it's begging to be ignored.
• 42:57
  S5: Speak to this reality. Abdou Abdu Murray, our guest right now.
• 43:01
  S5: Something happened 250 years ago during the Great Awakenings that
• 43:05
  S5: really caused this consternation for C.H. Spurgeon, commonly called Decisionism.
• 43:11
  S5: Prior to that time, there were no altar calls. Finney uh,
• 43:16
  S5: I think well, meaning let's be fair. Well meaning saw
• 43:19
  S5: a great harvest of souls and wanted to almost expedite
• 43:22
  S5: this altar calls became popular, raising hands in the air
• 43:26
  S5: when no one is looking. Ooh, uh, became popularized, those
• 43:31
  S5: kind of things. It became a dilution of the hardest truths.
• 43:39
  S5: Unless a man will deny himself, take up his cross
• 43:41
  S5: and follow me. That is the gospel. And now we've
• 43:45
  S5: interpreted passages like that as that's who. That's high road
• 43:49
  S5: Christianity according to Jesus. That's the beginning of Christianity. How
• 43:55
  S5: destructive has Decisionism been in the last 250 years?
• 43:59
  S10: Yeah. And I think that there is a balance we
• 44:02
  S10: have to strike with regard to this, because I do
• 44:03
  S10: think there is a danger to it. And I actually
• 44:06
  S10: witnessed this several times when I wasn't a Christian and
• 44:08
  S10: I was on the verge, um, but also at the
• 44:11
  S10: time when I had become a Christian and people were
• 44:15
  S10: making decisions and I was saying, hey, what was that like?
• 44:17
  S10: What happened? What's going on? And then three weeks later,
• 44:19
  S10: it was as if it didn't happen. Yeah, it was, yeah,
• 44:22
  S10: I was, I was sort of emotional at the time
• 44:24
  S10: and I needed something and they sort of excised some
• 44:27
  S10: demons from their lives and now they're kind of moving on.
• 44:31
  S10: Having said that, though, I mean, you have the great
• 44:33
  S10: altar calls where there were real decisions being made or
• 44:37
  S10: if there weren't, at least the message itself was a true,
• 44:41
  S10: authentic gospel where you have the Billy Graham's of the
• 44:43
  S10: world who were talking about sin as sin. And I
• 44:46
  S10: think some of the destruction that's happened is one, this
• 44:49
  S10: decision has been has been couched in terms of an
• 44:52
  S10: emotional manipulation. I remember going to one church service and
• 44:55
  S10: it was an obvious emotional manipulation. And I thought to myself,
• 44:59
  S10: and it wasn't because they were being mean or manipulative
• 45:02
  S10: in the most nefarious sense, but it was this if
• 45:06
  S10: I gin up enough emotion and fear, then I can
• 45:09
  S10: get you to become a Christian. And that might last
• 45:11
  S10: for some and for others it might not. And then
• 45:13
  S10: they actually begin to see Christianity as a manipulation tactic.
• 45:17
  S10: For others, though, I saw that this decisionism ended up
• 45:21
  S10: making the decision. The only thing about Christianity.
• 45:24
  S11: Yes.
• 45:24
  S10: Um, so I'll give you two examples, two quotes that
• 45:27
  S10: I think are really, really beautiful. My pastor was talking
• 45:30
  S10: with someone about the nature of the Christian life, and
• 45:34
  S10: this person kept on struggling with and kept on saying like,
• 45:37
  S10: I know Christianity is not about good works. I know
• 45:39
  S10: Christianity is not about good works. And after a while,
• 45:41
  S10: my pastor said, I'm going to stop you there. You
• 45:44
  S10: keep on saying that that's wrong. Salvation is not about works.
• 45:48
  S11: Amen.
• 45:49
  S10: Christianity is all about good works. It's about living your
• 45:52
  S10: life in this way, in gratitude for the salvation you've
• 45:55
  S10: been given. And so that reminds me of the quote
• 45:57
  S10: from Dallas Willard, who said that there are far too
• 46:01
  S10: many vampire Christians. A vampire Christian is someone who wants
• 46:05
  S10: Jesus only for his blood and doesn't actually want Jesus
• 46:08
  S10: to be Lord of their life. Because what does Paul say?
• 46:12
  S10: The decision to become a Christian is extremely easy, but
• 46:14
  S10: you have to understand what it is you're getting into.
• 46:16
  S10: And so when I do an evangelistic meeting, when I
• 46:19
  S10: do it in front of skeptics, when I do it
• 46:20
  S10: at a church with skeptics are invited. When I invite
• 46:23
  S10: them to Christ, what I'm telling them is, and I
• 46:25
  S10: want to tell them what I had to face. I'm
• 46:28
  S10: not asking you to do something easy. I'm not asking
• 46:30
  S10: you to solve all your problems. I'm not asking you
• 46:33
  S10: to have an emotional reaction. What I'm asking you for
• 46:36
  S10: is to think through with the Holy Spirit, guide you
• 46:39
  S10: into convincing you that you need a Savior because you're
• 46:42
  S10: a sinner just like me, and that that sin is serious.
• 46:45
  S10: It's not brokenness, only it's sinfulness. And following that, now
• 46:51
  S10: you have to follow him as a Lord because Paul says,
• 46:53
  S10: confess with your mouth that Christ is Lord and that
• 46:56
  S10: God raised him from the dead. That Lord part pretty important.
• 46:59
  S10: That doesn't mean he's Lord of this moment. He's Lord
• 47:01
  S10: of your life. And that's the decision you're making.
• 47:04
  S2: You know, I think about the kind of cultural Trends,
• 47:07
  S2: and one that I think I'd love for you to
• 47:10
  S2: speak to, is this idea that faith is merely to
• 47:13
  S2: be exercised privately, and that nobody's faith is really offensive
• 47:18
  S2: to anybody else, so long as there's only private expressions
• 47:22
  S2: of it. And there's a lot of people now who
• 47:25
  S2: even believe that attempting to proselytize or share your faith
• 47:29
  S2: is offensive, that how dare you try to take your
• 47:32
  S2: personal truth, which I'm good with, and try to force
• 47:36
  S2: it on me. And obviously kind of just paraphrasing cultural trends,
• 47:39
  S2: what do you say? How do we push back? We don't.
• 47:42
  S2: The answer is not the person you know, the guy
• 47:44
  S2: with the megaphone on the street corner saying, you're going
• 47:47
  S2: to hell necessarily. Although I'm not saying that some people
• 47:50
  S2: aren't called to that, but how do we walk on
• 47:52
  S2: that high ridge where, yes, there's some private aspects of faith,
• 47:56
  S2: but the idea that to speak of the name of
• 47:59
  S2: Jesus publicly, or to try to convince somebody that he
• 48:02
  S2: should be their Lord and Savior too, is offensive.
• 48:05
  S10: Yeah. So a couple of things. In fact, one poll
• 48:08
  S10: showed that amongst certain Christians, they thought it wasn't even offensive.
• 48:12
  S10: They thought it was immoral to try to convert somebody,
• 48:14
  S10: which is just amazing to me as somebody who is
• 48:16
  S10: so grateful someone tried to do that with me.
• 48:19
  S11: Yes.
• 48:19
  S10: Over someone's plural. Tried to do that with me and
• 48:22
  S10: it worked because thank God for them. So here's my
• 48:24
  S10: response to that. First, oftentimes the people who say you
• 48:28
  S10: shouldn't proselytize because it's offensive to try to say that
• 48:31
  S10: your truth is one truth. Or, um, even if I
• 48:34
  S10: believe this, there's only one truth that's offensive to do it.
• 48:37
  S10: Those people are often the people who have the most
• 48:39
  S10: bumper stickers on the back of their car telling you
• 48:41
  S10: their opinions. Um, and to me, it's like, gosh, you're
• 48:45
  S10: trying so hard to convince me of your political opinion
• 48:49
  S10: or your social opinion and you have the little, uh,
• 48:52
  S10: creed outside your, your door. Your, your house that sticks
• 48:56
  S10: in the ground and you tell everybody your beliefs in
• 48:58
  S10: that house. Yet I should keep my faith private. Nothing
• 49:00
  S10: else is kept private. Why is faith an exception? It's
• 49:03
  S10: a bizarre exception. And then thirdly, my response to that is,
• 49:07
  S10: so you're saying it's wrong and offensive for me to
• 49:09
  S10: try to convince somebody of a position. And yet when.
• 49:13
  S10: So you're trying to tell me you're trying to convince
• 49:15
  S10: me that I shouldn't believe Jesus when he says, go
• 49:18
  S10: ye therefore into all the world and making disciples of
• 49:20
  S10: all men, preaching in the name of the father, son,
• 49:22
  S10: and the Holy Spirit, and baptizing them in the father,
• 49:25
  S10: the son, the Holy Spirit. So you're telling me that
• 49:28
  S10: it's wrong for me to try to convince somebody of
• 49:30
  S10: some spiritual truth, yet you're trying to convince me of
• 49:33
  S10: the wrongness of that. So why do you get a pass?
• 49:37
  S10: It's offensive to me that you're taking my deeply held
• 49:39
  S10: beliefs and saying it's offensive.
• 49:41
  S11: Yeah.
• 49:42
  S10: So now what? Now how do we go? Everyone's always
• 49:45
  S10: trying to convince everybody of something. We're always trying to
• 49:47
  S10: do that, even if we're trying to convince people that
• 49:49
  S10: you shouldn't convince people, you're trying to convince people. There's
• 49:52
  S10: no escaping it. That's the nature of human interaction. And
• 49:56
  S10: when you lose that, you lose the fabric of why
• 49:59
  S10: a society even should be engaged in. There's color and vividness.
• 50:03
  S10: In contrast, I love the fact. One thing that. As
• 50:06
  S10: Guinness once said, he says that contrast is the mother
• 50:09
  S10: of clarity.
• 50:10
  S11: Yes.
• 50:10
  S10: And so trying to convince somebody brings clarity. They might
• 50:14
  S10: reject what you say. Okay. No one's putting a gun
• 50:16
  S10: to your head, at least not in this country. But
• 50:19
  S10: reject it and then move on. It's okay. We're not
• 50:21
  S10: going to be we're not going to storm the castle.
• 50:24
  S10: We're just going to try to use persuasive words in
• 50:26
  S10: a life well lived.
• 50:27
  S5: Abdu Murray, cutting through ambiguity with a really sharp knife.
• 50:36
  S5: And we appreciate you, brother. Uh, all things Abdu Murray.
• 50:40
  S5: Get to Abdu site. He has got some amazing content here,
• 50:44
  S5: doesn't he, Ali?
• 50:45
  S2: Yeah. The the ministry's called embrace the truth. So just
• 50:47
  S2: text embrace to 800 555, 7898. Embrace to 805 557898.
• 50:56
  S1: Helping you take the next step in your walk with Jesus.
• 50:59
  S5: God longs for us today.
• 51:02
  S12: To seek him and ask him to move in ways
• 51:05
  S12: that we never could.
• 51:06
  S1: You're listening to Carl and Crew.
• 51:08
  S5: The first documented gospel that we find is the gospel
• 51:11
  S5: of Mark. And it's only. We only have to get
• 51:14
  S5: a few verses in verse 14 of chapter one after John.
• 51:17
  S5: This is John the Baptist was arrested. Jesus came into
• 51:20
  S5: Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God, ready for it, and saying,
• 51:26
  S5: the time is fulfilled. The kingdom of God is at hand.
• 51:30
  S5: Repent and believe in the gospel. Now, this is great
• 51:35
  S5: because it. It helps remedy this issue that even the
• 51:40
  S5: demons believe. James. Right. And they tremble.
• 51:43
  S2: Yeah.
• 51:44
  S5: So what you see Jesus saying right from the jump
• 51:47
  S5: is this is not about you agreeing on the deity
• 51:52
  S5: of Jesus, the goodness of Jesus, the fact that he
• 51:54
  S5: came as a Messiah. You can check all those boxes
• 51:57
  S5: and still not have salvation. And we're tackling this one
• 52:01
  S5: today because it's a big deal. This whole issue, this
• 52:06
  S5: whole week of first principles, getting it started rightly at
• 52:10
  S5: the foundation is vital. And we know this because we
• 52:14
  S5: just covered this ground with Dean and Sarah some time ago.
• 52:18
  S5: And now Abdu Murray. Listen, the gospel is not about
• 52:23
  S5: slipping a hand in the air. It's not even about
• 52:26
  S5: the emotion of a moment. There must come a time
• 52:30
  S5: when we say, I not only believe in Jesus, but
• 52:34
  S5: I believe in such a manner that I have turned
• 52:38
  S5: around from the direction that I'm going. And I'm going
• 52:42
  S5: a brand new way, meaning I give all that I
• 52:45
  S5: am full control over to Jesus Christ, you might say. Really?
• 52:49
  S5: Is that so? Yeah. That's salvation. We find it in
• 52:54
  S5: Matthew 25 parable of the talents that a lot of
• 52:58
  S5: us look at that passage and what we've done with
• 53:01
  S5: it is turned it into a passage to raise money
• 53:03
  S5: for a building campaign. That isn't what it's there for.
• 53:07
  S5: It's not to tell people to stop having a scarcity mindset.
• 53:11
  S5: It's a warning of Jesus that those who are truly
• 53:15
  S5: born again, all that they have, whether whether little or
• 53:19
  S5: a lot, all the resources, all the time, the talent,
• 53:22
  S5: the treasure, they so love God, and they're so certain
• 53:28
  S5: of his return that they're saying, all that I am
• 53:33
  S5: is at your disposal. I'm investing it all. You might say, well, Carl,
• 53:38
  S5: I mean, look, I'm, I'm, I've got a savings account
• 53:43
  S5: and I've got a 401 K. No, no, listen, it's
• 53:47
  S5: that in your heart, soul, mind and strength. If God
• 53:52
  S5: were to say to you like the rich young ruler,
• 53:55
  S5: may I all of it. You would. you would say.
• 54:00
  S5: But of course, because salvation is snatching us from the
• 54:05
  S5: clutches of darkness and eternal death into life. And the
• 54:10
  S5: evidence of a truly regenerate person is the ability to say, hey,
• 54:16
  S5: you're coming again. I want you to know my life's
• 54:20
  S5: for you. All that I have is yours. And it's
• 54:24
  S5: more than just words, isn't it, Ali?
• 54:26
  S2: It is. And, you know, the interesting thing is that
• 54:28
  S2: we have so normalized cultural Christianity. And I think that
• 54:33
  S2: this is true across the world. So I mean, and
• 54:35
  S2: we just heard from Abdu Murray. There are people who
• 54:38
  S2: consider themselves culturally Muslim or culturally Hindu, where the predominant
• 54:45
  S2: world religion for that part of the world that you
• 54:48
  S2: have people who are very zealous and committed, and then
• 54:51
  S2: you have people who are pretty kind of culturally sort
• 54:54
  S2: of apathetic, where they would maybe adopt it because that
• 54:57
  S2: seems what's normal. And so the interesting thing is we have,
• 55:00
  S2: I think, in the West developed a distaste for what
• 55:04
  S2: seems like religious extremism, regardless of whether or not it's
• 55:08
  S2: actually true. We kind of put it in this big
• 55:10
  S2: bucket that to be too sold out for something to
• 55:13
  S2: be too kind of is a negative thing. Would you agree?
• 55:19
  S5: Yeah, I would. I think that's an interesting take. I
• 55:22
  S5: would say that. I would say that any it's interesting
• 55:29
  S5: how Satan uses that, right? So he can look at
• 55:32
  S5: extremism in anything and create a distaste. Right. And I
• 55:38
  S5: the interesting thing about biblical Christianity, what it means to
• 55:42
  S5: be a disciple of Christ is extreme in the sense
• 55:47
  S5: that you've extremely realized I'm a sinner.
• 55:51
  S2: Yeah. I mean, it's biblical. Christianity is extreme.
• 55:54
  S5: Yeah. It's extreme. I'm extremely realized I'm a sinner. And
• 55:59
  S5: let me give you the gospel right now. I'm the
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  S5: biggest problem with my life. See, the beautiful thing with
• 56:06
  S5: biblical Christianity is that it extremely sees I'm the problem.
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  S5: Not my dad, not my mom, not the culture. I'm
• 56:16
  S5: the biggest, the biggest impediment toward my life is me.
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  S5: Start with that. Secondly, Jesus is going a totally different
• 56:26
  S5: direction than I'm going in right now. I'm on this
• 56:29
  S5: broad path and he's going that way. In fact, he's
• 56:33
  S5: behind me. And it's such a full abandonment of self
• 56:38
  S5: to the Lordship of Jesus Christ that we say, take
• 56:41
  S5: my life. I give it all to you. See, the
• 56:44
  S5: problem with walking down an aisle? A lot of people
• 56:46
  S5: have walked down an aisle, but they've never followed Jesus.
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  S5: Being honest.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S5: You can walk down an aisle and not be a
• 56:54
  S5: follower of Jesus. You're just on a jaunt. You're not
• 57:00
  S5: following the savior of the world. You can lift a
• 57:02
  S5: hand in the air and not be born again. Guys,
• 57:05
  S5: I did it. Jonathan did it. Yep. You can. You
• 57:11
  S5: can be really good and not be born again. Ali
• 57:16
  S5: did it. She's the goody two shoes around here. You are. You.
• 57:22
  S5: You say that, right? I mean, if there was a
• 57:24
  S5: weakness for you, it's that you had the boxes checked. Yeah, right. Sure.
• 57:29
  S5: And you're flirting with danger for eternity.
• 57:33
  S3: Yeah.
• 57:33
  S5: And it's a dark deception. And you know what's amazing?
• 57:37
  S5: We're talking right now, and some of you might be saying,
• 57:40
  S5: you know what? I've recognized that I've got problems in
• 57:43
  S5: my life, but I've never just admitted to God I'm
• 57:47
  S5: a sinner. I'm my biggest problem. I need a savior.
• 57:50
  S5: And by the way, when you can come to the
• 57:52
  S5: point where you realize I'm I can never reach good
• 57:57
  S5: enough for God. Only he can do it. That'll be enough.
• 58:04
  S5: But only that will be enough. So I'm appealing to
• 58:08
  S5: you right now. If you've never given your life to Jesus, really,
• 58:13
  S5: if you've never been truly born again, the time is fulfilled.
• 58:18
  S5: Jesus said, the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent
• 58:22
  S5: and believe the gospel. And the gospel is this. You
• 58:25
  S5: can't do diddly squat to save your soul. Only Jesus can.
• 58:28
  S5: All of your fancy footwork, all of your church attendance,
• 58:32
  S5: all your good works, all your. I'm not sinning as
• 58:35
  S5: bad as that guy can't save you because all have
• 58:38
  S5: sinned and fall short of the glory of God and
• 58:40
  S5: that includes you. And if you want to give your
• 58:45
  S5: life to Jesus today, it's a cry of the soul
• 58:48
  S5: in the spirit of God's at work in you to
• 58:50
  S5: do it. This isn't even you choosing him. He's choosing you.
• 58:54
  S5: I know it's a crazy thing, but if the Spirit
• 58:57
  S5: of God is cutting through the fog of deception right now,
• 59:00
  S5: give your life to him right now and just say
• 59:04
  S5: this right now, Jesus, I repent. I'm turning my mind,
• 59:11
  S5: my heart, my soul, everything around and over to you.
• 59:14
  S5: I've never given you all that I am. But I'm
• 59:17
  S5: a sinner. I need a savior. You got to save
• 59:20
  S5: all of me, not part of me. And I give
• 59:22
  S5: you my life today. And if that's you, if that's
• 59:25
  S5: the cry of your soul. For the first time ever,
• 59:27
  S5: text the word new. We're going to help you in
• 59:29
  S5: your first steps of Jesus. Just text the word new
• 59:32
  S5: right now. One word new to 800 555, 7898. I
• 59:38
  S5: gotta believe the Spirit of God is at work in
• 59:40
  S5: many of you through that Abdu Murray interview and what
• 59:42
  S5: we're saying right now. Text new to 805 557898 and
• 59:49
  S5: use everything in those links. We want to help you
• 59:52
  S5: take your next steps with Jesus.