Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of 3D Computing | Brittan Heller | S7 E18
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:21:12 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of future of X, Y, Z. I am here talking about a pretty incredible topic, which will be the future of 3D computing. our guest is Professor Britton Heller Britton. Thanks so much for joining us. 00:00:21:14 - 00:00:23:16 Speaker 2 Thank you for having me. 00:00:23:18 - 00:00:48:04 Speaker 1 well, it's really exciting. I mean, your career is pretty impressive, to put it mildly. we have a lot of impressive guests on this program, but, researching your bio was, a little inspiring. You are currently a teaching fellow and law lecturer at Stanford University, which is also your undergraduate alma mater in the school's law, science and technology program. 00:00:48:06 - 00:00:56:24 Speaker 1 you are a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, regarding democracy and technology, but interestingly, you're a lawyer and a former prosecutor. 00:00:57:01 - 00:00:59:19 Speaker 2 I am bit of a nice person. 00:00:59:21 - 00:01:26:14 Speaker 1 Well, you've persecuted a lot of, like, human rights and war crimes. You started your career in Rwanda. you've done work in the Congo, in North Korea and Afghanistan. You spent time at Department of State and the Department of Justice. you. And similar to what you're doing at Stanford, I guess a little bit or maybe different. You founded centers for Technology and Society at Harvard and at Stanford, and you were a fellow in this kind of topic area at Yale, where you went to law school. 00:01:26:20 - 00:01:53:13 Speaker 1 So, I mean, 3D computing, when you hear that background, seems like quite a strange intersection, but we're going to uncover why you got in here. And also, I think what the the importance of your background also is, in, in the topic. But I want to give you a chance, as we always do, to kind of define the topic area in the context of your expertise in today's conversation. 00:01:53:18 - 00:01:57:19 Speaker 1 So how do we define 3D computing? 00:01:57:21 - 00:02:26:15 Speaker 2 3D computing is what replaces this. It is the next version of the internet. When we move from traditional flat screen 2D objects like cell phones or laptops, and we move into what I call an embodied form of computing, and this is when there's a, a relationship between your body and the computer. They feed each other, and it goes in a cycle like this. 00:02:26:17 - 00:02:34:13 Speaker 2 It's, it's more akin to having actual experiences than reading words on the screen. Well. 00:02:34:15 - 00:02:59:21 Speaker 1 That's, it's basically, as you're saying, 2D to 3D internet, pretty much. and among emerging technologies, which, I mean, I don't know if you would consider 3D computing an emerging technology itself or in kind of an encapsulation of all of these emerging technologies. maybe that's the first question. 00:02:59:23 - 00:03:29:00 Speaker 2 That's a really good question to start with. because because one of my, one of my beef is, when people look at emerging technologies in isolation from one another, I always say that emerging technologies work like a constellation. And if you focus on one bit and ignore the rest and you're you're missing the bigger picture. So in that sense, 3D computing is going to be a part of how we how we use computers in the future. 00:03:29:02 - 00:03:56:00 Speaker 2 That said, it is a little a little bit of a horse of a different color, all in and of itself. most people will encounter it as, spatial computing or virtual reality or augmented reality. So, you can experience that with a 3D headset like you would, a VR headset. You can have a mixed reality headset, which are digital overlays on physical space. 00:03:56:02 - 00:04:13:19 Speaker 2 And that's like the Apple Vision Pro. And you can toggle that in and out. you can then you can also go all the way down to using, Snap or Instagram filters and lenses or even QR codes at a restaurant. So it's the way that physical space and digital space bump into each other. 00:04:13:21 - 00:04:17:19 Speaker 1 And what you're saying is, and blend. 00:04:17:21 - 00:04:31:09 Speaker 2 and blend. Yeah. And in a way that I think is super cool and actually implicates, a lot of the challenges that we had with traditional computing, we continue to have, but it gives us a chance to do it differently. 00:04:31:11 - 00:04:48:14 Speaker 1 It's interesting, and I want to just come to one point in the emerging tech, because I think of all of the emerging techs at the moment. AI, artificial intelligence, is really kind of all the rage. How does that relate to 3D computing specifically? 00:04:48:16 - 00:05:19:00 Speaker 2 3D computing is more the hardware side. So if, if AI is the gasoline, then XR is the car or the rocket ship. We'll put it that way. If AI is the fuel, then XR is the rocket ship. It's AI is what we will use to fuel these new computer interfaces. And, in that way, there is this this relationship we're putting. 00:05:19:02 - 00:05:26:01 Speaker 2 One is cool. Two is cool, but putting them together is where you, you start to see the real benefits and the potential. 00:05:26:03 - 00:05:36:19 Speaker 1 And XR is in some ways exponential reality. Right? that's, that's that's what XR is anyway. So that's interesting. Let's, go ahead. 00:05:36:21 - 00:06:01:13 Speaker 2 Oh, no, I was just going to say I, I tried it the first time at a, at a conference, about. Oh, gosh. About seven years ago now. And I was it was a LiDAR scan of the redwood forest, and, and I got placed into the experience, and I could fly around the trees, and I could go and look at the top of the trees and dive all the way down and look at the root system. 00:06:01:15 - 00:06:34:04 Speaker 2 And it was immediately convinced that this is the way that computers are going. And it's not just something that I'm a passive observer of information. And, it's something that could be an actual part of the experience. And so it's and now with AI, you can develop these type of experiences and have a, a more, I guess, more active role in, in, in not just the processing of information. 00:06:34:06 - 00:07:00:21 Speaker 1 Well, it's interesting because for a while there, it did feel like VR, AR was going to define the future of immersive technologies. Then it was the metaverse for like a hot second until Facebook renamed Self Meta. And then I think it kind of got all confused. and that's fine by me, but, I'm not sure. In my line of work, what kinds of virtual worlds are currently available and ready or close to ready for us to experience? 00:07:00:22 - 00:07:19:22 Speaker 1 You just talked about this experience with LiDAR in the redwoods. What are you seeing right now? And I guess to some questions, when you answer is like, what is the role of curation? I mean, you just talked about AI and we can hyper personalize and all those things. But like what is the role of curation and what is the role spatial computing plays? 00:07:19:22 - 00:07:26:02 Speaker 1 And maybe actually spatial computing is everything, but feel free to answer. 00:07:26:04 - 00:07:28:15 Speaker 2 It's I think the first question is, kind of like. 00:07:28:17 - 00:07:30:00 Speaker 1 What do you see? 00:07:30:02 - 00:08:17:00 Speaker 2 What am I seeing? right now I'm, I'm seeing kind of the, the slow, the slow burning death of the metaverse. And I'll say it that way to be kind. I, I do not think consumers wanted a 3D version of social media when when you put people in that it's it's okay. It's it's it's a novelty. But the real power of experience of, of a, of a VR experience, an AR experience, or like an XR experience is like, the way it's processed by your brain is like you and I sitting here having this conversation today. 00:08:17:02 - 00:08:45:05 Speaker 2 It's processed through the hippocampus. So it's the same way that you create memories. And because of that, it is the most valuable tool that we've ever developed for learning or training. some people talk about different possibilities for artistic expression. So I don't think we're all going to be putting on a headset to jump into social media. But I do see us starting to use this to, to train ourselves for the future of work. 00:08:45:07 - 00:09:14:24 Speaker 2 I see, universities and museums starting to, to help people understand more deeply the type of information that they're conveying to them. And when you look at the research that comes out of it, people retain more knowledge because it's more akin to experiential learning rather than reading or writing. So you learn best by doing things. And this is what the computer allows you to do in XR. 00:09:15:00 - 00:09:40:19 Speaker 2 I think it hits industry first. I think it hits enterprise later on. I think it hits education second. so just a little different trajectory than than I think people originally imagined. But, and it's also picked up by entertainment. So for a while, it was really de rigueur to have a VR experience for every movie coming out. 00:09:40:19 - 00:10:11:18 Speaker 2 And, people who study VR, there's an acronym by Professor Jeremy Pattinson called dice. And you should use VR for experiences that are dangerous, impossible, expensive or, what is C? I'm going to say complicated because my brain's not working. But forgive me, Jeremy, I think that I think I think that's exactly right. You should use it for things that you, kind of augment the possibility of of realities. 00:10:12:01 - 00:10:32:22 Speaker 2 And that's why it's it's not a novelty. So an experience that allows me to fly to the top of a five foot tall redwood tree is not something I couldn’t do. Couldn't normally do myself right. It's too dangerous. It's really expensive. If I take a helicopter up there. It's, kind of impossible because I can't climb 500ft of trees very well. 00:10:32:24 - 00:11:09:16 Speaker 2 and and it's it's complex. So, using VR for something like that is, is actually a really good example. Where you see it today? it's it's actually hidden in plain sight. And by that, I mean JetBlue mechanics used augmented reality to train and and to have their adoption curve go from this. This. Yeah. Because then they can get all of the knowledge of an experienced mechanic would already have by labeling things for them in their line of sight and helping them do their work better. 00:11:09:18 - 00:11:47:12 Speaker 2 There is a VR headset in every Walmart in the back, and it it trains people on how to deal with Black Friday crowds and aggressive customers. Bank of America uses VR to train people on how to deal with bank robbers from teller’s perspective. There's the second largest metaverse is not, it's not really what you think. It's actually, a it's Accenture, and they have 750,000 people log in to a digital twin of their headquarters every morning in a headset to go to work. 00:11:47:14 - 00:12:06:23 Speaker 2 So it's not just. And then there are there are fun things to do. artistic experiences, advocacy based experiences. But you're starting to see kind of adoption by industry and especially industries that need to train people up fast, need to be current and need to deal with diffuse populations. 00:12:07:00 - 00:12:22:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, interesting. I've definitely heard, where I've seen is obviously in like, surgery, medical field, etc. and in the field training and things like this, which, you know, you, you hope that a lot of the applications become better for the humanity as well, which. 00:12:22:24 - 00:12:50:10 Speaker 2 I, I think you're right to point out the surgery one. The first surgery conducted with two surgeons leading on separate continents was done earlier this year using VR. One of the coolest things I've gotten to try is a, a light pen to a haptic device. And that's, when you actually feel the feedback. it is connected to a surgery simulator, and I so I got to perform a simulated, knee surgery on someone. 00:12:50:10 - 00:12:54:22 Speaker 2 And I just have to say, it is a good thing that I chose the law for my profession. 00:12:54:24 - 00:13:24:01 Speaker 1 I actually just did something at one of our iF Design award winners like robotic gastro surgery and we were trying it out and I was like, yeah, no. Like I could have done lots of things, but like, medical is not one of them. Yeah, yeah. But it is fascinating. I'm always curious a little bit about the history, and I'm cognizant of time and because there's a lot of history, but like, how did we get here? 00:13:24:03 - 00:13:51:08 Speaker 2 So when you look at how this technology developed, in the 1960s it started off as a a way for the military to train fighter pilots. Yeah. So origins and DARPA and Arpa projects. From there, so it's been around for a really, really long time, and you can find people who've been working on it from the very beginning, like Tom Furness, who started the Virtual World Society. 00:13:51:10 - 00:14:11:08 Speaker 2 and if you if you talk to him, I interviewed him for a project, that, that I did for Harvard Kennedy School. And he said this technology is akin to splitting the atom. Wow. And he he believes it's that powerful. and when you have an experience in it, it's it's akin to, being written on the brain in permanent ink. 00:14:11:11 - 00:14:33:05 Speaker 2 And I realize I'm waving around a Sharpie right now, which is kind of funny. it started off with military applications. you started to see kind of gaming applications and other entertainment based experiments come in in the 80s and the 90s. more as video games became commercialized and people thought there would be a potential application for it. 00:14:33:07 - 00:15:03:17 Speaker 2 But the, the VR headsets, like the they were room scale. So it wasn't really consumer scale technology yet. people did a lot of cognitive neuroscience based research with them. And basically it continued that way until about 2010s when you started to see people really making moves on consumer grade VR headsets. And that's where most of the movement has happened. 00:15:03:19 - 00:15:27:22 Speaker 2 Today, you see most of the movement, not necessarily in these immersive headsets where you put it on, and that is your entire self-contained world. But, augmented reality glasses. I think that that's you're actually going to see more movement in AR and, and, and mixed reality, which allows you to toggle between the two. Meta's investment in the Ray-Bans, glasses, I think is what's actually going to pay off the most. 00:15:27:23 - 00:15:30:20 Speaker 1 Which won an iF Design gold award last year. 00:15:30:22 - 00:16:14:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. And and if you've gotten to try them, it's it's very good. And the AI assistant built into them brings a lot of the things that we've been talking about. Wanting and exploring in science fiction really to everyday consumers in a beautiful way. piano tutors, when you look down, real time language translation between people. you also start to get into some of the privacy risks and the things that we've also been really exploring in, in science fiction, a bunch of students from Harvard are able to crack software, and, made a version of LinkedIn that pops up when you look at someone and everybody says, oh, that's so useful. 00:16:14:11 - 00:16:23:12 Speaker 2 I'd really love that. Yeah, but bystander privacy is a thing when you actually bring computers in and you give them legs a little walk around amongst us, and that's what XR does. 00:16:23:14 - 00:16:43:19 Speaker 1 completely. It's interesting. I mean, I'm curious and I won't come back to your fascinating background because you've had a lifelong dedication to advancing human dignity and justice in some of the world's most challenging global contexts. How did this human impact work lead you to the Silicon Valley and the tech industry? 00:16:43:21 - 00:17:08:03 Speaker 2 Oh, I, I was the Jane Doe in the first cyber harassment lawsuit, which, happened while I was a student at Yale. And that's what kind of expanded my worldview to look at digital rights as human rights. And at first, I was really grouchy about it, because it it was not a pleasant experience, put it mildly. 00:17:08:05 - 00:17:40:06 Speaker 2 And, wasn't was an exercise in having no control and being in the public eye. And, right now I look at it as really putting me on the vanguard of where human rights were going. and so that's what really led me to think about how how technology plays a role in, in, in these human rights and human dignity related, paths that I, that I was already on at that point. 00:17:40:06 - 00:17:48:18 Speaker 2 But, how it makes it makes it different how technology sort of is like putting a drop of paint in a glass of water. 00:17:48:22 - 00:17:57:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. And watching it diffuse. The case that you're mentioning being a Jane Doe in was, an online abuse case, correct? 00:17:57:20 - 00:18:27:06 Speaker 2 It was, it was, yeah, it it was myself and, other female students from Yale who were, who were being harassed by actually turned out to be bunches of people all over the country. And, we we'd never really met most of them that didn't go to school with us. And when I, when I settled with people, for the suit, I got to talk to them about it and they all said the same thing, which was really illuminating for me. 00:18:27:07 - 00:18:48:20 Speaker 2 They all said I didn't realize what I was writing impacted real lives, and that it it it had an impact on your life. And I didn't realize if somebody on another side of the screen and I thought to myself, that's that's a design problem, that's a UX problem. Like that, that's not a failure of humanity. That's not, something we can fix, right? 00:18:48:20 - 00:19:07:13 Speaker 2 By designing technology that better embodies who we are and how, and gives people nods and nudges towards remembering that that the commonalities we share instead of allowing dehumanization to persist. And so it's that's that's kind of what did it. 00:19:07:15 - 00:19:32:04 Speaker 1 I mean, that, that that'll, that'll do it. And more recently you have this concept of biometrics, psychography, psychography is a word, which is kind of redefining how privacy and new forms of computing intersect. I think it's kind of probably speaks to, what you've been doing. Talk about this intersection, if you will, of legal protections and technology. 00:19:32:06 - 00:19:59:05 Speaker 2 Biometric psychography is Cambridge Analytica on steroids. And it it's what I fear the most when you you look at 3D computing because a VR headset works with information from your body and you need your eye tracking and your body position and, basically this, this biometric information to calibrate the device. There's no way to opt out of it. 00:19:59:05 - 00:20:24:07 Speaker 2 Like, you opt out of giving your personal information to a website. And if you don't give it to the computer, the computer doesn't work. This is what where things start to get diffuse and different than, than normal computing. I came up with biometrics psychography when I, when I realized you couldn't opt out of it. And, the, the way this technology works, you feel it. 00:20:24:07 - 00:20:55:23 Speaker 2 It's real. It's real to your body. It's a real feeling limbic system into your brain. it's not a virtual reality. It's an actual reality. Psychography is a term from advertising that is a consumer profile of your likes, your dislikes, and your preferences. And if your involuntary bodily feedback, like the way your pupils dilate when you see something you like or you see a person you think is sexy, or when you have other sort of indicators that your doctor may not even know to look for yet. 00:20:56:04 - 00:21:28:04 Speaker 2 Pre-clinical signs of autism, schizophrenia, ADHD, Parkinson's, Huntington's disease, all those very serious ailments. You basically give those away to the data flows in an XR device when you use it. and I, I don't think we should allow targeted ads to people based on their involuntary bodily feedback, the stimuli they're looking at. I don't think you can consent to give that away because you can't control it. 00:21:28:06 - 00:21:47:21 Speaker 2 and I saw that in and I think about four years ago and published a paper on that saying we need to be aware that this is different and all the privacy laws that we've developed protect personal identifying information. and at that time, you couldn't get that from VR. So privacy law wasn't the way to handle it. 00:21:47:23 - 00:22:13:19 Speaker 2 Now you can actually get personal identifying information from XR, which is not good news and means that's even more complicated. privacy law could work, but there's, it depends on how you define biometrics. And that's, a state by state analysis in a country by country analysis. So it's there's a lot of work to do in order to have the same protections we have when we go online, when we all start using 3D computing. 00:22:13:21 - 00:22:54:07 Speaker 1 I mean, you started early by sharing some of the coolest things you're seeing as you have this front row seat to kind of technology, AI, emerging tech, the convergence of all of it. And what you just said scares the bejesus out of me even more than most things already do, which is I've observed over the last 20 years the rise of just we'll call it technology in general, but the internet and social media and the policy, the regulators, the governments, plural, all governments seeming inability to comprehend what is actually happening and therefore then to get ahead of it and regulate it. 00:22:54:07 - 00:23:28:00 Speaker 1 And we're seeing AI right now. I mean, I won't go into that rabbit hole right now, but what you've just said is certainly a concern. privacy, security, biometric data. You mentioned earlier that some of this stuff doesn't look like tech like, so we we might not even know where we're engaging. As a human rights, you know, leader for the decades that you were like, what are the activities that you're engaging in that you're encouraging your peers to engage in, that you're advising 00:23:28:00 - 00:23:35:06 Speaker 1 I'm sure companies and governments to engage in that are going to kind of address some of these biggest concerns. 00:23:35:08 - 00:23:59:01 Speaker 2 One is to think about this stuff now because I and I say this with all pun intended, that like, we have another bite at the apple. All of the, all of the assumptions that we have about the way computers work and these and in human computer relationships, we have a chance to choose differently at this moment. 00:23:59:03 - 00:24:12:10 Speaker 2 And if, the hardware floor is still being solidified, like, we know it's going to involve glasses mostly, but people are experimenting with other type of form factors with haptics that you wear, with the pins, 00:24:12:12 - 00:24:14:09 Speaker 1 With with implants. 00:24:14:11 - 00:24:51:22 Speaker 2 With implants, you know, but the thing about this, you don't even need an implant because, the eyes are not just the window to your soul. They're the window to your neuroscience. So it's, you don't need an implant to get all that information out, so we can start thinking about solutions to protective before something goes wrong. And by that, you can develop privacy enhancing technologies to help anonymize your personal data in those flows so that you can still calibrate the device but cannot go back to me as an individual, to know that this is the type of person that I really like and use that. 00:24:51:24 - 00:25:23:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm working with, a lot of countries and, intergovernmental bodies like, the council of Europe and other, other groups, the ITU at the UN, and to help them look at what this is and then take an audit of their existing laws and stress testing them. So the Council of Europe in particular, we're trying to see if freedom of expression as it exists in their human rights law, holds water 00:25:23:21 - 00:25:31:18 Speaker 2 when you throw this at it. And if not, what we need to think about today, given the speed of regulation and and and legislation. 00:25:31:21 - 00:25:36:11 Speaker 1 Meaning that the slowness of regulation and the speed of technology. 00:25:36:17 - 00:26:09:15 Speaker 2 Exactly. And but by the time people start using this as an everyday thing in their work, which I actually think is coming within, within 3 to 5 years. Yeah. I think it's gonna be here sooner than you think. Yeah. we're ready for it. And I think we can be, I, I would also encourage people to, especially people who who work in design to, to have a, a voice in the critique and design of these systems. 00:26:09:15 - 00:26:38:11 Speaker 2 Design if you're working in critique, if you're working at, outside. But, some of the companies that develop these first glasses took input from consumer groups, from civil, civil society groups, from academics, and actually changed the design based on concerns about bias, standard privacy and safety and things, too. And it made a better product. So the companies have made billions of dollars of investment into this hardware. 00:26:38:11 - 00:26:54:03 Speaker 2 They want it to succeed. So you can be a part of helping them succeed and helping it be a product that you feel comfortable using. It gives me the ick too with the, I think, a video game that knows everything about me, but. 00:26:54:03 - 00:27:11:09 Speaker 1 Totally. Well it's so funny. And you just you just actually answered. It's hilarious. Like I wanted to do like a quick round, like, what is the role of blank in 3D computing? And the first blank was design and designers. So, you've sort of answered that if you want to, do you want to add anything before I move on to the next one? 00:27:11:09 - 00:27:45:14 Speaker 2 Yes, one other thing. this technology will only work if it's available for everyone. some of my, my earlier work talked about how the headsets weren't designed for people, with apparent or non apparent disabilities, for women, for ethnic and religious minorities to go with the various type of hair textures or headgear when you were designing these things originally they were designed by people who were very high achievers. 00:27:45:16 - 00:27:50:16 Speaker 2 So think about how to bring everybody into the fold and what that means for design perspective. 00:27:50:22 - 00:27:56:04 Speaker 1 The inclusive, inclusive design and also accessible from a price point perspective as well. 00:27:56:06 - 00:28:07:10 Speaker 2 Exactly. So, how do you how do you create, embodied computing and have a total, enhance your total addressable market? Yeah. And do both. 00:28:07:12 - 00:28:16:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's interesting. What about, what is the role of money in 3D computing? 00:28:16:12 - 00:28:38:16 Speaker 2 Well, I think meta has spent so much money that it is an experiment that can't fail. so, I, I've been saying for a couple of years, and I think it's more true today that, where AI goes, so this goes. AI had an AI winter. We are now in a XR winter. like AI has come out of it. 00:28:38:16 - 00:29:07:16 Speaker 2 XR will come out of it too. So I would look at the investments and, in AI and see how this is going to intersect with that. I would also look at investments in 5G and 6G and batteries, because this needs to be untethered. And it needs to last all day. So the technologies that will fuel the evolution of the hardware, that is where I think you'll start to see money flowing, because nobody will want to sit plugged into a wall. 00:29:07:18 - 00:29:08:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:29:08:17 - 00:29:17:19 Speaker 1 That's totally fascinating. I hadn't thought about that. What is the role of the law in 3D computing? 00:29:17:21 - 00:29:46:14 Speaker 2 I so I was the chip. I was a computer hacking and IP specialist for, the section I was in at DOJ, the human rights and special prosecution section. I, I think we are going to have to think about how electronic evidence works when it is a physical, digital hybrid. You know, there there are certain really foundational legal concepts that are there for really good reasons that get pushed 00:29:46:14 - 00:30:20:24 Speaker 2 When you think about 3D computing. One is braiding material. So you have an obligation to give exculpatory information to the other side on a case, and the government has to give it to the defense. does that include does that include things that get really close to surveillance? Right. does that include all of my locations when I, when I wear VR headsets, does that include all the feed, does that mean that when you go back to a company and they have two minutes of recorded material of you in social VR, like is it is that sufficient? 00:30:21:01 - 00:30:42:14 Speaker 2 Will the court be able to order, preservation of material, meaning that they're going to have to actually create a live, a recording of your live interactions with people, whether or not you consent to it. Lots of really different things. There's a specific definition of home under the law, right? And, everything breaks, everything like. 00:30:42:14 - 00:30:44:22 Speaker 1 That is all very Black mirror. 00:30:44:24 - 00:30:55:08 Speaker 2 I so I think it's funny that you said that because my, my friends and my colleagues, they, when they when they really want to joke around with me, they call me the lawyer of the black mirror. 00:30:55:10 - 00:30:57:22 Speaker 1 I mean, it feels that way. I got to be honest. 00:30:57:24 - 00:31:06:00 Speaker 2 It it does, but I kind of have to balance it. So I have a Black Mirror answer when you ask me for the resources people should look up. 00:31:06:02 - 00:31:16:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. Interesting. It's good. last one. And then I'll move on to our final. Final questions. what is the role of empathy in 3D computing? 00:31:16:18 - 00:31:46:20 Speaker 2 People. People talked about XR as an empathy machine. This discourse was really, really prominent about. 7 to 10 years ago, especially when people were experimenting a lot with, 360 video. Early studies came back and showed that you could start to empathize with somebody within four minutes of being put in someone else's body and literally walk around in their skin. 00:31:46:22 - 00:32:09:00 Speaker 2 a lot of those studies still hold up. People are starting to question the, the air tightness of that finding though. Sometimes when you put people in someone else's skin and have them walk around, you get a blowback effect where they're like, you know what? I did that I experienced that it wasn't so bad. Right? And so that's what you don't want to do. 00:32:09:02 - 00:32:29:01 Speaker 2 so when you're designing an experience, I think it's it's important to think about the outcomes you want for the user. And also, conversely, what happens if the user doesn't take those outcomes away. But it's kind of takes away the opposite. Are there ways that you can use a belt and suspenders when you're designing an experience if you want empathy as your aim? 00:32:29:01 - 00:32:50:14 Speaker 1 That’s fascinating. There was an interesting article in The New York Times, about, kind of like the death of fiction novels being read by especially, young men and like the role of actually, like, putting yourself in someone else's shoes or trying something on that you can't otherwise experience and like, actually, like, are we having problems because of the, the lack of reading? 00:32:50:14 - 00:32:59:22 Speaker 1 And so what you're what you're saying is actually, we could design these experiences to have the same outcomes as a novel, but we have to be careful about it. 00:32:59:24 - 00:33:06:00 Speaker 2 And you can also do that with video games and sort of hyper mediated texts and things like that. But that's a whole different conversation. 00:33:06:04 - 00:33:22:20 Speaker 1 Totally. okay. Last two questions is there anything that I haven't before I move to our last question, anything I haven't asked you about, Brittan, that you want to share about the future of 3D computing? 00:33:22:22 - 00:33:49:20 Speaker 2 I think it I think it's going to be beautiful. And I, I want to emphasize that because a lot of what I do, what I look at, talks about the transfer of online harms to new computing interfaces. But if if you haven't tried it, the, one of the best things that I got to do with my grandmother, she lived to be 102 and when she was 100 years old at Thanksgiving. 00:33:49:22 - 00:34:12:02 Speaker 2 I put her in a, a VR headset, and I had her do this experience where she went down to the bottom of the ocean and got to encounter a blue whale in real scale and stand in the middle of schools of fishes, school of fish and, watch sea turtles and jellyfish swim all around her. And she said it was one of the most amazing things she had seen in her entire life. 00:34:12:04 - 00:34:33:17 Speaker 2 She lived over a century. She before electricity was common in homes. So I talk a lot about, the power of this. And I want us to be careful with the power and wield it carefully. But I also want to emphasize the potential and the beauty of what we're about to get into. 00:34:33:19 - 00:34:48:07 Speaker 1 I love that, power and potential is pretty good. last question. As I always have for every guest, what is your greatest hope for the future of 3D computing in 2050? So 25 years from today? 00:34:54:00 - 00:35:34:00 Speaker 2 I think that it augments potential and not just reality. that it allows me to. It allows people, not just me, to, to do their chosen work better to, to experiment with creating their own virtual worlds and to invite people to them so it creates more, more almost like a new digital commons, and that it allows us to push forward avenues in medicine and science that we're just starting to play with now. 00:35:34:02 - 00:35:58:22 Speaker 2 The first, FDA approved XR device will cure a kid's lazy eye in six weeks. When it used to take almost a year in an eye patch. Wow. And it's 30 minutes a day watching a Netflix cartoon. It's incredible stuff. It, it can help people recover from strokes in a way that doesn't feel in risk like physical therapy or occupational therapy. 00:35:58:24 - 00:36:07:17 Speaker 2 So the use of these devices to help us understand our neuroplasticity better and to use it for our benefit. 00:36:07:19 - 00:36:24:11 Speaker 1 It's really amazing. professor Brittan Heller, future of 3D printed 3D printing, 3D computing. thank you so much for joining us on future of X, Y, Z today. It's, I think I'm going to be thinking about this stuff for a long time. 00:36:24:13 - 00:36:30:05 Speaker 2 Thank you. It was great having, having it was great getting to be here. 00:36:30:07 - 00:36:55:06 Speaker 1 for everyone watching and listening, you know, you can watch on YouTube. You can listen anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Follow on Instagram or visit ifdesign.com/xyz for all show links, and all shows and again thank you Brittan. And we will see you all again in two weeks time.