Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: S1E49 An Interview with John Follis and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: S1E49 An Interview with John Follis and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

• 0:17
  and welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building
• 0:20
  Profitable Connections. Welcome back to the show,
• 0:23
  folks. I'm your host, Michael Foreman, and you're
• 0:26
  listening to the podcast where networking is
• 0:29
  more than just awkward handshakes and bad coffee.
• 0:32
  It's an art and a talent. But here's the twist.
• 0:35
  It's an art and talent you can actually learn.
• 0:39
  Yes, even if you're the person hiding in the
• 0:42
  corner at every event pretending to check emails.
• 0:46
  Networking isn't just a nice skill to have. It's
• 0:49
  a game changer. When you get good at it, you'll
• 0:52
  wonder why you didn't start sooner. More connections,
• 0:55
  more opportunities, more profits. It's like unlocking
• 0:59
  a cheat code for life. I've got a guest today,
• 1:04
  John Follis. And I have to tell you, he is everything
• 1:10
  that I am striving to be. He is that he's got
• 1:14
  that type of background. I am a speaker and so
• 1:17
  is he. And he's at the he says he's retired,
• 1:20
  which I personally don't understand. You can
• 1:22
  never retire from speaking. But let me just say
• 1:26
  that at 33, John co -founded a Madison Avenue
• 1:31
  ad agency that became one of the most successful
• 1:35
  in the country. And before I butcher his background,
• 1:39
  I'm going to introduce John Follis and have him
• 1:43
  give you a little bit more. John, welcome to
• 1:45
  my show. Hey, Michael. So glad to be on your
• 1:48
  show. Thanks for inviting me. No problem. Tell
• 1:51
  us a little bit about your background. As you
• 1:54
  mentioned, I worked in New York City for most
• 1:56
  of my career, not all of it, but for about 25
• 1:59
  years. And worked for some of the big agencies
• 2:03
  on some big brands like Pizza Hut and Volkswagen.
• 2:07
  And then I switched gears and took an entrepreneurial
• 2:11
  route, started freelancing. And through that
• 2:14
  experience, connected with a business development
• 2:17
  guy who turned out to be my partner. And because
• 2:23
  of the business that we were able to pick up
• 2:26
  pretty quickly after working together. Well,
• 2:29
  we soon found ourselves as a partner in an ad
• 2:31
  agency and very quickly grew the agency and became
• 2:35
  one of the most successful in New York. We were
• 2:38
  winning all kinds of awards. We were beating
• 2:41
  out all the big agencies in the award shows,
• 2:43
  which was pretty exciting when you're just 33,
• 2:46
  34 years old. And I didn't have to worry about
• 2:50
  networking because he was such a great business
• 2:53
  development guy. He was doing all the required
• 2:57
  networking. Shortly after that partnership started,
• 3:01
  I ended up branching off and starting another
• 3:05
  agency on my own. And at that point, I really
• 3:08
  had to get my networking skills up to speed.
• 3:11
  So you and I talked a little bit prior to this
• 3:14
  interview. I shared a little bit of my perspective
• 3:17
  on that with you, which is why I think you thought
• 3:20
  I would have something interesting to share here.
• 3:24
  It's good. I am told you I'm very interested
• 3:27
  in what you would have to say. But let's just
• 3:30
  go right into my questions. How did you first
• 3:33
  discover the power of public speaking as a networking
• 3:37
  tool? I think everyone in business has had the
• 3:42
  experience of going to a big networking event
• 3:45
  that has a speaker. And people do a little chit
• 3:50
  chat. In the beginning, they have their bad coffee
• 3:53
  or their good coffee, whatever the case may be.
• 3:56
  And then everyone takes a seat and listens to
• 3:58
  the presentation, the speaker. And after going
• 4:02
  through that experience more times than I wish
• 4:06
  to recall, I realized, and I should say, coming
• 4:11
  away from those experiences with less than positive
• 4:14
  experiences because In those situations, you
• 4:18
  come across a lot of salespeople who within seconds
• 4:22
  are shoving their business card in your face
• 4:25
  and just going on and on about how great they
• 4:29
  are, their businesses. And it's really not, I
• 4:33
  just found it's not, in most cases, not in every
• 4:36
  case, but in most cases, not a very effective
• 4:38
  environment to network. What occurred to me after
• 4:43
  going through those experiences a number of times
• 4:45
  was instead of going to an event that had a speaker
• 4:51
  and listen where I could listen to the speaker,
• 4:54
  I decided maybe it would be good if I became
• 4:58
  the speaker. Because I can't imagine any other
• 5:03
  better way of connecting, not just with a few
• 5:08
  people in the audience. but with every person
• 5:11
  in the audience than being the featured speaker,
• 5:14
  right? So once, to me, that was a game -changing
• 5:19
  understanding. Then the question became, would
• 5:24
  I have the balls to learn how to have the confidence
• 5:28
  to get myself up in front of an audience and
• 5:31
  do that? But once I decided that was a strategy
• 5:35
  that would be a good strategy to take because...
• 5:39
  Again, New York is a very competitive place,
• 5:41
  and your success really depends on the connections
• 5:45
  you make. And so I felt like I had no choice.
• 5:49
  I wanted to do whatever it took to make the connections
• 5:52
  I needed to make to be successful. So I just
• 5:54
  made a decision. I had to become a good public
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  speaker and do that. Very astute. I have found,
• 6:05
  really, as of the pandemic, that the days of
• 6:09
  building your customer list is passé. It's building
• 6:13
  relationships. And what you do with those relationships
• 6:16
  and how you follow up with those relationships
• 6:19
  is really key. And that's probably the revelation
• 6:23
  that you came across. You said, you know what?
• 6:27
  I'm meeting all these people, but I'm not getting
• 6:29
  anywhere. when you start to build those relationships,
• 6:33
  then you start getting a little traction. What
• 6:36
  are your top three strategies for turning a speaking
• 6:40
  engagement into valuable network connections?
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  First of all, I would say to be talking about
• 6:48
  a topic that people give a damn about. That's
• 6:53
  the beginning. You don't want to bore people.
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  And in addition to the topic, you've got to make
• 6:59
  sure your presentation is engaging because you
• 7:02
  could be talking about something that everyone
• 7:04
  is interested in. But if you bore them in the
• 7:07
  first three minutes to that presentation, they're
• 7:12
  not going to be listening to it. So then it becomes
• 7:16
  a challenge. How do you get interested? And as
• 7:19
  an advertising guy, as a creative person, that
• 7:22
  was a challenge that I was more than happy to
• 7:24
  take because I was able to apply my creativity
• 7:29
  using visuals or whatever it took. In many cases,
• 7:33
  it involved a PowerPoint presentation or some
• 7:36
  kind of visual presentation that I felt could
• 7:39
  really help in keeping them engaged in the conversation.
• 7:42
  So that would be another tip. And lastly, and
• 7:46
  I'm sure you can appreciate this, is make it
• 7:49
  easy for them to get in touch with you. Make
• 7:52
  it and repeat it multiple times so it's not just
• 7:55
  up there for 10 seconds. That if they don't have
• 7:58
  their phones ready to take a picture of it or
• 8:00
  a pen ready to write down your website or email,
• 8:04
  that they're going to be able to capture whatever
• 8:07
  information they need to follow up with you.
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  So have that information and repeat it. In fact,
• 8:13
  have it on every slide if you're doing a PowerPoint
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  presentation. Have whatever contact information
• 8:17
  they need. It doesn't have to be big. It could
• 8:22
  be small in the corner, but have that easily
• 8:25
  seen in your presentation so they can follow
• 8:28
  up with you if they want to. Very good. Very
• 8:31
  good. Okay. How would you define personal brand
• 8:36
  and why it's crucial for networking? If anyone
• 8:41
  understands the concept of a brand, if they're
• 8:44
  in a business and if they are the head of that
• 8:48
  business, especially if they basically the business
• 8:52
  is them, like in your case, right? Your business
• 8:55
  is essentially you are the face of your business,
• 8:57
  especially in a situation like that. Your personal
• 9:00
  brand is critical. And just the way a brand is.
• 9:06
  important for any larger business. Apple has
• 9:09
  a brand, for example. That's how people are going
• 9:12
  to perceive you. And just because you're one
• 9:15
  person, it doesn't mean that you don't have to
• 9:18
  think about a brand. Even if you're one person,
• 9:22
  you still have a personal brand. The more that
• 9:24
  you can develop not just a brand, but a positive
• 9:28
  brand that's going to be something that people
• 9:32
  are going to be attracted by, more success I
• 9:37
  think you're going to have in business. That's
• 9:41
  very true because your personal brand, because
• 9:44
  people think that your personal brand, if you're
• 9:47
  a solopreneur, then you are your personal brand,
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  but you can have a team of people yet you are
• 9:53
  the face of your brand and still it's your personal
• 9:57
  brand. But it's very important that you maintain
• 9:59
  that brand when you look at the billboards nowadays.
• 10:04
  and accident attorneys. Always the guy with his
• 10:09
  name and that's it. No contact information or
• 10:12
  anything. That is building his brand so that
• 10:15
  all you know of is him and what number to call.
• 10:19
  Eventually, hopefully, we can get to that point.
• 10:22
  Okay, so what steps can someone take to start
• 10:27
  developing their personal brand today? Well,
• 10:32
  the first step is to decide what that brand is
• 10:36
  because it's not going to be the same for everyone.
• 10:40
  So a brand, whether it's for Apple or whether
• 10:45
  it's for you or I, has to come out of something
• 10:48
  that's true about the product. You can't say
• 10:53
  you're the best if you're not. You can't say
• 10:58
  so because people find that out pretty quickly
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  if it's bullshit. It really has to come up from
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  a true essence of who you are and what you're
• 11:07
  about. For example, when I split off from my
• 11:11
  business partner and all of a sudden had to start
• 11:13
  thinking of what my brand was going to be for
• 11:16
  my new agency, it was pretty simple. And that
• 11:20
  was that our agency did work that got people
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  excited. Just very simple, very simple concept.
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  That may have been true for other agencies. They
• 11:31
  just weren't saying it. And certainly many of
• 11:34
  them weren't proving it by their work. I wasn't
• 11:37
  going to say that, have that be my brand, if
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  I didn't truly believe that I could back that
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  up with the work that I did for our clients.
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  So on my business card, I wish I had one handy.
• 11:49
  If you go to my website, the first thing you're
• 11:51
  going to see is a visual of some crazy excited
• 11:54
  eyes. And that was on my business card. So when
• 11:58
  I handed out my business card to anyone, it didn't
• 12:00
  look like your typical business card. I don't
• 12:03
  know. This is going to not be on video for a
• 12:05
  lot of people, but it's not going to look like
• 12:07
  your typical business card. It had these crazy
• 12:10
  excited eyes on it. And in often cases, it started
• 12:15
  a conversation because it was just so unexpected.
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  That was just one example of how I focused on
• 12:21
  the brand and how I built my brand. But again,
• 12:24
  I had to back it up with everything I did. Absolutely.
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  And you have to, the first thing that you say
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  to somebody, prospective client or somebody,
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  it's that everybody talks about that 30 second
• 12:39
  elevator speech. Listen, I help people perfect
• 12:43
  that 30 -second elevator speech, but I say, no,
• 12:46
  you should give it to them in five seconds. If
• 12:50
  you can't draw their attention in that first
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  five seconds, the first sentence, then what are
• 12:54
  you doing? You have to revamp it, revamp it again.
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  Because the saying, you know, fake it till you
• 13:00
  make it, it doesn't exist. You have to know what
• 13:03
  you're doing because, as you said, people can
• 13:06
  see right through you and see whether or not
• 13:08
  you're telling the truth or not. So it's very
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  true what you're saying. It's true what you're
• 13:13
  saying. And I have a great story about the elevator
• 13:17
  speech that relates to exactly what we're both
• 13:21
  saying. I met someone in an elevator that ended
• 13:27
  up in a meeting with that person a couple of
• 13:29
  weeks later, which ended up in signing a deal
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  for a $93 ,000 project that required four months
• 13:38
  of my time. So it came directly out of what you
• 13:43
  just said and what I shared about my business
• 13:46
  card because she was a keynote speaker at this
• 13:50
  event that I had just attended. And when I was
• 13:53
  leaving that event, I found myself in the elevator
• 13:56
  with her. So I knew I had a 90 -second opportunity
• 14:03
  until that elevator went from the 32nd floor
• 14:07
  to the ground floor. to try to connect with this
• 14:11
  person. And I was very sincere. I said, listen,
• 14:15
  I just heard your presentation. I was very impressed
• 14:17
  by it. Great job. To which she then said, thank
• 14:22
  you. And who are you? What do you do? Which then
• 14:26
  prompted me to give her, say what I just said.
• 14:29
  I have a business that helps get your prospects
• 14:31
  excited. And I handed her my business card. And
• 14:36
  she looked at it. And she looked at it for about
• 14:39
  five or 10 seconds. And then on the back of the
• 14:44
  business card, I had a quote that said, if you
• 14:47
  want people excited about your business, you
• 14:49
  have to get them excited about your advertising.
• 14:52
  So that kind of summed up that excited concept.
• 14:56
  And after about 30 seconds of studying my business
• 15:00
  cards, she said, you know something, this may
• 15:02
  be the best business card I've ever seen. I don't
• 15:04
  have time to chat now, but let's have lunch.
• 15:09
  And like I said, that lunch that we had after
• 15:12
  the conversation we had, which probably lasted
• 15:15
  an hour and a half where she got to know a little
• 15:17
  bit more about my business, turned into an offer
• 15:20
  to do this $93 ,000 project that really only
• 15:25
  took, actually was less than four months of my
• 15:27
  time. So again, to your point, the power of,
• 15:32
  you know, what I say when people say the elevator
• 15:34
  speech, the last thing it should be is a speech.
• 15:38
  That's the last thing. What it should be, there's
• 15:40
  a term in advertising, it's called a teaser.
• 15:42
  Maybe you know what that is. So that's what it
• 15:44
  should be. The whole point of this elevator speech
• 15:47
  is not to tell them what you do. It's to tell
• 15:52
  them enough to want to know more about what you
• 15:55
  do when they get off the elevator. Tell them
• 15:59
  just enough so that they have to ask you a question.
• 16:03
  So they want to know, so they don't want the
• 16:05
  conversation to end when you get off the elevator.
• 16:08
  They want to keep talking about you. If you did
• 16:11
  that, then you won. You've achieved the goal
• 16:14
  of that elevator pitch, elevator speech. But
• 16:18
  that's very true. And that's quite a nice story.
• 16:22
  So let's change a little bit. And what were some
• 16:26
  of the obstacles you faced when building your
• 16:28
  network through public speaking? But how did
• 16:31
  you overcome them as well? Trying to think. So
• 16:37
  I don't know if your audiences are seeing me,
• 16:43
  but I'm an old guy. It's been a while since I've
• 16:48
  done this. I'm 70. I've been retired about 10
• 16:51
  years. So you're asking me questions about things
• 16:54
  that were done 30 years ago. So I'm trying to
• 16:58
  think of some obstacles. I guess there's always
• 17:01
  an obstacle. Anytime you're up in front of people
• 17:05
  speaking, you may have people talking. You may
• 17:09
  have some interruptions. It may not be the best
• 17:12
  environment to give a presentation. Maybe the
• 17:15
  audio equipment is not. working the way it should
• 17:18
  be. So there are all kinds of things that can
• 17:20
  go wrong, right, when you're giving a presentation.
• 17:23
  And I think the challenges of something like
• 17:25
  that happens is to just try to ignore it as well
• 17:29
  as you can and just do the best job you can under
• 17:32
  those circumstances. Yeah, I've found when...
• 17:36
  I've gone onto stages and something like that
• 17:39
  hasn't worked, whether it was the audio, whether
• 17:43
  the visual didn't work or something else like
• 17:45
  that. I owned it right away and I made fun of
• 17:48
  it. I made a joke about it and everybody had
• 17:51
  a good laugh and we moved on, but I moved on
• 17:53
  without the video or audio, whatever the case
• 17:56
  might be. There was one time where even the floor
• 17:58
  became unbalanced. So I made a joke about that.
• 18:03
  So it's just a matter of what comes your way.
• 18:05
  You have to make a joke of it and just own it
• 18:07
  and move on. That's all. Yeah. You have to have
• 18:11
  the ability to improvise. Absolutely. And be
• 18:14
  prepared for any situation. And being a public
• 18:17
  speaker, that's synonymous with that. Because
• 18:20
  you have to be able to roll with just about everything.
• 18:23
  Can you share a specific example of how a speaking
• 18:28
  opportunity led to a significant networking breakthrough.
• 18:33
  I think your elevator story pretty much summed
• 18:36
  that up. So do you want to add something to that?
• 18:40
  I can't think of a better example. It's a prime
• 18:43
  example. It really is. I don't know that would
• 18:46
  ever happen again if I had a career that lasted
• 18:50
  100 years. That was just a very... And it just
• 18:52
  proves that you never know when there's going
• 18:56
  to be an opportunity that you could benefit.
• 18:59
  from you just don't know that's true that's true
• 19:05
  and it just the point is situation okay okay
• 19:12
  now i'm going to shift this a little bit to an
• 19:14
  online question and tell me if it's a little
• 19:17
  bit past where you are because i don't know how
• 19:20
  active you are online How do you leverage social
• 19:25
  media and online platforms to enhance your personal
• 19:30
  brand and networking efforts? Sure. You're right.
• 19:34
  I don't need to be hustling anymore, but I can
• 19:37
  still answer that question. Maybe you can relate
• 19:40
  to this. I'm sure some of your listeners can
• 19:42
  relate to this. It astounds me on how many people
• 19:47
  don't realize how important their LinkedIn profile
• 19:50
  is. and many of them have nothing for the masthead
• 19:55
  that goes behind their photo, and they haven't
• 19:58
  maxed out everything you can do on LinkedIn.
• 20:01
  You can do so much on LinkedIn. You could post
• 20:03
  images. You could post videos. You can really
• 20:05
  max out your LinkedIn profile, and I just don't
• 20:08
  understand why anyone, especially if they're
• 20:10
  in a business, their own business, why they haven't
• 20:13
  done that. So that would certainly be my first
• 20:16
  suggestion is if anyone wants to. look at an
• 20:20
  example. They could look at yours. They could
• 20:22
  look at my LinkedIn page and they can see and
• 20:25
  maybe get some ideas from that. The other thing
• 20:29
  I would just say is take advantage of every social
• 20:32
  media channel that you think your prospect might
• 20:37
  be looking at. Again, it's not that hard to post
• 20:43
  content on any social media platform. You just
• 20:47
  have to be willing to take the time. to do it
• 20:49
  i would just encourage everyone to if you don't
• 20:54
  have an instagram page or profile put one up
• 20:57
  if you don't have a youtube channel i think that's
• 21:00
  important too i think video is really more important
• 21:03
  than it has ever been facebook there's every
• 21:06
  month there's a new social media channel it's
• 21:09
  easy to get overwhelmed by it but there are certainly
• 21:13
  three or four of them that you can't ignore that
• 21:17
  you have to just take advantage of for sure.
• 21:21
  Sure. And it's true that there's something new
• 21:24
  coming out every month, but I believe that really
• 21:29
  that all my listeners, that they should only
• 21:31
  really pick one or two of them that they're really
• 21:35
  going to fully get behind. Listen, I post every
• 21:39
  day on LinkedIn, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram,
• 21:43
  and YouTube. Okay. I post a reel, but I do that
• 21:47
  twice a day. Every day. Wow. So it's just and
• 21:51
  it's how you get a lot of traction. And really,
• 21:54
  by them, by you posting as often and as consistently,
• 21:59
  that's the key word, consistently as possible,
• 22:02
  then the algorithms start to include you and
• 22:06
  you go further and further out. But LinkedIn
• 22:09
  is business. That's strictly business. Everything
• 22:13
  else, just really stay out of it. Graham and
• 22:15
  YouTube, that's great for reels and short videos
• 22:19
  and things like that. Facebook, some people use
• 22:21
  it for ads. Some people don't. They use it for
• 22:24
  family. They don't. So that's up in the air.
• 22:26
  But that's what I do. I am consistent every day.
• 22:31
  The first thing in the morning when I get up
• 22:33
  is I post on all the medias. I say it like it
• 22:38
  takes me an hour. It takes me 30 seconds. OK,
• 22:43
  because I use a program called Opus Clips and
• 22:46
  I just break apart whatever video I have and
• 22:49
  it gives me for 10 days and that posts on all
• 22:53
  of them. You know, that's what I do. And I think
• 22:55
  that's a very good option to work at. I would
• 22:58
  just add I would add one more media platform
• 23:00
  to that. Sure. As I said, I'm an old guy, but
• 23:04
  if I was active right now in my business, I would
• 23:08
  also be on TikTok. I think that is probably the
• 23:12
  fastest growing social media platform. So you
• 23:16
  could argue that's just teenage girls dancing,
• 23:18
  but actually it's not. It's become, that's how
• 23:21
  it started. But now if you go on TikTok, you
• 23:24
  see a lot of very serious businesses using that
• 23:27
  platform to market themselves for good reasons.
• 23:30
  It's not that hard to just reformat your video.
• 23:33
  If you already have the content, it's just a
• 23:36
  matter of maybe reformatting it so it works for
• 23:39
  TikTok and just uploading it. Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:43
  And you're right. I didn't think about that because
• 23:45
  I just... recently getting everything together
• 23:48
  for TikTok because I was really waiting to see
• 23:51
  whether it was going to happen with it, bought,
• 23:54
  sold, whatever. But it seems like somebody's
• 23:56
  going to buy it and it's going to remain in the
• 23:58
  country. So I'm going to get behind that as well.
• 24:01
  Yes, that's a very good idea. Let's talk about
• 24:05
  authenticity. How do you balance being authentic
• 24:08
  and crafting a polished professional, I'm sorry,
• 24:12
  a polished personal brand image? They're not
• 24:17
  mutually exclusive. They should be the same thing.
• 24:21
  And I think it goes back to what we just talked
• 24:24
  about. People are going to judge your image or
• 24:29
  your brand or learn about you by what it is that
• 24:32
  you put on the internet. Unless, you know, they're
• 24:36
  seeing you in person. Most of the people are
• 24:39
  going to know about you by... what you post.
• 24:42
  I call it G cred. I came up with this term in
• 24:44
  2006 called G cred, which is your Google credibility.
• 24:50
  Do you have it? Do you have G cred? And the better
• 24:54
  your content on the internet, social media platforms
• 24:59
  defines your image. I think the more that they
• 25:05
  will, your audience will have the image of you
• 25:08
  that you want them to have. So it all comes down
• 25:10
  to your ability to reinforce that image you just
• 25:16
  described by the video, the writing, the interviews,
• 25:22
  these podcasts. There's so many ways. There's
• 25:25
  so many ways to create content. And all of it
• 25:29
  has to funnel into that brand image, the way
• 25:33
  that you want to be defined. It's got to continue
• 25:35
  to reinforce that. That's right. That's right.
• 25:39
  It makes you what you are on the internet. It
• 25:44
  makes you are the way that you want to be perceived.
• 25:47
  And you don't have to be afraid because people
• 25:50
  ask me all the time, oh, I want to do a podcast,
• 25:53
  but I was afraid to get started and things like
• 25:56
  that. And I said, look, don't be afraid. Just
• 25:58
  do it. Just get started. Start with a phone,
• 26:01
  start with whatever, and just start podcasting
• 26:04
  because after a while, you'll get better. and
• 26:07
  better. And by the 10th, 12th, 15th podcast,
• 26:11
  you look back at the first one and say, oh my
• 26:14
  God, I sucked. I was so bad. Come on. Michael,
• 26:17
  you don't know this because I haven't told you.
• 26:21
  I used to have a podcast when my first podcast,
• 26:25
  it was called The Marketing Show with John Follis.
• 26:27
  Do you know when it went up? You want to guess?
• 26:30
  Just by the way that you're talking, I'm going
• 26:32
  to say 2000. Hey, Michael, podcasting didn't
• 26:37
  start until mid 2005. I know that. So I had a
• 26:43
  podcast went up in early 2006 and I did it for
• 26:48
  seven years. See that? And that's what it's all
• 26:53
  about. And now I think I read a stat that there's
• 26:55
  4 million podcasts and it's growing every year.
• 27:00
  It's just a matter of if you want to do it, You
• 27:04
  want to get your word out, get your word out.
• 27:06
  Most people just have fun with it. I love doing
• 27:09
  a podcast because I'm speaking to you. I spoke
• 27:12
  with somebody in Israel yesterday, somebody from
• 27:16
  Australia, somebody, someone from the UK. It's
• 27:19
  great. So it brings everybody together. Okay,
• 27:22
  let's, I have two more questions for you. And
• 27:25
  this one is concerning your success. What metrics
• 27:29
  or indicators do you use to gouge the effectiveness
• 27:33
  of your networking and personal branding efforts?
• 27:38
  What metrics? There's different metrics that
• 27:43
  people can use for success. For me, I didn't
• 27:48
  graduate with a business degree. When I walked
• 27:53
  out of my partnership with a guy who was a business
• 27:56
  guy, When I was 35, I wasn't sure that I could
• 28:03
  even survive. My background is creative. And
• 28:08
  I tried to find a business partner that I thought
• 28:11
  I needed in order to continue work. Having a
• 28:14
  business in New York is not an easy thing to
• 28:17
  do. It's probably the most competitive city in
• 28:19
  the, if not the world, certainly the country.
• 28:23
  And just the fact that the network, benefits
• 28:27
  that I got, the results that I got as a result
• 28:30
  of the networking that I did, the fact that it
• 28:34
  enabled me to continue to have a successful business
• 28:38
  for as long as I did, which was about 20 years
• 28:41
  in New York City, I think was a real testament
• 28:46
  to the power of good networking. So that's one
• 28:50
  metric that I used. I also got a fair amount
• 28:53
  of press. I won some awards. I was invited to
• 29:01
  get speaking gigs at prestigious places like
• 29:03
  the World Business Academy and Yale University.
• 29:06
  Those were all, I think, metrics of the success
• 29:09
  that I had. Absolutely. Absolutely. Not to mention
• 29:14
  being invited to the White House and the UN.
• 29:16
  That I think is pretty big. Who was the president?
• 29:19
  So when I got invited, that was... In the dark
• 29:23
  ages, 1991, and George Bush I was the president
• 29:28
  back then. Yeah, I was in Desert Storm in 1991.
• 29:33
  Ah, okay. So that's what I was doing. Wow. What's
• 29:37
  the one piece of advice you'd give to someone
• 29:40
  looking to use public speaking to expand their
• 29:44
  professional network? One piece of advice for
• 29:49
  someone using public speaking. expand their professional
• 29:54
  network. I'm trying to think of a good answer
• 29:58
  to that, Michael, other than stealing a tagline
• 30:02
  from Nike, which is just do it. I think I say
• 30:06
  that because there's so much fear associated
• 30:09
  with public speaking. It's easy to talk yourself
• 30:14
  out of doing it. And as I'm sure you would agree,
• 30:19
  the more you do it, the more confidence you'll
• 30:23
  have in doing it and the better you'll get at
• 30:26
  it. So I would say just best advice is just get
• 30:31
  started, right? Because that's the hardest step.
• 30:34
  That's once you take that leap. And listen, also
• 30:38
  do what you need to develop your confidence.
• 30:41
  Here's a great piece of advice. Maybe you can
• 30:43
  appreciate it. You're familiar with Toastmasters,
• 30:45
  right? Sure. Yeah, okay. A lot of people aren't.
• 30:49
  And I wasn't when I was in my 20s. But Toastmasters,
• 30:52
  for anyone who doesn't know, is an international
• 30:55
  public speaking organization that's been around
• 30:58
  for, I don't know, 60 years at this point. And
• 31:02
  anyone can join it. They have one in every city.
• 31:06
  And it gives you an opportunity to practice your
• 31:10
  public speaking skills. So that's certainly one
• 31:13
  thing you can do to gain confidence. in public
• 31:16
  speaking, as well as, of course, hiring you,
• 31:19
  Michael. Absolutely. When I said for the podcasting,
• 31:24
  just get started, when I just got started, I
• 31:28
  did, of course, it was free then, but I just
• 31:32
  did it to practice what I was talking about.
• 31:35
  And I changed it every time. So eventually I
• 31:39
  did 50 or 75 speaking gigs, you know, for free.
• 31:44
  And people were ecstatic. They went, oh my God,
• 31:47
  this is free. It's wonderful. But then you start
• 31:49
  to charge and you charge a little bit more and
• 31:52
  more. Of course, I'm not up to the Tony Robbins
• 31:54
  stage yet, but you had to start somewhere. So
• 31:59
  that piece of advice of just do it. Just do it.
• 32:03
  Just get off your rear end and just start talking.
• 32:06
  Go to a chamber of commerce and begin your speaking
• 32:09
  career and see whether or not it's for you or
• 32:12
  not. But that's all great. That's great. One
• 32:14
  other thing I'll just add, Michael, is try to
• 32:16
  have fun with it. Do you know what I'm saying?
• 32:17
  Always have fun. If you stop having fun, get
• 32:21
  out of the business. OK, always have fun. Always
• 32:23
  have a good time. John, this was absolutely great
• 32:27
  because. We are very much alike. And I really
• 32:31
  enjoyed our conversation. If somebody wants to
• 32:34
  get hold of you, what's the best way that they
• 32:36
  can get hold of you? The simplest way, if they
• 32:40
  know how to spell my name, is to just pop me
• 32:42
  in Google, because I have been posting content
• 32:46
  on the Internet since the Internet began. In
• 32:50
  fact, one of the things I enjoy most is doing
• 32:52
  podcasts like this. I don't have to work, but
• 32:54
  I love talking about the business. I love having
• 32:56
  conversations with people like you, people all
• 32:59
  around the world. In the past couple of years,
• 33:02
  I've done, at this point, over 80 podcasts. So
• 33:05
  if anyone just pops my name, and the last name
• 33:09
  is F -O -L -L -I -S, first name John, on the
• 33:13
  internet, they'll see all kinds of stuff come
• 33:16
  up. Actually, I can't wait. I'm going to actually
• 33:19
  do that myself. John, thank you so much for coming
• 33:22
  on my podcast. I'm sure my listeners got a lot
• 33:25
  out of it. And I'll speak to you soon. Thanks,
• 33:30
  Michael. Great chatting with you. Well, hold
• 33:33
  on, folks. Don't go anywhere. Let me just read
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  -U -P -K -I -D -S .org. Well, that's a wrap,
• 34:52
  folks. A huge thank you to our special guests
• 34:55
  for sharing such incredible insights today. And
• 34:59
  of course, a big shout out to you, our amazing
• 35:02
  listeners, for tuning in and spending your time
• 35:05
  with us. Remember, networking isn't about being
• 35:09
  perfect. It's about being present. So take what
• 35:12
  you've learned today, get out there and make
• 35:15
  some meaningful connections. If you enjoyed this
• 35:18
  episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave us
• 35:21
  a review and share it with someone who could
• 35:23
  use a little networking inspiration. Let's keep
• 35:27
  the conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
• 35:30
  Spotify, YouTube or my website. Michael A. Foreman,
• 35:35
  remember, until next time, keep practicing, keep
• 35:39
  connecting, and keep building those relationships.
• 35:42
  This is Michael A. Foreman signing off. Take
• 35:45
  care and happy networking.