Latest / The Vocal Hack Podcast / #17 Special Guest: Kirsty Wolf
Transcript
- Joana Lisboa: Hello, every one. My name is Joana. Assumpta: And I'm Assumpta, and we welcome you back to the Vocal Hack Podcast, your podcast where we explore everything related to voice communication and human connection. Whether you speak on stage, presenting to clients, leading a meeting, or simply having an important conversation, we're here to help you communicate with more confidence and impact. Joana Lisboa: Today we're joined by the wonderful guest. She's an English trainer and facilitator of English conversation clubs for independent professionals. Every day she helps people communicate more confidently in English. Not by chasing perfection, but by building real communication skills. Welcome to the Vocal Hack, Kirsty. Kirsty: Thank you for w inviting me. It's really good to be here. Joana Lisboa: we're so happy to have you here. Let's start at the beginning. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you go from being an English trainer to work with independent professionals? Kirsty: Okay, well I always when I was when I was a child I wanted to be a teacher, but then I abandoned that idea because I thought it meant I'd have to work in a school with lots of small children, and that wasn't the the future I could see for myself. but then when I had done some other things, I worked in communications for a while, but I realized that what I was doing in my free time was actually a lot more fun and more rewarding than than what I was doing the rest of the time. So I decided to change. And in 2012 I started English with Kirsty, which at that time was language lessons, language training for adults. but over the last few years I discovered that some of the work that I most enjoyed and and saw the best results, to be honest, was working with independent professionals who want to communicate more confidently. and in English and be themselves because I think sometimes that's the part that we miss. We're so focused on, this has to be right if if you're working in a language that isn't your first language, that we can forget to be ourselves. And I think that is a really important part of the puzzle. And of course we don't want to make mistakes. I don't either but if you if you miss this part out then you're missing a real opportunity in terms of communication. Assumpta: I love hearing these kind of stories because especially as teachers, it's really hard to not focus on going for the most perfect result, but that you're actually helping people grow. And that brings me to a next question that I have, do you think people become a slightly different version of themselves when they speak in an an foreign language, another language that they learn later on in life? Kirsty: We do. I mean, I've certainly spoken with people and then I've spoken with them in their first language and thought, wow, you know, you're a lot more assertive than I thought you were, because they maybe didn't have the the same confidence to do that in English. And I know that's happened to me as well. I've been in when I was younger, I I've been in meetings in German where I could write quite but like the Kirsty to you who I am, but when I it was in a big room full of people and they were all listening to me, that was hard. so I think sometimes we do become a different version of ourselves to our detriment. It's it's not good because we hide parts of who we are, and that's what makes us us. But I think at the same time it's not always negative. Sometimes it can be more fun. We can be curious and explore parts of our personality in the other languages. So it doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it it can be a bad thing if it means that we're trying to hide parts of ourselves that that normally come out to play in our first language. Joana Lisboa: It's it's funny because it's something that we also see all the time in vocal coaching. But people often tell us I don't sound like me in English. sometimes Kirsty: Mm. Joana Lisboa: they know exactly what they want to say, but somehow it doesn't come out naturally. something that happens. Kirsty: Yeah, I I do Assumpta: Yeah and Kirsty: that in Portuguese too. I can imagine that you have that problem because people I I guess it's like habits that we don't normally have. If we're quite confident speaking normally, and then you go into another language and you're not as sure of the words, that affects how you use your voice as well. It's not just the words that you choose. It's like, I don't know about this, head down, not sure. And then Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Kirsty: and then it affects how your voice comes out and it makes you sound less sure about your message. Assumpta: It's it's so great that you say that because I think that's exactly what we always say as well. It's not necessarily about the vocabulary, but about the habits and that this is a massive part of of speaking just confidently in a different language. I would love to hear your opinion on something, because what in your opinion are like the communication habits that separate a confident speaker from someone that Still struggles with it. Kirsty: I think the confident speakers take the time to invest in themselves. So whether that is in speaking in other situations, whether that is getting some training if there's an area that you need help with, I think sometimes people have not so good experiences when they try to build confidence when it's really important. So if you've got an important meeting or if you're speaking. in front of a lot of colleagues or you're trying to get a new client, like the worst place to try and build that confidence is there. It's it's better to do some activities that that help you to feel more comfortable. Obviously the only way you can get more confident in doing those kind of activities is doing those kind of activities, but I think sometimes people sabotage themselves Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Kirsty: by not taking those smaller steps first to get them to where they want to be. then they try to do a client call or a presentation without preparing as well as they could have. And then maybe it doesn't go so well. And then they think, okay, I can't do that. It's too hard. So I think sometimes the Assumpta: Yeah. Kirsty: the confident people are the people who actually know what they struggle with because then they can do something to to fix it. If you can reflect on yourself and where you maybe need help, then you can do something about that. But If you don't and you just think, it'll be okay, sometimes it will, and that's great. Sometimes it won't, because you didn't invest in yourself and in giving yourself the best possible chance. Because I don't believe that confident people are just, like this is a confident person, this is not a confident person, we can't change that. Some people are naturally more confident, but I believe, especially if we're talking about working in other languages, well, there's a lot that we can do to give ourselves a better chance of having the outcome that we want. Joana Lisboa: That makes so much sense. It's really a collection of small habits rather than one big tell. We we don't start speaking just a big meeting, you know, like you said. and have small practices, it's it makes so much sense. In vocal coaching is the same. So we have this same method. That we also use, and it really complements each other, Assumpta: feel like I'm listening to my own advice, Kirsty. It's amazing. Kirsty: Ha ha ha ha. Joana Lisboa: Yeah. So let's talk specifically about independent workers and freelancers. Many are experts in their field, but they still hesitate when they need to introduce themselves, speech an idea or networking in English. So in your opinion, what's one communication mistake that you see freelancers making over and over again? Kirsty: I think sometimes it is about adapting the message. So you know who you are, but this message is different depending on whether you're talking to peer who's doing something similar, client who might want your services, somebody who knows nothing about your industry, a child, explain to a five year old what you Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Kirsty: do, and then you can see whether you really understand it. so I think it's sometimes A lot of the people that I work with have worked in a very specific way. I know this won't be relevant to all of your listeners, but they were perhaps working with agencies and are now looking for direct clients. And that's a very different situation because they need to give different information. you can't assume that people that know less about the industry understand things that maybe an agency does. it's about being Able to adapt your message spontaneously to whomever is listening. so you can't just learn a script like I am Kirsty and this is what I do, because every time I talk about that, it's slightly different depending on who's listening. And I think it's having the flexibility to not just think this is a one-time job I I present myself, but to think, okay, what's most relevant here about what I do? Obviously, it's not going to change so much, but how much. Explanation you give will change and what's going to be interesting for your audience will also change. So to just having the confidence and flexibility to be able to do that is a really good tool to have. Assumpta: Would you say that more the listening actually what kind of audience you're talking to important to adapt your messaging the way you speak to them? Because I think if you enter a room and you don't know who who you're actually talking to, you need to kind of assess that first before you even start talking. Kirsty: Yeah, I mean a lot of the people who say that they want to become better speakers also need to become better listeners because you can pick up a lot of cues, like you could do research on if you know that you're going to speak with certain people, you could maybe find out a bit more about them. But you can pick up on so much if you're not so focused on you and what you're gonna say, but also listening to the the conversations around you and what other people are saying, how they're relating to each other. I think there's so much information that sometimes gets missed because we're focusing on what we're going to say. And actually the listening, active listening part is is also really important so that you can give your message the best chance to land well. Joana Lisboa: when you facilitate conversation clubs What do you think people develop there? and that is good for daily lives? What what do you think you add to those people? Kirsty: I think for the clubs for freelancers, we have a maximum of six people in in each group. So what they're developing is the confidence to make mistakes in a way, but also to share their ideas because we have a topic every time. it could be a small presentation followed by a discussion about that, or it could be a series of questions that I prepared on a business-related topic. And it's Having the chance to express ideas in English and to have discussions with others, but those people are not your colleagues. So it's I guess building a safe environment for people to talk about topics that they will need to speak about with others, but in in a way where they can get feedback, they can ask questions and they can take risks with language because sometimes if we play it safe, we create language that is good and and without mistakes, but it's maybe not everything we wanted to say. And I know I've done that. So if we can find a place where we feel comfortable to to try out a more complicated language construction or a more complicated idea and build our confidence there, then it will be easier when we have to do that in in real situations that are related to our business in some way. Joana Lisboa: I've been to your conversation club and I just I Kirsty: Yay. Joana Lisboa: just loved i it was exactly what you described right now. I just felt very comfortable and and okay to make mistakes. I I I thought I was one of the weakest, but I felt comfortable. to just participate and just being there, Assumpta: Okay. Kirsty: I wouldn't say you're one of the weakest, but I I'm really glad that you felt comfortable because I think that's important. If we if we feel stressed, if we feel uptight, then we're not gonna say all the things we want to say or have the confidence to try and and that's why it's so important that that people do feel good, because otherwise they will feel like they're at a job interview or something. And you know, that's not the kind of environment I want to create. Joana Lisboa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I really advise people if they looking for a conversation club in English, they should try out with Kirsty because it's amazing. Kirsty: Thank you. Assumpta: I have a question to something that you said earlier, you said a lot of times people have to invest in themselves to actually become more confident in speaking. And I think a lot of listeners may recognize themselves in that because life is busy and improving communication gets like pushed to the bottom of the to-do list because There's always something to do. So here like a practical question for you. If someone had only one hour a week to improve their English, how would you recommend they spend this hour? Kirsty: I think that's really interesting what you said, because whether it's talking about language skills or vocal training, it's really hard to to measure the return on investment. You know, like if you do an ad on a social media platform, you can see how many clicks did it lead to something. But with something like how well you communicate, then it's a lot harder to to measure that because some of it is in missed opportunities or opportunities you didn't go for. So I understand how these things can get pushed to the to the bottom of the to-do list. And when I say invest, it doesn't necessarily mean financial investment. It can, because I know all of us offer services, but it can also be time. And I think time investment is one of the hardest sometimes because we we have so little of it. But one hour a week, I would say before you start thinking about what you're going to do, then you should ask yourself why, why you want to invest in your English. or whichever language, because that will shape what you do. Is it is it that you need to to meet with others? Is it that you need to have some training for a specific area? Is it that you need to get out of your comfort zone and join, I don't know, a a public speaking group I know Joana is involved in Toastmasters, so it's something like that. Is it that you need to develop your vocabulary in a certain area? Or is it that you just need to to push yourself out of your comfort zone and speak with some people because I I do that with Portuguese now. I have a couple of people that that speak with me regularly. It's in addition to my language course that I'm doing. But I know that if I hadn't if I say to someone, okay, I'm gonna meet you tomorrow at eleven o'clock and then we do it, then I will do it. But if I say, yeah, I should do that, I should speak to someone and I'm never gonna do it. So I think it means if you have one hour, decide what you want to achieve. And what improvement looks like for you, because it's going to be different for everyone else. And then commit to something, ideally with someone else, because then you feel really bad about letting them down. And then you don't do it. You keep you keep to what you've agreed. but be specific about what you want to do, even if it is very little time, and it doesn't have to be the same thing every week. If you've got only one hour a week, you could do like one week one thing, another week something else, but have a plan. And make that plan link to what you actually want to achieve because improving your English or me improving my Portuguese is very, very broad and it's kind of hard to succeed if if you don't know what it means beyond that. So I would say start with a really specific goal and then take a step that will help you to get a bit closer to to reaching it. Joana Lisboa: So how many languages do you speak, Kirsty? Kirsty: well English and then I've started and stopped some others, but my my others really are German, Romanian and Portuguese in that order of fluency. Joana Lisboa: All very different from each other. No? Yeah. Okay. Kirsty: But I think that's why Romanian and Portuguese are closer, but I I think that's why I can understand some of the challenges of my clients better, because they some of them are my challenges. Joana Lisboa: It's Kirsty: I'm not talking about something that I'm completely detached from. okay, everybody has different different challenges and some people have problems that that I don't, but I I think if it's people that are feeling a bit more self-conscious or a bit more hesitant to speak. than then I certainly know that. But I also know that it gets better because I believe we never stop learning. So if we can forget this idea that we're gonna one day feel there's nothing more to learn. I mean that's kind of arrogant. So it's good not to think that anyway, but like with every language there's more to learn. But I do know that now I'm I have some some meetings in German and sometimes it's it's definitely more challenging than in English. but I can see that because of these languages are at different levels, then the more you Feel confident you can try more challenging things. if you start a new language, you may be back to the beginning and have to learn all this stuff again. But I I do see where it goes from there and that you can begin to enjoy it because I think having another language is a is a great thing. It means you can have conversations that you couldn't have had before and speak with people. Even if people speak your first language, speaking with them in their languages is a different communication style, it's a different conversation. And so sometimes I think we should just, you know, celebrate this a bit more if we have these opportunities to to use other languages. Joana Lisboa: Yeah, makes so much sense. Assumpta do you want to talk about your story about English? Because it's so amazing. I re I really think our listeners would love to hear about it. Assumpta: Okay, I think I can, yes, of course. I think what Kirsty said I can relate to a lot because I struggled with my English growing up. I had a teacher in fifth grade who basically told me that I'm not good in English. and the worst part was we were in the middle of class and she said, Assumpta please come in front of the door with me. And she told me in the middle of class. that I'm not good with languages and that I should think about changing school because next year I'm gonna get another Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Assumpta: language and I'm not gonna be able to keep up. And then she sent me back into class and I was like trying not to cry, of course, because in fifth grade, how old are you? Like nine, ten. and it made me very, very self conscious about talking in English and speaking to other people in English because I always assumed I'm not good in learning languages. And because I always had more of an affinity to numbers, I think math is really logical, always made sense to me. So I thought naturally, because I have that for math, I must be then bad in languages, because she also said it. And I'm very glad that even she said that I always traveled a lot and then I Studied my master in the US and while I was going through the whole notion of applying for everything, doing the TOEFL test and whatsoever, I like, How am I doing this? She said I'm not good in it in languages. Like, Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Assumpta: why am I doing this? I'm gonna fail horribly. And I have to say, like the Joana Lisboa: And you didn't. Assumpta: I didn't, but I have to say the first couple of months in America, of course, were really, really challenging because I just noticed how quickly my brain got fatigued and you still have to get going and the day's not over. But my brain was dead at like three PM. But now speak it with no problems. I dream in English. I write in English most of the time. journal in English. So it is such a difference to That child when I was f like 10 years old. But I just want that to be a story for people, even if people told you something about yourself or you told yourself something about yourself, it is not always the truth. And it is a very, very limiting thing if you just take what someone else said about you, or what don't know, you told yourself often enough as the truth instead of like just trying to explore it anyways and see what happens. Because now most people that meet me think English was one of my mother tongues growing up and it's not. And it's very much something I worked hard for. And I think that's why I'm a big believer in like you can learn language at any age. You can improve your speaking at any age and Joana Lisboa: Yes. Assumpta: it is not depending on anything that you've had before in your life. Joana Lisboa: Did you find many people like this that like Assumpta that had this belief because someone told them they were not good? Kirsty: yeah, I think teachers have a lot of responsibility, especially if you're working in a school, like a comment like that, that just could have done a lot of damage. And I'm really glad to see that you ignored her and you went and did your own thing. I think I find people who maybe didn't enjoy the experience of language learning at school, because that that experience was quite extreme. Someone telling you you can't do it, but I think some people have said like They didn't enjoy, there was a lot of grammar worksheets and the information wasn't presented in a way that really made sense for them. I mean, that happened to me with maths. I I never enjoyed maths at school. I did okay, but it wasn't one of my best subjects. And now when I see information presented in a different way that makes sense to me, I think, actually I can do this. So sometimes I think it's easy for us to say this subject is hard or this subject is not for me because we had a bad experience with it but there are so many factors there's the teacher there's the teaching method there's who you are because maybe you've changed so much you know if Assumpta: Yeah. Kirsty: you could you could try again and I think we shouldn't just dismiss things once that that was a a bad experience and I think it's good to be honest about if we had a bad experience and not pretend it was okay but now we have so many options for learning online in groups one-to-one. A lot of what I do is is one-to-one because I have like a mentoring program and I have a a small group program for freelance translators, and I have a public speaking program because a lot of the time people do feel quite self-conscious, maybe because they didn't enjoy speaking in front of the whole class when they were at school, so they do prefer working one-to-one. Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Kirsty: And I think it's about figuring out I said earlier about what what you want to learn, what you want to improve, but also figuring out what works for you. Because as an adult, we can do that. We can make the choices, whether it's paid or or unpaid, but like what environment is gonna bring the best out in you and and what would help you to to to learn? Because sometimes a big school class with I don't know, 20, 30 pupils in the group puts a lot more pressure on than one-to-one session or something in a smaller group. So we can We can choose how we learn it as adults and that's a a freedom of adult learning. Joana Lisboa: Yes. Kirsty, before we finish, we'd like you to leave our listeners one final thought. If you could give every independent worker one communication superpower, what would it be? Kirsty: superpower. I would say be yourself. So this is going back to this thing about it's not always this whole question about, is this right, is this wrong, is this what people expect me to be? is this how I should be communicating? Because if you're yourself, then I think that is that is powerful. And that doesn't mean that you can just be lazy about like, I'm like this, you have to deal with it. I I think we should always Assumpta: Anyway. Kirsty: keep learning and trying to improve ourselves. And I think if we're doing any kind of speaking that then we need to prepare. But people make connections with people. So your content has to be good, otherwise, you know, you're not going to keep the audience's attention. But ultimately, think if we can be ourselves, then we have a much better Assumpta: That's a good idea. Kirsty: chance of of connecting and making meaningful relationships with our listeners than if we're focusing so much on not making any mistakes. Assumpta: This is the perfect answer. You don't you didn't Kirsty: Ha ha ha. Assumpta: we were cheering here for you because this is literally the perfect answer and the best end to this because it ties beautifully in what we often say on this podcast in our lessons and our workshops, because communication isn't about sounding perfect, but it is about like creating these genuine connections with the other people in the audience. And you just summed that up the best way I could have ever wished for. Kirsty: thank you. Joana Lisboa: Yeah, it was Kirsty, thank you so much for joining us today. It was amazing. I we really have some bridges between our our work. It's always funny to understand that. There's a lot of people doing kind of the same work but with different aspects, like with you Kirsty: Well Joana Lisboa: with English and the other languages and we are with the voice. But we are kind of working together like a community to help people Kirsty: Mm. Joana Lisboa: to transform themselves to be themselves and it's something that is I think it's very important for the world. More and more Kirsty: Yeah, definitely. Joana Lisboa: people join this community of people that like to help other people to transform themselves. So how how can people find you? and find more about your work and where where can they reach you? Kirsty: And they can go to my website, which is EnglishwithKirsty.com. They can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Kirsty Danielle Wolf. There aren't many, I don't there are any more Kirsty Daniel Wolfs on LinkedIn. So that's the Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Kirsty: main platform that I use. And I have the English with Kirsty podcast as well. in fact, Joana was a guest on the English with Kirsty podcast. If you want to find out more about what we talked about in our conversation, then come and come and find that. Joana Lisboa: Yeah, we can cross Assumpta: This is great. I we will also put the links into the description of the episode so they can find it there. And if you listeners enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and share this episode with someone who'd love to hear about this too. Every share helps us reach more people who want to communicate with confidence and make a greater impact. Joana Lisboa: Thank you so much for listening. Remember, your voice isn't just something people hear. It's something they remember. So be aware of it. See you next time on the vocal hack. Bye. Assumpta: Bye, have a good week.