Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #120: Interview with Hayley, Founder, Tactile Map Accessibility Project

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #120: Interview with Hayley, Founder, Tactile Map Accessibility Project · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:12
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP,
0:17
Podcast Commentator: and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast,
0:22
Podcast Commentator: Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
0:27
Podcast Commentator: insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Podcast Commentator: Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
0:35
Podcast Commentator: especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate,
0:40
Podcast Commentator: author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer,
0:45
Podcast Commentator: entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:50
Podcast Commentator: She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills,
0:54
Podcast Commentator: and expertise in access technology and information.
0:58
Podcast Commentator: As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
1:02
Podcast Commentator: she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone,
1:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary.
1:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate,
1:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch,
1:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and stubborn optimism.
1:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author,
1:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind.
1:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010,
1:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its
1:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones.
1:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in July of 2019,
1:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
2:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
2:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for
2:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: tireless commitment to removing barriers.
2:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
2:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
2:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: producing audio mysteries,
2:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in
2:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: plain language.
2:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
2:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: everyday practice.
3:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
3:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: where policy meets lived experience,
3:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
3:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Before we jump into today's conversation,
3:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest,
3:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the
3:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: world that we are trying to build.
3:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am pleased and privileged and extremely excited to
3:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: welcome to our show today probably the youngest guest that I
3:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: have had thus far.
3:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hayley Zia, welcome to my show.
3:52
Hayley: Donna, it's such an honor to be invited by you. Thank you for having me.
3:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you for being here. And you know what?
3:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When we had our interview last Tuesday, I said to myself,
4:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "This is our future,
4:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and if we could get 10 other people like you with your enthusiasm,
4:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: your excitement, and your commitment,
4:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: our future is in great hands."
4:19
Hayley: You're very kind.
4:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] All right.
4:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hayley, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary.
4:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: At just 15 years old,
4:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you are already running a podcast,
4:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: an accessibility campaign, and a youth magazine.
4:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And for listeners meeting you for the first time,
4:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: who is Hayley, and how would you describe the work that you do?
4:53
Hayley: Well,
4:54
Hayley: I am 15 years old, and I am legally blind.
5:01
Hayley: I am an avid accessibility advocate for the visually impaired
5:07
Hayley: people, and I want to campaign for greater
5:11
Hayley: accessibility and independence and just confidence,
5:15
Hayley: as well as raising more awareness for the blind community and the visually impaired
5:20
Hayley: community.
5:22
Hayley: I am also an avid reader of Jane Austen.
5:26
Hayley: Absolutely love her books. And I am somewhat of a untalented musician,
5:33
Hayley: shall we say. Where I play the piano somewhat and the violin,
5:38
Hayley: and I love singing,
5:40
Hayley: although I'm not quite sure how much my neighbors like to hear me sing.
5:47
Hayley: How to describe myself and my work, it would be,
5:51
Hayley: I started my work due to mainly curiosity, and some would say
5:58
Hayley: I'm a bit too ambitious and just stubborn.
6:02
Hayley: I'm very stubborn, and
6:05
Hayley: when people say
6:08
Hayley: that it is quite the ambition to start a magazine,
6:13
Hayley: I think about it and I think, "Well, why don't we try?"
6:17
Hayley: The internet is amazing now. You can reach people from all around the world.
6:22
Hayley: As I'm talking to you from the UK now, and you're in Canada.
6:26
Hayley: And so
6:28
Hayley: you can always make, for example, a magazine
6:31
Hayley: international.
6:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do your parents say to you about all of this?
6:38
Hayley: I think initially,
6:40
Hayley: my parents and I never expected, or at least I don't think they expected,
6:45
Hayley: I definitely didn't expect myself
6:48
Hayley: to start a magazine, run a podcast, start Accessibly campaigns.
6:53
Hayley: I have always been really outspoken. Too talkative sometimes.
6:57
Hayley: Gets me in a bit of trouble. Gets me in a bit of trouble,
7:00
Hayley: seriously.
7:01
Hayley: My parents, they're very supportive. They're very supportive.
7:04
Hayley: They are the people telling me to
7:07
Hayley: go out there, dream bigger, and they feel that my
7:14
Hayley: campaign so far,
7:16
Hayley: this journey towards advocacy, meeting other blind people who are so successful,
7:21
Hayley: so inspirational,
7:24
Hayley: and it teaches me a lot. For this journey I've only started for a few months,
7:29
Hayley: but
7:30
Hayley: I've definitely gone across a few challenges,
7:35
Hayley: uncertainties.
7:38
Hayley: So I think they think it's a really good lesson for me to learn outside.
7:42
Hayley: It's out of school. It's not academic.
7:46
Hayley: And
7:48
Hayley: I can learn
7:49
Hayley: what I'm doing in the real world. Because I feel like school's very important,
7:53
Hayley: but it's very different to what I'm learning right now,
7:57
Hayley: aside from school.
7:59
Hayley: And I would say some teachers don't know if I'm focusing more on my academic
8:03
Hayley: studies or my projects.
8:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. Okay. Nothing wrong with that.
8:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No.
8:10
Hayley: I mean, it's a little bit concerning.
8:11
Hayley: [laughs]
8:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in your feature for Narratives Unseen,
8:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you wrote a line that has stayed with me, and it is,
8:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Blindness is not always darkness.
8:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is sometimes nothing."
8:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Unquote. What did you want sighted readers to understand when you
8:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: wrote it,
8:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and which misconceptions about blindness do you most want to
8:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: correct?
8:49
Hayley: Well, firstly,
8:51
Hayley: this quote, "Blindness is not always darkness.
8:55
Hayley: It is sometimes nothing,"
8:57
Hayley: resonates with me a lot because I am not completely blind.
9:00
Hayley: I did not know about this until I met fellow blind people in my high school that
9:05
Hayley: I go to currently. I learned this about five years ago.
9:09
Hayley: Because I was born sighted, fully sighted until six.
9:14
Hayley: And then I only started using a cane
9:18
Hayley: when I was 11.
9:21
Hayley: And I fully started using Braille when I was about 10,
9:25
Hayley: in the last year of primary school.
9:28
Hayley: So I didn't know a lot of things about blindness,
9:30
Hayley: and I thought it was darkness as well.
9:33
Hayley: And until one time we had an inclusivity assembly on disability week.
9:39
Hayley: And I decided to represent the disability
9:44
Hayley: society, if you call it, in my school. And I read something out in assembly,
9:49
Hayley: and one of the things my fellow classmates wrote about was blindness sometimes is
9:54
Hayley: nothing instead of darkness. It's, for example,
9:57
Hayley: you can't see out of your fingertips.
10:01
Hayley: Which is not always understandable,
10:04
Hayley: I think.
10:06
Hayley: So this is really important to me because I think a lot of the times people think
10:11
Hayley: darkness is blindness, blindness is darkness.
10:14
Hayley: Whereas sometimes blindness is just nothing. You can't see out of your nose.
10:18
Hayley: [laughs] What I want sighted readers to
10:23
Hayley: understand
10:25
Hayley: the most,
10:26
Hayley: misconceptions about blindness is—one of the things is that a lot of the time
10:32
Hayley: people ask me, "Oh, how did you see that chair?"
10:35
Hayley: Because I can see a little bit, as I mentioned.
10:39
Hayley: I use a white cane all the time, constantly.
10:42
Hayley: Except when I'm at home, [laughs] obviously.
10:45
Hayley: And in class I sometimes walk around chairs,
10:50
Hayley: or there's a bag on the floor and I manage to lift my foot off the ground.
10:54
Hayley: I sometimes see it, sometimes I don't, but sometimes I do.
10:57
Hayley: And my classmates are all very shocked. They're like,
11:00
Hayley: "How did you see it?" I'm saying there are large printers in my school,
11:05
Hayley: don't get me wrong. But they think people with a white cane just can't see at all.
11:09
Hayley: People with a white cane have lower vision,
11:12
Hayley: but sometimes they can still see. Sometimes they can see a chair.
11:16
Hayley: Sometimes they can see a foot, so never stick your foot out and trip them over.
11:20
Hayley: [laughs] Not that I have experienced that,
11:22
Hayley: but it's not always a good idea 'cause they might be able to see a foot and stamp
11:25
Hayley: on it. And that would be what I would be tempted to do.
11:28
Hayley: [laughs] But yeah, I think that's the biggest misconception,
11:33
Hayley: that blindness has a range. And for my disease, Stargardt's,
11:38
Hayley: it can never become zero.
11:41
Hayley: There's
11:46
Hayley: a large difference between having no
11:50
Hayley: visual perception compared to having a very, very small percentage,
11:55
Hayley: like 0.000001. You'll still see a few shadows.
12:00
Hayley: So
12:01
Hayley: that's the difference really, I think, for misconceptions.
12:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I will share with you that I was born with very little vision,
12:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so I could see certain little things like colors and so,
12:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but they were all blurred. And then when I was in my late teens,
12:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I had a cornea transplant that changed my world completely.
12:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I learned to read and write and do all kinds of things,
12:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and my world changed. But then about 15 years ago,
12:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I lost most of it, so now I'm almost totally blind,
12:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so I think I know what you're telling me here.
12:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
12:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let's talk about your podcast,
12:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Beyond Vision.
12:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What inspired you to start your own interview show,
12:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what do you hope listeners, blind and sighted alike,
12:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: would take away from each episode?
13:03
Hayley: So my podcast, Beyond Vision, began in, I believe, June or July,
13:09
Hayley: I cannot remember, and
13:12
Hayley: what inspired me to start it was how, over the course of my blindness,
13:17
Hayley: especially in the last five years,
13:21
Hayley: a lot of people approach me tentatively.
13:24
Hayley: I've known them for three or four years, teachers, students,
13:27
Hayley: or just people in public that I know,
13:30
Hayley: and they all are very careful about asking me how I became blind,
13:34
Hayley: what it's like to be blind, how much I can see.
13:38
Hayley: They're very tentative about it.
13:39
Hayley: I understand that sometimes people don't wanna talk about blindness and how they
13:42
Hayley: became blind, because they don't feel comfortable with it.
13:46
Hayley: But I feel like
13:48
Hayley: the public should be able to learn more about blind experiences.
13:52
Hayley: They're often very curious, and they're
13:55
Hayley: nervous to ask blind people. So I thought,
13:58
Hayley: why not create a podcast where you don't need to ask blind people?
14:00
Hayley: There is this information out there, and you can just go listen to it yourself.
14:04
Hayley: Each person, just as any other person who's not blind,
14:07
Hayley: has their own life, has their unique experiences,
14:10
Hayley: and you can listen to people with amazing careers, experiences,
14:16
Hayley: inspirational
14:18
Hayley: advice, lives,
14:21
Hayley: on the podcast, and that's what the podcast aims to do,
14:25
Hayley: and that's what really inspired me to start the interview shows.
14:29
Hayley: And over the course of
14:34
Hayley: just a few months of podcasting,
14:36
Hayley: I met so many amazing people that I never knew existed.
14:41
Hayley: I always knew there were two or three blind people in the world that were
14:45
Hayley: incredible, extremely intelligent, quite famous.
14:48
Hayley: But until I began my podcast and I started doing lots of research,
14:52
Hayley: even yesterday I was talking to my mom, and we were discussing how
14:57
Hayley: in the world there are so many
15:01
Hayley: opportunities and so many things we don't know about,
15:04
Hayley: including blind people with pioneering careers and achievements.
15:08
Hayley: So for example,
15:10
Hayley: I research into all categories, into politics, sports,
15:17
Hayley: music, academics, and in your case, I went into law as well.
15:22
Hayley: I interviewed you recently.
15:25
Hayley: And Lord Blunkett, for example, I had on the show a few months ago.
15:32
Hayley: I found his story very inspirational. Before his political career,
15:36
Hayley: he had to get his degree by himself.
15:42
Hayley: And I just also spoke to Daniel Kish,
15:46
Hayley: who created World Access for the Blind.
15:50
Hayley: And his accessibility and his way of navigation, and obviously I spoke to you,
15:56
Hayley: and I saw how determined you are, dedication,
16:00
Hayley: to fighting the accessibility for the websites in the Canadian government.
16:05
Hayley: So the podcast hasn't only really raised awareness of blind people and educated the
16:10
Hayley: public, it's really educated me as well.
16:13
Hayley: And so that's what's driving me towards the
16:17
Hayley: journey towards keep going, basically continuing my podcast journey,
16:22
Hayley: and I'm very looking forward to what will happen in the future.
16:27
Hayley: So yeah.
16:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If I had a crystal
16:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ball, young lady, I would say you are destined for big things.
16:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I mean it, and I'm so impressed with what you've done so far.
16:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As in just a few months,
16:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you have interviewed guests ranging from fellow teenagers
16:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to Lord David Blunkett, the former Home Secretary,
16:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and Daniel Kish, the ecological pioneer,
17:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: if I pronounced that correctly. [laughs] How do you choose your guests,
17:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and how did you find the courage to approach people of that
17:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: stature as a young host? And I will tell you,
17:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think I would have had the nerve to do it, but tell us.
17:22
Hayley: Well, how do I choose my guests?
17:25
Hayley: I chose you because you made such an achievement by fighting the court case
17:31
Hayley: over a period of more than six years, facing the appeal,
17:35
Hayley: facing all the stress of it,
17:37
Hayley: and also determination and the gap you saw in the accessibility
17:43
Hayley: features in Canada. And so I chose you as one of the guests purely because of that.
17:49
Hayley: And how I feel like everyone I've invited onto the podcast so far,
17:54
Hayley: one key feature is that they're incredibly resilient.
17:57
Hayley: Incredibly resilient.
17:59
Hayley: And I really admire each and every one of you that has gone on the podcast.
18:04
Hayley: And so as you mentioned just now,
18:06
Hayley: Lord Blunkett—he is an amazing politician.
18:11
Hayley: He went through 9/11, the Twin Towers, he had to navigate that.
18:18
Hayley: Daniel Kish is just incredible. I don't know how he manages.
18:23
Hayley: He does tongue clicks, and he echolocates.
18:26
Hayley: So he uses
18:28
Hayley: sound waves that bounce off surfaces to know where he is.
18:33
Hayley: So that is very interesting.
18:36
Hayley: And I think how I approach them, well, the beauty of technology,
18:40
Hayley: although I have to say I'm not very good at using technology,
18:43
Hayley: but I can send emails.
18:44
Hayley: And the beauty of technology is that I can approach anyone across the world.
18:51
Hayley: My podcast, it's gonna feature people from Australia,
18:56
Hayley: comedians. It's gonna feature
18:59
Hayley: academics, professors from different universities, authors,
19:04
Hayley: sports
19:06
Hayley: athletes,
19:08
Hayley: musicians from all different types of industries.
19:12
Hayley: And I approach them because of the admiration of their career,
19:16
Hayley: really. And I kind of get the courage.
19:19
Hayley: I'm always nervous
19:22
Hayley: when I reach out to people, when I'm talking to someone.
19:25
Hayley: But when you hear their amazing story, you kind of forget,
19:27
Hayley: and you're just in the zone of talking to them in the podcast.
19:30
Hayley: So before the recording, I'm just a bit uncertain. I'm like,
19:33
Hayley: "Oh, what have I gotten myself into? What did I do?
19:35
Hayley: Why did I email them?" And then after, when I get to speak to them,
19:39
Hayley: they're all very, very nice.
19:41
Hayley: You were so nice to me when you spoke to me as well after the recording.
19:44
Hayley: And
19:46
Hayley: it's really just mainly, you're all very kind, very supportive,
19:50
Hayley: even though I understand that when I first began, not that I've begun for very long,
19:56
Hayley: but I had minimal credibility, not a lot of credibility,
20:00
Hayley: because people didn't really know who I was then.
20:03
Hayley: People might think I'm a scam.
20:07
Hayley: And so I'm really grateful for people who have believed in
20:11
Hayley: a random 15-year-old who's appeared on their email inbox and asks to be
20:15
Hayley: interviewed, and they've agreed. And so I find that really encouraging,
20:19
Hayley: and that's really what brings me towards emailing the next person and the next one
20:24
Hayley: and the next one.
20:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Have you found any barriers to the fact that you are so young,
20:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or do you tell people your age?
20:36
Hayley: Oh, yes. I make sure to tell people my age,
20:39
Hayley: because I don't wanna give people surprises.
20:40
Hayley: [laughs] Can you imagine?
20:43
Hayley: [laughs] If I just appear on the podcast
20:49
Hayley: or my Tactile Map Accessibility Project in my presentations,
20:53
Hayley: and I'm just a 15-year-old girl, I think that would give them quite a shock.
20:57
Hayley: But definitely, as a young campaigner, I look at it through two ways.
21:02
Hayley: One way, they're like, oh, it's a youth-led podcast.
21:06
Hayley: Maybe they're more reluctant. But another way,
21:09
Hayley: I like to be optimistic. I like to believe that maybe they will help me.
21:15
Hayley: Like you, you mentioned in my podcast that
21:20
Hayley: your campaign is to help the future generation, the
21:23
Hayley: children,
21:25
Hayley: to do what you are doing right now. And so I'm really grateful,
21:29
Hayley: really, to all of them who have believed in me,
21:32
Hayley: believed in a 15 years old girl appearing on their email inbox and
21:38
Hayley: asking for an interview when they're extremely busy doing their own
21:43
Hayley: accessibility campaigns or advocacy work, or they are just their incredible careers.
21:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's true. But like I said, you have impressed me with the way at 15 years old,
21:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to have had
21:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Daniel Blunkett on your podcast.
22:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My God, that is a coup, a real coup,
22:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you know?
22:08
Hayley: Yes. Actually, to this day, I'm not quite sure why he agreed to my podcast.
22:12
Hayley: But it is very, very kind of him. It is very kind of him.
22:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And of all the conversations that you have had on Beyond Vision so
22:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: far, which story or lesson has stayed with you the most?
22:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And has any guest changed the way you think about your own
22:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: future?
22:38
Hayley: Wow, this is a hard question.
22:42
Hayley: All my guests have put me in awe.
22:46
Hayley: They have enabled me to see
22:50
Hayley: the potential ahead,
22:53
Hayley: the missing gap in my journey that I could still fill.
22:56
Hayley: There's so much I can do in the future, and they have enabled me to see that.
23:00
Hayley: And they're really, all of you on my podcast, stand as role models to me.
23:07
Hayley: But I think one of the lessons or
23:12
Hayley: thought processes that really
23:15
Hayley: resonated with me was Daniel Kish, when he said, "Independence is...
23:21
Hayley: There can never be too much accessibility. What is accessibility?
23:25
Hayley: Independence is also a form of freedom."
23:29
Hayley: And I recently adopted that and taken it to my tactile map presentations when I
23:34
Hayley: present to venues from all over the world.
23:37
Hayley: And I emphasize to them,
23:40
Hayley: the Tactile Map Project is not only a form of accessibility feature,
23:46
Hayley: but it is also a form of freedom.
23:50
Hayley: Being able to navigate a toilet by yourself, I think,
23:54
Hayley: is one of the most important things
23:57
Hayley: I could wish for, and hopefully what other people would wish for.
24:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's a very good way of looking at it, and I agree with you.
24:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I do.
24:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I understand your Tactile Map Accessibility Project
24:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: grew out of a very personal experience in an accessible
24:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: toilet [laughs] when you accidentally set off the
24:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: emergency alarm. Please share that story with our listeners,
24:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and tell us how it became the
24:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: spark for your campaign.
24:37
Hayley: Well,
24:38
Hayley: as you mentioned, there's an emergency cord,
24:42
Hayley: alarm attached to that story. So when I was about, let me think,
24:47
Hayley: when I was about
24:50
Hayley: 10 years old or 11, 10 years old, I think, I
24:55
Hayley: enrolled in a residential camp, and there was a disabled toilet,
25:00
Hayley: and no one described the toilet to me. I mean, I don't really blame them.
25:04
Hayley: Before that incident, or indeed until this year,
25:08
Hayley: I never realized anyone ever described the toilet to me until my mom told me that she
25:11
Hayley: did it every time I went in the toilet.
25:13
Hayley: But
25:15
Hayley: what happened was I was feeling around, trying to find my way around.
25:22
Hayley: And I felt a thin piece of rope and being curious,
25:25
Hayley: or maybe I don't wanna be curious sometimes now, but
25:30
Hayley: I pulled on it. I was like, "What will it do? What will it do?"
25:33
Hayley: Like, "Come on, let's try it out."
25:34
Hayley: [laughs] And then nothing happened, which was very odd,
25:38
Hayley: so I moved along. I was like, "Okay, nothing happened.
25:40
Hayley: Sure."
25:42
Hayley: And then
25:43
Hayley: two minutes later, I heard banging on the door. They were like,
25:46
Hayley: "Hayley, Hayley, what's wrong? What's wrong?" They were all panicking,
25:49
Hayley: and everyone was at my door, and I was like, "What's happened?
25:51
Hayley: What's happened?" I was like,
25:54
Hayley: "What?" And then apparently they told me to never mind and asked if I was all
25:59
Hayley: right, and then afterwards, apparently the entire common room,
26:02
Hayley: so about 30 kids in the common room,
26:05
Hayley: could hear
26:07
Hayley: the alarm going off from my bathroom. But I couldn't hear it from my bathroom.
26:10
Hayley: I don't know why. But
26:13
Hayley: that led me to be very embarrassed, and
26:17
Hayley: I thought,
26:18
Hayley: why don't you change an embarrassment to something more,
26:22
Hayley: maybe more practical.
26:24
Hayley: Change it somehow.
26:27
Hayley: I only started the tactile map recently, and that was five years ago,
26:31
Hayley: but between the five years,
26:33
Hayley: I've also experienced other times where I didn't know where the flush was.
26:36
Hayley: So I want to find the flush in the toilet, not even an accessible toilet,
26:40
Hayley: just a toilet, because not all venues have accessible toilets.
26:44
Hayley: And I try to find it, and I end up hitting my cheekbone and getting a bruise or
26:49
Hayley: getting hurt or just saying, "Ouch," really loud, which is really awkward.
26:54
Hayley: And you don't always wanna feel around because it's not very nice,
26:57
Hayley: and you don't know where the
27:01
Hayley: flush is. I always ask myself, is it a sensor?
27:05
Hayley: Well, is it a push? Is it a lever? Where do I push?
27:09
Hayley: Which way does it go?
27:11
Hayley: Where's the toilet paper? Which one is the dryer?
27:17
Hayley: And also, where is the sink? Because now that technology has improved,
27:22
Hayley: you can never find where anything is, because everything's hidden,
27:25
Hayley: and you just scan it. I can't scan if I can't see it.
27:32
Hayley: So, yeah, that's the story.
27:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I'll tell you,
27:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a few months ago I was in the UK, and
27:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was in a train station with my aunt, and
27:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wanted to go to the bathroom, and I did,
27:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but like you, I felt this rope. I went, "What the hell is this?
27:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is this the flusher? Is it... What the..." So I pulled it.
28:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And the next thing you know, banging at my door, "Are you okay?
28:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Are you okay?" And then the guy was just laughing. He said,
28:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "I had a feeling that you would pull that because you wanted to know what it was."
28:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, I mean,
28:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: join the club, you know?
28:17
Hayley: Yeah, I've heard of other people's stories where they don't know,
28:20
Hayley: two buttons side by side, which one's the flush. They push one of them,
28:24
Hayley: off it went.
28:27
Hayley: And also recently, I was talking to someone actually yesterday,
28:30
Hayley: and they were talking about how
28:33
Hayley: one time they were entering an airport, and
28:36
Hayley: both of them were blind. They have a staff member with them.
28:39
Hayley: And the staff member sent them into an accessible changing room without a toilet.
28:45
Hayley: But the staff member didn't know, and each of them went in by themself.
28:49
Hayley: They couldn't find a toilet, and they came back out.
28:52
Hayley: Wouldn't tell anyone, so the other friend went back in a changing room.
28:56
Hayley: Couldn't find a toilet and came back out, and so they had to hold it,
28:59
Hayley: and they never told the staff 'cause they were too embarrassed.
29:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. That's not good.
29:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, for listeners who have never come across one,
29:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what exactly is a tactile toilet map,
29:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and how does a blind person use it before stepping into the room?
29:28
Hayley: So a tactile map is a design where
29:37
Hayley: there are labels in braille and tactile lines showing where the door
29:43
Hayley: is. There's a opening gap where the toilet is,
29:50
Hayley: and where the dryer is. Where is the toilet paper? Where is the sink?
29:53
Hayley: Where is the soap?
29:55
Hayley: Where is the flush, obviously, and what kind of flush it is,
29:59
Hayley: and most importantly, I made sure to include where the emergency cord is.
30:05
Hayley: And the thing is, before I started this campaign,
30:08
Hayley: I didn't know that every single bathroom had a emergency cord in it.
30:11
Hayley: I didn't even really think about if there was an emergency cord in it.
30:15
Hayley: I think it's more of a truth that is not spoken, but known.
30:19
Hayley: But sighted people don't always realize,
30:21
Hayley: because blind people sometimes don't know some of the most obvious things in daily
30:26
Hayley: life, such as an emergency cord existing in a accessible toilet.
30:30
Hayley: Well, certainly I wouldn't have exactly thought about it,
30:34
Hayley: and if I needed to push that thing, I wouldn't know where it was,
30:37
Hayley: what it looked like,
30:37
Hayley: or what happens if—I don't know what I would have done if I don't know where the
30:42
Hayley: emergency cord was.
30:44
Hayley: So that is essentially what a tactile map is.
30:48
Hayley: But recently, I have also developed an additional thing on my website,
30:52
Hayley: which is adding an audio guide. So
30:56
Hayley: as well as tactile map, it's in a QR code.
30:58
Hayley: And because I promote my tactile maps mainly to public venues like museums,
31:03
Hayley: zoos, theaters from all around the world, tourists come,
31:07
Hayley: and they speak different languages. So audio guides can give different languages.
31:12
Hayley: And also, not everyone knows how to read braille.
31:16
Hayley: Some people have deteriorating sight later in life,
31:19
Hayley: and audio guides might help them.
31:22
Hayley: Some people can't read braille, audio guides might help them.
31:25
Hayley: Or you can read braille with a tactile map and the audio guide at the same time.
31:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a great idea. I never even thought of that,
31:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but yeah. Yes.
31:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, here in Canada, our
31:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: transportation
31:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: regulator has fined several major airports for
31:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: failing to provide tactile and braille signage to the
31:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: areas that guide dogs users need.
32:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So your work resonates far beyond the UK.
32:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What would you say to building managers, airports,
32:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and businesses anywhere in the world who believe that a small
32:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: accessibility fix is not worth the effort?
32:23
Hayley: I think this is certainly a very important question you've asked,
32:27
Hayley: and I thank you for asking.
32:30
Hayley: One thing I've found is,
32:32
Hayley: my own philosophy is that I don't think anyone doesn't think accessibility is
32:37
Hayley: worth the effort. I think everyone at heart are very kind,
32:41
Hayley: and they all seek to be more inclusive.
32:45
Hayley: Very encouraging to me, at least, when I speak to the venues.
32:49
Hayley: I've had very positive feedback.
32:53
Hayley: In terms of if they would be reluctant, I think, well,
32:56
Hayley: if you're reluctant, be nosy.
32:59
Hayley: Because if other venues have, let's say, my tactile map,
33:04
Hayley: and you look around at other venues, you'll see how it works.
33:08
Hayley: And if then you're interested, feel free to come.
33:11
Hayley: I could talk to you,
33:13
Hayley: and we can work stuff out from there. Be nosy, I always think.
33:17
Hayley: If other people have accessibility features, stay open-minded.
33:21
Hayley: But the problem with open-mindedness is that you won't know if you're not
33:24
Hayley: open-minded, if you're absent-minded, because you don't know yourself.
33:29
Hayley: And so my theory is just be nosy.
33:32
Hayley: Just look around at other people. Look at fellow airports.
33:35
Hayley: Look at fellow venues,
33:37
Hayley: and see what they're doing. [laughs] Catch up with the latest.
33:40
Hayley: Even though if you're not planning to do it, you can always be nosy,
33:44
Hayley: and just look around. Keep on the latest.
33:48
Hayley: Accessibility is never not worth it.
33:51
Hayley: It is merely a question of time.
33:54
Hayley: Sometimes venues have other things to prioritize.
33:57
Hayley: But certainly, I would really appreciate it if they would,
34:01
Hayley: when they have the time, reach out to me,
34:04
Hayley: which a lot of venues have said that they are quite busy right now,
34:07
Hayley: but would love to talk in half a year time. And they have set dates,
34:11
Hayley: they have set committee times where they would discuss it later this year or next
34:15
Hayley: year. And this really means a lot,
34:18
Hayley: because it doesn't mean they're not thinking it's worth it.
34:20
Hayley: It's merely that they're very busy with other accessibility features that are
34:24
Hayley: maybe equally important.
34:27
Hayley: But they're also keeping an open mind, keeping a open eye,
34:32
Hayley: and making sure that they are kept to the latest accessibility features.
34:36
Hayley: What I have found with Canada so far is that they are very,
34:41
Hayley: very encouraging to me. They have been very inclusive.
34:44
Hayley: I have a couple of venues I'm going to be speaking to and presenting to in Canada.
34:50
Hayley: So I think in Canada, it's quite inclusive.
34:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that comment.
34:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Now, you have chosen to give your design,
35:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: fitting guidance, and toolkit away for free.
35:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And your petition even tells supporters that you are not
35:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: asking for donations.
35:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Why was it so important to you that anyone,
35:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: anywhere can use your work without cost of permission?
35:31
Hayley: So ever since I can remember, I am only 15, but ever since I can remember,
35:37
Hayley: I've always been really inclined towards charitable works.
35:42
Hayley: And I never knew what I could do to actually contribute.
35:45
Hayley: Yes, I make donations to different venues, or I ask my parents to make donations,
35:50
Hayley: really. [laughs] But I never thought, "What could I actively do to contribute,
35:56
Hayley: to make a more positive impact in society, in the world?"
36:00
Hayley: And
36:02
Hayley: I never knew that,
36:02
Hayley: but apparently I've been told that I've always been a strong advocate for myself
36:07
Hayley: when it comes to inadequate support or accessibility,
36:11
Hayley: I think much to the annoyance of everyone else.
36:15
Hayley: And so [laughs] what I think is important is that
36:21
Hayley: my work is nonprofit. It's to help
36:24
Hayley: the accessibility features. It's to help the blind and visually impaired community.
36:30
Hayley: I'm not here to sell anything. I'm here merely to provide an idea,
36:34
Hayley: and hope that through my efforts I can encourage
36:39
Hayley: more venues to install tactile maps or audio guides to their toilet
36:45
Hayley: facilities.
36:47
Hayley: And I hope that increases independence, freedom,
36:52
Hayley: help along the way for accessibility,
36:56
Hayley: and I'm really very excited to see where that will go
37:02
Hayley: in a couple of years' time. Because I see amazing feedback right now,
37:06
Hayley: and I'm really excited to see what will happen in the next week,
37:11
Hayley: the next month, the next year, in five years, in 10 years.
37:14
Hayley: I want to see how this project will go.
37:17
Hayley: It's not about monetizing it.
37:21
Hayley: My petition is to garner support, to raise awareness,
37:25
Hayley: and money has never really gone into the topic.
37:30
Hayley: I am providing venues with ideas,
37:32
Hayley: and I'm gonna be really grateful to them if they take it on.
37:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You
37:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: don't get too many young people of your age,
37:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I'm not going to stress that your age.
37:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] But too many
37:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: youngsters
37:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: don't think that way, and
37:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: this is something I really wish that we could see more of,
37:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you know? People thinking, "I'm not in it for the money."
37:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But then again, someone is gonna say to us, "Well, I need the money,"
38:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: right? So it's a balance there. I know for me, I've always
38:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: been one to give. I think it's important.
38:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As long as I'm able to give, I will give.
38:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because it's the only way that I think we can build our future
38:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: in a better way.
38:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
38:24
Hayley: Yes, and I think that is really important as well.
38:26
Hayley: That's kind of what is bringing me towards what I'm doing right now,
38:30
Hayley: like podcasting and my Tactile Map Project,
38:33
Hayley: where people are giving in the time for me to interview them
38:39
Hayley: to show other people and myself their own inspirational careers,
38:45
Hayley: their admirable personalities and characteristics and traits,
38:49
Hayley: their dedication. And it's
38:52
Hayley: really kind of them to respond to me, and to respond to me to
38:59
Hayley: talk about their experiences, and it's nonprofit as well.
39:03
Hayley: My podcast is nonprofit.
39:06
Hayley: And it is really towards helping and making a more positive contribution to
39:12
Hayley: society, and that's what my aim is. And
39:16
Hayley: if anyone ever approaches me with a nonprofit initiative,
39:20
Hayley: I think I would love to have a look at it and definitely see what we could do to
39:24
Hayley: move it on forwards. Because every day when I wake up,
39:28
Hayley: it's really my incentive to wake up now to look at my emails.
39:31
Hayley: Otherwise I'll be staying in bed because it's too cold.
39:35
Hayley: To look at my emails and see who's emailed me, who's agreed to my podcast.
39:39
Hayley: And in the evening before bed,
39:41
Hayley: I look at my phone and I see emails and emails from people,
39:44
Hayley: and I'm like, it makes my day. It absolutely makes my day.
39:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your petition has been closing in on its first goal of
39:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 1,000 signatures,
39:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and your next step is to take it to your school's leadership,
40:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to the Surrey County Council.
40:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What has it been like to campaign for change as a teenager,
40:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what would success look like for you over the coming year?
40:24
Hayley: Well,
40:29
Hayley: I checked today. We have reached around 1,000 and, let me think,
40:34
Hayley: 44 signatures, which I'm very pleased with.
40:38
Hayley: I'm very grateful for all the support everyone's giving out.
40:41
Hayley: People I've emailed, venues I've emailed, all signed my petition,
40:46
Hayley: showing their support.
40:49
Hayley: In terms of school, my school has been the first
40:54
Hayley: venue, if you call it, to manufacturing my tactile maps.
40:58
Hayley: They were the first
41:00
Hayley: to help me at really the push towards... I had this idea.
41:04
Hayley: They were the final push to manufacturing two tactile maps for my school,
41:09
Hayley: because we have two accessibility
41:12
Hayley: toilets. And I'm very grateful to them because some of my teachers at school are
41:17
Hayley: absolutely amazing.
41:19
Hayley: They brought me to the Rotary Club
41:22
Hayley: to give a speech there, which is also featured on my website,
41:25
Hayley: https://tactilemapproject.org, where I spoke
41:31
Hayley: about my project and garnered everyone's support, and they were very kind about it.
41:37
Hayley: They asked me questions, and it's just helping me build this
41:43
Hayley: confidence and network of people I can reach out to.
41:48
Hayley: So in terms of school, I think it's going the right way.
41:54
Hayley: They are looking always to improve the accessibility features,
41:57
Hayley: because I go to a visually impaired
42:01
Hayley: unit.
42:04
Hayley: My school has a visually impaired unit in it, so we have about 12
42:08
Hayley: young people in there who are partially sighted or blind or large printers and
42:13
Hayley: braillists.
42:15
Hayley: And in terms of Surrey County Council, I'm definitely looking at
42:20
Hayley: emailing them about this project,
42:23
Hayley: seeing if we can get some installed in town centers,
42:27
Hayley: shopping centers, theaters nearby.
42:31
Hayley: And I think Surrey has always been
42:35
Hayley: a very inclusive society. We're very close, all of us.
42:40
Hayley: And so I think that will go in a very correct direction,
42:43
Hayley: very right direction, positive direction really.
42:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm going to close this interview with an offer I'd like to make to you.
42:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've been working on a project called Believing is Achieving,
42:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what it is,
43:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it is hosting camps for kids who are about ready to leave high school
43:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and those who are entering the workplace for the first time.
43:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I say to them, "Believing is achieving.
43:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If you cannot believe, you cannot achieve.
43:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in order to believe, you have to start off with a dream,
43:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a desire, an aspiration,
43:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: something like that, right?" Once you have that in your mind,
43:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: your dream, your aspiration, your belief, your desire,
43:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: we can go to the next point, but you can't go there unless this first block is met.
43:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The next thing is to help them develop their independence,
43:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: because independence is freedom, and their confidence,
43:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and then I will show them how to build virtues that will enhance their
43:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: personal and professional profiles.
44:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And finally,
44:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will help them to discover the pitfalls that they should avoid.
44:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This camp, Believing is Achieving, has legs.
44:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I say legs, I mean it has potential.
44:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And the first thing that we're gonna be doing is I'm working with the Independent
44:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Living Canada
44:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: organization to host a
44:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: week... Well, I call it a weekend camp, but it'll be more than a weekend,
44:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: in Quebec next year. I'd like to invite you to
44:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: be a part of our team when we are a bit further ahead.
44:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You never know if such a camp could take off in the UK.
44:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't see why it cannot take off anywhere.
44:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If you're interested, let me know, and I'll send you more information.
44:53
Hayley: Well, firstly, I think it's such a good initiative really,
44:59
Hayley: and I'm sure it will take off anywhere you put it because it's such a good—it's so
45:03
Hayley: important really right now.
45:05
Hayley: I certainly know some charities I'm in contact with who
45:10
Hayley: talk to the young people who are looking to go into work or move on from high
45:16
Hayley: school, and I'm sure people in the United Kingdom would be very interested to
45:21
Hayley: contribute and come and join.
45:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So in the coming weeks, I will set something up for you.
45:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, which is the best time to catch you?
45:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 'Cause you'll be five hours ahead of me as of next week.
45:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
45:36
Hayley: Yes. Well, I am mostly free on weekends.
45:43
Hayley: I sleep at 11.
45:46
Hayley: And let me think.
45:49
Hayley: Oh, well, I've got school.
45:53
Hayley: That's the problem.
45:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, we could do it on a weekend. I mean, I'm very,
45:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: very flexible.
45:58
Hayley: If you don't mind working on a weekend. [laughs]
46:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I don't. I work on the weekend all the time, so.
46:03
Hayley: Well, that's brilliant. Yes.
46:06
Hayley: Well, how does this work? Is it online? Is it...
46:09
Hayley: I mean, the actual camp.
46:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It could be anything. The one that we're holding in Quebec,
46:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or we want to hold next year in Quebec, will be at a camp resort.
46:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It'll be over a few days. It'll be face to face. But
46:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've also developed workshops and stuff like that,
46:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: workshops online, virtual workshops and sessions online.
46:34
Hayley: But do you know approximately what month it is in?
46:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not sure when we are going to have this next year,
46:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but I should know in the coming weeks when exactly.
46:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We're hoping to have it from a Wednesday to a Sunday.
46:50
Hayley: Okay. Yes, because I've got my GCSEs exams,
46:54
Hayley: which are big exams and national exams.
46:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In June?
46:59
Hayley: May and June. So I might be able to come in July or August.
47:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
47:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are gonna go on to A levels, yes?
47:10
Hayley: Definitely. Definitely.
47:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right on.
47:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so I will keep this in mind.
47:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'd like to talk to you more about this in the coming weeks if you're okay.
47:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I could set something up.
47:21
Hayley: Of course. It would be an absolute pleasure.
47:23
Hayley: Thank you for thinking about that.
47:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I can't begin to tell you, Hayley, how impressed I am.
47:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My God, at your... When I was your age, well, it was a different era then,
47:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but my gosh. Oh, I don't know what to say.
47:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I'm so pleased to have met you, and we will work together.
47:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Promise you that.
47:45
Hayley: Well, I'm really looking forward to it. You are a role model right now for me,
47:51
Hayley: and will always be really with the incredible work you've done,
47:55
Hayley: and I'm absolutely flattered to be working with you if it happens with that.
48:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will make it happen, and I will set something up for us in the coming...
48:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: One Saturday, I think, on the weekend. I don't know which weekend.
48:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to look at it.
48:09
Hayley: You know what? I've got a calendar. I can send it over,
48:12
Hayley: and you can pick whenever you like.
48:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
48:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Send it over to me, and I'll pick it.
48:18
Hayley: Okay. It would just be the podcast calendar, but you can ignore the title.
48:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, so we'll just have a plain old Zoom conversation.
48:26
Hayley: Yeah, of course.
48:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right?
48:28
Hayley: All right then.
48:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hayley, it was a pleasure, a privilege.
48:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very, very much. You go, girl.
48:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go get 'em. [laughs]
48:39
Hayley: [laughs] Thank you very much, Donna.
48:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Have a good rest of the day now.
48:44
Hayley: Bye. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
48:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thanks, Hayley. Bye-bye.
48:48
Hayley: Bye.
48:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye.
48:50
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at
48:56
Podcast Commentator: donnajodhan@gmail.com.
48:59
Podcast Commentator: Until next time.