Latest / The Wilmac Wire / Adam Hassan | From Wilmac to Axon and the Art of the Deal

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Adam Hassan | From Wilmac to Axon and the Art of the Deal · The Wilmac Wire

• Emily McNulty: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, welcome or welcome back to the Wilmacwire. Thank you for being here. Today's episode was a fun one to record. We welcomed back a former Wilmac team member who's gone on to do some really cool and important things in the public safety space. We chatted with Adam Hassan, who's now the principal sales engineer at Axon. He's based up in Toronto, and he's been behind some of the biggest police service deployments across Canada. So besides spending some time on Adam's history at Will Mac and how he originated on the service side, but ended up moving to the sales side, which has contributed a lot to kind of his his philosophy as to how he approaches things. We dug into his career journey, the AI conversation and public safety and how it's showing up in some of Axon's products like body worn cameras, which was really interesting. We even discussed some of his side life as an angel investor. So we appreciate Adam joining us on the pod and sharing his story. So I'm just going to turn it over to today's episode. Thanks for tuning in. joining us from across the lake. In Toronto. He's a York University political science grad. He spent nearly seven years at Wilmac as a field service engineer and solution manager. He then went on to Axon, where he currently serves as principal sales engineer, having been involved in every major police service deployment across Canada in recent years. He's also an angel investor and advisor to growth stage companies entering regulated markets on the side. Welcome to the Wilmacwire, Adam Hassan. Adam, thanks for joining us. Adam Hassan: Great to be here. Emily McNulty: Wonderful. We're we're so excited to have Stephen McDonnell: Psych to have them. Emily McNulty: you here on the podcast. we're gonna start things off, Adam, with with a brief icebreaker. It's just for our audience to get to l know you a little bit better. but we call it this or that. So I have three questions for you. Each question will have two options. choose your preference, explain a little bit why. So the first one, in the city or on the lake. Adam Hassan: on the lake. yeah. Emily McNulty: Really? Okay. So you're you're in Toronto though. Are you in downtown? Adam Hassan: No, I'm in a suburb. I grew up in the city and during the pandemic we moved out to a suburb. I never thought I would live in a suburb. I was a city guy through and through. But six years ago during the height of the pandemic, we moved on to an acre just outside the city and I'm surrounded by nature. I can't go back. Stephen McDonnell: D the kids love it. Yeah. Adam Hassan: Kids love it. Kids are living the dream. Stephen McDonnell: Yep. Emily McNulty: Yeah, okay, next one s goes to something that we were chatting about a little bit before we were started recording. and you can you can divert from my options, but I have Toronto Maple Leafs, Toronto Raptors, or Toronto Blue Jays. Adam Hassan: Toronto Raptors, but I Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adam Hassan: have a soft spot for the Jays. I love Emily McNulty: Mm, okay. Adam Hassan: baseball and those Jays championship runs in the early 90s. I still remember those. Stephen McDonnell: Joe Carter. Adam Hassan: Joe Carter. Stephen McDonnell: They you guys have been good of recent too. Adam Hassan: You know, after last year's World Series run, I didn't think that they'd have a good season. I figured, you know, they'd probably have a bit of a hangover and that's what happened. But if they're, if they're making a postseason run, I might, take a look. Stephen McDonnell: I was actually up there on a business trip during the World Series and it was it was pretty serious. I mean the hotel bar lobby area was like ten deep. Could barely watch Adam Hassan: I bet. Stephen McDonnell: the game. Adam Hassan: I bet. Huge demand. Emily McNulty: So I have to ask Adam too, you mentioned you're a Lakers fan. Why the Lakers? Adam Hassan: Yeah, so I first discovered professional basketball, I think, when I was four or five. And Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adam Hassan: my cousin had a computer game. was Magic versus Bird, I think. And Stephen McDonnell: Yeah, I remember that. Adam Hassan: he told me, you know, you've got to pick either yellow or green. And I just picked yellow. And Emily McNulty: Yellow or green. Adam Hassan: that turned out, that picked for me. And that made me a Lakers fan until the Raptors got inaugurated in 1995. Stephen McDonnell: And you get to you get how many games a year do you go? Adam Hassan: I wasn't good about it last year, but typically I'll try to get out to 10 to 15 games. But Stephen McDonnell: That's pretty good, yeah. Emily McNulty: That is pretty good. Adam Hassan: you know what? Now that the Kawhi trade is official, I think I'm going to go and watch some good basketball again. Stephen McDonnell: Hey There we go. Emily McNulty: So to say we could have a whole episode on the the whole Kawhi scenario. but all right. Adam Hassan: Exactly. Emily McNulty: Moving moving us on to our third of our icebreaker questions, a little bit more relevant to your position, but architecting the deal or watching it go live? Adam Hassan: That's tough. Emily McNulty: That was a tough one. Adam Hassan: I would Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: call it like 5149, putting a deal together. Emily McNulty: Okay. Adam Hassan: But being in the field, being with users, the people that really benefit from our stuff, that's pretty special too. So. Emily McNulty: Yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate the percentage breakdown too. I know it's a tough question. And Steve always makes fun of my questions because sometimes they're hard and I don't realize they're hard. So not not Stephen McDonnell: Those were all pretty pretty solid ones. Adam Hassan: No, they're great. They're great. Yeah. Emily McNulty: too bad. Not too bad. I'm getting better. I'm getting better. All right, Adam. Thanks for for humoring us and going through our icebreakers. hopefully our listeners know you a little bit better now. but we're gonna get things started with your career journey. So you studied political science at York University, which doesn't have a very obvious path to public safety technology. So how did you end up going down that route? Adam Hassan: Well, I feel pretty confident that my parents aren't going to be watching this, but this isn't Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: anything they didn't know. I was a horrible student. I Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: was not a good student. And it wasn't for a lack of aptitude. I generally was pretty quick on my feet in class and did what I had to do to get out of school with my high school diploma and be admitted to university. But I didn't really have a big plan. didn't know which way I was gonna go with my career. But what I told my parents to keep them off my back was that I was going to be a lawyer. And so, yeah, Emily McNulty: okay. Adam Hassan: was, was, that at least on paper sounded good enough until Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adam Hassan: I got into university. And then I checked in with a family friend of ours who was a lawyer and I spent about a day in his office. He offered me a summer internship and I spent the day there. I said, I can't do this. And so I finished out my degree and enjoyed my time in school, but I worked part-time on help desks. And that's how I got my start in technology. Emily McNulty: Okay. Okay, so help desk was was where it started. Gotcha. And then I know correct me if I'm wrong, I'm looking on your LinkedIn. Was Will Mac your first job out of university? Adam Hassan: Will Mac was my first career job, absolutely. Emily McNulty: Wow. Adam Hassan: It was the first real kind of professional type of role I've. Stephen McDonnell: How how did we find you? Adam Hassan: this is a good one. was Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adam Hassan: working, I was working a help desk and I, I was passed over for a promotion that to be fair, I didn't really pursue that vigorously, but when I got passed over, my, my pride was hurt. And at the same time I was, I don't think I was engaged, but I was pretty serious about my wife at the time. then, my then girlfriend and I just knew that doing what I was doing was not going to get it done. I just knew that it wasn't enough. wasn't the, you know, the type of employment that could sustain a family. And so I started applying for things, whether I knew I was qualified for them or not. And that, that led to me being picked up by recruiter and then getting to meet the, guys at Wellmac, Steve and Bill and the rest is history. Stephen McDonnell: What year was that? If can you remember that? Adam Hassan: That was late 2009. That was the Stephen McDonnell: Two thousand and nine Adam Hassan: fall of 2009. Emily McNulty: Okay. Adam Hassan: And then I ended up starting in January of 2010. Emily McNulty: Okay. And at that point we did have a Toronto office. So did you have that expectation that you'd be working in person in our office up there? Yeah. Adam Hassan: yeah. yeah. but in seat at eight o'clock in the morning, ready to take a call Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adam Hassan: from our, our scheduling manager. Stephen McDonnell: This this was before the the remote days. Yeah. Tom Tom Emily McNulty: I was gonna say I I I knew it was, but Adam Hassan: long long before. Stephen McDonnell: Outlinger. Adam Hassan: Tom Otlinger. yeah. Emily McNulty: Okay, and you guys worked we talked about it too. We you you worked in downtown Toronto where w our previous Wilmac Canada office was. Adam Hassan: right across the street from City Hall. Great location. Stephen McDonnell: this also predates me for our listeners. I didn't start until two thousand twelve, two thousand thirteen area. So Yeah. Emily McNulty: Okay. So we're going back to the to the archives Adam Hassan: We're Emily McNulty: a little bit. Adam's Adam Hassan: going back. Emily McNulty: got st stories for our listeners. Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Emily McNulty: All right. And Adam, can you I guess share a little bit about what you did at Will Mac, what that experience was like? I'm I'm assuming you worked with a lot of our Canada based customers and and Peace apps up there. Can you share more about that? Adam Hassan: Yeah. So initially I was hired to be a field service engineer. So that meant that I was there to deploy the product for new customers and to maintain the product for existing customers. So a little bit of installation and a lot of support and service. And there was, it was an interesting transition between some old hardware products. So I had to get taught to service equipment that had been deployed decades earlier. And then at the same time, deploy brand new technologies, more server database type architecture while maintaining the old stuff. Stephen McDonnell: that was the classic field service engineer role back then. And Emily McNulty: Right. Stephen McDonnell: and what you probably don't even understand or and some of our customers, a lot of it was on site back then. You you Adam Hassan: All on site. Stephen McDonnell: were going to fix stuff on site. Emily McNulty: Okay, so let me ask that a couple of our our guys now have have told me that they always dress warm when they would go on site just 'cause it was cold in the server rooms. Was that the case for you back then? Adam Hassan: I think the guys are getting soft. Emily McNulty: Yeah. okay, so I guess Adam, before I I move on to kind of the next step in your career, do you have any I guess story that sticks out during your time at Wilmac that was, I don't know, a a lesson learned or something that you remembered as positive or anything like that? Adam Hassan: yeah. mean the things that really stick and come to mind are like the big screw ups that I had. And those are, those are how, how inevitably, Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adam Hassan: you know, I'd learned anything. And the first big one that comes to mind was, this must've been less than a month after I got married. So I'd taken three weeks off to get married unpaid and I came back. We're still sleeping on an air mattress in our condo. And for whatever reason, my Blackberry was set to vibrate and I was on call and it had been a late night and I wake up to 14 missed calls and they're all from Big Steve. And the last one, he's just apoplectic. And so I sack up and I call him. And he lets me have it because we're about to miss the SLA on this, on this customer with a gold maintenance contract. And, and I scramble and I get out there and I'm expecting the worst and what it ended up being was something really trivial. They didn't lose anything. It hadn't been offline. It was the equivalent of their computer not being plugged into the network. So Emily McNulty: man. Adam Hassan: fortunately I dodged a bullet. And, I messed up, but there was no real harm done to a customer. And at the end of the day, that's what everybody cared about. But coming out of that, big Steve sat me down. came to Toronto and he sat me down and he goes, look, we like you. You're smart. You're hardworking, but are you somebody that I can count on? Because at the end of the day, if you're not somebody that I can count on, nothing else matters. And that was a huge moment. in how I grew up professionally. And I had a number of those moments where, fortunately, not all of them mistakes, but definitely moments where I learned how to be a pro. Stephen McDonnell: We don't have those late nights anymore really. Which is nice. Adam Hassan: man, I used to have some late nights. man. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Stephen McDonnell: So I I even this morning we were responding to a public safety RFP and they had SLAs on like an hour you have to be there. and I we were just looking back and it doesn't happen that often where in the today's world where you really need to be on site like that. Adam also had a ton of experience with Jim 'cause he crossed over to the sales side. Emily McNulty: I was gonna say with Jimbo. Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: Yeah, that's right. Emily McNulty: Yeah, you worked with Big Jim. You know his favorite line Can I ask you that? Will you remember? Adam Hassan: Who's who in the zoo? Emily McNulty: No, that's a good that's a good one. Stephen McDonnell: That's a good that's a good one. That's a good one. Who's who in the zoo is a good that Emily McNulty: That is a good one. That's Stephen McDonnell: that's a gym. Adam Hassan: Yeah, who's who Emily McNulty: a good Jim ism. Adam Hassan: the zoo Yeah, yeah, and I remember one, I mean, listen, Jim is so well put together, right? Who doesn't come across Jim and think, man, I wish I could be as classy as that guy. And the other thing that I came to learn after now a couple of years in that job of being a field engineer was that it didn't matter where I was or what I was doing. If I was reachable by phone, I could be sent anywhere. It could be across the country, it could be... you know, down the street. And I thought to myself, you know, I want to stay in technology, but I don't want to do this anymore. Maybe I should learn how to do that. And, and it paid off. was, it was fantastic. I'm so glad it's probably one of the most consequential decisions I ever made crossing the floor from just pure support into sales. Emily McNulty: Yeah, I didn't even pick up on that. That the evolution, yeah, isn't very typical. but obviously it led you to Axon, where you've spent over a decade there and you've worked your way up a couple levels to now principal sales engineer. Stephen McDonnell: Axon wasn't like Axon back then. So so Adam Hassan: That's right. That's right. Good catch. Stephen McDonnell: how was that before we jump into M's question of your career journey later? Emily McNulty: Yeah, I didn't even think about that. Stephen McDonnell: Exxon was not this I mean, they had the body cameras, but that was just coming up. They weren't this the Motorola competitor back then. They they were Emily McNulty: Mm. Stephen McDonnell: the up and coming company. So how would how was working with a company like that, when you first got there, especially in Canada, which was probably a growth region for them? Adam Hassan: So when I joined, it wasn't Axon, it was actually Taser International. So we were still trading Emily McNulty: Mm. Adam Hassan: under our original mark. And there was no Axon Public Safety Canada. It had been incorporated less than a year earlier. And until that point, all the sales had been through distributors. The sales of the Taser weapon that were being used by law enforcement, because of the strict rules around firearms in Canada. So I was hired to help start this business and start the direct sales of not just taser weapons, but the larger vision, which was body cameras, cloud-based digital evidence and the supporting workflows. So it was. It was fascinating. I, I personally, I took some heat from my family and friends. So from my family and the people in my community, they didn't like Taser because they were familiar with the negative headlines and connotations Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: around the Taser electrical device. had some people, somebody I grew up with, accused me of being complicit in the persecution of minorities. And, and I, that was, that was a lot to process. And then Emily McNulty: Yeah. Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: I had my buds in finance and tech who were telling me, man, look at this company's financials. They barely get their filings out on time. They have some scrutiny from the sec. Are you sure you want to join what looks to be a sinking ship? But I all, I all sent them the same thing that kind of got my attention. And there was a video of our founder on, on YouTube talking about why he started this company and his zeal for his mission, which was to make the bullet obsolete was so readily visible that I figured that at the very least I want to I want to meet this guy and I want to work with these people that that seem to be Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: deeply passionate about this. Stephen McDonnell: when did it become axon what it is today? Adam Hassan: Well, we changed from Taser to Axon in April of 2017 and at the time internally it was... A little controversial because the Taser brand amongst law enforcement professionals was well known and well loved. And the vision of renaming ourselves to Axon had to do with our vision for a connected ecosystem of apps and devices and people. And so an Axon is actually, it's part of our nervous system. It's, it's part of the nerve that signals between each other. And so the idea is that, we're going to be this connective fabric for law enforcement. Now, in hindsight, it's like, yeah, that sounds great. But at the time, it was was a risky move that at least we thought so. But I'm glad that smarter people than I went through with that, because it's a great brand. you know, we still have Taser and it's part of our suite of technology. But Axon is very much the right fit. Stephen McDonnell: I was I was thinking Axon, I think body camera, but I do think taser, body hardware, out in the field stuff, and now you're obviously Adam Hassan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stephen McDonnell: moving into communications. But is body camera still like the main the biggest revenue producer? Adam Hassan: Ooh, well, I'm not sure if I'm going to slice it based on product category, but I would say that amongst our customers, body cameras are what we're really known for. We, Stephen McDonnell: No in four. Yeah, yeah. Adam Hassan: we really popularized. Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Emily McNulty: Yeah, and so on top of that, like Axon expanded its product set quite a bit since you've started there too. So I mean, has that I guess changed your perspective at all? I mean, as a company scales, obviously that results in changes to the employees. How have you dealt with with that and managed that? Adam Hassan: it's been, it's been the greatest gift because for someone like me, getting the opportunity to learn new stuff on a regular basis, especially when there's real stakes behind it, you know, not knowing it can have tremendous impacts for our customers and for our teams. It's, it's really exciting. You name it. We're part of it now. especially from the 911 call all the way through now to a prosecution or a trial being heard in the courts. And now we've expanded meaningfully into things like drone defense and mitigating hostile drones. There's something for everyone. It's a really exciting. Emily McNulty: Yeah, I'll get into this more, I think, too. But the several different use cases you called out too, I feel like that probably just gives you a greater picture of what's going on within that industry and it helps you pinpoint the different challenges that they're facing. Like within 911, obviously that's a very particular part of public safety. And when you went into Axon, that kind of took a broader step back eventually as it's progressed. But I'm gonna I'm gonna take a little bit of a deep cut for my next question. So in your LinkedIn bio, you describe your work work as equal parts art. and science. So can you expand a little bit on that and why why you explained it in that way? Adam Hassan: Now that you're saying it out loud, deeply regret using that language. I'm going I'm going to, I'm going to blame that on, AI. Stephen McDonnell: She does she does some digging. Emily McNulty: Do, yeah. Adam Hassan: joking aside, think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that everything is about people. And, and one of those lessons that I learned at WillMac was when big Steve took me aside and he goes, look, we're not a technology company. We're a service company and every organization that's out there that serves customers is well suited to remember that above all, they're a service company and you don't serve an organization. You serve individuals. You serve people. You serve teams of people. And so the art is remembering that and remembering how people like to be treated. What makes them feel appreciated? What makes them feel heard? what makes them feel supported and cared for. And that can be easy to lose sight of when you're making great products that are in demand, but that, that very much needs to be top of mind. And then the science part of it is that people think, or they're under the impression that to be a good at sales, you have to be the life of the party and you gotta, you know, be texting with everybody all the time. And I, that's just not the truth. The best salespeople I know are process driven and they're highly disciplined and They're not afraid of meeting new people, but they may not necessarily be extroverts with a capital E. And that very much is the science. Emily McNulty: Yeah, I like that people component that that you called out. Cause even too with the way you just described Will Mackenhouse, Steve Sr. used to explain it, like the through line is still there with the people component. The way in which we explain it is definitely different and has evolved based on how our companies evolved. But that people through line is is always there. And I think staying rooted in that when we're in a technology market is still it's very important. It's a differentiator of sorts. so I appreciate you sharing that, Adam. Like I said, that was a bit of a deep cut. So I appreciate you digging something up for me there. But I wanted to move a little bit more into kind of your your active day to day, what you're what you're doing. And I called it out in your intro, but you've been involved in every major police service deployment across Canada over the last several years. So can you, I guess Give us a little bit more detail about what maybe one of those deployments in particular looks like if you're able to share or what those types of projects have have taught you at that scale. Adam Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So I have been, over the last couple of years, very deeply involved in the deployment of body worn cameras with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. So that's the largest policing organization in Canada. and a very complex organization, spanning a variety of public safety functions, and they cover the entire country. coast to coast. So they are contracted with Axon And so it's been quite a bit of work just organizing the deployment around what the data model looks like for people to access. the contents of evidential material once they upload it in the system, and then the day-to-day needs of using our products in that environment. So a lot of planning, a lot of coordination, but one of the things that I'm deeply proud of is within a few weeks of working together with the project team on the RCMP side, they mentioned that it was one of the best partnership and vendor experiences they had ever had. Stephen McDonnell: That's great. What what's it like having I mean, that is h hardware intensive with software as well. But a lot of lot of people we talk to, especially nine on one these days, it's moving more towards just pure software. and you guys still play, I mean, it's one would say maybe the most important piece of hardware there is out there in the world today in public safety. How is deploying hardware, man managing that part of the project compared versus software? How how do you kind of go about both? Because they're very different types of implementations. Adam Hassan: Yeah, fortunately the hardware side of things is not particularly complicated and I have to give credit to our product teams for coming up with a very easy to deploy and support. hardware profile for our body worn camera and supported peripherals. And that becomes really an exercise in logistics. What needs to be where and by when. And then for the deployment of our hardware on site. In many cases, our customers with their electricians and other facility staff are very capable of deploying that. It's not a complex installation. And then on the software side. That's where the rubber meets the road because now you're thinking through the tabletop exercise of mapping roles, permissions and access controls as well as access to features, as well as disclosure workflows through the organization as they one adapt to new technology, modifying their existing business processes while still honoring commitments that they have in flight. So it's a little bit like. changing tires while driving down the road. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Stephen McDonnell: Is there a lot of training for the hardware? Adam Hassan: We like a model where we can support our customers. So we do go outside and deploy and do onsite training alongside them. And then we Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: also provide them with the collateral to update their learning management systems and self-serve. And there's only going to be a certain number of users that we're able to. educate during a training session and then the nature of the organizations are that new people are always coming in and new people are always promoting out. So our customers get self-sufficient pretty quickly. Emily McNulty: Right. and we've to I think we've talked with a couple of our guests on this, but and we we see it too in our day-to-day interactions with customers up in Canada versus in the US, but it feels like modernization within the Canadian public safety market is moving, I guess, at a a more rapid pace with like NG911, for example. I guess have you seen that? Have you s experienced, I guess, a little bit more urgency around the public safety agencies you you work with. Adam Hassan: I'd say in general, in Canada, it's a different policing market for a couple of different, for a couple of reasons. One, the nature of civilian oversight and the relationship between our police executive. and the municipalities and the provinces they serve. So one, there's a very formalized structure in place that's fairly uniform across the country. And our police also serve on a series of national boards and committees. Together, they their own industry organizations. And so everyone knows everyone. It really is that type of industry. Secondly, There's a lot of consolidation. So you'll see that there are resource groups that should serve as common operating platforms for things like records management systems and 911 systems in different parts of the country. And so you'll have people really take advantage of things like cooperative architecture and purchasing vehicles. Emily McNulty: Yeah, that's that's interesting. Just because we've been so eyeball deep, especially in the United States recently. And obviously we forget how close Canada is that it operates differently. And that's a very American thing of me to say. I was interested in that perspective. because honestly, Adam, I do think you've been the first like Canadian-based guest that we've had on the podcast. So I I just wanted to pick your brain a bit on that. but I'm gonna take it a little bit in a different way. And Steve's gonna know I I had to ask this question. But you you've spoken at multiple conferences on on topics that you specialize in with what you're doing at Axon. So I guess how have those experiences been speaking at national, international levels, even our our team just saw you at the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police conference, their innovation summit, just a few weeks back. and I guess what have you found to be the most interesting and challenging topics to address within those conferences. Adam Hassan: So I really enjoy those conferences and those conferences are where I get together with my customers and my partners and we get to break bread and share ideas. And so those are typically very friendly audiences. And so those are fun and I wouldn't particularly characterize presenting to those groups as challenging. What I really enjoy is when I can get into industry events that are more in line with civilian oversight. and regulation where it's less of a friendly audience and people who come to the room with a very different perspective with different goals. And then there's an opportunity to hopefully change some minds when it comes to perceptions around AI and policing in general. And so I was at one of those fairly recently. I was there in June and there were lawyers there representing different layers of government who were openly musing about Hey, what if we just banned AI for now until we could figure out our way around this? And that was someone with a very valid point of view who was expressing a serious thought. And I didn't make it my goal to persuade that person, but I did make it my goal to educate the rest of the room as to where the technology was and how we could mitigate the risk. And anytime you can be in a space where it's adversarial, but polite. then at the very least you have an opportunity to educate. Emily McNulty: I was about to say I I wanted to ask too, because we've had a couple of people on here who who speak at in on large stages. do you naturally feel like you could step into that role of speaking, or do you feel like it's taken some some time and effort to hone in how you present yourself, how you address the audience? Like you said, you like to pursue things that might be a little bit more controversial. how how do you deal with that? Or how did you get to this point, I guess, in your speaking journey? Adam Hassan: It takes practice. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adam Hassan: And if I remember the very first team sales meeting I attended in Rochester, I was asked to present some slides, just sitting around the board room with a handful of my peers and I froze. I choked. couldn't do it. And, and it was tough, but also I hadn't prepared. And that really highlighted to me the importance of preparation and finding. a style that works for the individual. Emily McNulty: Yeah, completely understand that. And I'm gonna go into our our third theme now because I think Steve might be chomping at the bit to ask questions about this. But you talked about presenting on on AI in in the industry. And it's been I guess among the people that we've spoken with on the podcast, they're a little bit more progressive when it when it comes to AI, but I still think there's a bit of a gap between where the progressive people are going and then where the industry is actually at. So I guess I'm gonna just start things off. by by asking you to share a little bit about kind of what you're speaking about at conferences when it comes to AI, your perspective, what you're seeing from your customers as they respond to AI and how that's going. Adam Hassan: Yeah, so the big thing for law enforcement is governance. How do you safely deploy these tools? How do you know how they're being used? How do you quantify or qualify the impact of the tools so that a law enforcement agency can responsibly answer questions to their community? So you don't want to be in a position where you put tools in the hands of the users that can be misused because governance was not an original design concept. So when AI is designed correctly for public safety, it preserves the upside. of the efficiencies and intelligence that can be gained, but it just cuts off the downside. It mitigates it through design. Emily McNulty: Is there any way it's been used? In like the hardware side of things, have you seen like I would d looking for a use case, I guess, as to how it's being utilized, maybe with the body borne cameras or like you call out the tasers, that sort of thing. Adam Hassan: yeah. AI has supercharged our body worn camera. So on the Axon body four, we have an AI assistant called the Axon assistant with a press of a button. A police officer can translate up to 50 languages. It's probably more than 50 at this point on the fly. And so there's a great video from a roadside stop. I think it happened last summer, might even be two years ago at this point where a sheriff's deputy pulls over a driver and he speaks with him in rushing using the camera and it saves so much time and it gets to faster outcomes and faster intelligence. It's been a game changer. Stephen McDonnell: I was gonna go the other way. So that was good questioning. Emily McNulty: really? Okay. Stephen McDonnell: No, I I was gonna talk about the acquisitions with conversational AI that are happening between you guys and Moto, and then there's like three or four companies out there that we won't name that are all getting into the non-emergency game. Like take the conversational AI, take all the non-emergency calls that are coming into nine one one or at least a a good amount. Which we didn't re or I didn't realize, Wilmack did, how many non-emergency calls are going into nine one one, taking up precious space and time from the people that should be taking the emergency calls. But what do you see in that industry? Ha in that specific niche. obviously you guys made a big acquisition, Moto made a big acquisition. There's still a couple lone players out there that are all backed by BCs and like heavy money. It's not like bootstrap guys. so it is popular AI, I would say. What's your view on that and where it's going in public safety? Adam Hassan: Yeah, it's interesting. think the best technology is technology that you don't notice. It's just technology that just blends away and becomes part of your day-to-day life. We're still at a point where when dealing with AI, especially in voice systems, you can still tell that you're dealing with AI. It is not quite at the point where it doesn't seem like a person. Now, Is it good enough to fool your grandparents and to sending money to the wrong people? Yeah. So you got to educate your family, make sure that they know the risks. But as a seamless user experience, I think there's still room to grow. And I think that's what's going to happen next. for AI to be effective, we have all these different surfaces, work surfaces that we use. So calls and as a modality or one. And we're going to start to see that more and more of those workloads can be moved into that type of conversational AI, where as opposed to directing people to other resources or other systems, you're going to start to see systems that can fulfill requests all the way through to completion by being tied into the right set of serious systems with the right set of parameters. Stephen McDonnell: So you do you think there's a future where they the the AI can actually answer true emergency calls or do you think it'll just stay a non emergency? Adam Hassan: Any question like that, got to quantify with time period. So over what period of time? I'd say within five years, the technology would be capable Stephen McDonnell: Mm-hmm. Adam Hassan: of taking a 911 call and organizing the resources and providing the fulfillment layer. But that's from a technology feasibility lens. from a implementation, governance, cultural lens, I don't think we're anywhere close to that. don't think in five years, I think we're still gonna have humans taking calls Stephen McDonnell: Humans too. Adam Hassan: because it's, on the worst day of a person's life, you Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adam Hassan: don't want them talking to a machine. Emily McNulty: Right. Right. Yeah. There's like you kind you called out the cultural winds. There's a whole perspective already around AI that that could could challenge that and nine one one and public safety is already under a lot of scrutiny. Like it's not necessarily we we don't want to add that fuel to the fire, maybe quite yet. but yeah, I guess Steve, before I I move on from the AI conversation, is there anything else you wanted to ask Adam on on the topic? Stephen McDonnell: No, I mean I'm I'm interested, I know we don't have much time left on the the angel investor side of things. We we bring on a lot of Emily McNulty: Yeah, that's what I wanted to go into next. Yeah. Stephen McDonnell: local Rochester business people that do that type of thing. So when this popped up, we we love to ask questions and inquire about it. Hopefully you you enjoy talking about it as well. so I think that's an awesome topic we if we wanna hit on quickly. Emily McNulty: Yeah, I guess I'll I'll start Adam by asking like how did that side of your life develop? Like how did you get interested in angel investing? Adam Hassan: Yeah. So a few years ago, a friend of mine who was a very senior executive at one of our pension organizations, he left his, his finance job and he went to a startup and that's where we reconnected. And I got to be one of the early investors in his company. And I'm very happy that the company has increased in valuation since then. And so Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adam Hassan: my My thesis when investing is not a very sophisticated one. Predominantly, I look to support the people I know personally who have a track record of excellence in delivering because that's as close to a sure thing as it comes. And then if I were to go out one. rung further, then I look at spaces where I have an edge where I have some unique combination of experience or expertise and then back companies in that space as well. And it's my favorite way to light money on fire. Stephen McDonnell: It's it's Emily McNulty: Cold it, clip it. Stephen McDonnell: a f it's fun though, right? I mean a and you get to learn all sorts about you feel like Adam Hassan: yeah. yeah. Stephen McDonnell: you're you're in it more, your hands Adam Hassan: yeah. Stephen McDonnell: are on the in the industry and seeing it from an other perspective than your day to day at AXA. Yeah. Adam Hassan: 100%. 100%. And listen, nothing teaches you like a $25,000 dog. Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: I'll teach you quick. That will, but you know, one of the things that I'm really proud of is that I've never approached angel investing like some type of crappy PE thesis. Anybody that I've backed, I've backed because they have a vision. It's a long shot, but it's a vision worth investing in. And so far I'm very happy with the progress of how most of them have gone. And you know, as far as dogs go, I don't, I only have the one. So, so far it's okay. Emily McNulty: Cool, very cool. That that's an interesting hobby. But also too, Adam, like I know it mentioned too you focus like your advisory work on more regulated. Markets. Is there any reason in particular you you leaned more towards those? Is it because you work more frequently with those types of markets? Yeah. Adam Hassan: yeah. Yeah. technology is only one piece of the job that we're doing. The other piece is understanding how to work with government, how to be good partners, how to understand the constraints that they're dealing with and work with them to find winning outcomes for everybody involved. And that process it's, it's not easy, but it can be simple, but you have to commit to it. You have to make sure that you think with a long enough horizon in mind so that you make the correct investments to do business with government. Emily McNulty: Appreciate sharing that. Steve, before I start to wrap up our conversation with Adam, are there any other questions you'd like to ask him? Stephen McDonnell: No, I guess just that thanks Adam, appreciate it. Great to have you on. And overall, I guess, and this is a we're we're not supposed to be asking broad questions, but this is gonna be super broad. Where in public safety in the next two years do you think AI will have the biggest impact? Adam Hassan: I would say that today public safety suffers from a very self-inflicted problem with respect to the technology they purchased over the last 30 years. So there's a variety of products that have share a brand name, but they are all bespoke versions of software under the hood. So one customer can have product X, another customer can have product X, but at some point they customize their software to a point. where they're sitting on an island. And so as a result, upgrades and feature requests take months, if not years. So the way I see AI having a tremendous impact on that is the day of legacy migrations, I think are coming to an end. It's, listen, I mean, I started doing migrations at WillMac. They were tough and they're time consuming and a lot goes wrong. And a lot of those late nights and those party calls were for those migrations. Stephen McDonnell: Yeah. Adam Hassan: Now AI puts us in a position where you don't have to migrate data. You can export your data as is. You can transform it on demand and then you can load it as needed. So the time and the complexity that goes into managing all these one-off data sources that has been flattened tremendously. And now AI is going to allow our customers to really mine those different data sources for intelligence. without having to stand up a dedicated analytics team in a complicated migration. Stephen McDonnell: Awesome. Emily McNulty: So Adam, before I I share with our listeners how they can connect with you, I guess are there any initiatives or programs that you're a part of or a a greater message that you'd like to share with our listeners before we close? Adam Hassan: Yeah, please volunteer in your local community. I'm a big fan of Scouts Canada. I've been a registered Scouter with Scouts Canada for the last five years. And there's nothing greater than giving your time to your own community. So I strongly recommend Scouting or Girlguiding and, and I encourage everybody to spend a few hours a week making your home better. Emily McNulty: Great final message and very, very much something that we we believe in and reinforce at Wilmac. So thank you for sharing that, Adam. Thank you for for dedicating six, seven years of of time at our company. We really appreciate it. I I'm sad that I I missed it. I came in too late. But anyway, we really appreciate appreciate you joining us on the Wilmac wire, Adam. And for our listeners, if you'd like to follow along with Adam or what he's doing, you can find him on LinkedIn at Adam Hassan. His link will be in our episode description. So Adam, thanks for joining us on the Will Mac Wire. We really appreciate it. Adam Hassan: Thanks for having me. Stephen McDonnell: Thanks Adam, I appreciate it. Adam Hassan: Bye Steve, take care.