Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Rabbi Liz Hirsch: The Fight for Women’s Rights in the U.S. and Israel
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: welcome back to the Pluralist Podcast both sides of the ocean. We are recording today on International Women's Day, a moment that invites reflection on the progress that has been made for women's equality ⁓ and the work that still lies Today, we are really honored to be joined by Rabbi Liz Hirsch, the CEO of Women of Reform Judaism. at the organization that for more than a century has mobilized reform Jewish women to advance justice, equality, connection and growth. Liz, thank you so much for joining us. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Orly, Josh, thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wonderful. So maybe we want to start with sort of your sort of personal story. And if you could tell us ⁓ a little bit about your own connection to Israel, how it has developed over the years, whether there is like some kind of an formative experience for you that ⁓ influenced your relationship to Israel that shaped your leadership today. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes, think, know, when I think about my own journey ⁓ deep and now where we're standing sort of in this moment and the opportunity that I have to lead WRJ and to be a leader in our movement ⁓ at moment, like for me, it all starts with having ⁓ many experiences, spending time in Israel. So I don't have any immediate family in Israel, so I wasn't going to get there for family reasons. When I was in high school, I went a semester program. The Reform Movement semester program is now called Heller High. It was then called the EIE, Eisendrath International Exchange Program. And now, of course, Josh and I are great colleagues and friends and work together ⁓ on we do. that's actually when Josh, when we met, is, Josh, did you make Aliyah in order to teach our semester, or were you coming at the same time? And it helped. Josh Weinberg: I was invited to teach and I said this is the moment. So I said I folded up life and came on Aliyah and it was nice to come with a job, you know, and it sort of went hand in hand for me. that was 22 years ago. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: to make that happen. Yes, I know. And what was amazing about that semester, right, you came and they needed you to come because there were so many of us. There were 66 of us who were coming that semester, all from different reform congregations and communities or got connected in some way. And we were just immersed. And that being my very first time in Israel gave me the groundwork and the foundation not only to, you know, learned about the different biblical sites, right? Yiddiyat Haaretz, think, was really like the knowing of the land was the frame of what we did in that program. And also just to have positive connections, And associations and to begin making the personal connections and meeting Israelis. So then my goal just, throughout life was to get back there, to get back to Israel as often as possible. I studied at the Aravah Institute ⁓ on Kibbutz Keturah, which is a Peace and Coexistence Program, Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Americans lived on a keyboard together and tried to solve all of the issues of environmental conflict and also of the Middle East conflict. just along the way, having those experiences. When I finished college, I worked as a legislative assistant at the Religious Action Center and was assigned the Israel Policy Portfolio. And that was really the first step in that I had working with Rabbi David Saperstein, Eric Jaffe and many of the other leaders in our movement at that time, unlike the rest of the Religious Action Center ⁓ assistants who spent more time on the Hill, I was working more on the international policy side of things and got that real taste of things. And I think, you know, this why I think after October many folks you know, we just, had no idea what to do. I equally like everyone else, didn't know what to do. But through those connections and through that foundation, I felt a sense of comfort and confidence in the decisions that I was making and the way that WRJ was leading to sort of the next choice and the next choice based on that foundation. Josh Weinberg: I think through there, you may have also gone to rabbinical school and spent more time in Israel. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: That too. And live there for a year, Yes, exactly. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes. Josh Weinberg: it's a really beautiful story about how you've woven in both the connection to Israel, Zionism, Jewish peoplehood, with also social justice issues and really is trying to balance this to whether, and we spend a lot of talking about Israel as a Jewish and democratic state and what that means. ⁓ ⁓ and you've really embodied the, know, especially with the Arva Institute and especially, you know, like could edit this out, but like, you know, those, remember you coming up with like, ⁓ am I spare time? I just came up with this like, you know, really cool flow chart of how the reform movement should restructure at years old. ⁓ my God. You have to say you have to. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, I still have it, Josh. I found it again. So yes. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ wow. Josh Weinberg: You have to make that a PDF or something like that. have to save that. no, but it's really amazing. And where want to take this is to say, you know, when you came into the leadership position of women of reform Judaism, I feel like it was a conscious, strategic and deliberate decision, you know, an ideological decision to say that Israel is going to be a big Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: part of WRJ's work. And first of all, I couldn't be happier about that, of course, with looking at it from my lens. how is that going, essentially? And how are you looking at it from a leadership position? And how are members of WRJ really navigating these conversations about Israel today, especially during such a complex political moment, which has been complex since the moment that you began, I think, yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes, yes. ⁓ I started just, you know, in the summer of 2023. And think that, you know, something that I think that folks sometimes lose track of, especially around the bigger or perhaps generalized or stereotyped conversations about where the reform movement was at. I'm only speaking historically on Zionism and on the state of Israel. And ⁓ UAHC didn't come out formally on the record in support of Zionism until the 1940s. W.R.J.'s first policy resolution saying that we were in support of folks who were living in then Palestine, of course, as it was called, was in 1915. It was one of our first ever resolutions that we voted and we were focused more on education and women and aid, but we voted to send aid there. And this is somewhere I'm like fascinated to do the research, right, sort of what enabled us to think differently. But I think we've always had Josh Weinberg: Mmm. ⁓ It's incredible. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: that undercurrent of the ways in which we connect to Israel and Zionism is through people, right? We care about the personal connections. And I mentioned that I don't have any immediate family in Israel. That's the case for a lot of our members and our leaders and their connections to Israel are through our reform movement family, right? They feel that connection to the rabbis and the congregations and orally to you, to the leaders that are in Israel. That's what Orly Erez Likhovski: you Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: you know, weaves us together. So that's why we've been making sure that we get to Israel when we can since October ⁓ that we think about those connections as personal and real people ⁓ we strive to help and to support. And of course, thinking about ⁓ and all of those aspects too, but I think it's more just about our deep ties and connection and in some cases, the grant support that we give to different organizations. in the Flourishing Reform Movement in Israel. Josh Weinberg: And of course it should be said that W.R.J. played a major role as activists in the World Zionist Congress elections, which ⁓ was really critical. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah. And that was new for us, Josh. I think that something that's it to have that kind of an active role to have folks on the slate to be organizing. And that's something that came out of us knowing that we were positioned in the moment to do it. And also that because we are the umbrella for several hundred sisterhoods and women's groups that are located at reform congregations throughout North America, that we could also do the organizing and work on turnout for votes as well too. Orly Erez Likhovski: really amazing. I the whole, you know, the whole work and with the historical perspective. ⁓ I want to zoom ⁓ in and sort of dive in to talk a little bit about women's rights. ⁓ We mentioned that we ⁓ recording on International Women's Day and we know that specifically on this issue, ⁓ we've come a long way, right? There's so much that we already achieved. really worldwide, but there is still so much more to be done. And I want to sort of ask you, when you look today about women's rights, specifically in the US, we'll talk a little bit later about Israel. What do you see today as the most pressing issues around those issues? And what do you think should be done? Sort of what are your priorities when we're talking about women's rights? Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes, I want to speak about the US and I also want to make sure that I speak about Canada because we represent North America and some of those issues are a little bit different in Canada too. And I'm just back from a really meaningful visit with Holy Blossom Temple in Toronto. And of course, we're thinking about the congregations that just in the past week have been impacted by anti-Semitic violence in Canada simply for representing their values and Zionism as well too. So I think in the US, in particular, our key issues that WRJ has that we're working on are voting rights, abortion access, and gender-based violence. And we selected these issues. This is a collaborative process where our leadership in our social justice area think together about what are the issues where we can both have the most impact and that are most pressing for us. So when we think about voting rights, we know that women and Jews and all minorities are actually safest in democracies, right? And if we think about sort of connections between what's going on in Israel, what's going on in the US, women and Jews and all people are safest in healthy minorities and in healthy democracies, sorry. Like that's where we are making sure that people's rights can be preserved. So we're making sure that people have access to voting and working with a number of different national, but also Orly Erez Likhovski: you Right. Right. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: local opportunities for that as well too. Abortion access, it has been one of our top issues. Again, we've been on the record on that topic since 1935. And in 2022, the abolished the federal right abortion access ⁓ with the decision ⁓ overturning Roe Wade. ⁓ And many the activists and leaders that work with within WRJ will say to me, in 2022, the US abolished the ⁓ federal right abortion access ⁓ with the Dobbs decision ⁓ overturning Roe v. Wade. ⁓ And many of the activists and leaders that I work within WRJ say to I can't believe we have to do this all over again, right? They have worked tirelessly for access to basic rights of bodily autonomy for women and people who can become pregnant to have the ability just to say, this is my body. There's amazing ⁓ in the Talmud. I'll get the citation, but there's this conversation back and forth where rabbis are arguing about I can't believe we have to do this all over again, right? They have worked tirelessly for access to basic rights of bodily autonomy for women and people who can become pregnant to have the ability just to say, this is my body. There's amazing ⁓ in the Talmud. I'll get the citation, but there's this conversation back and forth where rabbis are arguing about a woman's body and like the sort of final sentence, of course, male identified rabbis and the final sentence is pshita, gufahi, like it's her body, just like, let's end this discussion. a woman's body and like the sort of final sentence, of course, male identified rabbis and the final sentence is pshita, gufahi, like it's her body, just like, let's end this discussion. So that's really what we feel about it. We've been working, ⁓ together with the Religious Action Center in the states ⁓ ⁓ level ballot initiatives that will hopefully bring back abortion access protections state by state and to build out the patchwork that way. But it is a patchwork. I live in Cincinnati and we are the first place that if you start driving north from Florida all the way north on all the way through up to Cincinnati and for folks less familiar with the US map, we are in the middle of the country where you can get legal access to an abortion if that's what you need. So you just imagine the people, the women getting in their cars and just driving and driving until you hit Cincinnati. It's unreal. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Wow. Wow. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: So we're working on all of these pieces and I framed it as access in particular just to note that while abortion is legal in Canada, I have learned from our partners there that access in rural areas in particular can be challenging if it's just sort of the distances that people need to travel in order to get to a provider. And I'm glad you spoke and asked me about these issues just because on April 12th, WRJ is convening a North American Day of Action. And by convening, mean, from where you are. We are hoping that everyone in local communities, I think we have ⁓ couple hundred events that people have agreed to host, that can take action on these different issues and we can hopefully have an impact in all of our local groups and sisterhoods and women's groups. And of course I regularly work coalition and come to the Hill to lobby on these priorities as well. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's that's an all three issues right or only on abortion abortions. That's all through. Yeah Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: all three of those issues. So groups can say, like, you we want to focus on voting rights. We want to focus on gender-based violence. We want to focus abortion access. Orly Erez Likhovski: So, you know, it's interesting because when I look at, you know, at Israel and we'll talk more in detail ⁓ soon, know, abortion is actually one of the issues which is up until now, you know, we hope it's not going to, you know, turn into an issue, but it is not an issue for women here in Israel. I mean, we have so many other issues ⁓ women, ⁓ by the way, gender-based violence, which has increased dramatically under this government. ⁓ up to the point that Israel is on the global safety index for women. Israel is now located 83 out of 181 countries. So the situation is very bad. But on the issue of abortion, it's a non-issue, which is so weird for a country that such an amazing, a really strong religious influence. And that, it's very different. So I think the forces ⁓ trying ⁓ limit restrict women's rights are are different in this sense and they have different motives. this could be part of the reason that the issues are not the same in both countries. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, Orly, I think when we speak about a lot of the different women's rights work that you are leading on and inspiring us every day with the work that IRAC does and that WRJ is so proud to support and advocate on as well too, a lot of it is less about access and more about erasure, right? About women's... images, their voices, their presence being erased from the public sphere. I'm sure we're to speak about the Kotel, right? So I think that a lot of these are, you know, not about sort of the restriction of those rights, like we're talking about, about abortion access here in the States, but sort of the way that women can have a public presence and an active role based on ⁓ the way that the government is shaped by a lot of the ultra religious forces. Josh Weinberg: you Well, it's really fascinating, you know, just to hear the different issues that you're working on and how those are all, you know, coming into play. And Orly, I want to get your take on how some of the differences are, how they're playing out differently in Israel and how we as a reform movement, you know, both approach them in North America and in Israel and around the world. But Liz, if you can, know, Orly asked us to zoom in. I want to ask us to zoom out for a second. and to show where have we made some progress ⁓ have we ⁓ And even there I say, as you mentioned with regarding reproductive where have we gone backwards? And to look sometimes when we're in it and looking up close, sometimes it's hard to say, well, things are the worst that they've ever been ⁓ ever. And you're like, well, actually we've made quite a bit of progress on some issues and some, you know, and sometimes we haven't. So help us understand a little bit about, you know, progress versus stagnation or even regression, dare I say. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, our frame that we take is being established in 1913. We trace all of the waves of feminism that have happened throughout the US and Canada. So our founding is very tied up with white women, and I say white women in particular, getting the right to vote in the 19 teens, 1920s in North America and moving all the way through. Josh Weinberg: the whole suffrage movement and the, Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Right, and stuff, exactly. So we take that long sweep ⁓ like, remember when just over 50 years ago women couldn't become rabbis, right? Remember ⁓ different ways in which ⁓ so women have been firsts in their field ⁓ and up in that way. And the sweep of history ⁓ and that that we've made. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: it still doesn't change the fact that we're living in one of the times, I think, where is so much regression and restriction in terms of women's rights, health, and access. But that's I love hosting the podcast that I host called Just For This, where each week I on, and Orly it was wonderful to have you a couple seasons ago, ⁓ women in leadership talk exactly about these issues, because we talk about both the progress that women have made the ways in which women are stepping up into leadership roles and how that makes an impact ⁓ also the real barriers and challenges that we still have in lots of different spheres. And I've come to see that one of the most impactful things about the podcast is both women sharing specific ways in which they've made advancements, the ways in which, as we discussed that we're limited. But also it's that see it to be it frame that happens of just to bring on, and I really ⁓ it as in the best way, a parade of women leaders to folks to say, you can see yourself in this leader. You can see yourself in this person. Women who are looking to role models of amazing ⁓ and advocates and social justice leaders in Israel or around the world are going to have listened to Orly's episode and say, ⁓ maybe that's something that I could do. And I think we find in every type of case that when people see that there's someone else who has been out there and leading and maybe someone who can even open a door for them, then that's how we really begin to change the situation in society. Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, I think like my take on specific issues of women's rights is that the huge progress that we made is really raising awareness for women and girls and for society as a whole for the need to fight it. You know, there is this theory of change that ⁓ three American scholars developed in 1991 called Felicino, Abel and Sarah ⁓ that spoke you know, naming, blaming and claiming. have you first have to name and unjust phenomenon, you have to understand who you need to blame and then you need to go and claim your rights. I think in Israel, and I think it's probably true worldwide, a lot of people specifically on what we have been ⁓ fighting with really generous support of WHA for many years, fight against exclusion of women and gender segregation is for people to first give it a name, right? And we gave it a name. We gave it the Hebrew name Hadarat Nashim. exclusion of women. is sort of a name that we actually coined more than 20 years ago. And people started to understand that there is a problem with it and started to see sort of the whole picture that it's not like one thing here and one thing there. It's a whole context of discriminatory practices that try to erase women, as you mentioned before, and also exclude them and prevent them from using public services as their male counterparts do. And it took us a very long time to actually educate the Israeli public and to explain to them that this is something that should not be respected or tolerated in the name of some kind of a multiculturalist claim. And think that at the beginning, it started ⁓ in with our fight against segregation on buses. When women were sent to the back of the bus, this is unbelievably still happening. Like you said, on abortions, I can't believe that we're still fighting this, right? It's only 20 years, but still. And at first, you know, at the beginning of the 2000s when we started dealing with it, people told me like liberal secular Israelis said, well, why do you fight this? You know, maybe we should respect this way of life. And it took a long time for us to explain to people that first of all, it hurts Haredi women, right? It hurts a lot of women and including women who are, supposedly agreeing to do that. And also it affects all of us and it affects society as a whole. And I believe that during this last 20 years, we made such progress, Josh, to your question, in the sense that today it's like the board understood that this is something that's illegal and should be fought. And that's, think, a huge development despite the fact that it still continues to ⁓ extent. But I think, ⁓ don't know you see this saying in North America about the raise more awareness of people, of the need to fight it. And that's a huge step forward. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, I also think that, you know, and Josh, with due respect, right, when you and I show up in spaces, like my existence as a woman and a rabbi is viewed differently from many folks, right? Like, so already starting out sort of from a different place of privilege, but I almost use that as an opening to say, like, so I'm already starting from a place of this is Josh Weinberg: Oh, 100%, yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: who I am and what I represent is not going to be in alignment or agreement with many of the folks that I'm interacting with. And then to move that into a space of public voice and public protest, right? I was thinking about a time when the judicial coup protests were going on and I was in Tel Aviv, joined our reform movement. partners and congregations that were holding Havdallah ceremonies, like just adjacent to going into the protests. And women were playing guitar and singing and leading and holding the title of rabbi. And then we marched in together and said the very thing that we were doing here, that we want to be in the public square in the way that we want to be in it. And so much of it is tied up in women's leadership and voices and representation that That's what we're actually marching in to stand for and to represent that. feel that when we're at the Kotel, I feel it in all of those different spaces, is if we start from a place of, if we want to exist in the way that we want to not just pray, but also to lead and to raise our voices, then we know already that purely existing is a form of protest. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, existing. I think, you know, the joke in the reform movement in Israel is that, you know, okay, guess, I guess men can also become reform rabbis. You know, that ⁓ ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Josh, I do want to say something about that because you know, it is still a phenomenon that a lot, you we have more and more Israelis who are looking for reform rabbis to officiate their weddings, right? Or Bar/Bat mitzvahs. It still happens and it's quite common that families would contact the congregation and would say, we want to reform rabbi, but we want a male reform rabbi. Okay, so that's like one step too far if it's going to be a female reform rabbi. And this is something that happens really all across Israel, including in very liberal spaces. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And it creates a dilemma, right? It poses a dilemma. Well, should we accommodate this or should we say, well, and I think most places do accommodate this because they're saying, okay, you know, let's give them the liberal religious services, but it is very painful, right? Obviously, if it's like a congregation. Josh Weinberg: Well, and there have been initiatives to say, know to refuse that and you know, just like in America it often we refuse to sit on all male panels and to say that but even the joke on that early is, you know, they call the congregation or they call the movement and say, you know, we'd like a rabbi and they get a bit more information say, oh, it doesn't matter can be any rabbi male female as long as they have a long beard and It doesn't look like and even when I talk to a captain right exactly, you know, even when I Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: ⁓ My beard's in the car, yes. My beard's in, yeah. Josh Weinberg: I always give the example of like a taxi driver who asks me, when he hears that I'm a reform rabbi, and it's usually him who asks. And then we talk about God and halakha and mitzvot. And I have to say, wait a second. Here I do have to check my male privilege because when my female colleagues... say that there are reform rabbi the whole conversation is about gender and not about god and halachah and mitzvot and you know sort of the Big questions of jewish existence. It's all about weight. Can women become reform rabbis? And it's not fair. just not fair. ⁓ and Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. No, but yeah, I think, yeah, I think Liz, you mentioned, I mean, need for females in position of leadership. And I think this is definitely true now in Israel. It might be the same in the States, but I'm not sure. The fact that under this government, we have only five female ministers ⁓ only one general of a government ministry. Okay. The previous government, had nine, nine female ministers and nine. ⁓ Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: and it's clear that female voices are not heard. We're now in the middle of a war with Iran. Of course, no women sat around the table that, know, the decision process. And think it's ⁓ clear that people more ⁓ females in leadership You mentioned, Josh, the that it's, know, the same goes in Israel. A lot of people would not a panel. or any discussion which is a male only panel and that's amazing, right? That's really important development because, yeah, but I think it's something that people think about, right? People have not thought about it before and now it's thought about because people want to hear female voices as well. And I wanna tell you about one of our struggles against an ultra-orthodox radio station which did not allow any women to be heard on air for two and a half years. we took them to court and they said, well, once we put women on air, Josh Weinberg: It's a step I would say, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: our audience, which is ultra-orthodox, just won't want to listen and we'll have to close down the station. And of course, the reality was the complete opposite because charade, right? Ultra-orthodox listeners wanted to hear female voices because that's really across the board that people want to hear both male and female voices. And I think in this sense, we see people that are much more liberal in comparison to the leadership, right? Which is today completely exclusionary and pushes away Female Voices and Female Opinions. Josh Weinberg: I want to build on Orly's point and talk about what women's leadership looks like ⁓ in the world and how you see that, rabbinic leadership, ⁓ organizational leadership, and how you and I both sit around the table the Conference of Presidents of major American Jewish organizations where we see women in positions of leadership in women's organizations, but still not enough in organizations. So ⁓ are seeing that changing role? I'm thinking about next week or in a days, ⁓ depending on this airs, that we will be at the CCAR convention, ⁓ the Central Conference American Rabbis for ⁓ largely North American rabbis. And we're seeing more and more women fill those roles. are you seeing that? You know this today. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, I think the question is well framed and an important one because the idea, which in the States at least gets very tossed around of a glass ceiling existing, is the situation that we're in. Whether it's at the Conference of Presidents that you mentioned, Josh, in different North American organizations that stretch and expand and cover a lot of different members and leaders or Josh Weinberg: Mm. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: in congregations and communities, we are seeing, to ⁓ opening and access of women to pursue higher level professional careers, and ⁓ course, more narrowly in our sphere for women to become rabbis and having now several generations of women who could do that, ⁓ that thinking more and more women are stepping into leadership roles, but many of those, it's. either that they are leading in volunteer capacities and volunteer roles, they are leading up to as a leaders. Yes, exactly. Or they're leading up to the highest role, the top position right there in the layer right below the, whether it's the president or the CEO, the top ⁓ staff, this top professional leader. there's also a big divide between Josh Weinberg: As lay leaders you're saying you're saying... Yeah. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: women who are leading smaller, more boutique organizations and those who are leading the big, giant, know, multimillion dollar budget organizations. So we still have this gap and there are, you know, women are struggling to break through in that way. And I think that many folks sort of say, all right, we've made so much progress, but we do still have so much further to go because what are the societal and bias pressures that are preventing women from breaking through into those top positions. Not everywhere, right? There are, of course, amazing women and leaders that we hold up and we think about at different points who are leading in top positions, but it's still the exception, not the rule Josh Weinberg: And I will say, first of all, I want to point to the reform movement in Israel, which for the first time has the top professional echelon and the top lay leadership. Even the director of the Israeli rabbinic program, as well as IRAC the IMPJ and the lay leadership are all led by women at this moment, which is something to celebrate. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes, we have a lot to celebrate on that and also a lot to learn from you. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's true. Yeah. want to ask you, we mentioned briefly the current political moment and the current government. And we see under this government specifically bills which are being pushed by different coalition members ⁓ that aim to restrict ⁓ rights of women. Right. seen, ⁓ we mentioned the Kotel, right. something which is very recent, just couple of weeks ago, a bill that seeks to prevent egalitarian prayer and of course prevent prayer by women of the wall and anybody praying in contradiction to the chief rabbinate. But we also saw other bills such as a bill to expand gender segregation in academic institutions. Today it's allowed only to some extent ⁓ some institutions. ⁓ Supreme Court allowed it in a very strict manner. Now they really ⁓ to allow anybody ⁓ all academic institutions to have gender segregated programs which are going to affect the ability of female lecturers to teach male students. And see another very problematic bill, which is a bill to expand the jurisdiction of rabbinical courts ⁓ to them to deal with civil matters. And it's going to affect specifically, not only, ⁓ mostly because obviously it's rabbinical judges or only male judges. So they're going to deal according to the Torah, right? To the Orthodox ⁓ interpretation the Torah. And this is going to be very problematic to women's rights. ⁓ And want to ask you, What, how have the priorities of WRJ changed the last few years since, know, this government is in power and ⁓ as see ⁓ those dangerous measures? Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, I think that obviously, and of course, and it just bears mentioning again and again, that we're thinking deeply and caring for everyone who is under the immediacy of the stress and the threat of the active conflict and war that's going on now. We pray that things will be safer and more peaceful even when we share up this conversation. That's the case right in this moment. And just days before ⁓ recent conflict broke out, we had women, not just in Israel, but from around the world. And WRJ was part of helping to galvanize and organize folks to speak up against that Kotel bill and any of those pieces of legislation. And you are always so wonderful about sharing those with us to make sure that we can mobilize our folks to make their voices heard. These are things that, you know, I think the Kotel bill in particular is one that stands out because it's not just about a place in Israel. It is, of course, an extremely holy place, a special place, but it is a place that represents the way in which not only Israelis, but diaspora Jews, Jews and women and people from around the world, how they can pray and have religious freedom and religious expression, whether folks want to be participating in a more open and free and inclusive way on the women's side of the Kotel and joining our friends at Women of the Wall, or they want to have access to the egalitarian Kotel, we know that the decisions that are being pushed forward or potentially being made by this government have an impact not only on Israelis, but the way in which Jews from around the world can find their connection to Israel. And in a moment where potentially folks say that is fraying, that is strained. Isn't that the exact opposite of what we want to be doing right now? than shutting doors and people saying that country and the way that it practices and authenticates prayer and my traditions and the way that I want to show up is not okay. Like instead of we want to be opening more doors and having people feel like they can ⁓ have that when they come to Israel that they feel connected and welcomed and embraced. Josh Weinberg: you Yeah, Amen to that. And let's let's build on that more a little bit. And how have the events of October 7th the ensuing war affected you ⁓ and WRJ and your priorities? I know very outspoken in terms of specifically the sexual violence that we saw on October 7th and giving award to Dr. Koukhov, Lévi-El-Kayyam. for her work and really highlighting that as a specific WRJ priority. Share with us a little bit about how that played out for you. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah, I think, you know, in the very hours of that most terrible day ⁓ a Hebrew speaker, as someone who was following, you know, different personal and accounts and things that were coming out, it was very clear that what we were seeing was gender-based and sexual violence, right? And let's sort of leave aside both the and the pain of the hostages and our enduring support for bringing them home that really also was a ⁓ force ⁓ so many of our leaders and advocates. But even on that day, what we know ⁓ as a a century old women's organization is that when people say that there has been gender based sexual violence, when there has been rape, when there have been these painful, terrible things that we believe them, right? That's sort of like the That's how we come into the conversation. So we were one of the first organizations in North America to put out a statement saying, this has happened, that there has been gender-based and sexual violence on October 7th. And that's just the position that we have been leading from, whether that's taken us to be, you know, lifting up the voices of folks who have survived these traumas to partnering together with. the initiative that Sheryl Sandberg lifted around screams before silence and sharing those voices, bringing them to speak from a dais at the White House to really authenticate and make sure that the world could hear their voices. ⁓ this is something that we know like even now as we move further away from those peak moments of the initial conflict that these traumas are gonna stay with everyone. ⁓ And know that When women say that this has happened to them, when people say this has happened to them, we believe them full stop. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, know, you know, mentioning October 7th and obviously terrible gender-based violence. what take from October 7th is really talking about the hostages ⁓ and all of the pressure, you know, that we put both in Israel ⁓ and of Israel and the US has made a difference. Right. And ⁓ so me, it's sort of a of agency that we have a lot of power to change things. even when it seems very, very difficult. as we are nearing the end of this episode, ⁓ want to ask you at this very challenging moment, I think for both of our countries, what gives you hope? ⁓ I think I mentioned before that my on our fights for women's rights ⁓ is very hopeful in the sense that we brought about a real change, right? Not only we got many women to receive compensation, Josh Weinberg: you Orly Erez Likhovski: before being discriminated against, but really changed the perception. And actually I take the example of our fight for women's rights and I try to replicate it in other contexts, right? Our fight against racism is much, much more difficult because I feel we haven't done this sort of shift in perspective yet as we did with the issue of women's rights. So what makes you hopeful looking toward the future? Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yes, I despite all what folks might feel is the reality the right choice, I am always a hopeful and optimistic person. And I think that's first because I get to work with amazing folks like you and we ⁓ support each and lift each other up through the work that we do. I also think I'm hopeful because the loudest voices ⁓ around Israel, certainly in the US and in North America, so often the minority, right? But we let the folks who are very far off to say, have no more relationship with Israel or Israel ⁓ ⁓ no wrong and we have to be supportive no matter what. Those are small minorities, but they often take up all the airspace. But what we know ⁓ the vast majority of folks who in between those two poles Those are the women and the people that I am meeting and speaking with every day in our broader reform movement. And we're the largest movement in movement in North American life. So ⁓ know that if we're able to connect with these folks who feel a connection to Israel, who ⁓ pride in their Judaism, that the key piece is to go back to the things that shaped my own Zionism. is just to get them to Israel and to have their own experiences. They have been bombarded with headlines and news and Israel has not left sort of public consciousness for several years now because of the violence and conflict since October 7th. And many of these moms and women in particular that I'm thinking about have been asked to sort of say, tell me what you think. And many of these women either haven't been to Israel or haven't been in a long time. then what they really need is the opportunity to come for themselves and to re-ignite or strengthen that connection. So, yes. fall, be, we, WRJ are going to be launching an initiative to bring more women and bring more moms to Israel. It's called Circles, and we're working on a city-based model, women join their circle. Josh Weinberg: If only there was such a program like that. Orly Erez Likhovski: Ha Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: travel together in October to Israel. We're starting with six pilot cities. And I think that based on all the conversations that I've had with folks about this heavily subsidized trip that's just gonna make it easy and accessible for moms who we define as ⁓ or parents who have kids 18 or under living at home, that they're gonna have their own experiences. They're gonna have their own connection. And then they're gonna be ⁓ sisterhood and connection. both with Israeli women and with Israelis, and then also with that group of folks when they get back home. Josh Weinberg: That sounds amazing. And I know that you'll, while there, make lots of connections with our reform movement on the ground there, whether it's different congregations or with Orly and with Anna and the leadership, of course, that will be imagined. And how do you see that actually changing the relationship between Israel and the diaspora? Let me frame it in the following way. Like, I appreciated you sharing some different areas of where you see hope, but I want to ask. What do you hope for? What do you hope to see, whether it's the next year or the next five years going down the line? Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Wow, just, you I hope that we can return to a place where to be able to connect on a regular basis, hopefully through folks getting to Israel, that it's a place where you can go and we can talk and really work about the issues that are impacting society. And we're not in this immediate, you know, challenged existential place and folks can just dive deep into their own relationship and their own connection with Israel and with Israelis and the same true for Israelis and North American Jews, right? That we can strengthen the ties of Yisrael, of peoplehood, but to have that be through the depth of connection and relationships have that be something where it's a place where people want to thrive and be there together. Josh Weinberg: Well, I know that we're all excited to partner with you on all of these things and to see how it plays out. you. Orly Erez Likhovski: Liz. Yeah, for sure, Liz. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm looking forward to welcoming you in the Circles ⁓ mission. thank you so much for being with us here today. And thank you so much for all your work and for your support. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: If you found this conversation meaningful, ⁓ please share it. These are the kind of discussions we need more of, honest, and grounded in reality. Josh Weinberg: Now I want to encourage all of you to subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. You could even go in and leave a five-star review and tell us how meaningful these conversations are you and how helpful you find them in analyzing and synthesizing the complex world in which we live. So please share and give us a review. Thank you so much. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you. Thanks, Liz. Bye bye. Rabbi Liz PG Hirsch: Thank you. ⁓