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What I've Learnt - Deborra- Lee Furness (REPLAY) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm throwing to welcome my first guest, the wonderful Deboly finesse.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: An actor, producer, and a philanthropist.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: She does it all.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: And she's here with me to discuss all things Mother Hood living in New York and the loves of her life, her husband Hugh Jackman, and her gorgeous two kids.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us today.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure, Deb.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Deb Square here.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to discuss with you the notion that mental health and anxiety and depression seems to be prevalent, almost endemic, in our community, especially the arts industry.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Have you yourself experienced any of these?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, we're diving right in here.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a human, it's part of the human condition.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was just about to say it's the human experience.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people, I think there is shame associated with this, with around anxiety that we're not coping.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there is such expectation on us to hit the mark.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And especially now in this time, which is why I think there's an increase of anxiety, is because of social media.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, here we are, we're on Instagram and we're looking at all our friends, and they're like, hi, I'm in Greece, and I'm having a fabulous time and I'm doing this.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're not sitting there putting like the Instagram shot of like when I'm in the kitchen with snot coming out my nose and I'm weeping because I'm suffering.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't show that.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone feels like a girlfriend of mine literally said, she goes, for my mental health, I had to come off Instagram.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was destroying my life because she felt so inadequate.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a filter that is being put on everybody's lives.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like literally blood.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, literally filters, like all the lines are gone.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're living this perfect life.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: The expectations are, and for kids, I mean, us older folk, you know, but we're still battling with our uh our challenges as well.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But kids who haven't developed the the hide to have the strength, you know, they're battling with it.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what is great is, and I again, I just saw on Instagram the other day, my girlfriend did a uh a blog.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't know if you know Alison Bray, who's a supermodel, gorgeous.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: She put a thing on her Instagram saying that she, yeah, she'd written a piece about how she deals with her daughter's anxiety.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that she shared that, that her daughter was brave enough to say, yeah, mum, let's put it out there.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they talked about it.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: So another kid is going to see that and think, oh my God, you know, this kid's got it too.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: When these kids see themselves represented, they they're not alone.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, do you think talking about it as we're doing today is a way to help our kids navigate and not just our kids, but us navigate this surreal environment that we're all in?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because you can't really avoid it, it's everywhere.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: What do you advise your children?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do you do you discuss it with them?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have some sense of how do you protect your family and your kids from this overwhelming social media?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Very easy.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Take away their phone.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Does it work?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it does.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: They have limited access to their phone.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um my daughter has been involved.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: There were some online chats that were completely inappropriate.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was really proud of her because she shut it all down for her friends.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think you just have to teach them that they have to advocate for themselves and they know what's right or wrong.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you just have to support them.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the key is, as you said, we've got to keep talking about it.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to stop pretending, hey, I got this, I'm okay.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And especially like in the industry I work in, we're all out there going, oh, we're fabulous.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And all the press is saying we're fabulous, or they're not saying that, or they're the press is bullying, which they're a beast unto themselves.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very pleased to hear recently a young rebel Wilson run a case against uh a magazine.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I kept saying you might as well just go to the school bullying in the schoolyard, give him five bucks because that's what you're doing, you know, supporting these magazines.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: She was very brave.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: She was, because you've got to stand up to the biggest bully, and they have the power.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it is all about bullying.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're putting that out there.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Stop the bullying.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And my favorite thing is, as I said before, be very kind to the person standing in front of you.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: You have no idea of the challenges they face or what they have to climb every day.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the irony is, which I've seen over and over, the people that look like they've really got it all together are the ones suffering.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're pushing themselves.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're just to hit the mark for themselves and for the appearance out there.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in fact, it's like a classic bully, isn't it?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Often the bully is the person suffering the most.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so they project onto somebody else.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's a lot of self-bullying.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the anxiety comes from.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's the self-bully.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Forget doing it to someone else.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're bullying ourselves, you know, bullying ourselves for not hitting the mark or or reaching our limits.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just got to be the biggest thing to me is authentic.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was about to say the exact same authenticity.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting crushed by this wave of expectation.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's killing our creativity in that environment.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: How can you be creative?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've done it to myself.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Believe me, I have performance anxiety.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I and that, you know, like people.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Someone like you.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, see, and people wouldn't pick it with me.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the secret's out.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that pre- I have that perfectionism.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like if it's baking a cake or my husband gets crazy at me, we'll walk for miles because we're going to find the perfect restaurant to have the perfect experience.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's exhausting.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to really just uh be within myself.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Meditation has really helped for me and trying to take that um expectation off it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: But when I say authentic, like you know, just showing up, coming here for an interview or doing a show, you don't know what's gonna happen.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Perfectionists like to control and and manipulate.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like as a director, I I love to direct and you think that you are controlling the what you're saying.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're gonna be a great director, there's that that is a beast unto itself, whatever you're creating, and you have to be calm enough and not want to be the dictator to see what it feeds you.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: You will get more magic out of allowing to happen whatever it is and stop the controlling.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're wanting to control more and more, and it's killing us, it's taking away our creative creativity and our ability to be present and listen.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And also it affects our intuition because if you're constantly self-monitoring, managing, do you find that's something that you have to you have to uh deal with is the inner dialogue, the constant, the constant negative feedback within.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to keep hold of your true self and not is that is that something you experience?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I gather that's meditation that helps you.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: You have to stop the voice.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: This it's so interesting.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're all about the physical, and you know, this are like get the trainer in for the body, so we've got the bay body.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Really, the person running the show is this little uh general up here in the head, and that's what we need is that's what we need to coach is calming the mind down.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the fear uh F-E-A-R, false evidence appearing real.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this is all this is it's baloney, it's a lot all this stuff is I'm not good enough for that, I can't do that, I'm scared, I'm this, I'm that.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: By all this dialogue going on, you're not present.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and to me, happiness is being truly in the moment.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not thinking about what has been, it's not thinking about what's coming, it is being in this moment.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I do this, I love to do this.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm washing the dishes, I'm present with that plate, with the cloth on the plate in that moment.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the first time I did that, I was like, it was joyous, and I really got a kick out of doing the dishes.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that, and they often say, don't they, that the way to treat mental health or anxiety is to focus on the simple tasks.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: They often like doing the dishes, exactly what you've outlined.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you clearly work hard to make sure with all the extraordinary things that you experience in your life, you've learned to focus on the simple and to listen to your inner voice.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure I'm sure is that something that you're cons you're constantly challenging yourself to do?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Daily.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get up some days and I'll do well.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Most days I try to write out a daily design.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, a little trick.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I write out a daily design and I only keep it in the positive.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I will see the smiles on my children's faces.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I will live in the moment.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I am gonna feel great about myself.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I am only gonna put good nourishing food in my body so that I feel strong and healthy.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just that that's mind coaching.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's like going to the gym.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You you set yourself up that way by positivity, your day will play out like that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I think it's a constant.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: We as humans, this is it can be a war.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is why all the mental health, because this is a war going on up here.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Be kind.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: You be we're saying be kind to others, be kind to yourself.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, because then you have that, then you come from that place of of of power.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you're when you're totally in Sanskrit, they call it satva, that sattva state of being, when you're just completely blissed out with the world, like you can see the flower.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know when I'm having a miserable day, I can't see the beauty in the garden, I can't see the beauty in a meal, I can't see anything because you're so involved in this war that's going on in here.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And are there people that have have mentored you or inspired you and allowed you to find this or to to tackle this?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that's really interesting.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: That inner war, which I think many of us have, are there people that have actually helped you on this journey or this pathway?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Many.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Any that's a good idea.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: This could be the guy at the at the um, when I'm buying a ticket at the at the railway station.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying you can see it in other people.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I remember once I went to a deli and this guy's like, yeah, Max, yeah.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, telling me he so wasn't present, he was just really aggressive.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he got to me and I said, Hi, how are you?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just sort of really came in and said, Hi, how are you?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I he was like shocked out of his numbness, and be and I saw him just turn around and come become completely calm.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just a lesson to me.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like look into people's eyes.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So many times you're at restaurants, you don't see the waiter.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you say, I always make an effort to go, hello.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: They feel invisible, and then all of a sudden that alchemy changes for that experience that you have at the table in this restaurant with the meal, with whoever you're with.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: The present.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't just it's not just about your family or your friends.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the more extensive you are with your your generosity of spirit, it comes back to you.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so for you sorry, I didn't finish your question.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: The mentorship, yes.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll talk about in relation to my work.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: My one of my very first acting teachers said to me, Deborah, you're a really good actress.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: She goes, I wish you weren't.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that's really interesting.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: She said, if you would let go of the what I talked about before, that controlling, like I had an idea, this character's like this, and I was I could mimic and I could play it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And she wanted me to let go, to be present, to look into the other actor and be fed from that other actor to see what happens.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: That is scary.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like jumping in without a life raft on because you don't know what's going to happen.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: But my God, it's so exciting.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the result of that is magic.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you see great performances, it's because they're brave enough to let go of that and just dive in not knowing what's going to happen.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been in the scenes doing high drama, and then I'll just be shrieking with laughter.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden, something's made me laugh.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you look back at it, and it's magic because that's what happens to us in life.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: We get triggered in different things.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always what we think it's supposed to be.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just so as an actress, that teacher saying that to me, and I never forgot it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I sometimes, when I get scared, I'll still go in and you know, do it, place it on it.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But when I really can trust myself, it's thrilling.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like going on a roller coaster, right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's amazing how you still resonate that that story that she made that impact on you.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: She, I'm assuming.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what about your in terms of other inspirations?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who else now do you draw on for that sort of inspiration and comfort and to keep you on track?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Other than yourself, which I gather.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are there people that you surround you?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I gather you have some very good friends.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Girlfriends.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, of course, with my friends, I'm blessed with a wonderful relationship I have with my husband who teaches me daily.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: My children teach me daily.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't our kids teach us a lot.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like a moron before they came along.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, they made me smart.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have to, you have to listen.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And exactly what I'm talking about, you have to be able to serve.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just the Brady Bunch or what we see, what as everyone who's got kids knows, it's like, oh my God, and you know, your kid, you gotta show up, and they know when you're not showing up.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're the barometer.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember once I was on a, I think it was this is your life, and I was on stage, it was awesome happening.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sitting there talking to the interviewer, and I looked, I just glanced out to the audience, and my son was in.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was sort of, you know, I was sort of a bit nervous, and I'm talking to the guy, and my son looked at me like, you're full of it, mom.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just come back.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just, he just totally, just by a glance in his eye, he just grounded me and I just went straight back into the interview and could just be relaxed and calm again and present.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I they teach me daily.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I surround, obviously, we surround ourselves with people that reflect us in a good way.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think we choose people that we we resonate with that are having a similar life journey so that we can share it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, your your children, I love that reference because you know, we talk about how we mentor and take care of our kids, but actually they reflect back beautifully, and I love that that you and also you you listen to them.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you clearly are very, very connected to your kids.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a bit about how how family is so important to you and how that's something that can help take us on this journey.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's everything, isn't it?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that inner circle.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you go out, we go out into the world with all the hills and valleys and bumps and challenges, and we get to come home.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sanctuary?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's sanctuary.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I love that I share everything with my husband.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Both of us share all those little nuances that you know, and that's why I think that's what a relationship is, you know, and when you're in a relationship, you gotta stand there stark naked with all your vulnerabilities and all your stuff.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't share those, it it'll create distance.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that I feel safe enough that I can share that, and um you have that support so that it gives you the strength to go, you know what?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: You put it out there like we talked about before.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you say it, it sort of diffuses that or the shame, you know, shame involved with feeling a certain way.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you're angry, if you're jealous, we all those emotions, we all have the same emotions.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: What makes us characters is the you know what triggers us.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like what triggers me to be angry is going to be something different to you.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So why do we put shame around the negative emotions?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're human and it's it's universal.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just own them.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just say, I'm angry.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And just by saying and putting out there, okay, I'm angry, and work your way through it.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting too what you're saying about the notion of your relationship, because in a sense, that involves intrinsic bravery and trust.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's the most courageous everything I ever did.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: We'll say I do.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's very true.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, look at it, oh my god, we've got to show all that stuff.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, get so so really, I mean, you clearly have um a beautiful long history with Hugh, but you're you you've got a beautiful resilience yourself.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where's that come from?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: You I mean, you had an interesting childhood.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you're a very my my observation is you have a lot of resilience.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You you don't get too rattled.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean all then as you say illusion a wonderful thing.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well well crafted, but yeah, but you No, you're right.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've always said if people say what is I would say is my most positive asset, I would say courage.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And where's that?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: How is that applied in your life and where's that come from?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think it comes, we develop all these tools as children.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're all set by the time we're five, we've sort of navigated our way and we've learned on whatever left level what we need to survive.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't, you know, we talked recently with a friend and people who are very, very successful.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um a friend of mine just said he said, Yeah, I'm just filling the hole, fill in the hole.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like sometimes you can say they just need so much more to fill whatever it is in them to make them feel good.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can have hugely successful people who there's never enough to fill that hole.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I used to, I can just share something that amused me.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I used to go when I go shopping, and I remember looking at the butcher.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to the butcher one day and I looked at him.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: He was this jolly guy behind the counter, and I was I was envious.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, you show up here every day and you talk to people, and that that's and you're perfectly happy.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, oh my god, I've got to go out there and I gotta sing and dance and I gotta do all that, and and I have to push myself to achieve, and I'm constantly putting things in front of myself to to conquer.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I was that that girl that was like standing up and performing was really scary to me, which is why I think I did it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I took myself up to drama school because it scared the crap out of me.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and I hated that I was scared.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my thing is when I'm scared of something, I go straight into it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: That is, but that's your courage.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So does that come from when because you were young when you first went off to boarding school?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was very young.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, extraordinarily young.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was sort of on my own at as a five-year-old because I was boarding school, because in those days, you know, my mother didn't want me to be a latchkey kid, and so she had the nuns look after me.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a whole other miniseries in there.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um you develop tools for survival, you develop uh uh what it is that you need to feel fulfilled and significant.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: All of us, every single human being wants to be significant, and it's how we pursue that significance that are our challenges.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: For someone else, it's simply just being a mother, give them significance.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: For someone else, it's you know, having to be the best ice skater in the world or I, you know, Olympians.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're all we're all pushing ourselves to be the best we can be and deal with our individual life experiences, how we feel in the world and how we feel significant.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when the fact that you were so young, do you think had you had a different start that that strength may have still been there?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, how much do you think is biological?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: How much do you think is enculturation that you know that courage?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the fact that it's terrifying for you to go on stage and yet you pushed yourself and you you made yourself face that challenge and you seem to live your life with great courage as you've advanced, as you've said.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it was the fact that you had to deal with some something quite young?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our our life experiences and I think genetics, I think our forebearings, I think a lot of uh the generations that go before us has a huge impact on us.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we come into this world um with a history.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just what's happened since we've been here.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that you know there's intergenerational, you know, uh Magda Zabansky talks about that in her book, her intergenerational trauma.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the positives and the negatives, yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, and I have two adopted children, so it's very interesting the nature nurture.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Very yeah, yeah, and and there's yeah, and there's such interesting subtleties in there.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my son has come in, he's this extraordinary being that you know, from a young age, he was extremely spiritual.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's some So that's enculturation being around you?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's lineage and his his quest for knowledge, or he he was like a wise little Buddha.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: He knew stuff that I hadn't even taught him, but he had a a thirst for this knowledge, for spirituality, and um he had knowingness about him.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so I do believe that there's um a genetic component.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, for you, what did you learn from a parent, your parent who I know you've lost recently?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: What did what did everything?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: She ugh, I haven't talked about this, but it's a hard one.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I understand.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I understand.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Everything everything.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Our mothers are very strong.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: That that relationship with your mother, that's why it's a huge loss.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I'm crying now, I'm trying to hide that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm sorry, it makes me sad.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I I'm still, you know, it's it's still fresh.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking about enormous loss is um it's hard, but yeah, she, you know, I had all her stuff too.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she was, I'm so proud of that.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: She was this extraordinary, wise, she was a lot more patient than me and a lot nicer.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's really she's really calm.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whenever I get impatient with my kids, she's like, Deborah, speak quietly.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And my son says, Yeah, listen to Nan.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she was just everyone that talked about mum always said she was so wise, she had a knowingness about her, and she was my anchor.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: So wherever I was in the world, I could be who I went to be.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's what gave me the courage to go out there was knowing she was there.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I lost her, I had my own little bout of anxiety there because it was like my my anchor.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Had gone.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, why?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was like a shot dissipated, yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Completely.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so many people go through this.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really common expression, that feeling of, and we're at this age.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Where you feel extreme.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't feel to you don't expect to feel like that at this age.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I thought by now, like, ah, you know, care so much about no, I got different challenges now.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: When there were I look at retired people, can you relax?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do we forget to relax?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I will always have things to conquer and I'll always have dreams to fulfill till the end.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I do.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel that that she you carry a part of her inside you?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that's what most people experience.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: She's imbued.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: She's imbued within.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: She's totally present with me.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think through, and I feel guided by her, and I still ask her for guidance.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, she's I don't, I do believe, and I have to believe we're all gonna end up at a great party somewhere.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get there one day and be together.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I do feel connected, completely connected to her.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But she did, she taught me so much, not by verbally, but by her action, by who she was as a woman, the integrity of the woman.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Integrity.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So what's what are some of the specifics you learnt from her?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she was incredibly empathetic.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And from a young age, she always taught me to be empathetic to others, to exactly that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Understand everyone, don't jump to being angry at people, understand.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: She was the most understanding woman I ever knew, most empathetic woman.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: She would listen to everyone, she would make everyone feel that they were the most important room person in the room.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: She had that gift, and since her passing, everyone has just, you know, like old friends of mine that might say, Oh, I loved your mum.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone called her mama.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: She she was all-encompassing.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, everyone just called them mama because she was like everyone's mum.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I thought all mums were like her.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: She was just that woman, and she was my strength.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So when she passed, I did a little piece of me.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was that little kitty, I was completely lost.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think, are you starting?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that the grief has started to lift and you're starting to, or do you think we always carry a little piece with us?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's always there.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: But no, the gr you learn to deal with the grief in a different way and embrace it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I read something which was really helpful.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, when a child is born, we were all there and we're joyous, and it's like, wow, isn't this great?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And someone said, Why can't we shift that paradigm, shift that perspective?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when someone's passing, we be there with them, and like you're going to the next place, you're this is the next stage, and be joyous in their passing over.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it just helped me shift that paradigm to not see it as this terrible happening and loss.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're still there, it's just in a different context or a different form.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so, does that bring you to some sense of faith?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have faith?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have faith.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have faith.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't need to belong to an organized religion to have faith.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have spirituality and I I study philosophy.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would say it's like a buffet, like, you know, it's good company.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's Shakespeare, there's Plato, there's Jesus, there's Muhammad, there's Buddha.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Kaleidoscope.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I'm taking all the good stuff.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're all saying the same thing, really, if you break it down.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it gets a little polluted along the way and uh disruptive, but they're all saying the same thing.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's good company.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: We know intrinsically, you talked before about gut.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: We know when we hear, when we're talking to some, we know if it's truth.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know if it's truth, it resonates.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: We know it.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: If we're if we're really not clogged up with all that stuff and we're just present, we know what truth is.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me, if you did have a magic wand, I do.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Show it to me sometime.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's Prada.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you did, and then you could go back in time, what would you say to your 10-year-old self in a nutshell?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: 10-year-old self first, then we'll go down the journey.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say to your 10 to your 10-year-old self, Deb?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Your 10 trust yourself, back yourself, be here.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: 20-year-old self?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: It would always be the same.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um have the donut.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, it it I would continue to say that to myself to be um because again, I say that we're the hardest on ourselves.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Just trust yourself and whoever you are.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's who you are.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's where you're gonna get all your kudos from.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I don't know how to be anyone else.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I can only be me.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's you know 20 is uh is an interesting time.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: 20 is when we're really shaping the adult.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: 30?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: 30?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: 30 year old Deb.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Go back in time.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: 30-year-old Deb.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um probably I think that was where I was probably really pushing myself career-wise.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think uh we can get lost in that pursuit of career.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I probably would have said, you know, play a little, play a little more too.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: That we have to enjoy the ride.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's the point otherwise?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like if we're pursuing something and it's great to pursue goals, but you've got to enjoy that journey.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the journey.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: 40-year-old self?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to it.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's all the same.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can go down and let's hope we're not going past 40.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're we'll just get you to 50.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you worry, don't panic.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not um because 50 is midlife, so 50 is an interesting one.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's true.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's when those thoughts do come in.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, there's a capra to this.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and when you see that, so the 50, again, we only get into trouble if we start seeing that capra.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: If we see that there's uh an infinite amount of time, uh, it's gonna rush us to do something that is not authentic.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So again, the true happiness is just being in this moment, right here, right now.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, live in the moment.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is such a great uh statement to end on because really um that's at the end of the day, that's the main thrust of the journey, as you say.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's all we've got to really trust is this moment.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what the next moment is.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Deb, thank you so much for your time.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed interviewing you, and I look forward to seeing you soon.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Darren.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy doing those dishes.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've learned as much as I have.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: The show will be coming to you free every month, and a subscription is the best way to ensure you get each episode done loaded straight into your pocket.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: For more stories or for an opportunity to tell your own, head to my website, mindfulonepublishing.com.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, stay curious, kind, and connected with Love Debbie.