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Work, Stress & Addiction: The Hidden Link Nobody’s Talking About · Recovering Out Loud

0:01
Hi there, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud
0:04
Podcast, the show where we get real about mental health and
0:08
addiction. I'm so glad you're here.
0:10
If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or
0:13
alcohol, please reach out for help.
0:16
Send me a message on all social media platforms at Recovering
0:20
Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com.
0:26
You are no longer alone. So that's why I like doing the
0:43
back and forth, like the professionals lived experience
0:48
back and forth and then the family side of it.
0:50
I always, I always loved doing because my last relapse I was
0:54
really, what's the word? I don't want to say humbled, but
1:00
I was really, I was humbled, but I was really, my eyes opened to
1:05
how much I affected my family, right?
1:07
Because they saw it was different for when I didn't have
1:11
a solution before, you know, when I was 23 and I had no
1:14
solution at all. I had no concept of, I didn't
1:15
even know what that word meant. I just thought everybody used
1:18
drugs and drank the way I did. And I was going to go on like
1:20
that for the rest of my life and somehow manage it one day,
1:22
right? This great illusion that we all
1:24
have. So this time around, my family
1:26
knew that I had a solution and I wasn't reaching for it every
1:30
day. And I was choosing to live in
1:32
Airbnbs and hotels and do all these crazy things.
1:36
And so, yeah, so I that's my point with that is I'm very
1:40
interested in also too. I get a lot of messages from
1:44
family members, more so than addicts I would say.
1:49
Yeah, family's a complex one. We can get into that a little
1:51
bit there. I can try and be helpful to your
1:54
listeners in terms of my own lived experience there.
1:57
So or how long have you been sober now?
1:58
Now almost 10 months. Amazing.
2:01
Yeah, so I had eight years and decided that I was, I had a
2:07
secret about something I always talk about.
2:09
It's a long story, but essentially I wasn't telling the
2:12
truth about what was going on over a year, you know, and I had
2:15
these ideas of fixing my body dysmorphia, you know, I so I
2:20
started with performance enhancing drugs and steroids.
2:23
And every time I say that, it's funny.
2:26
People are always like, how does that lead to, you know, smoking
2:29
meth? And I'm like, well, dude, like
2:31
it always starts with one thing, right, where you're like, I'm
2:33
not going to tell you about this thing that I'm, and then this,
2:36
it snowballs into like secrets and secrets and secrets.
2:40
And then I'm doing Adderall and then next thing I know I'm on
2:42
the couch and someone's offering me to smoke some meth and I'm
2:45
like, why not fuck it, right, Why not?
2:49
And then, you know, it's very hard to get back in, in, in at
2:52
least my situation. But enough about me.
2:56
People talk about me all the time.
2:57
I want to hear about you. Do they?
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Do they? Feel like I'm among a big, big
3:03
deal here with Anthony. I could talk about my and.
3:06
Recovering out loud. All day.
3:07
Thank you. I could talk about myself all
3:09
day, but. That's the opposite.
3:12
I, I don't struggle talking about myself, but I feel like
3:15
every day it's a journey of coming to peace and acceptance
3:21
of, you know, my life and experiences.
3:24
So thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and share of
3:27
it today. Yeah, I'm excited too.
3:29
I gotta say I like I absolutely love your passion for this topic
3:36
and you know, within meeting you in on the phone, just talking on
3:41
the phone for 10 minutes there, like I could just feel how much
3:44
this means to you and I'm excited to get into that.
3:47
Like, why is it so important to you for one?
3:50
And well, why don't you tell us, like, tell everyone what you do
3:52
first? OK, I do a lot.
3:55
I'm a little bit of a workaholic so, but I'm making, I'm making a
4:01
transition right now away from or with the Canadian addiction
4:05
treatment centers. They're a wonderful network of
4:08
service providers. So always kind of worked in
4:11
mental health and substance use in some capacity.
4:14
I would say most of my experience has been through
4:17
inpatient treatment centers in the private world, but I've also
4:20
worked a nonprofit and the public sector.
4:22
So I went from, you know, a private treatment center that
4:26
was a little bit smaller a number of years ago.
4:29
And then I moved into nonprofit and I actually worked in the
4:32
shelter system for 3 1/2 years over COVID-19 or throughout
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COVID-19. And yeah, you've.
4:39
Seen some shit? Yeah, definitely seen some shit
4:42
for sure. It was a devastating time.
4:49
Yeah. It's a lot of times I wish I
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hadn't seen the things that I've seen.
4:53
But at the same time, I'm also grateful that I've gotten to be
4:59
able to see the reality of how much our system has failed
5:04
people. And you know, how just like you
5:08
were sharing right now, Anthony, like it's the difference of a
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day for someone, for a lot of people.
5:13
And it, there's so much misunderstanding around people
5:18
who are struggling with substance use, you know, also
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mixed with like mental health. And then you also add the
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housing piece, which is becoming more and more of our communities
5:29
and society. I mean, it's just the numbers
5:32
are going up and up and up. So even though it's, it's, it
5:35
was traumatizing working in that area, I, I'm so grateful and
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some of the most amazing people I've met have been like
5:44
residents of the shelter system who I just truly think are the
5:48
most remarkable humans in the world.
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I really do. I grew up in precariously house
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housing situations and just had a really rough childhood and
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didn't come from a lot. So I feel very at home in that
6:04
environment, ironically, no pun intended.
6:07
And it's just kind of where I feel really at peace, which is
6:11
kind of hard to explain, but I loved working there.
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And then I, I came over to see, to see TC again about 3 1/2
6:19
years after that and stepped into some executive leadership
6:23
or senior leadership there and just kind of grew within the
6:27
organization. And now I'm kind of starting a
6:30
new journey myself. And throughout, you know, the
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last year and a half or so, I started my PhD in psych as well.
6:38
But the specialization is this is industrial and organizational
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psychology. So it's kind of like thinking
6:44
about teams and companies and organizations as an individual
6:51
itself and working and consulting to help make that
6:56
whole individual, if you will be as healthy and effective and you
7:03
know, healing as we possibly can.
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Like I, I can obviously go into it more if it would be helpful,
7:08
but that's how I most easily explain it.
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Yeah. So just really, really grateful
7:15
for the career so far. And that's so specifically when
7:18
you talk about helping organizations run as AI, like
7:21
that analogy too, like healthy human.
7:24
Yeah, there's certain things that need to fall in place
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daily, things that need to happen, right?
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We can, you know, metaphors can go on forever.
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You're talking specifically addiction centers,
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organizations, or just mental health or?
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Just everyone, actually, like any organization.
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Yeah. And what brings me to it is
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after years of working with individuals and, and Anthony,
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when I say every type of person, I truly mean every type of
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person. I mean, if there's a profile
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people like to put towards substance use or homelessness, I
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can tell you right now, none of those profiles are accurate.
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There's no face of addiction or face of homelessness or face of
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mental health. It's just all of us, any of us.
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And I just, I think the most prevalent thing coming through,
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there's probably 21 is trauma for sure, but the other one is
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stress. And it's our environments where
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people go in to work every day more and more.
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And we just live in the world where I'm sure you've said it on
8:28
the podcast many times, you know, like the opposite of
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addiction is connection. And we are living in such a
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disconnected world and heading into a place where I just think
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more and more people are going to be struggling and trying to
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cope and keep up with, you know, the unrealistic demands of the
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workplace now and again, just the impact of stress that we
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really need support there or we're just going to keep seeing
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people struggle. Yeah, more and.
8:59
More I mean, I can relate to that 100% more recently, right?
9:02
Like it is so much, especially living downtown Toronto.
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It's so funny, right? You're living in a huge city
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with the most people, you know, a lot of people in, I wanna say
9:13
in Canada. Is it most people in Canada?
9:15
I don't know. There's a lot of people that
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live in Toronto, but such a big city, you can feel so alone,
9:19
like it's so easy, right? And especially being in a condo,
9:23
it's so much easier for me to just isolate.
9:25
You know, even, you know, I live with my partner at home, my
9:28
wife, but it's so much easier for for us to isolate than it is
9:32
just to go out and to see my family.
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You know, my family's in the GTA.
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And for me, there's some days where it's like, that's just
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like the the longest trek, right, to get out there.
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And yeah, so that's something that I've been struggling with
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for sure is like, it's just so much easier to stay at home and
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not connect with anybody. And sometimes I'll get a phone
9:51
call and I'm just like, I don't even, I don't want like it just
9:55
snowballs, right? Like it starts with one night in
9:57
and then it's it's like not going to the gym, right?
9:59
When you don't go to the gym for a while, it's just so much
10:01
easier to to choose the life of Netflix and chill or whatever.
10:05
Yeah, whatever your advice is. I also think there's something
10:08
there you're bringing up, which is that exhaustion and just, Oh
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my gosh, there's something else I have to do in my day.
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Speaks to the fact that we're constantly on our phones and
10:17
constantly connected to the world in a way that our brains
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and our bodies literally are not meant to be kind of constantly
10:26
facing all the time, 24 hours a day.
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There's I was, I was speaking on an event last week and I talked
10:32
about just the breakdown of the stress cycle.
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And it like helped me remember that our nervous system when we
10:39
go through that stress, we're we're supposed to, or we did for
10:42
a very, very long time, close that stress cycle by just
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returning to a state of rest, maxing the nervous system.
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Equilibrium. Equilibrium, right?
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And so now, because our phones are always on, anyone can
10:56
message you anytime I need help or can you help me here?
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And whatever come in for this shift or whatever it might be,
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our poor nervous systems never rest and never get an
11:08
opportunity to just regulate again.
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And so we're constantly in this overhaul of like cortisol spikes
11:14
and constantly going and thinking and moving and doing.
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And then of course, we just crash.
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Like we're just like, I can't imagine going, you know, across
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that. I, I can't have anything else to
11:25
give. I have nothing else to give to
11:27
this world today. I just want to like Netflix and
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chill. And so if you maybe it's a bit
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of a stretch where when I think about that and simply connected
11:36
to the cycle of addiction and it just seems the exact same to me.
11:41
You know, we're coping, we're coping, we're coping, we're
11:43
coping. And there aren't enough outlets
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for us to, you know, get that rest, you know, unpack our
11:49
mental health, connect with an individual, go and have fun,
11:53
have a bit of play and joy in our lives.
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And then as soon as you know it, you're like you just said,
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you're the Adderall and, and, and you're just like, I'm in it.
12:02
I'm totally snowballed into it, right?
12:04
So I'm really fascinated with that, Anthony.
12:07
And I feel like I have a newly called purpose to share that in
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the workplace where we spend 80 to 90% of our time and we just
12:18
don't, we don't care for ourselves and and others the way
12:23
that we need to. What do?
12:24
You think the biggest problem with with corporate or
12:26
workplaces are today? What are the?
12:29
Biggest issues? So I think when it's it comes to
12:33
substance use, it's an interesting paradox because on
12:38
one hand, you know, it's, it's normalized and it's, you know,
12:44
after work, let's go and grab a drink or let's go and whatever.
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And then it very quickly turns into something, something that's
12:52
very stigmatizing. Oh, that person is struggling.
12:55
Like let's just push them through an HR process and really
12:59
isolate them even though they're having a hard time.
13:02
You know, a lot of the practices, organizational
13:05
practices are not rooted in any type of like trauma informed or
13:09
just social justice or human centered practices.
13:13
They're very, very rooted in industrial outcomes and
13:18
priorities. And of course, decades after
13:22
decades after decades, that's created even with the best
13:25
intentions, you know, an environment of distrust and
13:30
maybe fear sometimes. So in order for us to like heal
13:34
through that, we have to make some.
13:36
I really like talking about upstream solutions and I'm not
13:39
trying to place blame there in any way on like, you know,
13:42
specific departments or leadership necessarily.
13:46
But I do think upstream solutions need to include all
13:51
those conversations with all those people on how they can do
13:54
things better. Like really just looking at the
13:57
impact of a policy or a process on the person.
14:01
Here's something I'm already rambling.
14:03
I knew this was going to happen, but mergers and acquisitions are
14:07
fascinating to me. They happen more and more.
14:10
It's like the highest time for mergers and acquisitions.
14:12
And I read a stat like a year ago that said 70% of mergers and
14:17
acquisitions are like fail. They don't really ever get to a
14:22
point of maximum profit and success.
14:25
And it really started getting me to think about like when in the
14:30
merger and acquisition process to the people get thought about,
14:35
you know, like when we're making all these changes around
14:38
someone's livelihood, fear of restructuring, it's a world
14:41
economy. Like there's so many fears when
14:45
during that process are people addressing those fears and
14:48
creating space to prevent and not create harm to people.
14:54
So that example alone, which again is a normal organizational
14:58
experience in action or however you want to call it, all those
15:03
people, the ripple effect is all of those people that have to go
15:06
through that stress, putting all of those people at risk for a
15:12
number of different mental health or substance use
15:15
challenges. I, when I was at this event last
15:17
week, I identified some of the high risks in an organization
15:21
and it's, it's all really similar to again, on an
15:24
individual basis. So things like, you know, staff
15:28
being isolated, if you're shift work or out in, you know, parts
15:31
of Canada like mining or drilling, massive rates of
15:34
substance use, opiates, physical pain, you know, trauma and
15:39
adverse impact, critical incidents on site, massive
15:45
change. Change is a big one.
15:47
Those are like four or five things that happen all the time
15:51
that we know tons of information on, yet we're not embedding them
15:54
into our practices or organizational practices.
15:57
So yeah, my hope is I can maybe help in that way, especially for
16:02
the industries that have those higher risk factors, which at
16:06
this point is almost every single industry, yeah.
16:09
Yeah, construction and trades being?
16:10
Totally. The leading, yeah, I would say
16:13
I've actually done research on this because it interests me as
16:15
well. I think.
16:16
I don't have the numbers, but I think bartending and service
16:19
industry is like second, I would say.
16:22
And then something like professional, you know, lawyers
16:26
and stuff like that would probably be up there, Doctors as
16:28
well in some scenarios. I think it's something that we
16:31
need to look at. I'm really happy you brought up
16:33
the trades and construction because one of the I work with a
16:38
lot of reference in that space or worked with CTC, they do
16:42
amazing. Work.
16:43
Yeah, they have a lot of good unions, right?
16:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But at the same time, when, when
16:52
people who aren't in the field need to start doing things that
16:55
people in the field do, that's scary to me.
16:58
So I'll break that down. If in a in a workplace, you have
17:01
to start training your staff on how to do overdose prevention or
17:06
to use naloxone, that is a really downstream solution.
17:11
What is it upstream that's creating the situation of
17:19
someone coming to work using opiates or substance using to
17:25
the extent where they're putting themselves at risk and had harm
17:29
or in in harm's way. And then it, you know, it's
17:34
people around them that have to potentially save their life and.
17:38
Go through that trauma, Yeah it yeah, it also to me.
17:41
But that's wild to me. It also like it tells me that
17:44
they're they're kind of just saying, well, you know, work has
17:46
nothing to do with the reason that he's using drugs.
17:48
His he's just fucked up at home or he's got a lot going on.
17:51
That's why it's like you're at work 8 hours a day, right?
17:54
That's exactly it. So that's exactly where the
17:57
passion comes from. Because that mentality is so
18:01
incorrect and so damaging and that's part of the problem.
18:06
You know, we, we can't pretend people are still peopling or
18:09
people while they're at work 8 hours a day.
18:13
And it's not to say that we need to go as far as, you know, I
18:16
think people think, well, like how do we then even manage that?
18:19
You know what, what is the answer?
18:22
And I don't know if there is just one answer at this point
18:25
because it's not even something we're talking about that much.
18:29
We need to be talking about it a lot more.
18:33
I I can provide an anecdote to that because this happened to
18:37
me. So after I got sober again, I
18:39
left my corporate job that I was there for eight or nine years,
18:44
didn't get fired. Actually, surprisingly, I
18:46
managed to leave and go to another job probably.
18:48
Because you're really good at what you.
18:49
Do yeah, I mean, in recovery I built like a good life, right?
18:52
I built a lot of good skills and tools and and I was I was good
18:56
at it. I didn't like it, right?
18:57
I didn't like what I was doing, which is why I pivoted into this
19:00
industry now, But I got a message after I started posting
19:05
on social media a lot from a guy I used to work with.
19:07
And he just, you know, this huge long thing, man, I, you know,
19:10
I'm so happy you're doing well. And I'm thinking he's going to,
19:14
you know, I'm going to say I had no clue.
19:16
Like, holy fuck, this is like what?
19:18
Right, Because that's what we, we think that no one knows,
19:21
right? That that we're going through
19:22
shit. He met.
19:23
He goes on to say, I really knew you were in a rough place.
19:26
I knew you were struggling and I didn't say anything because I
19:29
was told not to by people at work, right?
19:32
And I, I just looked at that and I was like, that's so messed up.
19:35
Like I, you know, there's, there's got to be to your point,
19:38
there's got to be something better than you know, Oh, that
19:41
guy's messed up. Let's talk about him and how bad
19:43
he's doing. But you know, what are we going
19:45
to do? We can't do anything about.
19:46
It yeah, right. And I mean, it's OK to say what
19:49
are we going to do? We need help.
19:50
I mean, it's I know it's hard to ask for help, I can relate to
19:54
that. But if we start asking for help
19:57
just a little bit more people like me and many others who, you
20:02
know, would have my experience or education or or better can
20:06
come and and help. Like that's the whole point is
20:09
let's start to have these conversations and figure out how
20:13
we can help people because yeah, it's just scary to me that you
20:18
know, when the ripple effect Anthony, is huge and what I love
20:21
to do. I love a hard conversation.
20:25
Like, I love problem solving and finding a way for everyone to
20:29
have a win, win, win. So I believe, you know, there's
20:35
a, there's a way to do this where we help people, number
20:39
one, we create healthier workplaces #2 and companies are
20:45
not spending unnecessary money or having accidents or, you
20:51
know, toxicity or just expenses that are incurred as a result of
20:56
not having these conversations. I really believe by having them,
21:01
everybody wins at the end of the day.
21:04
Like, it's just the right thing to do.
21:05
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
21:07
And I, I mean, I'm just thinking about how that would play out,
21:10
right. And I agree with you 100%.
21:12
It's, we're not, maybe we'll never have a good answer for it,
21:16
right? But to your point, it's like, I
21:18
just think about how my family helped me, right?
21:21
And 'cause they had no idea what they were doing too.
21:24
And I mean, at least if we took someone aside, it's, it's really
21:29
hard though, right, to do that in a professional setting.
21:33
It's it's hard if we make it hard not to cut you off, but it
21:37
really is hard if we keep saying it's hard.
21:40
I mean, you and I just met. This isn't hard.
21:43
We're just people. We're just being people
21:45
together. We're just chatting.
21:47
You know, I'm coming to the conversation with no judgement
21:50
and support and you know, just the the priority of like showing
21:56
up for you. That's a hard for for me to do.
21:59
I don't think it's hard for you to do for people who get the
22:02
honor of coming and chatting with you like it it, it can be
22:06
hard. It can be complicated, but I I
22:10
do wonder if it needs to be hard and complicated.
22:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, we, I, I think there's
22:18
just a stigma around the workplace that we can't talk
22:21
about this stuff, right? I can't approach said
22:24
individual. What if I'm wrong?
22:25
There's all these things that are going through my head,
22:27
right? And chances are you're not wrong
22:28
if you're noticing some behaviors, right?
22:31
The chances are they are struggling with something.
22:33
So I mean, it could be as simple as like, hey, is there anything
22:38
I can do to help you? Right, exactly.
22:39
Is there anything that I could do?
22:42
I it looks like you're going through a tough time, right?
22:45
Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, it's not that complicated.
22:48
It's not that complicated and complicating it.
22:50
And, and, and that's part of the stigma.
22:53
Like that's part of the fear and the avoidance of I just like
22:58
this is too big, too messy, too unfamiliar and confusing for me
23:03
to step into the space. And what we're doing there is,
23:07
you know, again, well intended. Like I know we're not, you know,
23:10
wanting to hurt someone as a result of that.
23:12
But by continuing that narrative and that language, we're we're
23:16
continuing to stigmatize it. Again, at the end of the day, I
23:20
teach trauma informed practice this at Humbert College and and
23:23
I always say to my students, because they're so dedicated,
23:26
they're so committed, they're like, Oh my gosh, they like try
23:28
the professor Perry and I'm like, no, no, no, no, we're just
23:31
Alex is good. But, you know, just what if I
23:35
asked the wrong question or what if I, you know, I said as long
23:38
as you are doing two things. One, we have two ears, one
23:43
mouth. Listen more than let you talk.
23:45
I'm sure you know that. One, same thing here.
23:47
Just listening can go so far. And then #2 just simply ask,
23:52
like, what can I do to help? What do you need right now?
23:55
How nice is it when someone asks you, Anthony, what do you need
24:00
right now? Oh, my God, It's the best
24:04
question. What do you need right now?
24:06
Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, it's overwhelming too.
24:10
Sometimes it's like, I'm like, I don't even know.
24:11
I don't know, you tell me what I need.
24:13
But it's it's the ability when that person asks that question,
24:17
if they're able to not jump in when you don't know the answer,
24:21
because I do that too, right? Where if you ask someone for
24:23
help there, you have to pause and you have to be OK with
24:26
silence because it'll come out to your point, eventually it'll
24:29
come out right. But when it's, you know, I have
24:32
to. Do you want me to do this?
24:33
Do you want me to do that? It's like, dude, just.
24:34
I so I'm like, so one of those people 100%.
24:37
Silence is tough, yeah. Silence is tough.
24:40
Yeah, silence is tough. I mean, there could be also a
24:42
world where, you know, organizations and, and you know,
24:48
different companies actually include some people like us on
24:53
their team. I've thought about that.
24:56
Yeah. It's weird that you bring that
24:57
up. Yeah, I see there's a role for
24:59
that for. Sure, totally.
25:00
And I don't think it's like a counselor.
25:03
I don't think it's something like that because people just
25:05
already are like, OK, that's not going to be helpful.
25:08
This is no one uses Eaps. It has to be something that's
25:12
really authentic and the ability to like really connect with
25:16
people and understand and almost like maybe even like a
25:20
consultant, like just a place where people to be, you know,
25:24
able to openly talk. Because I noticed too, on the
25:27
flip side of things, being part of senior leadership, I've never
25:31
worked in an organization be like, we're just choosing to be
25:35
horrible. Like no one's choosing to do
25:38
things that are not great for their employees.
25:41
I've always worked somewhere where their intention is they
25:43
want to do best by their employees, by their company, and
25:47
they're managing again, these like really hard paradoxes that
25:52
don't work easily together. Having said that, you know,
25:57
again, those roles need need to ask for help, lean into
26:02
curiosity and work with experts who can help them identify some
26:08
things. And they might not be big, they
26:10
might be small, or they might be big.
26:12
But yeah, I do think there's a world where companies get are
26:19
more involved in this type of conversation with people who
26:24
have lived experience. Yeah, a mental health
26:26
consultant, right For the. For the company isn't that good.
26:29
Work at the company, yeah. And instead of HR, right?
26:33
Like you're a part of HR maybe, but you're the mental health
26:36
consultant. No one has to know that you when
26:39
saw the guy or girl or person, right?
26:40
No one has to know. And it could just be as simple
26:43
as resources. Yeah, I talked to so many people
26:45
to tell you that I have no idea what RAM clinics are.
26:48
They have no clue, right? And it's such a helpful
26:50
resource, right. Rapid addiction access, rapid
26:53
access addiction medicine. I've been there myself.
26:55
I've gone through it and it's a great, it's a great program.
26:59
Like I was able to go show up. They gave me resources all
27:03
covered under O hip, O hip, right?
27:05
And that's everyone's that's the biggest it's maybe you can talk
27:08
a little bit to this too. I don't have money.
27:11
How do I get sober? I need money to get sober.
27:14
Yeah. I hate hearing.
27:15
That I know it's it's brutal. So just the mental health thing.
27:19
I love what you said about a mental health consultant for the
27:22
like the organization someone can lean on.
27:25
I, I think even bigger of the mental health of an
27:29
organization, like the whole system of an organization that
27:34
was like a, a person, an entity. How is the mental health of that
27:38
entity? That's what I think could be
27:41
really cool. Anyways, you don't have money to
27:45
go to treatment. Yeah, this is a this is a hard
27:50
topic to talk about because it is a bit controversial these
27:54
days with things like involuntary treatment, what
28:00
seems like a push for privatized healthcare and many, many
28:06
organizations and nonprofits who actually do the work that needs
28:10
to be happening and have for a really, really long time just
28:14
like not getting funded properly.
28:17
OK, so I think maybe two-part answer 1 is if someone does if
28:23
if someone out there is struggling and we're.
28:26
Looking. At you, yeah, we're looking at
28:28
the camera. If, if this speaks to you, if
28:30
you're struggling and it feels like you can't afford treatment,
28:36
I would still call a treatment center.
28:38
So for the Canadian addiction treatment centers, one of my
28:41
favorite things about them is they have a refer relations
28:43
manager role and that role is really intended to help navigate
28:49
the different options people have because they're usually the
28:51
ones that work with different, Like you said, unions or
28:55
reference is what we call them, and that could be various
28:58
different organizations. Yeah.
28:59
It can be a number of different things, so I would still call.
29:03
Always call. I know it feels really defeating
29:05
and probably hopeless in some ways, but always call if you're
29:12
a person for yourself and, or you're working with someone as
29:16
like a social worker or or case manager or something like that.
29:21
Call and then ask questions like, you know, is the person
29:26
working? Are they a veteran?
29:29
I mean, there's, there's many people in the shelter system
29:33
that are veterans, which is not OK, but that can open
29:39
potentially a direct referral pathway for someone to get
29:42
access into treatment. You know, there's, there's other
29:48
part ways that people can ask, like partnerships.
29:50
I work really closely with an organization called Victim
29:53
Services. They have a treatment pathway
29:56
for survivors of human trafficking.
29:59
So again, in this system, like let's say if someone goes to a
30:03
R.E.M. clinic, to your point, and a case worker at a R.E.M.
30:07
Clinic notices like, OK, I'm really feeling like this
30:10
individual is fleeing, you know, a really dangerous situation.
30:16
If they know about this pathway, they can get the person in at no
30:20
expense. Like it's a funded pathway for
30:22
immediate access into treatment. So ask questions, even though it
30:27
may not always result in a funded option into treatment #2
30:33
if anyone out there is working with a team or is like a, like
30:39
myself, a member of a company like CHC, make sure your
30:43
resources are widely available because there's so many silos in
30:47
the system that we can increase people's chances and access to
30:52
treatment by working together. And then all of a sudden you get
30:56
to have these wonderful conversations, like, you know,
30:59
there's a fun, there's already established funding here, but
31:02
why don't we all come together to get more funding and get
31:06
people more access to treatment? So that's another maybe
31:11
perspective. But at the end of the day, this
31:14
is you've hit it right on the head.
31:16
This is the biggest challenge right now for recovery and
31:20
treatment. And it feels like it might be,
31:23
again, controversial to say, but it feels like recovery is
31:29
privileged in a lot of ways, which doesn't seem what not,
31:33
doesn't seem isn't equitable to people.
31:38
I mean, there is a part of that that's true though, right?
31:40
Like I'm doing the schooling right now for becoming a social
31:44
worker, and that's great. It's recognizing your privilege
31:48
in a lot of scenarios, right? If I didn't have support, I've
31:51
been to three rehabs. And if I didn't have, I remember
31:54
when I was 23 my mom calling public funded organization in
31:59
Toronto. And at that time I think it was
32:02
3 to 4 month wait list. But the other caveat too was I
32:05
had to be willing and call in. So she had this 23 year old kid,
32:09
didn't know what to do with him. I didn't want to stop drinking
32:11
or using. Right, right, right, right.
32:13
In that scenario, the only option really was to get into a
32:17
private treatment. And I'm, I'm grateful that I had
32:19
that experience. I don't know what would have
32:20
happened if I, if it went the other way.
32:22
Right. So there is a part of that where
32:25
I do have to recognize that there is a privilege.
32:27
But at the same time, I've met so many people in recovery that
32:31
have come from absolutely nothing.
32:33
Yeah. And gotten sober even without
32:35
rehab, right. They've gotten sober with 12
32:37
step meetings or SMART Recovery or whatever, whatever the
32:41
modality is in that scenario. Not everyone needs to go to
32:44
rehab, right I. Need to yeah, I mean, listen,
32:48
it's, it's something that I think I, I really believe in as
32:54
you know, the the most kind of terrible way of saying this, but
32:57
like bang for your buck, like you're gonna get the most
33:01
support in that time, you know then, you know obviously waiting
33:09
or doing individual sessions, but either way, the majority of
33:14
people probably cannot afford treatment and that's a problem.
33:18
So if we go back to just the, you know, the system, thinking
33:22
of it all, there's, there's, there's a lot of ways our system
33:28
needs to just kind of face the facts that the majority of
33:31
people don't have access to the supports they need.
33:34
And to your point, I also really struggle with the fact that our
33:39
system is a like a fail first mentality.
33:43
People have to suffer like one term.
33:45
I, I don't this, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, but
33:49
hitting rock bottom, Do I think that that's necessary for some
33:54
people? For sure.
33:56
Do I think that that's what we need to get to before people get
34:00
access to support? Absolutely not.
34:03
We are never going to get out of this whole the opiate crisis.
34:08
If our mentality is that people have to hit rock bottom, that is
34:12
people dying. That's not a rock bottom we
34:17
should be waiting for before action is taken.
34:21
I get that that's not always what people mean by saying those
34:24
words for sure, but there is something that is backwards
34:29
within our system, you know, and, and if you think about
34:33
substance use as a health issue, like a chronic health issue like
34:38
we do for cancer or something else, how many preventative
34:41
measures and resources are there out there to help us prevent
34:47
that chronic health issue from happening?
34:51
Yeah, it's the same thing. I've changed my mind on it.
34:53
I think I was very rigid with with that before.
34:57
Like I I really did believe that you had to.
34:59
And I get yeah. I mean, you mentioned it though,
35:01
it's it is subjective, right? My rock bottom is not my trauma
35:06
is somebody's Tuesday afternoon. I always say that right?
35:08
Like my my Tuesday afternoon is someone else's trauma, right?
35:11
And it's really subjective. I've, you know, I, I have in, in
35:17
comparison, you know, I've been hearing recovery stories for 10
35:21
years now. And in comparison, my bottom is
35:24
very high comparatively, right? I've heard a lot of really rough
35:28
things going on in people's lives.
35:30
And I do think that somebody does have to come to a place,
35:36
though, where, you know, there's a piece of recovery literature
35:39
that mentions incomprehensible demoral, pitiful and
35:46
incomprehensible demoralization like this, just this point of
35:49
like, Oh my God, like, I'll do whatever it takes, right?
35:53
But I do also see how that can be dangerous, right?
35:57
Because it's very reactive and not proactive.
35:59
Exactly. So I'm just thinking like what
36:01
is? What is a more proactive
36:05
approach? That's my thought with it.
36:07
And I don't know if I I don't know if I have the answer.
36:09
I don't know if you have the answer to that, but how can we
36:11
be more proactive? Yeah, well, what comes to mind
36:15
for me is and just going off your point about the I love your
36:20
trauma is someone else's Tuesday.
36:21
I love that I might steal it. Steal.
36:23
It credit to you, of course, I probably stole it.
36:26
But I, I think that's exactly, it is like how how scary it is
36:31
that if, you know, I'm walking around looking like I'm doing
36:37
just fine when really Alex is at her rock bottom and no one is
36:42
seeing that because I don't feel like I can say it.
36:45
Like that's scary to me, Anthony.
36:47
That's, that's like, to me, that makes exact sense as to why
36:51
people feel so alone, why they feel so ashamed, why there's so
36:55
much stigma. So, yeah, I think keep like we
36:59
need to keep having those conversations for sure.
37:02
And then the system reactivity versus proactive.
37:08
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question.
37:13
What comes to mind is really individualizing.
37:16
I, I always, I I've not always shouldn't say always and never.
37:20
But I often hear myself say that we need to invest in people
37:27
individually. Really, if we could live in a
37:30
world where, you know, Anthony was looked at as Anthony in this
37:34
like all that Anthony is and where he is and what he needs
37:40
and design his own system around him or like resources or
37:45
treatment plan for him. And then Alex is invested.
37:49
I'm held. I'm kind of like looked at as
37:52
this, you know, and whole person that needs investment into that
37:58
person. I mean, could a design, I don't
38:01
know, I'm just like thinking out loud right now.
38:03
But right now the public sectors, we all pay into it.
38:08
Everyone gets access to basically the same things.
38:11
But I mean, I don't know is, is there a world where, you know,
38:14
here's the funds that you have on an individual basis and use
38:18
them as needed. And you might need them for one
38:21
thing, and I might need them for something else, but we have
38:24
access to them. And then, you know, that does
38:28
start staring us possibly into like maybe what feels like
38:32
privatized healthcare, which I'm I'm not necessarily a supporter
38:36
of, but something needs to change.
38:38
At the end of the day, something needs to change because it's not
38:42
working. And it's it's more than not
38:45
working, it's hurting people. Yeah, I think, you know, as
38:48
you're talking there, I think I, I always think about like how,
38:51
what can I do right today? What are the small cause?
38:54
Change does happen over small actions, right?
38:57
In my experience, and I think when it comes to sharing my
39:01
story and getting on social media and doing this podcast,
39:07
maybe it opens up somebody earlier in their life saying,
39:10
hey, I think something's wrong here.
39:12
I'm not using like John is down the street, like everyone's
39:17
going home at the end of the night and I'm in the corner
39:19
doing more drugs. I don't like this right?
39:23
And it just the ability. So when when I think proactive
39:26
like very simply, it's like putting up your hand a little
39:29
bit earlier. Totally.
39:31
Rather than I'm burning in a fire here, mom or dad or loved
39:34
one, I think this might be a problem and then we can
39:37
intervene and start doing something about.
39:38
It Yeah, like if you, if you we all know ourselves the best.
39:42
I mean, we, we the world really likes to pull us away from our
39:46
gut. Gut feeling as much as I can,
39:50
but the, you know, trust your gut in every sense and if you
39:55
feel like you're going down a path where you're starting to
39:57
notice, like I remember I've never struggled with substances
40:01
myself, but I remember when I was working in the shelter
40:04
system, I would respond to so many overdose, overdoses and
40:07
deaths and just. Things that, you know, we don't
40:12
need to talk about. But I would get home so late and
40:15
the only way I could fall asleep was drinking a glass of wine.
40:18
And I would get up in the morning.
40:19
And and that went so quickly from a glass of wine once or
40:24
twice in a week to like almost a bottle in a night like it was,
40:29
it was. And then I had to stop myself
40:31
and just say, this is not this is not good.
40:35
This is over what my body is not doing OK right now.
40:40
And, and on many levels, like not even just the, if we look at
40:44
as the, the drinking or substance or addiction as the,
40:48
the symptom of what's going on. I was stressed.
40:52
I was, you know, working probably 90 hours a week.
40:57
You know, I was being exposed to all of these different things,
40:59
which many, many people are still currently struggling with
41:03
and experiencing as frontline staff.
41:06
And there was just no support. And that was the only way I felt
41:10
I could, you know, get some sleep and not think about the
41:13
images I just saw or, you know, yeah, just try and get a bit of
41:18
rest. So I mean, trust that instinct
41:21
and that gut because if you know, things are going to be a
41:24
couple months away, like you shared a treatment center in
41:27
Toronto said there was going to be a three or four month wait,
41:30
let's start getting people ready for that three or four months.
41:34
You know, and it doesn't mean that you're not, you don't need
41:37
help just because you can make it that three to four months.
41:41
You know, like if anything, that's just that's going to be,
41:46
it's all going to be more effective for you because you're
41:48
taking it into your own hands and you're asking for help when
41:52
you start to feel like the struggle starts.
41:56
You know, so I, I agree with you.
41:58
I think getting that hand up sooner and earlier is great.
42:01
And you know, family members, if that's something to normalize it
42:06
in your family, have these hard conversations because it's just
42:10
a reality of the world. You know, it, the world has
42:13
changed. Anthony, I don't know how old
42:15
you are. I'm younger, obviously, but
42:23
maybe we're around the same age. When we were younger, a lot of
42:27
this stuff, a lot of the stress that didn't exist.
42:29
We're having different conversations around the dinner
42:31
table. We're doing different things as
42:33
a kid, You know, we've got to really try to keep having those
42:37
connected conversations so that at that first sign have help.
42:42
We can be like, ah, OK, we've got to like step in now.
42:46
As opposed to it just like bubbling it under the surface
42:49
and then it fucking explodes. Oh well.
42:51
Sweep it under the rug. Yeah.
42:53
That was a master of that. We.
42:58
I'm just thinking about like, yeah, like, like vaping is one
43:01
of those things now where it's like that's coming into.
43:04
That wasn't a problem when I was a kid, right?
43:06
I was born in 92. So I know you're you're dying to
43:09
know. So there you go.
43:11
Not younger than you. But yeah, it's like my, you
43:16
know, I grew up in a, in a culture where, and this is no
43:19
fault of my parents at all, right?
43:21
I had a very good life growing up.
43:23
Very good. I had everything I needed and
43:24
wanted. It was easier for me to lie than
43:27
it was to tell the truth because I was so scared of consequences.
43:29
And I believe that's not what made me a drug addict.
43:32
There's no. Yeah.
43:33
Yeah, yeah. But it's part of the condition.
43:34
Part of the whole thing. And then this whole, like, my
43:37
whole life, if you were to draw a corroding thread through
43:40
anytime I picked up drugs and alcohol and went down the wrong
43:42
path, it was always not being honest.
43:44
Like that is like the number one thing.
43:46
It was secrets. And I'm not telling you I'm
43:49
going to lie about it because I'm scared of the consequences.
43:52
And then it just becomes like this habitual thing right where
43:54
you're like, you know, what did you do yesterday?
43:56
And I'm like, I went out to, I'll just lie about that because
43:59
I'm embarrassed for or it doesn't even make sense.
44:02
There's no reason sometimes. And I'll just lie, you know what
44:04
I mean? So that's something that I
44:07
struggle with. Yeah, we don't try to think of
44:14
I, I wish we had more time, but we don't.
44:16
But you'll have to come back, or we will have to reconvene in
44:19
another way, collab serration style.
44:22
Absolutely. What, let me ask you this, what,
44:25
What do you hope people get out of your work and your story or
44:31
message? I hope that people get a bit of
44:39
validation and feeling heard and seen.
44:43
I got you guys. I have a commitment to carrying
44:47
forward every person I've come across professionally.
44:52
A client, someone in a shelter system doesn't matter.
44:56
Everyone's equal and your stories matter.
45:00
And so I hope that feels, you know, validating today and then
45:07
from, you know, the work I am doing and going forward want to
45:11
do is, I mean, it's the same thing as when I started as an
45:15
addictions counselor. I just want to help people.
45:18
It's in a different capacity now for sure.
45:20
But I think it's in a potentially a capacity that, you
45:24
know, could really be system changing and might really start
45:31
to make the world a kinder and better place for people.
45:35
So not to say I'm gonna do all of that myself, but just one
45:39
conversation at a time, hopefully.
45:41
A cog in the wheel, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:43
I mean, exactly. Again, it's small things, you
45:45
know? Am I being a kind person today?
45:48
Am I listening instead of waiting to talk?
45:51
Right. Yeah.
45:52
I love the two years when I or sorry, Two, one month, two
45:55
years. Are you a minion?
46:00
Are those minions? Maybe if you go into Lake
46:02
Ontario too. Yeah, seriously.
46:04
Okay, well we'll do a part time. Part 2 We'll have to do a Part 2
46:08
where can. People listen to your podcast as
46:11
somewhere you're supposed. To no okay, they know.
46:13
Okay, sorry OK Are you on social media?
46:17
Where do we find you? I'm just a person.
46:20
Let's make it about you. On social media, I don't really
46:22
have like a big following or anything, but stay tuned.
46:26
Maybe by Part 2, Part 2, I'll, I'll have a handle.
46:31
Is that what they're called? Yeah, yeah, whatever.
46:33
Elder millennial over here. Is your account on private or
46:36
public? Private.
46:37
OK, yeah, that says everything right there.
46:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely private.
46:41
I have a private account too, but yeah, everything's over
46:44
there. Yeah.
46:45
Private person, listen, I appreciate the the work that
46:47
you're doing. Seriously, nothing gets done
46:49
unless we change high level systems.
46:53
You got it right there. We could just be keep
46:54
complaining until we're blue in the face and nothing changes if
46:59
we don't do so on. Top start to have.
47:02
I'm really excited about this role I'm stepping in to next
47:05
week. As someone who brings expertise
47:07
on substance use, we need more of that in the workplace.
47:12
And just if anyone out there needs help, ask for help.
47:15
We got you. You're loved, you're worthy and
47:20
proud of you for being courageous to ask for it.
47:23
Thanks so much, Alex. You're welcome.
47:25
Thank you. Thanks for listening.
47:27
Please help us grow the channel and like, share and subscribe
47:31
for more content. The discussions and stories
47:33
shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational
47:36
purposes only. This content is not a substitute
47:39
for professional medical advice, addiction treatment, or therapy.
47:43
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction,
47:46
please consult A licensed physician, addiction specialist,
47:49
or mental health professional. You are no longer alone.