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Keeping Your Legal Costs Down in Divorce · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate the podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartel, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there in soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Wurundri people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in the last episode, I spoke about the cost of divorce, but really with regard to what it costs you to stay, if you're staying in an unhappy, loveless, disconnected relationship or marriage.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're going a little bit more tangible and we are actually going to talk about the cost of divorce and how to keep your legal costs down or ways to divorce with less expense.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, divorce itself is actually quite easy and very simple.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Fill out some forms, submit them to court, voila, divorce granted.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: But for most of us, when we're talking about divorce, what we're really talking about is the negotiations around money, around property, and around childcare arrangements that happen as part of the process, as part of getting to divorce.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: The divorce itself is just legal paperwork, it's the end point.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a filing fee to pay the court to lodge a divorce application, which last time I checked was$930.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So actually getting divorced technically is pretty cheap, but that cost only covers what you need to terminate to do to legally terminate your marriage.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And where divorce actually gets expensive is in coming to an agreement, or probably more precisely, when you can't agree.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the first option is DIY.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: You sit around the kitchen table, you work things out together, and this is probably most appropriate in situations where you don't hold major assets, you don't have kids.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are even online options where consent orders are drafted and submitted to the court and divorce applied for, all pretty easily done and pretty quickly.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: That is one option.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Probably the next step up from that is formal mediation, a supported conversation between you and your soon-to-be-ex-partner, which is facilitated by a trained professional, a mediator, a family dispute resolution practitioner.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: They are skilled at bringing the two of you to agreement.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: They don't sit with one or other of you, they work to bring the two of you together to agreement.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's usually best, usually, not always, but it's usually best, in my opinion, if you also have some legal advice as well as mediation.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you know what your rights and your options and your obligations are.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: You maybe even have some coaching, of course I'm gonna say that, to work out your wants and your needs, where you're willing to compromise and what's absolutely non-negotiable before you go into mediation.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you're clear, you're clear about the process, you're also clear about really what your rights are legally and financially.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Next step up from that is a collaborative law process, which is a team-based approach where both of you have independent legal representation, and both lawyers in a collaborative law case sign an agreement stating their commitment to settling the case without ever going to court.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Collaborative law is a team model which will also involve often a psychologist, definitely a financial, an independent financial advisor who works for both of you and can help you look at options that you might not have considered in terms of financial arrangements between the two of you.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: The next step up is lawyer-assisted settlement where your lawyer really works with your spouse's lawyer.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So your lawyer is working with you, your ex-partner's lawyer is working with them, and the lawyers kind of talk to each other to try and nut it out.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, there's litigation or court-based settlement solutions.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is the last option if you simply cannot agree, or there are absolute barriers to you being able to safely engage and discuss things with your ex-partner.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's it cost if you do need legal representation?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the lowest you might pay is around about$300 an hour for a junior lawyer.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, these are Melbourne prices, and in some other cities, Sydney, um they are they're higher.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So these are real, really rough ballpark figures.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So about$300 for a junior lawyer, someone who maybe has a couple of years' experience.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you're engaging with the principal of the law firm, someone with a lot of experience, you could pay$600 an hour or more.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the best the best estimate I could find is according to Money Magazine, if you're going through court, the average cost is between$50 and$100,000 each and can take up to three years.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now that data was from 2017.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna guess that recording this in 2023, it's likely higher than that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So keeping yourselves out of court is the one best way to save money.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: There are other expenses involved in property, financial settlement that you might not have considered, real estate or business valuations.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And a client of mine recently had a private family report done for a child caring agreement between her and her ex, and that family report cost six and a half thousand dollars, which is split between the two of them.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there are other expenses if things are getting or are challenging between the two of you.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So some tips to keep your costs down.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Number one is negotiate directly with each other if you can, if it's safe, if it's appropriate, and then perhaps get a lawyer in to do consent orders to submit to the court to formal formalise what you've agreed.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not possible or advisable for every separating couple, but it is the cheapest way.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you head down this way, find one thing you can agree on and work from there.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Work out what you're willing to compromise on, or do this in a supported space like mediation.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pretty rare couple who can do all of this completely without support.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're making major life decisions with really long-term and significant impacts around kids and money, property, often while in a highly emotional, activated state.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not always a great combination for making clear objective decisions.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you're not always in your clearest headspace.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So mostly I recommend clients have at least some professional support to help them through the process.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, choose an expert.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you choose a specialist family lawyer or law firm.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: They will have expert knowledge and experience and get the job done faster, which of course means it's cheaper for you.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: A larger law firm will also have junior, junior staff who will do some of the work, which is charging you charging you less than if a senior lawyer did it all for you.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: But bigger is not always better, it's about engaging someone experienced enough to get the job done and done well first time around and in a timely manner.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So bigger's not always better, but an experienced family lawyer will help you keep your costs down by giving you the right advice, even if it's not exactly what you want to hear.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: They'll give you the right advice from the start.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: They've seen it all and done it all before, and they'll also spend less time researching doing the back work because their experience means they don't need to do that.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So choose someone who is experienced and specialized and who you think you can trust to get the job done for you.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Number three is to choose the cost agreement that works best for you.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some lawyers will charge fixed fee and some will will use a time costing.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And whichever you choose, make sure you understand exactly how you will be charged so you can maximize output for expense.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So time costing is one way where the lawyer's rate is charged at a certain amount per hour, and you'll be charged in set increments, for example, six-minute increments.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if your lawyer costs$400 an hour, that's$6.60 a minute, which is$40 per six-minute increment.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you speak to them for 20 minutes, you'll be charged for four increments.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: 24 minutes, total cost$160.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So time costing means you pay for every meeting, every phone call, every email, depending on how long it takes.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Fixed fee, on the other hand, is where a lawyer charges you a fixed amount for a set block of work that they do.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you pay one fee for the work they've quoted you.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter how many times you email or speak to them or message them, you'll still be charged that same amount.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is becoming more and more common in the family law space.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And experienced lawyer family lawyers are able to do this, offer fixed fees because they they've done it before.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: They know approximately how long things would things will take and what will cost, so they can give you a fixed quote.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So choose whichever model suits you and your unique circumstances best.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: It will help you minimize your outlay.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: The next tip I have for you is to be organized, especially with time-costing agreement.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to pay for every single interaction, every engagement with your lawyer, every email, phone, phone call, message, and every meeting.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So be organized.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Get requested documents to your lawyer quickly and in an organized sort of way.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it clear and simple so they don't spend time trawling through pages of stuff to find what they need.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Lawyers I speak with say a disorganized client, someone who only gives them part of what they ask for, or gives it at the very last minute, or provides it in a way that's difficult to read through, is a key sticking point or issue for them.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So make your lawyer's job as easy and as fast as you can by being organized.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to save you money.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Also, consolidate your communication, whether that's a phone call or an email.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Think about what you need to ask, what you need to communicate, and do it.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get in, get it done, get out.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Dot points are really great for email communication.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So keep it short and sweet to the point so that your lawyer knows exactly what you're looking for, what you're looking for or asking for from them, or you're giving exactly what they need.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Tip number five is to tell the whole story.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Be open, be honest.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Give all of the information your lawyer might need, even if it's stuff that you don't really want to share.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's likely to come out at some stage.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So give them all the information you think they could possibly need up front.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be tempted to hide stuff, even if it might paint you in a less glowing kind of light.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: If new information comes up at a later stage, it means more work for your lawyer, which ultimately makes things more expensive for you.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: They might have to amend advice they've already given you because of this new information.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: They will likely have to go back and forth with your ex's lawyer to update things.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So being upfront from the beginning, fully disclosing, will actually save you in the long run.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tip number six is be responsive.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So be prepared and be ready to listen to what your expert family lawyer says.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: They are actually the expert.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now I will always advocate that you are the expert on your on your life 100%.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've engaged an expert, someone that you trust, someone that's been recommended, then be ready to act on the advice they give you and in a timely fashion.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Your procrastination or your indecisiveness is going to cost you money.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Things can change really quickly in family law matters, and there are crash points where time really is important.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's of the essence.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to be ready to act on what your lawyer is telling you, telling you.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, don't make them chase you.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: It will just cost you money.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Procrastination really can be your enemy here because it makes things expensive.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've chosen an experienced lawyer, someone that you trust, then when they give you advice, you can trust that advice and you can act accordingly.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Tip number six, remember that your lawyer is not your therapist.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you are highly emotional in interactions with your lawyer, ringing, emailing, messaging them for issues or reasons that are not legal, it's costing you money.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Your lawyer is not a trained coach or counsellor or therapist.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And while they will listen and may be able to support you through the emotional aspects of divorce, it's not their zone of genius.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this is another frustration I hear from lawyers a lot that they have volatile clients who are constantly ringing and bringing issues to them that are not legal issues.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're expected to deal with highly reactive and emotional clients, which is outside of their zone of genius, outside of their training.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lawyers advise on legal stuff, not emotional issues.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And while they will listen, they will also charge you for their time and not necessarily give you the best support or advice in this space.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So to minimize your legal fees, manage your emotions, manage your overwhelm, your indecision, dial down your reactivity so you're not calling the lawyer every time you become activated by something your ex did or said or emailed to you.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And allow your lawyer to do what they are best at the legal stuff.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Allow them to focus their attention and their time there because time is money.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this is exactly where I fit.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: This space is where co this is where coaching sits.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Emotions.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: I support my clients to dial down high emotions, to manage their reactivity.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: They feel fully supported so that they can make clear objective decisions that support the vision that they have for their future.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we do a lot of work on nervous system regulation.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: We do a lot of work on managing high emotions.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I become their sounding board, not the lawyer.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I also help my clients be organized with documentation and dates, all the things that the lawyer wants and needs.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I support my clients to sift through all the communication, yes, from the lawyer, the legal team, but also from their ex, and we work out what's most important and what's just noise, what really needs a response and what needs to be on sent to the lawyer, and what's just that, what's just noise.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: My clients are also realistic and open.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're open-minded, they know their wants and their needs, and they understand the difference between what is a want and what is actually a need.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: They also know their drop-dead non-negotiables and those spaces and places where they're willing to compromise.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Coaching clients are solutions-oriented.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: They they have the attitude of right, let's get this done quickly and in a way that supports us all to move forward.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're looking for ways to move forward because I've worked with them to outline what they want in their future and they're supported to take steps that move them towards that future.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And unlike fortnightly sessions with a therapist, I'm right in there with my clients with between session support.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on speed dial, literally in their back pocket to help troubleshoot or talk you off the ledge or to listen to the rant about what the ex has or hasn't done, and then we work out what we do about it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So having that back pocket support really helps ease the reliance on the lawyer to hold that space for my clients, but also it helps keep their cost keep their costs down, their legal costs down.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think my final tip in keeping your legal costs down is to really be clear on what is an outcome that you would be comfortable with.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Be really clear and open to other ways of looking at it or solving the problem that is your property settlement or your child caring arrangements, whatever it is that's your sticking point.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Be open-minded and look for a third alternative.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you want X and he or she wants Y, what's something in the middle?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's a third alternative that just might work for your family?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Be creative, think outside the box.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to look like everybody else's separation, divorce.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: What will work for you and your family and your unique circumstances?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And mostly think about things in two, five, ten, even twenty years' time.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Be focused on that as your outcome, not on winning or losing.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Be focused on that future point.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Two, five, ten, twenty years' time.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do you want your life to look and feel?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you focus there, I can guarantee you you will help to minimize your legal costs.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found these tips helpful and supportive.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you know someone who is thinking about separating, thinking about divorce, or even in the messy middle of it, and you think this would support them, please share it with them.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would also really love it if you would rate and review the podcast.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: It helps get it in the ears of a whole lot of other people who just might need to hear it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you, all of you, every one of you, for your messages and your kind words about the podcast.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: They really mean a lot to me.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Until then