Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode 20: Which is Healthier: Organic Processed Food OR Conventional Produce?

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Episode 20: Which is Healthier: Organic Processed Food OR Conventional Produce? · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Even though we think of these processed foods as being devoid of nutrients, on what and and they are and to a large extent, they are, right?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not promoting people eat a bunch of processed foods, but at the same token, they're actually breaking down the process, is breaking down a lot of the uh or good portion of these pesticides that are, as you know, are so damaging to our health.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough with my co-host Joel Salatin.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Joel.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Cena.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I want to get into a study that was just published, but that was, I find it fascinating.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: But first, I want to ask you a question.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Which do you think is healthier?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Organic processed food or conventional whole foods, such as conventional fruits and vegetables?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're asking me?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the listeners, you know, let's all think about it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which one do you actually think is healthier?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is go ahead.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take a pause here to actually consider this.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is conventional whole foods, you know, whole vegetables, whatever, versus organic processed.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and of course, Cena, you know, we we've gone all around and around and around about organic.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and and so um, so let's just, you know, maybe maybe we could say uh not organic, but just it integrity, authentic uh uh what ecology food, uh, just so we don't so we we broaden this to not just certified organic government program uh food exactly.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um I I would say I would say that I would take I would certainly take food that we're processing here and selling as processed food over conventional whole food any time of day, you know, uh our our snack sticks, our uh uh you know uh chicken broth, um, you know, things that we our hot dogs, uh things, things that we uh do as processing, I would take, I would eat our hot dog before a conventional T-bone steak, uh actually.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that that's I think I think that's what you're talking about.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what about so if you think about in the grocery store, most people are going in there and about, depending on the statistic, anywhere between 60 and 90 percent of the um typical Americans' diet comes from processed foods.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're going into the grocery store and they're picking, for instance, like organic chips or an organic cereal, that compared to if they went to the producile and they picked up a conventional, let's say, strawberry, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Containers of strawberry.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So which one of the, in that kind of example, which one would you think would be healthier?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: The organic processed food, like the organic chip or cereal, or the conventional container of strawberries?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, that's a hard one because strawberries compared to grains, uh, I don't know.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I guess, I guess um uh, you know, I I think I think you're you're gonna say you're gonna the study is gonna find the amount of uh residues in conventional strawberries outweighs whatever uh organic processing uh there is.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it's hard to compare chick cereal to strawberries.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if we had let's say that we had organic uh organic uh uh strawberry puree, um uh that would be a processed product, organic strawberry puree versus conventional whole strawberries.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I take the organic strawberry puree over the conventional whole strawberry.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would too.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're in line.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I part of this, the reason I'm asking these questions, the reason I'm trying to get people to engage in this kind of thought process, is because it is generally accepted in this health wellness space that that people should eat, or people are encouraged to eat whole foods, right?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they're conventional.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I hear this over and over again, where people would say, oh, you know, it's too expensive to buy, for instance, um, produce that was that was grown using organic practices.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I keep saying organic as a simplified term, but you know what I mean.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be certified organic, but just produce that was grown without the pesticides, herbicides, and whatnot.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So people will say it's too expensive.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the across the board, the recommendation I hear from leaders in this field is go ahead and consume that conventional produce because it's healthier for you than processed foods, right?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: We hear this over and over.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And my argument has been well, that's not always the case, right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: That is not always true.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And now I want to show that um this study just came out in October of this year.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is a peer-reviewed scientific publication, um, and I'll link it in the description box.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what they did was they took individuals who were consuming a Western diet, right?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody was consuming a Western diet, and then they changed their diet for two weeks.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody went on a Mediterranean diet, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is what is um people think of as this healthy diet, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of vegetables, um, you know, vegetables and fruits and um fish and healthy fats.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Mediterranean diet.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So all the groups went from a Western diet to a Mediterranean diet.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: One group ate only organic foods, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: They followed the Mediterranean diet, but they only ate organic foods.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: The second group, they also followed the Mediterranean diet, but they only ate conventional foods.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so we did this for two weeks.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is what the study showed.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: When the people switched from their Western diet, which was made up of mostly processed foods, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Processed conventional foods, when they switched from that Western diet to the conventional Mediterranean diet with high fruit and vegetable consumption, they actually showed in their urine three times higher levels of insecticides and organophosphate intake.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So more basically more insecticides, pesticides in their urine.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's switching from a typical Western diet to a Mediterranean diet consisting of conventional foods.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And now how much, how much high, how much higher was that?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was three times higher.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then get this.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So then when you're comparing the group, the um the Mediterranean diet from conventional foods versus the Mediterranean diet from the organic food.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the Mediterranean diet consisting of the conventional foods resulted in 10 times higher total pesticide intake.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody went from a Western diet, they changed to a Mediterranean diet, so they're consuming more fruits and vegetables.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: They um in this study, they increased their pesticide intake 10 times, right, compared to the people who went on the Mediterranean diet and consumed the organic, um, the organic version of that diet.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a percentage-wise, they said that the um the total pesticides found in the urine, it was 91% lower when the people were consuming the organic Mediterranean diet.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this this is amazing.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this this flies in the face of what what most people, most quote unquote experts in our field are espousing, right?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: When they're saying to you, oh yeah, you're you're eating a typical American uh Western diet, just go ahead and you know get on this Mediterranean diet or eat more fruits and vegetables, even if you're not following Mediterranean diet, we always say, eat more whole foods, right?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you can't afford it, eat more conventional whole foods.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And here this study is showing that may not actually be good advice.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Cena, so so just to clarify, uh, because I'm not sure I'm following the beginning of this, the the folks who went into this study were consuming mostly, I mean, they were consuming the Western diet, mostly processed foods, not organic processed foods.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, they were all on a Western diet, mainly processed.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: They were just eating regular uh, you know, uh uh conventional foods.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: But spaghettios and di Gornio's frozen pizza, blah blah blah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they go on this Mediterranean diet, and even those people, even those people um had a three times higher uh pesticide residue in their urine than they were on conventional western pro.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is that because a lot of pesticides are broken down in the processing process?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I looked into this um because I um so when let me answer that first, and then I'll get into my other train of thought.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, and I'm gonna link to a a couple studies.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So people are gonna look at these for themselves.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there are studies published in the scientific literature that show that um processing foods, so like for instance, applying heat to foods, um, can break down pesticides and different um you know, herbicides.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, so the the degree to which they get broken down depends on the type of food, when it was sprayed, you know, on that particular food item and how it was actually processed.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you have all different kinds of processing that you can go through, um, you know, like dehydrating or pasteurizing, um, you know, milling.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we have studies to show what happens to these different types of pesticides.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: So part of it's gonna depend on if the pesticide is water soluble or fat soluble, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because that depends on where it's gonna be located in the fruit and vegetable.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um, for instance, in juice, you can find um residue levels in juice, um, depending on like if if the certain pesticide might be in the skin andor the juice.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the lipophilic residues, um, they are poorly transferred into the juice.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it would be largely retained in the skin.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, these are the ones that like fat.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the fat ones, the ones that are fat soluble.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is very complicated, is what I'm trying to say.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I'm gonna put some studies in here so you can look through it for yourself if you want to.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it depends on if the what kind of pesticide or insecticide or chemicals being used.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on where that will determine where it is in that produce.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then it determines did you peel it beforehand, did you wash it beforehand, did you boil it, did you blanch it?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Blanching has actually been shown to break down a lot of pesticides.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um it is interesting that you know, even though we think of these processed foods as being devoid of nutrients, on what and and they are and to a large extent, they are, right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not promoting people eat a bunch of processed foods, but at the same token, they're actually breaking down uh the process is breaking down a lot of the um or a good portion of these pesticides that are, as you know, are so damaging to our health.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so is the so is the uh is the as you mentioned, often in the processing, uh you actually you lose a lot of the base nutritional punch, if you will, the nutritional punch of a of a given food in the processing.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um what we don't know is is the is the reduction in nutrition um worse than the uh increase in pesticides.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, that's a that's a question these studies obviously didn't answer, but it is absolutely uh fascinating that um that the amount of pesticides would go through.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: We we know here, for example, uh on the farm, people sometimes ask us uh you know about some of the practices that we do.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh for for example, I'll give you an example.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, we have these very, very large compost piles here at Polyphase, and um occasionally uh we might take an animal from somebody else, maybe maybe a maybe a cow dies at a neighbor's place, okay?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and they don't want to spend$100 to have somebody came and haul it away.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so we're happy to take an animal like that, put it in our compost pile, because the compost uh uh actually takes out antibiotics, it takes out all sorts of really cool things, partly because of the heat, uh, but microbially microbially as well.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so um so we we're not we we trust um nature's processing, if you will, the compost pile, we trust nature's processing to to purify and sanitize things uh you know that that might that might be um concerning.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so so uh what this study is finding, I think, is an affirmation of that basic concept that these these procedures, um, you know, these chemicals do they do, I mean, even you know, the industry that they'll say, um, they'll say, well, you know, the chemicals don't have a long residue.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them actually are fairly unstable, and they're more unstable when there's a lot of activity going on in the soil through organic matter and and through microbial activity.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's the soil's way of processing, you know, processing toxicity out is just with its, you know, with its uh biological activity.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I agree.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're finding is that even though they'll say, oh, you know, this has a half-life of like 30 days or something, um, it breaks down, but then even um in some cases, the breakdown product is still harmful to human health, you know.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's great to have that, you know, half-life information, but don't forget that now there's breakdown products still on like on that produce or in that soil, you know, that can still harm you.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yes, um, I think this is um, you know, this is a fascinating study.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's one study, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you got to take everything with a grain of salt.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you and I grappled with this idea, with that initial question that I pose of the quote unquote organic processed food versus a conventional whole food, because in in the book we wrote together, In Beyond Labels, we created a continuum, you know, of this is where this is totally unhealthy.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And over here on this side is going to be the totally healthy food, you know, on the right-hand side is healthy food.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the goal of the book was we want to try to help you move to the right of this continuum to try to increase your health, increase your um your personal responsibility, increase your trust in your food, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you and I had to actually come up with um a to solidify our thoughts onto a continuum.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember we debated this continuum for upwards of half a year, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, I was so determined that I I did not want to have conventional produce on the continuum.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, how am I gonna actually um it has to show up somewhere on the continuum?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: How am I gonna put it on the continuum, but not promote it?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so uh just in case someone hasn't read the book, our continuum goes processed foods, higher quality processed foods, those are the organic processed foods.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then it goes into store-bought whole food and then locally grown whole food, homegrown whole food.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the question was okay, higher quality processed foods going to store-bought whole foods.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: What are we gonna, what are we gonna actually, what tip are we gonna give to people so that we don't make them sicker?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had heard over and over in the field, oh, just go ahead and switch from processed food to conventional produce because you're getting those nutrients, you're getting those antioxidants, you're getting those phytonutrients, which is also um an overstatement, right?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on how it was grown, when it was picked, whatnot.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't, I did not believe in that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: But most people, I would say in our area, think of that um that's dogma now, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's just what it is.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we did in the book, the very first real tip after harness your power and find a buddy, um, really the first one of substance is look for the 100% USDA organic label in your processed food.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's literally like that first tip that I wanted to get out there was immediately switch to organic processed foods, switch from conventional processed foods to organic processed foods.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, when um Akers magazine asked me what's the number one thing people can do to improve their health if they can only do one thing.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I told them it's to switch to organic, not switch to whole foods, switch to organic.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're seeing some science as to why um, you know, to support this statement.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, and I want to get your input on this.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I do want to say that I don't think that um the question that I posed at the beginning, it's not actually the correct question, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I posed that question because that um because that's not even being asked.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's being assumed that the conventional um whole foods are better.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I can pose that question.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: When I look at food, you know, you and I like to um help people learn how to think about food.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: We want to share how we think about food, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: To help them make their own um decisions um using informed consent.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when I think about food, what I actually think of is which one is least adulterated.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I go situation by situation, right?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm comparing two things, like the strawberry, conventional strawberries to the pureed organic strawberries, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I go food by food, which one is less adulterated?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because unless you're growing your own and you know the inputs and you're picking it ripe, you know, off the vine or off the tree, there is adulteration that happens.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is the question I ask myself is which one is less adulterated?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the question is actually too broad.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's trying, it's it's actually reductionist thinking.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so so that's how I actually approach food.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like we said in the book, we had to make a blanket statement.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I just skipped over, you know, not even promoting consuming conventional produce.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at all.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I I think the way we because you're right, Cena, it it is so um um it is so nuanced that you almost can't um it it it's all it's almost so nuanced that you can't discuss it.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: It it it it it because there's so there's so many threads, so many threads and what ifs and what ifs and what ifs and what ifs um that it just becomes a very complicated conversation.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if we if we just appreciate that um that we're going to eat you know chemical-free food um and then add into that on you know produced on healthy soils that have high organic matter, you know.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, when you start when you start adding all these phrases, all these contingencies on it, people people's, you know, their eyes glazed over and and they just they just can't follow you.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why the you know the first the first thing was just you know uh go organic.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes that includes local producers who use organic procedure.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe we should just say, you know, eat organic procedure and um and and and you know and and let it go.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just came up with that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that might be a better a better way because because uh both of us know both of us know that the certified, the government certified organic program now it certifies hydroponics, it certifies uh factory chickens, it certifies grain-fed feedlot beef.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it that it um the the the main thing you get with the organic certification is uh or the government the government program is no chemicals.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that that's not a that that's not nothing.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's it's it's it's significant as long as you as long as you can trust it.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know but they still do allow some chemicals to be used.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they they they do allow.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about we're talking about organic or organic production, organic production protocols.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whether it has a seal or a stamp or anything, uh the the the question is organic production protocols.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um actually I found this study.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put this one on the notes too for people to look at.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: This was done in part with um in partnership with the environmental working group.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: This one was also just released um in 2021 in August.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this was the most extensive study I'd ever seen in looking at um conventional processed food versus organic processed food.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: They looked at um almost 80,000 or about roughly 80,000 packaged foods representing 85% of all food products sold to the US consumer.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a good representative sample of what people are consuming on a daily basis that make up most of our calories.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, well, for the typical American.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So what they found was that um the quality of the ingredients in these processed foods, they improved as you moved from conventional processed foods to organic processed foods.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you had less ultra-processed ingredients, you had less sugars, you had less trans fats, you had less sodium, more potassium.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when we say, you know, switch from stop eating conventional foods right now, right?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the healthiest things you can do, is even just stop eating those conventional foods, processed foods, and start eating the quote unquote organic processed foods.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: The reason is because it it dramatically decreases your um toxic burden on your body.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So not only the amount of chemicals in the form of pesticides that you're eating, but as the study, the study is showing, you're consuming cleaner um ingredients.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So less ingredients in each one, less ingredients that are ultra um processed, less sugars, less trans fats.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, there's still trans fats in some in some foods.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're less likely to have colorings and artificial natural flavorings in those foods, um iodized salts.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're less likely to have grass chemicals.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so there is there is something to say that grass, uh grass being not grass like your lawn.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to keep the jargon, keep listening.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but but in generally recognized as safe.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is the G R A S acronym from the Food and Drug Administration that that uh allows a lot of dubious, even toxic ingredients to be put in food without any testing whatsoever, because they are generally recognized as safe.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: G-R-A-S grab.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um, let's do a show on that because people have asked me about that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So let's um bookmark that to do a show on that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: But so you are making impacts on your health, even when you're just walking in the grocery store, and instead of grabbing the conventional processed food, you're grabbing the organic counterpart to it.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and you know, as I just laid out here, there are many benefits of it.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, I you know, I don't think Joel, I think you'll agree with me on this.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're not, we are not promoting people go out and eat a bunch of processed, you know, organic, organic processed food, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: It still has its downside, it's still devoid of um of a healthy microbiome, for instance.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was still um processed with heat.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you have different phyto, you know, phytochemicals, phytonutrients, different enzymes you've that you've lost.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: These things are also broken down um to a certain extent, along with the pesticides being broken down.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a trade-off, like we said, there's a lot of nuances, but um this I think this study is fascinating.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it gives us something to really think about, and I think it shows us how complex the situation really is when you're deciding what to eat.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think in large part because of the complexity of our food supply.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I couldn't agree more.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And again, as you mentioned, uh in our book, we had we had this continuum.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So so while while we park in this podcast scene, as we park on this issue, it it our continuum uh goes way on beyond to having your own garden, you know, if you can.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where we're headed.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: But but if you have to park, if you have to park somewhere, because most of us make changes incrementally, we don't do it all at once.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so as we make these incremental changes, what we're what we're saying is it is actually better to have uh organic uh could we say uh organic convenience uh processed uh food than it is to go over to the pro to go over to the conventional pro now now I think seeing a we haven't mentioned this, but it would be it would be better to get organic unprocessed.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean so so if if you're if you if you can get uh whole foods, uh you know, a CSA share, if you can uh uh from a local farmer or or from the produce section of the you know supermarket, if you can get organic uh whole food, that beats organic processed.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: But that that's not what we're that's not where we're parked today.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: We just wanted to spend a little bit parking on this idea of well, I can't afford organic produce, uh, I uh uh and so I'll get conventional produce and that'll let me have enough money to buy uh organic processed.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd be better, you know, doing the organic process uh uh processed food over the whole foods at the conventional um uh aisle.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so I'm gonna add a caveat to that because um there is a layer of complexity.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what the study has shown.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um that I mean, that's the conclusion of the study, in essence.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like we said, it's it's um it for me, it's situation by situation.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't actually think it's appropriate to say, to make a blanket statement and say, okay, if you're gonna choose between this conventional conventional produce and organic processed food, always choose the organic processed food.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because as you've just nicely laid out, there's all these different caveats behind it.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there's individual need.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you are severely nutrient deficient, um, and you're not gonna get that nutrient from the from the processed food, like a vitamin C, you know, but you might get some vitamin C from a conventional um orange, right?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's very highly um individualized and in a situation by situation.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to, I don't want people to walk away with a blanket statement of I'm always gonna go for you know the organic processed food over the conventional produce, because that that's not the whole point of this.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: The point is to get you to start thinking, thinking outside of the box of what um a lot of these quote unquote experts are espousing is that it's not that easy, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we're doing this podcast is to help you navigate all these different nuances and better understand and better connect with yourself so you can make these decisions in real time on this situational by situational basis.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, uh, I got a question about that, about that study, the one that we're featuring here.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the Mediterranean diet, uh you know and I know that there, I think I think the the environmental working group has published like the the nasty 10 or dirty dozen uh you know of uh fruits and vegetables, the dirty dozen, and I think strawberries are way high on that list.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in other words, uh taking uh taking unprocessed uh fruits and vegetables and um and identifying what are the 12 kind of that have the greatest amount of you know pesticide and and chemical residue on them, because some actually don't have very much, like like for example, oranges.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oranges are not on that list because the sprays pretty much stay in the outside of the orange and the inside of the orange is protected.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if you peel the orange, I don't know very many people that eat orange peels.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you peel the orange, um you're you're you're you're not getting as much as you would otherwise.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So in this, so what I'm going with this is in this study, the Mediterranean diet, they they did not they did not parse out, they let people choose whatever fresh fruits and vegetables they wanted from the conventional, from the conventional uh produce uh uh vegetable section, um, you know, broccoli, strawberries, potatoes, uh, whatever.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: They let people choose whatever that was.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't they didn't have yet another subset that said, let's compare this with people not eating from the dirty dozen on the Mediterranean diet.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: That that would be yet another, that would be yet another uh whatever, you know, uh level of study that would wouldn't it wouldn't it be interesting to to say we'll go Mediterranean, but we'll not eat any of the dirty dozen.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for example, that would just be interesting, wouldn't it?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would be fascinating.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they they um the one conclusion they came up with was conventional fruits, vegetables, and whole grain cereals were the most significant dietary source of synthetic chemical pesticides.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have the parsing out of you know, um, produce fruit and vegetable like line items.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that would be fascinating to do that.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then you're also gonna more likely move away from a real world situation if you do that, right?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because somebody, somebody who's like, oh, I'm gonna switch to a Mediterranean diet but still eat conventional, they're probably the odds are they're probably not walking in there with the dirty dozen list and avoiding all of those um foods.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're probably just going in and trying to figure out, okay, now I have to switch from the convenient processed food to a whole food.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: How am I going to do this?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: How am I supposed to cook with a whole food?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So so that you do lose the real world aspect of it, but I do think that would be a fascinating study.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, we do list the dirty dozen and beyond labels.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: That that is a that is a list we have in there.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're wondering uh how to find that easily, you can uh you can get the book.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and so let me just let's end on that note.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let me say that um this is why in the book, like I said, one of the very first tips is get off conventional processed food and choose organic processed foods.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: But also when we move you over into the whole food section, this is why we pretty much skip over the we we we skip over even giving you the option of choosing conventional whole foods.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: We just say basically, um, I think the tip is on stop counting calories, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um and choose the whole foods.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the tip is basically stop focusing on calories, focus on buying organic whole foods, right?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we um that's how we kind of like blurred right over that was not promoting those conventional foods.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: But now we have uh at least uh a scientific study here to support that um that portion of of the continuum that we debated for six months.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I and I think the most interesting part of it to me uh is that this is not, you know, it wasn't a 10%, 20%, it was it was 300, it was a thousand percent.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was uh stunning uh the the amount of difference.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so you know, you can you can uh it it's like a lot of things, you know, if there's if there's not enough deviation to if it was 10%, well, you know, you could say, well, that's probably uh within the within a study's margins of error, right?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: But when it gets to when it gets to be 300 and a thousand percent, um that's that that that that gets your attention.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that caught my attention.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I said, oh my goodness, we have to share this, yeah, you know, with with our tribe, uh, because I I think we're we're falling prey to the dogma.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people in our field say it over and over and over enough that just just eat the conventional whole foods and we believe it.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm just saying it's not always the case that it's gonna be the better choice.