Latest / Executive Alliance Podcast / E17: Leading through Legacy at the AFRO with Frances "Toni" Draper
Transcript
- Rebecca Snyder: Welcome everyone. Today we have Dr. Francis Tony Murphy Draper, who is the fourth generation leader of the Afro American newspapers, which is celebrating the hundred and thirty fourth anniversary this year. Great Frances "Toni" Draper: Right. Yep. Rebecca Snyder: Tony, it's so good to see you. I'm really glad you're here. Frances "Toni" Draper: Always good to see you, Rebecca. So thank you for the invitation. Rebecca Snyder: Well, my pleasure because we get to talk about women's leadership and you know, not only have you been the publisher of the Afro since two thousand eighteen and and active in the business prior to that, you also have served for many years as the senior pastor of Freedom Temple AME Zion. you've also had board leadership, you've served on the board of Morgan State University for over, I think, twenty-five years, and you now chair Word in Black. which for those who don't know it's a collaborative network of black owned news organizations. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, I chaired word and black. I was the inaugural chair through December twenty twenty five. So I'm not sharing I'm not sharing word and black at this time and I'm not the vice chair of N MPA right now either. And that's the National Newspaper Publishers Association. Rebecca Snyder: Well, I'm I was worried how you were gonna fit it all in, so I'm glad to know that you've passed Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, me too. Rebecca Snyder: the baton on some things. because you're also a published author and and we've talked before about your latest work, or maybe it was your the I think you have something else that's come out but prayer and p and pen, which was a collection of prayers and and essays from your grandfather Carl Murphy. So you've been doing an awful lot. And so What is occupying your attention today? What's out that maybe readers of the Afro don't quite know about? Where where are you heading? Frances "Toni" Draper: Well my my I'm f fully focused I shouldn't sp use the word ful fully. I don't know if I'm ever f fully focused, but I'm Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: f focused primarily on the Afro. So I stepped Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: back from Word in Black, I stepped back from the National Newspaper Publishers Association leadership to focus more on what's happening right here with the with the Afro. It is a it's a challenging time to be in media for for a lot of reasons and Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: So I'm full I'm fully focused on the Afro and yes, you're right. we do have another book coming out, but this book I co authored with my husband. It's it comes out January fifth, twenty twenty seven and it's called Fifty Tips for Fifty Years of W Marital Bliss, I think it says. And then that's crossed out and it says Grace. So that'll Rebecca Snyder: Well, and what an accomplishment. Fifty years. I remember when you were going on social media and and putting some of your tips out there. And so that is amazing. Frances "Toni" Draper: That's what this is, the fifty tips. In in one place. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. But the Afro has such a long history. So I think it's one of America's oldest black owned newspapers, but it's also I think it's the oldest continuously operating black media publication in the country. I'm again. Frances "Toni" Draper: By the same f by the same family. So you have to add all of that into that doesn't Rebecca Snyder: Which is not shabby. I mean and and through the through line of that I think is that you have had such generations of strong women leaders. So tell me a little bit about how the Afro came about and why it came about. Frances "Toni" Draper: Okay, so the AFA was founded in eighteen ninety two. the person who gets the credit for the founding is my great grandfather, John Henry Murphy Sr. He was fifty-two years old. He and his wife Martha had ten children. He had been enslaved, served in the Civil War as a sergeant on the Union side here in Maryland, and once the war was over, he received his freedom. That was the reward, I guess, for for fighting on the Union side. But the unique thing about this origin story to me anyway, besides the fact that he was fifty 52 and 10 children, and supposedly less than 10 per 2% rather of the black population could read, is that he purchased the name Afro was already in existence. He purchased the name and the printing press because he had been the printer for another public. It wasn't really a publication, I don't think. purchased that at a at an auction with two hundred dollars from his wife. So she was the venture capitalist. She was the in investor. So when we go back to the origin story, a strong woman was right there at the beginning. She never worked in the paper. The two of them had this is the third time I said it ten children. Five five boys, five girls, and the boys all worked and they were worked in the public in the family enterprise and had to pay their sisters the same thing. the family history shows that one sister served on the board of of the family business. another sister there's a building name for her at Coppen. She was a her name was I'm part of her name's like her name was Frances. So she Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: she was a professor at at at Coppin and so there were five of them altogether of of the women and all of the men went to work at the family business. And then the wars came. So when the wars Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: came the men went to war and I'm talking about World War Two. My great grandfather died in nineteen twenty two. The men Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: went to war and the women in the family went to work at the family business. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. So going back to to the founding, put that in context. Two hundred dollars, you know, in today's money, you're like, Okay, but that's a lot of money for Frances "Toni" Draper: That's a lot of. Rebecca Snyder: for formerly enslaved people, for anyone really coming out of a war. Where did that come from and and how did that work? Frances "Toni" Draper: Here's we think happened. so her father, Innoch Howard, we believe was the son of the slave owner and a favorite of his father's. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: and went to market. They had a very, very large farm which is now called Freeman's Park. The state of Maryland just renamed it. The family burial ground on the Howard side, that was what Martha's maiden name was. And it and Rebecca Snyder: Where in where in Maryland is this? Frances "Toni" Draper: it's in it's in Montgomery County. Rebecca Snyder: Okay. Frances "Toni" Draper: in Montgomery County. So if if anybody looks up Freedman's Park, that's the name now. I think it was Patapsico Valley or something like that. But it was just renamed in the spring of of twenty twenty six. And he had brothers and sisters as well. When his father died, he actually left the father left that land, to his son And probably two a couple of brothers and I don't know whether Martha got some too. But anyway, when Enoch got the land, he built a church, a school, a couple of houses on there. It's a large piece of I think seven, eight hundred acres. It's a big, big piece of land. She had a part of that. She sold her part to I don't know, to one of her brothers, I understand, for this money. And I don't know whether it was all two hundred dollars or whether it was more. That's how she re s that's how she got the money. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and so that says to me just what a strong belief your great great grandmother had in the power of black owned media and and so what I mean, what does it mean to found the Afro in that time? I mean, it it just black culture has always been, you know, at the point of erasure. And so what did it what did it mean to your family to have that newspaper start? Frances "Toni" Draper: So it was my great grandmother, but you know what? for us growing up it just meant a lot of work. It Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: because it meant that up. So we keep going through the generation. So we talked about the founders, right? That's one generation, that's my great grandparents. Then they had ten children. My grandfather was the second youngest, and so he was a Howard professor having done his undergraduate at Howard and his graduate degree at Harvard. And so and a foreign language a German professor, so he did some studying at in Germany as well, but he was tapped by his brothers when his father died. To come and run the family newspaper, if you will, that he used to help his dad out on the weekends with. Okay. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: So and he was blessed, much to his, I don't know whether it was his joy or disappointment, with five girls. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: and he was determined that those girls were going to not only get an education, but as many as he could convince would go into journalism. So four of his five daughters went to Big Ten schools at the expense of the state of Maryland because the state of Maryland had this policy, I don't know if it was a law, that said that you couldn't go to to the University of Maryland because they wouldn't admit black students. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: You had to go to Morgan and if Morgan didn't offer the degree that you were pursuing, the state would pay for you to go out of town. So the state paid for my mother to go to the University of Wisconsin and two of her sisters and one to the University of Indiana. So journalism was in their blood. My mother hated Wisconsin at first because the people had never seen black some of them had never seen black people and they Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: wanted to touch her skin, they wanted to touch her hair, they wanted to ask her a whole lot Rebecca Snyder: No. Frances "Toni" Draper: of questions. And she called my grandfather. There's an oral history now that Fern Ingersoll of the National Press Club did on her. There's an oral history where she said she didn't like Wisconsin. She said Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: it was cold. all of them you know they were they weren't friendly and she called my grandfather and said, you know, I I don't think I can do this. He said, you're gonna do this. You know your sisters are Rebecca Snyder: Well I Frances "Toni" Draper: there and the state of Maryland is paying, so yes. And then Rebecca Snyder: So you're gonna get off. Frances "Toni" Draper: you're gonna go and the fifth daughter started at Howard, but she ended up going into the service and she's part of the six triple eight. Rebecca Snyder: Right, I remember you saying that when when the movie came out. So lots of amazing female role models there. And and you've talked a lot about how you know it wasn't an option to work it at the newspaper. You were just there doing everything. And and i I have the sense that, you know, your family was just we're pouring in, we're gonna do it. Failure's not an option. just like your mom your your grandmother staying in Wisconsin. Non negotiables. Frances "Toni" Draper: Right. They were non negotiables. They're non negotiable. Rebecca Snyder: No matter who's touching you or how uncomfortable you feel, you're gonna just grit grit and move on. Frances "Toni" Draper: Right. Right. Well, yeah, your non negotiables are my grandfather had sixteen grandchildren. You you are you're going to college, that's a non negotiable. So you know, you couldn't say, Well, I think I'll pursue something that doesn't require college. He didn't care. You were going to college. non-negotiables. When you were young, you were gonna be exposed to as many things culturally as he he didn't care that you didn't want to play the piano. You were gonna go to Peabody, you were gonna take the lessons, you were gonna take the dance lessons, you were gonna go to the Baltimore Museum of Art every single Friday. And take a class or take a tour, you were gonna do those things. They were non-negotiables, and in the summers and holidays, you were gonna work at the family paper because if you could walk, you could write. And if you couldn't write, he'd find something else for you to do, which also included reading a whole lot of things. So you were gonna do those, you were gonna go to his house for holidays and special occasions, and you're gonna sit there. You didn't want to sit too close to him because if you put your elbow on the table you got the back of the you know, the handle of the knife. So you didn't want to sit too close to him. Right, Rebecca Snyder: That is strenuous home training. my gosh. Frances "Toni" Draper: and and you then were in that house if your parents came and he had other special guests because people like Robert Kennedy came there and Martin Luther King came. So We were like, hello, how are you? Good to meet you and disappear. But he expected us either before they came or after they came to know who they were and why they were there possibly. So we're little kids and you know, he's talking policy and current events and things that you know that the average child I don't know if they had to go through all of that, but it was it was it was fun. Rebecca Snyder: Like when you look back, I feel like that's such a a a rich history and maybe you're grateful for it now, but when you were in it, how did that feel? Frances "Toni" Draper: Well when we were in it we were feeling like, okay, these non negotiable, some of these are gonna have to be negotiable going further, right? So most of us in my generation and remember they were ten kids, that's like the fifth time I've said that. So each each part of the family had different expectations but my grandfather, because he was the editor, the publisher, the person in charge, right? He had an expectation. So in our generation, the fourth generation, we said, Okay, we we're gonna do most of what he's requesting and our parents were supportive. We had wonderful childhoods. We did a lot of other things too. I don't wanna make it sound like It was it was that that confining. We did a lot of other things. But we decided that yes, we'll do the college thing, but we're not doing journalism carte blanche. So only my Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: sister my mother kept saying somebody she wanted one of us, I have two siblings, to go to the University of Wisconsin. Well, my sister was the youngest. And my brother and I would say to her all the time when she was like four or five years old, guess where you going to college Okay. Rebecca Snyder: See, that's the benefit of having the younger sibling. You'd be like, That's what you're doing. Okay. It fraternalism. Frances "Toni" Draper: And that's what she did. And Mert and and for journalism and then she went to a master's program in Michigan, met the love of her life. He was in a medical on you know, studying to be a physician under a government plan that said, when you finish you you practice where we send you, right? And they sent Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: to Mississippi and that's where they've been ever since. She's not done any any anyway. Rebecca Snyder: Well well and your family is kind of spread out, but I guess at at that point, you know, they were maybe more localized to Baltimore or or were they always spread out? Frances "Toni" Draper: They were well, one daughter, one of the five daughters, so Carl and Vanstein Murphy had five daughters, as I've said, between Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: nineteen eighteen and nineteen twenty two they had five. So there's a set of twins there. Rebecca Snyder: wow. Frances "Toni" Draper: So one of the twins, was not in the news business at all. She Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: and her husband raised their family in Buffalo, New York. Rebecca Snyder: Mm, okay. Frances "Toni" Draper: That's an interesting story. Her husband came here to play football for I wanna say I'm gonna get mixed up. It's either the University of Baltimore, forgive me, Uncle Leland, or Bal Buff State. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: He's on the team but couldn't find accommodations. No in the hotel. Rebecca Snyder: So what did he do? Frances "Toni" Draper: So he ended up my grandfather took up the cars and found him housing. But in doing Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: so he had a chance to meet Carl Murphy's daughters and and immediately looked at them, the the ones that were not already married and decided this one's, you know, for him. So after college Rebecca Snyder: Ha ha. Frances "Toni" Draper: they moved back to Buffalo. Rebecca Snyder: That's funny. I love that. So you it sounded like you were trying to get your your youngest sibling to take on the journalism mantle. How did you wind up at the Afro? Frances "Toni" Draper: So very it's a very interesting way that I wound up there. My so I was just I was not a journalism major. My Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: college degree undergraduate is in Spanish and French education. Rebecca Snyder: Wow, I did not realize Okay. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, I taught middle school and Baltimore City Public Schools for for a little while. However, I always worked at the Afro summers and holidays. because that was my summer gig, you know, that's what I did. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: And so I started out on the crime beat. I didn't even have a car I had to take the bus to go and cover different stories. I always like to write. So that was my and my mother was at one time chairman of the board. So that was my summer and you know, vacation, the holidays, you know, Christmas vacation or whatever. That's that's what I did. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: When my mother was chairman of the board, we had a New Jersey office and they were thinking about closing. I was in the school system and I asked about an analysis. Had it had there been a business analysis and she said, Well no, and so I made a presentation to the board to go there for a year and take a look and see what was going on. The teachers were on strike. Rebecca Snyder: so you had some time. Okay. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, so I had some times. So they weren't on strike as long as I was gone, but let's say they went on strike in the spring and a couple of weeks Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: later we went to New Jersey to take a look at that. So that I got more into it beyond my summer and holiday you know, vacation kind of work at that point. Rebecca Snyder: Did you ever visualize yourself or imagine yourself leading the the publication? Because at that point also there were multiple not just New Jersey, but you had papers in a lot of different Frances "Toni" Draper: Mm-hmm. Thirteen diff thirteen different editions. We had one where New Jersey, Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore and Virginia, Richmond as physical, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: physical officers. The answer to your question is absolutely not. I you know, my my mom had the vision to involve a young the younger generation on what was called an an advisory board. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: So I would do that and then my mom would come home and ask me all kinds of questions when she was in charge. This is even before Rebecca Snyder: Like what kind of questions? Frances "Toni" Draper: I know somebody an employee did X today. What would you do? I'm like seventeen, I'm like, you know, I got come Rebecca Snyder: Ha ha ha. Frances "Toni" Draper: on you know, I would come up with something and then she would do it. More often than not. And I had a lot of responsibility. Rebecca Snyder: so I love that she well i so there's some times where, you know, you might ask someone just as a sounding board to find out what you think, but I love that she was like, Yes, Tony, I'm taking that advice and implementing right away. Like, how did that make you feel when Frances "Toni" Draper: I don't know. First it it made you made me feel a little scary because some of the things they were just top of mind. But what my mother did with me as the oldest, and she was a single mom by that point when I was in high school. And I had these had two younger siblings and she was at the afro and that's a very strenuous, you know, you don't even have any regular hours. She did Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: things like Here's the checkbook, 'cause you know, people had checkbooks, some people still have checkbooks, but she here's a checkbook, here are the bills, here's when I get paid, right? Figure it out. I'm sixteen. Fifteen, Rebecca Snyder: Wow. Frances "Toni" Draper: sixteen. I said, What do mean figure it out? She says, No, you're you you can do this. We've got this to pay, this to pay, this to pay. So I would say sometimes, well mom, what if there's more things to pay than money to pay? She said, figure it out. Well she put my name on the checking account. Well she kept on her checking account to the day she died. She kept put my name on the checking account and said, you know, I'm at the afro a lot. you're the oldest. My brother's twenty one months younger, my sister was seven years younger than I. Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Frances "Toni" Draper: If you could just help with that budgeting and figuring out those things that would be great. Now she did at first give me some guidance, you know, like, okay, Rebecca Snyder: Sure. Frances "Toni" Draper: you know, you can't you can't budget this much for food. We're not you know, you it has to be within reason. But w after that, you know, I knew when to pay the mortgage and when to pay the utilities and my friends would say, You're doing what? I mean, I was in high school. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. So, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of legacy that that is being I I'm curious because that's a lot of responsibility to put on on someone, but your family is also a like let's throw everything in and do it together kind of family. So did you ever feel like that was too much responsibility or did you have like did you ever feel like you were gonna break under the weight of that legacy or responsibility? Frances "Toni" Draper: No, because w there was balance. So my Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: mom never did it to the exclusion of things that we wanted to do. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: So for me it wasn't a burden and because it wasn't anything else that I didn't get to do, right? So I was a Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: I was a in high school I played on s on a high school softball team. So you know, I still got to I had to play ball, you know. I was a good student, so schoolwork wasn't a burden. I was a ten week of ten books a week reader. So I would walk to the library. Rebecca Snyder: What were you reading most when you were in high school? Frances "Toni" Draper: well when I was well, I don't remember high school reading unfortunately as much as I do elementary school. So in elementary Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: school I was reading Beverly Cleary and whatever, you know. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: I would j they just knew me at the library. I would just walk down and it was, you know, ten I think was the maximum and I walk to the library which was mm, six, eight blocks away and get my books and come back and read them as well. So I I was a s more of a outdoor ball player kid than a And there's nothing wrong with this. My sister was more of the dolls and those things. I wasn't interested in those things. I was interested Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: in, you know, even though I was the last to get selected every time for the boys' teams outside in the neighbour neighborhood, next to the last, 'cause there was a boy that got always got picked after me. I Rebecca Snyder: What did you have that he didn't have? Frances "Toni" Draper: I don't know, I th I could play better than he could and a whole lot of other boys, but it was just a it was just a Rebecca Snyder: What? Frances "Toni" Draper: thing, you know, the way they did it. Rebecca Snyder: That's so funny. I love that. so I I wanted to when we when we think about the Afro and and it's a it's a huge responsibility and privilege to shepherd a legacy organization through. and you know, you know a lot about your family's history and there's a lot of traditions in in your family, but institutions don't survive if they stay the same and you're like smack dab in the middle of like a transformational time for news media. So how do you decide sort of what's what's sacred, like what what traditions you're keeping and and how do you how do you decide what needs to evolve? Frances "Toni" Draper: First you can't decide in a vacuum. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: You have to have and there are a lot of people that fall into this category for me. People that are smarter than you are. And people who are trying things that you've never thought about. And you have to let go of some things. You just can't do everything. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: We're blessed that we have family, an extended family, that have skill sets that far exceed anything I ever thought that I could do. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: I'm grateful for that and I listen to what they have to say 'cause I just view myself as a steward. I don't know everything. And so when it people ask me all the time, you didn't ask this directly, said, Well, we're in a technological age. If you want to be honest about it, we've always been in a technological age. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: I mean always. When I first went to Afro people were using okay, I'm a date myself, royal typewriters. Right? And then they went from those typewriters where when you were doing stories and you had to use a carbon, if you made a mistake, you had to get the white out. Right? Rebecca Snyder: Right? Frances "Toni" Draper: And then they had the I don't know, the selectrics or something that was a little more automated, right? And they went from that to right, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Little faster, yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: then then you had the big computer things and then you had, you know, the small computers and so n so now we have certainly AI and other tools, but that's what they are, they're tools. Because the typewriter was Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: revolutionary at one time for somebody. Rebecca Snyder: You're right. And and it's all like I remember when when the industry changed from like paste up to, you know, you could just electronically send to your your plates Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah. Correct. Rebecca Snyder: and so forth. So what is what's the constant then? you know, so technology's always changing in your mind, but what are you what are you keeping? Like what what do you hope always stays with the afro? Frances "Toni" Draper: think is the trusted mission. The constant Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: is being the ears and voice and eyes of community through their eyes. Because if you're not listening to community then you can also be producing content in a vacuum. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: So I think the constant is being true to mission. And and form and then I think the variable is the platform. So we're Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: in a digital first short form video and I think the other variable is or maybe this is a constant. every generation has multiple layers. So e Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: so you can't just the word I'm looking for. You can't put everybody in a box just because they have a label of millennial or Gen X or Alpha Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: Alpha Gen or whatever the next one down is, Generation Y and millennials and boomers and there's still a few people I probably left out one, Generation Rebecca Snyder: Always the generation X. We f we forget those all the time. Frances "Toni" Draper: X, right, X, J Generation Sorry about that Gen X. And then you have the still some people on this in the silent generation. We're not monoliths. None of us are. But to be open to different perspectives, I think is important. You can't be all things to all people. But there are certain basic things that I think people are interested in and they want to hear it from somebody they trust. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So and and this I think is a hallmark of your leadership style. Like you're you're very open to to listening to others. You're you're you want to get a lot of different voices in and you see people as individuals. When you came in in twenty eighteen, you know, what what brought you back? Like why did why did you take on the the publisher role at the Afro in twenty eighteen and what what did you f What was your act of leadership that kind of got you started? Frances "Toni" Draper: Well, I came back at a request of family. I had been Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: there from like eighty eight to ninety nine when I left to pursue a fulltime ministry and so f family w wanted a change in in leadership, we we respect the leadership that was there because we really are building on that person's legacy. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: We're building on that person's legacy. I don't you know, when people s talk about leadership changes, I think sometimes we forget that the persons before us, whether they're immediate immediately before us or whether they're fifty years before us, they did things that we're still building on. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: You know, and sometimes we dismiss it Thinking that we're gonna bring in everything brand new because we know better. No, I came in building on a legacy that was there. And it also meant that because I had not been in the business for 20 years, I've been doing other things because most of our family who's in the business didn't do other things and come back to the business. They just grew up in the business, and there's a difference. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: There's a big, big difference from coming from the outside back in as to have always been on the inside. So I well well Rebecca Snyder: So what did that difference look like for you? Like how did that manifest for you? Frances "Toni" Draper: it manifests for me and you I it gave me a chance to put my MBA to work. Rebecca Snyder: Well, great. All right. Frances "Toni" Draper: That's that's that that's for su so how it manifests for me, as I think I've said a couple of times, yes, I like to read. Yes, I like to write. I not feel that I'm a fairly good writer. But what I brought to the company was a different lens, right? And when I did my MBA, I went through a women in leadership program. There was a women in leadership program at the University of Baltimore for liberal arts majors who had a business interest. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: So in thirteen months we were able to take all of the undergraduate classes that you would have taken if you were a business major in an undergrad school. Where we were all older women and it was just for women. And we only went on the weekends. We went Friday night from like five to ten PM and all day Saturday. And that's right. Rebecca Snyder: That's an intensive program. Frances "Toni" Draper: It was intense and they did everything for us, brought meals to us, you know, we didn't have to order books, everything was there. And from that program, from the women in leadership program, I then pursued an MBA. Right there at the group of Baltimore. And I was able to Rebecca Snyder: Okay. And so w what were you hoping I'm sorry. What what were you hoping to get out of the MBA? I know you had done the business analysis in New Jersey, you had done your mom's budgeting, family budgeting, so you have some math. Frances "Toni" Draper: And I've been a s and I've been a and I've been a stockbroker at Merrillynch, Pierce, Finner and Smith. Rebecca Snyder: You can change multitudes, Tony, my goodness. I did not realise that. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, the first African American woman they hired back way and that's a funny story after we did our year in Rebecca Snyder: I want to hear it. Tell me. Frances "Toni" Draper: well after we did our year in Jersey, and we made the report back to the company where they had to decide, you know, we recommended keeping the office open at at some level, right? But we didn't Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: I never went to New Jersey with the idea that I was gonna stay there. But I did come back and resign from teaching and then it's like now what? So, we had our daughter while well, We conceived our daughter while in New Jersey. She was born in in Baltimore. But after she Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: was born, it was like, Okay, well now what are you gonna do? You're not going back to teaching, right? What Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: are you gonna do? And this is this is pre MBA. So Merrill Lynch had an ad, like an open house. I didn't even know it was really a recruitment thing. You know, we just went out of curiosity. And my husband and I both went and then we realized what it was and he it was like, You go do the interview, no, you go do the interview, you so I ended Rebecca Snyder: Ha ha. Frances "Toni" Draper: up ended up doing the interview and and being hired. And I you know, was already pretty much interested not pretty much, I was already interested in business because of the family Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: business, but I didn't have any formal business training other than what I learned about balancing the checkbook and paying bills with my mother. Rebecca Snyder: So how did you jump in? I mean, I feel like you're the first first black woman to be hired there. you didn't have a business background. What was that like? Frances "Toni" Draper: I was also one of seven that passed that securities exam on the first on the first try. It was hard. And 'cause we couldn't we couldn't Rebecca Snyder: Look at you I yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: use a calculator. Rebecca Snyder: wow. Frances "Toni" Draper: And you know, you didn't have we couldn't use we had to do all of those calculations for a seven hour test by hand. Rebecca Snyder: my goodness. Frances "Toni" Draper: In a you know, you went to New York, you did some training and then, you know, you already had some tr and then you took this securities exam. So what was it like? First of all I was grateful that I passed the exam the first time. Rebecca Snyder: I would be too Frances "Toni" Draper: I was already interested in business and finance and how money moved. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: So what it was like, it's really, you know, it i you're an account executive or you're a stockbroker, but you really are a relationship manager. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: You have to know a lot about the markets, but you have to know more about how to talk to people, how to hear their needs, right? And then how to find products that meet those needs. And I was good at listening to people. Rebecca Snyder: When you have that business knowledge and you're applying it to you come back to the Afro and y you're in a situation where most people have spent their entire careers at the Afro and you're coming in with all this different type of experience. Frances "Toni" Draper: All this different type of experien I mean all this different and it gets it gets even more different as we go along. I I tend to pursue a passion. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: But I also tend to connect the dots. Rebecca Snyder: Well and I like how you you you know, relationship seems to be a a huge through line for you as well. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, relation relationship, my doctorates in leadership. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: relationships and leadership and stewardship, all the ships are things that that I care about. And when I relationships in business, you know, take many different forms. So I'm passionate about taking care of of co-workers, people that help you to meet your mission as best you can. You know, you you have some constraints around that and you can't always do everything that you want to do. I'm passionate about and my team knows, about how you interact with people. Yeah, you have hierarchy in every company, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: but how I interact with you should not be based on the hierarchy. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: It's based on the fact that you are a human being, I am a human being and we can have a person to person conversation. Let me give an example. When I went back to the Afro in twenty eighteen, there was a little commo I hadn't even been there, I think it was a day or two. A little commotion where an employee team member, I'll include employees now, was raising their voice at another person and and I just, you know, I didn't been there like two days, pulled them into the office and said, that's not how we're gonna talk to people. We're just we're Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: just we're just not going to do that. That's not the culture. So I guess it's culture that I'm really concerned about. That's that's not the culture. You can disagree without being disagreeable. And regardless of the Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: fact whether you are the supervisor or not, there's a way to talk with people. There's a way to correct people, there's a way to do things that does not degrade people. So I have some non Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So that Frances "Toni" Draper: negotiables on that. Rebecca Snyder: Well and and I'm curious because is that a leadership style that's always been part of you or did you sort of learn that along the way? You have a doctorate in leadership, you have decades of pastoral work behind you. Like how did that that leadership style evolve? Frances "Toni" Draper: Well, they evolved over time, but my mantra is you can be assertive without being aggressive. Because sometimes Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. How do you tow that line? Frances "Toni" Draper: it's ver it's a very thin line because it c it could be misinterpreted as a weakness. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: Especially for or the opposite, the aggressive, angry woman, right? Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: So you can get both ends. So here's my my take for myself. First of all, be well informed. Secondly, if you're in a group, I don't care if it's a group of women, men, mixed group, say something when something has to be said. Don't say something just to be saying it. Sometimes you know, I just observe there are people who have something to say about everything and what ha ends up happening is it's either discounted or they are Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: perceived as a bully or as a person that just has to talk all the time. I don't have to talk all the time. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: I try to listen well. I try to formulate questions, if I have them, but I listen for context and content and I d I try not to be frivolous in what I'm asking just to get a mic. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. You know, that feels it just strikes me that like that's a real connection to seeing people as individuals and wanting and being curious about them. That idea of listening rather than inserting yourself into you know, into the conversation just for you know just because. Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: Just just just because. Just because. Because I I I wanna be heard, but I don't you know, I don't wanna be the person that here she goes again, she's always has something to say, or you know, always has something negative to say or or d you know. And I may not always it I may have a question and I weigh whether or not, hey, is this the right time? Is this the right question? And then sometimes I will write a question down or just jot a couple notes down. See if it's been a if it if it gets answered along the way. And then on most meetings there's still an opportunity to ask your question. You don't have to stop the person right that minute. Rebecca Snyder: So you know, it it the idea of being able to then say, on reflection, can we go back to this, like having that confidence to be able to let a moment like not have to push a moment but do you ever feel like you've been sort of left behind or swept aside with that style? Frances "Toni" Draper: Not really, because I haven't said anything. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: For anybody to p but I haven't missed anything either. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. And I do I I love that you're allowing everyone to get their questions answered because oftentimes those questions do get answered in the i if you if you wait a little bit. And I'm I'm curious because you have such a strong spiritual center and that to me is a very sort of spiritual way of looking at like the answers will be revealed. There's continuous revelation. Do you make any of the any connections between your leadership style and your and your faith? You've been a minister f or a pastor for a very long time. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yeah, well I'm one person. So I don't compartmentalize that way. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: And some people are good at compartmentalizing. Their faith is over here, their business is over there, their family's over here, you know, their their interests. I'm I'm I'm this hopefully I'm the same when you encounter me, whether it's in a business meeting or it's someplace else. And so there's a scripture that says, let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father who's in heaven. So I I'm I view myself as a representative Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: and not perfect because none of us is perfect, but I'm very conscious of am I the same way on Monday that I was on Sunday? Or you know, am I this way in church? And then when I get to a business situation on Monday, I'm a completely different person. I I don't think that speaks well for my Christian witness and I don't think it fit speaks well for my overall well being. It's too difficult for me. But peop some people do it well. They do, they they Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: they do it well. I don't do it well. Rebecca Snyder: Well and you are one person, but that also feels like it takes some discernment to be like maybe distanced enough from being self aware or distanced enough from your actions to kind of think like, How am I on Sunday? How am I on Monday? How am I on Tuesday? Do you is that just innate for you or do you set aside time to kind of check in with yourself in that way? Frances "Toni" Draper: Well, I I set aside time, my husband and I set aside aside time to check in with God every morning. Right. So we we we pray together, we do scripture reading together, we do that. We set aside that time every morning. He takes the lead on that. So it centers my day. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: Now, are there times that I forget that I was centered that morning? They're always they're always Rebecca Snyder: When life actually intrudes. Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: Yes, yeah yeah, there listen, there are always times. But that helps to keep grounded, a little bit better. And that's something I grew into. It wasn't something that automatically happens, right? But my grandfather Carl was a f a man of faith. The book I wrote, Prayer and Pen was about his prayers. He wrote prayers for everything. So he was a man of faith. He instilled the daily prayer habit in us, right? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: family church and all of that. So, you know, we had a really good role model growing up for that. And it wasn't overly strict and structured and couldn't speak and you had to do where this and where it wasn't that. We were Episcopalians and you know it definitely wasn't that. But so it's something I grew up in. And in our family there are one, two, three, four, five of his sixteen grandchildren were in ministry. Or are were Rebecca Snyder: S Frances "Toni" Draper: or are in ministry. Rebecca Snyder: so what drew you to ministry? Frances "Toni" Draper: It was definitely a calling 'cause it wasn't in my plan. I d I did Yeah yeah. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. I mean you've done so many things. That that's Frances "Toni" Draper: I d it was it was definitely a calling. But I was always, I think, a person inclined to minister, if you will. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: in one way or the other, not in a formal way. you know, not to sound too mm too s too overly spiritual. I mean it's it's God that draws you into certain things. And it manifests different ways. 'Cause you could be in ministry and it doesn't always have to be a formal title. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: There are people in ministry, they're what I call marketplace prophets, right? They they have a strong, strong faith. They're not gonna be in the pulpit in a church because everybody's created differently and people have different gifts. always this has this has something to do with ministry but ministry is a calling. Even when I was in I'm dating myself as what was called junior high school then, I would sign up for declamation contests and speaking contests and I was relatively shocked. Rebecca Snyder: Prost! Frances "Toni" Draper: Don't ask. I don't know what taught me to get up on stages and platforms and memorize speeches and and compete from I did it, you know, for junior achievement. I did it in junior high school. when I got to high school I played ball rat and I didn't do all the all of those kind of speaking things as much. Rebecca Snyder: So when you are when we think about ministry and sort of how you're showing up in the world every day, when you walk into that Afro Newsroom every day, what what responsibility do you feel like you're taking? Like are you do you feel like you're taking that that joy of ministry in? Are you taking your legacy? What is it? Frances "Toni" Draper: I'm hoping I'm taking my whole self in. And in this day and age we're not really walking into the newsroom as much as we're Rebecca Snyder: That's true. Frances "Toni" Draper: you know, as much as we're emailing and zooming and, you know, it's a very, very different environment than it was when I grew up when you actually walked into a newsroom and all the reporters are sitting around this horseshoe. coming back from the MS their assignments and following their stories and all of that. It's a whole different way that people do it now. I pretty Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: much though yield to the editor or Rebecca Snyder: Okay. Frances "Toni" Draper: judgment around what they cover. I weigh in. She'll ask me for some things. I write editorials fairly frequently, things like that. But I trust her judgment and her team. That can't be all things to all people. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Frances "Toni" Draper: There are certain things that we're concerned about and we want to follow. But she pretty much knows what those are and and Rebecca Snyder: Right. Now that makes sense. And then I just I wanted to end with your legacy. You've done so many different things. you've had a lot of of impact in a variety of fields, but what do you want your legacy to be? Frances "Toni" Draper: Well, I want my legacy to first of all be that I honored God in my in everything that I've done as much as I could. Understanding that I am imperfect, but that my motive, my my mindset was there. I want that to be at the top. And the subset of that relates to how we took care of the business. how we took of the people of the business, right? And how we interface and interacted with the community in a way that is not about us. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Frances "Toni" Draper: Journalism as a industry has always been in my mind, I don't care what the outlet you're with, It really is not about the journalists, even though we get very, very insular. You know, we we think it's about us, but it's really not it's really not about us. If there weren't any viewers or any readers or any listeners, there would be no need. We wouldn't have it. So it's it's not about Rebecca Snyder: You wouldn't have it. Right. Frances "Toni" Draper: us, right? but it is about messaging or being a vehicle for for for carrying messages for communities and it's about being a vehicle for those who are trying to reach our communities. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: It's a business, so it's also about the appetizers. so I would want what what people tend to say and I hope that continues in the legacy is that that I am I don't wanna use the word tough because I'm not tough like that. But firm but fair. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: And and I know already because some of you have told me it's like, did she just reprimand me or what was that? You know? Because I'm not a screamer. I'm not gonna scream at you, I'm not gonna call you other than the name that you were given. I'm not going to intentionally insult you, even though I'm not res not always responsible for how people perceive things. That's not my intention. My intention is not to do that. That's not and I so I hope people will re will recall remember that that I can be as much of a team leader as I can be a team player. I don't have to always be in charge. So I know Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: how to I hope that part of the legacy would be here, she knows how to support people, but she also knows how to be the person that needs support. can be the chair of Gordon Black, which I'm not any longer, or the first vice chair of National News Labor Public Association, and that I'm intentional about inclusion. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: And I know that there are smarter people than I am. There are people that have much more knowledge and we need each other to get through this. When Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: I say get through this, get through the times that we're in, politically, economically and socially. and it's not while we are the Afro and we cover issues and we cover stories from our community's perspective, my hope is that Anybody who reads it, regardless of their race or their background, can still relate to an Afro story and that it helps their understanding. It's too much misunderstanding about who we are, when I say who we are in general as people. So I'm a Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Frances "Toni" Draper: wide still a wide reader because I want to know what other people are thinking of this book. Rebecca Snyder: Right. And i I think it's it's so special that you recognize that your legacy is gonna it's it's not only your legacy. You want it to live on. And you're still meeting people right where they are and knowing them individually. and that definitely comes through in the afro and and in your work. and it's it's been such a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. Frances "Toni" Draper: You're welcome. Thank you for the invitation.