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Therapy? Just Say Alhamdulillah! · Obnoxiously Pleasant

• 0:00
  Hanan: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Obnoxiously Pleasant.
• 0:04
  Hanan: As you can see, we're in a different space today, but I'm Hanan.
• 0:07
  Hanan: I'm Lina.
• 0:07
  Hanan: And today we have a very special guest for you guys.
• 0:09
  Hanan: We have been waiting to do this episode for a really long time.
• 0:13
  Hanan: This is my friend Sarah.
• 0:14
  Hanan: Sahabit Doctora.
• 0:16
  Hanan: Sahabit Doctora.
• 0:17
  Hanan: Um Sara is a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 0:22
  Hanan: Which means everybody to in today's episode is getting a free therapy lesson.
• 0:25
  Lina: I don't know about that.
• 0:26
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 0:26
  Hanan: Well, actually.
• 0:28
  Hanan: Free therapy session.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but I should probably clarify that this is this isn't free therapy.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think we could say that casually, but really um I was joking.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I know, I know, I know.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe like the disclaimer is important because I think there's like a lot of um mystery maybe around relationships with your therapist and the boundaries around that.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, my I see my role here as kind of helping um with talking about mental health and our community in general and see whatever is on your mind and what questions you guys have for me.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but just to note, like me and Hannan are friends.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I will, she will never be my client.
• 1:10
  Hanan: I will never be her therapist.
• 1:12
  Hanan: It makes me really sad, you guys.
• 1:13
  Hanan: It makes me really sad.
• 1:14
  Hanan: Castara's awesome, but she's a wonderful friend.
• 1:16
  Hanan: So free therapy for me either way.
• 1:18
  Hanan: Yes.
• 1:19
  Hanan: I have a regular therapist, but it's just this is different.
• 1:22
  Hanan: She's friendly advice rather rather than actually like going through therapy.
• 1:26
  Hanan: But go ahead.
• 1:27
  Hanan: Yeah, but there is but there is that overlap.
• 1:28
  Lina: So I'm saying there is yes.
• 1:31
  Lina: Okay, so what what inspired you to get into this field to become a therapist?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's a really good question.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I um I have like an interesting immigration experience with like going back and forth to Egypt.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: My parents are both Egyptians.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think like I was on the one-track mind of I have to be a medical doctor.
• 1:54
  Lina: Okay.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of yeah, it was so that's kind of like the um the influence that I had growing up culturally from my parents who valued education a lot.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and after I finished undergrad, the crisis for my mom was that I didn't know what I was gonna do next in terms of graduate school because I had changed my mind about medical school.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so she actually took me to a psychiatrist.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um Wow.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know that she took you to the show.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: She totally took a child.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so wait a second, he was a Palestinian psychiatrist too, which is kind of weird.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because she didn't know what she was gonna do.
• 2:28
  Lina: Yeah, is it because you didn't know what you were gonna do or because you decided not to be like a medical like a yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was really I I was very like um headstrong about like my position for so long.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden I was like, nope, not doing this uh dental school.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Dental school was actually one of the your mom was like vintigenic of the something.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: She has lost her my daughter's lost her mind.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, actually, I think it was like like she kind of break broke through some of the stereotypical, like because at the time this was like what 20, 25 years ago.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so she broke through some of that.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Her friend had gone to therapy because she was grieving the loss of her dad, and she told her there's this really good therapist.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, Yeah, you should go, you know, this seems like a pretty big crisis for you to figure out.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was pretty forward thinking, like comfort.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is really forward thinking, actually.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think she got to experience, like, first of all, he was Palestinian, and I think for my mom that was like like a big comfort thing.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because her yeah.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, her being an immigrant, I think she was probably worried about, you know, uh inf Western influences, and um, because that was probably part of my identity crisis at the time.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So of course, yeah.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I decided so I knew I was gonna be a therapist, like, or I wanted to be a therapist at age eight eighteen and then solidified at age twenty two.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And also figuring out my own family drama and my own, like uh I was really interested in the journey and thinking about my family in terms of like systems and um and so it kind of it worked.
• 4:09
  Hanan: I love that you built your decision to become a therapist.
• 4:13
  Hanan: Of I mean, obviously I figured it would be based on your own like life experience and your own needs, wants, desires.
• 4:19
  Hanan: But um, I love that a lot of this had to do with, like you said, you figuring out like the journey, like my own family, my own crisis, or my thought process or who I am as a person.
• 4:30
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 4:30
  Hanan: And I love that, because you know, we're all like third culture kids, right?
• 4:34
  Hanan: Yes.
• 4:34
  Hanan: We all of us, all three of us.
• 4:36
  Hanan: Lina's like, I don't know about this.
• 4:37
  Hanan: I'm not, you are.
• 4:39
  Hanan: In some capacity, in some capacity, we're all third culture kids.
• 4:42
  Hanan: And I think it's wonderful to have somebody like I don't know, who kind of understands the the the both worlds.
• 4:49
  Hanan: Yes.
• 4:49
  Hanan: Going to like I what a lot of the folks in my realm I will say struggle with when it comes to therapy is having somebody that they can identify with or understands where they come from without having to explain so much of the background and why I may have trauma or not have trauma, or you know, why why certain things that like we joke about certain things that would actually be traumatic, like right?
• 5:14
  Hanan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:16
  Hanan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:16
  Hanan: But I think that that's important.
• 5:18
  Lina: Well, I just wanted to ask, like, you know, um, in our culture, you brought up culture, in our culture, I feel like therapy is still very taboo.
• 5:26
  Lina: Okay.
• 5:27
  Lina: Um, do you think that's changed over time?
• 5:29
  Lina: Has it gotten less taboo?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I'm not really sure because I guess from my experience, there are like a lot of factors that go into that.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think depending on whether a family has gone through like a major mental health crisis, then they go towards therapy in a way that's not taboo because they recognize, you know, that's like on a high spectrum kind of level.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: They recognize the importance and that it's it is, I think it's it's such an extreme presentation when someone is having like, you know, psychotic symptoms or something like that, um, that they seek out mental health and it no longer becomes a taboo.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess sometimes it does because it's still a taboo, I'm not sure.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but when it comes to like depression and anxiety, I think a lot of people, like you were saying earlier, it's like go towards faith or go towards friends or go towards community.
• 6:23
  Hanan: And I wanted to actually ask you, I'm I'm glad that you answered that question, right?
• 6:26
  Hanan: Specifically about faith.
• 6:27
  Hanan: Because so I did this thing where I went and asked folks in my life who I know are like, I don't want to use the word anti-therapy, but that's not something that they would ever seek.
• 6:35
  Hanan: Whereas I feel it would be very helpful for them.
• 6:38
  Hanan: And that's one of the narratives or themes that I actually found across the questions is a lot of people are like, well, my faith is very solid.
• 6:45
  Hanan: Like I feel like it's just me and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and as long as I have Allah, I don't need anything else.
• 6:50
  Hanan: And I and I feel like when I get it.
• 6:54
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 6:54
  Hanan: But I don't know.
• 6:55
  Hanan: Can you talk to me a little bit about why you should still like why does it I don't, I just want to say, like, my are like one of my own selfish personal goals in doing this is to have whoever is watching understand that if you're like on the edge of seeking therapy or not seeking therapy, or if this is something that you're toying the eye, like it's okay.
• 7:13
  Hanan: Like make it comfortable, make it normal.
• 7:15
  Hanan: Like there's nothing wrong with you if you want to go and seek this.
• 7:19
  Hanan: So I'm gonna go through all of the themes that I've heard.
• 7:22
  Hanan: Awesome.
• 7:22
  Hanan: And I'm gonna ask Sarah to address some of them because I feel like there's nothing wrong with that.
• 7:27
  Hanan: Okay.
• 7:27
  Hanan: But yeah, tell me a little bit about like why doesn't it?
• 7:29
  Hanan: It doesn't make your I don't know, I don't feel like it makes your faith any less.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I mean I think there's like a historical and cultural like context that goes into that, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like therapy can be looked at, you know, if you focus on it from a medical model, right?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's the DSM and labels and diagnoses and who wants to, you know, it it is it is a very like the biomedical model is very Western.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of like our own community's cultural understanding of these stigmas comes from that, and it makes sense to me, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is um, it is um, I think it like it it definitely influences the way people think about therapy because they don't really know what it is, maybe, or maybe they think it is in competition of their faith, or um, or they have to pick one or the other, or and maybe the people that have faith working for them 100% and they don't feel like they need therapy, there's nothing wrong with that either.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just try not to like impose what's working for you on other people, just because your relationship with God has been healing enough to allow you to function in a way that you're happy with, uh, great.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that might not be somebody else's circumstances.
• 8:48
  Hanan: And that's kind of like the that's kind of the gray area, I feel like a lot of times, because a lot of times people are like, no, if you just prayed more, salie.
• 8:56
  Hanan: Yeah, rabbina.
• 8:58
  Hanan: And I'm like, yes, that works, but sometimes, like, yeah, I don't know.
• 9:01
  Hanan: Sometimes I need more than just to, and I'm not saying like, like, I don't want anybody to think that, like, oh, I don't feel like that works.
• 9:07
  Hanan: No, there is some semblance of like reprieve or relief that you get from having a relationship with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, but at the same time, I feel like sometimes your anxiety is so overwhelming that you need to be medicated.
• 9:19
  Hanan: Like, I don't know, I'm not just medicated.
• 9:21
  Lina: Maybe you need to speak to someone.
• 9:23
  Lina: Yeah, it's not always medic, it's not gonna be medication, but you know what I mean.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like sometimes it's not just like you need help, you need support from an outside system besides your family, bit besides your faith.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it's easy for us, like you know, if someone's having a tooth pain, you go to the dentist.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: If your heart hurts, you go get it checked out.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think because it's such a sub we have suffering in our life all the time.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I think people don't know, like they don't even recognize how much their suffering has gotten until other people tell them, like, hey, by the way, maybe you should talk to someone because they're seeing how it's impacting their functioning.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if everybody needs therapy at the same time.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 10:05
  Hanan: I'm not saying that.
• 10:06
  Hanan: I'm not saying that at all.
• 10:07
  Hanan: My my point is just like, yes, I just think like if it's something that you're thinking about, don't be shy to do it.
• 10:14
  Hanan: And there are like, and one of the reasons that like I we've been waiting for a long time to talk to Sada, but specifically because I wanted somebody who is licensed in our community, who is who understands like, you know, just your background, like where you come from, whether you're third culture or not third culture, what it understands like the the constraints, right, that we have in our culture and society, that maybe this is something that is not like fondly looked on upon by like, you know, your family or your parents.
• 10:44
  Lina: So what else did you what else did you find out when you did this little survey of yours?
• 10:49
  Hanan: You got it, it's not a lot of people, but it's like, but I specifically asked folks who I knew would be like, mmm, this stuff is BS, right?
• 10:56
  Hanan: Okay.
• 10:56
  Hanan: Um my favorite thing is um So there's a selection bias, which it's not great.
• 11:01
  Hanan: I'm just kidding.
• 11:02
  Hanan: No, but like, but but even just across the code.
• 11:04
  Hanan: That's good, right?
• 11:05
  Hanan: But my favorite one was we don't tell people our business.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if if you think about it, like, you know, our communities have received support in so many different ways historically, right?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have your neighbors, you have your extended family members, you have like, you know, uh Sheikh al Hara or whoever, like and so there are some confidentiality parameters that people should consider because these people are part of their community, and going and talking about your dirty laundry or your business or whatever w might influence the way those leaders or those community people see you, and it might impact you negatively.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so it may it could be protective for people to want to maintain their secrets uh within the family system, if that makes sense.
• 11:59
  Hanan: No, that makes a lot of sense.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, being a psychologist or a licensed mental health care professional, you um you are trained like you're a neutral person.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I can't be friends with someone that's my client.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're able to kind of stay um like observing the dynamics, um, not siding with one party or another, um, and be more helpful in terms of trying to figure out um, you know, what guidance would be most helpful for them.
• 12:31
  Lina: Um okay, so I want to, I don't know if you have anything else, but I wanted to get into the like Arab cultural stuff a little bit.
• 12:37
  Hanan: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, all of the themes that I have are very much so related to.
• 12:40
  Lina: Do you have anything specific?
• 12:42
  Hanan: Yeah, so I have one that's that my favorite one that came up in discussion, right?
• 12:46
  Hanan: Okay.
• 12:46
  Hanan: Like favorite, favorite, because I'm sure all of us at some point have dealt with something, maybe not all of us, but at least me.
• 12:54
  Hanan: When I say all of us, I'm always referring to myself.
• 12:56
  Hanan: Um, me and my six personalities.
• 12:58
  Hanan: Um you have the the one thing that I think a lot of the folks said is um, like, what do you say to your parents who always come back to you and say, like, I've sacrificed everything for you.
• 13:11
  Hanan: Everything I've put out on the line has been for you.
• 13:13
  Hanan: And now your therapy is telling you that I'm a toxic person in your life.
• 13:18
  Lina: How do you manage something like this?
• 13:21
  Lina: See, that was sorry, before you you answer that question, that was part of my question that I wanted to ask about.
• 13:26
  Lina: How do you navigate the tension between cultural values and therapy's emphasis on individual needs?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Very good questions, you guys.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's like, you know, the conceptual question.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And this is like in practice, this is what it looks like.
• 13:40
  Hanan: Yeah, which is true because asking in asking both sides, it's like, okay, well, I need to put myself first.
• 13:46
  Hanan: Like, literally, I'm not gonna set fire to myself to keep you warm.
• 13:49
  Hanan: Yeah, that's usually the child.
• 13:51
  Hanan: Right.
• 13:51
  Hanan: And the parent is, I've sacrificed everything, literally put my life out on the line, and then now your therapist is telling you that I'm toxic.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, and and I hope you know, therapists are not telling uh their clients who's toxic and who's not.
• 14:07
  Hanan: You have to remember that this is from a this is from a very human perspective of this is how they feel.
• 14:13
  Hanan: They feel like their child's therapist is telling them that they're toxic.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, or that's the fear, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are they going to, are you gonna align more with the Western or the therapist's perspective or the therapist's values more than your family values?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a I mean, I always tell parents, because I I work with families and couples.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I'm always thinking, even if I'm working with one individual, I'm thinking of their you know, the whole family, the whole family's in the room with us.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm always saying like building relationships and building that alliance between your kids is one of the most important things that you can do.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um trying to be like, if your parent is telling you that, that's an opportunity, I think, to be curious about, you know, what are they worried about?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: What, you know, maybe they're curious about what you are saying about them in therapy and they are coming to the assumption that it's all bad, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so maybe there's an opportunity there to kind of talk to your kids or talk to your parents about what is actually happening in therapy and and how it is a place for you to continue to kind of develop your own identity based on your values that can include faith, it can include uh academic career, it can include relationship management, mood, uh like symptom management.
• 15:38
  Hanan: How do you do that with and I think this is less for like me and more for you know the people out there who are watching us, listening.
• 15:46
  Hanan: How do you do that with a family member who doesn't even believe in what you're doing?
• 15:52
  Hanan: They just think that this thing is bad.
• 15:53
  Lina: You're laughing because you agree with me.
• 15:55
  Lina: No, no, I mean I I that's a very good question because I think unfortunately in our culture, yes, it's like you know, therapy is dismissed and therapy is like hacky fody, as you know.
• 16:05
  Lina: I mean, this is what what you know you're right, a lot of people uh view it.
• 16:08
  Lina: Like, oh, you're gonna go pay someone to tell them about your problems, really?
• 16:12
  Lina: Like, you know what I mean?
• 16:12
  Lina: Like it's looked down upon.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's looked down upon because I mean, this is my own assessment and judgment.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I might be wrong, but I think people don't understand what happens.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like a gossip session, you know?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you're gonna go, it's not the same thing as going to talk to your friend.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe sometimes it is, but that's not the, you know, that's not the goal.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what happens in therapy.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's not there is learning, there is growth, there's understanding like family dynamics.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: There, and there shouldn't be uh imposing.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like the my values are my values.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: The clients' values, my job is to help them define their own values, not mine, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're two different people.
• 16:55
  Hanan: Like, I really think that like if we can just pause here for a moment, because I think you said something really critical right now, Sarah.
• 17:00
  Hanan: Okay, specifically about values, yes.
• 17:02
  Hanan: And I think that a lot of people don't understand this part that when you go to therapy, I'm not going to therapy to learn someone else's values and behaviors.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 17:12
  Hanan: So you said something really important, which is you're doing what with your client?
• 17:16
  Hanan: You're not imposing your values.
• 17:18
  Hanan: Right.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not imposing my values.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if they are interested in learning about my values, because that's another thing that comes up.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like people think it's like a mystery because of the whole Freud, you know, you sleep on the couch and you look the other way.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we've come a long way since then.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we've made a lot of progress.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's good to know.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that no, no, now I forgot what I was saying.
• 17:41
  Hanan: No, welcome to the 40 plus club guide.
• 17:44
  Hanan: 40 plus, yes.
• 17:47
  Hanan: No, but but I think if it's uh honestly truly, I really think that that's something really important.
• 17:51
  Hanan: Because I think in our culture, in our society, um, a lot of times people think like like Lina was saying, oh Haki Faldi, or you're gonna go to the city.
• 18:01
  Lina: Just for the record, I don't believe that it's but I'm saying this is what it's a lot of people in our culture feel.
• 18:07
  Lina: It's like, oh, you're gonna go pay money to tell someone what to what?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna pay money to what?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know to what?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're making assumptions about what it is, and of course, like I would say the same thing.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're gonna go pay money to talk to someone, like talk to me.
• 18:25
  Hanan: That's so true.
• 18:25
  Hanan: Yeah, talk to me.
• 18:26
  Hanan: If I, you know, yeah, but I and I think it's really important.
• 18:28
  Hanan: And I think a lot of um, a lot of I don't know, like what led me to therapy, for example, was a series of things.
• 18:35
  Hanan: Like, I don't really, I it's not like I need it's not about needing therapy or wanting therapy, it's about like navigating certain aspects of my life, especially like grief, that that was that's what mattered for me because I needed to get to a point where like you know, I can talk about my dad, which is still really hard for me without crying.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I still can't do it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, that's one of the reasons.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's hard.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I I and the thing is that we and it's okay, Habits.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 19:06
  Lina: That's it's like you know, you're you're in it's the you're that's you think it you're done with it.
• 19:12
  Lina: No, you're never done with it, and you're not, and like, and then sometimes it just creeps up on you, and you it's like, but that's my point.
• 19:17
  Hanan: That's honestly, yeah, that's that's one of the reasons I went.
• 19:20
  Hanan: I went because I need to be in a space where I and look, it's not like I cry all the time.
• 19:24
  Hanan: Yeah, but that's my first initial reaction, yes, right?
• 19:27
  Hanan: And one of the reasons that I'm like, I'm like, I and it's not about can or can't, but it's about arriving at a place where you're like, okay, like why am I always why is this thing like linked with sadness, right?
• 19:39
  Hanan: And it's funny because in talking to my therapist, Ansara knows I she recommended that a lot of people I went through like 895 people before I finally landed on something.
• 19:47
  Hanan: I honestly like I don't know, it's weird.
• 19:50
  Hanan: Like, people don't talk to you about the process of like picking a therapist, but it's really like you need to find someone that you think they have to fit perfectly, but it's true, it's like picking genes.
• 20:01
  Hanan: You have to, you have to, they have to fit perfectly, and being able to be, and it's not about being vulnerable or talking, but it's about I don't know, it's I almost look at it as like there has to be some sort of way that we click.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know what it is, but yeah, but I don't know about fitting perfectly though, because you know, like even for my therapist, um she has a therapist.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, of course.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: All therapists need therapists.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it's probably more important for therapists to always be in therapy and uh connected to it in some capacity because we get exposed to things in the room that might not be like it might not it be might be the first time.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's not like I can get support from the client about it.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and I can't get like support from family around it specifically, so that's where we go.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think that like some people right will take their grief and go towards like community or go towards um support groups or go towards family or or you know, people grieve in so many different ways.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: For you, I'm glad that you went towards a therapist and you know, uh found someone that works for you.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like my genes.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's great that you feel that way, but but you know, part of the process of of therapy is it is a relationship.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have a therapeutic relationship with each one of my clients, and uh and we have to like have to pay attention to that relationship, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: It had if if I'm not getting feedback or because I'm not gonna be perfect and I might make it fix perfectly, it means we can able we're able to have a conversation with each other.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It means you're able to be yourself and trust that the guidance and feedback that I'm getting is perfect.
• 21:49
  Hanan: And it's one thing I learned about myself when I always say, like, oh, I cry.
• 21:52
  Hanan: And one thing she really helped me see is like at first, she was like, Well, why do you feel so negatively about that?
• 21:58
  Hanan: Yeah, she's like, it's not a negative way.
• 22:00
  Hanan: Express yourself.
• 22:00
  Hanan: Not that I ever really thought that it was negative, but you know, you always associate crying with sadness.
• 22:05
  Hanan: But I'm somebody who cries when I'm happy, I cry when I'm sad, I cry when I'm angry.
• 22:09
  Hanan: I cry for expression.
• 22:10
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 22:10
  Hanan: And she's like, I think you need to realize that that is your body's human natural reaction.
• 22:15
  Hanan: This is what happens.
• 22:16
  Hanan: And she's like, that's the only way that you're able to feel relief.
• 22:19
  Hanan: And I think for me, I've kind of made peace with that.
• 22:21
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 22:22
  Hanan: It's really helped me understand that, like, when I'm crying, you know, it's not because I am only just sad.
• 22:30
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 22:30
  Hanan: She's like, it's a form of expression, it's love.
• 22:32
  Hanan: It's a lot of things.
• 22:33
  Hanan: And it's even helped me see, like, you know, my my younger son cries whenever he's confronted with something.
• 22:39
  Hanan: Yes.
• 22:39
  Hanan: And a lot of times it's made me now pause and ask, why are you crying?
• 22:42
  Hanan: And sometimes he's like, I can't help it, Mama.
• 22:44
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 22:44
  Hanan: And now I understand what he means.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's a body, his body's reaction of expressing.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the thing about like the the cultural part of it too, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you know, I have a similar thing where I'm I had to unlearn the discomfort of crying.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I grew up with, you know, parents and adults saying, Stop crying, be strong.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Stop crying, be strong.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really hate that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought that crying, I should be ashamed to cry, right?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's still kind of Or let someone see you cry.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or let someone see me cry.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it still kind of is uncomfortable, but I have to, you know, I remind myself that no, I am having a vulnerable moment in front of my kids.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I am crying over there.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: They can see a range of emotions and be okay with it.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Just because I'm crying doesn't make me like less reliable or less credible or weaker in any way.
• 23:38
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 23:39
  Hanan: I mean, honestly, for me, I just hate crying after a full face of makeup.
• 23:43
  Hanan: Oh, yeah.
• 23:43
  Hanan: Because my mascara now runs and I was stressed there for a minute, guys.
• 23:46
  Hanan: But we made it.
• 23:48
  Hanan: We made it.
• 23:48
  Hanan: You're fine.
• 23:49
  Hanan: You're fine.
• 23:49
  Hanan: We made it through.
• 23:50
  Hanan: But yeah, that's one of the reasons that I personally sought therapy.
• 23:53
  Hanan: I mean, honestly, I work through other, like a myriad of other things like with her.
• 23:57
  Hanan: But that's really my thing is like to be comfortable in talking about my and I talk about my dad all the time, but in to be comfortable and not have crying be my first thing.
• 24:08
  Hanan: And she told me she's like, it's fine.
• 24:09
  Hanan: It's an expression of love.
• 24:10
  Hanan: It happens.
• 24:11
  Hanan: Like you have to be okay with the fact that it's okay.
• 24:13
  Hanan: It's fine.
• 24:14
  Hanan: It's just your body's reaction.
• 24:15
  Hanan: And I told her, I'm like, it's not that I want to stop it, it's that I don't want it to be just the first thing that happens.
• 24:19
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 24:20
  Hanan: And I think it's because me, I worry that it makes other people uncomfortable around me.
• 24:24
  Hanan: You know what I really do.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why do you care what people think?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about weird, but sometimes you don't care what people think.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, you absolutely do.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's full of it, you want to go.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, wait.
• 24:36
  Lina: I don't care what people think, right?
• 24:38
  Lina: Okay, but here's the thing.
• 24:39
  Lina: Like, I do care.
• 24:40
  Lina: Everyone cares to a certain extent, okay?
• 24:43
  Lina: But like, if this is how you're feeling, you're not hurting anybody.
• 24:46
  Lina: No.
• 24:47
  Lina: You sometimes you can't control that.
• 24:49
  Hanan: Sometimes, but sometimes it's not like the right time or place for it.
• 24:53
  Hanan: I really do feel that.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing is that but it makes her uncomfortable.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe, like, you know, I don't know, Alina, maybe you will come across a situation where you don't care.
• 25:02
  Lina: No, neither do you think it's not a good idea.
• 25:03
  Lina: No, I'm joking.
• 25:04
  Lina: I'm joking.
• 25:05
  Lina: I'm I'm obviously there's there's always a certain level of that.
• 25:09
  Lina: I think if I've denying that, then I'm lying to myself.
• 25:13
  Lina: I totally get it, but I'm just saying sometimes, you know, your emotions are just gonna appear to people.
• 25:20
  Lina: You know, you can't always, it's not like water on tap.
• 25:23
  Lina: No, I agree, but I'm not I know you're you're you're coming from a place where you just don't want it to happen at the wrong A lot of times it's very hard for me because it's not like it's not, and it's it's not so much I don't mind crying, it's fine.
• 25:37
  Hanan: But a lot of times when I say it's not the right place for time, genuinely it's not the right place for time.
• 25:42
  Hanan: Like if I'm at an event at a party and everybody's happy.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a symptom, right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: You looked at it as like, wait a minute, this is outside the scope of what I'm comfortable with.
• 25:50
  Hanan: Exactly.
• 25:50
  Hanan: And no matter how much you tell yourself, like, it's okay to cry, it's okay to it's fine, it's you know it's not fine, and I don't want it to be like where if I'm at home by myself and I see something and I cry, fine.
• 26:02
  Hanan: But if I'm out somewhere, especially when like and and I don't like I said, I don't mind, you know, I don't mind crying.
• 26:09
  Hanan: Like I, my son's graduation, I gave a speech and I fully cried through half of it.
• 26:12
  Hanan: Yeah, and it's fine.
• 26:13
  Hanan: I don't mind that, but sometimes I don't know.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was outside of what your comfort zone, you were not comfortable crying in certain things, and I think it's a symptom, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is it was showing you that like your reactivity and your body and like needed more support than absolutely, yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's okay, it doesn't mean you cancel all other forms of support and just go to therapy, right?
• 26:40
  Hanan: Like you it's it's it's an addition to absolutely, and honestly, for me, it's just it was something to like you you work through like a range of of other things as well.
• 26:51
  Hanan: Like I said, you you it's helpful for me a lot of times when I'm stressed about something or I'm worried about something or I'm sad about something or whatever feelings I'm having, I will just I like to talk about this thing that's just how I work through my feelings.
• 27:06
  Hanan: And Lina and I joke about that all the time because Lina just pretends like our problem doesn't exist.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I mean to a certain extent, yes.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing I How about you let Lina speak for herself, Hana?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead right here.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Seeing a therapeutic alliance that would not happen in the room with family therapy, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's why we're friends.
• 27:25
  Lina: No, no, for me, okay.
• 27:27
  Lina: I I I agree with Hanan of her assessment to a certain extent of how I deal with things.
• 27:32
  Lina: Like I initially will put it away.
• 27:36
  Lina: Okay.
• 27:36
  Lina: I'm just like, I'm not ready to deal with it.
• 27:39
  Lina: And there are some things that I refuse to deal with entirely.
• 27:42
  Lina: I'll I'll admit that, right?
• 27:44
  Lina: Yeah, um, for it's it maybe it's a control issue, I don't know.
• 27:47
  Lina: But like I I don't know.
• 27:49
  Lina: I don't, I mean, she's kind of right, but not entirely right.
• 27:52
  Hanan: But I mean, it's a you literally just want me to be wrong.
• 27:56
  Hanan: You know exactly I've been shaking.
• 27:58
  Hanan: Yeah, okay.
• 27:58
  Hanan: She just wants to say no, Hamas.
• 28:00
  Hanan: Exactly.
• 28:01
  Hanan: Let her give me that.
• 28:02
  Hanan: No, but honestly, we've been friends.
• 28:04
  Hanan: Honestly, we were like 19 years old, or 18 when we met Lina.
• 28:07
  Hanan: 18 or 19 years?
• 28:08
  Hanan: 19.
• 28:08
  Hanan: 19 when we met.
• 28:09
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 28:10
  Hanan: This has been Lina forever.
• 28:11
  Hanan: If there is a huge problem, yeah, literally Lina's like, oh, there's an empty drawer, let me stuck it in here.
• 28:17
  Hanan: I'll go for you in like 10, 20 minutes.
• 28:20
  Hanan: Okay.
• 28:20
  Hanan: And she'll go.
• 28:21
  Lina: But hold on.
• 28:21
  Lina: Is that necessarily bad?
• 28:23
  Lina: I mean, maybe on my own terms, I it during my own like.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: We try to stay away from like bad and good, right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is like there are certain behavioral dynamics that we have as human.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think what you're describing is like you tend to, or what you how you describe, and it sounds like she describes herself the same way.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: For the most part, for the most part.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: But uh how you describe is is that you're more of an avoidant.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: You like to avoid things, maybe you go to them at your own pace, but you don't have a problem ignoring things to protect yourself.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's where your comfort is.
• 28:58
  Lina: Okay, see, see, here's the thing though.
• 28:59
  Lina: Okay, because I'm very I don't know if avoidant is the correct term.
• 29:03
  Lina: Because here's the thing I have no problem confronting people or issues.
• 29:08
  Lina: Okay.
• 29:09
  Lina: Okay.
• 29:09
  Lina: I definitely don't have a problem confronting people.
• 29:11
  Lina: If someone angers me or upsets me or hurts me, I will go to them directly and have that conversation.
• 29:17
  Lina: There's another kind of problems I'm talking about now.
• 29:18
  Lina: I know, I know.
• 29:19
  Lina: But there there are certain things, it's not about avoiding them.
• 29:22
  Lina: It's just like I'm not ready right now.
• 29:25
  Lina: I think eventually I'll get to it.
• 29:27
  Lina: Okay.
• 29:27
  Lina: But it's not gonna be, I don't think it's fair to say it's completely avoidance.
• 29:31
  Lina: It is avoidance, and I'll tell you why.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: But let me just say the difference.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just so I don't lose my turn of that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, but I I mean I know you want to prove your point.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be useful.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have different agendas.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but I think that like what you're describing is distance, right?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so when you know, conflict happens or something uncomfortable happens, you like to take a step back and kind of do your own thing in solitude or let it marinate on its own.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Solitude is the key word there.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, solitude.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and that's great.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think then how do you make sure that you're not avoiding it forever?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's your comfort zone.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so the challenge then becomes what's my timeline?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: How do I kind of encourage myself to move towards these things at a pace?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's probably not gonna happen automatically.
• 30:22
  Lina: Yeah.
• 30:22
  Lina: Okay, no, that's fair.
• 30:23
  Lina: I mean, like I do it is you know, I do like favor solitude.
• 30:30
  Lina: I I will admit to that.
• 30:31
  Lina: But I think eventually I get to it, it just might make might take me longer than another person, for example.
• 30:37
  Lina: Like Henan is completely different where she, like she said, she wants to talk about it, she wants to deal with it.
• 30:42
  Lina: For me, I have to assess kind of like just sit with it, think about it, and then it's a it's a it's um it's just I'm not ready.
• 30:50
  Hanan: But sometimes it's like sometimes, you know, like and I'm not talking about like when you have a fight with somebody.
• 30:55
  Hanan: No, no, no.
• 30:55
  Hanan: I'm talking about when you when you're presented with a life-altering situation.
• 30:59
  Hanan: Yeah, Lina will sit there and I'll be like, well, like one time we're filming for the podcast doing a makeup, and she's gonna about to explode.
• 31:05
  Hanan: She's gonna explode.
• 31:06
  Hanan: Wait, you can feel the energy coming out of her body, yeah, and she's gonna explode because it's sad or because she's on so taken over by this thought, and you're like, why do you do this to yourself?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you want to protect her, and so you think what's best for her is Yanny, take it out.
• 31:23
  Lina: Externalize it in my own.
• 31:25
  Lina: She'll she'll do she'll try that, like have me talk in there, but I don't want to talk about it, right?
• 31:29
  Lina: Just change the subject.
• 31:30
  Hanan: And a lot of times I'm like, but if you talk about it, you're not gonna feel like you're gonna want to explode.
• 31:34
  Hanan: Like that can't be like you can't like blow.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And does that does that work that when you talk about it, like when she kind of confronts you, or not really?
• 31:41
  Lina: Um, sometimes I'll feel I'm still not comfortable enough.
• 31:44
  Lina: Like maybe like a month, two months pass, and then I'm I'm ready to have that conversation.
• 31:49
  Lina: But like there, I do remember a couple of like, and you're you'll be doing my makeup, and I'm like, I don't want to talk about this anymore.
• 31:54
  Lina: I'm like, halas, let's just just move on.
• 31:55
  Lina: Yeah, and then Hanan, like she knows and you're probably reading you're reading her energy.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is the boundary solid serious?
• 32:02
  Hanan: A lot of times, or is it like yeah, a lot of times I will like steamroll that boundary because I'm like, no, you're unhappy.
• 32:07
  Hanan: Something is wrong.
• 32:07
  Hanan: Like, we have to, and it's not about we need to fix it, it's about just get it off your chest, just or just deal with it.
• 32:13
  Hanan: Like, like just deal with it or confront it.
• 32:15
  Hanan: Like you're gonna be fine.
• 32:16
  Hanan: And a lot of times it's like, look, we all have things in our lives, like sometimes we're presented with information.
• 32:21
  Hanan: It really is, I firmly believe it's so hard for our brain to process.
• 32:24
  Hanan: Yeah, right.
• 32:25
  Hanan: And so I feel like sometimes Lina, when she's faced with that, she's like, I'm not gonna, I can't, I can't do this right now.
• 32:30
  Hanan: My brain is not ready.
• 32:31
  Hanan: I don't want to think about it.
• 32:32
  Hanan: We're not gonna talk about it right now.
• 32:34
  Hanan: But my yeah, my and it's I say my problem, not your problem.
• 32:37
  Hanan: I say mine.
• 32:38
  Hanan: My problem is I worry that like when you internalize something and it's affecting you so hard, you're gonna get ill, you're gonna get sick, you're gonna stress yourself.
• 32:46
  Hanan: Literally, that's what I mean.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so from like a place of love and concern, she does not want you to.
• 32:52
  Lina: No, I get it.
• 32:53
  Lina: Oh, but I mean, I mean, listen, if there's anyone who's gonna get me to talk, it's gonna be her for sure.
• 32:58
  Lina: So uh we're gonna go back to the whole Arab aspect of this.
• 33:01
  Lina: How do you set boundaries with parents without feeling like a terrible person?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like Because we have this guilt.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: My role as a psychologist?
• 33:10
  Lina: No, I think if someone comes to you and you have a patient or client, whatever, and they're telling you, you know, I feel guilty, like I'm trying to set boundaries with my parents.
• 33:17
  Lina: And you know, Arab parents aren't normally um the most understanding when it comes to boundaries.
• 33:24
  Lina: Yeah.
• 33:24
  Lina: So how do you what kind of advice do you give to someone who's like, well, how do I set like there needs to be boundaries clearly, but how do I go about that with an Arab parent?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's a really, really good question.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't think there's like a one, two, three kind of answer.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a journey that I continue to be on every single like day, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have to figure that out as I go.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what I try to do is like give myself a guide of um, you know, trying to understand my own parents, you know, trying to know myself and how I do that for myself.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that helps me as a psychologist kind of not over-identify or over, you know, um, but kind of help other people think through these dynamics and figure out who they want to be in those relationships, because that's what it comes down to.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like what kind of daughter do I want to be?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, while also managing all the stuff that drives me crazy, you know.
• 34:25
  Lina: Yeah.
• 34:25
  Lina: So but I think your background, I mean, I'm sure you have some Arab American clients, right?
• 34:29
  Lina: Oh, yes.
• 34:30
  Lina: And and I mean, uh is this statement accurate to say that when you are an Arab American therapist, yeah you're gonna be a little bit more um not I don't know if understanding is the right word, but like you get you get it.
• 34:43
  Lina: You get what the cultural expectations are.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it'll make it easier and less judgmental, but honestly, every single culture, uh any therapist, hopefully that is like trained with community and culture and you know diversity and all that, um, because these are fundamental things, right?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're from a Caucasian family, Indian family, Hispanic, Latino family, like you're going to have similar hierarchy.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like you're looking to the hierarchy of your parents, you want to be respectful, there are certain cultural norms and boundaries.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I boundaries are interesting.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love boundaries.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh who doesn't?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I my understanding of boundaries is a little bit like I don't know if it's different or not, but I don't set boundaries with Hanin.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I set boundaries for myself around Hanin.
• 35:32
  Lina: Okay.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: If that makes sense.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I love that.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think you should explain a little bit what that actually means.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in the context, I mean I could say it in the context of like uh our friendship, or I could say it in the context of like parents.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so for example, like if you know, let's say my mom insists on helping me with a certain task that I don't want help with.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a benign example, so hopefully it's okay.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, don't worry.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is it really benign?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it benign?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: Or is this a real life experience?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let's say like I don't want her to help me with a certain task, or um or let's say like she's talking to my kids about something, and I'm like, oh my gosh, is she saying the right things?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is she going to like scar them?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, things like that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I try not to direct right away, and I try to tell people like our first instinct is to like go towards our parents or go towards whoever and be like, you need to behave this way, you need to stop telling, you know, that doesn't work, right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: We can't, it's e it's harder for us, it's easy for us to direct other people and tell our parents, but it's harder for us to kind of guide ourselves and direct ourselves.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think get in touch with who you want to be as like an adult child to your parents, um, how you want to show up for them.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh go towards them with curiosity.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, if there's a task that my mom is doing, maybe I could be like, okay, who did that for you?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what does it mean for you?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are you insisting on continuing to do X, Y, and Z?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I think within like once you open up that conversation, uh, it helps you build new connections with your parents.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 37:28
  Hanan: Like understanding why they're insistent on helping you in this thing rather than just being like, don't do it.
• 37:33
  Hanan: Right, right.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And also you be open-minded too about like why why do you think that your boundary or your direction to them is right?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why do you think you're the expert and that your direction or your you know what I mean?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like level out the playing fields a little, try to.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:52
  Hanan: I like that.
• 37:52
  Hanan: But I like how you said it's a boundary for me, not for the person, as much as it is for myself around like how to handle my relationship with this person.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then you start knowing yourself with each person, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I tend to get activated by this person, so then I'm continuing to be the expert on how I manage myself around different dynamics rather than and I like how they use the word activated, not triggered.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, activated.
• 38:18
  Hanan: Yeah, I actually really like that.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because it could be positive or negative.
• 38:21
  Hanan: Exactly.
• 38:21
  Hanan: Exactly.
• 38:22
  Hanan: No, I really I I actually really, really like that.
• 38:25
  Lina: Okay, so um a lot of us grow up in the Arab American community or Arab community anywhere, it doesn't have to be Arab American.
• 38:32
  Lina: We always hear the phrase, what are people gonna say?
• 38:35
  Lina: Okay.
• 38:37
  Lina: Yeah exactly.
• 38:38
  Lina: Should we go nest?
• 38:39
  Lina: Exactly.
• 38:40
  Lina: Okay.
• 38:40
  Lina: Who are the nests?
• 38:41
  Lina: That's my question forever.
• 38:43
  Lina: Who are the nests?
• 38:44
  Lina: Now we grew up with this.
• 38:45
  Lina: Now, how does this affect us as we get older?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:48
  Lina: Like what kind of impact does it have on our psyche?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh it depends, right?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think about what function does that serve when we say in this hatul e, like where where does that come from?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: What I mean, uh we probably each have a different experience of why that's significant and in this is our community.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, right, and and not even our community, our parents.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: The way our parents think of our community, right?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or the community according to them.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there is value in their reputation, their credibility in how these other people are judging.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I don't think it's like a a quick to dismiss point, like, oh, how dare you ask about the nails, but it is a balanced thing.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: We live within a community.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you balance, you know, your own functioning and your own individuality while maintaining closeness to systems that are important and valuable to you, such as in this.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, or valuable to your parents if your parents are not.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not valuable to us, valuable to our parents.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the parents are important, right?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Usually.
• 39:55
  Lina: Yeah.
• 39:56
  Lina: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:56
  Lina: Yeah.
• 39:57
  Lina: But do you think like it affects like how like you know, because it's such a big deal or a big part of the culture, unfortunately, whether we agree with it or not?
• 40:05
  Lina: Like, has it has it, I mean, just some of your clients that you've come across, like how has it been, is it like as big of a um an issue?
• 40:14
  Lina: An issue for them uh at an adult age, or is it something that they kind of learn or grow out of?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like um you mean like in this hat ule, or what are people gonna say?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: You mean in the context of about why they're coming to therapy or just in general?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like how yeah, exactly.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, you're gonna marry this person outside of your culture.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see, I see.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean it's it's it's important, it's relevant, right?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think rather than, you know, even if you don't agree with with that idea, people grow up knowing themselves by seeing how others see them back, like reflected sense of self, right?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the more work you do on yourself and the more solid you are, the less that really matters as much, right?
• 41:05
  Lina: Okay.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I don't want to make a judgment all across, obviously.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it is important.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're part of a community, like you're but I don't know if I'm like really qu answering your question.
• 41:16
  Hanan: Like, how does something like that?
• 41:17
  Hanan: Give me an example.
• 41:18
  Hanan: So I'll give you an example.
• 41:18
  Hanan: Yani Masaran growing up.
• 41:20
  Hanan: Let's just say growing up, Massaran, you're you are somebody who really loves to, I don't know, like you know, you were gonna become a doctor and now you're gonna become an artist.
• 41:28
  Hanan: Yes.
• 41:30
  Hanan: When your mom has told everybody now that her daughter's a doctor, you're an artist.
• 41:35
  Hanan: What are people gonna say?
• 41:36
  Hanan: What are people gonna say about the fact that you're gonna like a starving artist?
• 41:40
  Lina: Yeah, like doesn't that affect, like, you know, because we we have this guilt.
• 41:46
  Lina: Yes.
• 41:46
  Lina: I mean, like it's like, are you gonna feel guilty because you're you're letting your parents down?
• 41:51
  Lina: Because, like, oh my god, I'm not a doctor, I'm an artist now, for example.
• 41:54
  Hanan: But I do feel like that's a big that comes from like this constant reminder of like what are people gonna say?
• 41:58
  Hanan: What are people gonna think?
• 41:59
  Hanan: What are people gonna think of us?
• 42:00
  Hanan: Right, how can you shame us this way?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's internalized a lot by like adolescents and young adults.
• 42:07
  Hanan: Yeah, like how how do you feel like like because uh honestly, I think all of us, I think the three of us growing up here overseas, wherever you grew up, yes, have hurt like has hurt, like we've all heard statement at least once in our lives.
• 42:21
  Hanan: And this what are people gonna say?
• 42:23
  Hanan: What are people gonna think?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: There, I mean it's and it's trying to understand what that means like for you within the context of your own family and your own community is really important because, like you said, who who are the people?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: But without like seriously, who are they?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who are the knits?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it the people back home that like you're worried about like them seeing social media posts?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what what is the worry?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get down to what the actual fear is.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get down to like are you okay with this, but you're just not okay with other community?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's a process to unpacking that in a way that brings people closer together, and I think helps with the feelings of guilt and shame if you when you go through that.
• 43:07
  Hanan: Um, you know, I do have one change, one related question to this specifically when you say, like, you know, because culturally for us, a lot of people are like, and yeah, like I think there's a good chunk of people in our community who are very pro-therapy and they're great.
• 43:20
  Hanan: The other chunk, and this is based on my bias research.
• 43:24
  Hanan: Okay.
• 43:25
  Hanan: My bias research, like some uh like some of the one of the narratives that I came across was like, um, well, therapy sucks because it just uh reinforces bad behavior, like it's an excuse for bad behavior.
• 43:38
  Hanan: Like you can people just say, like, oh, well, you know, I behave this way because my therapist told me that I need to do X, Y, and Z.
• 43:44
  Hanan: So that's bad behavior.
• 43:46
  Hanan: But I felt like that statement was really loaded.
• 43:48
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 43:49
  Hanan: Like, what do you consider bad behavior?
• 43:51
  Hanan: If somebody is and it's because this person said, Oh, like, um, you know, my child decided to go and seek therapy, and now that they're in therapy, you keep talking.
• 44:00
  Hanan: Talking about boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
• 44:02
  Hanan: Therapy reinforces bad behavior.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, That's interesting.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Therapy reinforces.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard that.
• 44:11
  Lina: Bad behavior.
• 44:12
  Lina: Yeah.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe like that's not, you know, like when there are systematic changes in the household, like, because even though one person is going to therapy, if you think about it.
• 44:23
  Hanan: Everybody's going to therapy.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, no, only that one person, right?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about that.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: But but they are making shifts and changes in their minds.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: In them.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of affects, they impact the whole system.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that person, maybe that person should go to therapy too.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like do a family session or go together and find out what it's about rather than yeah.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the but the idea of like it reinforces bad behavior, I'd be curious to understand more about what that means and why this makes them uncomfortable, like for their kids to have boundaries.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're not equipped to like um kind of like communicate.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a lost in translation kind of thing.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:08
  Hanan: There's that, but I also feel like a lot of times when people have boundaries, like parents will come and like just in talking to like, you know, multitude of like people in my life, friends, you know, acquaintances, whatever.
• 45:20
  Hanan: And they'll say, like, oh, you know, when I tell my parents, oh, like this is a hard boundary for me, like, I don't want to discuss this.
• 45:25
  Hanan: Their response usually is um, there's like different things that they come at them with.
• 45:30
  Hanan: It's either like I've given myself, you know, given up my whole life and you're laughing because it's true.
• 45:34
  Hanan: I've given my whole life up for you.
• 45:36
  Hanan: Oh my favorite is Biril Walidin.
• 45:38
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 45:39
  Hanan: Biril walidin.
• 45:40
  Hanan: Like translate.
• 45:41
  Hanan: That tells you that you must care for your parents, and right now you're not caring for me, and right now you're not listening.
• 45:46
  Lina: Again, that's where the guilt tripping goes.
• 45:48
  Lina: And yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 45:49
  Hanan: I know so it's it's like really hard.
• 45:51
  Hanan: Like, and I think it's like, how do you like if you had to give and we're just talking advice at this point.
• 45:56
  Hanan: Like, if you had to give advice to somebody that's currently in therapy, and this is what they're met with, specifically around that, whether it's with parents or something in their life or whatever that's met with like resistance, like what is the best way?
• 46:07
  Hanan: How do you cope?
• 46:09
  Hanan: Like you're just saying, like, they're making shifts in their mind.
• 46:12
  Hanan: Yes.
• 46:13
  Hanan: So those shifts translate to in their home, yes, or in their relationships, and now they're being met with all this negativity.
• 46:19
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 46:19
  Hanan: How do you what's your advice for that?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I hope it's not negativity.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I hope the person sometimes we we when we learn a new skill or we're like practicing a new boundary, uh, we overdo it, right?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to like it's good to know.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like and we wanna like assert ourselves right away.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that is gonna be, you know, we go from like I have no voice to everyone better listen to me and here's my position.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think there is like a process to it and there's a learning because it's a whole dynamic shifting.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just them shifting, uh, there's an adjustment period to it.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and understanding that like you can kind of create these boundaries without actually using the word boundary, right?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you go to if I go to my mom and I say, Mom, I I I have a new boundary for you, or I have a boundary.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm just not gonna use the word boundary.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be in her world, it's a trigger trigger word defensive, right?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you mean boundaries?
• 47:22
  Hanan: Yeah, it's that's gonna be literally it's gonna be like another bitikida, another bit, echirita alia, echrit.
• 47:29
  Hanan: That's my favorite.
• 47:30
  Hanan: It's an indeed like basically, like this is like you know, uh something that's just in style now, and you guys are just like following a trend, and you're not your own people.
• 47:40
  Lina: Speaking of which, this is one question I wanted to ask you.
• 47:43
  Lina: Uh, generational trauma, that term.
• 47:46
  Lina: I hear it thrown a lot, yeah, thrown around a lot.
• 47:49
  Lina: Okay.
• 47:49
  Lina: Yeah.
• 47:50
  Lina: And part of me, and you know, I I I haven't been to therapy, so I don't understand, but here I am speaking to an expert.
• 47:56
  Lina: So I need your honest like explanation of it.
• 48:01
  Lina: Because sometimes I feel people throw that phrase around at any minor inconvenience, and they say, Oh, that's trauma.
• 48:09
  Lina: Okay.
• 48:09
  Lina: So can you like explain that to me?
• 48:12
  Lina: Because I feel like sometimes some people use it to kind of say, Oh, well, this is the way I am, because generational trauma.
• 48:18
  Lina: And and and sometimes it is.
• 48:20
  Lina: But sometimes it's not, and you want to call out this person and be like, no, you're just an asshole.
• 48:25
  Lina: Okay, it has nothing to do with weaponizing trying to solve a problem yes, however, right now.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're out there.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's almost like you're talking about like people, in in your opinion, they're kind of weaponizing uh mental health labels or like you know, hot buzzwords, yes, and it's to explain their bad behavior.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, according to you.
• 48:47
  Lina: Yes, you like mad men, right?
• 48:49
  Hanan: Like sometimes always I do think that sometimes people just kind of sit on this thing and they're like, oh, well, it's because generational trauma.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh I do believe generational trauma exists.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I was just trying to understand like your question.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where are the origins of your generational trauma?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we are impacted, right?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we keep in our bodies like our biology, our genetic makeup.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're impacted by the societies that we live in, right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where we come from makes a big difference.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, when I am working with like a family or a client and we do a family genogram, right?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, there's like three generations back.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important to know and for clients to know where their grandparents came from or what background they're coming from, because that explains how they were raised, what influences were happening at the time.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a depression?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a war?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Was there uh a genocide?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Was there those things really inform how our experiences are shaped and we can't ignore it, right?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I'm sure a lot of labels are used like inappropriately or out of context or overused, but it is a real thing, right?
• 50:03
  Hanan: It is I'm not I'm not arguing at trust.
• 50:06
  Hanan: No, but I think what we needed, I think what what Lina's trying to say, and if I could, you know, yes, I explain it.
• 50:11
  Hanan: Yes, I think what Lina's trying to say is Lina believes truly, and I knew that generational trauma exists.
• 50:16
  Hanan: I think that sometimes, like you were saying, people weaponize that term for to to to justify their bad behavior.
• 50:22
  Hanan: Oh, yeah.
• 50:22
  Hanan: To basically say, like, I'm this way because you know, my mom was X, Y, and Z, or my dad was X, Y, Z.
• 50:28
  Hanan: Right.
• 50:28
  Hanan: Like basically, I'm I'm incapable of being any other way.
• 50:32
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 50:33
  Hanan: Well, not even being any other way.
• 50:34
  Hanan: Like, if you know, sometimes you have very confrontational people, like they yell and they scream in your face, and they're like, Well, this is because I was raised by people who couldn't stand up for themselves.
• 50:43
  Hanan: So I have to stand up for everyone.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:45
  Hanan: And I feel like sometimes you're like, no, you're just rude.
• 50:48
  Hanan: But I mean, exactly.
• 50:50
  Hanan: You know what I mean?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: But that's good to know for them, right?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: They are in charge of how they show up in the world.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if they want to share with you that that's generational trauma and they're apologizing and taking accountability, that's one thing.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're using it to justify to be like, oh, and I'm gonna keep doing this because I have generational trauma and that's just how it is, obviously, that's like I think Lina's other liability.
• 51:10
  Hanan: Lina's, but I do think I do think sometimes that happens where you have people like I'm just going to.
• 51:16
  Hanan: I'm telling you, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna yell at you and I'm gonna confront you because I was raised by people who never confronted their problems and never confronted others.
• 51:24
  Hanan: So I will never let that happen.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like kind of like that overcorrection that we talked about.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, you're wanting to, maybe, I mean, maybe you're wanting to kind of see how that fits for you.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: How are you gonna take accountability for it?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: How are you going to be in charge of how you show up given the generational trauma and how you impact other people?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a balance between self, self and others.
• 51:47
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 51:47
  Hanan: So I I my question really was around kind of like to tie in what Lina was saying, and it's not just generational trauma, just in general.
• 51:56
  Hanan: One of the things that I heard, and I thought that this was the funniest thing, was when people go to therapy, isn't it supposed to make them better?
• 52:03
  Hanan: Why do people end up being worse?
• 52:04
  Hanan: And then why do they cut people off?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, whoa.
• 52:07
  Hanan: And I was like, okay, maybe you were at the receiving end of a cutoff, and that's why you feel this way.
• 52:12
  Hanan: But I just thought I would like post that to you.
• 52:14
  Hanan: Like, why do people have this misconception that you're gonna be better or worse after therapy?
• 52:19
  Hanan: I don't think it should be better or worse, right?
• 52:22
  Hanan: Like, what is like I don't think people go to therapy to be better or to be worse.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I yeah, I don't know about that.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, uh well, you know, therapy is like as much as we can talk about relationships and relationship dynamics, there is an actual therapeutic process, right?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's actual like goals, treatment plan goals, and like objectives and things like that that you would want to make sure to be measuring, and you want to make sure you're on the same page with like what the hope out of therapy is so that it doesn't get lost somehow, I guess.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:56
  Hanan: 100%.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but maybe along like the way there are you're practicing different things with people and um and it stirs things up, and so people uh experiencing that and you yourself being in therapy, like it just might be it shakes things up in a way that might be uncomfortable.
• 53:17
  Hanan: And I think that that's the thing, and it's funny because when I was we we were discussing that, my me and the person I was talking to about that, I said, Well, have you ever thought that maybe that this person is working on figuring themselves out and it's less not, it's not really about you.
• 53:29
  Hanan: Yeah, right?
• 53:30
  Hanan: Like, why are you taking it so personally?
• 53:32
  Hanan: It's not really about you, it's about them and them finding like who they are right now.
• 53:36
  Hanan: Right.
• 53:36
  Hanan: And so the response was no therapy made them a bad person.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_05: That's like I was like, I don't think it made them a bad person.
• 53:43
  Hanan: It's like a grieving process, right?
• 53:45
  Hanan: Like so, but I I do think that I do think that in this specific instance, this person feels like the person that in their lives that's in therapy has changed so drastically and they're like unable to deal with that change.
• 53:58
  Hanan: And so, and I think the person that's in therapy, they're in therapy for a lot of reasons, right?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's it, like regardless of this case specifically, like um I think that dynamic is very common, right?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Where it could be within a couple, right?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like some one person goes to individual therapy and all of a sudden there are changes in the marriage, and like, you know, uh like the other person is feeling left out, like the partner that's not in therapy is feeling or whatever, right?
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it comes up where people are feeling either left behind, left out, because there's a shift.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: I am now going to this therapist, I'm working on my life, and the other person is impacted, you know, whether it's a friend or no, 100%.
• 54:42
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 54:42
  Hanan: No, I just thought I just thought it was really interesting because this person was so like they're they were like so adamant.
• 54:47
  Hanan: So adamant that this person is now a bad person because yeah, like that's it, they've changed.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a process.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're still in the process, right?
• 54:53
  Hanan: I think they're in the I think both people are in the process, and I think both people need to understand that like they're coming from like opposite sides of the spectrum.
• 55:00
  Hanan: One person has had a life-altering experience.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, but without getting into like people's too much of uh Yeah, I don't want anyone to be able to identify themselves.
• 55:10
  Hanan: No, you wouldn't be.
• 55:10
  Hanan: Okay, yeah, you wouldn't no nobody would be able to disguise, disguise all information.
• 55:14
  Hanan: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:15
  Hanan: No, nobody will be able to identify themselves or anything like that.
• 55:17
  Hanan: But I just thought it was interesting because you have one person who had a life-altering experience and did not know how to uh get past that experience, and that's why they're in therapy, and the other person experienced the same thing and just was able to move forward like nothing happened, not like nothing happened, but just to be totally fine.
• 55:37
  Hanan: Yeah, and I'm like the other person, their world fell apart because yes, you guys had the same experience, but everybody experiences things differently.
• 55:45
  Hanan: But trying to explain that to somebody and handles it differently, yeah, yeah.
• 55:48
  Hanan: But trying to explain that to somebody who and I'm like, I the the person that said this about you know their the other person in their life, it's like kind of like a callous statement.
• 55:58
  Hanan: Because I'm like, you don't realize what this alter life altering experience did to them.
• 56:03
  Hanan: Like their lives, like there was a person before this and a completely different person after this.
• 56:10
  Hanan: You didn't experience that.
• 56:11
  Hanan: Yeah, you don't know, you have always known who you are, and that hasn't changed or shifted.
• 56:16
  Hanan: So they're not a bad person because they're going to therapy.
• 56:19
  Hanan: No, they're they they're entering therapy and they don't even know who they are.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:24
  Hanan: And I think that the you know, that my friend who said that, I just don't think they've they there's like no, and I I told my I was like, you have to have like slightly more empathy.
• 56:34
  Hanan: Like this didn't affect you because you are somebody, you know exactly who you are.
• 56:39
  Hanan: Yeah, you know, yeah.
• 56:40
  Hanan: So and then the other person in their life that they might not know exactly who they are.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the thing.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they know who they are.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, but I yeah, I mean, I'm everybody grieves differently.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: We try to, especially with like a big grief, we try to impose our grief on each other.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: It gets grief is one of those things that gets like overwhelming.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: It gets like complicated and we overlap and we layer each other, and we don't know where I begin and you start and who ends.
• 57:07
  Hanan: It's it's but I do think like I do think I do think like my friend who said this, they are um they are very confident in who they are and like they go through life like a that's like a train that's always on time.
• 57:20
  Hanan: That's the best way I can describe this person.
• 57:22
  Hanan: A train that's always on time.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: They know where they're going.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, oh man, now I don't have my you know, my BFF or whatever in their life when they experience and they experience this loss together.
• 57:34
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 57:35
  Hanan: And so the other person, I think it's just, and it's not about being more or less sensitive or anything.
• 57:40
  Hanan: No, I really think this was so life-altering for them that they were one person before this loss and a different person after this loss.
• 57:46
  Hanan: And I always say that.
• 57:47
  Hanan: I always say, like, no, there's a shift.
• 57:50
  Hanan: If you just stopped this train that's moving, you're always this train that's moving.
• 57:54
  Hanan: If you stopped and really paid attention, you'd be like, they're not the same person.
• 57:57
  Hanan: This loss has just changed their lives exponentially, yeah.
• 58:04
  Hanan: And they don't know how to deal with it.
• 58:06
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 58:07
  Hanan: Anyways, I digress.
• 58:08
  Hanan: But now that we have you here, we did want to bring up an issue that I think is really important, right?
• 58:12
  Hanan: And I think a reason that a lot of people may have sought mental health assistance or therapy in the last three years.
• 58:18
  Lina: Yes.
• 58:19
  Lina: So uh the genocide in Gaza, okay.
• 58:22
  Lina: Um, I'll be the first to admit that it has definitely affected my mental health.
• 58:26
  Lina: Yeah.
• 58:27
  Lina: Okay, because like I'm constantly seeing these videos, these images, and also where I work doesn't help.
• 58:32
  Lina: I'm exposed to this all the time.
• 58:33
  Lina: And a part of me feels even guilty bringing it up because oh, my poor mental health, you know, and I'm not even there, right?
• 58:40
  Lina: Like I'm not on the ground, I'm not actually experiencing what what you know these people are experiencing.
• 58:44
  Lina: I'm not experiencing the death, the hunger, all this horror, all these horrible things that are happening to the people in Glasda.
• 58:51
  Lina: So sometimes I feel like, oh sh I was before we came, I'm like, should I even ask this?
• 58:56
  Lina: Because I kind of feel guilty to talk about, oh, how I'm feeling about it.
• 59:00
  Lina: You know what I mean?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:01
  Lina: But how how are we like what's your what's your advice or what would you say to someone who comes in here telling you, I can't, like, how do I deal with this?
• 59:09
  Lina: It's affected them so much.
• 59:11
  Lina: Like watching this, it's on our phones.
• 59:13
  Lina: Yeah, we see these images, we see these videos, and it's just horrific thing after horrific thing.
• 59:19
  Lina: And like I said, I'll be the first to admit, like, there was a moment or a time where I felt if I don't look, yeah, that there's a guilt too.
• 59:27
  Lina: I'm like, okay, so I'm just kind of leaving them to suffer.
• 59:30
  Lina: And I'm not even let like I'm not I I don't want to like turn off my phone either, you know?
• 59:34
  Lina: Yeah so how do you how do you like what's your advice?
• 59:36
  Lina: Like what should we how should we uh deal with this?
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it is so horrific.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I didn't even know that you your job involved looking at like images and things like that.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's just even beyond uh because I'm sure you've heard of secondary trauma, right?
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: Where you're exposed to things sometimes multiple times, and um, and then there's survival's guilt, right?
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like you exactly, yeah, like these are your people that you are removed from, and there's this systematic oppression that is continuing to happen over and over and over, and it's a feeling of I mean, I don't know what it's a feeling of for you, but there's this helplessness, there's the it's so complex um that sometimes it's hard to function.
• 1:00:26
  Lina: I mean, I'm not even going to pretend that that's uh because because like there there's some people, you know, at the beginning of this genocide, there were some people who came out and said, Oh, you know, just turn off your phone, don't watch this.
• 1:00:39
  Lina: And I'm like, that's not what I want to do either.
• 1:00:41
  Lina: Yeah.
• 1:00:41
  Lina: You know, like I I want to know what's happening.
• 1:00:44
  Lina: And a part of it is like what you said, I feel helpless.
• 1:00:47
  Lina: Like, what can I do?
• 1:00:48
  Lina: Like, you know, I'm sure we've all donated, I'm sure we've all, I mean, I've been to protests, I've done everything I can possibly do.
• 1:00:54
  Lina: Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  Lina: But at the same time, it's just, it's not just also the genocide that's happening, it's also like the lack of power that I feel that I've done.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's the systematic oppression that is everywhere.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like Gaza, I feel like, you know, I mean, I'm Egyptian American and I grew up obviously Adal Falustanea is something that is in our households, you know.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about it, we talk about it.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so it's not like, you know, October 7th was my first exposure to the oppression and um the systematic oppression.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in any in any system, right?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is like a global system that everybody's watching.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it represents like the worst of humanity and what we're capable of doing as humans, and that's terrifying.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and watching policies and politics and all that kind of and and capitalism and you know, all that humans are motivated by, um, it's a hard it's hard.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just I don't know if I would have like advice or um that is like applicable to everyone, but I think it is like I guess what I tell myself is it's important to preserve and protect my own mental health because I will not be a support to any system if I'm falling apart.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that's what empowers me.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh otherwise I'm otherwise I'm gonna collapse, right?
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's that's the same thing I do at my practice, the same thing I do at my with my family, right?
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to kind of in some way in this very weird world that we live in um politically, and just you know, that you have to find some way to uh survive and protect yourself so that you can continue to be of service in some capacity.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you might be able to be of service in a huge way, and sometimes it's in a very small way, and but it's it goes back to like your value system, right?
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that you're watching and seeing and witnessing that uh disagrees with your value system, and there's nothing but I feel like the last like 15 years of our lives have been like this of 20.
• 1:03:13
  Hanan: Like honestly, like I'm not I'm not saying I'm not downplaying at all what's happening, but I feel like I was also like I had these horrendous emotions around like when you know when w when the Arab Spring first happened, let's talk about that.
• 1:03:26
  Hanan: That was in 2011, right?
• 1:03:29
  Hanan: And then you saw the the like what happened in Syria, and that was devastating to watch.
• 1:03:34
  Hanan: It was devastating to watch all of these people be forced out of their homes, be ruthlessly murdered, yeah, by their own leadership, right?
• 1:03:42
  Hanan: Be gassed.
• 1:03:43
  Hanan: Yeah, it's it's gassed like chemical, like chemical grade weapons used against these human beings.
• 1:03:48
  Hanan: But I think you fast forward and it's happening again.
• 1:03:52
  Hanan: Like, what is wrong with humanity is what it makes me think.
• 1:03:55
  Hanan: And a lot of times, like I agree with you.
• 1:03:56
  Hanan: I'm like, no, I have to watch, I have to see what's happening.
• 1:03:58
  Hanan: And then at some point, I kind of get to where you're going and I'm like, I can't do this anymore.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't, I can't but I don't know if it's like um I think it it's a back and forth kind of process for me.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's like I can do it and then I stop forever.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think with the what with the watching, I feel a connection that it's like I'm witnessing the pain.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody has to witness, somebody has to see.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: But we don't all have to witness it at the same time.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I like.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody maybe we can take turns witnessing because there was this interview um that I was watching, like uh so and another way that I I cope is I'm part of a group.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think community is really, really important.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's nice.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: Part of a a group of mental health care providers that um I mean we talk about like decolonizing therapy, but more a lot of times um Reza comes up and and because like I said, it is kind of a symbolic representation of you know global oppression in such a horrific way.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think that's where I get my support.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's where I can talk about what if Zionism comes into the room or what if this comes, how do I maintain my professional identity and all of these things?
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I mean it's like I don't know.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what you I don't know what you've done to kind of take care of yourself.
• 1:05:21
  Lina: I mean I don't I just there's that like if I do, like maybe like I would take a break for a couple days and not look at stuff like that, but then I can't.
• 1:05:31
  Lina: Like my guilt is like, okay, well, like I'm not, I always say to myself, I'm not going through what they're going through.
• 1:05:38
  Lina: I need to toughen up and I need to look at this.
• 1:05:40
  Lina: Okay, you know, because it I I just feel like we I don't know, I feel like it's betrayal if I stop.
• 1:05:45
  Hanan: Like if I'm not but I don't think it's betrayal.
• 1:05:47
  Hanan: Like at some point, here's the thing, right?
• 1:05:49
  Hanan: Like, and I and you're not the only person who feels this way.
• 1:05:52
  Hanan: A lot of people think like, okay, well, if I'm living in like a peaceful space and I have a nice warm bed and food in the middle of the day, but wait, but wait, but let's let her finish about the.
• 1:06:02
  Lina: I just feel like if I'm not paying attention to what's happening, if I'm not talking about it, if I'm not sharing this information, I feel like I've let them down.
• 1:06:10
  Lina: Yeah.
• 1:06:10
  Lina: You know, like it's the most basic thing that I can do.
• 1:06:12
  Lina: I feel like, but but then again, the other part of it is is what I'm doing actually having an impact?
• 1:06:19
  Lina: Because I like sometimes I feel no, it's not, no matter what I do.
• 1:06:22
  Lina: Even we, you know, we've had entire episodes about Palestine and Gaza.
• 1:06:25
  Lina: Yeah.
• 1:06:26
  Lina: We've had a doctor who was in Gaza.
• 1:06:27
  Lina: We've we've done, like, I feel like we can do more.
• 1:06:30
  Lina: And when I don't, I feel this guilt.
• 1:06:32
  Lina: Like I could be doing more.
• 1:06:34
  Lina: You know, like it's always this like struggle.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and it maybe that's serving like it's serving a function, right?
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: When we have um when we're compelled to like think about something, right?
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like there's a thought and we're compelled to kind of look and look.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a function.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that you value so much and you want to make the biggest impact and the biggest, you know, uh influence and take all the opportunities.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and and I get it.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I get it.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's it's maybe it's a matter of like balancing out for yourself and understanding that.
• 1:07:12
  Lina: And we try to do that because like, you know, me and Helen when we started this podcast, like we always say this, it wasn't supposed to, it was supposed to be fun, light, and and just us having a conversation, inviting the viewers or the listeners in on this conversation.
• 1:07:24
  Lina: It wasn't supposed because we we both have high stress jobs, right?
• 1:07:27
  Lina: And so the last thing we wanted to do was to do something that's very serious.
• 1:07:31
  Lina: Was have a high stress podcast.
• 1:07:32
  Lina: Yeah, but then like, but and there's already enough like podcasts out there that talk about politics and what's happening in the world.
• 1:07:39
  Lina: So we wanted to be a little bit different and we wanted to um uh highlight our culture, yes, and to show all the positive things about our culture, right?
• 1:07:47
  Lina: But some of the negative things too.
• 1:07:48
  Lina: It's okay.
• 1:07:49
  Hanan: And then to make it feel like you're coming into like a relationship, like an like an ad that, like a hangout.
• 1:07:53
  Hanan: Yes, yes, that's the whole point of the thing.
• 1:07:55
  Lina: And then and then the genocide and Gaza happened, and for the longest time, for months, I told Hannah, I'm like, I don't want to be in front of a camera, I don't want to talk about anything.
• 1:08:02
  Lina: Like, I can't, because our podcast was supposed to be lighthearted.
• 1:08:05
  Lina: Yeah.
• 1:08:05
  Lina: And then when we finally, when I finally, I don't know, it was like what, six, seven months before I even agreed to be like, lighthearted does not exist too much.
• 1:08:11
  Lina: And then what when we did come back, we were talking about Palestine, and people would ask me, I'm like, guys, I'm not gonna go do this podcast when this is happening, right?
• 1:08:19
  Lina: And then another part of me, as a Palestinian American, I feel like when you when people hear the word uh Palestine or Palestine or Palestinian, it's always like this sad um attachment to that name, right?
• 1:08:34
  Lina: Like for me as a Palestinian, like some like I refuse to watch, like you know, I want to support like movies like Hindra Jab, and I want to support movies that talk about the plight of the Palestinian people.
• 1:08:43
  Lina: But at the same time, as a Palestinian, and I will admit this on camera, I don't want to watch it because I already see this on the ground.
• 1:08:50
  Lina: Like I also want to represent my culture, it doesn't always have to be uh us dying because we we love life, you know.
• 1:08:58
  Lina: And and and for me, it's like I I I want to like you know, like hand judge, but I couldn't go see it because I'm like, I can't sit in in a movie theater.
• 1:09:05
  Lina: As much as I want to support this film, that film is not for me.
• 1:09:07
  Lina: Yeah, that film is for people who aren't aware.
• 1:09:11
  Lina: For me, I can't watch stuff like that.
• 1:09:12
  Lina: Like I stay away from movies.
• 1:09:15
  Lina: And that's and that's smart.
• 1:09:16
  Lina: You're protecting yourself.
• 1:09:18
  Lina: It's not even about just protecting, it's just like I already see I saw this like when it was happening.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's unnecessary, right?
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not uh we lived it, right?
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: We were watching it on our phone, and I remember him like when they were I couldn't sleep that week.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: So like reliving it can be re-traumatizing and it's not informing you of anything.
• 1:09:36
  Hanan: So I don't think I don't think we are the target audience.
• 1:09:39
  Lina: No, we're not the target, but I also think it's it's it's kind of I mean, I don't know if unfortunate is with you, Lina.
• 1:09:45
  Hanan: And we you and I were talking about this week.
• 1:09:47
  Hanan: Like um, we were talking about St.
• 1:09:48
  Hanan: Levant, right?
• 1:09:49
  Hanan: Yeah, and I'm like, I don't know why people rack on him so much because you know he is.
• 1:09:53
  Hanan: I'm like, I love like I I love I love the music.
• 1:09:56
  Hanan: I think it's awesome.
• 1:09:57
  Hanan: People are like, oh, it's not the best representation.
• 1:10:00
  Hanan: And I'm like, but why?
• 1:10:01
  Lina: Like I get maybe you feel this way, but I we're not a monolith.
• 1:10:04
  Lina: That's the thing about Palestinians.
• 1:10:06
  Lina: And it's not just we're not a monolith, also we get to have songs, we get to sing and be happy.
• 1:10:12
  Lina: And this is one of the things that that's also like hard kind of to reconcile with everything that's happening.
• 1:10:17
  Lina: We also have happy occasions.
• 1:10:18
  Lina: We also want like I don't want all of the media representation to just be about doom and gloom.
• 1:10:24
  Lina: Or like, like I get it, it's important, but like for me as a Palestinian, I'm not gonna be watching that stuff because that stuff is not for me, it's for those people who need to be educated, for example, right?
• 1:10:34
  Hanan: But you know, Lina, I love that you're saying this and you're saying, Oh, we're not a monolith, but I really to tie it back to like why we have Sarah, I think it's but no, but it's true.
• 1:10:42
  Hanan: I love the fact, and this is why I'm like very like I am so supportive.
• 1:10:46
  Hanan: Anybody from our community who needs therapy, I'm like, you need to go see a therapist like this because we're not like I can complain about my parents, but you best believe that I will cut a bitch if somebody says something about my parents.
• 1:10:58
  Hanan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:10:59
  Hanan: Because at the end of the day, like at the end of the day, like only I can say that.
• 1:11:03
  Hanan: No one else can say that.
• 1:11:04
  Hanan: And I feel like I feel like no one's group rules.
• 1:11:07
  Hanan: Yeah, I feel like no one's gonna understand that except for somebody who's lived a similar experience or knows where I'm coming from.
• 1:11:13
  Hanan: You know what I mean?
• 1:11:14
  Hanan: Like, no, you're not gonna like you're gonna have all of the of the background knowledge, like of what Lina was talking about, or where I'm coming from, that when you sit there and and you're it's just even as a friend, right, and we have a discussion about something, you would understand where I'm coming from.
• 1:11:28
  Hanan: Sure.
• 1:11:28
  Hanan: You're not gonna tell me, like, oh, your parents are just toxic people.
• 1:11:31
  Hanan: You're gonna be like, okay, well, you need to pause, look at the way that they were raised.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think I mean to be to be fair, regardless of whether the therapist is like understands your cultural background or not, I hope.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: What's a lot what they do?
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: It does help sometimes.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it doesn't.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes somebody might feel uncomfortable going to someone from their same cultural background.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but yes, I I hear what you're saying.
• 1:11:52
  Hanan: You know what I mean?
• 1:11:52
  Hanan: Like, you best believe, like, no, it's it's there there is this saying that I like live and die by and it's hilarious, right?
• 1:11:59
  Hanan: And it's like, um, and it's and and I'll have to explain it, but it's like, anam huya albnami, yeah, 100%.
• 1:12:06
  Hanan: Right?
• 1:12:06
  Hanan: Which means, like, yeah, me and my brother, like, if we had to go to war against my cousin, we'd do it.
• 1:12:12
  Hanan: But guess what?
• 1:12:13
  Hanan: Me and my cousin test us against the world.
• 1:12:16
  Hanan: I love these sayings.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, it gives you like the rule of the culture and like a snippet.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is our hierarchy and this is how we do it.
• 1:12:23
  Hanan: Yeah, and it's like at the end of the day, like that's that's just how we that's that's how it is.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: But then, but you and also in therapy, you get to kind of explore, right?
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: We don't just like hopefully it's a place where you explore, like, do you want that saying, do you want to live by that saying, or are there any adjustments or modifications that you want to make based on the facts, right, of what's happening.
• 1:12:42
  Hanan: No, I agree with you 100%.
• 1:12:44
  Hanan: But I I love that you said that because I I really do sometimes truly like looking at some of the like rhetoric that's online about, you know, whether about just Palestinians in general, right?
• 1:12:56
  Hanan: Or Arabs in general, even to take it up a level from just Palestinians.
• 1:13:00
  Hanan: I'm like, we are a wonderful and rich group of people.
• 1:13:03
  Hanan: Like we are such a rich culture.
• 1:13:05
  Hanan: We're not limited to one specific.
• 1:13:07
  Hanan: And I hate, I hate when people try to say, like, oh, well, you shouldn't be doing this or you should be doing this, or I just don't think people will ever understand the depth and the beauty of like who we are and where we come from.
• 1:13:19
  Hanan: Yeah.
• 1:13:19
  Hanan: Our language, the way we express ourselves, our food.
• 1:13:22
  Hanan: And people try like a lot of times I feel like people outside of our culture really do go out of the way to like tie us to trauma or to like negative imagery or whatever.
• 1:13:29
  Hanan: And I'm like, no, yeah, we are so much more than that.
• 1:13:32
  Hanan: So like when you say these things, I understand what you mean.
• 1:13:36
  Hanan: Like, I don't want to just be represented by only sad things, exactly war or by only trauma.
• 1:13:43
  Hanan: No, there's so much more.
• 1:13:44
  Hanan: Absolutely.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I feel especially like to your culture, to my culture, to your culture, that it's just and Nina, like it sounds like you're you've like you kind of gave us a snippet of like your own timeline in terms of like right after the genocide, and then how you kind of re-entered, you know, the this project, this podcast project, and how you made it, you know, and it's a journey.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're still trying to figure out and and you know, it sounds like you're you're on on the right track.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing something good.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you're you're figuring things out from your own perspective, right?
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: What makes sense to you given your experiences?
• 1:14:24
  Lina: And and just just to kind of like I I think it's not just the genocide and razor.
• 1:14:28
  Lina: Obviously, that's a that's a big thing for me.
• 1:14:31
  Lina: Um, but like even with you know the ice raids and you know families and you know kids being deported.
• 1:14:37
  Lina: Absolutely.
• 1:14:37
  Lina: I mean, there's just so much like that's the oppression, the power structure.
• 1:14:41
  Lina: And it's the same system, it all comes from the same system.
• 1:14:43
  Lina: And I feel like people in this country, even like with everything that's happening, like I think, and and Gazda has a lot to do with that because I feel like you know, everything's out in the open now.
• 1:14:53
  Lina: Right, right.
• 1:14:53
  Lina: Yeah, if they can look what they can do there, we can do because we can get away with anything.
• 1:14:57
  Lina: But like the stress, like I can I can't even imagine, like, you know, these little kids, you know, you're going after their parents, they're picking up their kids at school, and it's it's not just like Palestine, it's not just the Arab world, it's everywhere, you know?
• 1:15:09
  Lina: Yeah, and like day in and day out, I think that has a toll on people, especially when we're seeing it on our phones.
• 1:15:14
  Lina: Yeah, and then the biggest thing for me, it's like you'll see this really sad video and you're crying your eyes out, and then the next video is something funny.
• 1:15:21
  Lina: I'm like, what?
• 1:15:22
  Lina: Like, I can't even imagine stuff, yeah.
• 1:15:25
  Lina: Like our brains, like the processing going from something extremely like sad and horrible, and then after it, like five seconds.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't have enough time to process like you kind of become decent.
• 1:15:36
  Lina: I feel absolutely like I feel like that's had such a huge impact on people.
• 1:15:40
  Lina: It's like, okay, that's another video from Gaza, all right, whatever, you know.
• 1:15:43
  Lina: Like, oh, some some guy the you know, ICE is raiding another school today or another place of it's like normalized almost like you you get lost kind of in all of these things that are getting thrown at you, and then it's like you're like you said, you become desensitized, and oh, it it's like the algorithm is telling you, hey, accept this.
• 1:16:00
  Lina: This is part of life.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: We can watch a cute cat and then watch and then watch.
• 1:16:05
  Lina: And then with the values part where you were talking about your values are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.
• 1:16:09
  Lina: This is not clicking with me.
• 1:16:11
  Lina: Like this is not right, right?
• 1:16:12
  Lina: You know, so you have kind of this like inner battle with yourself constantly.
• 1:16:16
  Lina: I don't know.
• 1:16:16
  Lina: I just I'm struggling with that.
• 1:16:18
  Lina: No, but I think that that's I think that that's honestly you're one, you're not alone.
• 1:16:21
  Hanan: Yeah, that's a lot of people.
• 1:16:23
  Hanan: Uh two, hold on.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, uh two, the struggle is good.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, you don't uh uh if you weren't struggling, then you would be avoiding, kind of like what she was accusing you of earlier.
• 1:16:34
  Hanan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:36
  Hanan: I'm just letting you guys know.
• 1:16:37
  Hanan: You know what?
• 1:16:38
  Hanan: They know us very well.
• 1:16:39
  Hanan: Well, I'm just Lina has avoidance issues.
• 1:16:42
  Lina: Okay, okay.
• 1:16:42
  Lina: Okay, what's what to wrap this up?
• 1:16:45
  Lina: What's your advice on how to deal with this, at least?
• 1:16:47
  Lina: Like just any kind of like how to cope.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um like in the in terms of the like secondary.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening in the world?
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what's happening in the world?
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know and I feel like I need advice.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_00: We all need advice.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean I I go back to like mini steps, right?
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I go back to you know, sometimes I zoom out and like look at things from like a zoomed out kind of bird eyes view perspective and and look at it, accept it, and then look at my role and focus on how am I taking care of myself and how am I also making an impact on the world in a balanced way that's not gonna make me collapse, you know, and also in a in a way that's not gonna make me hide and and yeah, um, and just kind of making sure to protect some of the ways that you have already been coping.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe for you it's you know, restructuring how you engage with uh um things that you want to highlight about Philistine, right?
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's the growth in it and that's part of the self-care.
• 1:17:57
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:17:57
  Lina: Yeah.
• 1:17:58
  Lina: I think this was uh a good conversation.
• 1:18:00
  Lina: I know.
• 1:18:00
  Lina: I think I learned a lot.
• 1:18:02
  Hanan: Okay, well, Lina and I went to therapy today.
• 1:18:04
  Hanan: I mean I go to therapy all the time.
• 1:18:06
  Hanan: This is not therapy for the 10th time.
• 1:18:09
  Hanan: I love that therapy.
• 1:18:10
  Hanan: I love it.
• 1:18:11
  Hanan: No, but no, honestly, I really I have been waiting to do this.
• 1:18:15
  Hanan: Yeah, me too.
• 1:18:15
  Hanan: Lina's been waiting to do this.
• 1:18:16
  Hanan: I love this episode so much.
• 1:18:18
  Hanan: I really hope that you guys found value.
• 1:18:21
  Hanan: I really hope that if somebody is on the just the edge of thinking, should I go with the therapy?
• 1:18:27
  Hanan: Should I go that you found this, not to push you one way or the other, but that you just found this discussion useful.
• 1:18:32
  Hanan: Yeah, that's it.
• 1:18:32
  Hanan: Yeah, inshallah.
• 1:18:33
  Hanan: And thank you, Sarah, for taking time out of your very busy schedule to be with us.
• 1:18:36
  Hanan: Thank you so much.
• 1:18:36
  Hanan: Thank you so much.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love your partnership.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love your podcast.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I love the dynamic that you have.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is like such a wonderful project.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I love it.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love it, and I'm honored that you guys had me.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for coming on.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you guys soon.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Inshallah.