Latest / The Bridges and Beacons Podcast / High Stakes Conversations with Liz Goll Lerner

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High Stakes Conversations with Liz Goll Lerner · The Bridges and Beacons Podcast

• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello, hello.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: We're so happy to have you with us tonight.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Tonight, I am joined by Liz Gold Learner.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna tell you a little bit about Liz.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Liz has over 30 years of experience as a coach, counselor, and art therapist.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: A true pioneer, she's developed very highly respected groundbaking, psychoeducational, and therapeutic programs for her own practice and for health centers across the nation.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Her passion is to ensure that all conversations from the bedroom to the boardroom create a world we all want to live in.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: I love this and I love our topic tonight, high-stakes conversations.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think so many of us can relate to the conversations that have gone very wrong in our lives and felt unprepared.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I hope people are sitting there with a notebook for how to make this work better.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, Liz, welcome.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to be here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh how about you just start with what would you consider a high-stakes conversation or what defines the high-stakes conversation?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, when I was preparing for having our conversation, I was thinking, you know, all of our con aren't all of our conversations high stakes, right?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Don't we really want every time we have a conversation for it to go well, especially if we're invested in something?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: When we talk about high-stakes conversations from the bedroom to the boardroom, so we're talking about relationships, we're talking about work issues, we're talking about friendships, um, we're talking about this is maybe not a high-stakes conversation, but if we're talking about having the world, you know, be a better place to live, kind of all our interactions with people um potentially our high-stakes conversations because it defines how we live in the world and how much joy or lack thereof, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you think gives people the most trouble in in conversations?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: What are like the game changers for them?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think there are a few um really important blocks or things that really kind of go awry.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and usually it's about um being nervous.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's about, you know, worrying about what you're gonna say, how you're gonna say it, when you're gonna say it, instead of being present in the moment, understanding what your goal is, what your vision is for the conversation, and just actually saying it.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: So people get do a lot of preamble, right?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I can relate to that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm probably a preambler.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, hey, you know, I was kind of thinking about no no no no no, and you know, maybe you're not gonna like what I'm gonna say, but maybe you will.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and so then the anxiety, and that that's just a light one, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe the anxiety just starts building more people because like, oh my god, like what what are they gonna say to me?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, why why the buildup?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like what can happen here?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and a lot of times it's because people are just trying to be really nice.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they might have something um a request they want to make of someone that they're in a relationship with or a friendship or um need a favor or um you know have have a problem that they want to talk about and they don't know how to get into the subject.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it gets kind of edgy until they actually plant the the actual topic on the table.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so how do you do that better?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just asking for a friend.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're all that friend, right?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, definitely.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think one thing is to plan ahead, right?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: If you know you're gonna ask somebody for something, or you know that there's a problem that you want to talk about, or um, you know, even if you want to talk to um a higher up at your at your work and you're asking for, you know, anything, a promotion, or going into a review, or um wanting to make a change in your hours.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um especially now with COVID and you know, everybody going back and forth and not knowing really what they're doing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um when you know what you want, it's good to practice.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: If you're really nervous about a conversation, look in the mirror and just say it.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Say it a bunch of times, you know.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Prepare, have it, have it sound, have you show up the way you really want to show up.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you don't have to just plop yourself into the conversation.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can, you know, have a vision of how you want it to go, have a positive outcome in mind, be prepared if somebody isn't going to agree with you, know whether or not you're gonna let your emotions take over, and make some decisions about how you want to show up and what you want to say, and all of that pre-work is is a total recipe for success.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I believe that because I've definitely done the opposite.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: The preambling, the emotional like charge, the anxiety leading up to the conversation and rehearsing the anxiety and things going wrong, versus, like you said, having like that good visualization of it working out better than you expected or exactly the way you want it to.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and how do you end up if somebody isn't liking what you say, how do you end up being neutral instead of reactive?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like being prepared for everything, like, oh, they're gonna love it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yay, we can collaborate and move forward in some way.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, wow, like I really don't like what you're saying, and you're really hurting my feelings, and I can't believe you just said that to me.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then you say, Oh, wow, like that was not my intention.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so sorry.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see how we can talk about this so you really understand where I'm coming from, if you are able.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: You might be too mad at me, and I hope not, but yeah, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's not just about ourselves when we're in conversation, it's about compassion for the other person, or not putting someone, if it's a boss, let's say an employer, not putting them so far high, higher up than you are that you can't possibly feel your power.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we're all human, we're all you know, we have the same, you know, concerns, thoughts, fears, triumphs, and um putting yourself in somebody else's shoes sometimes makes the conversation a lot easier.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think I hear what you're saying too, is the is being in the present moment.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: So really kind of you come in with what you want to say, you've rehearsed it, but then you're allowing the other person who may or may not have been prepared for what you were going to say to have that moment to experience it, but you don't have to react to their reaction, they get to have their reaction, right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: But then you get to stay neutral.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, exactly.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because so even though we're all human, we are not the same, we're not each other.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm having a conversation with you and you react, I don't have to, I don't have to join you in whatever your reaction is, positive or negative or neutral.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to take it on.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to have it be um a comment about me or my wish or my my thought, because you're a separate person.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna have your own thoughts and reactions.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: And and we we get a little bit, it gets really complicated, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: When we believe that somebody should just agree with us, or when um we take it personally if they don't, right, or um but you know, I want to go back to the present in the moment piece because that's the trickiest part, and then there's another little piece that I think people need to dig into, but when you're thinking about you're not present, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: If you're sitting like here we are having our conversation, right?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: And if I'm thinking about my cat, I'm not listening to you, I'm not present with you, right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Or thinking about my next errand, or thinking about what I, you know, what I did just before, or any of it, or what you're gonna say next, or how I plan my next sentence.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not here with you, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm in my head, totally, and and I'm not in my body, and I'm not feeling into you, and uh, and you're not gonna feel potentially a connection with me, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, and you know how we do that the worst.
• 10:29
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: When this thing comes into play.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, just oh wait, let me just check.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, what were you saying?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: I know not as important as my phone, you know.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the simplest, quickest, it's part of a a technique I teach, but to get into your body and get present is to put all your attention on your feet.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Take a breath, put all your attention on your feet and just try it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like we're just gonna put our attention on our feet.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: No other if a thought comes in, you just go to the feet.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: You feel your feet connected to the floor, you take a breath.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: You might even just do that for a sec, take a breath.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't look too weird.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: And here you are, here we are.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like I even just doing that for that second, I feel more present in my body and more present with you than I did a minute ago.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I did try it, and it's it I really love that because I've used similar strategy um, like during presentations where you're presenting in front of a large group, and you know, you you don't want to be so in your head that you're not you're you're just reading off of your PowerPoint.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: You want to be able to talk and engage with the audience.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so one of the things that I always do right before speaking is like really planting my feet into the ground, feeling connected and feeling like the presentation that I'm giving is part of a bigger picture and I'm just part of it.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then I can't feel like that, like being under the microscope because I'm just a piece of the of the giant puzzle.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: I I think another way to put it, at least in you know, in my world, is um it's just not your attention is not on you anymore.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's on the vision, it's on what you're doing, it's on the conversation, it's on the connection, but it's not about oh, you know, what do I look like?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: What do I sound like?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: What's it gonna be like?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's the same in a conversation.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um and the reason I think that getting there there's so many reasons why getting into your body is important, but for our conversation, the reason that getting present and being in the body is so important is that from that position we can be in neutral, we can actually have choice.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: If we're running a story and we're operating from that story and we're not in our bodies, we're we're kind of like a leaf in the wind, you know, we're we're being reactive.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: We're not we're not just like, oh wait, am I really hearing what this person is is trying to communicate to me?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Or am I just in my story of what they're gonna say next?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Or am I in the last conversation we had?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: We've done that too.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because we do that all the time, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Especially with partners or things like it's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you're gonna say.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, no, actually, you don't.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: You really don't.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: If you wait, you know, yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that's you know, with really high-stakes conversations, like you know, serious relationship conversations, or even conversations that companies have with each other who are trying to impact the planet, um, or countries.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: Here we have a serious situation going on in the world, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And here's some news about situation world right now.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Siri really Siri wants to comment on that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Talk about the world.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: Siri just apologized.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Is that hysterical?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's hysterical.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Siri.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Siri.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Siri wanted to comment on the serious nature of the world right now.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Everything on the communication.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and you know what?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: How much of our lives are we communicating with computer systems?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or or texting, right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: That is like the visual.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that, well, let me just say this one go back to that piece, and then that's really important, I think.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because, well, let's do it.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because when people are having high-stakes conversations in text, I have a lot of couples that I work with who actually are texting each other these really important things.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine the nuance that's lost and the interpretation that's assumed?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you can't actually know what's happening on a text.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Even regular, you know, texting, people get really offended when you know the phone change type, you know, does a correction.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oops, autocorrect.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: Autocorrect, right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: But um, what I was gonna say before about like serious, serious conversations is that a lot of times there's a lot of emotional content.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And what really ruins those game changer conversations sometimes is that you can be going on a script.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like um uh nonviolent communication is a wonderful method, but if somebody is using that technique, but emotionally they are fraught or they're expecting a negative outcome, then um that the the um the outcome of that conversation is tainted because we read all of that.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: We know as humans, we sense it, we see it, we see it in the eyes, we see it in the in the mouth, we see it in the how we hold the body, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: So really being able to get present in the moment, go back into neutral, but also really work on what can come up in those really serious conversations so that you know what you're what might push you in a direction that you don't want to go, or that might be perceived by somebody else.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: So you really want to be in the body so that you have choice about what you're saying, how you're saying it, why you're saying it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm thinking about the the funny cell phone, you know.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I is that like yeah, is that like like that's just the kind of the tip of the iceberg about things that go wrong in our ordinary conversations?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like one, we try to have it digitally versus like face to face where we have that.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: But what else do we do in our ordinary conversations, you know, that really, you know, usurp the effectiveness of them?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, not listening was one.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like like being distracted.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: We've kind of talked about that, but there's so many ways that people do that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um multitasking, trying to get to a to an end result before the conversations happened.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like pushing to the goal, pushing to the goal, but not really not really hearing or or taking the steps.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know, what do you have some things in mind as well?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was I was thinking about that too, and you know, when I've gone wrong, like the the things that you highlighted, the you know, kind of keeping like right here the last conversation you had with someone and like waiting for that like verbal assault, like oop, I'm gonna toss this one in here.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that time that you you know, um, and not I really like what you said earlier on about having compassion for the person you're talking to.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: When you're especially if you're bringing up something that maybe requires both of you to be vulnerable in some way, yeah you know, and that if you could have compassion for the other person and give them the the gift of your presence, yeah, and truly listening to what they have to say rather than just like the like dump and run, you know, which I think is like texting, you just kind of like get it out there and like ghost.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to you don't have to be accountable.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's one of the things that with phones and and texting, you know, early on people were really worried about with um adolescents, is that they weren't learning how to actually be empathic and have a conversation face to face or even on their phones that was had connectivity and was were was relational.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, um, but I think you know, when you talk about bringing in that that old conversation, I think that's such an important thing because when we're not when we're doing that and we're not present in the moment, really, what we're actually doing, I found, is that we're responding to the person we're talking to now, but we're responding as if we're in the old conversation.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: So if something was an irritant, then our tone is picking up the irritation from that conversation.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: That person that you're talking to now doesn't know it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: So you sound irritated, they're not back in that conversation potentially.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you just brought them there, but you brought them right whoa, why are they being so you know edgy with me?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: So only if somebody says, hey, wait a minute, what did I miss something?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, does something happen here that I don't I don't know about?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, why are you sounding like that?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: But how many people do it?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: How many people actually say, Oh, you know, they're mad at me, why are they mad at me?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: But they don't say it out loud, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right, and so you know, a lot of times we just don't have the awareness that that could be happening, but you're sitting there feeling annoyed, but there's no reason in the conversation to be annoyed, right?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's that's something to really look out for.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I I'm definitely like picturing in my mind like moments when that happened.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or if if you're like an overthinker, like I contend to be, you overthought the conversation, right, and you imagined the person responding in a certain way, and you're already feeling a certain way in response to the way that you your own story to your own story, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, yeah, exactly.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: Happens a lot.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, a lot, a lot.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a very creative writer in my own head.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: I come up with very That's the tricky thing, right?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because actually that controls so much of what we get worried about, right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: And and how we're we're predictive, like we we that conversation's already happened in our HUD.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: So why do we need to have it?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like we're already at the punchline.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: But we may be so wrong, you know, like because it's all assumption.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Our own fear.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's a story around our own fear or what we want or you know what we want to say and are afraid to say.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: And when we just take a breath and actually listen.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: So with my coaching and and uh therapy clients do a lot of active listening helping them you know figure out and and there is that if you if you ever feel like you've kind of lost yourself outside of a conversation you know you're like oh where am I here?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you can really just say to somebody they say something to you I hear you say that blah blah blah blah blah is that correct and all of a sudden you're you're back right they feel heard they can correct you you feel like you're there you say what you want to say and all of a sudden all of that energy gets kind of like grounded and everybody's breathing and because there's the pause right there's oh you really heard me that's commute communication is feeling like somebody really heard you cares about what you're saying caring about what they what they're saying to move you either just to have that experience right or to move you to the next place in the goal whether it's a a vision of governments a vision of you know service organizations a vision of friendships a vision of couples a vision of partnerships of any kind it's like you know parents and children that's a big one yeah those are high stage conversations always right right yeah yeah yeah so how how do you create a win-win in a conversation you know it's an interesting question because when you asked I went to like three different places and and one place was the win is in actually having an understanding right it depends on what that means it depends on what you're trying to accomplish um people aren't always gonna agree so it's finding common ground if you can or it's you know figuring out the goal together or it's just actually letting yourself and the person know that that something actually took place here like you actually heard each other right um the other piece my other two just went out the window that I'm trying to remember one of them um the win-win part yeah so that also speaks to so win-win is a wonderful concept right everybody wins it all goes well everybody's happy you know but on the other side of win-win is conflict it's uh how do I avoid conflict so what position are you actually walking into that conversation in right like where are you coming from what's your starting point if you're starting with conflict or the idea that there could be conflict or um I could lose it's already a tainted conversation right because it's that's gonna guide what you say how you feel how you respond to what that person is saying which means actually you're not present right and I know that wasn't your question really do you know what I mean?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah like win-win it is like how do I get a good outcome right right the good outcome is is being being kind yeah the good outcome is listening being kind having compassion you know having it be okay to say what you think in a kind way and and listening to what they want to say and allowing and if they're not being kind say hey you know you're not being kind so I'm gonna remove myself from this conversation or let's give it another shot right it's the it's the I I came up with like three words like adult neutral positive but it's it's the it's the it's the way of of being in a conversation that allows you to maintain your self-respect and your boundaries while still having compassion and being willing to hear.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah so there are those conversations where they're just conversations then there are those conversations where people are are you know upset and then might be rude or or blamey or whatever.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: But we all always have the right to say hey you know but in a nice way in a clear calm I'm in my power in my body kind of way you know I'm really not available to have you speak to me that way.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I am really happy to have you tell me how you feel yeah but not that way and if you can't do it we can talk another time happy to hear right but I but no you know that's not gonna work for me today.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and that's okay I think a lot of people feel like it's it's not okay that they like once you've entered in a conversation it's kind of like you have to stick it to the end no matter what um and that when you say what really messes it up that can really mess it up.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah right because it's kind of like the cartoon right where you know the cat and the dog are spinning around and nobody has taken a pause.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah say wait a minute what's actually happening here like we're not even talking about the original we're just kind of doing our reactive thing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah definitely definitely what what kind of conversations are we talking about when we say that yeah well I'm I'm thinking in particular uh I had an employer going back like more than 10 years uh not current employer but uh I was resigning for very good reasons you know one being they were bouncing my paychecks so and at the time I was in such like it's a good reason right that that alone is probably a good reason so it was a husband and wife team and um the husband managed paying doing the paychecks and I worked closely with the wife and so when I approached her I was just resigning giving my you know couple weeks of notice she responded very aggressively and we got into a screaming match which is definitely not my not my typical you know behavior but at the time felt just very trapped and you know lots of threats going back and forth and um you know her saying I was trying to ruin her marriage and I was making up stories and you know so it was very I I feel like I thought in the moment I was standing in my power by you know planting my feet and giving it right back to her.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if it were to happen today I probably would have just like you said remained neutral at her escalation and said okay so I'm I was going to give you two weeks notice but if this is what I can anticipate for my remaining time then I'm leaving right now.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right right exactly exactly exactly so clearly that was about her stuff.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: It had nothing to do with oh yes for sure right yeah yeah yeah and I mean I I think I also think that I probably should have had a conversation earlier on to say like this is acceptable this is not acceptable.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right right of course you know and I just don't think I had the the knowledge or the wherewithal to figure that out at that time right right yeah that's a powerful story because it it really um it really speaks to how people got so charged up and and especially when they feel attacked right um and on some level she felt attacked and on another level you were being attacked so you know yeah we're gonna we're gonna respond to that all right you know yeah um yeah don't don't speak to me that way you know but um but yeah I mean I'm sure you know well thank you for letting me know uh that today is actually the best day for me to leave and I'm on my way you know but you know that's the difference when you're a little bit a little bit younger a little bit less experienced in the world you know and I I just didn't know a different way to approach it you know and felt very trapped and like I wasn't able to to ask for what I needed which was to leave to go to do something different.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you were doing that really right I mean you were leaving you were giving them notice yep yeah and I think it's tricky because I think people of all ages do get stuck in those kind of moments right and then afterwards you kind of go okay wait a minute what was that about like how could I you know what was was there any alternative like what what was happening um yeah yeah I I I think at that point there I didn't see an alternative I just spent like all like exactly what you said that anxiety that like rehearsal of how it was gonna go right and that's not what I expected she she was like oh no it's not gonna go that way I'm just gonna yell at you yeah blame you for my life yeah exactly uh you know so we all it's all a learning experience of course for sure for sure oh my goodness so funny enough I you know I've I've talked about it I've you know written about it but I called it you know my my second divorce it was a year after my actual divorce that I did this but I called it my second divorce because it really kind of felt that way so and I know that's a hot topic for you.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: It is it is it's a it's an exciting topic for me weirdly to say but and not weird to me having been through it it's not weird but yeah so I've been through it too and um I developed a program called Divorce Well and Thrive many years ago it's a coaching program for people to divorce well and in the next maybe month or two I have a book coming out called Divorce Well and Thrive that really teaches people see I think this book is it's called Divorce Well and Thrive and it's about divorce and it's kind of a handbook for you know thinking about it.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah it's kind of like the first chapter is called So You think you really want to get a divorce and so you go through kind of this this query but it's very instructional but it's also um tells a lot of stories and teaches my techniques.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that there's a piece of our conversation today that's sort of um pivotal in that conversation in those kinds of conversations.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: Those are the kind of from a family perspective the most high stakes conversations you can have um and uh but I the wisdom in it really is wisdom that if you do the technique in the book you can live your life entirely uh in in a lot more alignment you know very definitely um and that's really exciting because you can take that into any relationship and yeah any experience um so yeah so um a piece of that uh was kind of the the how do you call it the the basis for um my one of my new creations which is enlightened communication institute oh tell me more about that yeah so you know again it's really about um there's a piece of it that's for that's personal you know things like the Divorce Well and Thrive um coaching program um accelerated breakthrough coaching that I created and so on but there's another part that's about mission driven organizations and how do people actually who really want to impact the world have those conversations in a way that's going to be successful so that we can change the environment we can you know people who are fighting can talk better yeah oh I love that I think I think that's it's so so very needed you know and I also think that we have such a fast moving culture and society now you know with the digital age and everything happened so quickly that like we need to be able to get to those critical conversations faster than used to be necessary because things are just happening at such a rapid pace.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and so you know what I love about some of the work I'm doing is it really helps people to move into those positions very quickly.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you know there are there are some things that take a long time to solve and heal and and so on but there are also ways to do both right to come into a position in yourself like putting your attention on your feet.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well if you put your attention on your feet and you feel like you're present in the body well that only took you know a second or two if you really do it and you do like my whole thing it might take you know 15 minutes initially and then you can do it in a minute right so it's it's kind of like how do we get into a position where we can be available for the most pivotal conversations in our lives or in our communities or in our you know on the planet so that you know maybe the environment doesn't have to you know global warming doesn't have to go so fast and maybe you know people don't have to be at war or maybe we solve you know certain aspects of homelessness or you know where there's some kind of way to bring people together where positioning stops them.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because a lot of times it's positioning right like even in divorce or even in you know businesses or you know no I want it this way no I want it this way no this this contract has to go that way and I'm not gonna give this up and it's positioning right so it's it's how do we move beyond positioning into collaboration.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: And how do we get what you're talking about which is the win-win yeah that perspective yeah so that's what I'm really that's what I'm really interested in.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah but yeah but getting quicker to that like dialogue exactly and like that true engagement in the moment right in the conversation versus like just like you said like this is what I want no this is what I want and it's just more people stating what they want it's like the text.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is right this is me I'm not I'm not reading you.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah there's nowhere to go yeah but I think that when people begin to take a shortcut into like what is the feeling behind what I'm doing does it match right like if I'm talking about having a positive outcome in some way but I'm really angry it's gonna be really it's gonna be hard to bring bring that positive outcome unless I look at what's happening with that and figure out something to do with it.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really understanding parts of self.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean we could have another whole hour conversation right but yeah you know no I and I I was thinking too while you were saying that like I think it's also like bringing in the self-care like who you show up as you know you've already shown up and having cared for yourself and done all the work to feel good and be present because you're not feeling at at a loss you know and feeling secure in your yourself as a human being and as deserving like you were talking about before not getting stuck on like this person has all the power and I don't have the power.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right not on loss and and vulnerability.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think the um part of Enlightened communication institute is also the um a course that I created called Enlightened Communication through luminous living and it's exactly what you're talking about.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's looking at um how do you actually maintain and align yourself with your central core self, which is your power right and then how are you in conversation with the parts of yourself so that you actually understand what is pushing you and then that part of you that central core can kind of direct instead of having the vulnerable part direct or the happy part direct or the scared part direct or the angry part.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's an archipel but it's it's a very simple one so that it's like the protector the connector the scribe the you know all the parts that kind of show up when we're having one of those conversations and could take the lead yeah but when you know like you're saying when you understand yourself then you can direct the conversation that you're having yeah right yeah so it's exciting it is exciting and I I I am I am legitimately very excited for for your book that's coming out I can't wait to read it and I can't wait to have a conversation when uh you come back about it and we can we can talk more divorce yeah I know it's a like we're gonna talk about divorce it's gonna be fun well but you know if you can find joy in that you can find joy in anything right that's that is definitely for sure that is for sure.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: So um what else would you like people to know what do you have going on that they can join you in how how can they best connect with you um probably the best way they can connect is through the website which would be your inspired choices.com and they can just go to the go button on the top right to get on the mailing list there all or they can go to the contact page and pick something that they're interested in that they want to know you know know about more specifically.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: For anybody who's listening who might be thinking about divorce uh pretty soon I'm going to be offering a um uh a boot camp a four-week boot camp um that will be um kind of quick and to the point um so that's gonna be coming up soon they might want to email and if they're interested in that and that's really the best way.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I love it.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well thanks so much for joining us.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: This was a really cool conversation about high stakes conversations.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well thank you you you really pulled out some great strategies and I think you know as people were listening in they could pick up on some things that they could very simply apply right now in the conversations that they're having.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and I always think that that's such a great way to go because you know it getting into our body the breathing the planting our feet on the ground those are things we have available to us no matter where we are no matter who we're with and like you said it's it's not very apparent that that's what you're doing.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it can be super super helpful.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: And just remember that we we do have choice.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right that's true.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well Liz thank you so much for being here I look forward to hearing all about Divorce Well and Thrive when it comes out thank you too we'll look forward to our fun conversation it probably will be sure well here we are right having here we are it is what it is right all right and I wish you all well stay curious everybody bye now