Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BOMBSHELL: BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED "SUICIDE" FAMILY BREAKS SILENCE

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BOMBSHELL: BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED "SUICIDE" FAMILY BREAKS SILENCE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Bombshell, a beautiful young bride to be stabbed twenty times,
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: including her back, the back of her neck, actually nicking
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: the dura of her spinal cord, the back of her head,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: the top of her head, all over her body. It
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: was ruled a suicide. A bombshell in that case, and
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: tonight her family breaking their silence. Imancy Grace, this is
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  Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Us, she answered, on the floor with flood everywhere.
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  Speaker 3: She stabbed herself.
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  Speaker 4: Isn't I kicking out of her heart?
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  Speaker 2: How did he know immediately that Ellen stabbed herself? Because
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I would never think that my husband stabbed himself. I
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  Speaker 2: just wouldn't believe that. So what was on the crime
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  Speaker 2: scene that suggested a suicide?
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  Speaker 1: Now, hold on, hold on, I don't want.
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  Speaker 2: To put the cart before the horse. I want to
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  Speaker 2: listen to that nine to one one call, because, as
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  Speaker 2: many of you know, there's nothing like a nine to
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  Speaker 2: one one call.
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  Speaker 1: Why is it significant? Why is it critical?
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  Speaker 2: Because that is the most probative, in other words, proved
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  Speaker 2: something evidence that I know of, because it takes a
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  Speaker 2: jury or a listener such as ourselves. Back to the moment,
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  Speaker 2: the crime is discovered. In this case, it was ruled
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: there was no crime, that it was a suicide.
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  Speaker 1: I find it very.
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  Speaker 2: Difficult to believe, and I'll tell you why. But first
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  Speaker 2: listen to more of the nine one one call.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, I went downstairs go work out.
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  Speaker 4: I came back up the door and the lash.
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  Speaker 6: My fiance is inside.
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  Speaker 7: She wasn't.
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  Speaker 8: She wasn't answering. So after about a half hour, I decided.
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  Speaker 4: To break it down.
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  Speaker 1: I see her now, it's on the floor before she's
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  Speaker 1: not She's.
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  Speaker 4: Not responding, okay, breathing, Okay, I can.
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  Speaker 2: Look at her.
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  Speaker 1: Test I need to calm down.
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  Speaker 2: I need to.
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  Speaker 3: I really don't see you.
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  Speaker 7: I'm going away her, get her and up and out up,
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  Speaker 7: and I don't see her moving.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: You were hearing the voice of Ellen Greenberg's fiance, who says,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and let me understand that I've got these facts correct.
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  Speaker 2: But joining me an all star panel including Ellen's parents,
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  Speaker 2: Sandy and Josh. But to John Lucy joining us, a
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  Speaker 2: journalist for a Kenlive dot com, and the Patriot niece
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: of Harrisburg, also the author of Kill the Story.
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  Speaker 1: John, thank you for being with us. The workout room
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  Speaker 1: was in the building.
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  Speaker 9: Correct, Yes, there was a workout room in the building.
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  Speaker 9: And just to get the semantics right, when he comes
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  Speaker 9: back up, it wasn't bolted. It was a latch similar
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  Speaker 9: to those you find in a hotel room that swings
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  Speaker 9: over and class, but you can open the door a
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  Speaker 9: couple of inches.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 9: It wasn't a dead boat, it was, Yeah, it was.
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  Speaker 9: It was a latch like that you're finding a hotel room.
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  Speaker 9: So even if he would have the key, he'd be
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  Speaker 9: able to get open the door a few inches. And
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  Speaker 9: those locks, those latches are easily defeated. In other words,
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  Speaker 9: there was some debate in the physical evidence whether the
• 3:57
  Speaker 9: door was actually kicked in. Did the slot that latch
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  Speaker 9: as he described on the nine to one one tape.
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  Speaker 9: That's one of the many anomalies among the evidence, and
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  Speaker 9: I would be very clear.
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  Speaker 2: We are discussing why this case was not fully investigated,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: why there are so many gaping, glaring holes in the investigation.
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  Speaker 2: Just for instance, the knife found plunged into Ellen's chest
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: was never fingerprinted, The crime scene was not kept pristine.
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  Speaker 2: The apartment manager was allowed to bring in a cleaning
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  Speaker 2: crew before the scene was ever processed. Items such as
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  Speaker 2: Ellen's laptop. Wait, where's all the blood? There should have
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: been blood everywhere, but there's not.
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  Speaker 1: Was there some sort of a cleanup?
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  Speaker 2: We believe the body was moved before police arrived. That's
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  Speaker 2: what I'm going to bring in Joe Scott Morgan, Professor forensics.
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  Speaker 1: But the question is why has this case been stymied?
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  Speaker 2: Why is it that the then district Attorney's office, the
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  Speaker 2: then Attorney General's office, the then police didn't want this
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  Speaker 2: investigation to go forward. Why did the emmy then change
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  Speaker 2: the motive death from homicide to suicide?
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  Speaker 1: Why did that happen? What happened in the interim.
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  Speaker 2: There's just so much, But in the last days there
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  Speaker 2: has been a bombshell. I want to go to Sandy
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  Speaker 2: and Josh Greenberg, Ellen's parents, who I now consider to
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  Speaker 2: be my friends. They are broken, They are practically broke
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  Speaker 2: because they have spent their life savings fighting this suicide ruling.
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  Speaker 2: And you can find them at go fund me Justice
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  Speaker 2: for Ellen. Sandy and Josh, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: And I want to apologize right up front for replaying
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  Speaker 2: the nine to one one call. I don't know if
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  Speaker 2: you are desensitized to it yet, if You've listened to
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  Speaker 2: it so many times, but I want to apologize. I
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  Speaker 2: hate dragging you through that, but it's evidence we cannot ignore.
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  Speaker 5: Thank you, Nancy. My perspective on this whole thing is
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  Speaker 5: the fact that we have worked so hard and done
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  Speaker 5: so much and now reached a really crescendo or epitome
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  Speaker 5: of success. In some fashion, that this is made up
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  Speaker 5: or has softened the blow of losing our daughter. We
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: still have that there, but instead of being in the
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  Speaker 5: corner and crying or howling like I do when I
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  Speaker 5: go to the cemetery, we have done something, and we
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  Speaker 5: have done something that no one else has ever done
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  Speaker 5: in a case like this, and we've gotten farther than
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  Speaker 5: somebody in anybody in a case like this. So, with
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  Speaker 5: the help of our attorneys, mister Pedroza and mister Tras,
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  Speaker 5: we are very happy today. In some fashion. I know
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  Speaker 5: that may not make sense to some people that we
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  Speaker 5: should be grieving. We grieve, but we also have a mission.
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  Speaker 5: We have a purpose, and you can see in those
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  Speaker 5: pictures who she is. Recently, I've had two lawyers, one
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  Speaker 5: working for the State of New York and one working
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  Speaker 5: for the state, not for the state. One is a
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  Speaker 5: criminal defensive lawyer. Tell me I should fire my lawyers.
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  Speaker 5: I should stop spending money. I'm not going to get anywhere.
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  Speaker 5: And as we're going to discuss today, we have really
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  Speaker 5: got this case as far as we can go in
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  Speaker 5: the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I believe I'm not a attorney either.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I have to say you do have a success today.
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  Speaker 2: For over thirteen years, you and Sandy have been fighting
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  Speaker 2: this suicide ruling, and in the last days a momentous
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  Speaker 2: turn of events, You've been turned down by every court,
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  Speaker 2: by every prosecutor, you name it, Sandy. In the last hours,
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  Speaker 2: you and josh Ellen's parents have achieved something that has
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  Speaker 2: never been done before in that jurisdiction, and that is
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  Speaker 2: you are going to be allowed, finally after thirteen years,
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  Speaker 2: to challenge the suicide ruling.
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  Speaker 1: Does that mean it's going to be ruled a homicide?
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  Speaker 7: No?
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  Speaker 1: Does that mean that there is a person of interest
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  Speaker 1: our suspect.
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  Speaker 2: No, means that there may may be an investigation of
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  Speaker 2: your daughter's murder.
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  Speaker 7: I never expected to get such great news and to
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  Speaker 7: advance this far, but.
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  Speaker 6: I'm not giving up.
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  Speaker 7: She was someone that we were raising to be the
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  Speaker 7: best possible version of herself, and puff she's gone, will
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  Speaker 7: never be grandparents, We will never have grandchildren. But I
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  Speaker 7: want to make her proud of us.
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  Speaker 1: I hope we are. I want to ask you something, Sandy.
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  Speaker 10: I remember the day that you and Josh and I
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  Speaker 10: went to the cemetery and I walked up to where
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  Speaker 10: Ellen is buried, and you, but.
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  Speaker 1: Especially Josh, hung back.
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  Speaker 2: You could hardly even bring yourself to walk up to
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  Speaker 2: her plot in that cemetery.
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  Speaker 1: Then you couldn't speak.
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  Speaker 2: Why is it you couldn't bring yourself to walk up
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  Speaker 2: to that headstone.
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  Speaker 7: It's hard to believe that that's where her body was
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  Speaker 7: laid to rest. And weeks after she had died in
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  Speaker 7: the wintertime, and weeks after, I'd be driving at night
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  Speaker 7: and it's rainy and cold and nasty, and I think
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  Speaker 7: of my child body lying in the box in the
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  Speaker 7: cemetery with all this nastiness all around her, and I
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  Speaker 7: just can't believe. You know, she's just been completely eliminated.
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  Speaker 5: This is not we expected to be at this time,
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  Speaker 5: or through it to get to this time. We wanted
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  Speaker 5: a quote unquote normal family. We wanted Ellen to be happy.
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  Speaker 5: We wanted her to have a relationship like we did
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  Speaker 5: do I mean, I don't know. We don't really just
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  Speaker 5: discuss this very often, but most marriages don't last after
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  Speaker 5: an incident like this, and we're now going on our
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  Speaker 5: forty to fifty year of marriage of marriage, so there's
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  Speaker 5: a lot here that doesn't speak that we don't speak about.
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  Speaker 5: But we have fought for Ellen. Justice for Ellen is
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  Speaker 5: the term we use.
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  Speaker 1: It's a term.
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  Speaker 5: Maybe it sounds like a cliche term. I don't know
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  Speaker 5: how it sounds to other people, but that's what we
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  Speaker 5: are doing, and that is something that we have that
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  Speaker 5: keeps us, helps keeps us solid, real people together, and
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  Speaker 5: even as a team, it helps us as a team.
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  Speaker 5: I'm talking about with the attorneys we work with, with
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  Speaker 5: mister Brennan, who work with everybody. It keeps us going
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  Speaker 5: as a team.
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  Speaker 4: Twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg found dead inside her
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  Speaker 4: home multiple stab wounds to the back of her neck,
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  Speaker 4: but investigators insist she took her own life.
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  Speaker 1: I've learned so much about Ellen.
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  Speaker 2: I only wish I knew her in life, instead of
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  Speaker 2: getting to know her through autopsy reports and police reports
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  Speaker 2: and what friends say and what her parents have told me.
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  Speaker 1: This is a little bit of what I know.
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  Speaker 11: Listen Ellen Greenberg is the first grade teacher in Philadelphia.
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  Speaker 11: At twenty seven years old. She and longtime boyfriend Sam
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  Speaker 11: Goldberg have just sent out Saved the day cards for
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  Speaker 11: their upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia
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  Speaker 11: and school has dismissed everyone early, and on her way home,
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  Speaker 11: Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's
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  Speaker 11: home with her fiance, Sam Goldberg, leaves around four forty
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  Speaker 11: five pm to work out in the apartment complex Jim.
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  Speaker 11: When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the
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  Speaker 11: door is locked from the inside.
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  Speaker 2: Joining me as renowned forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor
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  Speaker 2: of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
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  Speaker 2: Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series now Body
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  Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is going
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  Speaker 2: to be very difficult for you, But in a one
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  Speaker 2: word answer, did Ellen Greenberg commit suicide?
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  Speaker 1: N Oh, No, impossible, impossible.
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  Speaker 2: The first time I read this file, the first time
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  Speaker 2: I read an article long ago about the ruling of
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  Speaker 2: suicide ruling, I believe I immediately called you because how
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  Speaker 2: can someone anyone stab themselves twenty times that we know of,
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  Speaker 2: And we also know about the phenomena of overlapping stab wounds,
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  Speaker 2: where where someone is stabed in the same spot. We're
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  Speaker 2: dealing with that with Brian Coberger's case right now. So
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  Speaker 2: there may be more stab wounds, but I'm gonna go
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  Speaker 2: with twenty.
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with twenty.
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  Speaker 2: How can you stab yourself twenty times? And I had
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  Speaker 2: to write these down in preparation for talking with you
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: this morning, Joe Scott Morgan.
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  Speaker 1: When at least three, at least three of.
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  Speaker 2: The stab wounds could be deadly. For instance, stab woon
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  Speaker 2: E as an elephant certainly fatal stab woon H happy,
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  Speaker 2: fatal stab woon number two very likely fatal stab woon
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  Speaker 2: K had to be inflicted with.
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  Speaker 1: A serrated abrasion.
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  Speaker 2: But I find that the wound are diametrically opposed to
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  Speaker 2: each other regarding trajectory path. In other words, there are
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  Speaker 2: vertical stab wounds, there are horizontal stab wounds, there are
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  Speaker 2: oblique stab wounds. One that bothers me the most, actually too,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: is the one basically on top of the head.
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  Speaker 1: How do you attack yourself on top of your head?
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  Speaker 2: And the wound where her dura of her spine is cut.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: How do you do that to the back of your neck?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And then last, and most importantly, some of the wounds
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  Speaker 2: were inflicted post mortem after death. Her heart was not beating.
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  Speaker 2: How can she keep stabbing herself?
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  Speaker 3: I mean how The thing about stab wounds, Nancy, is
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: that every time time an edged weapon is introduced into
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: somebody's body of pain center fires so over and over again.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: You mentioned the number twenty so and even for our
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: listeners that are following this case, and many have for
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: now loath these many years, you can identify with just
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: a paper cut, perhaps at home, and how painful that is.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: If you can imagine a serrated edge, and that's what
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: we're talking about, just like a steak knife, okay, And
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  Speaker 3: it's roughly a five inch blade to the conversion from metric,
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: roughly a five inch blade. You've got this running running
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: along the surface. One of the very curious things, Nancy,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: is the fact that you have a blade that is
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: entering the chest. And there's a couple of these along
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: the way where you're talking about. The blade is going
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: from right to left, then from left to right. And
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: here's one of the really curious things. There's one of
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: these injuries that actually the trajectory takes it upward like that.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Wait, which one is that? Which one is that?
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: I'd have to refer back to my notes at this
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: point in time, Nancy. But if you go to h
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: for instance, it's four centimeters deep and you're talking about
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: from left to right. However, if you go to.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: I've got to ask you a very fundamental question, and
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: this is from a lawyer, not a medical professional, Josh Sandy.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Ellen's right handed? Correct? Ellen was right handed?
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, we've asked that before.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Okay, are we sure because I've been told
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: she's right handed?
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Are we sure Ellen was right handed?
• 17:46
  Speaker 9: Yes?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's all I needed to know. You sure did?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: You sure did? Justin Morgan, some of.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: The wounds are left to right, which I completely understand
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: if she's right handed. But how how do you do,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: in addition to all the steps to the back and
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: to the top of the.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Head and to the back of your necke.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: How do you stab yourself if you're right handed from.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Right to left.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: It's almost empirically impossible to do this, Nancy, because you're
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: talking about a readjustment of the blade. On the plane
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: that it's on, So you have to spin the knife
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: in a particular direction in order to achieve this. And
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: that's why I go back to this idea of the
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: paint centers that are firing. So in the midst of
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: all of this so called frenzy that would have come
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: along with a suicidal self inflicted stab wound, you're having
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: to readjust the knife backwards. You would invert the knife
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: and then pull it back to the original orientation. In
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: addition to that, and we're talking about now the injuries
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: that are posted here on the back side.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, wait, I think I just figured out what you
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: were saying. You know what, You're going to have to
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: work on your testimony, Joe Scott, because if it took
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: me that long to figure it out, I.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Think what you're saying.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Let's pretend I've gotten the knife to get those serrations
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: on her body, she'd have to take it out of
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: She'd have to take the knife and turn it around
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: and commit the next stab.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: And that is because we see which side.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Of the knife is cutting her, so she'd have to Okay,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: here's an example. You know how there is the American
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: in the European mode of cutting your meat. Europeans allegedly
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: hold the knife in the fork and they never swap.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: The American style is you swap, You cut the knife,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: you cut the meat with your right hand, you put
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: down the knife, you take the fork out of your
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: left hand and put the meat to your mouth.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: You swap back and forth. Right. Correct, That's what you're saying.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Would have to happen here for these serrations to be
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: performed by Ellen, she'd have to turn the knife around and.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Then continue stabbing herself. That did not happen.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: And again, there is no person Avengelans, There is no suspect.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: All there is is a big stinking mess because this
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: case was not investigated.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Tom Brannan joining me, Yes, okay, one of them.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Could I stop to you?
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, sure you could. But one of the biggest
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: full pause here relative to this report. And you're you're
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: breaking a norm here with this this autopsy report. Nowhere
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: in this autopsy report are the length of Ellen's arms mentioned.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: And when you're talking about and I've been involved in
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: over seven thousand autopsies, Nancy, and anytime you're talking about
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: knife wounds and you're talking about events, you have to
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: measure the arm link to see if this is even
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: possible for this to occur. This has never occurred in
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: this autopsy. We've talked about this in the past, and
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: so I cannot understand why in the world they would
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: not have taken the time to do a shot.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I thought you were waxing philosophic again on the art
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: of a medical examination, but I've never heard that mentioned before.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: The length of her arms were not taken into consideration,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: or whether she was right handed or left handed.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Hold on, hold your thought.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Tom Brennan joining me, private eye consultant for the Greenberg family.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: He's been on it from the beginning. Tom Brennan in
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: a nutshell. What happened? Every time we get together and
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: talk about this case, I learned something new. Like Joe Scott,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: just describing the length of her arms was not taken
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: into account, and that is critical. But Nay now came
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: up with the fact that at least three of these wounds,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: along with doctor Michelle Dupree.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: We're fatal. But yet she kept stabbing herself.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: In addition to the impossibility of killing yourself over twenty
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: stab wounds, if three of them were fatal and Mini
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: committed post mortem, my question to you, Tom Brennan, A
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: thank you for staying on the case. But the question
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: is what happened in between the medical examiner naming this
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: a homicide and then suddenly going, oh yeah, scratchy, scratchy,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I've now decided it's a suicide.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: What happened in the interim, Tom Brennan, Well.
• 22:40
  Speaker 8: What you have to understand there were two meetings, unrecorded meetings, okay,
• 22:50
  Speaker 8: between the medical examiner and the police, and one meeting
• 22:56
  Speaker 8: was with the a member of the District Attorney's office,
• 23:01
  Speaker 8: the police and the doctor Galino and doctor Osborne, okay,
• 23:08
  Speaker 8: And at that meeting that's when doctor Osborne decided he
• 23:14
  Speaker 8: was going to change his findings from homicide to suicide.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, hold on, John Lucy joining me from panlive
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: dot com. Did I just hear John Lucy, Tom Brennan,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: stay that after the homicide ruling, the medical examiner met
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: with law enforcement and suddenly changed his mind.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Did I hear that?
• 23:40
  Speaker 9: Yes?
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: You did.
• 23:41
  Speaker 9: And the most powerful thing that has come out due
• 23:44
  Speaker 9: to the Greenberg family's persistence on this case is they
• 23:48
  Speaker 9: have been able to get those medical examiner officials under
• 23:53
  Speaker 9: oath in sworn depositions in which both Osborne and Galino
• 24:00
  Speaker 9: spelled out the fact that these meetings occurred. So it's
• 24:03
  Speaker 9: on the record, under sworn deposition that these meetings occurred.
• 24:08
  Speaker 9: And in addition to the US the PA Supreme Court
• 24:12
  Speaker 9: case challenging the cause of death ruling, there's another civil
• 24:16
  Speaker 9: action by the Greenbergs alleging a cover up among the
• 24:20
  Speaker 9: detectives and the ememe's office in Philadelphia, and they are
• 24:25
  Speaker 9: now in the process of moving forward with depositions in
• 24:29
  Speaker 9: that case, which is finally going to get some of
• 24:32
  Speaker 9: the detectives under oath so they can be questioned about
• 24:37
  Speaker 9: what happened at that crime scene on the night of
• 24:39
  Speaker 9: her death, what happened.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: To beloved Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: agrees to review the case amidst a controversial ruling.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Controversial, well, that's certainly one way to put it. Ken.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: We just all agree and if anybody on the panel disagrees,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: up in how many times do I have to tell
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: you we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle with
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Charles and Camilla jump in. Number one, no fingerprints were
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: taken on the knife. Number two, no forensic tests were
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: done on the door. Was it really latched?
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Was it really was it broken into? What really happened?
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Was there any evidence.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Taken regarding fingerprints on the rest of the cabinets?
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Was luminol ever used?
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Why was her laptop and her cell phone taken from
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the apartment? Why was the cleaning crew called in to
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: clean the apartment before it could be fully processed.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: There are so many questions.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Most important in my mind, what happened in that closed
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: your meeting with the medical examiner and members of law
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: enforcement who ruled it suicide on the scene before any investigation.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: What happened in that meeting?
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: what we know right now?
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: But first, more of the nine on one call.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: And remember, no one has been named a person of interest,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: no one has been named a suspect. But I can
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: tell you this, this was not a suicide. Why has
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: this case been suppressed? What is it that law enforcement?
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about, the district Attorney's office I'm talking about, yes,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I'm saying it, the Attorney General's office. Why don't they
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: want this case investigated?
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: What's the problem? Listen to this?
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: Okay, look, I have to tell you what to do.
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: So you get here so good? Yeah, okay, Well out
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: with me over the fall.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: I have to right, okay, so you know, play on
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: her bank for her chest, gang for sure.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, feel me out by her side.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: You can't freak out, Okay, I'm trying trying to her.
• 27:22
  Speaker 9: Won't come off into a difference.
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: Oh god, she said herself?
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: Where she sole a knife?
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: Oh no, her NIC's sticking out?
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: What because the next sticking out of her heart?
• 27:34
  Speaker 12: Stand herself? I guess where you're going it.
• 27:37
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: Okay, Well, don't suck it.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: So many things you're jumping out at me. From that night.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: On one call number one, uh, when the caller is
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: told to try to do c p R, the caller says,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I have to right. Then he the caller says, oh
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: m g. She stabbed herself. Where did that come from?
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Number two, number three, the caller says, she fell on
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: a knife. She fell on a knife. No, the knife
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: sticking out fell on a knife. That's a unique theory. Okay. Again,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I cannot reiterate enough that no one has been named
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: a suspect or a person of interest.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I want to go back to John Lucy.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Joining us, joining US journalists for pen live dot com.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: And followed by Ben ay an.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Hour John who do you understand to have been at
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: that meeting where the medical examiner suddenly had some sort
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: of an epiphany and named the multiple stabbing a sealer
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: side based on.
• 29:01
  Speaker 9: The deposition of Galino and Osbourne. There were detectives who
• 29:05
  Speaker 9: were handling the case who were pressing their own version
• 29:10
  Speaker 9: of evidence of suicide, and the things that are named
• 29:14
  Speaker 9: in the deposition as their evidence is the lack of
• 29:18
  Speaker 9: defensive wounds on her hands. In other words, if she
• 29:21
  Speaker 9: was being stabbed by an assailant, you raise your hands
• 29:25
  Speaker 9: and you have stab wounds on the hands. That was
• 29:27
  Speaker 9: one and the second thing that was mentioned by those
• 29:32
  Speaker 9: detectives to the emmy's officials to change the ruling was
• 29:36
  Speaker 9: the locked door, the latch, the hotel latch which may
• 29:40
  Speaker 9: or may not have actually been broken off on both
• 29:43
  Speaker 9: sides enter that room. And again it all goes back
• 29:47
  Speaker 9: to the night of her death, and for whatever reason,
• 29:51
  Speaker 9: those responding detectives treated it as a suicide, and they
• 29:56
  Speaker 9: bought into the narrative established on the nine to one
• 29:58
  Speaker 9: to one call that was a suicide, and they did
• 30:01
  Speaker 9: not preserve the scene to be fully processed, and by
• 30:07
  Speaker 9: the time that the meme ruled it a homicide, and
• 30:10
  Speaker 9: by the time the detectives got back, you're right, it
• 30:13
  Speaker 9: was cleaned by a professional cleaning crew. And even the
• 30:18
  Speaker 9: video that the hotel manager shot of the apartment as
• 30:23
  Speaker 9: it existed before the cleaning that has been subsequently lost.
• 30:28
  Speaker 9: That was turned over to police, and now that tape
• 30:31
  Speaker 9: of what existed in that apartment before the cleaning is
• 30:34
  Speaker 9: gone as well. And that's all on the record.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: The bizarre case of Ellen Greenberg, the twenty seven year
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: old Philly teacher found dead in her own home, stabbed
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: twenty times, ruled a suicide.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: What happened to Ellen? Let me understand something to you.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: J Justscott Morgan, professor, forensic's death investigator and author. Were
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: her fingernail scrapings ever taken?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Do we know?
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: Not?
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: To the best of my knowledge.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: No, you've heard bandied about that there were no defensive wounds.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: What say you?
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And also, what do you make of markings on Ellen's
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: neck and multiple bruisings across her body in various stages
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: of healing.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we refer to those in forensic pathology as resolution,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: And so you've got multiple areas of small bruises contusions
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: that are in various stages of healing throughout the body.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: And that's that's certainly very interesting. And I remember asking
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Josh and Sandy years ago. I think we had a conversation.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I said, did Ellen have a problem walking or a
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: problem with her gate or was there is some kind
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: of inner ear problem where she had some kind of
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: problem with balance, She's bouncing off of walls and furniture,
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: and and they couldn't come up. You know, they said, no, No,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: that wasn't the case. So you know, why would she
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: have And I even wanted to know she had some
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: kind of disorder, blood disorder or something. Maybe she's just
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: spontaneously bruising. I have no idea. But none of that,
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: none of that, none of that can be.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Proved back to the markings on her neck.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when we're talking about markings on the neck, Nancy,
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: that's something that is so crucial relative to their current
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: status at autopsy, relative to how fresh they are are
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: they going through resolution at this point in time. And
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: I think that it's very important in this case because
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: the neck, the neck on anyone that is being that
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: is being stabbed. Is a point of contact where a
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: perpetrator would their hands on somebody's neck. It's a point
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: of control in order to drive a blade into somebody's body.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: That has to be examined, very very carefully.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: To Sandy Greenberg, what do you make of the fact
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: that no illuminol was ever used at the scene. The
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: scene was cleaned by professional cleaners. Her fingernails were never scraped,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and I firmly believe that there is evidence her body
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: was moved before police or first responders got there.
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: I'm horrified that she was treated so poorly, and I'm
• 33:39
  Speaker 7: embarrassed for the Philadelphia Police Department. They wouldn't They wouldn't
• 33:46
  Speaker 7: do that to any of their if any of their
• 33:49
  Speaker 7: children were in this situation, they wouldn't be treated like this.
• 33:54
  Speaker 7: She paid taxes, and she deserves the same justice and
• 33:58
  Speaker 7: the same attention that everyone else gets or should get.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I'm just very curious, John Lucy, joining US journalist pen
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Live and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, why her fingernails
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: were never removed to see if she scratched anyone how
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: with a straight face, a medical examiner state, how could
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: he state she had three potentially fatal stabs and kept
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: stabbing herself after that, those demilitating stabs. How she stabbed
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: herself in the spine, nicking the dura and kept going.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: How she got stabs on the very top of her
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: head virtually impossible, No luminol was done, and very very significant,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: John Lucy. There was dried blood going horizontally across her face,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: dried that way, Yet she was found by first responders
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: sitting up, slumped up vertically against the kitchen cabinets. The
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: blood should have been going down, not across.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: That indicates staging. John Lucy.
• 35:19
  Speaker 9: Well, we call that the wrong way blood. And it's
• 35:23
  Speaker 9: one of the many anomalies at the crime scene that
• 35:27
  Speaker 9: was treated as a suicide scene the night of her
• 35:30
  Speaker 9: death and thus never preserved and never processed. That is
• 35:35
  Speaker 9: the original sin of this whole case. And that's why
• 35:38
  Speaker 9: this case, even if it goes to the PA Supreme
• 35:42
  Speaker 9: Court and is ruled that they can be reinvestigated as
• 35:46
  Speaker 9: a homicide, likely never ends in a perpetrator being identified
• 35:52
  Speaker 9: because with the way that scene was handled, all that
• 35:57
  Speaker 9: evidence was erased as for that and the spinal cord
• 36:03
  Speaker 9: specimen that was preserved from the original autopsy, but it
• 36:08
  Speaker 9: was never fully sectioned and photographed until many years later,
• 36:14
  Speaker 9: after the Greenbergs kept up their own investigation and Galino
• 36:21
  Speaker 9: finally turned that Dora over to another assistant. Emmy.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: She processed it, she investigated.
• 36:28
  Speaker 9: It, and she's the first one to put on the
• 36:31
  Speaker 9: record in a sworn deposition that the spinal cord wound
• 36:36
  Speaker 9: had no bleeding associated with it, meaning it was a
• 36:40
  Speaker 9: post mortem wound. And that is all on the record
• 36:44
  Speaker 9: in the sworn depositions that the Greenbergs have secured as
• 36:49
  Speaker 9: part of their lawsuits.
• 36:51
  Speaker 12: The body of Ellen Greenberg is transported to the medical
• 36:53
  Speaker 12: examiner's office with the knife still lodged in her chest.
• 36:57
  Speaker 12: Doctor Marlon Osborne discovers Ellen has been stabbed twenty times
• 37:00
  Speaker 12: in the chest, neck, and head. Ten of the stab
• 37:02
  Speaker 12: wounds are to her back and neck, eight of the
• 37:05
  Speaker 12: stab wounds are to her chest. Doctor Osborne notes that
• 37:08
  Speaker 12: the knife embedded in her left chest is through her clothing.
• 37:11
  Speaker 12: Ellen Greenberg is wearing two shirts when she is stabbed,
• 37:14
  Speaker 12: and the defects in the shirts are consistent with the
• 37:16
  Speaker 12: underlying wounds.
• 37:17
  Speaker 11: And more significantly, listen performing the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg,
• 37:22
  Speaker 11: doctor Marlon Osborne notes that Beyond the stabs to the
• 37:26
  Speaker 11: back and the neck area, Ellen also has a two
• 37:29
  Speaker 11: inch stab wound to her stomach and a two and
• 37:32
  Speaker 11: a half inch long gash across her scalp. Ellen also
• 37:36
  Speaker 11: has eleven bruises all over her body, her right arm, leg,
• 37:40
  Speaker 11: and abdomen that are all in various stages of healing.
• 37:44
  Speaker 11: Doctor Marlon Osborne rules Ellen Greenberg's death a homicide.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I don't understand so many aspects of this case.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: But Sandy and Josh Greenberg breaking their silence, now, how
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: could Ellen, who is right handed, stab herself repeatedly in
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: her right arm? How how do you with your right
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: hand stab yourself in your right arm? And who could
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: keep stabbing themselves after three fatal stab wounds.
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: The whole thing is just a I can't say it
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: on the air, but it is just a big mess.
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: It doesn't make any sense. None of it makes any sense.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: The fact that two knives makes no sense, the fact
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: that the way the wounds are make no sense.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: The fact she has.
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: A brutal wound on the top of her head makes
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: no sense.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Sandy, why is.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: It so important, as you've said in the past, to
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: clear Ellen's name.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: She's already lost her life. Why is it important to
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: you that her death be fully investigated?
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: It's wrong and for me, I need to be able
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: to lay my head on my pillow at night and
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: know that I did everything I needed to do, and
• 39:04
  Speaker 6: this is very important to me.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Why do you believe, Sandy, that anyone would want to
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: cover up the true nature of Ellen's murder.
• 39:17
  Speaker 7: When we were being deposed by the city for the lawsuit,
• 39:24
  Speaker 7: I had five different attorneys questioning me and insisting you
• 39:31
  Speaker 7: trying to put words in my mouth and insisting upon
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: this being a suicide, which it clearly wasn't. I was
• 39:41
  Speaker 7: just so professionally speaking. I would be so ashamed of
• 39:46
  Speaker 7: myself if I were them.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: But why? My question is why would anyone do this?
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: There are two reasons. A the police did allow the investigation. B.
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: Someone's being protected. I can't think of any other reasons.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: We wait and we pray that justice will unfold in
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Thank you to all of
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: our guests, especially to Josh and Sandy Greenberg, my friends,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Busy Gray Sundell, Goodbye friend.