Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.306 'Clinical Conversations That Work' with special guest Jo Turner of Mehab

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Ep.306 'Clinical Conversations That Work' with special guest Jo Turner of Mehab · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
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Hey everybody, welcome. It's episode 306 of the STA Clinician Podcast,
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formerly known as the Sports Therapy Association Podcast, connecting clinicians
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across healthcare every Tuesday at eight o'clock UK time.
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I am your host, Matt Phillips, and as always, this episode is being streamed
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live on YouTube channel and Facebook.
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So very shortly, I'll be bringing up my special guest, the wonderful Joe Turner,
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founder of mehab.co.uk and creator of Coaching Unpeeled, who will be talking
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to me about clinical conversations that work,
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which is the title of the presentation that Joe will be delivering at Therapy
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Show in four weeks' time now, alongside Coaching Unpeeled co-founder Joanne Elphinstone,
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who many of you will know as the creator of GEMS.
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That's going to be on day one, so that's Wednesday, November the 25th,
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for those of you who are managing to get to the NEC this year at 11.10 in the
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Clinical Skills Lab Theatre.
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Before I bring Joe up, I must thank, as always, my guest from last week, who is Gronia Donnelly,
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pelvic health physiotherapist, doctoral researcher, and most recently editor
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of the scientific textbook, Sports Medicine and the Pelvic Floor, Science to Practice.
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On the episode, Gornier discussed key insights from the new textbook,
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including screening and training approaches for pelvic floor dysfunction in
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athletes and everyday active women, and knowledge translation for clinicians.
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Gornier is also going to be speaking at this year's Therapy Show with a presentation
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entitled Return to Sport After Pregnancy, a sports medicine lens.
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I'm generally happy that everybody is speaking at Therapy Show,
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but I'm really happy that Grenier is getting across the water this year.
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An amazing educator, such a passionate speaker. So I encourage you,
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all of you, to somehow go along to that one.
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That's Wednesday, day one, 1110.
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In the Clinical Skills Lab Theatre. That podcast episode is available,
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as always, on YouTube channel if you'd like to watch the recorded video.
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Otherwise, it will be on all popular podcast apps.
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Right then, let's crack on with tonight's episode.
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If you have joined us live, then do feel free as always to ask questions.
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If you do, I can bring it up on the screen like I'm doing so now.
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You can see if you're watching on YouTube or Facebook.
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Sir Glenn Murphy, MBE, says, good evening all. Hey, Glenn. Thank you very much for joining as always.
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I don't know whether you're going to therapy show. Let us know if you are.
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It would be lovely to see you.
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Gary Benson, founder of the STA, who I know is going along to therapy show,
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is here as well tonight, says, good evening. apologies for my tardiness.
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It's just the clientele we've got. We've got Sir and Glenn Murphy and we've
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got the word tardiness. That's in the first five minutes. Beautiful.
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Gary says, I had problems logging in. Okay. Thanks for sharing, Gary.
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Gary's going to be there as well. The STA have got a stand as always.
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We've always been there at the Therapy Expo and Therapy Show, as it's now called.
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I'm looking forward to seeing you if you're coming along this year.
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Right. Tonight's guest, let's bring up special guest for clinical conversations
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the work joe turner of mehab.co.uk and coaching unpeeled let's bring her up.
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You do hey matt good evening i'm very well thank you good to see you so relaxing
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seeing you i don't know whether you get that a lot but you just lose you just lose peace.
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Oh i don't know what it's about but you certainly do and i'm looking forward
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to catching up with you again in a month now not far away at all yeah yeah very
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exciting so how are things where are you in the world just remind people who
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don't know where you are i,
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am a little town called wooden under edge which is in Gloucestershire.
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We always describe it as clinging onto the edge of the cotswolds by its fingernails.
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It's not really a smart cotswold term, but...
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Is clinging on. Clinging on to the edge of the Cotswolds. The way you use words.
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We're going to have lots of that tonight. If you're a wordsmith,
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if you enjoy words, then this is the show for you, regardless of MSK Health
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and stuff like that. And it's going to be a beautiful experience for you,
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I guarantee it. It's very words.
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And it's completely irrelevant to the conversation. That's wonderful.
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And this is actually your fourth time on the show.
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So you've entered now, you've climbed that scale, that kind of hierarchy of
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success or whatever you want to regard it as. Yeah, your fourth time now.
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Is there a number I have to beat? Who's got the highest? I don't like to divulge
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that information. And it's not a competition, but you're up there.
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You're doing well. It's not like the stick. It's not kind of like, yeah.
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But yeah, you're there. No, it's just, I mean, really, by saying that,
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I'm saying thank you for giving up four hours of your life to come on the show.
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Amazing. You were here. Let's have a little look back. You were here in April
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in episode 280 with the wonderful Immy Tester, discussing common frustrations
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for MSK clinicians. That was part of a series we had.
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You opened that up. And then in 2025, we're traveling back now,
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you're here with Joanne Elphinstone.
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I'm in episode 223, which was coaching skills for clinicians.
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Oh, I did like this title. Secret sauce or empty bandwagon?
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You know what I mean, people? Get your pens and cards out. I'll take one of these things.
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No, I think it was you or Joanne altogether. It was beautiful. It was amazing.
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Great title. Secret sauce or empty bandwagon. And then in 2024,
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which was episode 205, it was will AI ever replace human health practitioners?
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See, we were asking that question like nearly three years ago.
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It's quite scary how I forget these things. I was listening to,
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did you ever listen to off-menu podcasts with James Acaster?
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I'm going to have to after watching Traitors. I'm definitely getting into him a lot more, so I will.
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So they have Jack Dee, who I think is even a bit older than me,
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and they were quoting early sets that he'd done and he couldn't remember any of them.
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And he said he's now writing things and suddenly he goes into this flow and
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he thinks he's really in the zone. He realizes you're just accessing an old
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memory of something that's completely forgotten. He's settled in.
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Really? Gosh, that can be really dangerous, particularly if you're doing a PhD
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or a master's or something.
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Oh, great. No, I'll look out for that one. I am joining a cast of spectacularly
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in Traitors at the moment. So yeah, I definitely want to catch up with him.
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Imi Testa, actually talking of the devil or the angel is with us as well.
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Thanks, Imi, for joining us. We were just talking about you.
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If your ears were heating up from episode 280. So yes, fourth time back. Thank you so much.
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I mean, those three episodes, the reason I listed them, they kind of show,
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it's at first, it seems like quite a diverse thing, a lot of things to be looking
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at with AI and then coaching and then frustrations, but I think it also shows,
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kind of the common theme throughout them, which is your clear passion and advocacy
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for clinician well-being.
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So for people who aren't aware of you, I thought that was a nice segue into
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introducing yourself and how and when did that passion for clinician well-being
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start? Well, I'm glad you see a theme because as I was listening to,
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I was thinking, oh my goodness.
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So thank you for finding a common denominator then. yeah when did it start I
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don't really know and it wasn't conscious it wasn't something like oh initial
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well-being is is my thing but when people ask me how I got into coaching I often,
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reflect back on my early days as a clinic owner and probably the first times
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I the first time that I started conducting one-to-ones and appraisals with people,
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and I was always struck by I didn't call it imposter syndrome then,
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I never named for it, but I was struck by how.
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All I could see in front of me was this superb person, intelligent,
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enthusiastic, well-qualified, curious, full of ideas.
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But often appraisals were just lists of things that they felt they didn't do
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well or lists of courses that they would do next so that they could become a good clinician.
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And I guess sadly not just as a clinic owner but as a clinician working alongside people,
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often I used to see people struggling a bit in obviously physiotherapy was mainly
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my my the clinicians I had contact with then so I think it was maybe a little bit of,
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frustration on behalf of other people that you know maybe somehow this system
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was doing was taking in pretty amazing people and then maybe not doing them
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a great service if the outcome was quite a lot of,
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people thinking they needed to do more or thinking they weren't enough or there
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was some kind of line that they eventually would cross and then be I don't know
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what acceptable good whatever so I suppose that's where it started,
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and then actually I really got into coaching as such in,
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during COVID and you know I really saw quite a lot of clinicians of,
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lots of different professions was struggling then and became much more.
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Sort of conversant I guess with you know what burnout actually looked like what
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led to it what overwhelm looked like imposter syndrome those kind of things and you know just,
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sort of experiencing people who are anxious and probably probably things that
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had been there before COVID but just were really put into the sharp lens at that time sharp focus.
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Yeah definitely Definitely. COVID accentuated an awful lot of fears and worries
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and problems for a lot of therapists.
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I'm interested whether, so you, first of all, you recognize the distress in
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others, which is a gift and not everybody even sees it. Some people just,
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and that's not criticizing other people, but not everybody's aware of that.
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I know that kind of like natural empathy for noticing other people.
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But did you kind of, do you feel that in terms of, we're going to be talking
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about clinical conversations that work did you kind of hear yourself or get the impression that you,
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were the sort of person who people would talk to people would open up by the
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way you were talking or was it something you had to study and practice and then
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put into practice and then realize oh this is working people are actually feeling
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valued now and they trust me and they're opening up.
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I think it is fairly natural. It isn't something I remember consciously thinking I needed to work on.
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And actually, I do remember even at school, when I was a child,
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people often were saying, oh, you know, I can tell you things,
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I feel quite comfortable with you.
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And also, I suppose, in bringing it back to the clinician well-being,
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in some ways, I think I was quite confused when I saw people struggle.
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And that sounds, I don't mean that to sound condescending, But I sort of felt,
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to me, this feels like a fairly straightforward profession.
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And yet, we seem to be making it very complex and quite difficult for people,
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and leaving them not feeling very happy and comfortable.
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And, you know, I am primarily often talking about clinician well-being.
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But I would say that actually, I think I talk about that on behalf of clinicians,
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because it has so much effect on the comfort of the person you're working with.
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And we can get more into this a bit more when we talk about coaching unpeeled, if you like.
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But I think essentially we're trying to create conditions where we can,
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we're well regulated and we can be in this lovely space of, my friend who works
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in a different sector calls it compassionate inquiry.
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We want to be in that space so that the patient gets the best experience.
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But there's a lot of work around us and our own comfort and well-being that,
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needs to be addressed in order to be able to create those conditions.
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I mean the short answer to your question is no i don't think it's something i,
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was consciously aware of having to develop but i guess having gone into this
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work i've done a bit of sort of self-reflection of that well or why you know
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what is it that someone needs from me to feel,
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safe and able to open up that's great thank you for your honesty for your answer,
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Your name came up, obviously, yesterday I was doing a workshop for Anna Maria
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Mazzieri, a little kind of 90-minute communication during the consultation thing.
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And they were a really reflective group. And it was a very biased group in the
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sense that they've been nurtured from level three with Anna Maria.
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So they were really aware already. It was such a lovely foundation of knowledge
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and expectation to work with.
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It was interesting when we started talking about how we talked about how to
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talk with your clients. And then we turned a little bit to looking after yourselves
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because the questions kind of naturally went that way.
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Because that is often a restriction. You can't look after your client if you
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are stressed, if you don't get on with him for some reason, if you're feeling
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some kind of like mismatch.
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And your name obviously came up. She's the absolute queen of looking after yourself.
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And I guided them towards, you know, sources which you've produced.
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But there was definitely lots of nods when we just kind of went over something
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so simple saying if you don't look after yourself,
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then how do you really believe you're looking after your clients so even though
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it feels like you're pulling energy and effort away from what you could be doing
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with others by looking after yourself a little bit,
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the proportion of energy you're now going to have to give to others is going to be untold more,
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and they're really going to notice it and after there's some nods of about 12 people they were like,
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you could see you know when you're talking to people they're going that makes
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so much sense why haven't i thought that before it was it's such a beautiful thing but,
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you know we've talked about this before on the show people clinicians are such
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givers aren't they they often just give give give give give and,
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measure their success on how much they can give and there is this temptation
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which i'd love to hear you put into your own words of where we don't turn the
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lens around and actually give time to ourselves,
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yeah and i think there are many different levels to this looking after yourself and I think.
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A lot of it can and should happen outside the clinic room and if you like that's,
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you know a case of finding what works for you and I wouldn't dream of sitting
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here and listing five things that people should do I think it's important that,
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people make that a very personal process but you know if people are worrying
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about self-care during with the
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idea of being a clinician if we take that directly into the clinic room.
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If you are someone who has voices in your head that worry about things like,
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you know, am I certain about the diagnosis?
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Is my patient happy? Have I done what they wanted? Are they enjoying this process?
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Am I as good as the clinician next door?
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Maybe self-care is spending some time getting to know that voice and also developing
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some strategies that settle it in the moment.
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And maybe that's a very tenuous definition of self-care, but for me,
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I guess it's self-compassion.
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Having compassion in the moment for that voice, which you know will always come,
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or if you've experienced it enough time, you suspect it will often come,
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and then just being able to have compassion for it rather than a believing it,
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c trying to have an internal fight with it.
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Which i get to see i can't remember what b was i don't know what's here,
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as opposed to you're getting to the point where almost in the moment you can
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go oh there it is okay that's fine,
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i know that voice comes but i don't need to believe it and actually in this
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moment me having all those thoughts is definitely going to detract from my attention
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to this person in front of me,
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and it's probably not going to help create those conditions that make me a safe
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human for them so almost to be a safe human I've got to take care of that little
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scared voice inside me which currently is trying to hijack the situation,
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and it might you can also you know if that feels like a bit of a ninja move,
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being able to do that in the moment.
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And I think if people want to practice it, how many people listening would identify
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with that voice that comes after you've been to a social event, perhaps, or,
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maybe you've had to present something at work, or maybe you've been in a meeting at work,
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that voice that tells you you were either too much or too little or all sorts
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of things, people will know what version of that comes into their head.
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Noticing it and then just taking a moment to go there you are yeah,
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I knew you would you'd show up at some time and here you are on my drive home
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or whatever thank you I know why you're there you're trying to keep me safe but,
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we've been through this enough times that actually maybe I just won't take too
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much notice of what you're saying this time,
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and you know if you can get that voice to just settle and pass one or two times,
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you almost don't need to go through the internal conversation with it anymore
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you're just like well there it is yeah compassion off it goes,
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Very cool. I like that. You had the voices in your head. Wonderful.
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I don't think I've ever asked you, so you said, when did you,
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when? I want to know about the Mehab, the website. I mean, that's so clever. Was that you?
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I mean, was that playing rehab to Mehab? Do you remember that happening?
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It was my daughter. I think my daughter might have actually come up with it
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and she suggested it and sniggered and I went, no, I like that.
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And she said, oh no, I didn't mean it.
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So powerful. It's beautiful because it represents you. It's the simplicity.
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I mean, And you do it time and time again when you come on the show.
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And I've seen you as an educator, you take a word and maybe tweak it or just
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choose a certain word. And it's
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just like coin drops. And I think Mehab is just such a beautiful word.
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So there's the website, people, just for listeners. Go along to mehab.co.uk.
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There's so much on there.
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But there are details also of the podcast, which is You Matter,
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which again, wonderful name for a podcast with some marvelous conversations on there.
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You might particularly like the penultimate one so far in the season,
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which is with Matt Phillips, Mindful Strides. Beautiful conversation going out.
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I don't know whether that was one of the reasons that you stopped the one after
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that or not. I don't know whether that just saw your audience plumb it. I don't know, Matt.
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But no, it's a wonderful catalogue of, again, always talking about,
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what CBD should I do? Well, do yourself a favour and go along.
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If you want to know about clinical conversation and looking after yourself and
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patients, go along and check out all of those podcasts of You Matter with Joe Turner.
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And then also, I wanted to take that on to, yeah, Coaching Unpeeled,
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where, like I said, we had you on the show.
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How is that going? Because I remember, I think we started off when you were
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about to launch it or something. It was like a, how's that been for you, that journey?
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Joanne and I have run it three times now online, and we've tweaked it.
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You're a veteran course writer. You know how it goes. You run it,
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and then you have a conversation afterwards, and some things go well,
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some things need improvements. So we've enjoyed tweaking it as we go along.
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And I think it's actually been a very enjoyable process for Joanne and I.
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So we wrote it through many, many meetups.
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Joanne lives in New Cardiff and I'm in Gloucestershire and Monmouthshire is
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a nice halfway point. We had lots of meetups in this lovely cafe and walks in Monmouthshire.
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And we really took it at a slow pace to write the thing. And it was almost like,
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you know, we didn't know when we're going to get to the end point.
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We weren't that bothered.
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We, a bit like talking to you, Matt, Joanne and I, just really like meandering
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through conversations and bouncing things, bouncing ideas around.
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And what was lovely about meeting each other is we realized that our conversations
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always produce something.
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It is definitely better than the sum of the two parts. We always produce something
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that neither of us saw coming. So if you like, we have enjoyed the process of
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creating it as much as delivering it, I think.
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But it has been delivered three times. It's been, so far, we've done the usual
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sort of format of advertising it, delivering it to whoever came along.
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But we actually would, we've had a couple of inquiries about going into organizations
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and delivering it to, within a workplace.
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And in some ways, I think that's, that would be really enjoyable.
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We both are craving doing some more in-person stuff, because for both of us, that's our preference.
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But also I think having those discussions with the people that you work with,
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knowing the client base that you work with and using them as examples,
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I think that'd be quite a powerful experience to go through that together,
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particularly because there is so much in the course about you as a clinician.
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So back to that previous conversation, yes, we are trying to,
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Joanne and I are trying to find a way to make strange terms like patient-centered
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care make sense and actually have some real value and help people have genuine
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understanding and tools around that.
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But so much of it comes back to, and in order to do that, you have got to look
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at your own state, how regulated you are.
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The course is actually based around five pillars and one of those pillars is
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anchoring and that is anchoring yourself so that you can be this sort of steady
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center point for the client,
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i've totally forgotten your question i think it was just how is coaching and peel going,
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yeah i mean you've you've yeah it was just it was about,
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i think you've answered it in the sense i'm always interested how it's affected
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you and yeah you've nailed it like I think that,
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especially a course on kind of great involves communication and self-care,
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when the tutors recognize that they're getting something out of each time and
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they're learning and all that that's just the sign of a good course rather than
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just delivering something which you think is God's word and just knocking it
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out there and everyone taking notes so that's what I was getting at.
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They're really simple concepts and you know I see,
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I see lots of people giving the same giving very similar messages which is a
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great thing I mean under different titles so under title a bit behavior change
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and just goal setting and all,
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we are all essentially saying the same in terms of you know we have got to spend time,
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trying to really work out what patients understand what matters to them,
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what's going to work in terms of their treatment and their rehab.
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And I'm glad we are all having those similar conversations.
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But I think perhaps the piece that I personally feel most wedded to because
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of all the clinician care that we talked about is that, as I keep saying,
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it is better for the patient, but it's also better for you.
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And when you are in that better state, you are going to be a better clinician.
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But I think most of the time, your working life is going to feel so much easier
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and so much more enjoyable.
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And you can slow down. I think one of the things that I really appreciated learning
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about a coaching approach, which essentially is what Coaching and Peel is introducing
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into the clinical environment, is I could take time.
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I didn't feel in a coaching session with someone, Peel coaching,
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there's none of this pressure that there is an answer that I need to arrive
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at at some point, hopefully within this session.
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My main job is to really listen deeply to keep my mind open,
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and to stay curious as to the story that's coming that's being relayed to me
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i often do an exercise with people when i'm trying to,
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when i'm trying to introduce the idea of active listening i get people to work
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in pairs and tell each other a fairy tale.
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And it brings up so many things relevant to the clinical scenario.
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So what people often realize is they hear a story and it's probably one that
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they vaguely remember from childhood.
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And the more they hear about it, they think, oh yeah, I know how this goes.
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Oh yeah, I remember that bit. And they start almost pre-empting the story.
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I know where it ends. I know how this happens. I know what the pain point is.
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I know what the solution is.
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Or they hear it and they start correcting it. All these things that actually
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come up in a clinical environment are highlighted by this fairytale exercise.
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But the point where people realise that how much power there is in just shutting
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that voice off and hearing the story for its own sake,
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and really just for the purposes of reflecting it back to the person that's
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told it exactly the way they told it, not the way you thought it should be or
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the way you thought the story went, so that they can hear it.
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You can then have a back and forth and you know is that right did I explain
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that correctly oh yes but you missed this bit or no I forgot to tell you this bit.
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It one of our young clinicians said to me the other day when I was working with him on this he said oh,
25:20
I went home I love it Jo I went home and I actually did the exercise with my
25:25
wife and he said and what I'm realizing is I'm allowed to just have normal conversations
25:30
with patients to understand better what's going on and I think So that's it in a nutshell.
25:35
We learn all this professional language and some of it's helpful.
25:40
But I think the unhelpful part of it is it takes us away from very normal,
25:44
very human conversations where we're trying to understand somebody and somebody
25:48
is trying to help us understand them.
25:52
That's wonderful. And you do encapsulate perfectly how,
25:56
when you say Christians, it just becomes without, it's not simple to do because
26:01
you have to fight a lot of like fixing reflex and writing reflex and that sort
26:05
of stuff and trying to get them on the couch or whatever or doing the exercise
26:08
as soon as possible because you know what's up with them.
26:10
So it's not simple to do, but when you manage it and you get better at it,
26:13
it does make life a lot simpler, doesn't it? Like you say, and this is where
26:16
the wellbeing comes into it.
26:18
Practicing something, which is actually looking after you.
26:22
By not taking all that responsibility. That's where that in the moment bit comes
26:25
in as well, because I think a lot of the self-control on the part of the clinician
26:30
needs to come quite early in the session, because that's when all the voices
26:33
are going, right, get them in,
26:35
get through their history, sort out quickly what's going on with them.
26:38
If in those first moments, you can just settle yourself and go,
26:43
okay, yeah, I know we need to get there, but let's just, let's stretch time
26:47
a little bit. Let's just open the daily part of this session out and both chill.
26:52
And it's amazing how you get there with much less stress, much less effort.
26:58
Just trust yourself and the patient and the patients. I'm thinking it makes
27:02
me suddenly want to see, not a study or something, but I'd love some way of
27:06
monitoring a practitioner's heart rate and that sort of stuff.
27:10
One, when they're going through this kind of more coaching-based kind of consultation
27:14
or something, as opposed to that, all right, next client's in,
27:17
right, we've got to get this. Oh, what if I don't do that? I've got to,
27:19
you know, just monitoring it.
27:20
I'm sure if you did measure whatever you're measuring, you'd see an awful lot
27:24
of difference, which would, yeah, give some nice data on the benefits. Yeah, incredible.
27:30
Anyway, wonderful. Which brings us marvelously to therapy show.
27:36
Because you're going to be presenting with Joanne there, which is going to be
27:39
wonderful. I just remember, for some reason, I remember Joanne Elphinstone had
27:43
such a, I think it was just her passion and her smile. Her smile.
27:47
In the sense that she was so into it. It was the first therapy expo,
27:50
I think. I think it was the first or second one.
27:52
So this is back 2013 or something with gems and stuff.
27:55
And I just remember seeing her with all the presentations I went to and I hadn't,
28:00
I've heard of gems, but I hadn't seen her before.
28:02
And just walking away thinking, wow, that person is so into this.
28:05
And she hasn't come along to kind of be a guru. She's come along just to show,
28:08
look, this is amazing, guys. I really want you to share some of it.
28:11
Yeah, and having some fun. Day one.
28:14
And it just had such an effect on me. Really, really did. It was just so cool
28:17
to see. And especially in that era when a lot of it was kind of guru-based.
28:21
And yeah, it was just marvellous. It had such an effect on me.
28:24
So yeah, you're going to be there. I'm definitely someone who needs to do what she does.
28:30
You know, it's not, it's driven. She can't not, I think.
28:34
And you're right. like that shows on her face and when she moves.
28:38
She loves movement, she is, she just, embodiment is such a good word for what
28:44
Joanne does. And I think she really does live and breathe as well as talk very
28:48
eloquently about the work she does.
28:51
I'm really looking forward to seeing you. I mean, I'm going to have to sort
28:55
it. I'm going to have to get my pen and paper out and sort out long ago and see.
28:59
It's getting very close. I'm sure I've doubled.
29:03
I've got to get a lot. I've got to do that. But yes, it's going to be great.
29:07
So for people who are listening, Joe Turner and Joanne Elphinstone,
29:10
who you probably know from GEMS Clinical Movement Programs, but also co-creator
29:14
of Coaching Unpeeled, are going to be at Therapy Show, formerly known as Therapy Expo,
29:20
on day one, which is Wednesday, the 25th of November, 2026.
29:24
And the conversation is going to be by no small coincidence,
29:29
clinical conversations that work.
29:31
And that's at 1110, like I say, on day one. Fantastic.
29:36
So what I'm going to do now, I think is, yeah, without giving too much of it
29:39
away, because it's funny at therapy show, I remember a few times people have
29:43
come out of there and kind of gone, all it was, was what she talked about or
29:47
what he talked about on the podcast.
29:48
I was like, oh, if that's all you got from it, then you must have missed so much of it.
29:52
But if you are listening to this now, we'll try not to give too much away.
29:55
But I mean, look at it as a little foundation. If you can go in with what we're
29:59
going to talk about now, then you can make it even more powerful and make sense during that.
30:03
But yeah, so the first thing I guess I wanted to ask is by calling it,
30:09
clinical conversations that work, I guess the first thing that comes to my brain,
30:14
the way I think is you're implying there quite heavily that there are clinical
30:17
conversations that don't work.
30:20
So without getting too negative, let's talk about some of the ones that don't
30:24
work, which are kind of rabbit holes by well-meaning clinicians, but yeah, tell me.
30:31
And by the way, I will probably have versions of these every single day.
30:37
An example for me of a clinical conversation that doesn't work is the clinician jumping in too early,
30:46
making assumptions perhaps based on very successful or theoretically successful
30:52
patient interactions in the past.
30:55
And shutting down the possibility for something really new and really helpful to that client.
31:03
I mean, say it, perhaps a client that has had a repeated injury themselves and
31:07
they think they know how this goes.
31:09
And, you know, I'll go and see the physio or the osteopath or sort of therapist
31:13
or whatever, and I'll tell them this. And then they'll probably tell me it's
31:15
that. And then they'll give me some exercises and I'll probably know what three
31:18
of them are anyway. And off we go.
31:20
As opposed to a conversation that opens the ground back up again.
31:25
Almost like you're visiting this island for the first time again.
31:28
You don't know what the terrain is.
31:31
And having a clinician who is willing to just look at things afresh with you
31:36
stay curious a bit longer before you both take that dive into the solution whatever
31:42
it's going to be so I think,
31:44
perhaps conversations that don't work are ones that,
31:47
hone in too early I use the island analogy because I've got,
31:52
a coaching mentor that I worked with a couple of years ago who had a lovely terminology for,
31:58
this early process in a clinical conversation or coaching conversation in that
32:02
context is she's saying imagine that you have just arrived at a new island you
32:06
don't know anything about it and you've got to you've got to decide to dig somewhere for treasure.
32:12
You could you could decide very early where you think that treasure is for some
32:18
reason who knows what reason you know and miss seven-eighths of the island.
32:23
You may or may not get it right, but she talks about...
32:29
Surveying the landscape for longer so you know keep going to new places and
32:33
try that oh what about this and and what happens when you go to work and and
32:37
what else is going on and tell me more about that and oh
32:41
and how do you feel about that when that happens all these are sort of,
32:45
the island metaphor really works therefore you're not sure if this is even relevant
32:49
but let's just pop over here and take a look oh right okay so that thing do
32:53
you want to talk about that a bit more.
32:55
So she talks about deciding when to go deep or when to go vertical,
33:00
but otherwise deciding to stay horizontal longer.
33:03
I've thrown in way too many metals there, but.
33:06
No, that's great. I like that. Where does it go vertical or whether to stay
33:09
horizontal? It's the nicest way of putting it.
33:12
In how long, you know, have I really, the conversation that doesn't work,
33:16
I think, is one that thinks it's gone very quickly to a solution,
33:19
but in actual fact, has probably just shut down a lot of possibilities.
33:24
I'm always interested in my quest to help clinicians not,
33:31
feel challenged by these ideas to kind of preempt or think why they do things
33:36
like that and to make it clear that we're not telling clinicians or listeners
33:40
off because clinicians have probably thought, yeah, but I haven't got time to
33:42
do that or blah, blah, blah.
33:44
What do you think are some of the reasons that well-meaning clinicians fall
33:48
into that trap? Why do they start digging straight away, do you think,
33:51
rather than looking at the island for a little bit longer?
33:54
The reason you just said is going on in the mind. I need to get to a solution
33:58
quickly so I can get on with the treatment, get on with the rehab.
34:03
And I'm sure even I can hear the counter to that straightaway as I'm saying
34:09
it. Well, what's the point in getting on quickly with the thing that potentially
34:12
is the wrong thing or not the most effective thing?
34:15
But I'm sure there is a sense of urgency.
34:18
I think there's also, I don't know about your profession, Matt,
34:21
But I think there's a little bit of, oh, gosh, all that clinician does is just
34:26
talk. You don't get on with it.
34:28
It being, I don't know, an exercise or a treatment or whatever.
34:34
You know, I think sometimes it just perhaps talking isn't given as much value
34:40
as doing. Okay, definitely.
34:43
Do you think that's a preoccupation from the therapist's point of view,
34:46
something they worry about, whereas if they actually ask the member of public
34:51
or the individual in front of them, they'd be surprised that the individual
34:54
actually wants to be given the chance to talk?
34:57
I think very much. And actually, that's another great example of just ask them.
35:02
You know, if you find that you've been talking for 15 minutes,
35:06
but you still feel there's some rich information, why not just say something very human like,
35:11
you know look this feels like a really helpful conversation is it okay and does
35:15
it feel helpful to you if we carry on with this on the understanding that you
35:18
know maybe i won't even get you on the couch today or maybe we won't do any
35:22
treatment or exercise is that okay,
35:25
and as you say nine times out of ten in fact i can't remember anyone ever saying
35:30
no let's stop talking now and just get your thumbs in my piriformis um.
35:35
Asking permission is so i mean i'm so susceptible to hearing this And I don't
35:41
know, I managed to put myself in that split second in the shoes of a patient.
35:46
And somebody saying that to me is just so, it's such a great way of building
35:51
that trust, that therapeutic alliance, which we're talking about,
35:54
just by asking someone permission.
35:56
But we don't do it, same as we don't give affirmations, we don't praise patients
36:00
for when they've done something well, we kind of feel a bit cringy.
36:03
But I think it is, although I said nothing's that simple and putting something
36:08
like that in, the first time you go it.
36:10
That you ask permission, it's okay if we do this, or I think it might feel awkward.
36:14
But then when you see the response from the patient and their eyes kind of go,
36:17
no one's ever put it like that before. And they wouldn't say that, but you sense it.
36:20
It's magnificent, isn't it? It can change everything.
36:23
That is what creates safety. And I know you wanted to talk about neurodivergence
36:32
a bit later. And I think those kind of.
36:36
Check-ins are very important in that context. But actually, I think they're
36:40
really important for everybody. Like you said, just to have someone go,
36:43
oh, I don't want to make an assumption here. Is this okay?
36:46
Or would you like something different? It just doesn't happen,
36:49
but it is just a normal thing.
36:51
I often say to people when I'm
36:53
teaching this stuff, if you were with your best friend and you thought,
36:57
I don't know, they're a bit knocked off with you or something,
37:00
or you'd gone out for a day and they weren't really enjoying it,
37:03
you'd say something like,
37:05
is this okay is this what you expected should we do something different is this
37:09
is this all right but we don't do that with clients do we we don't just ask
37:13
that very normal question that gives us,
37:16
gives us the ability to either go yes this is fine we're going the right way
37:20
let's carry on or no this actually isn't quite right let's change direction and try something else.
37:26
I think you just nailed it and it's so lovely talking to you because it's it's,
37:32
it's the whole power dynamic, isn't it?
37:33
And it's because we're set up, I think, so often whether you're a sports therapist,
37:37
physiotherapist, even probably GPs, I'm not talking, I mean,
37:40
I've no experience in that, but I think in healthcare,
37:43
so much of training is setting you up as the person who's higher than the patient
37:48
and, you know, fixing and operating on whatever.
37:52
And I think that's one of the problems, isn't it? We don't feel professional
37:55
if we just check in with the person, ask their permission or commend them on something that I'm well.
38:00
People might worry a bit about well you know I've learned all this stuff I what
38:05
about my expertise and I'm sure I've quoted Jan on your podcast before this
38:10
is my favorite thing that Jan's ever said in this,
38:12
sort of sphere she says this coaching approach is not withholding your expertise
38:18
it's just knowing the exact point to land it,
38:21
And what she means is wait, you know, because there will be a moment where this
38:25
particular bit of information that you have is an absolute no-brainer.
38:30
It's the thing that will get them unstuck so you can move on again.
38:34
But you don't carpet bomb people with lots of bits of information as early as,
38:40
well, we do actually. It's quite a common thing for clinicians to do, I think.
38:43
But it's much more helpful to wait, understand what somebody already knows,
38:48
and then to see where they're stuck.
38:51
And then it's just like, oh, of course, that piece of knowledge,
38:54
that's where it needs to land. It's now this is when it's useful.
38:59
Very cool. And just imagining it through my head, it does make things more relaxing
39:03
because suddenly you're not, I mean,
39:07
I'd be lying if I said that whilst you're actively listening to the patient
39:10
and giving them a chance to unpeel and take the layers off, you're not thinking
39:14
of anything because you are thinking about what am I going to hand back to them?
39:17
What's the next question going to be? Where do I think this is going?
39:19
There's an awful lot going on.
39:21
And that's why you guys should be charging more money than you probably are.
39:24
That's where this real skill is. That's where you're going to need to practice
39:27
and develop and where you can really give the patient what they need.
39:30
But it does sound so much more relaxing, doesn't it?
39:33
Just having that freedom of just, like in MI terms, walking with them or dancing
39:38
with them and not just pushing or pulling. It's not that struggle.
39:40
It's not a wrestle, is it? That sort of stuff. And that's straight away I'm
39:43
hoping listeners can understand, well, that sounds much more relaxing than my day normally is.
39:48
I think it's all very well for you and I to sit here and talk. It's true.
39:54
I think, and you were right in what you said earlier, actually,
39:56
that these are simple concepts, but it doesn't mean that there isn't skill involved.
40:01
And I don't want people to think, oh, this is something terribly clever that's
40:06
going to be, you know, I need some kind of secret sauce to be able to do it
40:09
or Joe's a guru or whatever.
40:11
There's nothing magical about it, but it does take practice and you need to actually do it.
40:17
You need to practice words coming out of your mouth or words not coming out
40:22
of your mouth and seeing the effect that has in your clinical environments and
40:27
what effect it has on the way you feel as a clinician,
40:30
what effect it has on the information you get back from your clients.
40:34
It's not really so much a theoretical process. The theory is very simple,
40:39
but I think putting it into practice takes a little bit of time and patience with yourself.
40:45
Definitely very much so. We've got some comments coming in, which is great.
40:48
Don't forget, people, if you are listening, then feel free to leave a comment.
40:51
We've got a comment here, which I'll bring up on the screen for people who are
40:54
joining us live from the one and only David Clark Poulter, who's been releasing
41:00
some fantastic infograms.
41:01
He's really got his, talking of AI, David has been producing some wonderful,
41:07
infograms with his unique sense of humor put in there. But David,
41:10
thanks for joining us. David says, I'll read it out for people,
41:13
listen to the podcast. David says, great discussion.
41:15
This is why I propose the shift from taking to receiving a person's history.
41:20
Receiving means to listen rather than a king, which suggests you're just getting
41:24
information from someone in a predetermined fashion.
41:27
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, you are there in service, aren't you?
41:32
And the service you're offering is listening, hearing, receiving.
41:36
As David says, receiving is a really good word actually.
41:40
Very nice, David. Thank you for adding that.
41:44
Very cool. So I just want to think of another question to hear you more.
41:49
Actually, you know what? When I've got someone like you, I'm not thinking of
41:52
the next question because I'm just pinned on every single word you say.
41:55
Where are you going? So that's not what a podcast host is supposed to be.
42:01
I was totally relaxing, but I should have been thinking what's next.
42:04
You make me not so professional, Jo. Stop it. Excellent. Good.
42:08
Next question I've got on my list here, please.
42:11
She phased me phased me let's bring it back so it says in the session description
42:19
on therapy show website which i'm going to go back to because it's bringing on there,
42:23
it says that the session is going to be interactive which i always love to see
42:28
i think over the years that's one of the things which on the panel on the on
42:32
the kind of advisory boards and education committees we've kind of said a lot of people need some,
42:38
participation in these while they're just being lecture after lecture after lecture.
42:41
So what have you, again, not without giving too much away, but how is this going
42:44
to be an interactive session?
42:48
Really, what I've just said, we want people to experience hearing words,
42:52
words coming out of their mouth. And actually, it's, it's.
42:57
It's not like being in a clinical room, is it? We can't totally recreate the
43:00
actual experience, but we want people to not just listen to us,
43:05
theorize about a conversation. We want people to have conversations.
43:09
And, you know, a lot of this is getting comfortable with discomfort,
43:13
both yours and your patients. And, you know, I think Joanne and I are both fairly
43:17
safe people and we're backing ourselves that we can do this without completely freaking people out.
43:23
So if you are thinking of coming along, don't worry. it doesn't mean you have to get up on stage and.
43:28
You know do a dance or anything it's it's gentle interaction with other people
43:32
next to you and we will guide you and we'll be there and we'll end up looking
43:35
a lot more silly than you i'm sure great that's it that's got people queuing
43:40
up now for that we'd love to see that,
43:42
yeah amazing are you going to be around this is all on day one just in case
43:47
you've just joined us now fast forwarded we're talking about 11 10 a.m on wednesday
43:50
the 25th of November in the Clinical Skills Lab Theatre.
43:54
Are you managing to stay around for day two? I am. Yes, I am going to take my time.
43:59
Sorry, I don't need to rush away. Yeah, I'm going to enjoy the experience.
44:04
Well, I hope I'm going to enjoy the experience.
44:06
That's good. That's a good segue. I'm glad you said that because I know we caught
44:09
up in 2024 there and we had some fantastic chats.
44:13
And I think I remember going back probably to Anna Maria's, what are they called
44:17
airbnbs i think that's the kids these days and yeah it's a good chance but i remember,
44:22
talking about how in many respects kind of big shows like this aren't your cup
44:27
of tea if you like sometimes i haven't always been for some reason actually.
44:33
Therapy, so it was called Therapy Expo, wasn't it? For me, it's always felt
44:38
quite an adrenalized environment, not quite extremely adrenalized environment.
44:44
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy that for a very limited period of time.
44:50
But I often find it quite hard to regulate myself, actually, in that environment.
44:57
And it's great energy. People are really happy to see each other.
45:01
And often you're meeting people that you've only seen online or just spoken
45:05
to on the phone before and it's really exciting.
45:09
But I don't know, without going too deep on it, I think for me sometimes it's
45:15
the physical environment of these things.
45:17
So I understand they have to be
45:19
held in certain types of buildings because practically that makes sense.
45:25
But for me, being inside for that length of time in a fairly unnatural environment,
45:34
gets me more stressed and not.
45:39
Having access to being outside and also not having quiet areas to escape to.
45:45
I used to love it, actually, and I could probably just keep riding the adrenaline
45:49
wave for 48 hours when I was younger. So it might just be an age thing.
45:53
But increasingly, I just find it all a bit much. Does that make sense?
45:58
Yeah, that's a great way of putting it.
46:00
And I think that's the experience for an awful lot of people.
46:02
And that's why, like this year, we were chatting a bit off air that,
46:06
myself and two or three, a couple of the moderators from the Facebook group,
46:13
Neurodiversion Practitioners in Health and Care, are going to be,
46:17
well, we've been working to try and make,
46:20
somehow a 4,000 to 5,000 delicate,
46:24
conference over two days, a little bit more neuro-friendly kind of thing, which I know.
46:30
Is not going to be too easy. But we have, for example, based on what you said,
46:34
there is a well signposted, thoughtful, quiet room, for example,
46:37
which isn't in the actual therapy convention itself.
46:41
It's slightly on the outside because it just made sense to have it there because
46:44
you weren't going to get the peace and quiet inside the actual, on the floor.
46:48
But it's going to be bigger and it's going to be chilled out and it's taking
46:51
into account maybe sensory inputs like light and noise and being able to sit
46:57
down and cushions and things like that.
46:59
So that's definitely, well, I say that, that's been promised to me this year.
47:03
And we're going to have myself and a couple of other people are going to be there,
47:08
to provide a presence for if people have got a question, if they're feeling
47:11
a little bit kind of overwhelmed and we'll be walking around with wonderful,
47:15
I think, I've still got to get the proof sent to me, but purple t-shirts with
47:19
sunflowers on them with can we help you or something.
47:22
So there'll be us wandering around in case somebody is feeling a little bit,
47:25
need some help and be guided somewhere to kind of, like you say, regulate a bit.
47:30
Also, other things that are happening. We've got much easier supply now of either
47:34
ear defenders or headphones in the actual theatres.
47:39
We've got wider gaps in the theatres for people who will appreciate that extra accessibility.
47:46
And there's a few other things. And plus, we've got stuff going on just to raise
47:49
awareness to normalise it. I think that's the big thing as well, just so people...
47:54
Because that's the thing, isn't it? You go to a conference like that,
47:55
and I don't know about you, but one of the things that adds to the stress is
48:01
and i've had this all my life every time i went to any party or anything is
48:03
everybody else is enjoying this so much and no one else is suffering like me
48:06
what's wrong with me why is it that my head's going crazy and i feel like i
48:09
just want to run away from this and everyone else is smiling and he starts like
48:12
some weird film where people are spinning around laughing and,
48:15
you know joking as if everyone's been invited and you haven't been and there
48:18
we go and that's you know that's an experience that i've felt and feel and,
48:24
i know other people do so this year if you are there and you're feeling like
48:28
that then find one of us or head over to the sta,
48:31
stand and you'll find one of us there and and we'll either take you out to the
48:35
quiet room or have a little chat or we'll just basically say mate you're not
48:38
alone which is sometimes what you want to hear,
48:41
you know that the worries and preoccupations you know you're not alone at all it's fine it's.
48:46
Great as you say it's it's hard in that environment to to do lots but It's really good to hear that.
48:53
At least it's being acknowledged and you're trying.
48:57
Exactly. I mean, that's what's all about it. But I see that you are also now,
49:02
as if you didn't have enough on your LinkedIn profile, but also you are a new
49:05
diversity coach as well now?
49:07
Yeah, I've just done that training this year.
49:12
It's something I've thought about for a number of years, and I chatted to my
49:16
coaching supervisor about whether or not to do this.
49:19
And actually, she dissuaded me last year. So the reason I thought perhaps I
49:24
should do it is for whatever reason,
49:26
and I probably have some greater insights into the students now, but I was finding that,
49:31
I would say, I didn't measure it, but I would say 80% plus of the clinicians
49:36
that were coming to me for coaching either had a neurodivergent diagnosis or identified as such.
49:44
And I was probably going through a bit of a fraud, imposter syndrome,
49:49
thinking, you know, I'm coaching them, but I don't know beyond the basics.
49:59
What the definitions of their diagnosis are. If they are, I'll tell you what it was.
50:05
If I'm helping them, I don't really understand why.
50:08
Why specifically neurodivergent people and my supervisor probably very wisely
50:13
said well why does that matter you know if if you just are finding that people
50:17
are benefiting from working with you and then you're a divergent who cares why
50:21
do you need another qualification,
50:24
but I got to the point where I couldn't I needed to scratch that itch so I did
50:28
this course with Optimus Academy and I really enjoyed it and actually,
50:32
it probably as much as anything it probably did settle my credibility worries
50:37
a bit, you know, I do understand a lot more about the, not just the main two,
50:41
the ADHD and autism, but all the other, you know, divergent diagnoses as well.
50:46
But it also, as so often when you do these things, it just...
50:51
It gave some credence as to why the things that I found were working do work
50:57
and a bit more insight, I guess, into when to bring in certain tools and processes.
51:04
But I think probably when the main thing I learned is even more to open things up.
51:09
Like even the coaching rules, relax those if you're with someone who is neurodivergent.
51:14
One of the biggest rules in coaching is stick with big open questions.
51:19
For some neurodivergent people those are a complete nightmare and they need
51:24
you know for them that's like just being thrown out into a being told to travel
51:29
from here to london with absolutely no directions at all,
51:32
and they you can still keep things open and still stay curious and keep them
51:37
driving a session without it having to be like completely open,
51:41
and being super flexible and open-minded as to what happens in a session or a series of sessions,
51:48
so yes I have got that qualification now,
51:52
will it change dramatically what I do I hope not because you know it did seem
51:57
to be working but I think probably that's another process of me settling and
52:01
anchoring myself when I'm working with neurodivergent people.
52:05
That's really interesting. I picked up on how it's not necessarily going to
52:11
change what you're doing, but you realize now by why a lot of your stuff might
52:16
work with certain people.
52:18
It gives like a mechanism of action, which is always very nice, isn't it?
52:22
But I think it makes me kind of realize that,
52:26
and I've said this a lot when we're kind of talking um with about neurodiversity
52:31
and neurodivergence but if if you do tailor your delivery as a clinician to incorporate,
52:39
things for neurodivergent people then everyone's going to benefit because all
52:44
you're doing is ticking i don't want to say tick the boxes that you you,
52:49
you're keeping your eyes open you're just treating your patients like individuals
52:53
you really are you're asking the right questions you're realizing this person
52:56
might not think the same as me they might not be experiencing seeing the world the same as me.
53:00
And therefore, I need to ask them because I know nothing about them.
53:02
I know absolutely nothing.
53:03
I really don't know anything right now. I can't presume anything.
53:06
And that just, it does exactly what your whole philosophy and your coaching
53:10
approach is about, isn't it?
53:11
Because you are meaning and understanding. So it's flippant, isn't it?
53:15
But if you take it that way and go, okay, so let's have really loud noises in
53:20
our clinic and really overstimulating lighting.
53:22
And let's not waste too much time listening to people. And we'll treat everyone
53:25
the same way we'll all follow this protocol that'll work.
53:28
It just really you think well you know as you say a neurodivergent approach
53:34
how can any of that possibly be detrimental to anybody this is the thing this is the thing.
53:40
I've tried not to, because I'm doing the MA in inclusion, but I've got like
53:44
an 11-year-old and a 9-year-old now, and I can't help it, but I want to make
53:47
them aware and inclusive.
53:51
Even at this age, I think it's useful to plant seeds, because at the moment,
53:54
at that age, they're still very inclusive, and they don't really notice the
53:56
color of skin, and they don't kind of question or snarl at disability.
54:01
They just see and think, well, there's a variety. I haven't seen that before.
54:04
And they just move on, which is the way it should be. It's only later on when
54:06
you get peer pressure and stuff, or you start growing up and start looking to
54:11
put blame on people. But we were walking along today, and one member of my extended
54:15
family is in a mobility scooter.
54:18
And we were looking to cross the road. And in my mind, I've got this,
54:21
do I tell them about this? Or is it most of my wife can look at me and go,
54:24
oh, Matt, just stop teaching your children things. Just enjoy the day,
54:27
and let's go and have a coffee. But I just got into this.
54:29
So I think it's a really good example of what we're talking about.
54:33
And I just said to them, you see that dropped curve? And they went,
54:36
what's the dropped curve? I said, that little thing there where we're going
54:37
to push your nan over. If that dropped curve wasn't there and your nan was by
54:41
herself, how would she cross the road? Well, she couldn't.
54:43
If she was in a wheelchair or something, they just have to wait and someone would have to push her.
54:47
So we were talking about how it was in the 60s, a guy called Selwyn Goldsmith,
54:51
was working for disability advocacy and literally invented the dropped curve.
54:56
And it was like a revelation because suddenly people in wheelchairs could go
55:00
out by themselves and actually travel, as opposed to waiting for someone to
55:03
lift them up on the curb and put them down.
55:05
And it was an absolute revolution for disability awareness and giving agency back to people who...
55:11
Didn't fit the majority type of being able to walk and step down on curbs.
55:14
But the interesting thing that came from it was all the people who benefited
55:17
as well, like mothers in pushchairs, example, or people who aren't that,
55:21
not in wheelchairs, but they aren't that stable on their footing or something.
55:24
And it was just a really nice example of how often when you make an adjustment
55:28
to help a minority, so many more people benefit from it than you expected.
55:34
And I think that kind of is a nice physical example of what we're talking about here.
55:38
When you do make adjustments and you start thinking i'm gonna ask my person
55:41
are they okay with getting here today are they okay traveling around from london
55:44
do they need an extra help is there anything i can do to make your journey a little bit,
55:48
easier and that's just an open-ended question rather than saying are you autistic
55:52
or are you adhd of any chance is there anything i need to do you know which
55:55
you don't need to it's just is there anything i can do to help you and they
55:58
might say no that's fine but thanks for asking or they might say
56:00
if i used to say that i've really got absolutely i get quite stressful when
56:04
i'm traveling on the tube and i don't know would you be able to send me the
56:06
details of how I get there.
56:07
Yeah, of course I can do that. No problem, too. Boom. You know,
56:10
and you're helping everybody. So I'm not... Thank you for taking that.
56:15
Deliberately not saying the diagnosis or making reference to it,
56:18
I increasingly think he is helpful.
56:20
You know, as opposed to, oh, because of your ADHD, I presume you don't write this or whatever.
56:25
But just saying, oh, how do you like to receive information?
56:30
Is your exercises, or how do you learn best?
56:33
Because everyone has different ways and I want to make sure that we do it the
56:37
way that's easiest for you.
56:39
And it's almost unnecessary and probably slightly detrimental to say the diagnosis, isn't it?
56:46
Without a doubt. And it really helps because there you're just embracing natural human variety.
56:53
The same as like biodiversity. You're just celebrating neurodiversity and opening that open question.
57:00
We had a discussion on the course and I was very nervous about bringing it up.
57:03
But the more slides that came up about, you know, with lists of traits of different
57:10
neurodivergent diagnoses, you know, I was going through them thinking,
57:14
well, God, you know, I took seven out of eight on most of these slides.
57:17
And I thought, I've got to ask it. You know, I'm always being told that you
57:22
shouldn't say everyone's on the spectrum.
57:24
And I do get that. And I totally understand the diminishment of people whose
57:30
lives are seriously affected by these traits.
57:35
I do start to think, you know, where are the neurotypicals? Where are the people that know these things?
57:44
And if that is true, are we not all somewhere along, you don't have to call
57:48
it a spectrum, but isn't this just a range of human behavior?
57:52
As you say, that people have a lot more of one bit and less of another.
57:57
I mean, please correct me if
57:58
that is, because you are much more knowledgeable in this sphere than me.
58:01
Is that a really insulting thing to say?
58:04
No I don't think at all well it depends who you're talking to I think some people
58:08
feel that if you suggest it's natural variety then you are somehow diminishing
58:13
the suffering that they're going through
58:14
and the hardships they face and you're kind of just saying well it's just natural
58:18
you're just a bit different everyone else or everyone I mean it is everyone's
58:21
on the spectrum thinking really wind some people up because,
58:25
but so it depends who you're talking to but I think it's really healthy because,
58:30
you start realizing that.
58:33
Just looking at how it's 9.05, I could go on for an hour of this,
58:35
but you start realizing, I think as soon as you start realizing that someone's hardship.
58:41
Is not so much to do with an impairment or a defect they've got,
58:46
it's more to do with the environment that they're in.
58:51
And you start realizing that a lot of people suffering, not always,
58:54
people do have impairments, and especially if someone's in your divergence and
58:57
they've got a learning disability, which we need to keep quite separate you
59:01
know and it explains why some people for example who are autistic,
59:04
seem to be they used to call like high functioning and low functioning when
59:08
really now they understand they're autistic which is one thing and they've also
59:11
got a learning disability or two learning disabilities or whatever it is and
59:15
trauma and everything else so,
59:17
the way that what i'm going to be talking about at therapy show is is that we
59:21
need to look at the room the person's in rather than looking at the person and
59:26
that's where we help people it's not labeling them or categorizing them it's understanding that.
59:32
Since the industrial revolution since you know since we started lighting up
59:37
rooms with light instead of relying on natural sunlight,
59:40
society not in all countries but a lot of the time it's just constructed for
59:44
the majority of people and 80 percent of the population do handle a bright light
59:49
or lots of noise or lots of conversations and
59:52
and sudden shocks and unpredictability and all that sort of stuff and it doesn't
59:55
really bother them it's fine they might suddenly go oh what's that and then they get on with the day,
1:00:00
but for 20 depending on the research you look at that socially constructed environment
1:00:06
doesn't work for them some more than others so that's the way in a short answer i can give is i i i.
1:00:14
Have i'm really not that much of a fan of the i don't think the diagnoses and
1:00:19
stuff and the fact they keep splitting things up and increasing it and deciding
1:00:22
oh this is not that and that's that and,
1:00:24
it just shows that we need to turn the lens around more at the socially politically
1:00:28
constructed environment we put people in it's the reaction to that rather than
1:00:31
oh these people have got that,
1:00:33
impairment and defect and stuff so,
1:00:36
sorry that was really off topic but i think bringing it back to clinical conversations
1:00:40
the work it's the same thing isn't it you need to realize that if somebody is
1:00:44
not reacting well to your type for what you're saying to them,
1:00:47
the way you're treating them,
1:00:48
realize that it might not be because they've got a defect.
1:00:52
It's not because they're just not getting this. This person's really stubborn
1:00:55
or this person is, oh, they're so anxious and stressed. What am I going to do about them?
1:00:58
Start thinking about what could I change in the environment and the context?
1:01:02
What can I do? What can I change here? There's a mismatch going on.
1:01:05
And I think that's really healthy for clinicians to do. And you learn that,
1:01:10
I think, when you start looking at how to work with neurodivergent populations.
1:01:14
It really helps your conversations, I guess.
1:01:17
I mean, but then you're doing this all already, which is the beauty of it.
1:01:20
You know, that's what you do, isn't it? Treat the individual. Ask them.
1:01:25
Yeah, ask them and ask them to tell me more.
1:01:28
Tell me more if are three of the most useful words to use in our sickleination. Yeah, without a doubt.
1:01:35
Wow, that got really deep. Hey, good one. Fantastic.
1:01:40
So, I can't wait to see you in four weeks' time. It's going to be great.
1:01:43
I'm going to have to try and show you with other people, but I will be...
1:01:46
I'll see you in the fire room. Oh, yeah.
1:01:49
Fighting all the in. It's going to be great. And I'm so glad you're sticking around with day two.
1:01:53
So, right, look, people, I know it's 9.08, so I don't want to keep Joe for any longer than I said.
1:01:58
Thank you so much, everybody, who did join us live. Just to reiterate again,
1:02:02
if you're not going to therapy show, I'm really conscious of this,
1:02:05
then don't start getting what's the kids call it fomo fomo fomo uh,
1:02:09
don't worry about it you know it's fine luckily you've got the sta collision
1:02:13
podcast and you can catch up the speakers we'll do some few follow-ups after
1:02:16
therapy shown so don't start missing thinking oh my god i'm missing out on it
1:02:20
but that said i would encourage you maybe,
1:02:24
if they are offering 47 pound tickets on the day for next year just get it,
1:02:29
you know get it on the day don't wait because now it's like 250 quid or something
1:02:33
you know but they really do one of the ways we've really tried to make it inclusive is is,
1:02:39
offer just a cheapest chip stick it on the day for next year you know and if
1:02:43
something comes along then sell it or something but just do it i mean you don't
1:02:47
have to do it think about what you want but,
1:02:49
don't come to me crying later on if you didn't take advantage of it because it is such a good deal,
1:02:53
for 47 pounds but anyway oops there we go right.
1:02:58
Yeah, but like I say, if you are going along to the Therapy Show,
1:03:00
then yes, 11.10am on day one.
1:03:02
Clinical Skills Lab Theatre, the wonderful Joe Turner and Joanne Elphinstone.
1:03:08
I'm talking about clinical conversations that work. Next week,
1:03:11
I'm going to be joined by Andrew Jackson. Angie Jackson. Andrew Jackson.
1:03:15
Youth athlete, consultant, physiotherapist at Kids Back to Sports.
1:03:19
Been on the show a number of times. Fantastic education speaker.
1:03:22
Also going to be speaking at Therapy Show with a presentation entitled Managing
1:03:25
Low Back Pain in Youth Athletes.
1:03:28
Load development and decisions until then just once again thank you so much
1:03:32
to my special guest joe turner thank you joe and everybody else as always take
1:03:37
care of yourselves and find some time to take care of each other we'll see you very soon bye bye.