Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Lynn Harris: Not Every Story Needs a Silver Lining — Comedy, Trauma & Culture Change
Transcript
- Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm your host, Paige Williams. Come along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence by learning from 100 thinkers, creators, researchers, people whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together, we're exploring a question at the center of how we become who we are. How malleable are the stories we live by, and what does it take to change one? Across these conversations, we're examining the stories we inherit. The stories that become identity, and the human capacities that allow us to recognize, question, revise, and live beyond them. What I learned through this series will help shape the field of narrative intelligence and the foundational book that I'm writing about it. This is 100 Stories. Today I'm speaking with Lynn Harris, who's a writer and producer with expertise in comedy and culture change. I'm so excited to have Lynn on the program to talk about humor and narrative and what it might mean. So Lynn, welcome to the show. And I would love Lynn Harris: Thank you. Paige Williams: to kick off with you. You're welcome, telling us about your work that has most shaped how you see yourself in the world. Lynn Harris: is that all? well I I have really been shaped by I I like to think about it as the stuff that keeps me up at that gets me out of bed in the morning and keeps me up at night. And by keeps me up at night I mean mainly TV. I Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: love I love pop culture. And I also think that it super matters. I think that pop culture and comedy are certainly amazing at being like distracting and Netflix and chilling and helping us kind of check out, but that's not the only thing that they can do. They can really drive culture change. So what gets me out of bed in the morning is like, how do we fix the world? And what keeps me up at night is TV. So I am not the first or only person to do this, but I've I've really tried to build a career around both. How can we generate the culture change that we need? I'm happy to talk about what I mean by culture change using comedy and pop culture tools that are both potent and fun. Paige Williams: I wanna hear about that, but first I wanna ask you who's doing that well right now? What show do you think is has is just killing it? Lynn Harris: man, you know, it's almost it's almost universal now. I mean, let's just take one this is very direct and obvious, but it just popped into my head. very direct and obvious and concrete example is the current season of Ted Lasso. Paige Williams: Yes, I was just thinking that. Lynn Harris: Right? Where it's it's it's I'm not sure it's it's revealing it's I'm not sure it's like revealing truths we didn't know about, but the way it's portraying the depth of the problem, the problem being structural and individual sexism and in fact misogyny in women's sports, which by the way is stupid and terrible because for a bunch of reasons, because sports is a job and women are people. but also because of like how much how much money are we losing by not investing in women's sports? Look at the WNBA here. It's almost like a good problem to have. It's like almost impossible to afford their tickets, you know? and when they first started, we were like, Will you pe please someone pay attention and look where they are now? Anyway, Ted Lasso was doing a great job of using humor to expose and critique this problem of of disrespect for and lack of support for women's soccer in England slash everywhere. Even just using jokes to, you know, and he meets them in the locker room and he's like, So this is your locker room? And it's like some extra room and they're like, Yes, we have access to it every other Wednesday and he's like, you know, so it it's it it it has the capacity to show, not tell what these problems are. And we don't yet know what the solution is because we're still in the middle of the season. Paige Williams: And as a writer and producer of comedy who wants to affect culture change, how does that show up in your work? What are you doing? What have you done? Like what are you excited about right now? What's you said it gets me up in the morning. So tell me more about Lynn Harris: Yeah. Paige Williams: that. Lynn Harris: my gosh, so many things. Well, we are p I were I founded a company called Gold Comedy. And we are a combo deal. We're an online comedy school and professional network and content studio that supports in particular women and other others to succeed in their comedy careers, in their comedy-inspired side hustles and passion projects, all you know, because as with sports. Women are people and comedy's a job, but also because comedy is, as we're talking about now, a cultural force. So it matters who makes it. Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: And so it matters, you know, it matters not just because we can use comedy and pop culture to really kind of message around things and really show problems rather than lecture people about problems, as with Ted Lasso. But also we can use comedy just or or we can drive culture change just depending on who's showing up. In other words, if you go to see if you go to if you go see like a stand-up show and you one of the comics, I hope, happens to not be a straight white dude. And the this is kind of like well, stay with me, but you in in that moment, that person comes up to tell jokes, and the social contract you have there is that that person talks for eight minutes and you listen. They might not be talking about issues. They not but they might not be talking about anything that's like advocacy. They might not be calling for social change. They might just be talking about like their weird family and their dumb job. But in that moment, there is like a little moment of change that happens because it's really not normal in our society that we sit and listen and yes, laugh, but listen. to someone who's not a straight white dude talk for eight minutes. And so it's not only about the topic or the mission or the goal or the agenda of of a project. It's about just like literally who's talking and who's in charge. So a thing that we're excited about now is that we we're actually re shooting this very shortly. as in this Monday, we're shooting a micro a ver what they're call what the kids are calling verticals now, a vertical micro comedy with someone w with a very active and hilarious member of Gold who is both a retired high school art teacher, an active artist and painter, an accomplished comedian, and a lifelong stoner. And the title of the series is high art and what's gonna happen, her name is Rocky, and what's gonna happen is Rocky is going to, you know, sit in her studio and comedians are gonna come in and they're gonna chit-chat and while they're talking, they're all high. And while they're talking, Rocky's gonna paint their aura. So instead of drunk, it's like drunk art, basically. Instead of drunk history is high art. And I'm excited about that because it first of all, everyone involved is either A woman, nonbinary or a person of color, including Rocky. And so that's just a thing. You know, it's just ever people tell us all the time that how cool it is to be on set, with no bro vibe. And the other thing is that just to make this very brief, but it's important, it's hard to if you're running a cannabis based business, it is hard for you to advertise because The rules haven't caught up with the reality that it's like legal and normal. And so the you wind up just being kind of muzzled wherever you try to advertise. A solution is branded content, like what we're doing, where we're able to showcase brands as an organic part of the show. And why that matters in in a a social justice kind of way is that the cannabis industry has been you know, it it it the the folks who are especially affected by the difficulty of advertising are the smaller cannabis businesses, many, many, many, many of which are run by women and people of color. So we sought out sponsors and partners who in b in you know in weed related businesses who are women and people of color and so that we can in our own small funny way, literally micro funny way, help them get around this problem and get their stuff seen. Paige Williams: Tell me about one of the most transformative moments of your life and if that story's changed over time and and maybe in relation to who you are today. Lynn Harris: Well, I think I mean there's there's there's a bunch. you know, Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: there's like death and things like that, but I think the one that could be relevant here is in there's the dot com boom and the dot com bust. And in the The the very short version of the story is that I co-created with my creative partner, Chris Kobb, a superhero character named Breakup Girl, who helps people sh you know, we have superheroes who can bend steel bars. How about one who can mend broken hearts? And this was it c this actually was the first as far as I know, the first multimedia internet success story. This was in nineteen ninety eight. So, like on the internet it was like us and NASA. Like that, you know, that was and and we we cut to we've got books, we've got a live show at Gotham Comedy Club, we've got we're on T V all the time, we our website is like practically crashing from all the traffic and we get acquired by Oxygen. And we have an animated a series of interstitials on oxygen, another it it's huge. There's a cult following. Massive and I don't have numbers behind this because we didn't have them then. And we had a great deal when we got acquired. And you know, sort of no regrets on entering in we we we were acquired and hired as executive producers. It's hard for me to overstate what a big deal this brand was for Chris and me. It wasn't just a project. It wasn't like, a couple of founders, you know, a start you know, start up here, start up of the start of the year, kind of, you know, what's next for us? that didn't work, what's next? Like, it was our life. We lived and breathed it. It was massive and really my creative identity. Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: And then it all went poof in the dot com bust because we had sold the property. You know, we did. And we didn't enter into a bad deal. Like I ne we never that was never the the case. And I think but but it but it was horrifying when it went poof. We had not like it was just gone. Cut two. we did Blah blah blah, legal stuff, blah, blah, blah, horrible stuff, blah, blah, blah, negotiation, blah, blah, blah, lawyers, blah, blah, blah, drinks. but we we do have we do have the property back now. but it was awful. And I honestly, as as proud as I am of everything else that I've done, I don't I feel like I've never quite gotten my groove back to where it was in like 1999. And that's the transformative piece. Like w Was it like is that a good transformation? No. But I think but I what I kinda learn well a lot of things that I learned from that are first of all, looking back, well, let me put it this way, I'll keep it short. I think that One of the things I learned is that actually not every story has to have a silver lining. Like, actually, you don't have to give yourself the pressure to learn from it. Like, it sucked. It just sucked. I I'm not gonna say that anything good came out of it. You know, and it doesn't mean I'm like still actively bitter every day. I'm not. This was in nineteen ninety-nine, you know, but I am a little. but I I I I kept trying to be like, Well at least or but you know what ha but d but bec what happened instead was and I'm like, No It just sucked. And there's like I wouldn't have done anything differently. I wouldn't I you know, and so I don't I just really wanna release us I don't know if it's an especially women kind of thing, but I I I think it's important to release yourself from the pressure to like make it mean something. Paige Williams: How did it affect your own comedy and writing? That that that absolute heart sinking, soul screeching moment. Did things get funnier? Did they get bleak? Yeah. Lynn Harris: No. No. I mean, nothing. I mean here's I gotta give you a very material answer to that question, which is, you know, Chris and I had to go figure out w what what we were doing. And eventually, yeah, we did get the we got the property back, but by then we had to have moved on, you know, to to at least lit you know, from nine to five, you know, to pay our to pay the rent, etcetera. So, and what was hard was yeah, starting with just having to r just having to literally be like, I guess all I had always been a magazine writer, so I wasn't like I I I wasn't completely starting from square one at all. but what was i it I it wasn't about like how do I get how do I find the you know how do I find the humor in this, which is definitely a topic that we should talk about. Like there's nothing wrong with that topic. it's a great topic, but this wasn't that. Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: it was just it was like a piece of my soul that I'm not gonna get back. and so Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: the focus afterwards was just logistically not what do I how do I process this in my work, but just like literally what else am I gonna do? Like literally. and Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: I just threw myself back into magazines. I mean honestly I can't remember what was I doing at the beginning of the I threw I threw myself back into magazines, which is fine. You know, I d it was at the time it was still pretty it was only it hadn't gotten bad yet. magazine. So I had a minute. Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. I love this idea that you don't have to find a silver lying in a transformational story. I I think that great comedy comes out of pain and that's why I asked that question. So how do you see that? Lynn Harris: for sure. Yes. and I liter I literally wrote a book and I totally forgot. I okay. It was a long time ago. Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. Lynn Harris: I now to be clear, I did write a book and it was called what was the first one? It was called Miss Media. And it let me just stipulate that it was not a like fictionalized tell all of what actually happened at Oxygen. Like it's just not. But it was inspired by What happened, not in a not in a direct way. Like literally, if I had just written a shocking like a shocking tell-all would not have been shocking, it would have been boring. Like it. But I remember Chris, my creative partner, s like we we joked that like at the time, and I don't know I I honestly don't know what it would look like now with fresh eyes and like being older, but at the time we felt that oxygen handled the whole thing terribly. Like shockingly badly. And Chris joked he's like it's almost as if power is far it's almost as if forces more powerful than even incompetence are at work. And I thought that was so funny that I was like, wait, what if they were? Like what if there was a conspiracy? And what if there and I and my brain went blah because that's how my brain works, and so yeah, I did make comedy because I made a whole satire, not of oxygen at all. but of the women's w d w media for women at the time that pretended to be that was really a frenemy to women. Like it pretended to be your friend, but it was really undermining you. And w all you know, it was still just the patriarchy in w in women's clothing, so to speak. That doesn't really work as a metaphor. But anyway, so that was the book. And it was the book is very funny to the point where I went back to it and I was like, I should republish this. so anyway, that's what I did. I did make it into comedy page. I completely forgot I did. Paige Williams: Hilarious. Lynn Harris: I I do think the book I I do think writing the book made me like feel better, quote unquote, because not because it like processed the trauma, which it didn't, and we can talk about comedy and trauma and where that where that lives, but because I was able to it didn't it It wasn't a project of me grinding my gears, still being angry. Because and by the way, there's nothing wrong with grind still being angry. It's just not gonna make great art i if you're grinding your gears. what it did was because I elevated the whole story to actually it was this whole this is not a spoiler, a whole giant conspiracy. It just it it made sort of imagination take over and it made it not about me. It made it not about this like it was Fiction with some details inspired by it. But it was just a a it was a an act of fiction and it was an act of imagination and it was an act of satire of a thing that really is bad and a thing that is much worse than any skullduggery on on oxygen's part. So I just kind of deflected and like had my inspiration in this terrible thing, but then like w w like went over here to the funny place. and that's what that I it did make me feel better. Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Growing up, what did you learn about what you could say out loud, or maybe what you couldn't say out loud? Lynn Harris: Yeah, Okay, this is a probably a little dark. probably There were just th we I didn't I grew up in a very like yappy talky house, so it wasn't like, you know, children come to dinner. You know, it wasn't like the governess Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lynn Harris: will bring you you know, but and there was only me, so not children, but I think when I was little, there was definitely a kind of possibly even unintentional cone of silence around yes, the Holocaust. because my my very clo my mom's first cousin, who's much younger was the only person in our family to have survived and talk about a story. she this I'll I'm sparing you the not sparing you, it's a great st it's a a ma it's a showstopper of a story. but she came to live with my mom's family after the war and so they sort of grew up together even though my my mom was much younger, did I get that wrong? My mom was younger. And so and we were very close. So her story really colored just our whole lives. And and so I remember like feeling like something happened and I'm I I I feel like I'm not supposed to ask about it. But I also made that up 'cause when I finally did ask about it, my mom was like, I've been waiting, I've been wondering when you were gonna ask me. Which I think was fine on her part. She wasn't like trying to keep it silent, like what happened to cousin Regina, but I think she was just kind of figuring that I'm I'll ask when I'm ready to know. But she didn't walk around acting like a person with trauma, but she just did that. She just did things that like were normal to me, but then only really make sense in in in the context of generational trauma. and, you know, it it certainly like cemented my Jewish identity. It's like all those things. even to the point of like it's so simplistic and kind of dumb, but like Whenever I it even like with my first kid Spot mitzvah, I remember like having the dumbest but like I guess understandable feeling of like, look at the look at all these look at all these Jews gathered here today to celebrate the launch, you know, the the the passing death the line, you know, the generational change and the generational survival. And I just, fuck you, Nazis, you know. and I have this sort of silly, like, but understandable reaction to all of like even the happy things. or especially the happy things, like, haha. so yeah, I mean I can I could spend I couldn't I could never cover all of that in in one in one YouTube chat. But it's I mean it's it's I I I i yeah, it's seismic. Especially Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: when it's that close. Paige Williams: Yeah. That's a huge story to grow under grow up with. So close. Lynn Harris: Right. Right. Paige Williams: so let's talk about how comedy serves generational trauma and vice versa from your experience. Lynn Harris: Yeah. I mean yeah, totally. And and I mean the bigger sort of the the context is how does comedy what role does comedy have to play in things that are abs are the opposite of funny? Paige Williams: Right. Lynn Harris: And and the Paige Williams: Like something that's so it almost impossible to our mind still today. I mean, you've lived with it. But it's hard to Lynn Harris: Right. Right. Still impossible, you know. Paige Williams: I mean, like it it's just it's so hard to comprehend what happened in the Holocaust. Even when you go, even when you read the books, even when you, you know. Lynn Harris: Right. It's impossi it's it's impossible. I know, it's impossible. and so that raises all sorts of questions about like, okay, so who gets to you well, I f just let me stipulate that I actually believe that no topic is off limits. Like, I can't think of a topic that's off limits for comedy. But that's the topic. It's not the joke. Like You know, that any Paige Williams: yeah. Lynn Harris: t you any topic. And so then you have to think, okay, what's the joke? And I mean literally what's the I mean yes, I do mean literally what's the joke, but what's the basis of the joke? Who are you making fun of? Who are you in the first place in this story? what's your goal? What are you trying to expose? What are you trying to reveal? What are you trying to illuminate? Where's the laugh? Is it at anyone's expense? And if so, it better be the Nazis. You know, like I mean, or or or it better be about a shared experience. That we a shared relatable experience and and etcetera, et cetera. So, same goes for anything that feels too that feels terrible, any kind you know, you know The sexual assault, you know, murder. Yeah, I mean y it's all on it's all on limits. It's just or as Judy Gold says, one of my favorite comics, she's like, You can just make a joke about anything, but the harder the topic, the funnier the joke has to be. She's like, you can do it. And then also, like, I mean, you can feel however you want if someone doesn't like the joke, but just know that someone's like if someone doesn't like it they're not wrong. They can have whatever opinion they want. And like if and also like typically people who get upset about that are people who do like dark jokes with the goal of being provocative. Which I think is a bad goal. Paige Williams: Mm. Lynn Harris: The goal is to be a comedian. I don't know. Like provocative is always like a it's a it's a word that hides like a bad agenda. It's like they're it's Paige Williams: Mm-hmm. Lynn Harris: like you're daring someone to like I I mean, and not that great comics aren't provocative, of course, you know. And that's it's fine. But if that's your goal, I'm just gonna I'm gonna be provocative. Okay, dude. It's probably not gonna be funny. But are you going to be funny? That's your job. You know. So anyway, I could go on about this. But I think the I guess a a a perhaps a a more I don't know if it's how universal it is, but a a very a a a timely example would be what we all did about September eleventh, when we really thought and people there is an analogue to this in the Holocaust, but we really thought like we will never laugh again. And that wasn't like, I'm out of a job. It meant like it was a soul thing, like we will never laugh again, individually or as a country. And little by little, I think the onion led the way, it figured out they were the first publication to kind of to come back, basically, in that context. And and what they figured out was not they didn't make a new rule, but they followed the rule of of what would be funny in this case. And the rule and the what's funny was not of course about certainly not about the victims. maybe about the terrorists, but of course, sure, you could be punching up, but even that doesn't feel like a that just feels ugly. But what about our what about not the thing that happened, but how we responded to it? And that's why I think their jokes were the best and the ones that led the way, because my favorite one of all was about the response of like, especially the the the people in the mi i who weren't in, you know, New York or or Pennsylvania or or DC who nonetheless felt this incredible shock, but didn't know what to do with it 'cause their lives continued normally. And th that's why my favorite one, my favorite headline from The Onion was, Not knowing what else to do, Nebraska woman bakes flag cake. And I've read it was Nebraska, if it was Nebraska whatever. But the point was, and I thought that was such a sweet joke. It's not making fun of the Nebraska woman. It's it's illuminating the feeling of not knowing what to do. Literally Paige Williams: Right. Lynn Harris: it was in the headline, not knowing what to do. Like that is a thing that everyone that like pretty much everybody had in common. and and that was just sort of a whimsical way to illuminate it. And that's where you can find the humor in the not the bad thing, but the but your reaction to it, people's reaction to it, the cultural response to it. Same thing if I may switch gears, same thing with with with like sexual assault and rape culture. Is it funny to make fun of it a an incident? Probably not. That's gonna be a hard one. But can you make fun of rape culture? my god, yes. And that's the it's not the response to it, but it's what cre or yeah, sure, it could be the response to it. You could be you know, you could make fun of the people who are like, But he's the swim captain. Like, that's punching up and it's making fun of the response, not like diminishing this hor the horrible incident. Paige Williams: Right. Awesome. Thanks for taking us through that. What can humor do to a dominant story that argument or information cannot do? Lynn Harris: Well, it can make people listen, right? You can make you i i comedy when you make people laugh, you make people listen. So let's take another favorite this is a few years ago, but another favorite example of, you know, pop culture mixed with social change that I that I like is One Day at a time. The reboot, which is about a Cuban family, their their Their mom is i is, you know, is actually her status is unclear, it's a whole thing. but the but most of the time they're just doing family things like do your homework and what should I make for you, you know, yeah, but you don't like dinner, but that's what I made. Do the dishes, you know, just hu you know, fam you know, regular family stuff. But then every so often there would they would mix in storylines that had to do with their with their culture, with their, you know, being brown, their immigration set whatever it was. And And th and they did that after they'd won your trust and your love as a sort of a a quote unquote normal American family. And that's when you start to have the they build this empathy and trust, and you're like, no, my friends, my neighbors, are actually nervous. about XYZ. They're actually fearful about XYZ. They're actually facing XYZ challenge. And then you have this compassion for them in a way, and not I don't mean that in a condescending way, but real like human to human compassion. it's relatable. You know, you're like, what if my family didn't feel stable in its home or whatever. Like you're and you can accomplish that with the disarming and kind of s sneaky fun medium of comedy much more than if I said, listen, here's my TED talk about the plight of undocumented or or second generation immigrant families. Like it might be a great TED talk, but I'm not gonna build relatability. I mean I could, but I you know, I it won't happen the same way as it would with a sitcom that you're watching week after week. No matter how good the TED talk. Paige Williams: Yeah, wh why is that? Like what is it about human nature in the way that we are like sense making machines through story that a a a sitcom is gonna hold more value, weight, change things more than like a documentary? Lynn Harris: I think it's relatability. I think and even I mean, and no shade to documentaries. but they set out with a different job. They set out to do a different job, or at least to deliver information a different way. It's not like they try to do it as well as it comes and fail. It's just a different it's a different genre. But I think the magic of storytelling, and I'm not the only one who says this, but it's a it's sort of an amazing paradox that is that the more specific you are in the story that you're telling, the more relatable you are, which is weird. Right? So like if I told you a story about if I'm telling you about me, you know, growing up an only child in historic Lexington, Massachusetts and being a nerd and being a tour guide and having a professor for a dad, you know, just like nerd, theme nerd, only child nerd, right? I'm telling you this story and you had ten brothers and sisters. You grew up in the city. You your house was quiet. I don't know. Like not like nothing specific. But if I tell you my story with very specific ways, details, it helps you imagine it, it helps you visualize it, and once you're there, then you connect to the themes. So the theme of my story might be belonging, you know, or it might be not belonging, or it might be competing for t I don't know, or or loneliness, I don't know. So once you're into the story, because it's so vivid, no matter whether it's like you or not, it doesn't matter. What you get to is the primal human stuff that you have in common. But it's the st the vividness of the story and the specificity of the story that draws you in, whether or not it has anything to do with you. Paige Williams: Beautiful. Have you ever told a joke or a story that meant one thing to you, but the audience heard something completely different? And what did that teach you about who controls meaning? Lynn Harris: Probably. I think that happens. You know when I think that really happens? I think that really happens less so on stage, because well, let's put it this way, I think it really for sure happens on the printed page. Because the number of times, and I was a journalist for many, many years, and I still write in public, but I the number of times that people would comment and argue with a thing I didn't say like that I literally just did not say or was the opposite of what I had said. I mean I can't even it's I I can't count. And this is not not just me. It's common, right? And so so for you know and and so and so often to you know if I to get specific here, like so often when when women write about something that there was a recent example that I'm trying to think of That was just far too on the nose. It was like, I you know, let's let's let's give you an on-the-nose, but actually real example. If women, if a woman writes an article about mansplaining, I guarantee you, men are going to come and mansplain what they got wrong. And I'm joking, but it's it's literally true. And you just you sit back and watch it happen. So that tells me, to answer the second part of your question, that tells me who's in power. Like that they have no just n the the the dudes responding to that are I can't comment on them as individuals necessarily, but they're a a product of a culture that tells them they're right no matter what. That tells them they're right, even when they just read an article about how they always go around telling people that they're right. I mean they can't it's so there you go. Paige Williams: Yeah, they don't recognize the narrative that they're living in that is being written about. Do you think humor and I mean comedy in any form, writing, TV, whatever, do you think it helps us see more clearly or does it help us avoid it? Is it a combination? Lynn Harris: People do talk about how, like, my self my defense mechanism is I deflect with jokes. And I think that's fine. I mean, I think that's true. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. You know, whatever gets you through the night, I'm not sure that's harmful. I'm not sure that it's I I'm not sure that just because it's a defense mechanism it's bad. We like defen defense is good. Like w I mean, you know You know, that's why we have, you know, baseball gloves. You know what I mean? Like it's it's i the goalie wears a mask. Like we like it's it's it's it it's like logical. I don't think that we should walk around the world without a defense mechanism. What what are you talking about here? So but at the same time, sure, there's probably I'm not a psychologist, but there's probably a point where you're you know, maybe you're missing an opportunity to really explore something that you could explore instead of deflecting. so yeah, sure. I mean people definitely do that. I but yeah, at the same time there's a whole other world of comedy that does illuminate that where people really comics and writers make themselves vulnerable where they or where they really dig into a difficult or traumatic topic. probably ideally after they've like dealt with it to some degree. In other words, like it like w i it shouldn't be their journal. it should be that, you know, that they've the best comedy will come after they've done some enough processing that they can hold it at a distance and kind of look at it and talk about it rather than having it be running them. but yeah, so I think it's I I just think that there's just different ways that that that comedy and joking can be used and if it's a defense mechanism then probably you need it and or in that moment and if it's Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: not then you're probably making some really illuminating comedy. Paige Williams: I always think that poets and comedians are the smartest people because Lynn Harris: Ha ha. Paige Williams: they know how to like observe the world and then make meaning of it in a way that isn't just like a journal entry. It's really chosen words of how to land the joke or how to create a a a poem that where everyone identifies with that feeling of whatever the experience was. Do Lynn Harris: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: you do you think that that's true? Do you think comedians are are maybe a little have a little bit maybe it's narrative intelligence that they're just a little bit smarter in some way to be able to get the joke, to actually write the joke that makes meaning in a funny way. Lynn Harris: Think I wouldn't call it smarter. I I do think that sure there are people who, for whatever mysterious reason, wind up being, you know, better cooks, better athletes, better, you know, those things that seem to quote unquote come naturally. But you know what the big difference is? Practice. They have worked at it. They have worked so hard over and over. The number of reps that get them to the point that you describe is well a lot. Like it's reps. And sure, you might still come out like there might be comedians who you think are funnier than others. but that is more of an external taste thing. But I guarantee you that any that most pe most, most successful comics have gotten there because they put in the reps. And the ones who are able to do the thing you're talking about, have have put in the reps. Like I'm I was never I I did com comedy for a long time. and I was pretty good at it. It was fine. But what I'm really good at is writing. And I mean they're related, obviously. But but because of reps, I can like mm, I can look at something and be like, yeah, it's about five hundred words. I can if someone if someone gives me something that's a thousand words and says it needs to be two fifty, I can do it in ten minutes. If someone's I like I can just do but I can just do things. If someone says, write me five different titles for this, I can do it. Like I just all those things. But do you know why? It's not because I'm some weird genius. I have done it so many times. And it I I so it's not magic. it's really My only issue with the show Glee, which is a delight mostly, is that you never s it never shows them rehearsing. They just like burst into song. I'm like, what how And I'm not like this is a bad lesson for the kids. It's fine. The kids are gonna be fine. But I'm just like that's what it it always sort of annoyed me. And maybe seeing them rehearse would be boring. And I underst I you know, I I'm not saying that it should be another way. It just bothers me somewhere in my somewhere in my heart. That like it's maybe sending the message. It's the same message that someone's like, Hey Bruce, you're funny. You should do stand up. And Bruce like Bruce Yeah, yeah, I'm aren't I? And then Bru Bruce goes to do stand up and immediately finds out it takes a lot of work and either doesn't do or maybe then puts it the work and finds out he can do it. But but it's not like Bruce can automatically do stand-up, much like the you know, the chorus on Glee actually couldn't just burst into a song and dance. Paige Williams: Right. Damn. Lynn Harris: Yeah. So Paige Williams: thinking about the handsome podcast and how funny those guys are but that's different. Lynn Harris: Mm. Paige Williams: That's like extemporaneous improv. You know, when you're like on the fly being funny. Yeah. Lynn Harris: Yeah, that's practice too though. It's practice too. I mean, of course, you know people in your life who are to seem naturally funnier th sure, like there is a baseline where people just have different talents. Like of course, of course, of course. But like being able to do that on a podcast is also practice. Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. They're just so quick. But you're dealing with like three comedic geniuses who have a long history of writing and performing and who do a lot of improv. Lynn Harris: Yeah. They've worked at it. Yeah. And I when I say it's work, I'm not like diminishing it. I'm actually saying like all hail. Like that is like more power to them. That thank I mean it I it's i it's respect. I say that with the utmost respect. Paige Williams: Yeah. No, I'm glad you broke it down because sometimes I feel like it's magic. And so it's good to know that they have to practice too. Like they had to have repetition to get good. Lynn Harris: Do you know how many times the whe the Williams sisters have just gone like this? I I mean they still do. Paige Williams: Yeah. And comedy's the same. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Can humor help a company culture industry recognize an outdated story of itself? Lynn Harris: Yeah. I mean it should, right? I mean it's I Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: I mean I you know, the the the flip side of that is I always think about the companies that just like get it right on their socials, like Stakem. Like Steke had the best Twitter. and it just and people like I've I've never eaten Stegem in my life. I don't really eat meat. There's I'm not going to eat Stegem. But the fact that they're their social was so canny and funny. and not just about stake'em, like they would respond to current events, but like what would Stake'em say. And it was j it was so funny and it was just it made me respect the brand because they made that choice. And it made it made it clear that like there was a human of course it was the voice of Stakeum, but it made it clear that there was a human doing it and that other humans had green lit it. And it just made me like them. just made me think that there were humans at the company, you know? Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Lynn Harris: and a a a company being run by thoughtful humans. And the flip side is that like, you know, especially now when like there's so like there has rightly been such a breakdown of trust. Like we don't believe anything. We're I mean I hope we don't b I hope like certainly we don't believe anything that like the Pentagon says, right? And or I hope teaching kids to be critical about what advertising says, right? And so then when you get a company that says something like, you know, diversity and transparency are our are our are our biggest goals, and you're like, come on, like if you work at that company, you're like, we know that that's not true. I think that humor can actually help even in humor humor even in like internal conversations at companies and from coming from leaders can actually make a difference and and and and break down that kind of like we said this but you know we don't mean it or we said this but you know we meant this and that's probably why there's a lot of science around why CEOs like to hire people with senses of humor and why people like to work with people's with people with senses of humor. It's not because they're fun. though they are, it's because it actually builds trust. Because because when you like they're probably not talking about the peop the people who are just like goofballs at the Christmas party. they mean people who are kind of leading with humor all the time. And again, not jokey jokey, but typically when when you like oversimplify, but when when you make a joke and someone gets it, you have something in common. Because a joke typically involves a twist. You know, the b between the setup and the punch, there's a the the setup is a surprise the punch is a surprise. Like, take my wife, please. Classic sexist, hilarious example. And so if you know, writ large, if you're presenting things with that with kind of simple humor that either acknowledges or cultivates the feeling of having something in common, that builds trust. And it can be self-deprecating. You can be a leader that's like, you know, you're gonna have to explain that to me again, again, you know, if you tend to be slow on the uptake, or whatever it is. You can be self-deprecating, you could be makes you relatable, like all those things can actually there is there's science on this too, actually help build leadership and so are are the same competencies, have a lot have a lot in common with the competencies of good leaders. Paige Williams: What have you learned about the way a joke can expose a contradiction in a story everyone else has agreed to treat as normal? Lynn Harris: Well, I think it goes back to the stuff that we've been talking about, right? That, that and especially when you think about normal as you know, the dominant culture. even comedy itself, I mean, it's so funny to me that comedy is considered like the the scrappy junkyard dog of art, you know, that we're the misfits and outliers and it's like, girl, it's still run by white men. You know, so like even even the I I don't know, that's a bit of a digression, but not really. Because just d it goes back to what I was saying before that even just showing up to do comedy as someone who's not a straight white dude is still a bit of a contradiction if you look at the the kind of gate ke the remaining it's it's changing for sure, but the remaining kind of gatekeeping nature of comedy. even just showing up as me, is still a bit of a contradiction. sadly. But I think that's what it I I just think that's what it does. I mean, I I'm gonna quote okay, two embedded references here. Andy Borowitz, great humorist. once he was he I invited him to speak at a a humor writing class I was teaching in and he one thing he used to talk about was how great comedians then well then he made a reference to the movie A Beautiful Mind where there's that scene where Paul Bettney's like drawing the constell like making lines between the stars among the stars so that he shows you the constellations and Andy was saying that great comedians don't rearrange the stars. They just find you new lines between them. And so that's how people how comedians can expose contradictions because they're like, yeah, that's what we're seeing, but what if it was this? Paige Williams: There's something when you were saying that. If you could wave a magic wand and change the narrative of comedy and the way it is right now in the world in your industry, what would change about it? What what about the story would change? Lynn Harris: We would the magic wand would magically erase and delete all uses of the word comedian, which I hate. because the anytime anyone uses the word comedian, they sometimes they think they're being polite. you're a lady, so we'll call you a comedian. But what they're really doing is re-establishing and reaffirming the norm that comics are men. And other comics are women. That that w we're the we're the color in the room, we're or not. We're the we're the ladies auxiliary. Normal comics are men. That's why you never hear anyone say like men's comedy or he's a male comic. so the long when that word can just lose its use and meaning, we'll know that we've I don't know if we've won, but we've achieved some level of status and power in comedy. Because there'll be no reason to call us anything different. Like I wanna go to a wor I wanna get to a place where it is not at all interesting that women are doing comedy. And they can just call us us, women, people of color. And they can call us or people of color or anyone just comics. And it's not ladies' night. It's not and no shade. Ladies' night's fine. I want to get to a place where and I understand, like, of course, why, you know, there's some of the great shows around here that are like the big brown comedy hour and like of run by brown people. Like, of course. I I that's not a problem. Of course. But I wanna get to a place where every lineup is so diverse that we don't even that it doesn't even occur to us to group ourselves unless we just feel like it because it's fun. And so that's why the if we that will be both, it's both a goal and a indicator that when the word comedian sounds ancient, you know, like soothsayer, I don't know, like I'm thinking just thinking, then we will have achieved some measure of normalcy. if not actual equality. Paige Williams: Yeah. That's great. Cause it it's different if we think about like actor versus actress. It doesn't have the same it it's not the same as comedian and comedian. No, it's not. I was like, what else in the industry is like that? I was trying to think. Lynn Harris: No. Right? I mean it i i Yeah, act I I still try to call I call everyone an actor for the for Paige Williams: Yeah. Lynn Harris: but I don't think it's but it's not as as freighted for me. But like someone Paige Williams: Right. Lynn Harris: I f I wish I remembered who said this, but she was like Do you call your lawyer a lawyerette? Do you call your woman doctor a doctress? Like it doesn't matter. Like why should it matter? Why? Paige Williams: So maybe it's like why Yeah, it why is this in comedy versus some other industry where you would think it would be more innovative and equitable? Lynn Harris: I j I wish I could tell you. I wish I could tell you. But it just makes me feel like I'm the l yeah, I'm the lady, I'm the funny lady. Like I'm just f I'm funny. Like it just it i there is I think it's unintentionally. For some people they just say it 'cause they think it's what we want, but other people like it does carry a little bit of a s I think it carries a little bit of a sneer, a little bit of a disrespect, a little bit of like, you're that's adorable. Paige Williams: smart. Yeah, right. Lynn Harris: Which no. Yeah. No, thank you. Paige Williams: When you hear the phrase narrative intelligence, what does it mean to you and how would you define it if you got to write the the definition of it? Lynn Harris: For what it means to me is having a sense, and I kind of think people all have this sense, and you know, maybe some cultivate it more, but having a sense of what the story is, what the beginning, middle, and an end of anything is, where the who's the main character, when do they change, why, and how that structure is a framework. as we walk through the day, as we as you know, why something makes us laugh, why the way you t the way you share an anecdote, the way the way even you might think about your day at the end of the day. Like, did you triumph in your journey? Who gave you the magic beans? I I think and maybe I'm talking, maybe I'm just echoing what that guy what's his name? The power of myth? What's that the the hero's journey what are those Paige Williams: Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell. Lynn Harris: white w one of those white dudes. Yes, yes, yes. I might just be I might just be like repeating what he said, but I think it's that, having that innate sense that that the stuff humans do can be seen to fit a pattern. that when applied kind of makes sense. Paige Williams: I wanna go back to your origin story, just one more question if I if you have the time. You're a writer, you grew up in the shadow of a person who survived the Holocaust. Not in the shadow, but with, in relation to, near, Lynn Harris: Near. Near, yeah. Paige Williams: and that story. And you ended up in comedy, teaching comedy, promoting comedy, helping comedy become more equitable. How do you connect those two dots between the tragedy of that of the Holocaust? And and and why did you choose comedy? Is there a dot connection? Why comedy? Lynn Harris: Maybe, maybe not. I I just know that in dis let's put it this way, despite this kind of I wouldn't say it was an overshadow, but it was a a small shadow. Despite this, you know, this small shadow. I my family's very funny. You know who's really funny? You know who's really funny? Are my cousin Regina's two daughters. they are hilarious. like hilarious. And So I did I don't know that I can draw a direct line or connect those dots directly, but I know that it was always okay. and normal and like just regular daggular to just have comedy in the house. No matter whether someone was just being a wise ass or whether Carol Burnett was on, it was just normal. Paige Williams: it makes me think about what you said about trust. Like if you can be funny Lynn Harris: Yeah. Paige Williams: in your family, you're really calling out the the the s the things that are real. Lynn Harris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Paige Williams: Yeah. Well tell me about Gold Comedy. What would you want to plug? Lynn Harris: Actually two things. just that we are if you are someone who wants support in a comedy career or a c passion project or a creative side hustle, we can help you with no bro vibe. and we're all on we're online, so wherever you are we can we have all sorts of resources that can support you in your journey. and I also have a substack. It's called Interrupting Cow. Paige Williams: Great. What is it? Fun. Thank you, Lynn. This has been an awesome conversation about narrative intelligence and comedy. Appreciate your time. Yeah. Lynn Harris: Sure. My pleasure. My pleasure. I'm glad we finally got to schedule it. I'm happy to do it. Paige Williams: Before we close, here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Lynn said something I loved because it pushes against one of our most persistent cultural stories. Not every painful experience has to become a lesson. Sometimes something terrible happens and it is simply just terrible. You don't have to force a silver lining onto it. You don't have to make it mean something before you're ready. And yet, sometimes humor gives us another way to relate to what happened. Not by minimizing it, not by pretending it was okay. But by creating enough distance to see it differently, to notice the absurdity, the contradiction, the thing everyone else has agreed to treat as normal. Lynn also gave me one of my favorite descriptions of what great comedians do. They do not rearrange the stars, they find new lines between them. And that feels deeply connected to narrative intelligence. The facts may not change, but the relationship between them can. And suddenly we see a pattern as An assumption or a dominant story that was hiding in plain sight. Comedy can do that because it disarms us, it creates recognition before argument, it lets us laugh, and in that moment sometimes we become willing to see something we were defending against a minute earlier. Lynn also reminded me that this is not magic. It is practice, observation, repetition, craft, the ability to notice what others miss and then find the one turn of phrase that makes the contradiction visible. So the question I'm leaving this conversation with is what story might become visible if we stop taking it so serious for just long enough to laugh at it? Take the narrative quotient assessment at storykeys.co and subscribe to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project, wherever you listen or watch. And one more thing. The person who owns the story, who gets to tell the story, shapes the narrative and our experience with it. Thank you, Lynn.