Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / J. Warner Wallace: True Crime Stories, Human Nature, And Life Lessons

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J. Warner Wallace: True Crime Stories, Human Nature, And Life Lessons · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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defending biblical Christianity.
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No topic off limits.
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And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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Hey, friends, thanks so much for tuning in.
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You're going to be blessed today by our guest, Jay Warner Wallace, and can't wait to get
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into his brand new book, The Truth in True Crime.
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I've spoken to him several times before on different books.
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And this is another good one.
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Well, J. Warner Wallace is a date line featured cold case, homicide,
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detective, and popular national speaker, best-selling author,
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relying on more than two decades of investigative experience.
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He provides the tools needed to investigate the claims of Christianity
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and make a convincing case for the truth of the biblical world view.
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And he's an amazing apologist and author and provides amazing resources
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on his main website.
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And that is coldcasechristianity.com.
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It's got a page there for his books and so many other resources also
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for kids, books for kids.
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So check those out as well.
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And the brand new book, as we mentioned at the very beginning,
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can't wait to get into this.
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It is called The Truth in True Crime.
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J. Warner Wallace, good to see you, brother.
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Welcome to World View Matters.
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Well, thanks so much for having me.
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I've been looking forward to this interview.
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We've done this before.
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So this isn't our first rodeo.
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So I'm glad to talk to you again.
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Yeah. Well, Lord, we can do this every time.
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You pump out another book.
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Great book.
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So to set this up, we've talked about your books in the past.
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God's crime scene.
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You examined the evidence for a divinely created universe.
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And then coldcasechristianity, you really
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talked about the importance of the gospel investigating
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the claims of the gospels and personal interest.
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Your book previous to this a couple of years ago,
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why Jesus still matters in a world that rejects the Bible.
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Now, what made you go this direction?
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Now, you're relying on a lot of your investigative work
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as a detective and the truth in true crime.
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Give us an overall, an overview of it.
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Yeah. It's a slight variation for us.
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And I think it's because now in my 60s,
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and this is probably the book that you would write in your 60s.
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Look, I think that when I was a younger man at 35,
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never really had investigated Christianity
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before, wasn't raised in the church.
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So my way in was, hey, would these gospels pass the test
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if I was to test them as eyewitness accounts?
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And that's how I ended up engaging the claims of the gospels
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to begin with.
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It was simply taking an investigative approach.
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And I think for people in my generation,
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that whether it's true matters,
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I wanted to know is Christianity true.
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But I think that really we're in a generation right now
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that probably has shifted a little bit.
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And probably as much as anything else,
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it's not so much does Christianity, is it true?
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That's important.
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But I think there's a bigger claim now.
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And here it is, is Christianity good?
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And I think that for a lot of younger people,
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and I'm on faculty at Summit Ministries
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in Colorado's, in Manatee Springs, Colorado,
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and we're doing, we're engaging high schoolers.
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And a lot of young people have been convinced
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that Christianity is the source of everything that's bad in culture.
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Yep.
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It's the source of everyism, racism,
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misogyny, homophobia, whatever the obia or ism is
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that you despise.
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Now they're looking at us and saying,
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well, this is your Judeo-Christian worldview
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that's still causing this.
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So I think for a lot of young people,
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I wanted to start writing books that talk about
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and for all of us, if that is Christianity good.
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And so what this book does is it's just simply
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15 crime stories from my case work.
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15 rules for life that you learn investigating death.
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And those act then as 50, because I'll show you in the book
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how all of these principles of human flourishing
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have been studied by sociologists and researchers.
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They have been really, they've confirmed all of this.
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And every one of them is ancient.
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These are ancient principles on the pages of the New Testament.
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And if you read your Bible, you'd already know all this stuff.
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As a matter of fact, I tell people all the time that
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I hope this book helps you see this,
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is that even if you don't think Christianity is true,
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you'd be wise to live as though it is.
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Because it turns out that these things that we're walking away from,
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these principles about how we are designed,
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how we should identify ourselves, the role of marriage in our lives.
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These are things that we can walk away from,
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but we do so at our own peril.
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And so this book, I hope, will bring back 15 attributes of human
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15 rules for life that if you would simply embrace these,
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you would flourish because you'd actually be following the instructions of the designer.
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It's interesting going back to your conversion, your development,
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as a researcher, as just seeking the truth,
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evidence seems like a pretty big word.
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And it reminds me of Lee Strobel in his journey,
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when he was seeking the truth and trying to find the evidence,
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and trying to disprove Christianity.
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And reminds me of Dr. Luke, what he said.
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And I think it was early in the book of Acts,
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where he, those three big words, many convincing proofs.
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There's so much evidence.
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Yeah, okay.
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Evidence has one author years ago wrote evidence that demands a verdict, right?
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Right.
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So by the way, I want to mention your book is currently number one new release on Amazon
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in apologetics and Christian theology five star reviews.
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So Kudos, brother, people are loving it.
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So I didn't even, I didn't even, I haven't, you know, I try not, I've learned
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this is one of the principles in the chapters of the book.
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Is the number one you don't ever want.
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I mean, humility is a huge thing.
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And it's a principle of human flourishing.
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We often take for granted.
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And it's something that I just have learned
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that to keep your eyes off that stuff.
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But I'll tell you this, what's important, I think.
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And this is, this is a weird book.
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And I knew that to make this transition from a kind of a strict Christian
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apologetics realm into something that's really kind of more like,
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well, how do we live this out?
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I think this is an important transition, though.
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Because most of the time, and you know this as well,
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is that once we make these kinds of connections like you and I have
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on a relational level, well, we're going to call each other occasionally.
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Or we're going to, maybe you'll message me or you'll email me.
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And this happens with all of my friends and both who are theologians and
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apologists and Christian case makers and speakers.
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But they're not calling me typically to talk about the things that we talk
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about on the stage.
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Like what is the evidence for reliability of the scriptures?
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That's not what they're calling me.
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But they're calling me because something that is happening
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in their lives that they're going, I'm not quite sure what to make of this guy.
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Like what do you think, Jim?
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And what they're really saying is, what does your experience as a detective tell you?
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Should I be concerned that maybe there's a domino that's that's been pushed
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over here that's going to lead to a domino that it could be scary?
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Like they want to know this practical step.
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But I'll tell you, I honestly think that most of our conversations about the gospel,
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even as a Christian apologist, probably aren't going to begin with somebody thinking,
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I've been thinking deeply about the teleological argument for God's existence.
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No, instead, it's probably going to start with, I just had a gut punch.
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This thing just happened in my life that I am reeling from.
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And I'm not quite even sure how to assess it.
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And they just want to talk about life.
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So it turns out these principles for human flourishing are probably the entry points to
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discussions about the gospel and always have been.
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So can we, as thinkers, as Christians,
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can we leverage those points of entry?
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And do we have anything to say about them?
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Do we even know what are the resources that our Christian worldview offers
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when it comes to things like suffering and identity and all the topics that are in this book?
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And so that's why that was time for me to kind of just write on, get on paper,
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the stuff that most people would call me for anyway.
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They're not calling me about the other stuff.
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So I wanted to finally write a book about it.
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Yeah, I mean, apologetics is important as it is and the gospel and the research and everything else.
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We have daily relationships and lives and in Christ and this world is hard.
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It's really hard in that days with more coming against us.
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It turns out to be the one thing if you think about that we share in common.
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I mean, I've all the people we know that one thing we have in common,
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every people group is that we're all going to experience suffering.
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We're all going to experience trouble.
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That's right.
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And so then the question becomes, well, how does your worldview
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adequately explain the trouble you're experiencing?
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Does your worldview adequately, adequately explain you the way you really are?
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So I would say, look, if Christianity is true,
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it's foundational documents ought to describe the world the way it really is.
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And I tell you, oh my goodness.
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I mean, the Bible is just amazing how blatant it is when it comes to evil.
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And the nature of man and you read the Old Testament, you cringe sometimes.
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But I'm thankful they put it in and I'm thankful God has that in his word.
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Jim, really quick, why do you think people are so fascinated with true crime and these detective
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stories and getting the solution of evil and these crime scenes that you have investigated?
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Well, I think there are a couple of things.
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At number one, we love mysteries.
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We love to be able to puzzle our pride says I can solve it before you.
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And even though I tell people all the time that when I've done a bunch of
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date line episodes and when we start a date line episode and we're doing the interviews,
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well, Keith Morrison, the producers, we already know who the bad guy is.
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We already know how it turned out.
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But they'll typically ask, you know, in the story, was there somebody you investigated
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early on who didn't end up being the guy?
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And sometimes there is.
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And if there is, of course, they're going to want to exploit that and make that guy
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look like the killer for the first half of the show.
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Even though we might have come off the guy right away, we might have said, you know,
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five minutes and we're like, no, this isn't our guy.
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Well, why are they doing that?
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Because they know that many viewers are watching true crime because they're,
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they love the idea of solving a mystery before anybody else does.
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Because that's number one.
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But I think recently I was reading a writer online, an article that she wrote,
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because she was noting that it's not just that true crime is popular and it is.
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It's like the most popular category right now in podcasts, television shows,
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even in movies.
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But what's interesting is that most fans of true crime are women.
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And that was what she was trying to investigate.
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Like, why is that the case?
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She, her observation, and this is what she, and this is not like a study,
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but this is what she was offering, was that because so many suspects in these cases are men.
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And so many of the victims are often women.
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That there's an audience that sees each episode like a cautionary tale.
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Like, like, this is a way for me to kind of investigate how I can make sure I'm not going to be a
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victim. Now, that's a fascinating part.
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And I think that's kind of what we're leveraging here in this book is that, yes, it's true.
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Every one of these crimes, even as I was investigating it in real time, I'm thinking to myself,
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wow, I'm a father.
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This is something I want to tell my kids.
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This is one of those.
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This is why probably if you're a son or a daughter of a cop, you got advice that was maybe a little
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a little more blunt and strict than some of your friends growing up.
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You know, don't do that.
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You're not allowing you to do that.
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And it's because we kind of seen where this leads.
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And every one of these cases we work is a cautionary tale.
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And although, for example,
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not every person who uses marijuana ends up being a heroin addict.
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But a lot of the heroin addicts that I meet, the majority probably started smoking marijuana.
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And so the question we always have is, is this thing always going to lead to this?
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We know that if you're over here, typically this is in your background.
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Well, this happens in cases where you're like going, okay,
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um, this kind of often when we get to a murder, we see these kinds of relational issues earlier.
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But it turns out some of those relational issues I see earlier before the murder are common to all
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of us. So then you're starting to wonder, well, if I see it in my own life or in the life of my
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daughter or my son, does this mean we're on the path to this bad thing?
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Because often when we work the bad thing, we see that that is present in the past.
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So, so I think a lot of it is me trying to figure out, well, what are the basic principles
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they can help you flourish and also keep you from stumbling?
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So Jim, what was one of the most surprising things you learned back in your detective days
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investigating murders and these really some horrific crimes really?
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Okay, well, I would kind of touch on it a little bit, but I think if I was to ask people,
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and I say this often, and I, it's only one chapter of this book, but I think it's an important
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chapter. It's a chapter about a gangster who was kind of a street legend in his time,
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in his, in his where he was based on a couple of things based on his family connections to other
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powerful members of of of of the gang based on his appearance. He was tattooed like in a way I
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came to describe accurately because it was so incredibly bold and brass and and brash and and
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and vulgar. And say, and he was also vicious and he was able to get away with stuff. I mean,
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he never we never get, never pin anything on this guy. So he was like a legend amongst his,
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his peers. And I wanted to kind of chart what happened to this guy because if I ask most people
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who are not Christians, what do you think is the one attribute of human flourishing that would
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cause you to flourish at the highest level? Everything would improve the depth of your relationships.
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Your marriage will improve. You'll be a better student. You'll get better grades. You'll be
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able to discern truths from error better. You'll make more money. You'll be a better leader,
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a better employer, a better employee. You'll make everything you can measure will improve if
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you'll simply adopt this. Well, the studies show it. We've been doing these days for about 35
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years. But most, I think nonbelievers, if I said to you, what is it? I've had people say,
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I don't know, exercise. Is it, you know, what it turns out? It's humility. Humility. Wow.
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The studies show is the one thing that changes everything. And there's only one worldview that
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really leverages humility. Wow. And it's the Christian worldview. And here's why if you're not a
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believer and you're a secular humanist, well, then you're living in a world in which you believe
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that your effort should result in something. If I do these things, I'll have this result.
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And anytime you're in a position where you're doing is the thing that provides a reward of some sort,
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that just builds pride. It's the, it builds your belief that I earned this. And you can't help,
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but look across the room and say, well, I'm doing better than that guy. And I'm better than that guy
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because he doesn't do any of this stuff. And, and by the way, if he gets promoted and you did
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more than him, you know, you're bitter and, and, and divided from him because you believe you're
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a better, but it just, it harbors. I had a friend, Mike Adams was no longer with us. And he,
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he used to tease that I wrote this book, Jim, how to become humble in 10 easy steps and how I made
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it in eight. Okay. That's the problem. If you're trying to, that earning is a prideful. So,
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so the secular worldviews are really based on doing. But it turns out that every theistic
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worldview, aside from Christianity, is also based on doing, I'm going to do these four things to be
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work. I'm going to do these eight things, these 10 things, whatever it may be, to earn God's
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favor, to be in God's presence, to earn the best that this theistic worldview or this spiritual
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worldview offers. If there's a worldview out there, though, that says, no, it's not about what
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you can do because you're pretty messed up and you really don't have the ability to do anything
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that would please God because you just don't understand God's holiness if you think you can
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impress him. And instead, what we're going to do is we're going to give this to you as a free gift
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so that no one can boast. Well, that is the Christian worldview. It begins with an active
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humility on your part. You'd have to admit first, you're not God. And, and most of us have a hard
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time doing that. We want to be the controller of our environments. There is a God and you're not
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him. And you'd have to accept this free gift and recognize that even the efforts that you make
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that you think are good, that you think might even be God honoring our God pleasing. You're probably
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doing them for the wrong reason anyway. A selfish reason. Trying to get a transaction with God. I
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earned this God or you're trying to impress people around you. It turns out that even our selfishness
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are innate, deep selfishness can produce moral behavior because we are, but we're doing it for
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the wrong reason. Even that does not impress God. You'd have to be given to you freely. And again,
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the more you're impressed with God's holiness, the more less impressed you're going to be. It's
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what dispersion calls a proper assessment. You cannot pursue humility. You have to realize
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humility. You have to have a proper assessment of who you are. So it turns out that that observation
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I you can make by working because a lot of these cases I work are people who think they can get
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away with anything because they're special. Well, okay. It turns out that those folks don't possess
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humility and it always leads someplace bad. And it turns out that the, no, it might just be a
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coincidence that Christianity is the one worldview that leverages the one most important attribute
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that leads to human flourishing. Could be a coincidence or it could be that that's a design
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feature because it's coming from the mind of a holy God who has created us. And as his design,
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as it's designed, we are flourishing because we are following the design of the designer.
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It might just be that that's what it is. So I think that each one of these attributes you'll
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see is an evidence because every one of these, look, every one of these is we are longing for
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something as C. S. Lewis says that we cannot find in this world because we were never designed for
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this world. Amen. We are longing for something that is realized ultimately in God. And so because
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we were designed for him to be with him, we long for this. In his absence, we constantly long
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for these things. But it turns out if you'll simply follow his instructions for a life,
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if I always say this way, if you're aiming at this bullseye called human flourishing and you're
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throwing your dart and you're just trying to hit the bullseye, which is human flourishing.
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Well, if you manage to do it, you're going to find that your dart is sitting in the middle of what
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we call Christianity, even if you never realized it because it turns out that that is, if you'll
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simply follow the instructions of the designer, you will operate as designed. Amen, brother.
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That could some really profound thoughts there. And I love the fact about what you said about
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the biblical worldview and the humility. Yeah, and works. And by the way, I say all of that,
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right? But look, look behind me. What do I have behind me? All the glory wall of the stuff that I
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have. So, so, so, so, look, I say all the time that I'm the worst example of any of these
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attributes because because I'm, I'm as fallenly human as anyone else. And, and I'm a train wreck,
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like everybody else. But here's what I've noticed in culture. I'm sure you're showing
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the captures it perfectly because what we're seeing is that we're no longer aiming at anything.
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Like we're no longer aiming at the things that cause human flourishing. We think they're not
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important. And if you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time. That's exactly the problem we're
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having in culture. So, so I, although I know I'm not going to hit it, I know I'm not going to be,
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I still know I ought to aim at it. And that's why I think I wanted to write a book that says,
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hey, these are the 15 things that I'm also terrible at that I also know better, but I know I should
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be aiming at these 15 things. Amen, brother. Yeah, we've got a lot of work to do. And we're not,
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I mean, this is the process of sanctification, right? Yeah, absolutely.
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You're rolling in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior. And you never stop growing
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until you die. And then you're glorified, Lord willing. The truth and true crime,
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want to just mention what Cissy Graham Lynch said about the book. And, you know,
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we are fans of Harbinger's Daily, they sponsor World View Matters. And I have a reason for saying
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that she is one of the featured authors over, or writers and podcasters over at Harbinger's Daily.
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She said, once again, J. Warner Wallace continues to use his longtime experience as a homicide
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detective and gives one of a kind approach to look at human nature, the struggles we face,
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and how each of us desire and seek truth. Who would have known that decades of cold case
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investigations answers some of the most important questions about life, death, purpose,
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and identity from a biblical world view. And she, of course, does the podcast fearless
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with Cissy Graham Lynch. And you did one on Mormonism versus Christianity with her.
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We did one last week with James Walker of Watchman Ministries.
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So we did one, it was a common topic, Mormonism. We have to know how to respond to people of
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other faiths and other religions. But something caught my eye about her quote, Jim. And that's
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who would have known, like you would have never imagined when you were in investigating these
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murders, these true crimes that now you'd be using these as lessons to write the book about human
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nature and flourishing and what you learned, right? Well, I'll tell you that that's exactly right,
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because I was serving as a youth pastor for years. When my kids became, when I became a Christian,
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my kids were young. When they were growing up, I just followed them along in ministry,
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eventually a disciplinary, became the youth pastor of just a volunteer. I was working full-time
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as a homicide detective. And then ultimately I planted a Southern Baptist church. And then I was
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a full-time, I was not a full-time, but I was a lead pastor. Again, working also as a homicide
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detective. And I always thought that if my life beyond my career and law enforcement would probably
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just be a life as a pastor, right? I would just probably continue pastoring this church.
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I never thought, like, I'm going to be a Christian apologist. I'm going to write a book. I just
23:37
happen to be with Sean McDowell, Josh McDowell's son, and Sean is, you should stop saying that,
23:42
because Sean McDowell is establishing himself as an absolutely excellent polygist on his own.
23:47
And so I'm with Sean on training students. And he was the one who said, Jim, you should write a
23:51
book about what you're teaching these students here. And it was stuff that I had been teaching
23:54
students for 10 or 12 years. And it was really not even the stuff that I was spending time with
24:00
my own congregation. Like, it wasn't, I've already kind of moved past it. I knew it was true.
24:05
Now I was trying to teach them how do we live it? And so, but it was the stuff that's in cold
24:10
case Christianity. And that book was cold case Christianity. Well, that launched me in a certain
24:15
direction. And although that direction has been great, that direction was purely Christian
24:20
apologetics. And when you're, your publisher sees you that way, then I was encouraged to write a
24:25
bunch more Christian apologetics books. So I could empty out the process that I went through to
24:30
become a Christian. Well, you know what, that was really probably not how I would have seen any of
24:35
this. I had really no interest. I was interested in leading this church that I had planted. And,
24:42
but this took them to different directions. So yeah, I didn't know it. I didn't know it was coming.
24:47
And I certainly, while I was doing date line cases, would never have thought, well, is this
24:52
somehow going to lead to an opportunity to preach the gospel? No, because you'll see that if you
24:58
were even just saying anything about God and those kinds of shows, it's going to get scrubed.
25:03
Not because they're evenly, they're sinister, they're trying to hide this. Not at all. As a matter of
25:09
fact, Keith Morrison's father was a pastor. And I think his grandfather was also a pastor. So it's
25:14
not like they're trying to scrub that. It's just that there's no room for that in a date line
25:20
episode, unless it's part of the story of the murder. So I think that part of it, I just didn't see
25:26
that this was going to open up as an opportunity. But God uses all of us. This is what I want to say
25:30
that anyone who's listening to this right now, you might think, well, yeah, but I don't have this
25:35
or that that would lead up to an opera. Not true. Not true. It turns out that the people that I
25:41
reach are only people who are interested in this niche. But you've got a niche. If you're listening
25:46
to this, this based on your experience and there are people out there who are sharing an experience
25:51
with you that they don't even know. You haven't even talked to them about it yet that you could
25:55
actually help because your marriage is like theirs or your injury is like their injury or your
26:01
trauma is like their trauma. So what we have to do is look and say, well, how is it that God can use?
26:07
This is a chapter of the book as a matter of fact. How is it that God could use what I've experienced
26:13
to bless others? It's a first Corinthians, I think chapter two or chapter one. It's an idea that
26:18
yes, you've been allowed to experience something good and something bad so that you now can turn
26:26
and help others who are experiencing the same things. That's right. Amen, brother. Man, there's so
26:31
much more I wanted to get to but people can go to your website. There's so many resources and you
26:36
can download them. You can sign up for your newsletter. You can get the books. But the book website
26:42
friends is the truth in truecrime.com, the truth in truecrime.com. Jay Warner Wallace will have to
26:50
do this again and I just appreciate it. It's just so fascinating. Your journey is really unique
26:55
and just how you came to Christ and and you're and what you're putting out now and how you're helping
27:01
so many people. So I'm just thankful that you're able to come on and just share with our audience.
27:05
So God bless you. Well, I'm just so delighted to be partnered with you and with everyone who's
27:09
listening to this because as the body of Christ, we get to work together to advance the gospel.
27:14
Thanks for having me. Yep, we all have a sphere of influence. And by the way, I've had Lisa's
27:18
shoulders. I've had Sean McDowell on a couple of months ago. Love these brothers and sisters in
27:23
Christ and it's it's wonderful. Everybody takes it, you know, a different aspect of their
27:28
life and expertise and ministry and and we're all in this together same goal, right? That's right.
27:33
We're all part of that same body. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks, Jim. God bless you.
27:38
Friends, thanks for sharing the podcast. It's getting out there because of you and your support
27:43
and prayers. God bless you and as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.