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89: Building Relationships Through Grit w/ Kathryn Gordon · Harder Than Life

• 0:00
  I'm Kelly Siegel, and this is Harder Than Life, a podcast about self-love, self-awareness, business, and health. We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple, practical advice you can start using today. Let's get living.
• 0:14
  Welcome back to the Heart and Life podcast where resilience meets reality. I'm your host, Kelly Siegel, and today I'm thrilled to have with us Catherine Gordon, a luminary in the world of motivational speaking, a best-selling author, and the powerhouse behind the Catherine for Real podcast. Catherine is here to share her incredible journey and profound insights from her book, Relationship Grit.
• 0:38
  Get ready to be inspired by her stories of triumph, her strategies for staying positive through life's toughest challenges, and her unique perspective on turning adversity into opportunity. Let's dive in discovery, how to embrace the hard with the one and only Catherine Gordon. Thank you for having me, Kelly. How are you? My dear, we should have hit record five minutes ago when we were just reminiscing about the last event and...
• 1:05
  I love the Gordon family and they are led by you.
• 1:11
  And your daughter is amazing. Your son is awesome. And obviously, the aforementioned John Gordon is just, if I could go back and recreate my life, but then there wouldn't be harder than life, I would be born in your family. The love and the attention and the, I just got to go back to the love that you feel from you guys. And it's all in this relationship, Greg. Because at first you think, oh, they're the perfect family. Uh-uh.
• 1:40
  It's in here. People read this relationship grid. So you are your own person. And I want to highlight that today. Catherine, how would you describe the core message of your brand and the impact on your audience?
• 1:56
  Yeah, that's a good question and one that I'm weaving through right now to get even more clarity because it really started out, I always like to say I'm in my second act. When I met John, we were both quote unquote movers and shakers in Atlanta.
• 2:17
  I had my own gig going. John had his. And when we got together, we started doing, of course, a lot of events together. And there came a point where we really had to decide whose event was.
• 2:33
  was more important. What, what I was doing was more important or he was doing was more important. And I have to tell you, Kelly, I came from an alcoholic family that, um, you know, my father was Navy and he was on the road all the time. He was very much a womanizer. And, um, I watched my mother live that for years.
• 2:57
  the whole time we were growing up. And I always said to myself, I'm never, ever going to be in a relationship where I am totally subservient to subservient to the man, or that I don't have my own money. So that was kind of my thing, my drive, like I'm going to be successful. I'm going to have a lot of money. Cause I didn't want to be like my mom. Cause I, at one point said, mom, why do you stay? And she goes, where am I going to go? I don't have any money. So that being said,
• 3:27
  Life is funny. God is funny. John and I got to this point where we had to decide which event was more important. And I...
• 3:39
  Really kind of sat with that and thought, you know what? I'm going to get behind this man. I'm going to get behind him and I'm going to support him. And I got to tell you, my friends were like, and we weren't even married yet, but my friends were like, oh my gosh. Because, you know, I was definitely, I was the bull, like I was going for it. But I did. I did. John really helped me.
• 4:02
  soften up, like kind of bring that feminine side out to me because I was so hardcore. Anyway, fast forward, we had our children. And by the way, I don't regret that decision for a minute of getting behind him because the one thing I have to say about John and anybody listening, if you are in a new relationship, a young relationship, if you have young children, um, John never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,
• 4:29
  made me feel less than in the position that I was in of staying home with the kids. He didn't micromanage me and never commented or said anything about it was his money, not our money.
• 4:46
  And that was a really big deal. I don't know if that's a Jewish thing, you know, like they always say like Jewish men are so good with that, but that's the way he did it. And so, and by the way, now he's a follower of Christ, but that's a whole other story. And so, you know, that's the way we, we rolled. And so fast forward.
• 5:06
  I raised our kids, we raised our kids and I started to embark on what I call my second act. And just to give you a little back history to, in addition to the sales and all the things that I was doing, I was also a model. I did a lot of bikini modeling, um, runway type stuff for more athletics. I wasn't like the long Sanui and, um,
• 5:30
  and commercial work. And so all of that had kind of been put to the wayside too. So as I'm embarking on my second act, I just started getting ideas for things. And it is funny how God just positioned stuff because things just kept coming in where I'm like, oh, which is also how I decided to start my podcast. And it was during COVID. So as you know, my podcast is called Catherine for Real.
• 6:01
  have a, I have a habit of saying, saying the truth, which sometimes gets me in trouble, but you know, you're getting the real deal with me. So anyway, all that to say that, you know, that that's how everything came about. And then the other thing that happened and the reason that I wrote relationship, relationship grit, John and I wrote the book. Yeah.
• 6:25
  was during that time also, I'm at a grocery store. Well, I was at the grocery store. I'd be at Target, wherever I was, and I would run into these women in my community who were having issues. And I don't know why they felt like they had to open up or share things with me, but they would. And it was always, they were different stories and scenarios, but what I started to see was a real similarity between,
• 6:51
  in what the core issues were. And so I finally went home one day. I said, John, we've got to, we've got to write a book or something. It started out kind of as a Facebook blog and it went viral. And that's when I knew, okay, this is information that people are starving for. And that's how I wrote relationship grit. Have you read it yet, Kelly?
• 7:13
  I've read it when it first, listen, no offense. All John's books, when they first come out, I read them immediately. The only reason I haven't read the new one that the difficult conversations is because I'm waiting for Amy to come on the podcast and I'm going to have it read it, read it. But I read this. I was just looking through. I read it when it first came out. So what are we a year, two years?
• 7:33
  Oh, no. It came out during COVID. We actually wrote it right before COVID. And it ended up being, honestly, the saving grace for a lot of couples. We ended up going on the Today Show and talking on it because all of a sudden, people were home and together 24-7. Right?
• 7:55
  And that includes me and John. Like John Gordon, the year before COVID hit, had done 89 speaking events. He wasn't home that much. So then all of a sudden, here we were, COVID, and he was home all the time. And I got to tell you, there were definitely times I wanted to kill him. So I'm not kidding when I tell you that we use the principles in our book for our own relationship during that time.
• 8:25
  I'm going to ask you questions on it. So I, this is why I was looking down. I apologize because I read it during COVID we're three years later and I always peg pick pieces back. If you look, I got so many pages. I,
• 8:41
  pegged back of that I wanted to ask you, but I have a bunch of questions. So I, but first and foremost, guys go out and get relationship. Great. What's so cool about it is it goes each perspective, John goes and, and, and Catherine goes, and then Catherine goes and John goes. So you get both sides and they hold nothing back. They go deep, but I, I just remembered you guys are beautiful. And I remember there's a big, it was just a big anniversary. So,
• 9:09
  What was it? 27 years this last week. 27 years on Friday. Guys, I just wanted to say congratulations. I love you guys very much. I realized when you were answering that first question, why I love you, you specifically you, because you're what I've always been searching for in my life. And I've recently found her. And when you have a queen right by your side, who is amazing.
• 9:38
  And you're exactly what I was looking for or that needed to find me. Someone who is tough as nails, not going to take your shit, but when you need it, will be there for you when you're feeling a little less than. And I see that yin and yang, and it's throughout this book.
• 9:59
  that you hear that. So we're going to deep dive into that. But I want to ask you one question right off the bat is, what is the key takeaway that you want that you hope the readers gain after reading this?
• 10:13
  your relationship is worth fighting for. There's several things in there. That's why I had to pause for a minute. But, but, but if you had to ask me like the one key takeaway, the grass isn't greener on the other side, right? Now, when I say that, I always say, make sure, or, or I'm not talking about like, if somebody is physically, um,
• 10:34
  Or, you know, verbally abusive, anything like that. That's not what I'm talking about. But if you just aren't happy because they're not doing the dishes or they're not pulling their weight on something or, you know, just these stupid things that we can get into, you know, the habit of complaining to each other about.
• 10:55
  that's worth fighting for. And that's all about trying to, to work it out together. And that's why that grip framework really kind of spells it out for you. You know, I'll never forget when, when I was raising my kids and John was traveling all the time, I had a woman that I went to the gym with a lot and we would both train in the gym and put our kids in the kid zone. And,
• 11:18
  And I would listen to her the way she would speak about her husband, the way she would speak to her husband. And I just, it used to make me so sad because she never wanted to make him feel great because she was really worried. She didn't feel good about herself, right? She was really worried about him leaving her.
• 11:41
  And I even talk about in my book, Relationship Grit, I didn't really do that. There were times when I did feel insecure or I would be worried. But one huge, huge epiphany happened to me. One day I was standing in the kitchen. The kids were late for school. I was screaming, trying to make lunches. John comes sauntering in the kitchen in this really, really nice suit. And he looked so handsome.
• 12:11
  I wanted to cut them down. Like I, I felt so bad about myself in that moment. I was disheveled. You know, I wasn't doing my job very well. The kids were late. The lunches weren't made, but it was like something just hit me. And I looked at them and I said, John Gordon, you better watch yourself. You are looking mighty fine in that suit. Those late, the ladies are going to be digging you. And you know what, Kelly,
• 12:37
  He just looked at me and he got this huge smile on his face. Like I realized like, oh my gosh, like he needs to feel wanted. He needs to feel like,
• 12:52
  Like, I think he's good looking, you know, he needs to get complimented, not always, you know, torn down, which I wasn't, but I'm just saying it was a real epiphany for me that in relationships, I think a lot of times we stopped doing that or we don't do that. Like I said, because you're really worried about them leaving you. And in that case with my friend, she continued to cut her husband down. And unfortunately, I really felt like it was the demise of the relationship.
• 13:22
  I want you to know that you're, you are beautiful, not only on the outside, but on the inside. I just, you're, you're, I'm a huge fan of yours. You were about to go down an angle and I, I see that John did the four C's, but I thought it was you. What, you were going to give me an acronym.
• 13:42
  Well, the four C's, I will tell you, the four C's are definitely John's. Those originated way back. I want to say in his book, you went in the locker room first.
• 13:56
  But the truth is, is those four C's are, are, they span all relationships. Rather it's through your work relationships, your intimate relationships. And so we knew we had to carry them into our book as well, because we,
• 14:15
  All great relationships have great communication, right? So that's the first C. And so, and I like to say, this is a good thing for your listeners too. Ask your partner on a scale of one to 10, how well do I communicate with you? And then ask them what would make it a 10?
• 14:42
  You're going to get so much. I mean, the insight you're going to get on that is gold. And you can use that to keep building. And listen, things change. I got to tell you, I'm a huge communicator. I always have been. And I've had to kind of force John, not force, but you know, like I get stuff out of them. It's also, I think why I have a great relationship with my kids because I always was communicating with them. But not everybody is. And that's okay.
• 15:12
  You can learn ways to communicate like things that work for you. Something that helped with John, it would be really, really hard when he would walk in the door to get anything out of him. But if I said, hey, let's go for a walk.
• 15:28
  Once he started moving. So it's really kind of about a kind of like finding your sweet spot with your partner. You know, it might be sitting on the back porch drinking tea, but communication is so important because that is what helps you feel connected, which is the next C, right? And so you have to communicate to connect. And then that third C, I'll just go through them real quick, just because you brought them up is commitment.
• 15:57
  And that commitment, when you feel that commitment from your partner, you've earned their trust. And it's kind of like when John, when I made the decision to give up my career, to get behind my husband, he knew I was committed.
• 16:16
  And he gave that commitment back. And I got to tell you, that made us really, really strong. So whatever that looks like in a relationship for you. And then the fourth C is care. Because when you're committed, it shows that you care. And these sound like, oh, well, yeah. Yeah.
• 16:36
  Those are all, yeah. But you would be surprised how many couples you talk to that they're not operating strong on those four principles. And if you don't have number one, it just falls from there. Four Cs. That is priceless. I was going to ask you, what's the key piece of advice?
• 16:56
  from relationship grit that couples can implement today to regular relationship. You just answered it. Use the four C's communicate, communicate and communicate some more. And not just talk. Communicate means listen, listen,
• 17:12
  God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. So I have a specific relationship grit question. I put it in here. It said, relationship grit addresses the balance between personal growth and growing together as a couple. On page 54, you discuss our purpose has to be greater than your challenges and your vision has to be greater than your circumstances. That is fire. Will you provide an example of this? Yeah.
• 17:42
  So I'll just tell you about our family. So, and, and, and again, for anybody that doesn't know the whole history or hasn't read our book yet, we, when I'm, when I'm sharing this stuff, just know we didn't come out of the gate with these, you know, amazing things that we were doing in our relationship. Our relationship was not good at all.
• 18:04
  all. John Gordon was not a great husband. I was suffering. I threatened to leave him. There's a whole story within a story in that. So when I'm sharing this with you, I am not coming from a place of superiority. I am coming from a place of, I have walked through fire to get to this place where I can actually share it with others. And so I'm,
• 18:27
  One of the things that we started doing, and we didn't do this until the kids were in middle school, because of course, like I said, our relationship was not great early on. When we decided we were really going to stay together, I'd threatened to leave John. He had actually dropped the bomb about something that I didn't know that had happened in our relationship. It's in the book, read it. Right, right. It's in the book. And I was definitely headed out the door. I was going to divorce him. And when I finally decided, you know what?
• 18:56
  I do love this man. We're going to work on this. So we started having family meetings and I don't care if it's just you and your partner, if it's, you know, you and the, you know, it doesn't have to be a family. It could be just you two as a couple, but I call them family meetings and you get together once a week. And one of you brings some kind of
• 19:21
  whether it's scripture, if you are into that, if it's something like some kind of devotional, anything that is uplifting and is gonna get your head right or get you thinking about something. So John would come to the table every Sunday and he would read,
• 19:38
  something motivational. And sometimes it was from him because if you follow John Gordon, you know, he sends out a positive newsletter every Monday with a lot of gold in it. So it was one of those. Now I got to tell you, these meetings were so hard to pull together. It wasn't like when we said family meeting, everybody just jumped up and went to come sit at the table. The kids were.
• 19:59
  were fighting or they'd be screaming or somebody didn't want to do that. They were on their foot, whatever it was. So you have to fight for them. That is a key part I want to tell you. Don't give up just because it's hard. You fight for those family meetings. I promise you, you will not regret it.
• 20:16
  So we would sit down and it would always start the same. You know, the kids would kind of be bickering back and forth. And again, sometimes I didn't want to sit down either. So, you know, there's full disclosure there. But John would read something motivational or something thought provoking. And then we'd go around the table and kind of talk about how it might apply to something in our life. And the weirdest, coolest thing is nine times out of ten, seven.
• 20:41
  something he read correlated to something each of us had going on, some kind of thought process. Maybe it was even a struggle at school and we would talk it through and we would all remind each other. We have a family mission statement. So on January 1st, this is a lot of information I'm giving you, but on, on, on new year's,
• 21:03
  Every year we would pick a family mission statement. I mean, excuse me, that was forever. The every new year was actually our one word. Okay. Our family mission statement did not change. Sorry, Kelly. I didn't mean to confuse you there. Our family mission statement has not changed. And it is the Gordons honor and serve God in all that they do.
• 21:24
  So through the course of even going around the table, if, you know, somebody would start fighting with another, you know, we might stop and go, are you honoring and serving God? Is that honoring and serving God? But the, the word, the one word was one that we picked once a year. And then we'd ask, how was, how's your word going? Like one year, my son was a tennis player and one year his word was consistent. Cole, how's your, how's your word going, going this week? Okay.
• 21:53
  Consistent meant like trying to have a great serve, consistently hit a great serve. Did you practice that? No. All right. So that's what you need to do this week. And so we'd kind of each go through and just kind of check in on our one word and how it was going for the year. So those were the kind of things that we did.
• 22:14
  To connect ourselves to each other. And you were asking your, your question was, you know, how, how we were as a family, right? How we got to where we are today. Was that pretty much it, Kelly? Yeah. Yeah. You got it. You nailed it.
• 22:29
  I mean, you're so good. I'm making so many notes. That's why you see me fidgeting all over the place. I got, I'm writing things down because you're on fire. This is, anybody in a relationship that wants to be in a relationship, got to read this book because we're going to get to this point, but I'm going to just go on page 127. There's 15 questions, discussion points that you can ask each other if you're in a relationship that will inspire communication. But what I love most about it is right after it,
• 22:59
  is your marriage prayer. And I'm going to read it because I love it. And I wrote down God's, Gordon's honor and serve God and all that they do. And this, what I'm about to read, shows that. Our marriage prayer. God, we invite you into our marriage to love us, unite us, heal us, strengthen us, and protect us so we may grow strong together and serve you together. It's beautiful.
• 23:25
  Beautiful. And there's an add-on there, and that is, and raise children that glorify and honor you. So we have a little addition to that that we'll do, but that's the main prayer and one that we share all the time. And I always say, we both say, take our prayer, use it as your own, take some of it.
• 23:48
  If you need it, you know, whatever part of that resonates with you. This is a fascinating statistic, Kelly. 99% of couples who pray together, stay together. Isn't that interesting? Now, 50%.
• 24:10
  stay together that go to church. So it's not about attending church or, I mean, not to say that church isn't great. I don't mean that or temple, whatever it is, but it's prayer. And John and I asked each other, why is that?
• 24:24
  And I really believe because it is ongoing. It is ongoing prayer. And I'm not going to claim this analogy as my own because John Gordon came up with it, but you have to think about it like this. So if you put a cucumber in pickle juice and you pull it right back out, it's still a cucumber.
• 24:45
  But it is the act of putting the cucumber in the pickle juice and leaving it in there and continuing to let it soak up the pickle juice that it becomes the pickle, that it transforms into the pickle. And that's the same with prayer. It's ongoing prayer. And I'm telling you, it really does transform a relationship. I love it. My seagullism of that is why do showers work? Because we do them every day.
• 25:16
  It's the same thing. Something you do over and over and over again. That's a good one. I like that. So the reason why you need to listen. A seagullism. Yes. The reason why you guys need to listen to John and Catherine is 27 years of marriage, guys. 27 years. And it hasn't always been smooth. They talk about it in the book. Um...
• 25:36
  I don't want to spoil it because I want you to go out and read it because it's not what you guys think. But how did the aforementioned issue that John had that you talk about in the book? I don't want to spoil it, so I'm trying to dance around it. How did that make your guys' relationship stronger? Yeah.
• 25:55
  Oh, okay. So this is, this is a good question. I'm going to spoil it a little bit for people because only because there's so much more into it that you do have to read the book. But so here's the story. I'm walking. I had went to lunch with some girlfriends of mine and during this period of our lives, it seemed like a lot of our friends were getting divorced and,
• 26:22
  And John was traveling all the time and I wasn't feeling connected to him. Why? Because we weren't communicating because he was gone all the time and I was home and the kids, it was a really stressful time. So I go to lunch with some girlfriends. One of my girlfriends proceeds to tell me she's getting divorced. The other one tells me her husband's having an affair and I, I'm,
• 26:46
  the one couple that were getting a divorce, we used to play tennis with. And if I tell you, Kelly, we, we would switch courts and every time we'd switch court, they would kiss. And like John and I would kind of look at each other, like, it was very awkward. And so all of a sudden to find out this couple that seemed like they just were so in love with,
• 27:06
  we're getting divorced. Meanwhile, John and I are like about to hit each other with a tennis racket because he didn't hit that ball. And you know, like we're competitive. And so it really kind of rocked my world. So John had got back from out of town that afternoon and he and I went for a walk on the beach. And while we're walking on the beach, I'm, you know, kind of sharing with him how I was feeling
• 27:31
  insecure or, you know, like not feeling connected and feeling like things weren't really going well with us. There was nothing glaring at this point, right? It was just, I think the sheer fact that we hadn't communicated. And, you know, I just said, I was really distraught about our dear friends getting a divorce. Right about that time, John stops dead in his tracks, turns in the sand and looks at me and says, I have something to tell you. Microphone drop. I couldn't breathe.
• 28:01
  He said, I cheated on you when we first got married. What? Now this is about 14 years into the marriage. Now, I'm going to say,
• 28:13
  Okay, so I will say this to you only because he's always like, he feels this is an important part. He didn't have sex with this person, but it didn't matter to me. It was somebody who he had given his attention. They had kissed. It was in his office. You know, it was an affair. I don't know, however you want to say it, however long or short it was. And so he wasn't getting off the hook by that, by the way. And I just honestly, so Kelly, I just got to tell you this.
• 28:44
  I'm the wild one in our relationship. Like John Gordon, John Gordon,
• 28:49
  always vanilla, not a drinker, never did drugs. Me, bikini model, did lots of drugs, flew on Learjets down to, I mean, I drank, I was very wild, okay? So I experienced a lot, let's just say that. So if anybody was gonna cheat, it should have been me. Like, I was absolutely devastated when he said this to me.
• 29:18
  Really? And so I thought, oh my God, I can't, I can't stay with him. So I know you're laughing. And so I, I decided, by the way.
• 29:32
  Seriously, if anybody was, I was the one to, I'm sexually like, this is me. Like I, you know, I, I don't have a problem talking about sex. Oh, not my husband. I mean, we used to joke. I swear to God that he was like a Puritan that he must've come from a different life as a Puritan on the Mayflower. That is what I'm talking about.
• 29:54
  All of a sudden I'm finding this out. I was like, what? So definitely threw me through, through for a loop, threw me into a huge midlife crisis early on. I tried to cheat on him. It didn't work. That's a whole weird story in itself. And, uh, cause I believe it was God, you know, God wanted us to stay together, to be able to help couples stay together and do all the great things we're doing now. And so, so that didn't happen. And so, so that's,
• 30:22
  That's just one of the things that happened in our marriage. How did we stay together? Well, after I- How did it make you guys stronger? Yep. Okay. It made us stronger because we ended up having to really, really uncover some things about ourselves and come up with ways to make our relationship stronger. How did we do that?
• 30:48
  First one was the prayer. So that's how that prayer came about. When John was fighting for our relationship, he was on a plane.
• 30:58
  And he was sitting next to this guy and he literally just starts pouring his heart out to this guy telling him, you know, Oh my gosh, when we first got married, this happened. And I told my wife, I didn't think she'd think it was a big deal. And you know, of course, the guy was like, dude. And, uh, he said, well, you need to come up with a prayer. And so John came up with that prayer and he would say that prayer all the time, Kelly. And I refuse to say the prayer with him.
• 31:25
  But I started memorizing it. Like he would say it and I kind of would hear it. I would know it. But again, was not going to give him the satisfaction of saying it out loud. And this went on for months, you know, and he was on the couch. I finally did let him back into the bed and he would say it. I would not listen. One night, I want to cry every time I think about it.
• 31:49
  I let him grab my hand because he would always reach for my hand. I pulled away. And this one night he went to reach for my hand again and I held his hand and I started to say the prayer out loud with him. And that was the night that I knew I was going to forgive him.
• 32:09
  And, and that's when things started to turn. And so in that, like, well, really what we're talking about right here, just so you know, is, is the grit. It's the grit acronym. So my title, the title of my book, Relationship Grit, the grit's an acronym. And so the first letter is G, which stands for God. Bring God into your relationship.
• 32:35
  So I'm going to go ahead and tell you the acronym just because it's going to flow right into really answering your whole question. And then some, but the R stands for resolve. And you have to resolve to stay in your relationship and work things out. Like I said earlier, barring any serious physical or mental abuse, right?
• 32:57
  Other than things like that, you need to stay in and come up with processes and things to help you stay together.
• 33:08
  John resolved to keep me in the relationship. He never gave up. He kept fighting for me. I got to give him a lot of credit. So he would leave me notes all over the house. Every morning I would wake up and there was like a note by the coffee maker. You're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. I go to my car. I'm not kidding you. Matter of fact, he better start doing that again, by the way, because I really loved it. No, but he did. I mean, he didn't.
• 33:39
  I know he didn't give up. And I, and I got to tell you, this is another thing that he did that I really think was key. Cause I've seen the opposite happen a lot of times in relationships when I wouldn't trust him because he had told me he cheated on me. Right. So let me see your phone.
• 33:58
  I would check his email. I'm not proud of that. I'm not saying that that's what you should do, but I can tell you those, that's the way I was feeling. And by checking, it would confirm that he wasn't doing it. Right? So that was just our situation. But I got to tell you, he never, ever, ever gave me a hard time. And a really neat thing happened. After a while, I wasn't interested in looking.
• 34:28
  Right. But how many times I've seen this over and over again in relationships, you know, it's maybe inconvenient, but you're like, let me see your phone or like, and you're like, oh my God. But you know what? You're not building trust.
• 34:42
  So I have to give him a lot of credit. He never, ever balked. He would always just hand over whatever, let me look at his email. And so it didn't last that long, which was great. So that's the R, which is resolve. And the I is invest. You have to invest in your relationship. And again, sounds obvious. Like, well, yeah, but no. So many times you get together, you're both so busy with your careers or your kids or your coat, whatever it is, who gets the worst of you?
• 35:13
  normally your partner, right? Why? Because you feel safest with them. And that's when you need to check yourself and kind of what you said earlier, Kelly, which is treat her like a queen. Because if you treat her like a queen, she's going to treat you like a king.
• 35:28
  And so, you know, John, again, he was guilty of this early on. John had a nonprofit called the Phoenix organization. He started it when he was 24 and he had all these people that, uh, worked at this organization and, and he was the nicest guy to everybody. And then he would get home and he would speak so nasty to me. And I would have to say like, Hey, I'm sorry.
• 35:53
  You know, why would you speak nice to them? And so it's about checking yourself, checking yourself. And some, it's not like you're going to be perfect at it, but it's almost like a muscle. The more you strengthen it, the easier it gets, right? The stronger it gets. So that's the I in this. I like to say it like this, and Kelly, this will totally resonate with you. You probably don't wake up in the morning. Well, I know you don't. And you go, oh.
• 36:18
  I want to be fit. I want to have amazing muscles and I want to have this great build that I can be on camera and show everybody all the time. Cause I just love your post, right? You work really hard for your physique. Now,
• 36:34
  Yeah, you may have like a tendency genetically to have, you know, I've got great pecs, whatever it is, but you have to work at it. It doesn't just happen. And it's the same as your relationship. You have to work on your relationship to make it strong. And the last letter is T, which is together.
• 36:53
  You have to do it together. You have to remember you're on the same team. Because if you are on separate teams, you're keeping score and you both lose. That's it. That's the in a nutshell GRIT acronym. That was beautiful, Catherine.
• 37:13
  That's, that's tremendously beautiful. I would also tell you invest could be intentional, be intentional in your relationship. That's, that's good. I might file that under, I might find intentional file intentional under invest, right?
• 37:28
  Intentional investment, maybe. Yeah, same one. It's be intentional at investing then. I wanted to point out that this all started with you forgiving, John. Until you forgive, healing cannot occur. That is when harder than life was born, when I forgave my parents for all of the abuse. And I wasn't forgiving them for that. Yeah.
• 37:55
  I was forgiving them so I could start the healing. And that sounds like exactly what was going on with you because you just went into, and I, it's my next question and I can't even believe it. It said here, um,
• 38:10
  You discuss right after your forgiveness, the covenant. It's extremely beautiful. It's on the same page as forgiveness, page 88. And I don't want to take anything away from the message. So would you kind of go into, I want to make sure we talk about this. What you uncover, God will cover. But wait, one more, because I wrote this in here too. God wouldn't let you cheat.
• 38:39
  I have been really a big inspiration. This was my podcast with John was becoming one with myself and allowing God in. And since I've done that, I'm the same way. If I try to wake up in the morning and say, yeah, I'm just going to take today off. God won't even let me.
• 38:58
  God, if I try to go down a bad path, God won't let me. So talk about that in your relationship and that message, that covenant message, because this is, it's so beautiful. I know it, but I just want you to say it in your own words.
• 39:15
  Well, just the, the, the covenant is, it's a covenant with God. It's not, it's not just about John and I making that decision. I mean, it is so much bigger than that. I mean, if you want it for us, you know, if you want to think about it, you know, like a covenant, you're going to get struck down. I don't really mean, you know, but I mean, really like, this is not just about John and I making this decision. This is our promise with God.
• 39:43
  And as long as we continue to bring God as the center of our relationship, it's going to be okay.
• 39:52
  It's going to be okay. And, you know, have him use us for his purpose. I got to tell you something funny on a side note. John also calls it the no cut zone. All right. We're going to talk about RIT. We've had all kinds of technical difficulties, but we powered on and I admire you. And if it was anybody else, I would have said, let's just reschedule. But I...
• 40:15
  We were going so good. We're going to make a little bit of a switch now. We've talked a ton about relationship grit, which was fabulous. Thank you for your vulnerability, Catherine. Before we hit record, we were talking about addiction a little bit. And
• 40:31
  When you get into relationships and there's challenges, every so often an addiction could be present, even if it's something as simple as drinking. So in your view, what are some effective strategies to address addiction and or drinking within the framework of your personal relationship and growth and to bring you together?
• 41:00
  Such a great question. I've lived it. You know, I'm, I don't hide the fact that I started smoking pot when I was 13. I started doing cocaine about 15, moved in with my cocaine dealing boyfriend, started smoking cocaine, um,
• 41:19
  Um, went to college shockingly enough. Um, and locally, meaning I went to Old Dominion university, but I've lived with him. And as soon as I graduated, I knew that I had to get away from him and I needed to get a fresh start. And that was going to get me away from the bad habits. Um, so I,
• 41:39
  that I had. Well, you know, the saying, Kelly, no matter where you go, there you are. So there I was in Nashville, um, in a whole new city, 900 miles away. But, uh, I found those same type of people and those same type of drugs. And then I added on, um, ecstasy and some other things to the mix.
• 42:04
  All that to say, finally ended up hitting rock bottom and got sober. That didn't last very long. I went down to Atlanta. I was dating a professional wrestler. I'm just trying to give you the quick background and started, you know, partying again. And then finally, again, hit rock bottom and said, that's it. So by the time I met John Gordon, I had already been clean and sober and
• 42:31
  three and a half years. You know, I always say I traded my tequila shots for green juice shots. And so I was really into health. And so when I met John, you know, I didn't do anything. I was living this great clean life. As a matter of fact, I was a really good influence on him. He wasn't a drinker, but he definitely didn't know how to eat healthy. And so I had to get him off those orange soda pops and things like that. So fast forward, we get married. We have these kids and...
• 43:01
  Life was great. We moved down to this little town called Ponte Vedra Beach and I was new to town and the mailman was so nice and so welcoming and he put a bottle of wine in my mailbox to welcome us to the neighborhood. And if you know anything about addiction, that bottle of wine sat underneath my cabinet for three months.
• 43:28
  And I kept thinking about it and I kept thinking, you know, it's not like I would ever do drugs again. I mean, I'm a mother. I have these two beautiful children. I would never do that. But
• 43:42
  I don't know, what's wrong with alcohol? And you gotta remember, I moved down to this beach town and there's a bunch of beach clubs. And so it looked very glamorous as I would see these bikini clad moms, you know, running around with the kids, holding their glass of wine or holding their margarita. And I would, because I have an addictive personality and I'm monitoring everybody else, I would watch them.
• 44:08
  And they seemed just fine. Like nothing went awry. So about Thanksgiving of this year, when we moved down, I decided I was going to have some wine. And that began a, oh my gosh.
• 44:23
  eight year drinking extravaganza. What do I mean by that? I had this best friend that I was always training in the gym with. We were like total gym rats. John, my husband was traveling all the time, so he was never even around, her husband too. But then we became drinking buddies and I was
• 44:48
  I look back now at some of the things we did and I think, oh my gosh, I mean, it was nothing to jeopardize our marriage. We weren't hanging out with guys, but like drinking and driving with the children. I mean, I can tell you story after story in that, or just being so drunk at the beach that we didn't know where our kids were. I mean, they could have been drowning. I mean, I look back at some of those things and I think, wow. And so John did not like it. He didn't like it at all. But you know, um,
• 45:18
  You know, when you're an addict or when you know how to manipulate situations. And so he had no clue. And I would just pretty much say to him, well, you know, you can't ever tell me not to quit drinking. By the way, you know...
• 45:35
  I would kind of use some of that against him. Like, well, you're never home. So anyway, by my own behavior, it was my 41st birthday and I had a big party at this wine, Italian wine club with all my girlfriends. It was like, seriously, like 30, 40 women. And again, you understand this being, you know, coming from this background,
• 46:05
  If you pour alcohol in my glass,
• 46:09
  I'm going to keep drinking it. I mean, even to this day, as a non-drinker, I can tell you what everybody's drinking at the table. And I can tell you the people that are leaving their drink without drinking it. I mean, and my husband at the end of the night, I might make the, he goes, you noticed that? I'm like, oh honey, I noticed. I noticed it all. Right. And so, but anyway, I'm not going to leave a glass empty. I'm a guzzler. I guzzle water. I guzzle coffee. I'm a guzzler.
• 46:39
  So this particular night, I probably drank seriously a good almost three bottles of wine by the time they had continued to just pour into my glass. All I remember is driving home, because I drove drunk, and going over a bump. And I woke up in the morning on the sofa, and I thought, oh, my God, did I run over somebody? Yeah.
• 47:02
  And yeah, like I did not know. I didn't know. We probably don't even need to go through this whole story, but I'm just sharing it with you anyway. I'll condense it. Okay. All this to say, okay, so I did end up quitting drinking. I quit drinking again for another eight years and then started drinking again when my daughter was a senior in college. I mean, in high school because...
• 47:30
  my thought process, this is how insidious this is. You know, I did not. Yeah. And I know it is like, just so you know, I know it is. And you know, I could set myself up. I could set myself up. And, uh, I'm like, you know, I really do not want my daughter going to college and experiencing alcohol for the first time in her life, especially with having a lot coming from a very long line of alcoholics. And so, you know, I, I,
• 47:55
  When Jade asked me, we had gone to like Canyon Ranch and she goes, mom, can I have a margarita? And I was like, sure. And I was like, okay, let me taste it. And that started me drinking again. And it started my last, I'm going to say, drinking binge. Okay. So your question was, how does that work into your marriage? And so John up to that point, you have to remember was always traveling. So he really wasn't around enough to really, really be influenced by it.
• 48:23
  This last bout round of drinking, he was home a lot more. We were together a lot more. And, you know, it didn't...
• 48:36
  used to affect me like it does now. And I really started to have memory issues and I was getting fatter and fatter. And, you know, all these things that never had happened before, I normally was able to drink, keep my rockin' body, you know, blah, blah, blah, but those things weren't happening. And John would start saying to me, we, you know, again, we were together a lot more and he would say, we're gonna go out tonight, are you gonna drink?
• 49:05
  And I would always say to him, you cannot monitor my drinking. You cannot tell me to not drink because when you do, then I want to hide it from you. And the one thing I don't want to do is make this a secret because I really feel like this would not be good. And I would say this to him. And so, uh,
• 49:27
  Some of the time things were just fine. And there were those times when I would drink a little too much, not enough to like totally make a fool of myself, but maybe I ran my mouth a little more than I should in a crowd that should not have known maybe the things that they, you know, I was telling them. And it all culminated, and this is the end of this part, by the way, New Year's Eve, two years ago,
• 49:52
  We were going to Teddy Mellencamp's house with a whole group of friends. And John said, I don't want you to drink tonight. And...
• 50:02
  I wasn't planning on drinking because I knew it wasn't the right thing to do. But the minute he said that in the back of my mind, it was like, I know it sounds childish. It's so childish, but in the back of my mind. So we get to their house and all the ladies are coming in and I say, oh, John doesn't want me to drink tonight. Well, what are your friends going to do?
• 50:25
  We're gonna slide you a cocktail. So instead of like drinking normally, like a normal person would do, because I was hiding it from John, they'd hand me a glass of champagne. Here's me, boom, boom.
• 50:39
  Boom. Oh, shot of tequila. Boom. So I'm totally fine, right? John says I'm fine. No, I mean, like, this is what happened. We're all around the table. Ed Milet's there. He's talking about, you know, we're talking about New Year's Eve.
• 50:58
  things we're going to do in the new year and what we're grateful for. I mean, it was this great group of people. John said, he turns and looks at me and he was like, all of a sudden your eyes were like lobster eyes. Like they were like going in different places. So Jade, my daughter was there. We were supposed to stay the night with them. This whole thing. My daughter threw me in the car and off we went back to Santa Monica. Now,
• 51:24
  We are in Newport Beach. It's about an hour and a half from Santa Monica. And it's raining. And if you know anything about LA, it doesn't rain. So raining in LA on New Year's Eve, not a good combo. I'm wasted. Jade starts saying something to me like, she was giving me a hard time. Jade did not like me to drink. Oh, by the way, Jade is allergic to alcohol. Now you tell me that's not a blessing in disguise. So after that whole margarita thing, she couldn't drink.
• 51:54
  So I just kept drinking for her. And so neither one, nobody in my family liked me drinking. And so anyway, we're driving home. And all I remember is Jade saying something to me and saying like, you're drunk. And that I thought I said, no, I'm not. But something else came out like a roll. And then I just started laughing.
• 52:14
  Like, you know, and then she said something else and I hit her. Like I hit her really hard and she was driving. I don't remember what it was. Don't remember what she said. And apparently she like plowed me in the chest. Again, don't remember.
• 52:29
  So we get back to our condo in Santa Monica. It's not even New Year's Eve, not even 12 o'clock. The, you know, hasn't, hasn't, the ball hasn't dropped. I go pass out. So this is the end of my story, by the way. I go pass out. Now I have to tell you, one of the things that John would always do is he would, um, I,
• 52:53
  kind of blow up things that won't really, they didn't really happen like that. He would kind of imagine them to be more like, you know, you went over there and you were hugging on him or, you know, you remember kissing him on the forehead or, you know, whatever it was. And then I would say, my girlfriends would be like, it didn't really happen like that, you know? So he was always trying to embellish thinking that would be the thing that would get me to stop drinking. And so, yeah.
• 53:22
  I woke up in the morning. You probably remember this, like this, one eye. And I'm looking around like, okay, where am I? That was the first thing. I knew I was in my condo. And then I remembered what was starting to come back. Oh, I got really drunk last night. All right. So last thing that happens, I get up, I walk out in the living room and John is there. And John looks at me and he starts. Okay.
• 53:47
  do you did this? And do you remember saying this? And you hugged him too tight. And then all of a sudden he just stopped and his face got really soft. And he goes, you know what? You just need grace. You just need love. And Kelly, I went from this, went from fist up to all of a sudden it was like,
• 54:16
  All I could do was look at myself. And that moment I said, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore.
• 54:25
  and I haven't drank. That's the good news. So how do we handle this in relationships? That was the very long explanation for what you're asking is that it is a delicate balance. And you know, I can't tell you that if I didn't do some things that were more harmful to the relationship, like maybe, you know,
• 54:51
  cheating on him or, you know, getting a DUI, being thrown in jail, you know, whatever could have happened that it might have been different. But in our situation, it really took me looking at myself. There was really nothing he could do. He couldn't have threatened me and said he was going to leave. None of that. I didn't care. And I'd tell him that. I don't care. Okay. So, because he would say like, well, what if I, what if I told you, I'd be like,
• 55:19
  then I would be lying to you and I would be telling you that I'm giving it up for, but I would only be giving it up for you and not because I wanted to. So in our relationship for us, it ended up being that I had to come to that place myself. Does that answer your question?
• 55:38
  Yes. And you, you know what you did? You bookended it with the answers, which was beautiful. And it, and it was, I'm going to highlight it just so in case anybody, we lost anybody, but I love the story. Thank you for your vulnerability. And I could sit here for two hours and just listen to the Catherine Clinton stories because there's so much here. Here's, you know, you guys are successful and not finding not only financially, but just in all facets of life and to hear life's ups and downs. They're just, there's,
• 56:06
  You know, the smartest people learn from other people's mistakes, you know, and they learn. That's what wisdom is. Learn from your own mistakes, but learn from other people's mistakes. And you're just bearing it all. And I appreciate it. So they're getting people are getting a masterclass. But you bookended it with wherever you wherever you go, there you are. So your shit goes with you.
• 56:27
  You should find you out. I got a newsflash. There's an old Latin saying in vino veritas, the wine speaks the truth through the wine speaks the truth. So if you're a miserable person or you're unhappy or something's not right, and you start fricking pounding that fricking naughty water,
• 56:44
  It's going to come out of you, man. That merry-go-round keeps happening. And I'm going to tell you, if you want to be in a relationship and you're meeting people, you're using alcohol, you're going to meet all the wrong people. You're using alcohol to meet people. Like attracts like, man. You're probably going to find another person who's emotionally unavailable or using alcohol as a crutch or a mask. And it ain't going to work. Because the only way you can do it, you go back to the four C's. You go back to the grit.
• 57:13
  to work on each on on yourself and yourself i believe relationships are two holes coming together to elevate each other not you you two halves i'm half and i'm half and we complete me that's a that's a jerry mcguire ism that's that's a it sells movies that's not how it is two complete people come together
• 57:35
  and grow together. So thank you for that. And we got, I have several more questions, but these are gonna be quick ones. Okay, I'll keep them quick. One more is going to be a little bit long. And I'm going to share a story with you. I don't think I even told you this one. I wouldn't
• 57:53
  be me if I wouldn't ask you guys an intimacy question. And I was at a plant medicine ceremony and someone explained to me that intimacy is into me, I see. And my mind was blown, I'm like, whoa.
• 58:09
  Because at that plant medicine ceremony, it took a couple of days for me to download this, but I was, I, through alcohol and through not working on myself and through all this terrible childhood, I thought sex, love, and intimacy were all the same thing. And they're all three separate things. You can have intimacy without having sex, without having love. I love intimacy.
• 58:36
  we have intimate conversations with our friends and I'm not having sex with them. And I'm not, and some people, you're going to have intimate conversations with them. Anyways, there are three separate things. So having said that, how do you believe overcoming challenges together increases your intimacy in your relationship? Oh, you heal in relationship. I mean, you heal in relationship. You don't heal alone. Oh,
• 59:05
  If you're doing it right, if you're doing it right. You can do the work. You can also hurt in a relationship. Yes. Right. Right. But in a loving, let me say, you heal in a loving relationship. Because you can work through those things together. And, you know, obviously I know that firsthand. And I'm actually seeing it in my son. You know, he's younger.
• 59:35
  and say, okay, you know, I'm not in a bad relationship or no one's going to hurt me again. But no, you have to be in a loving relationship and work those things out together. And like you say, so because intimacy, sex, if you have those, it's all connection. It's all connection, right? And you can't really have that connection
• 1:00:03
  if you're not doing the work. Beautiful. All right, we're gonna rip through a bunch of questions. These are easy ones. This kind of personal, just to get to know you. What's a day in the life look like for you when you're not working, or when you're not doing podcasting or writing? Kelly, every damn day is different. And I don't know if I like that. I will be 57 July 2nd. And I'm still trying to, I know. When I was younger,
• 1:00:31
  Come on. No. And when I was younger, I always had like, I was so, I had such a routine. I had such bad ADD growing up that, you know, I had to have routines, but that's what worked for me. And it was the way I became, you know, top sales, whatever it was because I had systems and somehow or another along the way I've lost all my systems. So like every morning's different. So I'm still working on that. So in the day of the life, there's one constant that happens.
• 1:01:00
  I have my coffee. I have my coffee. That's the one thing I do. I'm going to speed through these just because we're going to keep going. Who has been the biggest influence or mentor in your career or personal life? John Gordon. I knew you were going to say that. It's the truth. I love you. I'd love to say no, but it is the truth.
• 1:01:19
  You want to know the man-crushed man-to-man. I've read every one of John's books. I just adore him. He and Ed are two of my favorites, and I'm going to look forward to that day, November 4th. I'll tell you, it's going to be great, and it's going to be intimate.
• 1:01:34
  Intimate. I keep asking him and if you can put a bug in his ear, I want to interview John and Ed about their relationship. Oh my God. I don't think that's a great idea. Cause they have such a great relationship. Okay. I asked John and I keep messaging Ed, but he hasn't responded. So I'm gonna ask John. He's been busy. It's been, yeah, doing stuff at his main island. What's one hobby or interest you have that might surprise your followers?
• 1:02:02
  Hmm. Might surprise my followers. Gosh, you want that quick answer and I don't have it. I mean, I'd say tennis or pickleball, but that's not surprising. Um,
• 1:02:22
  I don't know. Keep going. Maybe I'll come back to that. Can you tell us about a book or a movie that has profoundly impacted your perspective on life? Yes. I watched The Chosen. And I don't care what religion you are, The Chosen really talks about the Old Testament and...
• 1:02:42
  Jewish times, my husband's Jewish, the New Testament. And I got to tell you, I learned more from watching The Chosen about the Bible than anything I've ever heard or done before. So, you know, you've only been around me this couple of days, but A, I'm Jewish too. Oh, yay! And I refer to myself as The Chosen One.
• 1:03:11
  So do we. So it's so funny. Yeah. No. And people, it's funny because we still donate to the synagogues here. John puts stuff in the flyers. And, you know, he's like, they're the chosen ones. You honor the Jews. You honor the Jews. John just, you know, has come a different way in that.
• 1:03:33
  where he sees Jesus the Jew now, but it's all a beautiful story and we need to honor, we need to honor all of it. Yeah. I love that. So what's your number one non-negotiable? Disrespect. Define happiness. Not a full plate. You can tell you're a lot going on right now. What's your biggest fear? My kid's demise.
• 1:03:58
  I'm glad you went there. I love the Gordon family. Do you have any interesting family traditions or stories that we haven't talked about? We do. We have a lot of stuff that we do. Yeah. So one of the things I do that I share with everybody is I have a sit down dinner or breakfast and dinner with my daughter every day and we talk.
• 1:04:18
  It's just people don't do it anymore. So yeah, that's beautiful. Well, this is something probably a lot of people do do that. That is a constant for us and that we have a group text. And so we're constantly in communication. You know, Jade's wherever she is, John's wherever. We are in constant communication with each other. Has anybody ever interviewed the whole family?
• 1:04:39
  No, I have. I recently interviewed my family, but we haven't as a family been interviewed. Let's do that too. That'd be fun. I might come in for that. I'm going to talk to John. I'll see if I can come in that weekend and we can have a little fun. That'd be fun. Yeah. I think that I'd like to hear Jade's, I'm fascinated, but I'd like to hear her, how it was growing up. I just, I think it would be a blast.
• 1:05:03
  So, all right, we'll get you out of here to this is if you could leave me with one piece of advice, what would it be? My one piece of advice would be stay present. So many times we worry about things that haven't happened yet. It's like just be in the moment. Really. Life is short.
• 1:05:24
  Yeah, but hopefully it's long because you'll be 57 and you're doing great things. And there's some great stuff about to be happening with your kids, with life. And I see you and I love you. Thank you. Love you. We got through this thing and I appreciate your patience and I cannot wait to see you next.
• 1:05:50
  Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with, delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit TrustNTM.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.