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When the Mirror Says 30 · The Blind Chick

• Penn (00:00) Hello everybody and welcome back to the blind check and happy to say that's Moses Street. Moses (00:09) And that's Penn Street the... ⁓ Penn (00:18) Okay Oh, it's good to have you back, Moe's. It's been... Moses (00:23) That's actually how we say good morning to each other every morning. Penn (00:27) I know we do. has a, what is that, a paper towel. Moses (00:30) paper towel tube and every morning it's bed just rolls over and goes you still here Penn (00:33) Yeah, that's right. No, I had, I whack him on the forehead and hit snooze. Just kidding. But yeah, a couple of weeks ago I was on by myself because you were at a lot of doctor's appointments and I shared why you had those doctor's appointments was you were getting radiation and we're happy to say that for now, I hope this is wood. I'm knocking on wood. Moses (00:50) Ha ha! Penn (01:15) Everything went well and... Moses (01:17) Well, and yeah, that was the only thing that went wrong is while he was giving me the radiation, a fly, they were doing it for my hearing. And there's the equivalent of a little tiny mole on the nerve for your hearing. And so they do a pinpoint nuking that and ⁓ It was so the only thing that went wrong was a fly landed on my ear while they were doing it. So I can now spin webs and fly from building to building. Penn (02:01) That's awesome. That's awesome. Moses (02:03) So in fact, I just got back a little run around town. Penn (02:08) Yeah, exactly. do have to say, because I have not shared this with you, but I have shared it with a couple of friends, is when I was, course, in the waiting room and I was actually working trying to stay focused and not thinking about what you were going through. And I hear my name, know, Penn, Penn Street. And I looked up and you were close enough that I could actually see that there was a nurse there and she was pushing somebody in a wheelchair. I was like, well, that's not Moses. I must have heard her wrong. So I went back to work and then Moses says, Penn, Penn. And they were even rolling closer to me. And I looked up again and it's like, I knew it was a nurse pushing somebody in a wheelchair. And I could, I knew it was you because I recognized your voice. Moses (02:42) Bye. Penn (03:06) But my brain would not register that it was you because you were in a wheelchair. I had never ever seen you in a wheelchair until that moment. it literally like was not part of my reality and it was hard for me to react. And then once I did realize it was you, like choke it like choked me like physically choked me and I couldn't breathe for a second because It was like, wait, what? And it was super emotional to me, but of course I just swallowed it because I wanted to be there for you and make sure you were okay. Because I knew we were still going to be there for like an hour or so. I didn't want to start blubbering. ⁓ But it was, and I do want to thank, we got a lot of emails. from you guys out there from that episode, just sending Moses lots of love. And Scott down in Guatemala, thank you for your prayers. yeah, just thank everybody for sharing their thoughts and sending. And you know, I ask for prayers, fairy dust, it takes. Moses (04:31) New Maserati, that'll pop up. Penn (04:34) That would have been... We haven't gotten that. I'm sure that's coming in the mail. But it was beautiful. All the, you know, and most of them, most of you I didn't even know. So it was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Moses (04:49) Just a kind of a heads up is both Penn and I are huge believers in therapy. And anything that alters you is a therapy. Like I do a photo therapy and it's not that I am doing psychotherapy on you. am teaching, I can teach people how to be photogenic, believe it or not. And so in ⁓ fact, I don't think Penn and I would even be together if it hadn't been for tons and tons of therapy when we first got together. so anyway, so coming into old age for me, it's kind of a head trip. And it's, how would you put it? I, my life was adventurous enough that I've had at least six near death experiences that I should not have walked away from it. ⁓ and so death itself, it's, it's like, that's great. It's all over. Okay. And so, so when you're terminally ill or you've been in an accident, staying alive, is what hurts. you thought about it and died, ⁓ the pain just ends. Penn (06:19) Just I know there's no more doctors appointments. Scans and pokes and prodded. Moses (06:29) Yeah Yeah, for the first time ever you cannot pay your taxes and get away with it. But anyway, anyway, going into old age, I have been really, really, really, really, really, really lucky in that at 78, which is so weird to me that once in a while I'll be thinking of my age and I'll go, well, I'm 68, I'm getting old. The idea of being 78 is just beyond me. So anyway, ⁓ Luckily, medically, ⁓ I've got nothing huge at the moment. so everything, but we're doing all the doctor's stuff and that kind of thing. But psychologically getting old, and I'll end it funny, ⁓ psychologically getting old is ⁓ mentally, emotionally just bizarre. because it's like, for me, within, I'll be optimistic for me, within 25 years, I won't exist. That's kind of a head trip when you're actually finally there. And then of course, like everybody, the mental emotional state you reach, which is usually in your early years, you maintain that age right up to the end. for me, I always, I look in the mirror and I see a 30 year old, ⁓ it's that strong. So you've got that kind of mental stuff going on. And ⁓ so anyway, I started going to therapy, not that ⁓ any crazy thing was going on between Ben and I. or that I was getting super depressed or there was nothing like that. It was just like, how do you end? It's just you're coming to an end. ⁓ But to end it funny is I had hit a high degree of fame as an artist and a photographer. And so I can't even believe I believe this. thought for all the stuff I invented and all the new stuff I introduced into photography over the years ⁓ that did not exist before I came up with it. ⁓ Kind of an example is ⁓ clear up through the 1970s when you went in for a portrait, it was probably in a studio lit with all those lights. And ⁓ so in the sixties, I thought, that's crazy. Those pictures are so boring. And there were photographers for the magazines and the art galleries doing this amazing stuff. And so I thought, why don't I photograph people on location? That was unheard of in 1968. Just did not exist. And I stuck with it long enough. And there were a few other photographers that I knew that were doing it and Ed DeCroce got the credit. But so when you do stuff like that, you go, ⁓ your legacy. No, you don't. Your legacy only lasts as long as it takes your kids to get everything from your house into the dumpster. ⁓ And that's a hard pill to swallow. And so with the therapy, we've been talking about it and I go, damn it, I'm famous. I need to be in the history books. I need to be here and there and on the Tonight Show and all that. And the therapist just got hysterical laughing, of course. he goes, Moses, he goes, when you talk about the famous people you hung out with in the 60s and 70s, and you're telling some young person about them, They don't know who you're talking about, do they? And yeah, mean, if you go, do you know John Paul Ringo and George to a 20 year old? They're going to go, no, I don't know who that is. And you go, the Beatles? even then they'll go, the Beatles, I've heard of them. Or they'll go, no, I haven't heard of the Beatles. And you're sitting there going. And me as a photographer was worried about having a legacy, you know. Penn (11:27) It is true. mean, it's even looking back at even film stars or even authors, right? John Steinbeck is my favorite, favorite author. I mentioned John Steinbeck to most people. They don't know who he is. Moses (11:44) Or to me, one of the greatest writers ever was Thomas Hardy. And again, nobody today even knows who that is. Penn (11:53) Yeah. Well, no matter who it is, like even Shakespeare, right? You think everybody knows who Shakespeare is, but I've met plenty of people that don't know who Shakespeare is. It's like, and that's interesting to think that a legacy is only... It's a con. Yeah, it's only as bright as the people who actually care, really. Moses (12:20) Having met famous people, there's a certain personality. ⁓ To me, people like the Rolling Stones, if anybody out there actually knows who that is. ⁓ But the Rolling Stones are definitely working to keep their legacy, as is Dylan and ⁓ Paul and Ringo. ⁓ But it takes a certain personality to maintain Penn (12:48) and money Moses (12:49) Yeah, to maintain that level of fame. And to me, they're just the icon for what the field. So Mark Twain was an icon for the period that he came from. And very few people have that ⁓ ability to stay famous long enough to make the history books. I didn't. Penn (13:16) Yeah, yeah. And well, and it's interesting too, because I've never thought about a legacy or anything. ⁓ But I like the whole thing with the White Cane Project ⁓ is something that I'm definitely extremely passionate about. And I would like it to live on past me, not because I started it. It's just it's the right thing to do. blind people should have access to free white canes if they need one. mean, it's like that to me is a no brainer. And I'm sure there's lots of our listeners out there that have things like that in their lives that, you know, maybe, you know, unhoused people are your passion or you know, feeding the hungry or whatever it is. Like we all have these things that we're passionate about that we would like them to live on after we're gone, just because it's the right thing. But I never thought about anything I've done as a, like... Like as a legacy, I've never created anything or, I mean, I guess I created the White Cane Project, but it's different. Moses (14:41) They're just not a product. Penn (14:45) Yeah, and maybe that's what it is. it is interesting with you getting older and especially with these health things that we're going through right now with you is that, and I have dear, dear friends that are in their 90s that I still enjoy hanging around. So it's not really the number, but I do think about like, Well, what if you do go first? And what do I do with all your stuff? Because most of your stuff is visual. Like, I can't enjoy your photos. I can't enjoy your famous people photos. I can't enjoy your landscapes. And if the girls don't want them, it's true. Like, they're going in the dumpster, right? They're going for 50 cents at a garage sale. And even like your cameras. mean, you created all these amazing philosophies around photography with these cameras. But... It's gone. Unless a museum wants them or something. Like it is interesting. And it's not just you. We have several friends. Moses (16:01) This is just. Penn (16:12) that are like you, like they've had this sort of prestigious career and they would like it to live on after they're gone. But in reality, it's probably not. No. Moses (16:24) It's not Yeah. Well, that was even the therapist this morning, you know, he's going and it's, what every artist tells every, you want to be artists, do it for yourself. Don't do it. Don't do it for the money. Don't do it for the fame. Don't do it. You're doing it because it brings you great pleasure. And, and there, and I always told every kid that, know, that, that wanted some advice and, and Penn (16:38) Yeah. Moses (16:55) I would say stay amateur because the minute you go pro, you have to do what the client wants and not what you, you can do a little bit of what you want to do. Penn (17:08) Well, and I think that's the awesome thing about photography, because even if you, thank goodness you haven't started losing your vision. ⁓ But even if you did, you could still take photographs, like for pleasure. And everybody around you is thankful that you're doing that, because you still get asked to do paid portraits, you still get asked to volunteer to photograph. events, you photograph me, you photograph the kids, you know, the grandkids. Like people still really, really enjoy your photographs. Like this is sad but funny is Moses and I have been going to all of the Colorado Lions conventions because we're lions, but also because AfterSight is a Colorado State Lions project and then Of course, we have the White Cane Project, I head up. so there's five total. There's four districts and then one state. And Moses and I have been going to all of them. And they've been asking him, will you please photograph the convention? Because they love how he photographs. And Moses donates his time and he processes the images and they're really nice. But this last one we were at last weekend, they asked me for a photo of Beethoven because they do a memorial, the districts in the state do a memorial of all the lions who've passed. And so was really sweet. They asked me for a photo of Beethoven to show, but right before the memorial. Unlike most people, and yes, I'm sure everybody photographs their dogs or cats or whatever their pets are. ⁓ But I have ⁓ hundreds, not just, I don't have hundreds of photos of Beethoven because we photographed him all the time. I have hundreds of, every single one of them is like a portrait, a perfect portrait of a guide dog. you know, and I mean, I really had to go through them and going, Oh my gosh, which one represents him in this slideshow? And I picked one because I knew it was the beginning of the memorial as he's Moses is down below and he's shooting up and Beethoven is on a rock. And it's mostly sky, but you can also see the Rocky Mountains behind him. And I thought that that was symbolic of people who've died and are moving on. But even those photos are going to live on way past you ⁓ just because they're beautiful, beautiful portraits. Moses (20:26) And the kids are well aware that they are well documented. And a lot of the styles that I developed that if you take pictures out there, you're doing stuff I came up with in the sixties and seventies and eighties. so the kids, ⁓ I mean, you could do a museum show just off the pictures of you and the kid. Penn (20:58) ⁓ I know. I mean, anytime somebody asks me, Penn, send us a photo for the brochure or, you know, when I do speaking events, they want, you know, some sort of shot of me on the program. And I was like, okay, because there's so not that I'm great looking or anything. It's just you, you have a talent that you bring out the beauty out of people. And And they love the photos. so I think that in itself, Moses ⁓ is a beautiful, incredible legacy. And I think that that has rippled through thousands upon thousands of people around the world that you will never know. So I think the legacy that maybe you've had in your mind might not happen. They're not going to name a street after you, except your last name is Street. Ha ha. Moses (21:56) the streets after me. Penn (21:57) Yeah. But like, you're not going to be on the Tonight Show, Jimmy Kimmel, but you have, kind like me with the White Cane Project, like, I don't know, I haven't met most of the people that received those canes. Most of them I have, I know their names, but I don't know who they are, what their situations are. But I... I hope that that white cane is having an impact in their day. And they probably don't even know my name. You it's not the Penn Street Cane. If they just get a white cane, magically appears in their mailbox. But I think it's the same thing with you is I think you have created this legacy and that you, every once in a while, will get a client that will tell you, my gosh, Moses, you've changed my life. You changed my family's life. ⁓ you know, I still have that. portrait that you did of my parents up in my house. You know, it's, think your legacy ⁓ is going to live on. Moses (23:04) What's neat is it's still everybody's favorite ⁓ picture. ⁓ I'm coming around and I'm getting the idea that I know what the legacy is. And after I die, there is no reality for me after I die here, you know? And so if you think about it, who cares? Penn (23:34) Yeah. Moses (23:35) But ⁓ one more plug for therapy is my therapist's name is Vortek and he works in Out of Four Collins and we both like dark humor. And ⁓ because, how would you put it? I have worked with some of Penn (23:37) Dust to dust, ashes to ashes. Moses (24:03) really ⁓ nationally famous therapists and they were helping me on a project on how to use photography as a life-changing thing for ⁓ therapy and all that kind of stuff. And so when Vortech and I get together, you would have no idea, it has been extremely helpful. ⁓ But at the same time, if you heard us talking, you'd think there's two old guys in there just cracking up for 45 minutes. Penn (24:42) That's awesome. Yeah, and I did want to... ⁓ Last week's episode of The Blind Chick was with Mindy and Sean. ⁓ right. And you and I had such a great time on that interview. And it really makes me want to do more interviews with couples because it was so much fun. And I would love to do more of that. And Mindy and Sean have become friends. it was amazing how much, even though they are much younger than us, how much we had in common and how they're Moses (25:31) I was retired before they were even born. Penn (25:35) Exactly. But also, it was neat with them because no matter how old you are, how long you've been together, you still, it's all choices of, know, this is the person that I want to get through this with. is, you know, yeah, this may be a rough spot, but I gave those vows. I chose to stick with with this person and I do love this person and they're my heart and that they can move forward with everything because and it was just it was such a beautiful episode. If you haven't listened to it, please go back and listen to last week's episode. really was wonderful, wonderful episode. Moses (26:28) fun because of all the and it's yeah I can't push therapy for couples I I would be personally really leery about couples therapy because every time somebody's told me about couples therapy Penn (26:31) They were funny. Yeah, we, it was never, did not do that. and I did not. well, we, we tried it, but to me it was not. And they're not supposed to, but I feel like they do. Moses (27:01) one person's side whether Men is way more likeable than me. And so the therapist would just go, what are you doing with this ball? Penn (27:17) Yeah. And I'm not going to say you should not do couples therapy because lots of couples do therapy together. it like, I'm not going to say their names because they haven't given me permission, but we have very close friends that are in couples therapy and they've been in couples therapy for a long time. And they dedicate being in a strong relationship to this couples therapy. But for Moses and I, just didn't work. Moses (27:47) Well, lot of it is, ⁓ couples will say, well, all we need is love to get us through everything. Penn (27:56) That's a Beatles song. Moses (27:59) I wish that was true. You got a lot of and yeah, like them a lot. But like a crazy thing I learned and Penn and I would, if there was any big deal that came out of therapy, we would talk it over between us because our primary goal was Penn (28:01) my knee! Moses (28:27) how to have a really happy, enjoyable ⁓ relationship, ⁓ which neither one of us had really ever had. ⁓ But one of the things I learned was that when you marry somebody, and this was partially from what I was working on photographically, but when you marry somebody, odds are the person you married looks like somebody in your family that you really liked. Okay, so you've got that going. And so I started paying attention to that, shooting dozens and well, hundreds of weddings. And sure enough, there was always somebody in the groom's family that looked like the bride, had a personality similar to her, ⁓ and vice versa. And oftentimes it was the parents. And so what happens when you're going to the altar, you think that person is ⁓ going to give you something that you did not get growing up, generally from your parents. And they think the same of you. So there's four people getting married and they don't even know the two most important even exist. And then they get all upset when that person doesn't ⁓ fulfill what they missed from their parents. But you don't even know that's why you're doing it. Penn (30:04) Well, yeah, I mean, they have lots of words for it. Baggage, luggage that you bring into the relationship. Dump truck. Moses (30:10) Yeah, just or just a man. Penn (30:19) That's interesting because I do not think, I can't think of a single person you remind me of in my family. Moses (30:26) There's just from conversations, there's some things about Tim that I Penn (30:33) Yeah, I could see that. You don't look like him or anything, but your sense of humor is definitely like Tim was. Moses (30:35) Her brother. and Tim, this shows you photographically. We were just rambling today. So her brother around me was very quiet, rarely ever said two words. And that was if we spent a whole week in the same building. so. Penn (31:06) Most of my family's quiet though. Actually, would say all of Moses (31:09) And Penn used to be. Yeah. And so anyway, I just thought of him as being kind of this meek guy. And I had photographed him with something and I had just seen those pictures of him that day. And that night I ⁓ saw ⁓ Bono from U2 ⁓ doing a concert, it was on TV or someplace. And her brother was a dead ringer for Bono. If he'd have walked out on stage instead of Bono, ⁓ before singing, of course, nobody would have known it wasn't Bono. ⁓ so it is, how would you put it? Yeah, Penn's family was really good looking. Mine were good looking enough. Penn (32:13) So who do I remind you of in your family? Moses (32:17) Huh. that came up in therapy today. ⁓ Penn (32:22) So can we not talk about that? Moses (32:24) Yeah. I would say, huh, I don't know. ⁓ I know that I would, ⁓ and this was part of therapy today. I know I was trying to get from you what my mom didn't give. And, it was, ⁓ Penn (32:50) You're a daughter, Mom. Moses (32:53) That's neat. can I tell the story about taking you home for the first time to me? Penn (32:59) You can. Okay. Moses (33:01) It was, ⁓ I dated a lot and in all the years I dated, my mother from the very first high school girlfriend up to Penn had never ever ever liked a girl I was dating. Ever. And usually was very vocal about what are you doing with this woman? You know, you got to get away from her. You know, she's not good enough for you, all that kind of junk. And, and never liked him. And so then Penn and Penn's got a nicer, more romantic way of putting it. But Penn and I, when we met, we were both kind of at the bottom of our barrel. And, and, ⁓ so I would definitely not be the guy you would want to take home to meet your parents. And I know that because I never had a girlfriend parents that liked me even a little bit. and so, and Penn was a real wild child growing up. And so I thought no way's mom going to like her. She's just, Penn's too wild. And, and so we go home. And within the first 30 seconds, Penn was the daughter my mother always wanted. Penn (34:36) I think part of it was that first time I was around your mom was Christmas. the girls, ⁓ Chantra and Tate were with us and they were little, they were only five and eight. ⁓ that's right. the girls and I had instantly became best friends. then Also, your sister had a baby, a new baby. Jordan was only like three months old, maybe, if that. And I was a baby. I'm a baby whisperer, always was. And so I instantly picked Jordan up and cooter. ⁓ cradled her and babies love me. I don't know what it is about me, but I love them. Maybe that's what they pick up. Like I love babies. And so I love kids in general. And Jordan just loved me from, so this is her, your mom's new grandbaby. And so I think that might've had something to do with it is that I was drawn more to the kids. you know, and I, cause I think your sister Liza was there with her little one. ⁓ I, Moses (35:57) And I know Liza and David loved you from the first up. Penn (36:00) Yes. Well, I would say Sarah and David loved me. Liza, I think Liza, your sister Liza, we now, I adore, I adore Liza. Like I adored Liza from the first two, but I think she was, who is this young girl who's half my brother's age. Moses (36:23) And speaking of that, in a way, you have a lot of Liza's traits. You know, you Penn (36:28) I take that as a compliment. Moses (36:30) You're both really hard workers. ⁓ You're both really good to everybody around you. That kind of stuff. Penn (36:39) Yeah, she is. But your sister Sarah and David were super sweet to me and your mom. ⁓ Your brother Chauncey, that's a whole other story and he does not remember. Moses (36:50) It's so embarrassing. took Ben. Penn (36:54) He thinks his story is not even worth Moses (36:59) He doesn't even remember. Penn (37:03) He can live in his little la la fantasy land, but that was not how it came down. But yeah, it is fun though. mean, you only really met my sister Sheri and my brother Tim. Tim liked you from the beginning. nice. Yeah, Tim, he even would stand up for you. Like if I'd call him going, Moses just... Moses (37:08) I Penn (37:29) shut this and my god and goes pen get a grip like ⁓ like he always he usually took your side Moses (37:39) I'm gonna have to buy him a beer when we get to the after. Penn (37:43) ⁓ But yeah, and my sister Sherry, I always, I never could tell. no matter who I dated, I don't think it was, I mean, hopefully by now 38 years later, she'll, but yeah. Yeah, it is fun. I would love to hear from our audience if they feel that's true in their situation, like your spouse or your significant other, your partner. ⁓ Who do they remind you of in your family? Or look like? Moses (38:22) Well, going along, I still can't think of even visual, but after my divorce, I realized that you take 50 % of the problem away from that marriage and... In my case, I probably was 75 % of the problem. And so I thought, I just cannot make a mistake again. cannot make a, I cannot. And knowing that I had to change. anyway, one of the pop psychology things that they had going then, and it's probably true, but who knows, is that you, visualize the woman you want to meet. and so I, uh, had met Darryl Hannah. And, uh, so you might know she was in, uh, like a Cyranacte de Bourgio movie with Steve Martin. Uh, she's a tall, thin blonde woman. Uh, her big breakout movie was with Tom Hanks in the mermaid movie. ⁓ Splash. Splash. That's it. And ⁓ then she was in a ⁓ Robert Redford movie. was the end-all movie star of the 80s and as famous as any young movie star. And so I knew her. I had photographed her family a bunch of times. knew her. And ⁓ she just has this really nice, soft, Persona- Penn (40:15) She does. She still does when I met her and tell you I chose. Moses (40:19) She still has that voice and she is just so sweet. so going back 38 years, well that would have been 40 some years. She was also incredibly good looking. So I thought, okay, I want somebody incredibly good looking like Daryl Hannah and somebody that nice and fun to hang around. That was fun. So the visualization worked. Penn (40:54) Well, on that note, yeah. but I know I wanted to make sure we addressed that Moses is okay and strong and we'll know more in about three months. ⁓ yeah, it's scary knowing, you know, do you have 10 years left? Do have 20 years left? Moses (40:55) All I had Penn (41:23) And the quality of those years, that's more the concern with me is I want you and myself, but I want us to have quality memories. And we are doing that. I love that we're taking time to relax and chill. This year has been a big focus already on let's get away and go sit in the hot springs or go sit by on the ocean or... Moses (41:29) quality. Penn (41:51) ⁓ Go sit in a mountain vet meadow, whatever it is. we just, Moses and I have been really focusing on self care and being with each other and creating memories and talking. Like I don't think we've ever talked this much, but just sitting and having coffee and how are you and no, how are you really, are you, what are you afraid of? Are you? What are you looking forward to? Well, what do you want to do next weekend? you know, it's like we're actually communicating better now than we ever, ever have. And I think it is because we both know we don't, we don't have 50 years left. If we have 20, that would be a blessing, but I want those 20 to be quality years, not one of us hooked up to a machine. Right. And we're stuck inside our house. if that happens, how can we make that be an adventure? Moses (42:57) And I would recommend one other thing too is I never ever understood retirement. So you work, work, work, work, work. And then when you're too old to do anything, you retire and start traveling and all that kind of junk. And from day one, I said, I am going to do my bucket list starting at 18. And Penn and I, we have had, ⁓ even though we worked ourselves to the bone, luckily as an artist, we could take three to four months off in the winter and also being in a tourist town. And, and so we did our retirement for the last 38 years. And while we could still do Penn (43:29) Yeah, don't don't wait. Moses (43:57) everything. like, like Penn can't ⁓ climb mountains at the moment. And because of her breathing and stuff. ⁓ but we climbed 14 or together. We've, we've climbed a lot of mountains together. Penn (44:17) We biked them, we've skied them, and maybe it's not over. Maybe if I can get my heart strong enough again, maybe we can. But there's a lot of things to see. Absolutely. Like we both still really, really, really want to see the true epic Northern Lights, right? And I want to do it before I lose any more vision than I already have. Because they're already... We are definitely... Moses (44:46) fuzzy so there's to be a block ⁓ enjoying them. Penn (44:52) No, but we are looking at either this fall or maybe next spring of either going to Alaska or go back to Iceland or Norway or something where we haven't been. But yeah, we're still looking ahead. Moses (45:08) we could expound on the next time, but just because we're talking about relationships is the other one is besides, love will get us through that. That just, ⁓ helps you deal when you're furious at the other person. ⁓ but more than that, everybody goes, we just need to communicate. And I made my career communicating. ⁓ I, I had to, any personality in any mood, I had to get them in a really good mood, ⁓ for two, three hours. And, and, ⁓ and, and even my communication was so good. I had been in some really tough spots that I had talked my way out of, ⁓ and I'm still alive because of it. And, ⁓ but. when Penn and I started going to therapy, we rapidly realized we couldn't communicate. I mean, we talked and that kind of stuff, but we couldn't communicate to save our lives. it is, I'd say our whole relationship, we're still learning to communicate. ⁓ and because it's like, Well, all the humor, you know, when a woman says something, she means this. When a guy says something, he means this. That's the humor part. ⁓ I'll quit on this because I know we're hitting there. Penn and I used to argue loudly and never anything physical. And in the early years of our relationship, Penn (46:45) No, yeah. Moses (47:04) we needed to yell and scream at each other. And we don't regret it at all because we really needed it. And we both tolerated it from each other, but we didn't really want to do it. And we literally, a version of therapy, which would take too long for today, we learned we didn't have to fight. And so it's not that we don't disagree or I don't do something that ticks her off and vice versa. But we don't fight about it. We've worked out a whole system where we talk about it and you have to eliminate trigger words, trigger gestures, that kind of stuff. But what was funny is my family was the total opposite of pens. We talk loud. We argue loud. Our family loves to fight and it never gets nasty. We just love to fight and yell and scream. And so when I would talk to Penn and she didn't get what I was trying to say, I would slowly or sometimes rapidly get louder and louder and louder because everybody knows if you talk. really loud, maybe even yell, the person will understand exactly what you're trying to And that obviously doesn't work. But what was strange that I eventually realized as I got louder, it wasn't like she was doing it on purpose. Penn would blank out. Penn (48:55) Yeah, I, when people get really loud around me, I just shut them out. Moses (49:00) And she, so when I hit a certain decibel, she never heard the rest of the, no matter how long we argued, she never heard any of it. Penn (49:10) went to my happy change. And it doesn't matter, even if it's fun. Like I just, don't like loudness. Moses (49:20) And so now, if I'm really angry, I'll go, Ben, I am furious at you. No, I'm joking. I would never say that. Penn (49:34) That's okay. ⁓ But yeah, it It has been fun. So yeah, out there, let us know what you guys do. ⁓ And also when you think about your legacy, what does that mean to you? Like I think I'm beginning to really find it fascinating what people think of as a legacy. Moses (49:37) It's Penn (50:01) And so, email us at feedback at aftersight.org. Let us know what you're thinking about when you're thinking about legacy and how do you and your partner deal with moving forward and finding those connections and communications. And yeah, and check us out at aftersite.org. And remember, this week to be kind to yourselves and find a way to be kind to somebody else. It's good for your soul. And that's a wrap. Love you, Mo. Moses (50:41) You