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BONE-CHILLING BRYAN KOHBERGER DETAILS EMERGE/ Best of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, bone chilling Brian Coburger details emerge.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: being with us.
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  Speaker 2: Bombshell, a new tell old book reveals a bone chilling
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  Speaker 2: theory on Idaho murder suspect Brian Coburger. Author Howard Bloom
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  Speaker 2: joins Crime Stories for an exclusive interview.
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  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom is joining us right now from Manhattan along
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  Speaker 1: with an all star panel to dissect what we know
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  Speaker 1: and what we are learning from Howard Bloom, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I have poured over every document, every search warrant, every return,
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  Speaker 1: every witness statement that I could get my mints on.
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  Speaker 1: I have flown to Idaho, to Moscow, Idaho in the
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  Speaker 1: midst of winter and trows through the snow to look
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  Speaker 1: at the scene as best as I could to drive
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  Speaker 1: the route I believe, yeah, good times freezing, then got
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  Speaker 1: in an suv at night in the pitch dark at
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  Speaker 1: the time I believe Brian Coberger left that crime scene
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  Speaker 1: and started his securitiest route ah the word hours drive
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  Speaker 1: to his apartment at nearby Washington State University of Pullman,
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  Speaker 1: which should have been about an eight minute drive, and
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  Speaker 1: somewhere along the way, he turns a cell phone by
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  Speaker 1: con that said, after all that, I still learned so
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  Speaker 1: much from reading Howard Bloom's book The Name when the
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  Speaker 1: Night Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders. Wow,
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  Speaker 1: even the title made me stop and in the midst
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  Speaker 1: of everything we all do in regular life, you know, working,
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  Speaker 1: your children, your cat, dog.
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  Speaker 3: Your mom.
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  Speaker 1: I managed to finish this book in one day. I
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  Speaker 1: practically could not put it down. I had it in
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  Speaker 1: two forms. I printed out what I had and had
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  Speaker 1: it on my iPad so I could look at it
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  Speaker 1: no matter where I was. Howard Bloom, It's amazing you
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  Speaker 1: had me sitting in the Costco parking lot in the
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  Speaker 1: heat reading your book, trying to get to the next
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  Speaker 1: chapter before I came back home.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I appreciate that. I'm very kind.
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  Speaker 5: You're sitting in a room as an author, and you
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  Speaker 5: wonder if anyone will read what you write, meant to
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  Speaker 5: hear someone talk about it so graciously. I'm very plattered,
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  Speaker 5: So thank you.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I've never been accused of being kind before, so
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  Speaker 1: I will take that with a box of salt. I
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  Speaker 1: want to get right to it. There's so much in
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  Speaker 1: your book. I had to take copious notes, so I'll.
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  Speaker 3: Just start at the beginning.
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  Speaker 1: It was an amazing intro, and I was struck by
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  Speaker 1: the fact that you start your book from Coburger's father's.
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  Speaker 3: Point of view.
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  Speaker 1: And what I learned about his father really touched my heart.
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  Speaker 3: How he never got to go to college.
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  Speaker 1: And he was so proud of Brian Coburger and was
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  Speaker 1: already referring to him as doctor Coburger amongst his coworkers.
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  Speaker 1: And it reminded me so much, howard of my father,
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  Speaker 1: how he didn't get we're first generation college and when
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  Speaker 1: I got through law school, in his mind, it was
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  Speaker 1: the most amazing thing ever, so proud. Right now, here's
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  Speaker 1: my question with that lead up. Almost at the beginning,
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  Speaker 1: his father and his family, Coburger's family suspected him of
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  Speaker 1: being the killer.
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  Speaker 3: I found that just.
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  Speaker 1: I was dubstruck because you know, when I read about
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  Speaker 1: a crime, I don't immediately think, oh, my son did that.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, I've never thought that. Tell me you're thinking,
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  Speaker 1: and why you say that.
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  Speaker 4: Michael Koberger makes this trip out to see his son,
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  Speaker 4: to make the ride back with him. You know, this
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  Speaker 4: is a twenty eight year old man, and his father
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  Speaker 4: is worried about him. He's making this trip, it's fatiguing,
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  Speaker 4: it's expensive, but he's worried about his son. He's sitting
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  Speaker 4: next to him in this car, shoulder to shoulder. He
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  Speaker 4: knows the police are looking for a wife handed. And
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  Speaker 4: one of the first things he realizes when he meets
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  Speaker 4: his son is that his son's mood is volatile. That's
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  Speaker 4: his first sign that Brian is in a state. He
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  Speaker 4: goes out to meet his son in Washington State, and
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  Speaker 4: he doesn't know which Brian he's goying to encounter, but
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  Speaker 4: that's his first sign. And he begins to see has
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  Speaker 4: the mood change and become deeper and more acerbic. He
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  Speaker 4: begins to wonder, Oh, my gosh, he begins to think
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  Speaker 4: the unthinkable. He begins to consider that his son could
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  Speaker 4: in fact be a murderer. And all this is building
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  Speaker 4: building in his mind, and he's afraid to go there,
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  Speaker 4: as any father would, but he's getting these clueses if
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  Speaker 4: you were following footsteps in the snow, and the footsteps
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  Speaker 4: are becoming bloodier and bloodier, and he now realizes could
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  Speaker 4: this really be true? And then all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 4: they're driving along in Indiana and they see police sirens
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  Speaker 4: in the back of the car, has to pull over,
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  Speaker 4: and he begins to feel what is going to happen next?
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  Speaker 1: Well, guys with me, Howard Bloom, who has literally written
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  Speaker 1: the book the name of the book, when the Night
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  Speaker 1: Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders, And
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  Speaker 1: I have learned so much more than way the public,
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  Speaker 1: have learned more than my sources have told me, by
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  Speaker 1: exhaustive research by Howard Bloom.
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  Speaker 3: You're looking right at him, Howard.
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  Speaker 1: You stated that these aren't your words, that you just
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  Speaker 1: covered this from what Coiberger's father stated to other people.
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  Speaker 1: What did he state about immediately suspecting here's his son
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  Speaker 1: was the killer.
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  Speaker 4: He went out to Idaho Washington State at the beginning
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  Speaker 4: with suspicions. You have to remember that, Michael, this is
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  Speaker 4: not his first trip out there. He even took his
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  Speaker 4: son out on the first trip in August when his
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  Speaker 4: from was just registering for school. He had real concerns
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  Speaker 4: about his son. Some was a former heroin attic, his
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  Speaker 4: son had psychological problems. At the same time, he wanted
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  Speaker 4: to believe, against gold hope that his son was changing,
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  Speaker 4: that his son had reinvented himself. He had come been
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  Speaker 4: a mediocre student and now he was in an excellent
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  Speaker 4: graduate program for criminology. And Michael wanted to believe that
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  Speaker 4: his son was going to get a PhD. He was
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  Speaker 4: going to be my doctor, Brian Coberger, and yet at
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  Speaker 4: the same time, in the back of his mind he
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  Speaker 4: was thinking the unthinkable. And then things just fall into place.
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  Speaker 4: There was a shooting at just blocks from where Brian
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  Speaker 4: lived as they were making this trip across country. A man,
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  Speaker 4: a former veteran, when berserk and took hostages in a
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  Speaker 4: student housing and a slat team had to come in
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  Speaker 4: and they killed him. And Michael Colberger, as he told
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  Speaker 4: people who spoke with me, began to feel that there
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  Speaker 4: was something just wrong in this part of the world.
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  Speaker 4: There were evil forces. That's how he put it at work.
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  Speaker 4: And his son was you know what.
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  Speaker 1: I've read a lot and investigated a lot about the
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  Speaker 1: family dynamics of Brian Coburger.
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  Speaker 3: Listen.
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  Speaker 6: Brian Coberger's family members are concerned about Brian's behavior prior
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  Speaker 6: to his arrest. Author Howard Bloom says one of Coberger's
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  Speaker 6: sisters confronts their father about the possibility that Brian Coberger
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  Speaker 6: is involved in the Moscow murders, but Michael Coberger apparently
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  Speaker 6: brushes off their concerns. Bloom says Michael Coberger is on
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  Speaker 6: edge when he picks up his son to drive back
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  Speaker 6: from Washington to Pennsylvania, claiming the senior Coburger has seen
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  Speaker 6: the headlines. He knows four students are killed twelve miles
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  Speaker 6: from his son's house, and according to Bloom, Michael Coberger
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  Speaker 6: knows what a troubled son he has.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, joining me an all star panel.
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  Speaker 1: In addition to this incredible author Howard Bloom Howard, I
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  Speaker 1: noticed that one of the points of contention was about
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  Speaker 1: the route. And when I was driving that route from
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  Speaker 1: the King Road murder scene back to his apartment in Pullman.
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  Speaker 1: At Pullman, I was wondering why he did that, Why
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  Speaker 1: he drove an hour in the middle of the night.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm sure you know there's no street lights, it's
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  Speaker 1: incres pitched black, and you only ran off the road
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  Speaker 1: a couple of times when a semi would come by.
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  Speaker 3: But he basically did the same thing with his dad.
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  Speaker 1: The dad flies out, does a quick turnaround, he's exhausted,
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  Speaker 1: he gets in the launcher with his son and the
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  Speaker 1: Sun refuses to go the direct and much shorter route.
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  Speaker 1: Do you think that had anything to do with Coburger
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  Speaker 1: believing he was being followed or monitored.
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  Speaker 4: I think Coburger, being a criminology student, was trying to
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  Speaker 4: take precautions at this point. I don't think he had
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  Speaker 4: any belief or any knowledge that he was being followed. However,
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  Speaker 4: he was trying to be circumspecced. He was trying to
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  Speaker 4: be one step smarter than the authorities.
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  Speaker 1: Again, in addition to Howard Bloom now preeminent author, an
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  Speaker 1: All Star panel and I want to go out to
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  Speaker 1: Chris McDonough joining us, the director of the Cold Case Foundation,
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  Speaker 1: former homicide detective, host on the Interview Room on YouTube, who,
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  Speaker 1: like me, like Howard, has seen the evidence, has walked the.
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  Speaker 3: Scene, very familiar with the air.
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  Speaker 1: Yet, Chris mcdona, You've had a lot of homicide cases
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  Speaker 1: and very often family members know their son is a killer, but.
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  Speaker 3: They will never admit it.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about Coburger's dad, who knew he had
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  Speaker 1: suspicious at the beginning, his son was a quadruple killer.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, and Nancy, I think what happens is write that
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  Speaker 7: parental you know, tendency kicks in a relationship to they
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  Speaker 7: want to believe it, but they don't necessarily want.
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  Speaker 4: To believe it.
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  Speaker 7: And so it's kind of a you know, a tug
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  Speaker 7: and pull from a parental physician.
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  Speaker 4: However, in this particular case, it's obvious.
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  Speaker 7: Dad had his radar was way up and had taken
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  Speaker 7: that trip to go out and pick up his son.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, think about it, Chris, and let me
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  Speaker 1: throw this to doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us
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  Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com.
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  Speaker 3: Have you ever seen parents at.
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  Speaker 1: Tiptoe around their child all the time that they're just
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  Speaker 1: waiting for an exploit? And when I was reading the
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  Speaker 1: first chapter in Howard's book, When the Night Comes.
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  Speaker 3: Falling, you could feel the tension of the.
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  Speaker 1: Father in the car with Coburger on this long drive,
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  Speaker 1: just waiting for an explosion. But we got to keep
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  Speaker 1: in mind the dad, Michael Coburger, has spent his whole
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  Speaker 1: life trying to prop up support help Brian Coburger, so
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  Speaker 1: he knew it was like walking through a minefield. Anything
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  Speaker 1: could make him explode. And when Coburger insisted on this
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  Speaker 1: secuitous route, which took hours and hours longer than I
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  Speaker 1: direct route. He went, okay, fine, you're the boss. Those
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  Speaker 1: are the words the father used to Coburger.
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  Speaker 8: Well, sure, because Nancy, the last thing he was going
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  Speaker 8: to do was confront this guy. Because I have to
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  Speaker 8: wonder if the father, if the father knew all of this.
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  Speaker 8: Was the father a little bit terrified of what could
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  Speaker 8: set Brian off, and possibly was the father's life in
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  Speaker 8: danger at the point, because apparently Brian was agitated at
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  Speaker 8: this time. I wonder if the circuitous route had anything
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  Speaker 8: to do with some sort of OCD kind of disorder
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  Speaker 8: that this guy has.
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  Speaker 1: Howard bloom You also described Brian Koberger his Heroin habit,
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  Speaker 1: how he got into Heroin and when he managed to
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  Speaker 1: kick Heroin after his father turned him in for stealing
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  Speaker 1: the sister's phone and he had to go into some
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  Speaker 1: sort of a rehabit treatment to get his life straight.
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  Speaker 1: He kicked Heroin and decided his body was a temple,
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  Speaker 1: and that is when he became a vegetarian. And I
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  Speaker 1: had wondered where that started, because now he's demanding certain
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  Speaker 1: types of meals behind bars and he's getting them. And
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  Speaker 1: I remember an anecdote where the family couldn't cook with
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  Speaker 1: certain pots and pants because they had once cooked meat.
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  Speaker 3: I'm working up to it.
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  Speaker 1: You revealed that Coburger had two types of plasticery after
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  Speaker 1: he loses one hundred pounds.
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  Speaker 3: What were they?
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  Speaker 4: Brian Coberg is intent and this is the admirable part
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  Speaker 4: of him. He's trying to reinvent himself. He comes out
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  Speaker 4: of this depressing, hard scrabble existence, a family with two bankruptcies.
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  Speaker 4: He's going to hard scrabble high school. His father is
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  Speaker 4: a janitor at the high school. He's sort of embarrassed
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  Speaker 4: by that. He becomes a heroin addict and yet, to
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  Speaker 4: his credit, he works himself out of this. He then
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  Speaker 4: wants to he's trying to approach girls at high school.
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  Speaker 4: They're ignoring him. He loses the weight and he still
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  Speaker 4: has this sort of flesh that's going over his midsection,
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  Speaker 4: and it's just not the sort of guy he wants
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  Speaker 4: to be. He wants to be a player, he wants
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  Speaker 4: to be one of the cool guys, and he thinks,
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  Speaker 4: so he has this surgery. These two surgeries are covered
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  Speaker 4: by insurance, and he reinvents himself. He's in good shape,
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  Speaker 4: as you can see him in the photographs. He works out,
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  Speaker 4: he does martial arts, and he still tries to become
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  Speaker 4: the man he wants to be.
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  Speaker 3: The plastic surgeries.
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  Speaker 4: He has these two plastic surgeries to get over his midsection.
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  Speaker 4: So there's not this sort of envelope.
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  Speaker 1: Powered you're so polite, Okay, you outline it in your book.
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  Speaker 1: He had two surgeries, one of them being an abdominoplasty
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  Speaker 1: and the other you know what they're long. Let me
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  Speaker 1: rephrase list. You described two plastic surgeries that Brian Koberger has.
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  Speaker 1: Both of them, I believe were a were related to
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  Speaker 1: removing flaps of skin left over from the one hundred
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  Speaker 1: plus pound weight loss, a flap of skin and tissue
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  Speaker 1: that went down over his private parts and his lower stomach.
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  Speaker 1: He wanted to get rid of that, and when he
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: did get rid of that through plastic surgery, he had
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  Speaker 1: a serious body is the.
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  Speaker 3: Way I take it from your book is that what happened.
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  Speaker 4: That's exactly what happened. He had this vision that he
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: would become a new Brian Coburger, and the tragedy is
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  Speaker 4: he almost succeeded. He gets out to Washington State a
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  Speaker 4: new man and he's trying to live a new life,
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  Speaker 4: and yet he's pulled back in to what he always is.
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  Speaker 4: To his ass and side believe.
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  Speaker 6: Brian Coberger allegedly enters the home and walks past the
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  Speaker 6: first rooms he sees coming into the Moscow, Idaho house,
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  Speaker 6: and goes straight up a narrow staircase and turns directly
• 15:37
  Speaker 6: into the room of his target, Madison Mogan. Author Howard
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: Bloom says investigators believe Matti Mogan is the target and
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  Speaker 6: her best friend Kaylegan's office is killed because she's in
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  Speaker 6: the room with Mogan.
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  Speaker 2: Did Brian Cooberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new
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  Speaker 2: book suggests family knew more than they ever let on
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  Speaker 2: about their troubled son. Author Howard Bloom tells us more.
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  Speaker 1: Guys joining me is the author Howard Bloom, author of
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  Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho
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  Speaker 1: student murders.
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  Speaker 3: Howard Bloom has gone where many have.
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  Speaker 1: Not tediously investigating everything about this case, and the book
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  Speaker 1: is full of revelations. We were just describing how Coberger's
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: own family thought at the get go, before he was
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: ever named a suspect or even a pay person. Of
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: interest that he committed the quadruple murders. And in this vein,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: can you imagine Coburger's father, so proud of his son
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  Speaker 1: getting his PhD, flies out to Washington to drive Coburger
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  Speaker 1: back home to the Poconos area for Thanksgiving. And he's
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: sitting there for all these hours in this white Elantra,
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  Speaker 1: which of course he knows has been named in the case,
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  Speaker 1: and looking over at his son who was acting more
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: and more. Alla tile, But I want to move on
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  Speaker 1: to the next point.
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  Speaker 3: Listen.
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  Speaker 6: In a shocking revelation, author Howard Bloom claims Brian Coberger
• 17:07
  Speaker 6: is not a random spree killer. He had one target
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  Speaker 6: in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: in their home off campus in Moscow, Idaho. Bloom says
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: investigators believe in a non targeted attack, the killer would
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: have stopped at the first door inside the house. It
• 17:20
  Speaker 6: would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: after gaining entry, But that isn't what happened. Investigators point
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk,
• 17:29
  Speaker 6: as proof Coburger is after a specific target.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: You know, you really back your theory up with a
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: lot of facts and the way they're laid out it
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: makes perfect sense.
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  Speaker 3: But all along it has been believed, it has been.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Accepted that Killy Goldsolves was the target, the original target,
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  Speaker 1: and the others were just collateral damage.
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  Speaker 4: But you say no, why, Well, at this point, Haley
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  Speaker 4: is not even living in the house, She's living up
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: north with her family. She's going to graduate at the
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: end of the termined in December, and Brian really wouldn't
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  Speaker 4: have come in contact with her necessarily. But he did
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: go to the Mad Greek restaurant in downtown Moscow. It
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: sort of vegan food which he liked, which he would
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  Speaker 4: adhere to strictly, and Maddie was a waitress there. And
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  Speaker 4: my belief is that they encountered one another in the
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: restaurant or any words said, did they have a conversation.
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  Speaker 4: I don't think that was necessary. You know, both the
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: prosecution and the defense have said for the record that
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: there was no interaction between Brian Coburger and any of
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: the victims. They did not follow any of them on
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: social media to their knowledge, never had any real conversations
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  Speaker 4: with them. But Brian was a man whose life was
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: sort of determined by obsessions determined such as being a
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: dick it to heroin such as losing one hundred pounds,
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: which as deciding to become the best student after being
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: a mediocre student. And I think once he saw Maddie
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: for whatever reasons, I mean, she's an attractive, blonde woman, charming, bibacious,
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  Speaker 4: at juliant, he becomes interested in her, and I think
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  Speaker 4: his fixation he would see the parties he would be
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: I believe, on the periphery of events, as parties were
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: hosted at this house on King Road, a party house,
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  Speaker 4: and he would look at that and he felt it
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  Speaker 4: was in some ways a constant rebuke to the life
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  Speaker 4: that he was leading and the life he wanted to live.
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  Speaker 4: He could never be a part of that, and he decided,
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: in his rage, in his mania, I believe, to do
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: something about it. And when he entered the house that night,
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: and he goes in through the kitchen, he passes two bedrooms,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: the bedroom where Xana is with Ethan and also the
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: bedroom where Dylaan is. He doesn't stop. He goes up
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: up a flight, which isn't your natural inclination, into Maddie's
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: room and he finds her, but he's surprised to see
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: that Kaylee is there. He had no idea that as
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: she's sleeping over that she's staying for the weekend, she'd
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: come to town to show up at her new car.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: She's just gotten a used range Rover, and she was
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: very proud of it and excited by it, and she
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: wanted to share that with her friends. And he discovers
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: Maddie and then kills her. Caylee fights back, climbs out
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: of the bed, just pressed against the wall, and he
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: kills her, and Hayley is collateral damage when he goes downstairs.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: The two other victims are collateral damage too.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me is a now
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: same professor of forensics Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: a star of a hit series Body Bags with Joe
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. But for my purposes, and most importantly, he
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: is a quote death investigator who has investigated.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: Over one thousand deaths. Joe Scott Morgan, you and I.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Have gone over the evidence, both on air and off,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: trying to determine who was the target. First of all,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter who was the target, because they were.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: All for murdered.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: But the reason we were looking for this needle in
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: a haystack is to determine if we knew the target,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: we could better figure out who was the perpetrator.
• 21:48
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: So you're hearing what Howard Bloom outlines in his chapter fifteen,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: and I think this may be dispositive from your point
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of view. The attacks on ghost solves versus Maddy Mogan.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: They are very revealing.
• 22:07
  Speaker 9: Explain the very revealing because of the level of violence
• 22:11
  Speaker 9: I think that's involved here. You've got these two victims
• 22:15
  Speaker 9: that are contained in that bedroom up there. And I
• 22:17
  Speaker 9: got to tell you, based upon what Howard is saying,
• 22:22
  Speaker 9: the idea that this individual Coburger allegedly knew where to
• 22:27
  Speaker 9: go in this house, because as you well know, you
• 22:30
  Speaker 9: stood outside that house, Nancy, it's a very confusing layout.
• 22:35
  Speaker 9: You would have to have specific knowledge of where her
• 22:39
  Speaker 9: room would be at that particular time. Now, the fact
• 22:42
  Speaker 9: that there was another occupant in there, maybe that's the
• 22:45
  Speaker 9: case and he was surprised by that, But it goes
• 22:48
  Speaker 9: to this idea of I would like to try to
• 22:51
  Speaker 9: understand if he had scoped this place out for a
• 22:53
  Speaker 9: particular period of time. Also, this kind of dovetails with
• 22:57
  Speaker 9: what Howard had said as well, that he saw parties
• 23:02
  Speaker 9: going on and that this is kind of a projection
• 23:05
  Speaker 9: he understands the life in there. There was a real
• 23:07
  Speaker 9: chilling video that came up, I don't know about a
• 23:10
  Speaker 9: year ago. I don't know if you guys recall this,
• 23:13
  Speaker 9: of them the occupants of that house, actually giving internal
• 23:17
  Speaker 9: views of that in a TikTok video. It made my
• 23:20
  Speaker 9: skin crawl as a dad and as a college professor,
• 23:23
  Speaker 9: because the individual that's seeing this can see the layout
• 23:27
  Speaker 9: inside of that, inside of that structure, which I think
• 23:30
  Speaker 9: that we can all agree is kind of peculiar, to
• 23:32
  Speaker 9: say the very least.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, you can't have it both ways, Joe Scott Morgan
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: or you Howard Bloom, do I dare to call you
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: on the carpet after you've.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Literally written the book we can't have.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: He's full of rage and goes after these girls because
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: he can't have them. He can't have the party life,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: the popularity, the thing he's been seeking since he lost
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: that one hundred pounds and had those two plastic surgeries.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: It's not happening for him. You can't have the rage.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Plus and I really like the way you laid this
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: out and trying to Ah, here we go. Near the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: beginning of your book, you talk about Brian Coburger delving
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: into quote the criminal mind and will be a quote scientist.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Exploring why criminals do what they do.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: It's been kicked around that his motive, not that the
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: state needs to prove a motive.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: They don't, but jury's like to hear it.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: So practically speaking, you better hand one over on a
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: silver platter on top of the Christmas tree.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: You can't have him full of rage and.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Methodically trying to carry out the perfect murder and get
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: away with it very calmly and methodically.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: So which one is it? What about it? Bloom?
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: He was filled with mania, which is not the same
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: thing as rage, And you're trying to understand make a
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: rational explanation for completely irrational acts. What Brian Coberger tried
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: to do that night is to commit I believe the
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: perfect crime. I believe he wanted to get Maddie, he
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: wanted to kill her, and then once he gets into
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: the house, once he finds another girl there, all his
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: plans fall apart. That's why he leaves the knife sheet behind.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: He did think things out. As the police well know,
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: there wasn't any blood, a trail of blood left by
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: the perpetrator in the house. All they had was the
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: touch DNA on the knife sheet. There was no trail
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: of blood going up the hill or where a car
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: was parked. He To this day they have not found
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: the murder weapon. To this day, they have not found
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: any clothes covered with blood from that house. And the
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: house was filled with blood. We've all seen the pictures
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: of the rivulets of blood leaking out from the foundation
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: of the house. So he did have some planning. He
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: knew enough. He thought to turn off his phone from
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: two forty seven to four forty eight for those two
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: hours when the murders were taking place, and he was
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: getting me say hey, hey.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey, Howard Bloom, you're the fire hydrant. You're
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: giving me the information faster than I can take it in.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I can't drink from a fire hydrant. You've got to
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: give it to me teaspoon by teaspoon. And I'm telling
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: you this book amazing. But Brian C. Stewart joining me,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us who practices in this jurisdiction
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: as well as in Utah.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Brian, I hear what Howard is saying, I hear.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: What Joe Scott Morgan is saying, and I've got to agree,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I empathize.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: I get both the theories.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: The reality is the state never has to prove a motive,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: but your ours want to hear a motive. So do
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you believe that in this case Josey's trial, which it is,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: despite the defense dragging their feet and dragging.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: The judge along with them, he's going along with it.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Do you believe the state has to pick a theory
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: as to motive because these two were not consistent, or
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: are they rage versus method?
• 27:07
  Speaker 10: Well, motive can be an important part of the circumstantial
• 27:10
  Speaker 10: evidence that leads a jury to understand why a perpetrator
• 27:14
  Speaker 10: commits a crime, But as you said, it's not necessary
• 27:18
  Speaker 10: to prove that they committed the crime. Here, you know
• 27:21
  Speaker 10: where Brian Colberger seems like somebody who's studying criminal justice
• 27:25
  Speaker 10: and perhaps sees himself as the smartest person in the
• 27:29
  Speaker 10: room or a narcissist. His motivation may be to commit
• 27:32
  Speaker 10: the perfect crime, and he would know that choosing someone
• 27:36
  Speaker 10: in another city who he doesn't have a relationship with
• 27:39
  Speaker 10: would create a lot of distance between him and the
• 27:42
  Speaker 10: potential victim. That's the first thing that police look for
• 27:44
  Speaker 10: his relationships.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: In a murder.
• 27:48
  Speaker 10: And he might have chosen Maddie as someone who's young
• 27:52
  Speaker 10: and blond and beautiful and might get him a lot
• 27:54
  Speaker 10: of notoriety as he evades justice. And so if that's
• 27:59
  Speaker 10: his motivation, that could certainly be the reason why he
• 28:03
  Speaker 10: chose somebody and doesn't have necessarily rage for Maddie, but
• 28:06
  Speaker 10: has raged for the system, or mania, as Harold says,
• 28:12
  Speaker 10: to beat the system.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: What happened the Fateful Night of the University of Idaho
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: for Murderous New Theories revealed in a special episode with
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: author Howard Bloom.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: And joining us.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom has meticulously investigated so many facts of the
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: case that we didn't know about, including Coburger's past, how
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: he lost one hundred pounds and had two different plastic
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: surgeries to remove a flap of skin from his stomach
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: that went down over his genitals.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: He didn't want that look.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: He lost one hundred pounds on his own, had two
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: plastic surgeries to reinvent himself as a modern day Adonis.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: But according to his friends what I'm reading when the
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Night comes falling. His friends didn't like how that transformation
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: changed his personality. He became, I know it all, very
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: aggressive and that was born out at Washington State University.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: He treated his friends in high school that way. After
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: he got his new.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Look, he became in his mind the it guy, but
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: somehow he couldn't pull it off. What if anything, did
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: that have to do with the murders of four beautiful
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: University Idaho's students. Okay, you know, to this old panel,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: including Howard Bloom joining us, I've got to have more
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: than what Joe Scott Morgan is telling me that the
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: attack on Kelly was much more savage than the attack
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: on Matty Mogan. Why all four of them were brutally
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: stabbed dead? I need to know who is my target?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: And in this book Bloom describes a blood trail. He
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: also describes the blood literally leaking down the outside of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the house, which I observed when I went to Idaho.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: But that's it.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the blood evidence, Howard Bloom, What about
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: the blood evidence convinces you as to who the real
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: target was?
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: Well, one point that you've just made about the wounds
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: on Kayley being so severe. Kaylee brought back. She was
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: not She was originally in the bed with Maddie. She
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: gets up from the bed, the room is very narrow.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: She tries to get towards the wall, but she's trapped
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: by Coburger and she's fighting back, and she is not
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: dying easily. It's a very violent death. And he's enraged
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: that he even has. I believe that he had to
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: encounter her. He did not expect her, and to find
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: this woman fighting back like a tiger is putting him
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: in his mania, is exacerbating the situation. He thought he
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: would go in there and kill Maddie, who was her
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: presence rebuked him. I think that's what was going on
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: that night in that house, Nancy.
• 31:21
  Speaker 7: So there's a couple of things that you know from
• 31:24
  Speaker 7: my think thought process in this one is you know
• 31:29
  Speaker 7: that Evening Colberger he's he's I don't think he's manic, depressive,
• 31:34
  Speaker 7: or in a manic state in any way, shape or form.
• 31:36
  Speaker 7: My personal opinion, I think he's very organized. He selected
• 31:41
  Speaker 7: his target set on purpose. And the reason I feel
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: that way, there's a couple of things. One is both
• 31:48
  Speaker 7: Madison and Kayley, they're attached it to him from you know,
• 31:54
  Speaker 7: elementary school they go through, they select the same college,
• 31:58
  Speaker 7: they have the same kind of birthday party together. They're
• 32:01
  Speaker 7: in the exact same house. And that evening, when Coberger
• 32:05
  Speaker 7: pulls up, if he's our guy, he's got to see
• 32:09
  Speaker 7: her car. He's got to know, based on the surveillance
• 32:13
  Speaker 7: that he's been doing, that she potentially could be there
• 32:16
  Speaker 7: as well.
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: And so we have to now ask ourselves.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I disagree.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: I disagree because I don't know that Coburger knew about
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: her new car, Arrange Rover that was new and well,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: I mean it's he used vehicle.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: At this point, Kelly is not really living in the house.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: She's living at Court Dealine. She just comes in for
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: that weekend and he didn't know that. He didn't expect it.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: And when he's circling the house, he's I believe he's
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: not really doing that night three times he comes and goes.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: I believe he's not doing surveillance. I believe he's trying
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: to find the will inside himself to turn off the motor,
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: to stop the car, to climb downill and omit this crime.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: Each time he circles the house, it's not to see
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: what's going on. He doesn't even really notice the cars.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: But it's really an internal battle he's fighting. If you
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: had seen the cars, if you'd even seen the door
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: dash delivery, there was a DoorDash delivery at four am,
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: he might have reconsidered it. He was locked in, Howard.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Hold On, Howard Bloom, Howard Bloom, you were taking our
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: program down a big path. Now I guess you're joining
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: us from Manhattan that you have never been down a
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: pig path.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: But what a big path is.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: It's certainly not a direct line or goes in any
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: organized manner. It just goes all over the place. But
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: you know what, Howard Bloom, that's the way an investigation is.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: When I would sit around a table talking with investigators
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and witnesses other das one topic leads to another topic,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: leads to another topic, and it's hard to marshal your evidence,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: which you did a great job in your book doing.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: But guys, he brought up another thing, brought up.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Bloom brought up that cobroker circles the house three times.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: And yes, I'm going to get to that store clerk, who,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: in my mind, helped crack this case. Who you say
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: wants to remain anonymous, and I don't blame her. Long
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: story short, how did you confirm, Howard Bloom that a
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: white Elantra, our car similar to a white Elantra circled
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the King wrote address three times leading up to the
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: quadruple murder. How did you confirm that?
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: Well, part of it is in court documents and the
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: public affidavits. But I also spoke with the gas station
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: attendant who gave the surveillance video to the police too,
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: So a lot of that is public record. What is
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: not public record, clearly, is what was in the driver's
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: mind at that time as he was circling. Something. You
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: have to remember, in all of the surveillance videos, there's
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: not photograph of the license plate of the car. There's
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: not one photograph of the driver. You can't see who
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: it is holding the steering wheel. The FBI has tried
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: everything to try to pull a picture from inside the
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: car of who was driving that night, and they couldn't.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: So Coburger, I believe, was the man in that Hondai
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: a Lantra, and he was trying to find the will
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: to cross over into the man who was thinking about
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: this horrific crime to becoming the sort of man who
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: could commit it. And it was a difficult, difficult journey
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: he was taking internally that.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Night, families of the slain Idaho four victims await justice.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: As a judge, that's a date for trial.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that judge, many argue, is cow telling to
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: the defense. When are these families going to get justice?
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: That's a whole other can of worms with me. Howard Bloom,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the author of an incredible new book, When the Night
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Okay,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: all hands on deck to analyze what Howard Bloom was
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: telling us. Now, Howard Bloom, you crossed over into the
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: gas station video, which is later when I believe Coburger's
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: leaving the scene. I going to go back to you
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: stating in your book that you believe Coburger, a white
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Elantra circles the crime scene three times that we know
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: of before the murders occur.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: Now, not the gas station video you are telling me
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: that's caught on video?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Is it as you described at the end near the
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: end of chapter twenty, A guy who owns a rental complex,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I think three apartments a rental complex nearby, and he's
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: got a camera on top of the rental complex looking down.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Did his video catch the launtra circling three times before
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: the murders.
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: Yes, and in this video too, they still can't make
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: out a license plate. They still can't make out in
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: the darkness the driver, but they are able to make
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: out the car. When the FBI in Quantico is trying
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: to figure out from these videos what kind of car is,
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: they try three different times until they finally come up
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: with a Hondai Elanka from twenty eleven to twenty fifteen.
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: At first they thought it was just twenty eleven to
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: twenty thirteen. And that's one of the reasons why Brian
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: Colberger takes so long to find him, because they were
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: the authorities in Washington State were really looking for the
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: wrong car.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Hey, just got Morgan, and everybody jump in.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: I'm going to circle back to you, Brian Stewart about
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: MENSREA about intent.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: Is it even needed?
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Do we need explicit intent or is it implicit by
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the number of the killings that we have murder ones,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: of course we do. But I want to talk to
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: you about the legal theory before that just got Morgan.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: You hear Howard Bloom describing three times he circled that
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: we know of, and it's caught, I believe on the
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: top of that rental facility. There's a camera up on
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: the roofs and I looked everywhere when I was out there,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, I went very slowly, and it was
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: slippery and icy, and I fell more than once. I
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: looked all the way up and down the street for
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: surveillance videos.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: It's very narrow. I've told you this story.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I could sit on one side of the street, look
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: into the kitchen window across the street and tell you
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: what kind of liquid soap they had sitting on their
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: sink at the kitchen window.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: It's that close. I did not see the overhead surveillance
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: camera on that rental. It's on the roof. It's incredible.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Now he was talking about the FBI tried everything to
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: enhance the tag and the driver.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: How how what do they do to anhants.
• 38:55
  Speaker 9: They're washing this thing through various programs that they have
• 38:58
  Speaker 9: Nancy in order to try to and down the image
• 39:01
  Speaker 9: because it's I'm sure that it's very granulated, particularly given
• 39:06
  Speaker 9: the nighttime status of this where you're not going to
• 39:09
  Speaker 9: be able to pick up you know, without some kind
• 39:12
  Speaker 9: of light enhancement like an infrared or something like this
• 39:15
  Speaker 9: that'll be able to give you finer detail. So it's
• 39:17
  Speaker 9: going to be greatly compromised. And look, you know, you
• 39:21
  Speaker 9: have to think about the house itself. This house is
• 39:24
  Speaker 9: kind of shaded in darkness from the rear. You're not
• 39:27
  Speaker 9: going to see a lot there. There's not a lot.
• 39:29
  Speaker 9: It's not like being in a huge city where you've
• 39:31
  Speaker 9: got street lights that are all over the place that'll
• 39:33
  Speaker 9: be illuminating this environment. So it's going to be a
• 39:36
  Speaker 9: tough ask if you're thinking about attempting to get an
• 39:40
  Speaker 9: image that's capturable so that they can do what they
• 39:44
  Speaker 9: need to do in order to identify this individual.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Okay, Ted Scott, just please stop. You know what I
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: can see.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: I can see a tiny little crater on the moon,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: but I can't get the tag number or the visage
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: of Coburger's fail.
• 40:00
  Speaker 9: Why because these houses don't have the Hubble telescope on them.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: Nobody likes it, smart alec or I know what all,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: Joe Scott.
• 40:07
  Speaker 9: Well, you're the cameras that you're talking about. They're not
• 40:11
  Speaker 9: the highest of quality. I mean, look, I mean here
• 40:13
  Speaker 9: turned out every single day, they're in shops all over
• 40:15
  Speaker 9: the place. It doesn't mean that it's going to be
• 40:18
  Speaker 9: a great quality.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Did Brian Koberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: book suggests family knew more than they ever let on
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: about their troubled son.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: Howard Bloom.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: His book is so talk full of evidence and facts
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: supporting what many of us have been thinking and pondering,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: and so much more.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: When the night comes falling my Howard Bloom.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Howard, we were just talking to Joe Scott Morgan about
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: why the FBI could not enhance.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: That video better than it did? I get it, But
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: I heard you saying something in the background.
• 40:54
  Speaker 9: What was that?
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: Well, not only couldn't they enhance the video, the FBI
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: has this program developed really for anti terrorism activities, and
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: they tried three different times to analyze the car, and
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: they got three different years. Originally they had the car
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: was not a HONDEI a Lantra. They made a Nissan CenTra,
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: and then finally there was a twenty eleven, and then
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: it's twenty thirteen, and then they finally played at the
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: end said twenty eleven to twenty fifteen. I can assure
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: you the FBI's fumblings will come up in court. I'm
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: sure the fence will raise this and try to impugne
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: the identification of the car.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: the FBI fumbling, I don't see them fumbling here.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: What do you mean by that?
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: Well, fumbling in the sense that their technology was just
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: not up to snuff and they gave declarations. The first
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: original be on the lookout notice was not for a
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: twenty to fifteen HONDEI Alantra. It was for a twenty
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: eleven Honde Alundra.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: How old on.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom you mentioned a detail, and I'm not sure
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: if you thought I was just going to ignore it
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: or didn't catch it, But you said the FBI.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: Was trying to enhance. They tried it three times, I
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: believe you said.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: But are you referring to the type of video surveillance
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: that was ultimately introduced in the Kyle Rittenhouse case, where
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: we had satellite surveillance from nearly nine thousand seat in
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: the air to figure out what really happened and there
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: was video. Did the FBI go to the extent of
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: grabbing SAT video This was much more rudimentary.
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: What they had was the surveillance photograph and they tried
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: to enhance it. These were grainy photographs, and they thought
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: they run them through this machine, this process, this computer
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: program that was developed at vast expense by the Department
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: of Defense and Homeland Security, originally for terrorism activities, and
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: they thought they could get the identity of the car,
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: and then they passed it out in their original be
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: on the lookout at the Moscow police sent nationwide for
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: a twenty eleven to twenty thirteen Conde Alandra. That was
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: a mistake. That wasn't the year of the car they
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: ultimately decided was Coberg.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case and Nancy Grace.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: What happened the Fateful Night of the University of Idaho
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: author Howard Bloom.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us with us, Author Howard
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Bloom has just come out with an incredible book full
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Coberg in
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: fact murdered four young University Idaho's students, Howard Bloom, You
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Dylan and Bethany Listen in the early.
• 44:28
  Speaker 6: Morning hours between four am and four thirty AM. Dylan
• 44:31
  Speaker 6: Mortensen says she calls out to her friends, who she
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: thinks are being too loud. After hearing more loud noises,
• 44:37
  Speaker 6: Mortenson again tells her roommates to calm down, she's trying
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: to sleep. She turns and locks her door. Hearing loud
• 44:42
  Speaker 6: noises again, Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Coberger
• 44:46
  Speaker 6: allegedly and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving,
• 44:49
  Speaker 6: says nothing, shuts and locks her door again.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: The girl that lived, according to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: into the home on King Road with a mission.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: To commit the perfect murder.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: trace behind? And what about the two that lived? Dylan
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Mortenson and Bethany Funk.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: Listen.
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: friends are murdered upstairs, and they are left unharmed. Sources
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: to ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during,
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: and after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: Funk were both in the home and on their cell
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: phones when the murders are taking place, why is there
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: an eight hour delay before police are called in. Why
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: were other friends called before police?
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: in with your own theories and questions. The state could
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: use them, Howard Bloom. I'm curious as well, and you
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: devote a lot of time to this in your book
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: when the night comes falling about the delay on Dylan
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Mortenson's part, she actually sees the killer leaving the home.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: There's a serious delay and during that time a lot
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: of evidence could and.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: Most likely was lost.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Question to you you described the police grappling with that's
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: seven to eight hour delay.
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: Describe that the police are dumbfounded. They can't understand how
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: this girl could see a killer in the house and
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: do nothing about it. Her behavior is irrational, and I
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: think vote ultimately, the police and I have concluded that
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: in a state of terror. I also believe Cobert has
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: he descended and passed her on his way out of
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: the house, was locked in his own state of mania.
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: you will. If Dylan had spoken out, if she had
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: tried to penetrate the moment that he was locked in,
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: I think she would have died. I think she would
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: have become another victim her terror. Her silence saved her life.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: You know, I haven't really thought about it in the
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Justcott
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author on
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: Series Body Bags podcast.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: We've gone round and round about Dylan Mortenson, more so
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: than Bethany, because Bethany, while there, did not see the
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: I agree with him. If she had uttered a sound,
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: she would be dead. Right now.
• 48:06
  Speaker 9: I agree. Here's my perspective. I think that there's an
• 48:11
  Speaker 9: element to this where Coburger, if he did in fact
• 48:15
  Speaker 9: commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he
• 48:19
  Speaker 9: has tunnel vision at this point in time. He's trying
• 48:22
  Speaker 9: to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of
• 48:26
  Speaker 9: the energy that he has expended at this point in time,
• 48:30
  Speaker 9: starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter
• 48:33
  Speaker 9: that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and
• 48:36
  Speaker 9: then to be surprised by the other two residents on
• 48:42
  Speaker 9: this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter
• 48:45
  Speaker 9: them and make his way past them. I don't know
• 48:48
  Speaker 9: that people, and I hope people never do, understand the
• 48:51
  Speaker 9: amount of energy that would go in to try to
• 48:54
  Speaker 9: commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.
• 48:58
  Speaker 9: I think that probably she had in fact spoken, she
• 49:02
  Speaker 9: would have just become an obstacle to him that he's
• 49:04
  Speaker 9: trying to defeat to make his way to that door
• 49:07
  Speaker 9: so he can get out and get in that car
• 49:09
  Speaker 9: and leave.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Much the way, according to Howard Bloom Kelley Gonsolvis became
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: let me just see an impediment because of the ferocity
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: of the attack on Kelly Gonsoves and her father said
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: that he believed Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: So that supports what you're saying. But I want to
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: follow up with doctor Angela Arnold.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: I want you to hear this. Howard Bloom and Brian.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Stewart, you often have to go to state of mind
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela Arnold is with US
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: her at angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, analyze
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: what we've just heard. How or could I use that
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: at trial to explain to this jury why Dylan Mortenson
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: did nothing. Now I have defended Dylan Mortenson from the
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: get go. Dylan Mortenson is a crime victim. Let's not
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong. Okay,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: she did nothing wrong. She had been out like many
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: many thousands of vandals. That's the college mascot, drinking and
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: having a good time. There was a football game that weekend.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: She comes home, it's really late at nine, around four am.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: She's been partying. She hears a noise, she hears the dog,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: she hears her roommates saying something, and she gets up
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: in that state of mind, How does she know who
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: he was, that he was a killer?
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: How does she know he.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: It's four in the morning. Is that why she didn't
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: call nine one one? Now the crux the rub is
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: going to be what's in the cell phone communications between
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: nine one one?
• 51:32
  Speaker 8: Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,
• 51:35
  Speaker 8: these are kids that are in college. They're partying, it's
• 51:40
  Speaker 8: close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in
• 51:43
  Speaker 8: their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer
• 51:47
  Speaker 8: in the house and my friends have been killed. I
• 51:50
  Speaker 8: am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise,
• 51:54
  Speaker 8: Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going
• 51:57
  Speaker 8: from this house because they're just kids in calling having
• 52:00
  Speaker 8: a good time, right, that was the culture there. So
• 52:04
  Speaker 8: she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with
• 52:09
  Speaker 8: all of the communication back and forth and everything. She
• 52:12
  Speaker 8: had no idea who he was. He wasn't, She didn't
• 52:17
  Speaker 8: recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.
• 52:20
  Speaker 8: And she was probably a little bit scared because of
• 52:24
  Speaker 8: the noise that she had heard.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: She was a little bit shocked. I don't know.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know about her being scared, because if she
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: was scared, she would have called nine one one.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: I think she was a little bit drunk, and maybe.
• 52:37
  Speaker 8: She was Nancy, And so if she was, it's not
• 52:39
  Speaker 8: like she was out driving and drinking.
• 52:41
  Speaker 10: She was in her home.
• 52:43
  Speaker 8: He drink, slow down, sleeping it.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Off, Slow down, Nollie, you're preaching to the choir right now.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: I'm on Dylan's side on this. Back to Howard Bloom, Yes,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I can explain away why she didn't call nine one one,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: But what do we know about her communications with Bethany
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: during that time, the other roommate. Does it prove she
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: did know an attack was occurring, or does it prove
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: the contrary You.
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: All I have been able to find out is that
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: The grand jury heard about it. The grand jury reviewed
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: some of those tests. What they said, I'd be dishonest
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: forever by these events, and we keep on looking for
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior. It wasn't irrational night.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I think I know something. I think I can do
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: something Howard Bloom and be proving very wrong come trial time.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: But let me go to a trial strategist on this.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: Brian C.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Stewart, veteran trial lawyer who's joining us from this jurisdiction
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: in Idaho. He practices there in Utah. Brian, you've tried
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of cases, and if you want to win
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: what you're going I recall when I would write out yes,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I would write out every question verbatim for every witness.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: Of course, you know you have a plan when you
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: go into a fight, but when you get a punch
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: in the nose, the plan goes to hey, right, so
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: communications between Dylan and Bethany. We know they were communicating
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: by phone. Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: are not phone calls. They were texts. Those texts were
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: given to the grand jury who indicted Coburger.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: Think this through.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: were about what is the noise?
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: Did you hear the dog?
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Because Brian C.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Stewart, if those texts were about, oh.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: My star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I believe those texts would have been used as establishing
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: those texts if they were probative, in other words, if
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: they proved anything.
• 55:46
  Speaker 10: I think that's right. We would have heard more about them.
• 55:50
  Speaker 10: They would have given us more information about what the
• 55:52
  Speaker 10: girls experienced during that period. But to me, the fact
• 55:56
  Speaker 10: that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts
• 55:59
  Speaker 10: rather than talking or going to find each other tells
• 56:03
  Speaker 10: me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: don't like jewelry, fancy cars or clothes, don't even say fur.
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: He gave me I Granny cam.
• 56:26
  Speaker 8: I love it.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Do I need to go get out of bed at
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: three am and go check on her like I did
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: the first eight years she lived with us?
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: How easy is it to text?
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Why do you want to get up when you're wearing
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: nothing but a T shirt, go out in the hall,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: knock on your roommate's door and.
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Go, hey, wake up. I've got a question.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: What's going on up there? Technical term? I don't know
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: if you've got it in Idaho, in Utah?
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: B s.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Of course, what's their texting? I text back and forth
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: with the twins. We're in there there in the back
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: of the house, right, that's not I don't find that
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.
• 57:11
  Speaker 10: But if they had heard some struggle, if they had
• 57:13
  Speaker 10: heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me
• 57:16
  Speaker 10: that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear
• 57:19
  Speaker 10: during those hours.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, Chris mcdonnaugh joining me, Director Cold casese Foundation, former
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: I found him, Chris mcdonnaugh, haven't we both agreed that
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: on the.
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: Totem pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: And the house looks very different from the front than
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: it does on the side than it does from the back.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: Bloom so vividly lays out in his book, whoever has
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: to live down there, you can't keep the light out
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a cart
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: pulls up in that driveway that parking area, and a
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: lot of people do because.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: It's a very steep and narrow road.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: It's one of the only places to turn around and
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: go back down the descent of the hill. This house
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: is near the top of a hill and people are
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: house around it as a party house. Constant traffic. So
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: the lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: and that would be Dylan and Bethany eir Ago. Therefore,
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, they keep their doors locked and their curtains
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: pulled almost all the time. That is an entry point
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: to get to the other floors. So people visiting the
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: second third floor residents often come through that door, So
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: they keep their doors locked, Chris McDonough and their curtains closed.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: And that's why, and Bloom lays it out in his book,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: that's why the doors were locked.
• 59:09
  Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that,
• 59:13
  Speaker 7: you know, the point of entry, would you know, for
• 59:17
  Speaker 7: an individual like this who has taken so much time
• 59:20
  Speaker 7: to you know, plan this out, potentially to come through
• 59:24
  Speaker 7: that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The
• 59:27
  Speaker 7: back point of entry would make much more sense, which
• 59:30
  Speaker 7: also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.
• 59:35
  Speaker 7: If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,
• 59:39
  Speaker 7: you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember
• 59:45
  Speaker 7: up until four o'clock, four am, they're still getting people
• 59:50
  Speaker 7: knocking on that door. I eat the food delivery, et cetera.
• 59:53
  Speaker 7: So it it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at
• 59:57
  Speaker 7: some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 7: with each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 7: and quite frankly, when it goes quiet and Coburger comes
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 7: down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 7: party's over, this is the last guy out, and they
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 7: may have even gone back to bed, and so that
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 7: end of it, Shelf the fear factor could play into this,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 7: or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's alcohol
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 7: on board and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 7: college students. They're going back to sleep, and that would
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 7: account for the delay.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: And much has been made to the fact that Coburger
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: was wearing a mask. Why would she have not been
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID?
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, and that and that does you know, play
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 7: play into this?
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: Now, early on we heard Kelly Gonsolvas's parents speaking out
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: stating she was the target, and I understand that because
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: her wounds were so much more heinous than Maddie's. But
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: according to this new bombs She'll theory, Maddie was in
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: fact the target. Also, we are learning from Howard Bloom's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: new book When the Night Comes Falling, that there is
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Coburger to protect his sweetheart, Xenna Kernodle to Howard Bloom,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: I know that you have researched this so much that
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: it's may have become, you know, sop to you, but
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: to us, the revelations that you make in your book
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: was trying to protect Xena, and that after he attacked Ethan,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: you to Xena and then kills her. Fact support your theory.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: that he was killed with a one massive cut to
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: speaking out first saying there's someone here, and then the
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: assailants saying I don't worry, I've come to help you.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: suspect approaching Zanna and saying, don't worry, I've come to
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: commitment uh to the crime and to taking this victim
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: not going to live.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: You go into each of the victims' backgrounds painstakingly, and
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Xenna had an upsetting background as a child. Both of
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: her parents had been in and out of jail.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: And what does she do?
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: She survives, She works harder and harder and harder. She's
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: taken in by her aunt, and she is victorious against
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining Joe Scott Morgan,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: you know, I think you were with us at some
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing. No,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: you were not with us, but then later when you
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: your address, and what a woman, the strength that mom had.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: She just just remembering her and what she said to
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: To you, Jo Scott.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: Regarding the evidence, the blood spatter, the blood trail, the
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying. I want
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: to merge those because if I were telling this to
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: a jury, I would have to I would have to
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: describe what Howard Bloom says about how Coburger comes into
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: the room and he is confronted by Ethan to protect
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered by a slicing stab
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: to the juggler, and then the killer as Ethan crumples
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: to the ground, moves forward to his next target, Xanna Kernodle,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: and she's afraid, and he says, don't worry.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: I'm here to help you explain how I can prove
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: this at trial.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 9: I think that when you think about progression, we talk
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 9: about in forensics, a commingling of evidence. And from the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 9: start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 9: to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 9: commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 9: And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 9: two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 9: he Coburger allegedly would have had blood evidence on him,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 9: and not just on him, but also this weapon. As
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 9: he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 9: life with the slice to the throat. He's going to
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 9: advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 9: between the portrayer and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 9: We have indication that at least through one report, that
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 9: she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 9: went down to the level of the tendons. That means
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 9: that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 9: hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 9: it slices through the palm of her hand. And we
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 9: have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 9: the emotion, but you have to think about it as
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 9: far as the progression if you want to try to
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 9: zero in on this and get an idea as to
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 9: the order of these events. I think probably the biggest
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 9: thing that this jury is going to see in this
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 9: case when they see these crime scene images, Nancy, is
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 9: that both of these locations, both of these rooms are
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 9: going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 9: The big question is how did he clear that house
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 9: without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 9: locations in that house or certainly within the confines of
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 9: that car.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 7: How did he.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 9: Escape that without having blood all over the place at
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 9: his apartment for instance, That remains to be seen.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: You know, Bryan C.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: Stewart joining US veteran tryal lawyer, managing partner at Parker
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction, Idaho and Utah.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: You know, the defense is really going to have a
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: heck of a time because the predatory nature of what
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: was said to Xanna. Think about it, Think about it.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: I would lay it out for a jury, just as
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: I believe it happened. Coburger walks into that dark room.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Coburger to
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: protect his sweetheart Xanaker Nodle, who's still lying in the bed.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: Right here.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: He then advances on Xanna, who's lying in bed, and
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: he says the deceiving words.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: Don't worry, I'm here to help you, before he murders her.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: He is well within his wits.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: He is prepossessed of mind, and he has the wherewithal
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature of his
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: advancing silently towards Xana Kernodle is bowed chilling.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 10: I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 10: minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 10: And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 10: a mental component in order to get a conviction, that
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 10: doesn't necessarily include the motive or motivation.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: For why he did the crimes.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 10: The mensrea would would mean that they have to prove
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 10: that he intended the actions that he did, which he
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 10: clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 10: And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 10: that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 10: intend to take their lives, and it and it should
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 10: be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 10: his of his actions. You know it?
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 7: How y'all do it today?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 9: Good?
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 11: Good? Take look your driver's lines into real quick if
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 11: I could.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: So.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 11: He's right up on that man.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 12: Man, you right up on the back end of that man.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 7: Old you ever for tailgating?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: Is this your car?
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 11: Cool.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 7: Where are you headed?
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 10: Well, we coming from w s U.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: Where are you headed?
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: He later says, we're going for tie food and the
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: Dad's like, what uh you are seeing bodycam video when
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's department bodycam when they pull
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: them over and ask to see.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: Coburger's driver's license.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one shrip pome,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: that's stunt. To high heaven.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: With me right now.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: Night Comes Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: which is amazing, and in his book he outlines how
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: so they thought.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: Take a listen to more of the pullover.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 12: What's WSU?
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: Yeahs that is why he married.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 11: Sure, Okay, I have a hard time hearing you because
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 11: of the traffic. So you're coming from watching the State
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 11: University and you're going where.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, we're a little fight.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: You much about how to Howard Bloom.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna circle back to the fact that, unasked, he
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: starts talking about swat teams swarming the area.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: Methink thou dost protest too much?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: Yet he's dead.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information when nobody asked. But
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: I want to circle back to the so called hat
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: box operation that you describe so well in your book
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling. Explain and why did the FBI,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: who absolutely was following Coburger as seeing his dad across
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: the country, thought that their entire operation they go up
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: in flames.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: reason was that it was the identification was based on
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 4: the genealogy genetics, investigative genetic genealogy, and they thought that
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 4: wouldn't hold up in court, or a much more cynical
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else, So they
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: go off and follow him, and they have cars, they
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: have a plane in the air that's following his route,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: and suddenly they see Coburger being stopped, and they don't
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: know what's going on, and they don't know what to do.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: Had a they think a local cop, a local sheriff
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: had seen the be on the lookout for notice and
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: swooped in on this Hondai elantra. Or they're also wondering
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: how is Coburger going to react he is a suspect
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to get on
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: the you know, put his foot on the accelerator and
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: tear out, or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: possible of the officer who's coming in to give him
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: see what happens. To their great relief, Coburger is allowed
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: to go through, and they figure, well, this is just
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 4: a traffic stop of some kind. Then nine minutes.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: Later, it's almost laughable, howard, because the FBI actually has
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: a bird in the air watching. They see one pull
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: over by the Hancott Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: his way.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: And then there's another pullover.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: Don't you know.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: They're like, what is happening down there?
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: they're watching from a bird, right, yes, I.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: Have a session. They're flying overhead. You know, it's a
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens. In effect,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: and they've been building this case for six weeks and
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: they're finally getting closer and they think the whole case
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: is going to be blown apart before they've connected all
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: the dots, and they are filled with a sense of panic.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 4: But discipline here what Howard?
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: They were right and this is no offense to Indiana
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: at all. But I understand where the FBI is coming from,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: and you know how much I hate the fans. But
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: that said Chris mcdonnald joining me, director Cole Case Foundation,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: former homicide detective, and start of the interview room on YouTube. Chris,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: if they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: they arrested him or sped off. Anything could have happened
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: because we can't we can't predict what Coburger is going
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: Just like his father, he had no idea what his
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: son might do.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: We would never have gotten the evidence that we got
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: when they finally got home to the Pocono area, remember
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: they were surveilled.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: They went in finally or in the early morning hours,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: they catch him, I.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Think, in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: separating his trash from everybody else's trash, and they see
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle. None of
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Coburger
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out and
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: brought about his own arrest.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: So I understand why they were worried.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, And not only that. If you remember this
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 7: offshoers leaning in, So if he would have seen anything
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 7: in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan was talking about,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 7: you know, any blood transfer or anything like that. Well,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 7: the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 7: officer starts diving into this traffic stop that you may
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 7: have this fugitive task for surveillance team, you know, overhead
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 7: and behind them going hey, what the heck is going
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 7: on here? So and quite frankly, I hate to say it,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 7: but I've seen this as well as many others numerous
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 7: at times where you know, this thing could have gone
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 7: south really fast, but fortunately they cut them loose and
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 7: they were able to connect those dots later.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 12: On Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, what do you say.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 7: About some black team there together shooting.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 9: Where the.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 4: Interesting all. It's horrifying because he's the universe.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: I want to tell you, sure y'all talk about volunteering.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: That's Coberger talking about the SWAT team as it related
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: to a different homicide.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: But as you can see, he's going on and on.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: And on about murders and swat teams that he wasn't
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: asked about.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: so here, y'all.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: Work at the university there, actually work there?
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 11: Okay, okay, yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 11: yesterday or how many?
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 9: About an hour to get involved the stops, I want to.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 7: Not show this sutions if they could shoot somebody.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 4: They say, And then you don't know about that.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: Actually, it's really hard to hear it.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: Remember that side body cam that Ellie is wearing on
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: their shoulder, and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: and you hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: So Coburger knew very well how his father would view
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: a murder, much less a quadruple murder.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: So while the FBI and their bird in the air.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: The helicopter at SAYSNA is watching, two times police pull
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: over Coburger route home. Howard Bloom in his book When
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: that means?
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: What does that mean?
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 9: And what is it?
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: How does it relate to Coburger?
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 4: The hat box operation goes back to the days of
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 4: the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: and they would trail people on the street. They'd have
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 4: the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, there's the balanced.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: Techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 4: you're going to follow this guy it's a complete operation.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 4: You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: pick him up until a couple of hours later because
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: he's taken a different route than the one they expected,
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 4: and they pick him up through a license plate reader
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 4: in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: And it really befuddles me.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Why in the last minute, after all of his father's
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: research about the best route home it was a long drive,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: he Coburger comes up with a very roundabout, circuitous route home.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: so walking on eggsheels around his son Coburger that he goes, Okay,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: it made no sense and that was not the route
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: the FBI was expecting, and they lose co reminds me
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: of the securitiest route. I believe he took the night
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: after the murders to get back home. Oh my stars,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: we've got all the digital evidence to get.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 3: To the turning the phone off, the turning the phone on, the.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: Cell phone towers, and it's really interesting speaking of that,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: Howard into your book, you talk about a pitch that
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: Coburger makes to the local PD trying to get a
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: job and internship, and you quote what he says in
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: his pitch, and I found it really interesting how he
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: would help rural police departments better analyze sell and digital
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: of course, he didn't get the job, by the way,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: but it tells me how intricately familiar he is with
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: off his phone when he left the King wrote address
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: and when he went into the King wrote address yes.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 10: No.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 4: Very much so. Also that short note he writes reflects
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: his arrogance, this sort of condescending attitude. Is he the
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: criminology doctoral candidate. He knows more than the local police.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 4: The irony is that within months that would be used
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 4: against him, the evidence that they had compiled from cell
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 4: phones and cell phone towered data.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: purchase of a uniform at Walmart.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: How does that play into this investigation?
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 4: Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform and worked
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: out for a one piece sort of body suit that
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 4: he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 4: that suit on the night of the killings. That's how
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 4: he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 4: car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 4: the suit put it into a plastic bag, garbage bag,
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: they theorized, and that it also explains that long route
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 4: home that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 4: dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 4: and also the murder weapon.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: You refer to a Dickie's work suit.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: I believe it was purchased at Walmart, and that would
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: but the Dickie's work suit, I think is a jumper
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: that you put on over your clothes if you wish,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: and that was never recovered. But to the receipt, Did
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased?
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: It was purchased, the best I've been able to ascertain,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 4: I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 4: was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 4: I was told. I don't have the exact date.
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: So not any time that he was working in systems.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: Remember he had a job where he was kind of
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: like a repair guy way back when this suit, this
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: Dickey's work suit was purchased just before the murders. And
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: filed against him at Washington State University by female students,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: and it went on and on and on.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: It wasn't an overnight thing.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: The faculty, the administration there went to great pains to
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: document what was stated and to give him a chance
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: to explain it. But you describe Howard the whole way home,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: how Coburger was seething about what had been said about
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: him by these female students, and more important, how he
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: was going to beat the rap and how they could
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: not fire him.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: He was going to fight back.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Little did he know they had already sent an email
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: telling him it's over, or sent him a lets telling him.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: It was all over. But that seething that you describe
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: in your book was riveting.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 4: he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 4: he thought he was going to be able to return
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 4: to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: against him, he could talk his way out of it.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 4: That's what he kept on telling his father. I can
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 4: beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 4: and I can act in my own as my own
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: defense attorney, and I can convince him that I should
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 4: not be fired. He needed this job. This job, this
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: teaching assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 4: year or so tuition and board.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: You know, I looked at your sources at the end
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: of your book, and I don't see the sources for
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: what was said in that car, his seething anger about
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: keeping many of your sources secret?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 4: that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 4: is pretty much when I started into this is what
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 4: the FBI did. They built a family tree of genetic clusters,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 4: and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 4: did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 4: who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 4: knocking on doors, reaching out to them, until I got
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 4: to talk to me, and that was my primary sources. Also,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: there were people in the town who had also spoken
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: to them, in the whole Strausburg all Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: the austere room where the murder case was worked at
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: police and he says law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: their evidence into two categories, empirical and rhetorical. Empirical the
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: hard evidence. Rhetorical the why. And that's what we are
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: doing tonight again, Howard Bloom. Thank you for your book
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: and for joining us again to part two of the analysis,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: and we barely scratch the surface the analysis of what
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: you have learned about the Coburger investigation. Thank you to
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: us as we seek justice in our own way.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: Goodbye, friend,