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Joanna Cooper: Discovering Bold Ways to Lead · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and I've got to get it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Motivated and inspired to bold stories.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be screened.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the bold lounge.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Today I have Joanna Cooper.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: She is the Daimler Truck North America's general manager in Mount Holly.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's also recently named as a woman and manufacturing board member, and she continues to bridge what I think is really cool competence and confidence.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, how are you?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So great to be here today.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I wondered if there's anything else I've missed in that intro, did you want to add anything on?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that as we get talking, you are going to put me on the spot.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll let everything else.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: It'll all come out.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: It'll all come out.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So as we start, like I would love to know what your definition of bold is.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: What does bold look like to Joanna?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Lee, bold to me is living life, chasing all the things that truly scare you, because you know somewhere in the end that that's where your purpose truly lies.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so from the perspective of chasing things that scare you.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: So from the, you know, stepping into fear, stepping into the unknown, stepping into when you're not sure, all those things, all the above, check, check, and check.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all of that.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Check, check, and check.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then when's the first time you remember doing that based on your definition?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: When was the first time you were bold?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And when I did the for reading of the questions, I had to try to think about hey, when was the first time I was actually bold?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then what story haven't I told yet?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I would go into when I was in high school, uh, middle school and high school, I actually played the cello on top of playing basketball and being an exemplary student.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I played the cello.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had the opportunity to go to the UK to play with my high school.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember that was the first time really truly being out of the country, you know, outside of going to like Canada or Mexico for vacations.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that experience.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love the people.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love what I thought that they exemplified as far as their passion for their culture.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's nothing like ancient, you know, European old style castles and things like that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to myself, you know, at some point in my life, I wanted to be able to live overseas.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't say it to anyone else.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of kept that into the coffers of my heart.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And 10 years later, after graduating from college, trying to be a real estate tycoon and failing, I started working for this company that was international, Daimler, AG, now Daimler Truck.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I got the opportunity while working for Daimler to live overseas and do an expat assignment in Germany.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so that 10-year goal, that 10-year prior desire, that want, that I didn't know how to make it happen.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what was going to come from me.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know if it was even be a possibility.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: But holding on to that for that period of time allowed some things to happen.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I had the courage at the time when the offer was presented to say yes and go and do something that, you know, even my parents hadn't done.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's something so powerful about placing something, you said, like in the coffers of your heart, like you planted the seed, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was there.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't push it away.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't say, oh, that's impossible or that'll never happen.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't negative self-talk yourself, which we can do.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think I don't know if women do it more than men, but I feel like we do.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: We probably talk ourselves out of certain things or say, oh, well, that's too much or too long or too far.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Put in whatever after two.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's something interesting about boldness and international travel.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I'm just kind of fascinated with that because I do think it's bold.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's bold not only to travel in general, but I think it's bold, you know, to live and work in another country.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: What is something that you took away from that experience like that you were surprised about?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: In that experience, especially moving into another country and another culture.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would say that everything that I had come to know to be true was thrown up in the air.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: That that includes, you know, the the fundamental value, things that my parents had taught, the how I thought life should be lived, the things that I thought should be pursued, that was all thrown up in the air.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really difficult because that was my core.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is what my life up until that point had been built upon.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then when all of the pieces fell, it wasn't black and white anymore.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like this, you know, beautiful landscape or you know, complex artwork with a lot of different colors and sharp angles and designs.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there were some fundamental truths that that prevailed.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Treat others like you want to be treated.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then in every single part of the world, you know, people all want the same things, to have relationships that they value, to be able to live their life with a purpose.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a million different ways to achieve the same result.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what that has helped me do as a leader is, you know, it's helped me to remain curious.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also helped me to have the ability to allow people to do things in the way that they can do them best.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: That there's no one way to skin the cat, uh, to use that cliche.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a million different ways to achieve the result, but can I identify what that result is and outline it and set the vision for my team and then give them the freedom within their own unique perspectives to achieve that.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: You sound like a really good leader.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So letting people figure out the path, they know what the outcome needs to be, but how I would get there, how you would get there, how you know your staff, my stuff, they all have a different way.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's some, you know, common stepping stones that we always use, but we're not always going to go there the same way.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's always interesting, even like I think of math, like solving math problems, like between my husband, uh, who's an engineer, my daughter, who's brilliant, and myself, like the way that we figure out math is so different.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'll subtract something, they'll add something, he'll calculate, you know, like it, but we all get the same answer.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's like different ways of solving the problem.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And as a leader, letting people do it.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that you said that's kind of what you thought, what you'd been, how you'd been raised or what you've been told kind of went up in the air.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Anything specific that comes to mind?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, like the conventions and some of the things that were told to you, like they didn't like either pan out or they weren't true in another country, or they weren't the same.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, from a spiritual perspective, I I grew up in in church.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my my parents they migrated from Louisiana to Detroit.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I was still some in a in like a black Baptist church.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was used to going to church on Sundays, that was the rule.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Then, you know, you had usher practice, inquirer, all of those things, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I went to Germany, right, no one went to church.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not really, like about you know, a small percentage of the population went to church.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: The churches were more uh attractions where you can go and look at the beauty of the architecture, but it wasn't like it was a requirement for people to go into church on Sunday.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: However, on Sunday, everything closed.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So outside of being able to go for a few hours in the morning to get some fresh bread or maybe go sit at a coffee shop with friends, it wasn't a thing where you it wasn't a place where you can just plan something to do on Sunday, not even grocery shop.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you didn't get your groceries on Saturday before they close, you're gonna be fasting until Monday because you you weren't gonna have an opportunity to just go to the to the store and do things.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I felt it being a culture where the quality of life was definitely valued, as well as family and friend time.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So on Sundays were the days where friends would get together and I mean we would she would spend all day, or families would get together and go walk in the field.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and that was really fundamental for me because it wasn't about the action of going to church and doing all of these things in church, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: I really actually was able to develop my own relationship spiritually as well as get to really live the Sabbath day as I think it was intended to be.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually, even though it's been eight years since I've been back, that's something that I still really hold on to because it really left a valuable impression on my life.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: In the sense of just if we extrapolate this out to being an adult, I mean, even as adults, I think sometimes we're learning things that, you know, we thought, oh, that's the way it's done, that's how it goes.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or I know when I started my business at 48, I realized that wow, I have the power, you know, like nobody needs to come in and save me, no one needs to tell me I'm gonna be this or that, and no one needs to promote me.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm it you know, like there's there's a pressure to that, but there's also wonderful freedom, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's like the pressure to do and kind of make your way as you were doing it abroad, and then being able to like then establish, okay, this is these are my beliefs, this is what I will do, this is how I'm gonna operate.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, how did you pull that forward into the role that you have now?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of the things that you're doing now is leading a group and making things happen in an in an industry that isn't usually filled with women.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is that fair to say?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, women are starting to trickle in more and more in the manufacturing environment, but I would say it's not necessarily a traditional space when you grow up and you think about what you want to be when you grow up.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Being a plant manager of a truck plan is not something that's typically on the list, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually being a nurse or a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher or just a housewife, whatever you want to be.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Those are um, those are the things not necessarily in what was traditionally considered a male-dominated environment.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say my path to this environment really taps into that chasing the things that scare you.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I started my career with Daimler in procurement, and I spent the first seven years doing that, three of the seven being in Germany.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And when I left that role in Germany, or when I was coming to the end of the expat assignment, I knew I wanted to do something different.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what, but I knew it was time to shift and to move or to pivot.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that when I was looking for a position, I wanted something that was still cross-functional, that gave me an opportunity to still collaborate globally, right, that had some dynamics to it because I have a very strong high-D, if you know the disc personality, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So disruption and chaos is probably part of what I need to feel at home in the workspace.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I pivoted to a role doing program and project management.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And during that time, I had a mentor that sat down with me.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And in our first session, he asked me, Where do you see yourself in 20 years?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And my gut told me, Hey, I want your job.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something I had never even thought to really frame my experience and then and where his job would take me.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually took me into manufacturing operations.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm kind of stuck because I love manufacturing.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's the perfect blend of my personality as well as the stress, the pressure, and the competitiveness that I'm used to from being from being an athlete.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then the experience from Germany and the experience in purchasing that wasn't for naught.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me a certain level of business acumen that really helps me to see and perceive manufacturing in a much different way.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, since, you know, it's really easy when you come up through a space to think that you know everything, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've seen so many things.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you get that.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's how it's always been done.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've elected to do a lot of new things and say yes to so many different things.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have built this ability to remain curious and to question, hey, if I think I know the answer, then maybe I need to look a little bit deeper, right?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to take a step back and pay attention.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I do try to bring that in how I lead my team, the questions that I ask, and also the expectations that I set for myself.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: The curious leader.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's something about curiosity and boldness that are connected to it's something that you know I keep learning more about and creating kind of the connections from curiosity and boldness to actually our performance, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think all of those are actually connected to a growth mindset.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna fail.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And man, I've learned so much more from my failures, which you know hopefully become successes than I have when I succeed instant, you know, like at the at the start of something.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't like to fail, but I mean, I definitely figure out what to learn from what happened.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do I not do again?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: What how did I handle that?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or what do I like, where do I start?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or what you know, what could I do more of or less of?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not always about adding more.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's taking stuff away.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's no easy path to that, you know.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So when you like you talked about your learnings and you talked about kind of big picture thinking and being able, because of your experience, to see the big picture of something, get down into the details, and then be able to handle or fix or work on or, you know, lead forward whatever initiatives that you have.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also this piece of stress and pressure and competitiveness, which we talked a little bit before we started taping about.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I usually work in areas with companies where things aren't working and they need to get, and sometimes they're really big messes.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, okay, you know, I always say we're jumping in the deep end, but everyone's got floaties, and we're all going to make sure like we're gonna figure this out.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: No one's gonna, you know, get hurt.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think about all the things that you've done in your your career to now, what is an example of one of the projects that was a mess?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can give as little or as much detail as you'd want, but was a real mess.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And what part did boldness play in the solutioning?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Back in, I want to say it was 2018, where in a position I was working in, we transitioned our manufacturing control system to a more upgraded system.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we went from a system that looked like the Matrix when you were looking at it into something that was a little bit more into the into the future.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: With those IT type changes, I mean, there always come challenges because the system was made to always be able to manage a perfect environment.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And manufacturing is all but that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Manufacturing, we're always chasing to get back to the standard, and once you can sustain that, right, then you're always trying to improve.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there were, you know, workarounds and things.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we launched the system, the first night went great, and then it was like turmites were right in the house, and then everything fell over, and it was probably the most stressful time in my career.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: However, things had gotten so bad.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember sitting in a in my office one morning with a dear colleague of mine, uh, Brooke, and we were just chatting.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember asking her, so, hey, if you could change six things within the next 90 days, what would they be?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we sat there and we wrestled through like what those things would be to really see a result.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then we started asking ourselves, all right, do we have the right people on the team to achieve the result, or who do we need to draft as kind of free agents to support the team that's already in place going going through this challenge with us to do this?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so we put this team together and we call it team underdog, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we were the ones like actually in the fight, trying to make it happen and trying to dig out.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And all she and I did was think about okay, what do we want to achieve?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: What does success look like and define it?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But we allowed the team to come up with their ways as they were positioned in our matrix on their sub-teams to figure out how to achieve the result.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we were just there to support them.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned from that experience, as hard as it was, is that always be willing to take the time to reflect and take a step back and try to see the problem from a new angle.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you need to scrap whatever you think the solution is and start at the beginning of the drawing board to redefine what success looks like.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've taken that over and over and over again, and I've seen it work over and over and over again that as a leader, I don't have to come up with all the solutions.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: What I need to do is develop the atmosphere of psychological safety, of courage, right, of inclusiveness that allows those solutions to come to light and also give the freedom for the team to do it in a way that also matches who they are.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: So big piece of boldness in that that I want to pull out is things were messy.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: You sat down to think about what could be different and who was needed for the solution.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't just you as a leader leading or controlling or masterminding the solution.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, we need all hands on deck, we need all brilliant minds and all ideas, and I'm gonna be here to support you.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I may not be the one with the highest level of knowledge or the you know, I know I in multiple times like my team is the reason I succeed, you know.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I know I have expertise and have things that are very, very valuable, but it does take a team to do something.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: It it you know, like what you just described, and what you did as a leader and really showing those leadership qualities is you let them lead, you know.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So from the perspective of figuring it out, figuring out the way to do it, and then the solutioning that they were able to do, you know, that was bold.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that you said in there, I think which was really important, is you took time to like just reflect.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: How important is that for leaders to understand when things are going left, like it isn't instantaneously coming up with the answer and like jumping in with a solution that sometimes actually slowing down or taking that time can help you come up with what's next.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be the solution, but it may be the best of what's next.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's extremely important.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I personally spend six to eight hours a week in some level of reflection.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have built my days and my week around it because as leaders, we have so much information that's coming at us.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: You also need to have the time to decipher and determine how all of those pieces fit together, if they fit, and then what to do with them if you are supposed to do something with them moving forward.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you research any leader that has ever come, whether it be a president or anything, they all have certain things in common.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're lifelong learners.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: They read a lot.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not reading, they're, you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts like yours and a lot of books, but they also spend time journaling in and reflection because I think it's in that reflection that you're able to take yourself out of the center, which oftentimes we have to do, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to lead yourself where you can lead others.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to lead yourself, you have to make sure am I doing this or I'm making this decision because of my own ego, or is something happening within me that's driving something, or is it actually the right for the team and for the business?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I do believe that the only way that you can data mine and peel back those layers is through reflection.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also a way of taking care of yourself.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you can apply this to like any level of your life, like it, you know, your your personal life, your professional life, but taking time to reflect, taking time to slow down, taking time to take care of yourself.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I know I go, go, go, and I saw, whoa, I feel like a little bit frazzled.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need to reset.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's knowing when you're out of alignment and doing something about it, right?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it understanding what out of alignment really means, because like the self-care that I proclaim to have in 2018 is maintenance now.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a required kind of like maintenance routine.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really self-care anymore.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's something that's baked into my life to try to piece together the balance.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But as we continue to grow in our leadership or in our successes, the system always asks us for more.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes at the time when we feel unbalanced, is not because our self-care isn't working, it's because we need to do something differently.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've been asked to unlock a different level that's going to require even more of us to dig a little bit deeper.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really think that life is just this progress.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: To become better and better and better by unlocking new levels uh in order to achieve the next level of success.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's saying no, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times it's saying no.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: When's the time that you said no that actually ended up being a really good thing for you, whether it's an outcome or your personal life, or like you said no, and it's it for a good reason, and this is why.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it helped you progress or rest or you could focus on a different project.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Did anything come to mind?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, several things come to mind.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've had opportunities to pursue new job offers or new avenues of my professional development that when I look at my 20-year plan of where I want to be, it would be good for me.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: However, you know, I also have made a commitment to my team today.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I am and my life here in Charlotte coming here like within the last two years, and just really trying to attack or grow some other levels of my life where the answer wasn't necessarily no, but it was not now.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not now.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that sometimes it's not the no's, but it's recognizing the not now because I know what a yes feels like.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's very clear when the answer needs to be yes.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not a clear yes, then it could be a not now, it could be a wait, or it could end up being a no.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that that will unravel itself as we move forward in life to determine, you know, what the right next thing is.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that goes back to the value of reflection.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't feel it in my gut, if I it doesn't feel like that yes, then sometimes it's a no, but a lot of times it's a not now.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Keep looking, keep seeking, keep searching.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Don't feel that pressure to say yes or no.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And not now doesn't mean you're indecisive.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: It just means you're waiting to decide, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or you need to collect more data.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: You need to collect more facts.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Need more information for that, you know, before you could even answer it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one thing just for the listeners to hear is like they don't always have to have the answer and they don't always have to say yes or no, it can be not now.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you could really apply that across your your roles and as well as in your personal life.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the boldest things you can do is be willing to admit you don't know.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because we oftentimes feel like we have to have a decision.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: We have to make a decision.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And a girlfriend and mine have been wrestling back and forth.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you need to revisit something a million times over because you're still trying to work it out for yourself in your own mind what the right next step is.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that takes time.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so being able to rest in the I don't know, and even in a leadership role or an entrepreneurial role where you're leading a whole team, to let your team see your willingness and your vulnerability to wait to make the right decision versus feeling like you have to have all of the right answers.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think it helps you, but it also helps them as well, be able to have the courage to do the same.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: To say, I don't know.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I wholeheartedly agree.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as leaders, as women, and insert every other title we have in our life, uh, to know the answers, to take care of others, to prevent things from happening, to make sure things happen.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think the one thing when we say we don't know, and I'm I need more information or I need to think about this is that we're actually giving ourselves permission to really understand what are the ins and outs or what could happen, and to be more thoughtful and pragmatic.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we pressurize ourselves sometimes internally, like we do it to ourselves.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think just for those people out there that need to hear this today, you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to answer today.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And a not now is an answer.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is so is no and so is yes.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, there's a lot, you know, no gets a lot of air time, like on LinkedIn, you know, no is a complete sentence and all that jazz.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've all seen a thousand posts on it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I think not now is a complete sentence, too.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is, yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's important for people to hear that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I definitely want to talk about is your board role and how that kind of goes back to I think reflection and manifesting and being able to see the possible, you know, when it may not be possible or seem possible.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So visibility of the possibilities, being in the role that you're in now, that it is a non-traditional role.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think tell me a little bit about why it's important for you to be on the board and what it means.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: So specifically being a director on the board for women in manufacturing, it's a phenomenal organization that actually started out as like women in metal forming, and then it it quickly transformed into women in manufacturing, and it's very inclusive for all different types of manufacturing.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So not just automotive or trucking.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: You have women that work at Pfizer, you have women that manufacture cat litter, like anything that requires something to get put together or extract something.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's an inclusive space for women to come for leadership development as well as to find community.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And what the goal and the mission is, is to attract more and more women into the space to know that they also have a place here.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: For me, being a woman, being in manufacturing in this non-traditional space, I think it's very important to be visible and not for myself.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's for all of those that are seeking out what it is that they want to do in their lives, not quite being able to pinpoint it, because I would have loved to tell you that I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up, when I was five years old, but I didn't.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: It took me saying a lot of yeses and being bold and going off into doing new things to find my place.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to be a walking advertisement for the space that women can also hold and find success and purpose and fulfillment that they may not necessarily be exposed to as young children.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we try to do on the board of directors is implement those policies and procedures and talk about and drive those things that really help to spotlight this whole sector of potential employment that it's still we scratching the surface, but we can still do so much more with regards to to rising in the levels of leadership.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Being visible, like that hits me in in different ways.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, I'm working on my dissertation and I was heavy into it yesterday.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I was researching, and I'm in the lit review stage of it, which is a little painful, but but I'm really I'm so close.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, but one of the things that came up, my dissertation is around gender equity at the leadership level and how actually having a diverse leadership group, specifically women, I'm focusing on, actually leads to higher creativity, higher innovation, problem solving, outcomes, and competitive advantage.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the things I'm working on.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things is in healthcare, which is kind of my industry, is women are all over the place.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're we're like 70% of the workforce, but we're only 22% to 30% at the highest of the senior leader.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like being visible for me, that just hit for me of like we're all over the place, but we're not in the right place, or we're not in the, I don't know if that's the correct word, but like we're not in the places enough to be in the leadership seats.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I actually think uh women actually don't help other women um in certain situations.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: But like, what does being visible in manufacturing look like for you?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like there aren't a lot of women, right?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they're they're not all over the place.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: How do you increase the visibility?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, so you said a lot there.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a halfway answer.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Take any of it, yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna halfway answer your question, they're probably halfway pivot off to the left.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So go for it.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Listeners, stay with us, please.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that defining what visibility looks like is first and foremost.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So even for myself, and and this is going to be a little bit more of a vulnerable statement, right?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I am seemingly successful professionally, right?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: I also want other things in my life.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to get married and I want to have children.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to be successful and trying to figure out what that looks like to also meet some of the other desires of your heart is not an easy thing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times women check themselves out of the game before they even get started into it because they can't find, we can't find a way to do it all.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I unfortunately, there is a measure of sacrifice that is required on both sides, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: When you're trying to figure out how to piece a life together.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: But we typically try to have that life include so many other players, like a husband or a partner and children and things like that, where that same pressure is not necessarily, you know, on our male counterparts, just from history.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some systemic and systematic things that really need to be addressed to allow women to see themselves get to the upper levels of leadership without having to sacrifice their, you know, their mental health without feeling like they're they're burnt out, right?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there needs to be a space of honesty.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about making myself visible in manufacturing is one, it's doing things like this and having this conversation with you to not only talk about how I got to where I am professionally from a step-by-step perspective, but to tell you, hey, I also don't know how to make it work with regards to balancing a personal life and professional life.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still trying to figure that part out.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not right.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it is hard.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in manufacturing, it gets to be harder because it's a shift model.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So simple things as like, is there a maternity parking for women that are pregnant?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: We get women to come into spaces, but they don't stay because the work environment can't walk with them through the various phases of their lives when they do have young children or when they're caring for elder parents, right?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Certain jobs, certain careers, you know, they are more conducive to having that flexibility or perceived flexibility to do those things versus versus others.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really think it's just taking a step back and want being honest about the problems, being open and vulnerable, especially as a woman that that does lean in, right?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: To we don't have it figured out at all.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're still trying to figure it out.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's scary, and sometimes you you run the risk of making a sacrifice of one thing to pursue another.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's unfortunately what happens.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: But the third thing is being in the position to actually drive the changes that systemically are keeping women from pursuing upper leadership roles or leaning in, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think we do enough of the latter.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we do enough of really trying to fundamentally change how we do business, how we think about business, how we set up, how we walk with people through the various stages of their lives so that they can be successful both professionally and personally.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it it's bold to be vulnerable.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think again, you're demonstrating that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, for people to realize too, it's you know, I I just don't do the balance thing.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I like do the alignment thing.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just think balance is just not uh it's just not I call it Jenga.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to put my life jingle.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and sometimes it falls down and you reset, right?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, I love that.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you said a lot of good things in there, and I just want to make sure folks heard like some of the key things that you said was, you know, it it's okay to not have it figured out, and it doesn't mean you're less of a leader or less of a partner or what, you know, so from the perspective of a friend or or you know, a daughter, yeah, I just think of all the things that we have as titles in there.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't make you less, it just means you're working to figure it out.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that when we think about environments and visibility, we have not changed them.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: We say we want more women in something or we want things to be different, but we don't change the actual environment or the cultural expectations to push against whatever's been set down 20, 30 years ago, you know, or longer.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: So from that perspective, like we've got some work to do.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the way that we do it is keep being visible, keep showing up, keep coming in and keep, you know, working together.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really important thing there.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I at times have gotten just annoyed with how things have gone so slow.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I have patience is not one of my virtues.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'll like break out and try to do something on my own, and I'm like, wow, like team of one can't really get stuff done sometimes.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Team of one sometimes can, but like in those types of situations, when you're really trying to create change, you need others to kind of be with you, help you think through it, bring their talents and gifts, all of those things together.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So can you think of like a moment where in your career or life, like doing something together with others was more powerful than just taking it on yourself?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's just life in life in general, to be to be honest with you.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Any complex decision, especially when you are a leader when you and you have a team, you have to to learn how to lean on others.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: My my boss is uh is a is a really good leader, and we have a pretty strong team, and we do a lot of like the team building and team health and things like that.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that our ability as a team to deliver results relies solely on the safety that we feel with each other to not know and to be willing to wrestle topics and lay things out there so that we can get the diverse perspectives of someone being on the outside of what we do and looking in and being willing to lean into those.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would consider most of the people on my team like part of my my core advisory board, not outside of work, where we have this unpaid advisory board of people that you can lean into.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: We all get to the points of our success and can achieve new levels of success when we we leverage the perspectives of others.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, well said.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things as we kind of close out is again going back to kind of the theme of transformation, confidence, curious, seeing the visible when it's invisible.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is what would you say to a woman who has been told you shouldn't do that, you can't go in that, you can't go back to school, you shouldn't be in manufacturing, you know, you need to stay home, you need to, whatever, whatever someone's been told.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: But there's something inside them is like, man, I really want to try.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I really feel like there's something better or different, or I want to learn.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: What advice would you give them to take that first bold step, which is sometimes the hardest one to take?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Find somebody to partner with to help walk you through it would be very helpful.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is, and this is probably not necessarily gonna sound fun, we have to reevaluate your circle and discard everyone that is trying to keep you in the space that you are.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes those everyone's or or people in those spaces are people that are very close to you today, they may not necessarily need to have the same level of access to you tomorrow.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Say that again for the people in the back.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: For the people in the back, yeah, for people in the back.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's so important because it was a big learning for me when I was figuring out my business and doing those things.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: The people I thought that would be happy for me were not, and it kind of hurt a little, honestly.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the people I thought, oh man, I gotta tell my mom I quit my job without having a job.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And she's all into stability and retirement and all those things that you know, people in their late 70s are were taught.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I gotta tell my mom she was the one that was the most surprised and like, well, good, it's so much healthier for you, you know.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the people who I thought be like, high five, and we're like, oh, you're doing what?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what is it?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, it's real important to listen to what Joanna just said is like everyone that has access to you today may not have access to you tomorrow when you make that bold move.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they shouldn't, because they're not gonna support you or they don't understand you, or they have their own stuff they're dealing with that they're now trying to project onto you.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and a lot of times it's their own stuff and and it's their perspective.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: But when you want to make bold moves, you need bold people that occupy bold spaces to be part of your unpaid advisory board.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: That needs to be your circle because otherwise you always have to combat the dissension and you don't need the dissension in your small circle because this is dissension is going to be all around.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: But in your circle, the people that you rely on, right, the people that you can use to sharpen you and you sharpen them, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: You always have to reevaluate what that looks like.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that circle will always continue to change.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we talk about people, you have some people for reasons and seasons and some for a lifetime.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of reasons, people, and there are a lot of seasoned people.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to appreciate them for the reasons and the seasons that they occupy the same space with us, but we also have to be willing to let them go.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very important.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Play that back if you need to, it's real important.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge, Joanna.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a pleasure.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: All information about Joanna, her website, and connecting with her to learn more about her experience is below in the episode notes.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the lead, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important stories.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: By highlighting these stories inspired others to share the journey of others with hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing with the next bold.