Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Digging Deeper into Greek and Roman Mythology with Professor dr. Peter Struck

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Digging Deeper into Greek and Roman Mythology with Professor dr. Peter Struck · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 67 00:01:36,126 --> 00:01:41,535 [zaza]: struck is professor and chair of the department of classical studies at the university of 68 00:01:41,615 --> 00:01:46,065 [zaza]: pensylvania he received his a b at the university of michu and his m a 69 00:01:46,949 --> 00:01:52,114 [zaza]: and p d from the university of chicago his primary research interests are in the 70 00:01:52,174 --> 00:01:58,345 [zaza]: history of ideas about the construction of meaning with specialties and myth literary criticism and 71 00:01:58,425 --> 00:02:04,114 [zaza]: divination his book birth of the symbol ance readers and the limits of their text 72 00:02:04,470 --> 00:02:05,340 [peter_struck]: yeah 73 00:02:04,595 --> 00:02:10,044 [zaza]: want the c j goodwin award from the american philological association for best book and 74 00:02:10,144 --> 00:02:16,034 [zaza]: classical studies his most recent book is divination human nature a cognitive history of 75 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:17,310 [peter_struck]: yeah 76 00:02:16,214 --> 00:02:22,946 [zaza]: intuition in antiquity for which he also won the good win award he is currently 77 00:02:23,166 --> 00:02:29,086 [zaza]: writing a popular book on mythology for prince university press doctor struck welcome to our 78 00:02:29,226 --> 00:02:29,468 [zaza]: trash 79 00:02:30,413 --> 00:02:31,805 [peter_struck]: thanks very much nice to be here 80 00:02:33,092 --> 00:02:38,761 [zaza]: this conversation is already quite special as well as somewhat so real to me for 81 00:02:38,801 --> 00:02:42,066 [zaza]: a little bit of context you are my professor for a while 82 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:43,106 [peter_struck]: oh 83 00:02:42,728 --> 00:02:47,035 [zaza]: yet this is the very first time meeting or talking to each other which to 84 00:02:47,095 --> 00:02:48,557 [zaza]: our listeners must feel like 85 00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:48,912 [peter_struck]: oh 86 00:02:48,798 --> 00:02:49,719 [zaza]: the riddle of the sphinx 87 00:02:50,010 --> 00:02:50,452 [peter_struck]: oh 88 00:02:50,901 --> 00:02:54,988 [zaza]: which in part is actually a perfect introduction into what we're going to be discussing 89 00:02:55,068 --> 00:03:01,075 [zaza]: today but release the suspense you were teaching an extremely popular greek and roman mythology 90 00:03:01,155 --> 00:03:05,920 [zaza]: course at corcyra which i graduated from exactly ten years ago 91 00:03:06,870 --> 00:03:07,031 [peter_struck]: yeah 92 00:03:07,041 --> 00:03:10,647 [zaza]: cumlaude if i may blow my own trumpet a little bit just to show you 93 00:03:10,687 --> 00:03:15,094 [zaza]: that i was quite serious about it but yeah the course is not only super 94 00:03:15,215 --> 00:03:20,743 [zaza]: interesting and really really cool it's also completely free m so i'm urging anyone who 95 00:03:20,803 --> 00:03:26,274 [zaza]: is the least best least bit interested in mythology to enrol immediately i think i 96 00:03:26,354 --> 00:03:29,420 [zaza]: just checked and i think the course started august twenty second 97 00:03:30,393 --> 00:03:30,594 [peter_struck]: thanks 98 00:03:30,641 --> 00:03:30,949 [zaza]: yes 99 00:03:31,319 --> 00:03:32,265 [peter_struck]: i appreciate the plug 100 00:03:33,101 --> 00:03:39,531 [zaza]: yeah absolute pleasure said thank you for thank you for that professor okay now i'm 101 00:03:39,572 --> 00:03:44,319 [zaza]: finally going to stop talking and start asking because greek mythology really had a huge 102 00:03:44,961 --> 00:03:49,895 [zaza]: formative influence on my imagination and my love for stories and it's really close 103 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:50,640 [peter_struck]: my 104 00:03:49,955 --> 00:03:55,006 [zaza]: to my heart let's start with something a bit more personal out of all the 105 00:03:55,046 --> 00:03:58,227 [zaza]: greek myths which one is your favorite and why 106 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:01,323 [peter_struck]: oh gosh that's a tricky one 107 00:04:01,921 --> 00:04:02,164 [zaza]: yes 108 00:04:02,245 --> 00:04:07,353 [peter_struck]: it's either the honesty or the iliad and it sort of changes depending on what 109 00:04:07,393 --> 00:04:11,019 [peter_struck]: i've read most recently but i'd say probably books nine through twelve of the andes 110 00:04:12,442 --> 00:04:15,333 [zaza]: can you refresh our memories a little bit what is book 111 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:15,620 [peter_struck]: yeah 112 00:04:15,554 --> 00:04:16,558 [zaza]: nine through twelve 113 00:04:16,481 --> 00:04:20,668 [peter_struck]: yeah well the odestly is a very long story with lots of different pieces to 114 00:04:20,769 --> 00:04:21,770 [peter_struck]: it and the 115 00:04:21,691 --> 00:04:22,891 [zaza]: yeah 116 00:04:21,890 --> 00:04:24,996 [peter_struck]: most sort of splashy and exciting things happen in books 117 00:04:25,051 --> 00:04:25,071 [zaza]: m 118 00:04:25,076 --> 00:04:29,443 [peter_struck]: nine through twelve so that's where we get the stories of the siren and the 119 00:04:29,523 --> 00:04:37,336 [peter_struck]: lotus eaters and circe and the cyclops and cilandcaribdis all of them are put into 120 00:04:37,416 --> 00:04:40,041 [peter_struck]: those books this is a sex the epic in 121 00:04:40,051 --> 00:04:40,312 [zaza]: yeah 122 00:04:40,121 --> 00:04:44,648 [peter_struck]: which odysseus sort of takes over the story telling he's been washed up on shore 123 00:04:44,708 --> 00:04:48,375 [peter_struck]: in a far away island that's very exotic and strange and the people are a 124 00:04:48,415 --> 00:04:55,203 [peter_struck]: little different from what he used to seeing um but he spends some time telling 125 00:04:55,263 --> 00:04:58,886 [peter_struck]: them what he's just done so he takes over the epic and in those four 126 00:04:58,986 --> 00:05:02,709 [peter_struck]: books he goes to all the adventures that he had so there's just wonderful 127 00:05:02,421 --> 00:05:04,866 [zaza]: all right so all of the action packed bits 128 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:04,952 [peter_struck]: yeah 129 00:05:05,106 --> 00:05:05,948 [zaza]: are in those 130 00:05:07,050 --> 00:05:07,210 [peter_struck]: yeah 131 00:05:07,111 --> 00:05:07,334 [zaza]: books 132 00:05:07,510 --> 00:05:11,437 [peter_struck]: and when i'm teaching on my students the there sort of an expectation that the 133 00:05:11,497 --> 00:05:14,382 [peter_struck]: whole of the epic is like that because those are the bits the people run 134 00:05:14,462 --> 00:05:21,734 [peter_struck]: into when they hear about the audicy disseas but there's actually pretty um deliberately unfolding 135 00:05:21,481 --> 00:05:21,744 [zaza]: yes 136 00:05:21,914 --> 00:05:23,918 [peter_struck]: books one through eight where 137 00:05:23,941 --> 00:05:24,871 [zaza]: yeah 138 00:05:24,078 --> 00:05:25,841 [peter_struck]: not all that much exciting happens but 139 00:05:25,891 --> 00:05:26,197 [zaza]: oh 140 00:05:26,182 --> 00:05:30,168 [peter_struck]: things do happen and then from books thirteen and forward he's just sort of a 141 00:05:30,248 --> 00:05:33,814 [peter_struck]: hole talking to people he winds up on the island of iffica half way through 142 00:05:33,781 --> 00:05:34,043 [zaza]: oh 143 00:05:33,854 --> 00:05:37,300 [peter_struck]: the book and he's only really halfway home at that point because he's got to 144 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:39,844 [peter_struck]: negotiate all those final challenges to get 145 00:05:39,841 --> 00:05:40,711 [zaza]: yeah 146 00:05:39,924 --> 00:05:42,729 [peter_struck]: from being a washed up beggar 147 00:05:42,781 --> 00:05:43,023 [zaza]: oh 148 00:05:43,050 --> 00:05:44,853 [peter_struck]: that on the shores of his 149 00:05:44,714 --> 00:05:44,876 [zaza]: yes 150 00:05:44,993 --> 00:05:51,043 [peter_struck]: island getting himself into his household and eventually into his inner rooms eventually into his 151 00:05:51,083 --> 00:05:53,026 [peter_struck]: inner chambers eventually into his bedroom 152 00:05:53,341 --> 00:05:53,361 [zaza]: m 153 00:05:53,467 --> 00:05:59,016 [peter_struck]: eventually back into his marital bed with penelope and each of those is great challenge 154 00:05:59,076 --> 00:06:02,162 [peter_struck]: though to work its way through but it's not it doesn't have all the sort 155 00:06:02,202 --> 00:06:06,228 [peter_struck]: of swash buckling adventure that half of the epic as shows up in the left 156 00:06:06,661 --> 00:06:07,831 [zaza]: oh 157 00:06:06,729 --> 00:06:07,843 [peter_struck]: putter of the first half 158 00:06:09,121 --> 00:06:14,009 [zaza]: so everything that we remember from the audicy is actually happening in those books so 159 00:06:14,710 --> 00:06:18,857 [zaza]: like all the action stuff but what happens books one 160 00:06:18,930 --> 00:06:19,154 [peter_struck]: oh 161 00:06:18,937 --> 00:06:20,782 [zaza]: through eight is it also just talking m 162 00:06:21,021 --> 00:06:21,481 [peter_struck]: well yeah 163 00:06:21,582 --> 00:06:21,766 [zaza]: lot 164 00:06:21,742 --> 00:06:27,191 [peter_struck]: one ought one though eight i find fascinating but it takes a little little while 165 00:06:27,271 --> 00:06:29,815 [peter_struck]: to see their charms one through 166 00:06:29,731 --> 00:06:31,381 [zaza]: yeah 167 00:06:29,915 --> 00:06:33,481 [peter_struck]: four we have a really close up story colenacist 168 00:06:32,971 --> 00:06:33,627 [zaza]: yeah 169 00:06:33,962 --> 00:06:37,188 [peter_struck]: trying to figure out what he's going to be doing he's stuck in a household 170 00:06:37,228 --> 00:06:43,538 [peter_struck]: that's been overrun by older more powerful men he tends towards being wine in that 171 00:06:43,578 --> 00:06:44,319 [peter_struck]: kind of a situation 172 00:06:44,791 --> 00:06:45,012 [zaza]: yeah 173 00:06:44,860 --> 00:06:51,171 [peter_struck]: um we i think contemporary readers are are ready to extend their sympathy to him 174 00:06:51,211 --> 00:06:55,759 [peter_struck]: which is perfectly fine but they do lots of explanations well he's without a father 175 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,405 [peter_struck]: in center cetera i think we're sort of used to psychologizing these things and the 176 00:06:59,525 --> 00:07:03,772 [peter_struck]: particular challenges that people face in their lives because of deficits that thin faced we're 177 00:07:03,852 --> 00:07:04,132 [peter_struck]: used to 178 00:07:04,411 --> 00:07:04,657 [zaza]: yes 179 00:07:04,493 --> 00:07:05,855 [peter_struck]: that kind of a process homer 180 00:07:05,671 --> 00:07:06,421 [zaza]: yes 181 00:07:05,875 --> 00:07:09,842 [peter_struck]: doesn't seem to spend any energy being overland and about polemics he kind of takes 182 00:07:09,902 --> 00:07:12,386 [peter_struck]: polemics lot of shape up and grow up and i kind o 183 00:07:12,391 --> 00:07:13,471 [zaza]: yeah 184 00:07:12,466 --> 00:07:15,411 [peter_struck]: move forward after all achilles has 185 00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:15,331 [zaza]: m 186 00:07:15,511 --> 00:07:22,042 [peter_struck]: roughly his age little older but achilles has been off conquering contint for the 187 00:07:22,051 --> 00:07:22,314 [zaza]: oh 188 00:07:22,142 --> 00:07:27,331 [peter_struck]: full decade before and telemicus can't quite figure out his in one foot in front 189 00:07:27,351 --> 00:07:28,052 [peter_struck]: of the other so there's 190 00:07:28,081 --> 00:07:28,405 [zaza]: oh 191 00:07:28,092 --> 00:07:28,994 [peter_struck]: a challenge there 192 00:07:28,831 --> 00:07:29,054 [zaza]: yes 193 00:07:29,054 --> 00:07:33,221 [peter_struck]: that he needs to face and part of that book once for as an education 194 00:07:33,762 --> 00:07:33,822 [peter_struck]: he 195 00:07:33,785 --> 00:07:33,805 [zaza]: i 196 00:07:33,882 --> 00:07:38,930 [peter_struck]: gets taken around to the great men of his father's generation and there then say 197 00:07:38,990 --> 00:07:42,115 [peter_struck]: to him all the time because well something funny is happening in your house what's 198 00:07:42,236 --> 00:07:43,077 [peter_struck]: wrong how come you're 199 00:07:43,122 --> 00:07:43,263 [zaza]: yeah 200 00:07:43,137 --> 00:07:47,024 [peter_struck]: not taking some action he's reminded at each turn during that trip that he should 201 00:07:46,902 --> 00:07:46,983 [zaza]: yes 202 00:07:47,064 --> 00:07:51,752 [peter_struck]: have been angry and not just frightened or frustrated should have been angry about this 203 00:07:51,892 --> 00:07:54,757 [peter_struck]: and he's being sort of educated on that and then 204 00:07:54,631 --> 00:07:54,974 [zaza]: oh 205 00:07:54,837 --> 00:08:00,065 [peter_struck]: in five to eight we meet odysseus finally and we find him mostly on this 206 00:08:00,186 --> 00:08:03,630 [peter_struck]: island in this fire away place with the phenicians 207 00:08:03,841 --> 00:08:04,531 [zaza]: oh 208 00:08:04,111 --> 00:08:08,375 [peter_struck]: the island of scheria and he gets himself settled in there and kind of puts 209 00:08:08,415 --> 00:08:09,475 [peter_struck]: himself back together 210 00:08:10,261 --> 00:08:10,908 [zaza]: oh 211 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:16,142 [peter_struck]: under their shelter and then at the end of eight hells himself reveals himself to 212 00:08:16,222 --> 00:08:19,887 [peter_struck]: be odious beginning of nine and from there he takes over the near and he 213 00:08:19,987 --> 00:08:21,849 [peter_struck]: tells his host what he's been up to 214 00:08:23,461 --> 00:08:28,987 [zaza]: yeah if we go back to the origins yes we have the oral tradition in 215 00:08:29,227 --> 00:08:30,890 [zaza]: ancient greece before 216 00:08:30,939 --> 00:08:30,960 [peter_struck]: m 217 00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:36,199 [zaza]: but if we say that everything really begins with the big daddy homer that you've 218 00:08:36,259 --> 00:08:41,348 [zaza]: mentioned already the disputed author of the audicy and the iliad are we missing anything 219 00:08:41,609 --> 00:08:41,969 [zaza]: crucial 220 00:08:43,180 --> 00:08:47,828 [peter_struck]: well sure i mean you know a world of full knowledge there would be a 221 00:08:47,848 --> 00:08:49,270 [peter_struck]: whole bunch of stuff that we would know 222 00:08:50,341 --> 00:08:50,602 [zaza]: oh 223 00:08:50,372 --> 00:08:55,140 [peter_struck]: but in terms of what's documented in the evidence we have access to homer is 224 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:55,821 [peter_struck]: a good starting 225 00:08:55,831 --> 00:08:56,431 [zaza]: yeah 226 00:08:55,881 --> 00:09:02,512 [peter_struck]: place for a great myth he is the first preserved extended narrative he seed is 227 00:09:02,633 --> 00:09:08,102 [peter_struck]: near by him in time so he's close by not some one that as well 228 00:09:08,182 --> 00:09:12,810 [peter_struck]: known although he said stories are very well known so he's got the coding of 229 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:18,940 [peter_struck]: the rise of zeus and this great struggle between the olympians and the titans the 230 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,728 [peter_struck]: story that he tells in addition to some others um so yeah those are the 231 00:09:23,808 --> 00:09:30,018 [peter_struck]: early parts of the beginning pieces and we don't have evidence for what happened before 232 00:09:30,058 --> 00:09:31,621 [peter_struck]: then there shirley was 233 00:09:31,532 --> 00:09:31,756 [zaza]: it was 234 00:09:32,282 --> 00:09:36,669 [peter_struck]: of this wee can be confident a rich and complex cultural tradition prior to homer 235 00:09:37,531 --> 00:09:40,776 [peter_struck]: which to some extent leads up to an feeds in the homeward to some extent 236 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:46,145 [peter_struck]: starts tributaries that go now or else it could have if there had been someone 237 00:09:46,185 --> 00:09:50,452 [peter_struck]: who took up tradition and moved it in the direction that those prior traditions did 238 00:09:51,173 --> 00:09:56,342 [peter_struck]: so we can be confident that there were lots of stories being told um and 239 00:09:56,583 --> 00:09:59,928 [peter_struck]: the one that we happen to have thank goodness we have one is the one 240 00:09:59,968 --> 00:10:02,412 [peter_struck]: that homer in code and then in 241 00:10:02,521 --> 00:10:03,181 [zaza]: yes 242 00:10:02,633 --> 00:10:08,382 [peter_struck]: later traditions as the tradition grows and expands from there that homer was written down 243 00:10:09,304 --> 00:10:13,611 [peter_struck]: and is really the first extended narrative in the greek material that's written down that 244 00:10:13,891 --> 00:10:18,719 [peter_struck]: anchors his place as a sort of go to touchstone for later retailers of these 245 00:10:19,044 --> 00:10:19,330 [peter_struck]: stories 246 00:10:21,442 --> 00:10:23,325 [zaza]: um is there any sort of consensus now 247 00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:24,180 [peter_struck]: oh 248 00:10:23,685 --> 00:10:26,730 [zaza]: if he wrote both the audicy and the iliad among 249 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:27,008 [peter_struck]: oh 250 00:10:26,891 --> 00:10:32,821 [zaza]: scholars or there's there actually isn't is there a consensus where he lived at all 251 00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:33,882 [peter_struck]: yeah 252 00:10:33,782 --> 00:10:36,717 [zaza]: could you alleviate any of those burdens for us 253 00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:41,117 [peter_struck]: well no i can't really i think that the question has not been sort of 254 00:10:41,518 --> 00:10:43,181 [peter_struck]: necessarily sarihly answered 255 00:10:43,192 --> 00:10:43,354 [zaza]: yeah 256 00:10:43,341 --> 00:10:46,165 [peter_struck]: it's just people sort of got tired of it so 257 00:10:46,531 --> 00:10:46,771 [zaza]: yeah 258 00:10:46,626 --> 00:10:51,034 [peter_struck]: yes there are there's a kind of but of scholarship that grows out of early 259 00:10:51,635 --> 00:10:52,055 [peter_struck]: biblical 260 00:10:52,251 --> 00:10:52,352 [zaza]: oh 261 00:10:52,696 --> 00:10:55,962 [peter_struck]: interpebyblical analysis that 262 00:10:55,921 --> 00:10:56,223 [zaza]: yes 263 00:10:56,262 --> 00:11:01,912 [peter_struck]: emerges in the in the nineteenth century in which scholar is coming from traditions of 264 00:11:02,012 --> 00:11:07,160 [peter_struck]: philology in which classical studies as deeply imbedded turned their attention 265 00:11:06,892 --> 00:11:07,054 [zaza]: yes 266 00:11:07,281 --> 00:11:12,750 [peter_struck]: to the unfolding particularly the first five books of the hebrew bible and look 267 00:11:12,813 --> 00:11:12,833 [zaza]: a 268 00:11:12,830 --> 00:11:13,832 [peter_struck]: inside of there and start to 269 00:11:13,812 --> 00:11:14,035 [zaza]: yeah 270 00:11:13,872 --> 00:11:19,361 [peter_struck]: notice that actually we can identify various narrative strengths and 271 00:11:19,475 --> 00:11:19,495 [zaza]: i 272 00:11:19,681 --> 00:11:23,989 [peter_struck]: five main ones show up and people propose other ones and they had great success 273 00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:28,296 [peter_struck]: there that one consensus that sort of quickly converged on saying yes we have these 274 00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:33,765 [peter_struck]: five distinct narrative voices plus probably some others that are the basis for the for 275 00:11:33,825 --> 00:11:38,172 [peter_struck]: the first five books of the hebrew bible and that's eliminate it's interesting so what 276 00:11:38,212 --> 00:11:42,159 [peter_struck]: we thought of maybe as a unified voice depending on people space commitments actually is 277 00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:45,945 [peter_struck]: boiled down into five different human beings in different contexts with different 278 00:11:46,263 --> 00:11:46,465 [zaza]: okay 279 00:11:46,366 --> 00:11:48,549 [peter_struck]: concerns and interests this 280 00:11:48,463 --> 00:11:48,649 [zaza]: yes 281 00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:50,473 [peter_struck]: cess of that i think got people excited 282 00:11:50,401 --> 00:11:51,361 [zaza]: oh 283 00:11:50,553 --> 00:11:55,241 [peter_struck]: got scholars excited and they turned that same approach towards homer and thought they might 284 00:11:55,183 --> 00:11:55,327 [zaza]: yes 285 00:11:55,261 --> 00:11:58,326 [peter_struck]: be able to start finding different strands and homer and some proposed that they were 286 00:11:58,366 --> 00:12:02,152 [peter_struck]: four strands and homer and some proposed that they were twenty strands and some opltherefortes 287 00:12:02,232 --> 00:12:02,913 [peter_struck]: trans and 288 00:12:02,911 --> 00:12:03,192 [zaza]: oh 289 00:12:02,953 --> 00:12:06,880 [peter_struck]: then eventually it's just sort of oh well who knows how many strands there were 290 00:12:07,882 --> 00:12:10,105 [peter_struck]: and i think that probably now 291 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:10,531 [zaza]: what 292 00:12:10,306 --> 00:12:16,797 [peter_struck]: scold consensus is roughly at the point um yeah we have these wonderful long narrative 293 00:12:16,837 --> 00:12:22,626 [peter_struck]: stories that show a strong editorial voice that may as well be a singular voice 294 00:12:23,267 --> 00:12:28,636 [peter_struck]: that make my might well have been the same singular narrative voice that shaped the 295 00:12:28,561 --> 00:12:28,849 [zaza]: yes 296 00:12:28,716 --> 00:12:29,478 [peter_struck]: final version 297 00:12:29,491 --> 00:12:29,732 [zaza]: yeah 298 00:12:29,578 --> 00:12:30,820 [peter_struck]: of what we now have 299 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:31,021 [zaza]: yeah 300 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,743 [peter_struck]: written down as the atis and the final 301 00:12:32,748 --> 00:12:33,053 [zaza]: yes 302 00:12:32,823 --> 00:12:37,030 [peter_struck]: version of what we now have written down in iliad so you know 303 00:12:36,961 --> 00:12:37,249 [zaza]: yes 304 00:12:37,852 --> 00:12:38,893 [peter_struck]: that's probably 305 00:12:38,461 --> 00:12:38,723 [zaza]: oh 306 00:12:38,974 --> 00:12:43,120 [peter_struck]: about where the question stands and if that sounds a little too mushy for folks 307 00:12:43,201 --> 00:12:49,211 [peter_struck]: i mean you know our urge to identify an author as a single or human 308 00:12:49,291 --> 00:12:52,957 [peter_struck]: being is to some extent a modern one authorship and 309 00:12:53,161 --> 00:12:53,465 [zaza]: yes 310 00:12:53,297 --> 00:12:58,446 [peter_struck]: solitary genius and these kind of things are very last few hundred years those are 311 00:12:58,506 --> 00:13:00,189 [peter_struck]: ideas that we've attached ourselves to 312 00:13:00,286 --> 00:13:00,961 [zaza]: first 313 00:13:01,052 --> 00:13:03,341 [peter_struck]: prior to that the status 314 00:13:03,091 --> 00:13:03,566 [zaza]: oh 315 00:13:03,602 --> 00:13:06,161 [peter_struck]: of the production 316 00:13:06,651 --> 00:13:06,692 [zaza]: me 317 00:13:06,722 --> 00:13:15,637 [peter_struck]: of these large central narrative text yea we invented the figure of homer to start 318 00:13:15,737 --> 00:13:20,244 [peter_struck]: talking about them or at least week inherited and central center of the figure of 319 00:13:20,345 --> 00:13:23,149 [peter_struck]: homer but there's not as much 320 00:13:23,872 --> 00:13:24,074 [zaza]: yes 321 00:13:23,911 --> 00:13:26,916 [peter_struck]: fetishizing of kind of copyright authorship 322 00:13:27,301 --> 00:13:27,961 [zaza]: yes 323 00:13:28,518 --> 00:13:29,159 [peter_struck]: question in 324 00:13:29,221 --> 00:13:30,421 [zaza]: oh 325 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,884 [peter_struck]: equity um just we have this wonderful rich tradition 326 00:13:32,041 --> 00:13:33,661 [zaza]: yes 327 00:13:32,044 --> 00:13:36,572 [peter_struck]: and yeah it's homeward they did it according to the kind of way they settle 328 00:13:36,632 --> 00:13:43,764 [peter_struck]: these questions back that so i don't think that we absolute they have to discover 329 00:13:43,864 --> 00:13:46,208 [peter_struck]: the final end to this question in order to be 330 00:13:46,171 --> 00:13:47,521 [zaza]: yeah 331 00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:53,420 [peter_struck]: fully able to engage in the text in their full way the ancients themselves and 332 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,648 [peter_struck]: about the same position we went in this ametlagard 333 00:13:59,253 --> 00:14:02,919 [zaza]: do we have any idea about how a story becomes a myth 334 00:14:03,652 --> 00:14:03,816 [peter_struck]: yeah 335 00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:08,448 [zaza]: there's probably a lot of skillful story tellers and ancient greece but not every epic 336 00:14:08,588 --> 00:14:12,113 [zaza]: makes it into the collect consciousness that way i'm guessing 337 00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:12,242 [peter_struck]: yeah 338 00:14:12,173 --> 00:14:16,859 [zaza]: it takes more than just a compelling narrative to make the cut it probably has 339 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:17,780 [zaza]: to go a bit deeper 340 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:23,488 [peter_struck]: well i think so and that's actually a really wonderful and ongoing question in the 341 00:14:23,528 --> 00:14:28,596 [peter_struck]: scholarship um and you know one thing i just kind of maybe start with some 342 00:14:28,636 --> 00:14:29,237 [peter_struck]: terminology 343 00:14:28,771 --> 00:14:29,898 [zaza]: my 344 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,726 [peter_struck]: how one way to ask your question i think in the way that you did 345 00:14:34,787 --> 00:14:38,272 [peter_struck]: is is how do we how does a story go from being restored to being 346 00:14:38,292 --> 00:14:43,020 [peter_struck]: a myth another way of asking the question being how do we decide when a 347 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:48,269 [peter_struck]: story gets a label of myth and the label of mist is actually a contemporary 348 00:14:48,409 --> 00:14:52,095 [peter_struck]: one it's in the last two hundred fifty years or so that that term showed 349 00:14:52,216 --> 00:14:59,247 [peter_struck]: started to show up in european languages and it has has prior greek antecedent a 350 00:14:59,388 --> 00:15:04,156 [peter_struck]: perfectly long legacy the term itself muchos reaches all the way back in 351 00:15:04,141 --> 00:15:05,101 [zaza]: yeah 352 00:15:04,176 --> 00:15:10,893 [peter_struck]: the ancient greek but in ancient greek material it various things in homer moedausis basically 353 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:10,861 [zaza]: m 354 00:15:10,953 --> 00:15:12,298 [peter_struck]: anything that comes out of someone's mouth 355 00:15:13,381 --> 00:15:13,582 [zaza]: oh 356 00:15:13,390 --> 00:15:18,879 [peter_struck]: language articulated story or or information that comes from 357 00:15:18,871 --> 00:15:19,173 [zaza]: yes 358 00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:25,070 [peter_struck]: someone their accounts their their version of events there whatever and it doesn't necessarily have 359 00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:30,759 [peter_struck]: anything to do with larger broader cultural stuff later it starts to come pticularinthe philosopher 360 00:15:30,799 --> 00:15:35,527 [peter_struck]: s to mean a story as opposed to the truth and that's an interesting thing 361 00:15:35,627 --> 00:15:40,235 [peter_struck]: so in greek it has very long tradition of being a lie made up fully 362 00:15:40,133 --> 00:15:40,216 [zaza]: no 363 00:15:40,275 --> 00:15:43,741 [peter_struck]: advance as opposed to actual fact and then later 364 00:15:43,672 --> 00:15:43,915 [zaza]: it does 365 00:15:43,881 --> 00:15:44,061 [peter_struck]: on 366 00:15:44,341 --> 00:15:44,625 [zaza]: yeah 367 00:15:44,763 --> 00:15:50,312 [peter_struck]: in the centuries of the hellenistic period to early centuries before common era and afterwards 368 00:15:50,793 --> 00:15:54,839 [peter_struck]: um there's a group of folks that are re interpreting this ancient material and they 369 00:15:54,940 --> 00:15:57,584 [peter_struck]: do call what they're looking at much and 370 00:15:57,841 --> 00:15:58,142 [zaza]: yes 371 00:15:58,285 --> 00:16:01,750 [peter_struck]: and they're looking at the same kind of stuff we're looking at when they're looking 372 00:16:01,810 --> 00:16:07,135 [peter_struck]: at these at these myths so for them it has in later greek history it 373 00:16:07,175 --> 00:16:13,534 [peter_struck]: has a kind of alignment with with what that material is so now there's the 374 00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:19,235 [peter_struck]: question that we can ask is why do we call now we've decided sorry 375 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:19,381 [zaza]: m 376 00:16:19,816 --> 00:16:21,357 [peter_struck]: gettin to my point here we've decided to 377 00:16:21,391 --> 00:16:22,621 [zaza]: oh 378 00:16:21,397 --> 00:16:23,530 [peter_struck]: call certain of these things myths and 379 00:16:23,821 --> 00:16:24,103 [zaza]: yes 380 00:16:24,612 --> 00:16:28,859 [peter_struck]: i'm always i'm a little curious as to why we do that's that's of interest 381 00:16:28,899 --> 00:16:35,410 [peter_struck]: to me and what stories account as it so we have a a 382 00:16:35,401 --> 00:16:36,241 [zaza]: oh 383 00:16:35,510 --> 00:16:39,817 [peter_struck]: bunch of cultural products from deep antiquity thank goodness 384 00:16:39,751 --> 00:16:40,651 [zaza]: oh 385 00:16:40,478 --> 00:16:45,006 [peter_struck]: they're precious and everyone we have help 386 00:16:45,181 --> 00:16:45,325 [zaza]: ye 387 00:16:45,266 --> 00:16:49,052 [peter_struck]: illuminate our understanding of early in life um and 388 00:16:49,016 --> 00:16:49,138 [zaza]: oh 389 00:16:49,814 --> 00:16:50,755 [peter_struck]: we surely know 390 00:16:50,812 --> 00:16:51,035 [zaza]: yes 391 00:16:51,056 --> 00:16:54,021 [peter_struck]: from this that narrative its central 392 00:16:54,421 --> 00:16:54,627 [zaza]: yeah 393 00:16:54,541 --> 00:16:56,405 [peter_struck]: in the way people produce culture 394 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:56,221 [zaza]: m 395 00:16:57,166 --> 00:17:02,094 [peter_struck]: in deep antiquity all the way back which of those narratives are missed and which 396 00:17:02,214 --> 00:17:09,491 [peter_struck]: aren't would be no there would have to be let's say there's no settled 397 00:17:09,832 --> 00:17:09,994 [zaza]: yeah 398 00:17:09,932 --> 00:17:12,635 [peter_struck]: formula to decide which ones count is missing which one's dealt 399 00:17:13,505 --> 00:17:13,645 [zaza]: but 400 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:15,519 [peter_struck]: and folks have sort of different discussions about that 401 00:17:15,501 --> 00:17:21,606 [zaza]: yeah if i may yeah but then how did ancient greeks discern between a gossip 402 00:17:21,986 --> 00:17:25,109 [zaza]: and a culturally significant story such as 403 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:25,241 [peter_struck]: right 404 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:25,750 [zaza]: the 405 00:17:25,701 --> 00:17:29,227 [peter_struck]: so i mean and then we're getting i think probably little closer to the merits 406 00:17:29,267 --> 00:17:30,830 [peter_struck]: of the question which is good you know 407 00:17:30,820 --> 00:17:30,841 [zaza]: m 408 00:17:32,433 --> 00:17:33,555 [peter_struck]: why do certain 409 00:17:33,364 --> 00:17:33,384 [zaza]: i 410 00:17:33,775 --> 00:17:39,086 [peter_struck]: narratives start to take authoritative cultural positions i don't 411 00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:39,285 [zaza]: yeah 412 00:17:39,146 --> 00:17:43,737 [peter_struck]: have a much more complex answer to that than that they speak to the concerns 413 00:17:43,817 --> 00:17:49,407 [peter_struck]: of that culture um and different mythic shapes 414 00:17:49,711 --> 00:17:49,978 [zaza]: yes 415 00:17:49,908 --> 00:17:56,238 [peter_struck]: emerge and different cultural venues the greek materials have their way of doing things they 416 00:17:56,278 --> 00:18:01,327 [peter_struck]: have their concerns they're centrally interested in um and author to author those those concerns 417 00:18:01,567 --> 00:18:04,512 [peter_struck]: very a little bit but we see some certain discernable 418 00:18:04,321 --> 00:18:04,563 [zaza]: yes 419 00:18:04,612 --> 00:18:08,659 [peter_struck]: greek center pieces and we'll see that those are different than the romans when the 420 00:18:08,699 --> 00:18:14,108 [peter_struck]: romans start telling the focusing on different kinds of cultural values so i think this 421 00:18:14,188 --> 00:18:16,292 [peter_struck]: is a sort of center piece of 422 00:18:17,071 --> 00:18:18,170 [zaza]: yeah 423 00:18:17,113 --> 00:18:20,539 [peter_struck]: organizing cultural valuations 424 00:18:20,851 --> 00:18:21,118 [zaza]: yes 425 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,022 [peter_struck]: um through narrative form and it's 426 00:18:24,702 --> 00:18:25,411 [zaza]: fast 427 00:18:25,503 --> 00:18:27,465 [peter_struck]: deals with issues of fundamental 428 00:18:27,121 --> 00:18:27,325 [zaza]: yeah 429 00:18:27,565 --> 00:18:32,009 [peter_struck]: concern to the culture and those issues vary from culture to culture 430 00:18:34,572 --> 00:18:38,419 [zaza]: from your lectures i remember it was ten years ago 431 00:18:39,224 --> 00:18:39,750 [peter_struck]: hm 432 00:18:39,481 --> 00:18:43,026 [zaza]: so i apologize in advance if i'm going to say something completely ridiculous but i 433 00:18:43,107 --> 00:18:43,467 [zaza]: remember 434 00:18:43,170 --> 00:18:43,413 [peter_struck]: uh 435 00:18:43,527 --> 00:18:44,369 [zaza]: that myths 436 00:18:44,709 --> 00:18:44,730 [peter_struck]: h 437 00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:47,554 [zaza]: weren't just all tales that take hold 438 00:18:48,250 --> 00:18:48,411 [peter_struck]: oh 439 00:18:48,315 --> 00:18:50,880 [zaza]: they fulfill certain functions as well i remember 440 00:18:50,730 --> 00:18:51,720 [peter_struck]: yeah 441 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,265 [zaza]: one of them being a way to process a traumatic 442 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:53,921 [peter_struck]: ah 443 00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:55,748 [zaza]: event from the past that 444 00:18:55,860 --> 00:18:56,970 [peter_struck]: oh 445 00:18:55,908 --> 00:19:00,498 [zaza]: mits are kind of me isms for something bad that really happened to then get 446 00:19:00,598 --> 00:19:01,540 [zaza]: kind of sublimated 447 00:19:01,531 --> 00:19:01,814 [peter_struck]: oh 448 00:19:01,941 --> 00:19:05,269 [zaza]: that always struck me as super lightly and plausible somehow 449 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,105 [peter_struck]: yeah no i think so and you know here we start to get to some 450 00:19:09,125 --> 00:19:12,651 [peter_struck]: of the various contemporary views on this there have been i mean 451 00:19:12,767 --> 00:19:13,261 [zaza]: ah 452 00:19:12,851 --> 00:19:16,718 [peter_struck]: if you look back at the intellectual history of the twentieth century i think you 453 00:19:16,838 --> 00:19:20,764 [peter_struck]: could do a lot worse than imagining it has a long series of ideas on 454 00:19:20,825 --> 00:19:25,833 [peter_struck]: myth there there's from you know nita to 455 00:19:25,961 --> 00:19:26,042 [zaza]: he 456 00:19:26,033 --> 00:19:28,257 [peter_struck]: froid to lavystrameaneski 457 00:19:28,741 --> 00:19:28,943 [zaza]: ye 458 00:19:29,138 --> 00:19:33,165 [peter_struck]: early in the pole g that this is a wee in and out of many 459 00:19:33,245 --> 00:19:34,888 [peter_struck]: of the of the important strands 460 00:19:35,132 --> 00:19:36,001 [zaza]: yes 461 00:19:35,689 --> 00:19:41,239 [peter_struck]: of intellectual history in the twentieth century so we have lots of different views that 462 00:19:41,299 --> 00:19:41,799 [peter_struck]: are broad 463 00:19:41,581 --> 00:19:41,743 [zaza]: ye 464 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,506 [peter_struck]: so miss how they function how they work and if we 465 00:19:45,541 --> 00:19:45,907 [zaza]: oh 466 00:19:45,586 --> 00:19:48,350 [peter_struck]: ask someone like now an oski brandis alan 467 00:19:48,361 --> 00:19:48,670 [zaza]: oh 468 00:19:48,431 --> 00:19:54,000 [peter_struck]: owskiodates are eighteen four in nineteen forty two what he thought this was well but 469 00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:57,124 [peter_struck]: the school that later gets called functionalism in which he 470 00:19:57,214 --> 00:19:57,400 [zaza]: yes 471 00:19:57,244 --> 00:19:58,626 [peter_struck]: claimed that myths are there 472 00:19:58,401 --> 00:19:58,522 [zaza]: oh 473 00:19:59,507 --> 00:20:05,706 [peter_struck]: in order to legitimize social and cultural forms so from alanoskythe important thing was a 474 00:20:05,786 --> 00:20:07,669 [peter_struck]: myth was a legitimization machine 475 00:20:07,801 --> 00:20:07,963 [zaza]: yes 476 00:20:08,311 --> 00:20:11,876 [peter_struck]: so our culture just decides to do things in a certain way we 477 00:20:11,890 --> 00:20:11,911 [zaza]: m 478 00:20:12,377 --> 00:20:13,399 [peter_struck]: eat this plant 479 00:20:13,471 --> 00:20:14,495 [zaza]: yet 480 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,307 [peter_struck]: never that plant or this kind of meat but never that kind of meat well 481 00:20:18,367 --> 00:20:22,975 [peter_struck]: why is that well the myths are going to legitimize whatever cultural form we decide 482 00:20:23,656 --> 00:20:28,424 [peter_struck]: or we've got certain ways of organizing relations ships are certain ways of doing our 483 00:20:29,566 --> 00:20:33,793 [peter_struck]: organizing of sex and reproduction and sex that's okay and not okay 484 00:20:33,592 --> 00:20:33,673 [zaza]: ah 485 00:20:34,414 --> 00:20:40,144 [peter_struck]: and miss is there to make us feel good the cultural choices we made but 486 00:20:40,184 --> 00:20:42,027 [peter_struck]: then there'll be someone else like froid for example 487 00:20:41,731 --> 00:20:41,957 [zaza]: ye 488 00:20:42,127 --> 00:20:44,671 [peter_struck]: who will claim that in psycho analysis in 489 00:20:44,701 --> 00:20:45,208 [zaza]: oh 490 00:20:44,751 --> 00:20:46,294 [peter_struck]: his book on the interpretation of dreams 491 00:20:46,501 --> 00:20:46,762 [zaza]: yes 492 00:20:46,695 --> 00:20:51,102 [peter_struck]: wonderful work on myth in addition to dreams um where 493 00:20:51,091 --> 00:20:51,315 [zaza]: oh 494 00:20:51,623 --> 00:20:56,511 [peter_struck]: froid claims that just like dreams 495 00:20:56,734 --> 00:20:56,920 [zaza]: right 496 00:20:57,332 --> 00:21:02,281 [peter_struck]: are there in order to fulfill the wish of 497 00:21:02,332 --> 00:21:02,555 [zaza]: yes 498 00:21:02,521 --> 00:21:03,623 [peter_struck]: an individual dreamer 499 00:21:04,123 --> 00:21:04,225 [zaza]: ah 500 00:21:04,184 --> 00:21:06,568 [peter_struck]: so also myths are there in order 501 00:21:06,561 --> 00:21:06,722 [zaza]: oh 502 00:21:06,628 --> 00:21:11,856 [peter_struck]: to fulfil the wish of an individual culture so myths are like the dreams but 503 00:21:11,977 --> 00:21:15,762 [peter_struck]: of an entire culture and these myths do according to froid is to 504 00:21:15,745 --> 00:21:15,929 [zaza]: yeah 505 00:21:15,902 --> 00:21:16,403 [peter_struck]: allow us 506 00:21:16,883 --> 00:21:17,085 [zaza]: yes 507 00:21:17,243 --> 00:21:20,667 [peter_struck]: to indulge in otherwise socially prohibited 508 00:21:20,510 --> 00:21:20,530 [zaza]: i 509 00:21:21,288 --> 00:21:25,905 [peter_struck]: on stuff we have a whole bunch of civilization that's filling up no can't do 510 00:21:25,965 --> 00:21:30,433 [peter_struck]: that can't do that much of it having to do with food and sex and 511 00:21:30,653 --> 00:21:35,942 [peter_struck]: basic social behaviors and how we organize our society well cording to froid opens up 512 00:21:36,022 --> 00:21:41,231 [peter_struck]: a space that lets us indulge in all that stuff that's prohibited and that's its 513 00:21:41,331 --> 00:21:44,496 [peter_struck]: thrill and it's excitement according to him and there are 514 00:21:44,531 --> 00:21:44,733 [zaza]: yes 515 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:50,771 [peter_struck]: many other is he thought that that pushed those through but maybe functionalsm strut and 516 00:21:51,052 --> 00:21:53,538 [peter_struck]: psychonalysis are enough to kind of get started on those questions 517 00:21:55,151 --> 00:22:01,134 [zaza]: um but then when what's the separation between religion mythology than in 518 00:22:01,242 --> 00:22:02,160 [peter_struck]: kay 519 00:22:01,496 --> 00:22:05,289 [zaza]: for example you inlegitimizing certain social practices 520 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:06,101 [peter_struck]: yeah 521 00:22:06,202 --> 00:22:11,599 [zaza]: it seems like where the two overlap or i mean the line seems quite fine 522 00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:17,775 [peter_struck]: well i think they do overlap and typically when when scholars of religion describe religion 523 00:22:17,975 --> 00:22:24,002 [peter_struck]: there's a standard definition of religion as being myth and ritual together um and in 524 00:22:24,042 --> 00:22:25,104 [peter_struck]: that formulation 525 00:22:24,952 --> 00:22:24,973 [zaza]: a 526 00:22:26,105 --> 00:22:27,127 [peter_struck]: the miss is the narrative 527 00:22:27,112 --> 00:22:27,213 [zaza]: ah 528 00:22:27,167 --> 00:22:28,710 [peter_struck]: stories and 529 00:22:29,041 --> 00:22:29,162 [zaza]: ye 530 00:22:29,251 --> 00:22:30,212 [peter_struck]: ritual is 531 00:22:30,022 --> 00:22:30,184 [zaza]: yes 532 00:22:30,373 --> 00:22:33,418 [peter_struck]: the physical behaviors 533 00:22:33,602 --> 00:22:33,642 [zaza]: a 534 00:22:33,818 --> 00:22:37,685 [peter_struck]: of the people in gay gin i also add as a difference between myth and 535 00:22:37,825 --> 00:22:42,092 [peter_struck]: religion that it's not just ritual that's there in religion but also typically faith commitments 536 00:22:42,473 --> 00:22:49,444 [peter_struck]: of one kind or another so some theological grounding for uh uh commitment to the 537 00:22:50,526 --> 00:22:58,379 [peter_struck]: final shape of the new world ultimate being or set of beings in mish again 538 00:22:58,620 --> 00:23:00,162 [peter_struck]: is the category that we've created and 539 00:23:00,158 --> 00:23:00,179 [zaza]: i 540 00:23:00,222 --> 00:23:04,529 [peter_struck]: we created it out two under fifty years ago and the way it's typically used 541 00:23:04,610 --> 00:23:05,792 [peter_struck]: and i don't see a 542 00:23:05,792 --> 00:23:05,833 [zaza]: a 543 00:23:05,832 --> 00:23:07,234 [peter_struck]: reason to push against this 544 00:23:07,291 --> 00:23:07,476 [zaza]: yes 545 00:23:07,855 --> 00:23:08,877 [peter_struck]: myth doesn't require 546 00:23:08,493 --> 00:23:08,657 [zaza]: yes 547 00:23:08,957 --> 00:23:12,242 [peter_struck]: a faith commitment it's a story that 548 00:23:12,181 --> 00:23:12,462 [zaza]: yeah 549 00:23:12,563 --> 00:23:17,030 [peter_struck]: in that sense would answer to what religion does so in the sense that it's 550 00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:24,367 [peter_struck]: a narrative but it's doing what it's doing in respective fate commitments to some broader 551 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,285 [peter_struck]: stuff divinity 552 00:23:26,921 --> 00:23:30,928 [zaza]: okay so this is a distinction that we're making now but to ancient greeks that 553 00:23:31,008 --> 00:23:31,609 [zaza]: wasn't that clear 554 00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:32,360 [peter_struck]: no 555 00:23:32,691 --> 00:23:32,833 [zaza]: right 556 00:23:32,881 --> 00:23:34,143 [peter_struck]: in fact it wouldn't have existed 557 00:23:34,873 --> 00:23:35,014 [zaza]: yeah 558 00:23:35,245 --> 00:23:39,532 [peter_struck]: there's for them number one what i'm calling a face commitment would be sort of 559 00:23:39,612 --> 00:23:39,993 [peter_struck]: absurd 560 00:23:39,961 --> 00:23:41,251 [zaza]: yeah 561 00:23:40,273 --> 00:23:44,460 [peter_struck]: if they're not they're just they're observing the gods as if they're observing ts of 562 00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:48,727 [peter_struck]: nature i mean they're just around the gods are just there and only sort of 563 00:23:48,807 --> 00:23:50,270 [peter_struck]: insane person would think that they weren't 564 00:23:50,621 --> 00:23:50,823 [zaza]: okay 565 00:23:51,492 --> 00:23:53,395 [peter_struck]: and yeah and we know that they're 566 00:23:53,401 --> 00:23:53,663 [zaza]: oh 567 00:23:53,435 --> 00:23:55,398 [peter_struck]: there because they pay mess with us sometimes 568 00:23:55,861 --> 00:23:56,144 [zaza]: yes 569 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,594 [peter_struck]: and we try to keep them happy through our rituals that's what the greeks would 570 00:23:59,614 --> 00:24:00,217 [peter_struck]: imagine that self 571 00:24:00,291 --> 00:24:00,331 [zaza]: i 572 00:24:00,317 --> 00:24:00,498 [peter_struck]: doing 573 00:24:00,391 --> 00:24:05,523 [zaza]: mean but how literally did ancient greeks understand these what we call the myths today 574 00:24:05,964 --> 00:24:10,614 [zaza]: and the characters in them on one hand like achilles and hector for example seem 575 00:24:10,674 --> 00:24:14,580 [zaza]: like they could have very well be based on some real warriors from the past 576 00:24:15,121 --> 00:24:16,043 [zaza]: on the other hand you could 577 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:16,590 [peter_struck]: yeah 578 00:24:16,103 --> 00:24:20,530 [zaza]: simply climb on top of mount olympus and see that there are no gods living 579 00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:23,281 [zaza]: there right like 580 00:24:23,481 --> 00:24:23,662 [peter_struck]: right 581 00:24:23,862 --> 00:24:24,062 [zaza]: also 582 00:24:24,064 --> 00:24:24,225 [peter_struck]: right 583 00:24:24,342 --> 00:24:25,443 [zaza]: yeah also 584 00:24:25,462 --> 00:24:25,605 [peter_struck]: right 585 00:24:25,523 --> 00:24:29,307 [zaza]: like the school of skepticism was kind of born in 586 00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:29,390 [peter_struck]: m 587 00:24:29,387 --> 00:24:30,928 [zaza]: ancient greece right so 588 00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:31,136 [peter_struck]: sure 589 00:24:31,849 --> 00:24:32,870 [zaza]: how did they deal with that 590 00:24:33,781 --> 00:24:40,171 [peter_struck]: well one of the earliest comments we have on homer from par called zenophenis prestcratic 591 00:24:40,231 --> 00:24:46,402 [peter_struck]: philosopher one of the earliest comments we have on homer probably six century b c 592 00:24:46,803 --> 00:24:49,307 [peter_struck]: is he's saying those gods that 593 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:49,381 [zaza]: m 594 00:24:49,367 --> 00:24:55,717 [peter_struck]: humans make up are just made up according to their own anthropomorphic views and 595 00:24:55,984 --> 00:24:56,148 [zaza]: yeah 596 00:24:55,998 --> 00:25:00,285 [peter_struck]: if yes you know animals made up gods they make up gods that look like 597 00:25:00,405 --> 00:25:05,874 [peter_struck]: animals so that we have absolutely well attested and we don't have any reason to 598 00:25:05,914 --> 00:25:10,121 [peter_struck]: think that it's brand new that kind of skepticism probably was around to the earliest 599 00:25:10,181 --> 00:25:15,310 [peter_struck]: it could have been around prior to senopogies and surely by the fifth and fourth 600 00:25:15,241 --> 00:25:15,261 [zaza]: o 601 00:25:15,410 --> 00:25:16,772 [peter_struck]: centuries before the common era 602 00:25:16,681 --> 00:25:16,903 [zaza]: oh 603 00:25:17,434 --> 00:25:21,440 [peter_struck]: the philosophers are just you know homer does what homer does and that people are 604 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,345 [peter_struck]: made up and then in the meantime we philosophers are trying to figure out the 605 00:25:24,306 --> 00:25:24,430 [zaza]: as 606 00:25:24,385 --> 00:25:30,555 [peter_struck]: way the world really is so yeah there's not a sort of slavish 607 00:25:30,972 --> 00:25:31,194 [zaza]: yes 608 00:25:31,797 --> 00:25:34,462 [peter_struck]: embrace or highly pelieve 609 00:25:34,022 --> 00:25:34,711 [zaza]: yet 610 00:25:36,465 --> 00:25:41,894 [peter_struck]: embrace of views that homer had and one must believe those that's just not part 611 00:25:41,934 --> 00:25:42,415 [peter_struck]: of the picture 612 00:25:42,801 --> 00:25:42,982 [zaza]: yeah 613 00:25:43,337 --> 00:25:46,923 [peter_struck]: there's a variety of religious 614 00:25:46,723 --> 00:25:46,743 [zaza]: i 615 00:25:47,003 --> 00:25:52,813 [peter_struck]: expressions homer would be included in that because he's talking about our gods um and 616 00:25:52,973 --> 00:25:56,979 [peter_struck]: then there's also the local cults that we engage in so we have an apollo 617 00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:59,303 [peter_struck]: let's say that's our local divinity and we do 618 00:25:59,351 --> 00:25:59,572 [zaza]: this 619 00:25:59,404 --> 00:26:03,570 [peter_struck]: certain rituals for certain times and he likes certain things and doesn't like other things 620 00:26:03,631 --> 00:26:04,091 [peter_struck]: and you know that 621 00:26:04,051 --> 00:26:04,298 [zaza]: oh 622 00:26:04,131 --> 00:26:06,676 [peter_struck]: from our traditions and our city's apollo 623 00:26:06,601 --> 00:26:08,161 [zaza]: oh 624 00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:09,400 [peter_struck]: is probably going to be a little different from the god down to the role 625 00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:13,287 [peter_struck]: that they also call apollo but their apollo does a little bit different things and 626 00:26:13,327 --> 00:26:17,474 [peter_struck]: then there's homer's apllo the literary apollo and all these traditions kind of moth and 627 00:26:17,614 --> 00:26:19,918 [peter_struck]: flow in and out of each other such that 628 00:26:19,870 --> 00:26:19,891 [zaza]: m 629 00:26:19,938 --> 00:26:24,626 [peter_struck]: there's an apollo around and we all it would just be for them kind of 630 00:26:24,706 --> 00:26:29,394 [peter_struck]: silly not to think that there was an apollo of course there is what exactly 631 00:26:29,434 --> 00:26:31,799 [peter_struck]: that apollo is all about well that is another question 632 00:26:33,231 --> 00:26:38,220 [zaza]: so if you got a bit boozed let's say in ancient athens five b c 633 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:42,106 [zaza]: or something and you re screaming on the streets there is no zoos there is 634 00:26:42,166 --> 00:26:47,081 [zaza]: no apollo it's all a figment of it your imagination you wouldn't get into any 635 00:26:47,624 --> 00:26:48,407 [zaza]: sort of trouble would you 636 00:26:49,851 --> 00:26:54,379 [peter_struck]: no and i'll put one small as risk there if you were someone who is 637 00:26:54,499 --> 00:26:56,362 [peter_struck]: already annoying authorities because 638 00:26:56,431 --> 00:26:56,873 [zaza]: oh 639 00:26:56,462 --> 00:26:59,627 [peter_struck]: of the kinds of questions you tended to ask them and i'm thinking here of 640 00:26:59,687 --> 00:27:00,589 [peter_struck]: the figure of socrates 641 00:27:00,751 --> 00:27:01,411 [zaza]: yeah 642 00:27:01,090 --> 00:27:05,577 [peter_struck]: then they may well decide to say that the kind of views you have about 643 00:27:05,617 --> 00:27:06,499 [peter_struck]: the gods are 644 00:27:06,702 --> 00:27:06,823 [zaza]: oh 645 00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:10,045 [peter_struck]: antithetical to the interests of the city that that 646 00:27:09,972 --> 00:27:10,073 [zaza]: the 647 00:27:10,145 --> 00:27:13,851 [peter_struck]: happened to socrates in a unforgettable 648 00:27:14,071 --> 00:27:14,941 [zaza]: yeah 649 00:27:14,592 --> 00:27:16,536 [peter_struck]: hum and very prominent way so 650 00:27:16,591 --> 00:27:17,136 [zaza]: yeah 651 00:27:16,856 --> 00:27:19,080 [peter_struck]: we can't say that it was these 652 00:27:18,961 --> 00:27:19,591 [zaza]: oh 653 00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:23,707 [peter_struck]: lines were never enforced but mostly we don't have first of all we 654 00:27:23,674 --> 00:27:23,735 [zaza]: go 655 00:27:23,748 --> 00:27:29,484 [peter_struck]: don't have any authoritative text so it's not as though a person can point to 656 00:27:29,745 --> 00:27:37,157 [peter_struck]: x and y and z doctrine that now you've somehow insulted that doesn't really happen 657 00:27:37,438 --> 00:27:38,199 [peter_struck]: we've got traditions 658 00:27:38,093 --> 00:27:38,114 [zaza]: a 659 00:27:38,259 --> 00:27:43,327 [peter_struck]: and not be following the tradition now that that again that's annoying and it's annoying 660 00:27:43,347 --> 00:27:47,434 [peter_struck]: to the city and it's partly because it's a anti social behavior why wouldn't 661 00:27:47,311 --> 00:27:47,511 [zaza]: yeah 662 00:27:47,534 --> 00:27:50,479 [peter_struck]: you have an ice cream at our ice cream social you know 663 00:27:50,581 --> 00:27:50,744 [zaza]: yeah 664 00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:52,042 [peter_struck]: i mean come on we're having an 665 00:27:52,081 --> 00:27:52,261 [zaza]: oh 666 00:27:52,102 --> 00:27:52,403 [peter_struck]: ice cream 667 00:27:52,442 --> 00:27:52,462 [zaza]: h 668 00:27:52,463 --> 00:27:55,508 [peter_struck]: social why don't you have an ice cream and if you walk around and say 669 00:27:55,528 --> 00:28:00,055 [peter_struck]: well i don't believe in ice cream you know that's just like why would you 670 00:28:00,115 --> 00:28:00,496 [peter_struck]: bother 671 00:28:00,751 --> 00:28:01,921 [zaza]: yeah 672 00:28:00,877 --> 00:28:04,923 [peter_struck]: saying that and you're just you're really big ning and it's an anti social i 673 00:28:05,004 --> 00:28:09,711 [peter_struck]: think gesture that that is the most concerning thing for the civic authorities to keep 674 00:28:09,771 --> 00:28:10,994 [peter_struck]: an eye out and again it's not 675 00:28:11,024 --> 00:28:11,105 [zaza]: as 676 00:28:11,054 --> 00:28:15,962 [peter_struck]: as though we have long traditions of folks do this in antiquity got this famous 677 00:28:16,002 --> 00:28:18,987 [peter_struck]: case of socrates and that's a lot else of 678 00:28:19,111 --> 00:28:19,414 [zaza]: yes 679 00:28:19,207 --> 00:28:23,755 [peter_struck]: people running a fall of the authorities because their gods look a little different than 680 00:28:23,835 --> 00:28:25,699 [peter_struck]: the than the traditional gods of the city 681 00:28:27,302 --> 00:28:28,564 [zaza]: speaking of the gods the 682 00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:29,310 [peter_struck]: yeah 683 00:28:28,644 --> 00:28:32,891 [zaza]: olympians must be one if not the most disfunctional family in the 684 00:28:32,910 --> 00:28:33,314 [peter_struck]: uh 685 00:28:32,951 --> 00:28:34,894 [zaza]: history of fiction and i love them 686 00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:35,610 [peter_struck]: uh yeah 687 00:28:35,015 --> 00:28:35,335 [zaza]: for it 688 00:28:35,940 --> 00:28:38,100 [peter_struck]: yeah 689 00:28:36,217 --> 00:28:42,029 [zaza]: but there's just like constant betrayal the men now there's revenge there's lust and vanity 690 00:28:42,349 --> 00:28:46,299 [zaza]: and pettiness i mean the whole thing basically starts with zeus 691 00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:47,306 [peter_struck]: i forget incest 692 00:28:48,171 --> 00:28:49,753 [zaza]: incest of course yes yes 693 00:28:49,641 --> 00:28:50,532 [peter_struck]: of course you have 694 00:28:51,877 --> 00:28:56,925 [zaza]: the whole thing starts with zeus castrating his children devouring father right in some 695 00:28:56,801 --> 00:28:56,925 [peter_struck]: yeah 696 00:28:56,985 --> 00:28:58,989 [zaza]: versions at least why are 697 00:28:59,010 --> 00:28:59,132 [peter_struck]: it's 698 00:28:59,069 --> 00:28:59,269 [zaza]: greek 699 00:28:59,234 --> 00:28:59,558 [peter_struck]: actually 700 00:28:59,369 --> 00:28:59,670 [zaza]: gods 701 00:28:59,599 --> 00:28:59,761 [peter_struck]: yeah 702 00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:02,353 [zaza]: more human than humans i mean seems 703 00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:03,900 [peter_struck]: oh 704 00:29:02,493 --> 00:29:07,038 [zaza]: like such a far cry from the monotheistic conceptions of the divine that 705 00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:07,260 [peter_struck]: yes 706 00:29:07,098 --> 00:29:07,799 [zaza]: are so normal 707 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:07,701 [peter_struck]: yes 708 00:29:08,059 --> 00:29:08,620 [zaza]: to us today 709 00:29:08,662 --> 00:29:12,869 [peter_struck]: well and just a little footnote that it's cronos that does the severing of the 710 00:29:12,909 --> 00:29:14,813 [peter_struck]: genitals or in else so it's 711 00:29:14,942 --> 00:29:15,144 [zaza]: yes 712 00:29:15,093 --> 00:29:21,132 [peter_struck]: zsseahzos's father who is that who castrator um but yes 713 00:29:21,102 --> 00:29:21,403 [zaza]: i read 714 00:29:21,334 --> 00:29:21,394 [peter_struck]: so 715 00:29:21,463 --> 00:29:21,744 [zaza]: somewhere 716 00:29:21,474 --> 00:29:21,676 [peter_struck]: we have 717 00:29:21,784 --> 00:29:25,134 [zaza]: though that zeus does the same thing to his father then but maybe 718 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:25,360 [peter_struck]: there's 719 00:29:25,174 --> 00:29:25,374 [zaza]: that's 720 00:29:25,420 --> 00:29:25,440 [peter_struck]: a 721 00:29:25,435 --> 00:29:25,555 [zaza]: not 722 00:29:25,521 --> 00:29:26,081 [peter_struck]: later there's 723 00:29:25,936 --> 00:29:26,979 [zaza]: maybe that's apacrypal 724 00:29:26,442 --> 00:29:32,112 [peter_struck]: the are later traditions there later traditions orphic material that continue the castration theme into 725 00:29:32,192 --> 00:29:32,372 [peter_struck]: later 726 00:29:32,274 --> 00:29:32,455 [zaza]: okay 727 00:29:32,432 --> 00:29:33,674 [peter_struck]: generation so it could be in the 728 00:29:33,701 --> 00:29:33,821 [zaza]: yeah 729 00:29:33,714 --> 00:29:34,696 [peter_struck]: gorfic material that's 730 00:29:34,565 --> 00:29:34,685 [zaza]: all 731 00:29:34,736 --> 00:29:34,996 [peter_struck]: showing 732 00:29:34,745 --> 00:29:34,906 [zaza]: right 733 00:29:35,056 --> 00:29:35,738 [peter_struck]: up but 734 00:29:35,921 --> 00:29:36,041 [zaza]: yeah 735 00:29:36,419 --> 00:29:39,964 [peter_struck]: yeah gods are just out there and 736 00:29:40,471 --> 00:29:40,672 [zaza]: oh 737 00:29:40,645 --> 00:29:46,694 [peter_struck]: the you know the i just kind of starting from the theological position that if 738 00:29:46,774 --> 00:29:47,636 [peter_struck]: a per person 739 00:29:47,461 --> 00:29:47,684 [zaza]: oh 740 00:29:47,696 --> 00:29:51,783 [peter_struck]: runs into these and ask themselves how in the world could they have thought that 741 00:29:51,823 --> 00:29:52,203 [peter_struck]: the gods 742 00:29:52,051 --> 00:29:53,251 [zaza]: yeah 743 00:29:52,243 --> 00:29:54,527 [peter_struck]: aren't like that isn't that he would 744 00:29:54,392 --> 00:29:54,473 [zaza]: ah 745 00:29:54,587 --> 00:29:59,115 [peter_struck]: that be troubling to pose and they're god like that well that's exactly the kind 746 00:29:59,155 --> 00:30:06,988 [peter_struck]: of criticism among others that plato has of this famous philosopher in fourth and fifth 747 00:30:07,068 --> 00:30:11,195 [peter_struck]: centuries or the common era plato is reading homer and he says what are you 748 00:30:11,736 --> 00:30:15,843 [peter_struck]: portraying the god this way it's just anasthetical to what we think a good society 749 00:30:15,903 --> 00:30:16,003 [peter_struck]: ought 750 00:30:15,961 --> 00:30:16,182 [zaza]: oh 751 00:30:16,043 --> 00:30:19,809 [peter_struck]: to be and for him there is a problem that when people read stories like 752 00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:23,115 [peter_struck]: um they would give themselves a pass 753 00:30:23,272 --> 00:30:23,434 [zaza]: yeah 754 00:30:23,656 --> 00:30:27,162 [peter_struck]: on all the behaviors that the gods do by saying well yeah i could commit 755 00:30:27,242 --> 00:30:29,786 [peter_struck]: insest or castrate my father well look at god did it 756 00:30:29,731 --> 00:30:30,901 [zaza]: yeah 757 00:30:29,846 --> 00:30:31,329 [peter_struck]: so it seems like it would be okay 758 00:30:31,261 --> 00:30:32,385 [zaza]: uh 759 00:30:31,429 --> 00:30:36,978 [peter_struck]: for me um so you know being ready to criticize them for that kind of 760 00:30:37,038 --> 00:30:43,869 [peter_struck]: organization of their understanding of divinity is a very old theme and sure it makes 761 00:30:43,950 --> 00:30:48,477 [peter_struck]: erfect sense one thing i sort of tossed out when i'm teaching the class sure 762 00:30:48,557 --> 00:30:52,624 [peter_struck]: let's go ahead and start from a kind of perfect world and imagine a kind 763 00:30:52,471 --> 00:30:53,071 [zaza]: yeah 764 00:30:52,684 --> 00:30:58,935 [peter_struck]: of very familiar situation say this in a modern context in which you have a 765 00:30:58,995 --> 00:31:00,477 [peter_struck]: divinity it's all good 766 00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:00,481 [zaza]: m 767 00:31:01,118 --> 00:31:01,639 [peter_struck]: all knowing 768 00:31:01,696 --> 00:31:01,779 [zaza]: ah 769 00:31:01,699 --> 00:31:04,664 [peter_struck]: and all powerful and all of that seems like kind of nice like you want 770 00:31:04,704 --> 00:31:07,168 [peter_struck]: your divinities to be like that's great but 771 00:31:07,501 --> 00:31:08,311 [zaza]: oh 772 00:31:07,709 --> 00:31:12,798 [peter_struck]: then you do have a problem at that point is the problem of evil and 773 00:31:12,998 --> 00:31:19,288 [peter_struck]: the problem of evil or theodsy i see why the sy is it 774 00:31:19,493 --> 00:31:19,635 [zaza]: this 775 00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:19,829 [peter_struck]: real 776 00:31:19,696 --> 00:31:19,858 [zaza]: is a 777 00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:26,631 [peter_struck]: important and interesting one and it's not been lost on those tant and powerful face 778 00:31:26,671 --> 00:31:32,521 [peter_struck]: commitments for millennia to try to solve this one but it hasn't been solved to 779 00:31:32,601 --> 00:31:37,890 [peter_struck]: anyone's final satisfaction partly because of the just prime of facial problem if you've 780 00:31:37,808 --> 00:31:37,829 [zaza]: a 781 00:31:37,950 --> 00:31:41,716 [peter_struck]: got it all good all knowing all powerful divinity it should know when bad stuff 782 00:31:41,777 --> 00:31:44,822 [peter_struck]: is happening you should want to correct it because it's all good and it really 783 00:31:44,862 --> 00:31:45,823 [peter_struck]: has the power to do that 784 00:31:45,831 --> 00:31:45,973 [zaza]: oh 785 00:31:46,545 --> 00:31:49,409 [peter_struck]: um and again there'll be pat answers that 786 00:31:49,471 --> 00:31:49,799 [zaza]: yes 787 00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:53,855 [peter_struck]: well trot out to make sure that they can preserve their view of if you 788 00:31:53,935 --> 00:31:58,220 [peter_struck]: have a view of the divinities that's more like the olympians you don't have that 789 00:31:58,261 --> 00:31:58,561 [peter_struck]: problem 790 00:31:58,585 --> 00:31:58,771 [zaza]: yes 791 00:32:00,204 --> 00:32:06,594 [peter_struck]: um yeah the world is off and doing its thing and like the gods 792 00:32:06,181 --> 00:32:06,284 [zaza]: ye 793 00:32:06,855 --> 00:32:06,935 [peter_struck]: we 794 00:32:06,871 --> 00:32:07,261 [zaza]: oh 795 00:32:07,115 --> 00:32:07,776 [peter_struck]: are doing 796 00:32:07,591 --> 00:32:07,797 [zaza]: yes 797 00:32:07,856 --> 00:32:15,008 [peter_struck]: our best in a world that's grinding away toward whatever next step it's grinding toward 798 00:32:16,110 --> 00:32:19,856 [peter_struck]: and sometimes you get caught up in the gears of that grinding in the world 799 00:32:20,918 --> 00:32:23,683 [peter_struck]: and when you do you can imagine what role the 800 00:32:23,641 --> 00:32:24,751 [zaza]: yeah 801 00:32:23,723 --> 00:32:24,745 [peter_struck]: divinities are playing in it 802 00:32:24,991 --> 00:32:25,094 [zaza]: ye 803 00:32:25,386 --> 00:32:29,432 [peter_struck]: why did i escape the grinding of the wheels and not someone else you've got 804 00:32:29,513 --> 00:32:30,254 [peter_struck]: ways of building 805 00:32:29,954 --> 00:32:30,116 [zaza]: yes 806 00:32:30,314 --> 00:32:34,200 [peter_struck]: in an answer to that question in a way that i think you're without resources 807 00:32:34,942 --> 00:32:39,950 [peter_struck]: if you think you have a sort of perfect good god so i think the 808 00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:45,419 [peter_struck]: explanatory power of having full of just basic human experience the explanatory power for having 809 00:32:45,459 --> 00:32:48,043 [peter_struck]: god that have rough edges that have passions 810 00:32:48,061 --> 00:32:48,386 [zaza]: oh 811 00:32:48,124 --> 00:32:49,566 [peter_struck]: that have that are distractable 812 00:32:49,695 --> 00:32:49,716 [zaza]: i 813 00:32:50,187 --> 00:32:55,676 [peter_struck]: that are vengeful the explanatory power of that is pretty clear and i wouldn't want 814 00:32:55,696 --> 00:32:56,898 [peter_struck]: to to i think if we 815 00:32:56,953 --> 00:32:57,034 [zaza]: ah 816 00:32:56,978 --> 00:33:01,064 [peter_struck]: lose sight of that and then these guys just become a complete puzzle and i 817 00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:04,889 [peter_struck]: wouldn't i think that that's a that's a that's a missed opportunity for understanding 818 00:33:06,802 --> 00:33:13,285 [zaza]: if we break down their divine status a little bit and like comic book terms 819 00:33:13,446 --> 00:33:13,907 [zaza]: let's put it 820 00:33:14,030 --> 00:33:14,172 [peter_struck]: yeah 821 00:33:14,791 --> 00:33:19,163 [zaza]: how powerful was you know your your greek god usually they 822 00:33:19,140 --> 00:33:19,341 [peter_struck]: yeah 823 00:33:19,223 --> 00:33:21,146 [zaza]: weren't one present right they were 824 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:21,722 [peter_struck]: right 825 00:33:21,667 --> 00:33:25,153 [zaza]: immortal and they had their own super powers but 826 00:33:25,022 --> 00:33:25,183 [peter_struck]: yes 827 00:33:25,694 --> 00:33:27,296 [zaza]: is that basically it or is there 828 00:33:27,511 --> 00:33:27,693 [peter_struck]: yeah 829 00:33:27,777 --> 00:33:28,859 [zaza]: anything else that i 830 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,000 [peter_struck]: no 831 00:33:28,939 --> 00:33:29,260 [zaza]: left out 832 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,000 [peter_struck]: that's basically it i mean the key thing is that they don't die that's 833 00:33:32,951 --> 00:33:33,094 [zaza]: yeah 834 00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:34,803 [peter_struck]: the key thing and that's huge 835 00:33:34,764 --> 00:33:34,906 [zaza]: that 836 00:33:35,584 --> 00:33:37,027 [peter_struck]: um and you know 837 00:33:36,991 --> 00:33:37,211 [zaza]: yes 838 00:33:37,487 --> 00:33:39,050 [peter_struck]: the hugeness of that is 839 00:33:39,138 --> 00:33:39,359 [zaza]: yes 840 00:33:39,711 --> 00:33:45,641 [peter_struck]: mappable on to the great tragedy of being a living thing in addition to being 841 00:33:45,881 --> 00:33:45,961 [peter_struck]: the 842 00:33:45,901 --> 00:33:46,124 [zaza]: yes 843 00:33:46,062 --> 00:33:49,628 [peter_struck]: great marvel of being a living thing is that you may emerge and you exist 844 00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:51,190 [peter_struck]: and you know consciousness and 845 00:33:51,211 --> 00:33:51,559 [zaza]: yeah 846 00:33:51,250 --> 00:33:56,339 [peter_struck]: these things are all extraordinary the sad sad sad price for that is that all 847 00:33:56,281 --> 00:33:56,462 [zaza]: yeah 848 00:33:56,479 --> 00:34:00,325 [peter_struck]: is eventually face the terminus to that state the 849 00:34:00,493 --> 00:34:00,513 [zaza]: h 850 00:34:00,846 --> 00:34:04,172 [peter_struck]: idea that the guys don't face the terminus to that state is 851 00:34:04,111 --> 00:34:04,399 [zaza]: oh 852 00:34:04,552 --> 00:34:05,494 [peter_struck]: a marker for how 853 00:34:05,881 --> 00:34:06,124 [zaza]: oh 854 00:34:06,055 --> 00:34:07,958 [peter_struck]: central that is now our understanding of 855 00:34:07,981 --> 00:34:08,641 [zaza]: oh 856 00:34:07,998 --> 00:34:12,506 [peter_struck]: ourselves as creature what we're like what we are because if you didn't have that 857 00:34:12,546 --> 00:34:12,786 [peter_struck]: you'd be 858 00:34:12,781 --> 00:34:13,981 [zaza]: yeah 859 00:34:12,826 --> 00:34:16,873 [peter_struck]: a completely different thing and that's what these gods kind of start with now they 860 00:34:16,913 --> 00:34:21,762 [peter_struck]: are also extremely powerful so they're i think probably one best ways of thinking about 861 00:34:21,802 --> 00:34:25,531 [peter_struck]: them is that they're like us only a lot more they don't die 862 00:34:25,646 --> 00:34:25,667 [zaza]: i 863 00:34:26,232 --> 00:34:27,214 [peter_struck]: so there a lot more than 864 00:34:27,241 --> 00:34:27,467 [zaza]: oh 865 00:34:27,274 --> 00:34:29,158 [peter_struck]: us in the sense that they know a lot more 866 00:34:29,488 --> 00:34:30,213 [zaza]: oh oh 867 00:34:30,010 --> 00:34:31,638 [peter_struck]: they have much more and they're much bigger 868 00:34:32,011 --> 00:34:32,766 [zaza]: yeah 869 00:34:32,241 --> 00:34:33,346 [peter_struck]: and they have much more power 870 00:34:33,712 --> 00:34:33,813 [zaza]: oh 871 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:37,715 [peter_struck]: their power is not a hundred percent and their knowledge is never a hundred percent 872 00:34:38,657 --> 00:34:38,837 [peter_struck]: their 873 00:34:39,272 --> 00:34:40,223 [zaza]: yeah 874 00:34:39,518 --> 00:34:43,164 [peter_struck]: deathlessness is a hundred per cent with small little asterisks 875 00:34:42,781 --> 00:34:43,024 [zaza]: oh 876 00:34:43,385 --> 00:34:48,672 [peter_struck]: in the tradition that make these weird strange hints it's possible their condition of immortality 877 00:34:48,732 --> 00:34:51,035 [peter_struck]: could roll up at some point to but mostly 878 00:34:51,121 --> 00:34:51,366 [zaza]: yes 879 00:34:51,395 --> 00:34:56,000 [peter_struck]: it's not in this should be they by definition don't die and that's huge and 880 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:56,120 [peter_struck]: then 881 00:34:56,131 --> 00:34:57,121 [zaza]: oh 882 00:34:56,180 --> 00:34:58,182 [peter_struck]: yeah they have super powers and those poor views they divide 883 00:34:58,141 --> 00:34:58,202 [zaza]: ye 884 00:34:58,222 --> 00:34:59,763 [peter_struck]: up among themselves i mean another 885 00:34:59,821 --> 00:35:00,102 [zaza]: oh 886 00:34:59,823 --> 00:35:02,466 [peter_struck]: short answer and this might sound good but what can a god do 887 00:35:02,371 --> 00:35:02,801 [zaza]: yes 888 00:35:02,846 --> 00:35:08,272 [peter_struck]: a god can do whatever zoos lets that god get away with because 889 00:35:08,330 --> 00:35:08,370 [zaza]: an 890 00:35:08,332 --> 00:35:08,493 [peter_struck]: i mean 891 00:35:08,491 --> 00:35:08,893 [zaza]: interesting 892 00:35:08,513 --> 00:35:09,217 [peter_struck]: they are imbedded in it 893 00:35:09,335 --> 00:35:09,476 [zaza]: yeah 894 00:35:09,971 --> 00:35:10,715 [peter_struck]: embedded in a social 895 00:35:10,688 --> 00:35:10,709 [zaza]: i 896 00:35:10,776 --> 00:35:11,782 [peter_struck]: hierarchy and zeus 897 00:35:11,722 --> 00:35:11,924 [zaza]: okay 898 00:35:11,883 --> 00:35:12,406 [peter_struck]: is the boss 899 00:35:13,621 --> 00:35:15,335 [zaza]: so he's also the most powerful clearly 900 00:35:15,870 --> 00:35:23,999 [peter_struck]: yes now he like any leader is burdened by his subordinates they need to be 901 00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:24,299 [peter_struck]: kept 902 00:35:24,532 --> 00:35:24,694 [zaza]: yeah 903 00:35:25,310 --> 00:35:25,610 [peter_struck]: okay 904 00:35:25,985 --> 00:35:26,006 [zaza]: a 905 00:35:26,011 --> 00:35:30,358 [peter_struck]: with things they need to be respective they need to otherwise his job is much 906 00:35:30,438 --> 00:35:35,186 [peter_struck]: more of a hassle because they're barking at him all the time and use do 907 00:35:35,246 --> 00:35:36,148 [peter_struck]: this and do that 908 00:35:36,211 --> 00:35:36,411 [zaza]: yeah 909 00:35:36,268 --> 00:35:41,997 [peter_struck]: so in that sort of family way he's got a potter familias who is burdened 910 00:35:42,699 --> 00:35:47,086 [peter_struck]: by his responsibilities he loves his people yea more 911 00:35:47,431 --> 00:35:47,613 [zaza]: oh 912 00:35:47,547 --> 00:35:49,089 [peter_struck]: some more than others at some times 913 00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:49,434 [zaza]: ah oh 914 00:35:49,310 --> 00:35:55,580 [peter_struck]: then others and never is he love them so much that his threat to inflict 915 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,528 [peter_struck]: horrible pain upon them is not taken seriously it's always taken seriously this is 916 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:00,541 [zaza]: m 917 00:36:00,949 --> 00:36:08,081 [peter_struck]: rules violence um that's explicit and if you want to risk you know horrible suffering 918 00:36:08,762 --> 00:36:10,846 [peter_struck]: as a divinity then you might just sort of 919 00:36:10,852 --> 00:36:11,115 [zaza]: yes 920 00:36:10,986 --> 00:36:14,171 [peter_struck]: willing nelly decide to cross news but that's always in your but he might conflict 921 00:36:14,211 --> 00:36:18,157 [peter_struck]: to a suffering so though you can't die you can definitely suffer and you'd rather 922 00:36:18,237 --> 00:36:18,337 [peter_struck]: not 923 00:36:18,271 --> 00:36:19,171 [zaza]: oh 924 00:36:18,417 --> 00:36:19,239 [peter_struck]: suffer if you're a god 925 00:36:20,742 --> 00:36:25,510 [zaza]: an interesting happens when a god and a mortal have a child and 926 00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:25,776 [peter_struck]: h 927 00:36:25,970 --> 00:36:26,852 [zaza]: we have a demigod 928 00:36:26,529 --> 00:36:26,550 [peter_struck]: m 929 00:36:26,992 --> 00:36:27,833 [zaza]: right like hercules 930 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:28,022 [peter_struck]: yeah 931 00:36:28,795 --> 00:36:34,327 [zaza]: and they usually they're mortal just because they're human they're always mortal right but they 932 00:36:34,468 --> 00:36:34,889 [zaza]: inherit 933 00:36:34,621 --> 00:36:35,400 [peter_struck]: right 934 00:36:35,391 --> 00:36:37,738 [zaza]: a super power is that how it works is that the basic 935 00:36:37,579 --> 00:36:37,762 [peter_struck]: yeah 936 00:36:37,818 --> 00:36:38,119 [zaza]: metric 937 00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:42,095 [peter_struck]: well yeah and they have divine blood in them typically what they inherit as a 938 00:36:42,155 --> 00:36:46,603 [peter_struck]: kind of overall in their powers 939 00:36:46,624 --> 00:36:46,707 [zaza]: oh 940 00:36:47,464 --> 00:36:54,436 [peter_struck]: they don't flirt with immortality hercules is a horhericles in the greek is a is 941 00:36:55,618 --> 00:36:56,119 [peter_struck]: an exception 942 00:36:56,272 --> 00:36:56,455 [zaza]: this 943 00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:57,321 [peter_struck]: so mostly 944 00:36:57,301 --> 00:36:58,591 [zaza]: yeah 945 00:36:57,381 --> 00:37:01,949 [peter_struck]: they don't flirt with immortality but they do have extra power but they don't get 946 00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:08,600 [peter_struck]: powers typically that are growing out of the particular domain in which the divinity has 947 00:37:08,660 --> 00:37:14,529 [peter_struck]: power now there are some special affiliations so you could have someone like a profit 948 00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:18,095 [peter_struck]: or something more a kind of special connection to apollo and just as 949 00:37:18,142 --> 00:37:18,162 [zaza]: i 950 00:37:18,156 --> 00:37:22,623 [peter_struck]: apollo is a seer well so also you know apollo's minions on earth 951 00:37:23,401 --> 00:37:24,001 [zaza]: yeah 952 00:37:23,444 --> 00:37:29,454 [peter_struck]: are seers including titrisiis the most famous um so there are certain people that have 953 00:37:29,514 --> 00:37:31,418 [peter_struck]: connections with divinities but they're typically 954 00:37:31,373 --> 00:37:31,455 [zaza]: ah 955 00:37:31,478 --> 00:37:32,660 [peter_struck]: not thought to be derived 956 00:37:32,311 --> 00:37:32,594 [zaza]: yeah 957 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,384 [peter_struck]: from having been born of the divinity 958 00:37:35,281 --> 00:37:36,091 [zaza]: oh 959 00:37:35,484 --> 00:37:40,254 [peter_struck]: those that are born of the divinity have this sort of quay immortality in the 960 00:37:40,294 --> 00:37:41,137 [peter_struck]: sense that they're powerful 961 00:37:44,382 --> 00:37:49,571 [zaza]: when the romans take over the show you said that there's different angles that they 962 00:37:49,711 --> 00:37:50,392 [zaza]: use but 963 00:37:50,370 --> 00:37:50,390 [peter_struck]: m 964 00:37:50,432 --> 00:37:56,022 [zaza]: there's pretty much a re branding that happens right like zose becomes jupiter ares mars 965 00:37:56,282 --> 00:37:59,447 [zaza]: and so forth we also get the in it where romans 966 00:37:59,500 --> 00:37:59,622 [peter_struck]: yep 967 00:37:59,608 --> 00:38:03,534 [zaza]: trace their ancestry back to troy i think virgil wrote that right 968 00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:04,531 [peter_struck]: deed 969 00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:10,746 [zaza]: but how come the romans as proud they were just kind of immediately acknowledged the 970 00:38:10,786 --> 00:38:16,007 [zaza]: supremacy of greek mythology instead of trying to come up with brand new stuff of 971 00:38:16,048 --> 00:38:16,388 [zaza]: their own 972 00:38:17,941 --> 00:38:19,443 [peter_struck]: um well the 973 00:38:20,632 --> 00:38:20,752 [zaza]: oh 974 00:38:21,266 --> 00:38:22,569 [peter_struck]: romans give us a good example 975 00:38:22,784 --> 00:38:22,969 [zaza]: yeah 976 00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:27,196 [peter_struck]: of something that's happening all around the mediterranean there's a shared pool 977 00:38:27,103 --> 00:38:27,123 [zaza]: a 978 00:38:27,417 --> 00:38:32,044 [peter_struck]: of common stories and the romans had access to that shared pool of common stories 979 00:38:32,405 --> 00:38:36,251 [peter_struck]: in a slightly different but parallel way to the way the greeks had prior to 980 00:38:36,271 --> 00:38:36,432 [peter_struck]: them 981 00:38:36,391 --> 00:38:36,571 [zaza]: oh 982 00:38:36,532 --> 00:38:42,241 [peter_struck]: had shared access to the common pool of material so to say that the romans 983 00:38:42,402 --> 00:38:46,208 [peter_struck]: you sort of pull only greek material and putting their names on it that quite 984 00:38:46,709 --> 00:38:46,949 [peter_struck]: right 985 00:38:46,751 --> 00:38:46,852 [zaza]: ah 986 00:38:47,089 --> 00:38:50,776 [peter_struck]: there the better way of thinking about is that they're both drawing from the same 987 00:38:51,096 --> 00:38:55,043 [peter_struck]: common pool of meditraining material that reaches into the ancient near east as well 988 00:38:55,185 --> 00:38:55,205 [zaza]: i 989 00:38:55,864 --> 00:38:58,028 [peter_struck]: so we've got to epicupgildan this shows us 990 00:38:58,102 --> 00:38:58,771 [zaza]: yes 991 00:38:58,108 --> 00:39:04,018 [peter_struck]: very early traditions in mesopotamia and babylonia that that 992 00:39:03,931 --> 00:39:04,195 [zaza]: yah 993 00:39:04,518 --> 00:39:05,039 [peter_struck]: rang out 994 00:39:05,204 --> 00:39:05,327 [zaza]: do 995 00:39:05,580 --> 00:39:07,744 [peter_struck]: uh themes that we see also showing up 996 00:39:07,771 --> 00:39:07,972 [zaza]: yes 997 00:39:07,804 --> 00:39:13,073 [peter_struck]: in other meniteranian literatures including the hebrew bible including in the greek material including rem 998 00:39:13,173 --> 00:39:13,473 [peter_struck]: material 999 00:39:13,471 --> 00:39:14,701 [zaza]: yeah 1000 00:39:13,533 --> 00:39:19,083 [peter_struck]: so this leads us to kind of proposes kind of broad common pool stuff the 1001 00:39:19,183 --> 00:39:23,390 [peter_struck]: romans prior to knowing a whole bunch of greek material were doing that same kind 1002 00:39:23,450 --> 00:39:25,574 [peter_struck]: of thing they had divinities 1003 00:39:25,443 --> 00:39:25,626 [zaza]: yeah 1004 00:39:25,834 --> 00:39:30,902 [peter_struck]: whose per views aligned and sometimes didn't aligned with the greek material so it will 1005 00:39:30,942 --> 00:39:33,567 [peter_struck]: be perfectly reasonable i think for them to say well our god 1006 00:39:33,631 --> 00:39:34,291 [zaza]: oh 1007 00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:40,258 [peter_struck]: we have a god of work called we have this areas that were lined up 1008 00:39:40,318 --> 00:39:46,729 [peter_struck]: with the great god let's do and jupiter that cesar we've got a sky father 1009 00:39:46,789 --> 00:39:50,515 [peter_struck]: king of the gods type we call our jupiter what do you call the sky 1010 00:39:50,615 --> 00:39:51,937 [peter_struck]: father king of the gods type 1011 00:39:51,841 --> 00:39:53,161 [zaza]: yeah 1012 00:39:51,998 --> 00:39:55,944 [peter_struck]: and they would say we will call him so it's okay fine so that must 1013 00:39:56,064 --> 00:39:58,348 [peter_struck]: be with some similar sort of 1014 00:39:58,351 --> 00:39:58,717 [zaza]: oh 1015 00:39:58,488 --> 00:40:03,477 [peter_struck]: underlying divinity that we you have your name for a deaf our name for it 1016 00:40:03,517 --> 00:40:07,243 [peter_struck]: just like you have a different word for water you know than we do in 1017 00:40:07,363 --> 00:40:08,245 [peter_struck]: greek and latin 1018 00:40:08,672 --> 00:40:08,833 [zaza]: oh 1019 00:40:08,725 --> 00:40:13,734 [peter_struck]: um so that process is happening and it's very dynamic and it's back and forth 1020 00:40:13,794 --> 00:40:16,118 [peter_struck]: and it's a conversation between the traditions 1021 00:40:16,363 --> 00:40:16,383 [zaza]: i 1022 00:40:16,498 --> 00:40:20,265 [peter_struck]: so i think a man and in what the romans do as being starting from 1023 00:40:20,305 --> 00:40:22,088 [peter_struck]: that standpoint is important then 1024 00:40:22,291 --> 00:40:22,394 [zaza]: ye 1025 00:40:22,528 --> 00:40:23,911 [peter_struck]: homer virgil comes along 1026 00:40:23,737 --> 00:40:24,271 [zaza]: right 1027 00:40:24,492 --> 00:40:28,158 [peter_struck]: and specifically re writes homer and he invites us to to 1028 00:40:28,093 --> 00:40:28,422 [zaza]: i did 1029 00:40:28,518 --> 00:40:29,560 [peter_struck]: think that he's doin that in the 1030 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:29,581 [zaza]: m 1031 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:35,630 [peter_struck]: very first line of his poem um so he makes a definitive i think link 1032 00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:36,952 [peter_struck]: and also separation with the 1033 00:40:36,942 --> 00:40:37,104 [zaza]: yeah 1034 00:40:36,973 --> 00:40:40,098 [peter_struck]: homeric material to say i'm going to retail 1035 00:40:40,326 --> 00:40:40,386 [zaza]: ye 1036 00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:43,684 [peter_struck]: very greek materials greek versions of this 1037 00:40:43,642 --> 00:40:43,744 [zaza]: ah 1038 00:40:43,784 --> 00:40:50,295 [peter_struck]: common resource mediterranean stuff and the versions that i'm going to tell now we're going 1039 00:40:50,335 --> 00:40:53,400 [peter_struck]: to be distinctively roman the sort of 1040 00:40:53,611 --> 00:40:54,341 [zaza]: oh 1041 00:40:53,761 --> 00:40:56,144 [peter_struck]: looking at the basic pieces of how the story unfolds a 1042 00:40:56,162 --> 00:40:56,324 [zaza]: yeah 1043 00:40:56,185 --> 00:41:00,592 [peter_struck]: person thinks well this struction war there's a voyage some person faces difficulties 1044 00:41:00,001 --> 00:41:00,532 [zaza]: oh 1045 00:41:00,692 --> 00:41:01,814 [peter_struck]: gets back to what's going 1046 00:41:01,831 --> 00:41:01,952 [zaza]: oh 1047 00:41:01,834 --> 00:41:04,599 [peter_struck]: to be their home fights a war with people gets 1048 00:41:04,621 --> 00:41:05,281 [zaza]: oh 1049 00:41:04,979 --> 00:41:05,981 [peter_struck]: sins it's an iliad an 1050 00:41:06,134 --> 00:41:07,291 [zaza]: yeah 1051 00:41:07,183 --> 00:41:08,826 [peter_struck]: kind of you know the names change 1052 00:41:08,941 --> 00:41:09,229 [zaza]: thank you 1053 00:41:09,807 --> 00:41:10,028 [peter_struck]: you know 1054 00:41:09,931 --> 00:41:10,151 [zaza]: yeah 1055 00:41:10,208 --> 00:41:12,271 [peter_struck]: digged a little further into it and actually the ways 1056 00:41:12,211 --> 00:41:13,411 [zaza]: yeah 1057 00:41:12,311 --> 00:41:17,680 [peter_struck]: in which homer different from the ways in which virgil is different from homer are 1058 00:41:17,921 --> 00:41:23,510 [peter_struck]: profound and really important and in kind of first example 1059 00:41:23,681 --> 00:41:23,864 [zaza]: yes 1060 00:41:23,911 --> 00:41:25,473 [peter_struck]: of that we have well 1061 00:41:25,462 --> 00:41:26,851 [zaza]: oh 1062 00:41:25,533 --> 00:41:30,241 [peter_struck]: documented example of a tradition at on going where a lot of stuff from 1063 00:41:30,571 --> 00:41:30,591 [zaza]: m 1064 00:41:30,942 --> 00:41:34,488 [peter_struck]: the past is retold in a contemporary way 1065 00:41:34,891 --> 00:41:35,903 [zaza]: yes 1066 00:41:35,370 --> 00:41:38,816 [peter_struck]: and given new names and given new faces and that's healthy that 1067 00:41:38,853 --> 00:41:38,935 [zaza]: no 1068 00:41:38,876 --> 00:41:41,901 [peter_struck]: means it's a mythic tradition that's alive so i think that but that's 1069 00:41:41,911 --> 00:41:42,172 [zaza]: yeah 1070 00:41:41,921 --> 00:41:44,528 [peter_struck]: what virgil is up to and we can talk a little bit about 1071 00:41:44,609 --> 00:41:44,791 [zaza]: yeah 1072 00:41:44,628 --> 00:41:48,878 [peter_struck]: specifics of how he goes about it and what seems show up but let you 1073 00:41:49,701 --> 00:41:50,082 [peter_struck]: the question 1074 00:41:50,692 --> 00:41:54,939 [zaza]: um yeah and i'm just wondering weren't the greeks at least a little bit like 1075 00:41:55,059 --> 00:41:58,986 [zaza]: elitist and like come on lads you you're kicking our stuff like come 1076 00:41:58,950 --> 00:41:59,311 [peter_struck]: uh 1077 00:41:59,046 --> 00:42:00,949 [zaza]: on you're like homer was like a thousand years 1078 00:42:00,939 --> 00:42:00,960 [peter_struck]: h 1079 00:42:01,009 --> 00:42:06,541 [zaza]: ago you're trying to do this epilogue of like the iliad like you know 1080 00:42:06,682 --> 00:42:06,907 [peter_struck]: um 1081 00:42:07,462 --> 00:42:11,068 [zaza]: we know who's cultural like you know who invented all of this stuff come on 1082 00:42:11,189 --> 00:42:11,349 [zaza]: like 1083 00:42:11,636 --> 00:42:11,837 [peter_struck]: well 1084 00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:17,840 [zaza]: and also like yeah just like it wasn't like greek culture kind of in esteem 1085 00:42:18,421 --> 00:42:19,663 [zaza]: to rome like all of 1086 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:20,400 [peter_struck]: oh 1087 00:42:19,723 --> 00:42:23,562 [zaza]: the big families had greek tutors and stuff like that or am i 1088 00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:23,805 [peter_struck]: yes 1089 00:42:23,662 --> 00:42:25,106 [zaza]: completely misrepresenting things 1090 00:42:24,910 --> 00:42:27,695 [peter_struck]: no no that is absolutely true greek 1091 00:42:27,871 --> 00:42:29,191 [zaza]: yah 1092 00:42:28,015 --> 00:42:32,903 [peter_struck]: culture has a place in the roman imagination that i think with many differences 1093 00:42:32,701 --> 00:42:33,331 [zaza]: yeah 1094 00:42:32,963 --> 00:42:34,586 [peter_struck]: but let's start with just parallel 1095 00:42:34,561 --> 00:42:34,805 [zaza]: yes 1096 00:42:34,967 --> 00:42:38,593 [peter_struck]: greek culture as a place in the roman imagine in a way somewhat analogous to 1097 00:42:38,673 --> 00:42:40,516 [peter_struck]: what americans think about british people 1098 00:42:41,311 --> 00:42:41,552 [zaza]: oh 1099 00:42:41,458 --> 00:42:43,241 [peter_struck]: um and there's 1100 00:42:43,202 --> 00:42:43,363 [zaza]: yeah 1101 00:42:43,321 --> 00:42:46,867 [peter_struck]: plenty of my brethren in america that will sort of you know pat 1102 00:42:46,681 --> 00:42:47,024 [zaza]: oh 1103 00:42:47,147 --> 00:42:48,409 [peter_struck]: non americans on the head and 1104 00:42:48,451 --> 00:42:48,694 [zaza]: yes 1105 00:42:48,469 --> 00:42:49,812 [peter_struck]: so oh that's so nice because we're 1106 00:42:49,842 --> 00:42:49,983 [zaza]: oh 1107 00:42:49,852 --> 00:42:50,933 [peter_struck]: a super power and you're not 1108 00:42:51,451 --> 00:42:52,353 [zaza]: uh 1109 00:42:52,015 --> 00:42:57,104 [peter_struck]: and were of course the greatest and you know so we'll be kind and gentle 1110 00:42:57,144 --> 00:43:00,289 [peter_struck]: and we're so powerful and and just don't mess with us or else we'll crush 1111 00:43:00,329 --> 00:43:01,311 [peter_struck]: you so i mean 1112 00:43:01,321 --> 00:43:01,602 [zaza]: oh 1113 00:43:01,351 --> 00:43:06,039 [peter_struck]: there's that kind of but when you get to sort of say classy 1114 00:43:05,821 --> 00:43:06,145 [zaza]: oh 1115 00:43:06,139 --> 00:43:08,583 [peter_struck]: things in america cultural products that are supposed to be 1116 00:43:08,551 --> 00:43:08,799 [zaza]: oh 1117 00:43:08,623 --> 00:43:10,145 [peter_struck]: at the high end of the cultural stuff 1118 00:43:10,261 --> 00:43:10,767 [zaza]: oh 1119 00:43:10,446 --> 00:43:12,129 [peter_struck]: british accents are widely over 1120 00:43:12,163 --> 00:43:12,183 [zaza]: i 1121 00:43:12,209 --> 00:43:17,135 [peter_struck]: represent um in the spears and sandals movies that come out of hollywood nearly all 1122 00:43:17,235 --> 00:43:18,397 [peter_struck]: the time ancient greeks 1123 00:43:18,435 --> 00:43:18,579 [zaza]: as 1124 00:43:18,477 --> 00:43:22,142 [peter_struck]: and romans speak with british accents which is absolutely 1125 00:43:22,146 --> 00:43:22,711 [zaza]: yeah 1126 00:43:22,202 --> 00:43:23,324 [peter_struck]: bizarre but 1127 00:43:23,371 --> 00:43:23,671 [zaza]: oh 1128 00:43:23,384 --> 00:43:28,052 [peter_struck]: that that i think is another artifact of this idea that there's some sort of 1129 00:43:28,593 --> 00:43:32,900 [peter_struck]: extra cultural authority that british people have that american lack 1130 00:43:33,271 --> 00:43:33,512 [zaza]: yeah 1131 00:43:33,862 --> 00:43:36,246 [peter_struck]: i'm speaking obviously in very broad brush here and this is 1132 00:43:36,241 --> 00:43:36,991 [zaza]: oh 1133 00:43:36,326 --> 00:43:41,034 [peter_struck]: just s almost like silly hour but it nevertheless i think captures something 1134 00:43:41,206 --> 00:43:41,227 [zaza]: i 1135 00:43:41,354 --> 00:43:42,797 [peter_struck]: that's at least recognizable 1136 00:43:42,361 --> 00:43:43,501 [zaza]: yeah 1137 00:43:43,077 --> 00:43:46,883 [peter_struck]: you can't turn on our nation public radio without hearing british accents in america i 1138 00:43:46,903 --> 00:43:47,264 [peter_struck]: mean like that 1139 00:43:47,262 --> 00:43:47,424 [zaza]: yes 1140 00:43:47,304 --> 00:43:47,905 [peter_struck]: that's just what we 1141 00:43:47,971 --> 00:43:48,961 [zaza]: yes 1142 00:43:47,985 --> 00:43:50,610 [peter_struck]: do go to the symphony go to the opera you know what 1143 00:43:50,551 --> 00:43:50,811 [zaza]: oh 1144 00:43:50,690 --> 00:43:54,656 [peter_struck]: talking um similarly in the roman material they would pat the greeks on the head 1145 00:43:54,716 --> 00:43:57,962 [peter_struck]: and say ah you used to be great and the crush you but 1146 00:43:57,841 --> 00:43:58,083 [zaza]: oh 1147 00:43:58,042 --> 00:44:02,429 [peter_struck]: at the same time this sort of greek culture had this extra stuff and it 1148 00:44:02,489 --> 00:44:06,937 [peter_struck]: was it had authority and it gave a person a certain sort of cultural cache 1149 00:44:07,424 --> 00:44:07,629 [zaza]: yes 1150 00:44:07,698 --> 00:44:11,504 [peter_struck]: to be able to act that and the manifestation of great tutors is really an 1151 00:44:11,585 --> 00:44:18,296 [peter_struck]: important example of this there's also a wonderful line from the poet horace who says 1152 00:44:18,757 --> 00:44:22,641 [peter_struck]: the romans after they conquered greece we're conquered 1153 00:44:22,381 --> 00:44:22,643 [zaza]: yeah 1154 00:44:23,042 --> 00:44:32,718 [peter_struck]: by the by greek culture so it's it's it has this long on going deep 1155 00:44:35,482 --> 00:44:36,965 [peter_struck]: the particularly along 1156 00:44:37,111 --> 00:44:37,789 [zaza]: yea 1157 00:44:37,225 --> 00:44:43,095 [peter_struck]: among the romans that yes those greeks we stand above them but at the same 1158 00:44:43,155 --> 00:44:47,021 [peter_struck]: time the cultural stuff they produce is something you have to kind of pay attention 1159 00:44:47,122 --> 00:44:50,087 [peter_struck]: to sadly virgil 1160 00:44:50,281 --> 00:44:50,941 [zaza]: yeah 1161 00:44:50,547 --> 00:44:54,374 [peter_struck]: in a way wants to provide and to some extent is successful in providing a 1162 00:44:54,434 --> 00:44:55,355 [peter_struck]: definitive answer 1163 00:44:55,171 --> 00:44:55,273 [zaza]: ye 1164 00:44:55,395 --> 00:44:59,703 [peter_struck]: to that question there is some weakness to what we do but where the trojans 1165 00:44:59,743 --> 00:45:01,626 [peter_struck]: not the greeks that's what the ancient tradition were 1166 00:45:01,521 --> 00:45:01,663 [zaza]: thank 1167 00:45:01,646 --> 00:45:01,846 [peter_struck]: linked 1168 00:45:01,703 --> 00:45:01,764 [zaza]: you 1169 00:45:01,906 --> 00:45:07,195 [peter_struck]: to and that's fanciful it's not made up by virgil but several centuries prior to 1170 00:45:07,255 --> 00:45:11,582 [peter_struck]: virgil romans started to think of themselves as having to like it but again it's 1171 00:45:11,663 --> 00:45:17,873 [peter_struck]: just made up we don't have any particular reason to think that that's true and 1172 00:45:17,971 --> 00:45:20,101 [zaza]: yeah 1173 00:45:17,973 --> 00:45:24,143 [peter_struck]: that gives them a to hold in that greek world this core piece of the 1174 00:45:24,183 --> 00:45:27,329 [peter_struck]: greek world was greeks against trojans but puts them on the other side of the 1175 00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:29,072 [peter_struck]: greeks so they have their independent 1176 00:45:29,050 --> 00:45:29,071 [zaza]: m 1177 00:45:30,213 --> 00:45:31,536 [peter_struck]: plus also those values that they 1178 00:45:31,471 --> 00:45:32,581 [zaza]: yeah 1179 00:45:32,197 --> 00:45:34,180 [peter_struck]: exonerate the value that they brace 1180 00:45:34,473 --> 00:45:34,494 [zaza]: a 1181 00:45:34,761 --> 00:45:36,384 [peter_struck]: um and the crimes that they exonerate are 1182 00:45:36,396 --> 00:45:36,416 [zaza]: a 1183 00:45:36,404 --> 00:45:42,034 [peter_struck]: different than what the greeks did with their so and that's always an interesting thing 1184 00:45:42,074 --> 00:45:45,119 [peter_struck]: to study in the comparative project between greek mythology and roman mythology 1185 00:45:44,701 --> 00:45:48,352 [zaza]: so what's what are some of the things that jump at you immediately when you 1186 00:45:48,392 --> 00:45:48,693 [zaza]: compare 1187 00:45:48,462 --> 00:45:48,602 [peter_struck]: yeah 1188 00:45:48,753 --> 00:45:50,519 [zaza]: these myths like greek greek and roman ones 1189 00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:55,838 [peter_struck]: low hanging fruit you start to look at the odysseus as the centerpiece of the 1190 00:45:55,918 --> 00:46:02,689 [peter_struck]: oudisy versus neis as the centerpiece of virgil need odysseus is venerated for being resourceful 1191 00:46:03,330 --> 00:46:06,916 [peter_struck]: can always get out of trouble so if something comes his way 1192 00:46:07,141 --> 00:46:07,382 [zaza]: yeah 1193 00:46:07,256 --> 00:46:09,821 [peter_struck]: he will figure out a way to get through it get past it 1194 00:46:09,777 --> 00:46:09,958 [zaza]: yeah 1195 00:46:10,021 --> 00:46:13,166 [peter_struck]: and and get beyond the move to the next step um 1196 00:46:13,426 --> 00:46:13,529 [zaza]: ah 1197 00:46:13,947 --> 00:46:14,348 [peter_struck]: virgil 1198 00:46:14,551 --> 00:46:14,652 [zaza]: ye 1199 00:46:15,009 --> 00:46:20,722 [peter_struck]: take odissiisto task for being so resourceful the problem is you can always get out 1200 00:46:20,762 --> 00:46:23,588 [peter_struck]: of trouble fine but why did you get into trouble in the first place 1201 00:46:23,611 --> 00:46:23,631 [zaza]: m 1202 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,005 [peter_struck]: so it just shows shorty planning 1203 00:46:27,751 --> 00:46:28,019 [zaza]: yes 1204 00:46:28,626 --> 00:46:29,287 [peter_struck]: insufficient 1205 00:46:29,071 --> 00:46:29,372 [zaza]: oh 1206 00:46:29,367 --> 00:46:36,519 [peter_struck]: commitment to the collective good of everybody and a great hero resourcefulness fine you 1207 00:46:36,571 --> 00:46:37,201 [zaza]: ye 1208 00:46:36,579 --> 00:46:41,187 [peter_struck]: can resourceful but that's not the centerpiece for the romans the centerpiece is something that 1209 00:46:41,487 --> 00:46:43,331 [peter_struck]: in latin is called p a tough 1210 00:46:43,292 --> 00:46:43,596 [zaza]: i just 1211 00:46:44,212 --> 00:46:44,613 [peter_struck]: and we 1212 00:46:44,605 --> 00:46:44,706 [zaza]: ah 1213 00:46:44,693 --> 00:46:49,321 [peter_struck]: have a english cognate to that of piety and that works okay all is acts 1214 00:46:49,401 --> 00:46:54,088 [peter_struck]: part of the greek the roman term the elman term really talks about duty and 1215 00:46:54,169 --> 00:46:57,995 [peter_struck]: honour and it's your your fealty 1216 00:46:58,063 --> 00:46:58,083 [zaza]: i 1217 00:46:58,476 --> 00:47:04,265 [peter_struck]: to broader collective vale of the group as a whole and irrespective of what's good 1218 00:47:04,285 --> 00:47:08,973 [peter_struck]: for you as an individual you will always carry for what the good of the 1219 00:47:09,013 --> 00:47:15,825 [peter_struck]: broader collective so that's what virgil wants to say is the center piece a great 1220 00:47:15,885 --> 00:47:16,125 [peter_struck]: hero 1221 00:47:16,322 --> 00:47:16,831 [zaza]: yeah 1222 00:47:16,546 --> 00:47:21,694 [peter_struck]: and that's very roman it's you can find some analogous stuff in the greek material 1223 00:47:21,735 --> 00:47:22,736 [peter_struck]: but it's not this centerpiece 1224 00:47:22,411 --> 00:47:22,637 [zaza]: oh 1225 00:47:23,538 --> 00:47:27,184 [peter_struck]: odissuss center pieces definitely his resource as always been able to get out of trouble 1226 00:47:28,261 --> 00:47:28,542 [zaza]: oh 1227 00:47:28,586 --> 00:47:32,753 [peter_struck]: so you know you see these differences and nuance and the ways in which these 1228 00:47:32,641 --> 00:47:32,783 [zaza]: yes 1229 00:47:32,813 --> 00:47:37,040 [peter_struck]: are coded in the mead are just really fun to watch the 1230 00:47:37,951 --> 00:47:38,233 [zaza]: oh 1231 00:47:38,082 --> 00:47:41,768 [peter_struck]: when we start to learn about different figures as they kind of show up anne 1232 00:47:42,689 --> 00:47:43,511 [peter_struck]: taking paths 1233 00:47:43,572 --> 00:47:43,734 [zaza]: eh 1234 00:47:43,591 --> 00:47:44,893 [peter_struck]: that sometimes intersect 1235 00:47:44,941 --> 00:47:46,201 [zaza]: yeah 1236 00:47:44,953 --> 00:47:48,259 [peter_struck]: with paths that odiscis took and an will run into folks that have been 1237 00:47:48,331 --> 00:47:48,931 [zaza]: yeah 1238 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,828 [peter_struck]: you know treated poorly by odysseus and left behind and then he said what happened 1239 00:47:53,821 --> 00:47:54,043 [zaza]: oh 1240 00:47:53,868 --> 00:47:56,252 [peter_struck]: to you well i was with this guy odysseus a greek hero 1241 00:47:56,071 --> 00:47:56,295 [zaza]: yah 1242 00:47:56,352 --> 00:47:59,177 [peter_struck]: and i'm a greek myself but he just left behind on this island because 1243 00:47:59,341 --> 00:47:59,503 [zaza]: yeah 1244 00:47:59,517 --> 00:48:05,307 [peter_struck]: he was off being resourceful um it's a way that virgil makes a sharp point 1245 00:48:05,768 --> 00:48:06,189 [peter_struck]: of saying 1246 00:48:06,211 --> 00:48:07,081 [zaza]: oh 1247 00:48:06,229 --> 00:48:11,918 [peter_struck]: that you know no romans are different and you know i think the romans make 1248 00:48:11,958 --> 00:48:15,765 [peter_struck]: the most sense to them as the first and the long line of well first 1249 00:48:15,965 --> 00:48:19,270 [peter_struck]: well documented version in a long line of folks that 1250 00:48:19,171 --> 00:48:19,354 [zaza]: yeah 1251 00:48:19,371 --> 00:48:22,876 [peter_struck]: keep were using this greek material in a 1252 00:48:22,891 --> 00:48:23,111 [zaza]: yeah 1253 00:48:22,957 --> 00:48:24,319 [peter_struck]: way that speaks of their own cultures 1254 00:48:24,818 --> 00:48:24,999 [zaza]: yeah 1255 00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:28,947 [peter_struck]: they do a lot of changes the folks over time will change the tradition and 1256 00:48:28,987 --> 00:48:29,127 [peter_struck]: that 1257 00:48:29,032 --> 00:48:29,214 [zaza]: yes 1258 00:48:29,427 --> 00:48:31,731 [peter_struck]: again healthy i worry sometimes 1259 00:48:31,681 --> 00:48:31,782 [zaza]: ye 1260 00:48:31,771 --> 00:48:34,275 [peter_struck]: that folks spend a little bit too much time particularly those who are really 1261 00:48:34,321 --> 00:48:34,465 [zaza]: ye 1262 00:48:34,336 --> 00:48:37,761 [peter_struck]: enthusiasts for the material spend a little too much time and their fingers at the 1263 00:48:38,442 --> 00:48:43,190 [peter_struck]: contemporary versions of the roman versions the eighteenth century ones but that's 1264 00:48:43,132 --> 00:48:43,253 [zaza]: yes 1265 00:48:43,411 --> 00:48:45,614 [peter_struck]: for that matter it they all look they 1266 00:48:45,532 --> 00:48:45,694 [zaza]: yea 1267 00:48:45,674 --> 00:48:50,062 [peter_struck]: changed this and you know all of a sudden this is a frenchman that's so 1268 00:48:50,182 --> 00:48:54,750 [peter_struck]: weird and why would a person think that and and you know yeah okay but 1269 00:48:54,830 --> 00:48:59,377 [peter_struck]: that this kind of thing is just the way we do if the tradition is 1270 00:48:59,437 --> 00:49:02,968 [peter_struck]: alive it's changing so that's an that's still happening today 1271 00:49:02,911 --> 00:49:08,808 [zaza]: yeah yeah that's a perfect sagua to my next question one of the best things 1272 00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:13,516 [zaza]: about this podcast it's not just the amazing knowledge that you the guests impart it 1273 00:49:13,716 --> 00:49:19,408 [zaza]: also it's also the discoveries that when i'm preparing for these interviews so i'm originally 1274 00:49:19,468 --> 00:49:25,282 [zaza]: from lubiana the capital of slavinia a small country in south eastern europe and ulana 1275 00:49:25,442 --> 00:49:30,751 [zaza]: symbol which is literally every everywhere has always been a dragon we have it on 1276 00:49:30,831 --> 00:49:36,601 [zaza]: license plates sports clubs jerseys city flags we even have the dragon bridge in the 1277 00:49:36,721 --> 00:49:38,781 [zaza]: enter up the city following 1278 00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:38,782 [peter_struck]: oh 1279 00:49:38,841 --> 00:49:43,469 [zaza]: a hunch i finally did a little bit of research on the origin story and 1280 00:49:43,629 --> 00:49:44,551 [zaza]: found out that 1281 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:44,882 [peter_struck]: ye 1282 00:49:45,012 --> 00:49:50,320 [zaza]: in the swampy areas of the city there used to live a huge dragon supposedly 1283 00:49:51,084 --> 00:49:54,358 [zaza]: and who suddenly comes along if not jason and the argonauts 1284 00:49:55,060 --> 00:49:55,305 [peter_struck]: there you 1285 00:49:55,381 --> 00:49:55,461 [zaza]: and 1286 00:49:55,386 --> 00:49:55,468 [peter_struck]: go 1287 00:49:55,521 --> 00:49:59,949 [zaza]: in order to proceed along their journey they have to disassemble the boat and carry 1288 00:50:00,009 --> 00:50:04,256 [zaza]: it on foot for a bit but before they can do that jason kills the 1289 00:50:04,316 --> 00:50:09,745 [zaza]: dragon obviously and establishes the city it then becomes a mona the ancient roman city 1290 00:50:10,226 --> 00:50:15,154 [zaza]: and then lubliana um we even have a date when that supposedly happened which is 1291 00:50:15,354 --> 00:50:16,877 [zaza]: twelve twenty three b c 1292 00:50:18,001 --> 00:50:18,284 [peter_struck]: nice 1293 00:50:18,019 --> 00:50:22,847 [zaza]: the story was in vent it though during the barrack era but i guess i'm 1294 00:50:22,887 --> 00:50:28,016 [zaza]: trying to ask why do we all want to be part of this mythology so 1295 00:50:28,156 --> 00:50:29,358 [zaza]: so bad what's the 1296 00:50:29,433 --> 00:50:29,494 [peter_struck]: ye 1297 00:50:29,438 --> 00:50:34,818 [zaza]: enduring appeal that's been carrying over for over two thousand five hundred years 1298 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:41,570 [peter_struck]: well that's a great question i suppose that you know what answer i would give 1299 00:50:41,565 --> 00:50:41,646 [zaza]: so 1300 00:50:41,630 --> 00:50:46,598 [peter_struck]: here i couldn't say that i'm comfortable claiming it would be some definitive answer but 1301 00:50:46,618 --> 00:50:48,561 [peter_struck]: i can give you something ion um 1302 00:50:48,575 --> 00:50:48,816 [zaza]: please 1303 00:50:49,062 --> 00:50:51,947 [peter_struck]: first of all first of all think those stories are just great these are great 1304 00:50:52,007 --> 00:50:53,249 [peter_struck]: stories they're so 1305 00:50:53,351 --> 00:50:53,492 [zaza]: yeah 1306 00:50:53,450 --> 00:50:54,251 [peter_struck]: interesting and fun 1307 00:50:54,460 --> 00:50:54,722 [zaza]: agree 1308 00:50:55,273 --> 00:50:56,975 [peter_struck]: and stories that we have from deep 1309 00:50:57,061 --> 00:50:57,301 [zaza]: oh 1310 00:50:57,076 --> 00:51:02,545 [peter_struck]: antiquity from our human group um they're just compelling there 1311 00:51:02,506 --> 00:51:02,526 [zaza]: a 1312 00:51:02,605 --> 00:51:05,690 [peter_struck]: there in some ways they'll speak to us in other ways they're different than what 1313 00:51:05,730 --> 00:51:09,757 [peter_struck]: leads to seeing but there there great to so you've got that 1314 00:51:10,445 --> 00:51:10,506 [zaza]: of 1315 00:51:10,899 --> 00:51:16,087 [peter_struck]: that sort of pelling surface that yeah this was just a really interesting thing to 1316 00:51:16,127 --> 00:51:21,536 [peter_struck]: hear then there is of course a whole fundament of cultural stuff that's built up 1317 00:51:21,617 --> 00:51:24,822 [peter_struck]: around those stories that was built up prior to us 1318 00:51:24,803 --> 00:51:25,531 [zaza]: fire 1319 00:51:24,902 --> 00:51:27,987 [peter_struck]: but after the stories were first told if we ever would know when they were 1320 00:51:28,047 --> 00:51:31,132 [peter_struck]: first told we're not going to know that and the retelling 1321 00:51:30,781 --> 00:51:30,882 [zaza]: ye 1322 00:51:31,733 --> 00:51:37,203 [peter_struck]: over time over centuries um build a kind of under laying it for lots of 1323 00:51:37,283 --> 00:51:37,643 [peter_struck]: cultural 1324 00:51:37,531 --> 00:51:37,773 [zaza]: oh 1325 00:51:37,723 --> 00:51:41,690 [peter_struck]: stuff so when we re hear that story told in a new way we're linking 1326 00:51:41,770 --> 00:51:46,959 [peter_struck]: into whole bunch of stuff that appears to us to be central to our own 1327 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,042 [peter_struck]: sum and this 1328 00:51:49,271 --> 00:51:49,434 [zaza]: yes 1329 00:51:49,383 --> 00:51:55,293 [peter_struck]: our own is really interesting area of contest at this point who's the group that's 1330 00:51:55,313 --> 00:51:58,157 [peter_struck]: telling the mythology for what purpose that's 1331 00:51:58,141 --> 00:51:58,470 [zaza]: oh 1332 00:51:59,660 --> 00:52:02,865 [peter_struck]: part of the story that was included for a long time because it was thought 1333 00:52:02,905 --> 00:52:08,374 [peter_struck]: that while these miss speak for all of humanity et cetera ceeretsoea that that mode 1334 00:52:08,435 --> 00:52:08,475 [peter_struck]: of 1335 00:52:08,533 --> 00:52:09,121 [zaza]: yeah 1336 00:52:08,535 --> 00:52:11,740 [peter_struck]: thinking i don't want to say it's been 1337 00:52:11,761 --> 00:52:12,063 [zaza]: yes 1338 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,007 [peter_struck]: sort of decided against or solved in some negative way entirely but it's really hard 1339 00:52:16,087 --> 00:52:21,536 [peter_struck]: to go ahead and claims about broad hewn universal human residents on the kind of 1340 00:52:21,556 --> 00:52:26,104 [peter_struck]: thing that used to drive the study of this stuff a hundred years ago we 1341 00:52:26,144 --> 00:52:28,107 [peter_struck]: don't talk about that so much any more because it's just 1342 00:52:28,051 --> 00:52:28,495 [zaza]: yes 1343 00:52:28,187 --> 00:52:32,354 [peter_struck]: led to so many dead ends or so many mistakes but instead we've got a 1344 00:52:32,394 --> 00:52:33,156 [peter_struck]: group of people 1345 00:52:33,091 --> 00:52:33,373 [zaza]: oh 1346 00:52:33,416 --> 00:52:34,919 [peter_struck]: that inherit some 1347 00:52:34,741 --> 00:52:35,759 [zaza]: yea 1348 00:52:35,099 --> 00:52:37,936 [peter_struck]: stuff from some tradition that they decide 1349 00:52:38,286 --> 00:52:38,306 [zaza]: i 1350 00:52:38,730 --> 00:52:43,938 [peter_struck]: their ancestry just as the romans rome has decided it would be the trojans so 1351 00:52:44,099 --> 00:52:46,142 [peter_struck]: also different folks have decided that the greeks are 1352 00:52:46,201 --> 00:52:46,522 [zaza]: oh 1353 00:52:46,202 --> 00:52:51,531 [peter_struck]: their own ancestors which is kind of absurd honestly in sense do they mean the 1354 00:52:51,631 --> 00:52:56,319 [peter_struck]: ancestor how to be but let's just say it's culturally constructed and that doesn't 1355 00:52:56,221 --> 00:52:57,331 [zaza]: oh 1356 00:52:56,339 --> 00:53:01,868 [peter_struck]: mean it's manless and very meanful but it's a choice people will decide what ancestry 1357 00:53:01,908 --> 00:53:05,735 [peter_struck]: they have for their own culture and those decisions and conversations happen in the given 1358 00:53:05,815 --> 00:53:12,506 [peter_struck]: take of current contemporary politics always so the construction of antiquity is reliant on some 1359 00:53:12,586 --> 00:53:18,075 [peter_struck]: broader understandings of the contemporary world in it also susceptible to the themes in ancient 1360 00:53:18,095 --> 00:53:19,037 [peter_struck]: themes are susceptible 1361 00:53:19,291 --> 00:53:19,553 [zaza]: yeah 1362 00:53:19,317 --> 00:53:23,785 [peter_struck]: to being overrun by the contemporary ones so all of those things i think need 1363 00:53:23,805 --> 00:53:27,571 [peter_struck]: to be part of a conversation that talks about inheritance how it happens in why 1364 00:53:27,671 --> 00:53:33,421 [peter_struck]: we do what we do with this ancient stuff so and i think 1365 00:53:33,554 --> 00:53:33,575 [zaza]: i 1366 00:53:33,842 --> 00:53:37,848 [peter_struck]: most of what i've said so far although i'll refer to my colleagues who study 1367 00:53:39,311 --> 00:53:44,960 [peter_struck]: materials from south east asia or from east asia or from the east beyond yotemeshthat 1368 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,925 [peter_struck]: ave reference and i feel a little comfortable talking about that much good work on 1369 00:53:48,426 --> 00:53:54,236 [peter_struck]: but for my college would have experts from the other areas of deep antiquity egyptian 1370 00:53:54,296 --> 00:53:54,696 [peter_struck]: material 1371 00:53:54,622 --> 00:53:54,784 [zaza]: yep 1372 00:53:55,137 --> 00:53:59,424 [peter_struck]: um it could be that the materials that they're talking about when they look at 1373 00:53:59,444 --> 00:54:06,937 [peter_struck]: the mahabarata or the ramada the ancient egyptian temple inscriptions they would say that yeah 1374 00:54:07,235 --> 00:54:07,357 [zaza]: yeah 1375 00:54:07,337 --> 00:54:09,782 [peter_struck]: a similar kind of process i would say is happening 1376 00:54:09,783 --> 00:54:09,948 [zaza]: yeah 1377 00:54:10,102 --> 00:54:15,311 [peter_struck]: with this tradition into the contemporary world but they might not 1378 00:54:15,423 --> 00:54:15,443 [zaza]: i 1379 00:54:15,511 --> 00:54:20,840 [peter_struck]: and i'd be curious to hear what further descriptions would happen in other areas to 1380 00:54:21,241 --> 00:54:22,042 [peter_struck]: feel pretty confident 1381 00:54:22,062 --> 00:54:22,163 [zaza]: ah 1382 00:54:22,082 --> 00:54:24,346 [peter_struck]: to talk about that in material in the ligacine to 1383 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:24,361 [zaza]: ah 1384 00:54:24,386 --> 00:54:28,614 [peter_struck]: the european material and the licine to those who claimed europe 1385 00:54:28,741 --> 00:54:29,911 [zaza]: oh 1386 00:54:28,854 --> 00:54:32,241 [peter_struck]: as sort of some center piece of what their contemporary culture is um 1387 00:54:32,401 --> 00:54:32,642 [zaza]: yeah 1388 00:54:32,902 --> 00:54:36,268 [peter_struck]: so you know again these things are not given 1389 00:54:36,421 --> 00:54:36,584 [zaza]: ye 1390 00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:37,531 [peter_struck]: used to be thought that 1391 00:54:37,471 --> 00:54:37,633 [zaza]: ye 1392 00:54:37,551 --> 00:54:39,574 [peter_struck]: they were given based on geography and race 1393 00:54:39,475 --> 00:54:39,901 [zaza]: to get a 1394 00:54:40,536 --> 00:54:43,621 [peter_struck]: which is a sad part of the discussion of mythology 1395 00:54:43,501 --> 00:54:43,748 [zaza]: yes 1396 00:54:44,102 --> 00:54:46,285 [peter_struck]: race questions of race course in and out 1397 00:54:46,201 --> 00:54:46,831 [zaza]: yeah 1398 00:54:46,465 --> 00:54:48,789 [peter_struck]: of the conversation about mythology in the contemporary 1399 00:54:48,751 --> 00:54:49,034 [zaza]: yeah 1400 00:54:49,030 --> 00:54:51,833 [peter_struck]: pan context m usually to 1401 00:54:52,690 --> 00:54:52,711 [zaza]: m 1402 00:54:52,855 --> 00:54:57,941 [peter_struck]: nefarious ends um but yeah each of these is 1403 00:54:57,932 --> 00:54:58,113 [zaza]: just 1404 00:54:59,003 --> 00:54:59,464 [peter_struck]: has to be 1405 00:54:59,452 --> 00:54:59,616 [zaza]: yeah 1406 00:54:59,784 --> 00:55:00,786 [peter_struck]: part of the story that's 1407 00:55:00,841 --> 00:55:01,023 [zaza]: yeah 1408 00:55:00,866 --> 00:55:05,774 [peter_struck]: told about the inheritance and re branding of these ancient materials 1409 00:55:05,602 --> 00:55:05,865 [zaza]: is this 1410 00:55:05,975 --> 00:55:06,636 [peter_struck]: in the context in 1411 00:55:06,601 --> 00:55:06,843 [zaza]: yes 1412 00:55:06,696 --> 00:55:09,281 [peter_struck]: which they are and for the greek and roman materials surely 1413 00:55:09,494 --> 00:55:09,656 [zaza]: yes 1414 00:55:09,762 --> 00:55:15,117 [peter_struck]: they're embedded in these broader discussions about contemporary identities in whatever time the material is 1415 00:55:15,137 --> 00:55:15,619 [peter_struck]: being retold 1416 00:55:16,521 --> 00:55:19,647 [zaza]: yeah no i was just quite surprised that there were so insistent 1417 00:55:19,590 --> 00:55:20,190 [peter_struck]: my 1418 00:55:20,388 --> 00:55:21,590 [zaza]: because this is you 1419 00:55:21,540 --> 00:55:21,764 [peter_struck]: oh 1420 00:55:21,650 --> 00:55:27,680 [zaza]: know slavic people live here and slavic people have come around the sixth century to 1421 00:55:27,740 --> 00:55:33,149 [zaza]: these um to these areas and people in bark knew that obviously because of the 1422 00:55:33,189 --> 00:55:36,555 [zaza]: language and all that stuff but still they were like no we're going to go 1423 00:55:36,575 --> 00:55:38,818 [zaza]: with jason here so 1424 00:55:39,382 --> 00:55:44,932 [peter_struck]: that's one you know well i laugh i laugh but with some caution because of 1425 00:55:44,992 --> 00:55:51,863 [peter_struck]: course miss is an area in which ideologies that are sometimes horribly unjust are built 1426 00:55:52,003 --> 00:55:56,150 [peter_struck]: up repeated and become authoritative so yes that 1427 00:55:56,203 --> 00:55:56,223 [zaza]: i 1428 00:55:56,210 --> 00:55:59,436 [peter_struck]: does happen i'm not saying this is happening in the context that you're talking about 1429 00:55:59,851 --> 00:56:00,132 [zaza]: oh 1430 00:55:59,917 --> 00:56:03,783 [peter_struck]: people all the time make up benin they also make up nine traditions 1431 00:56:04,081 --> 00:56:04,741 [zaza]: yes 1432 00:56:04,464 --> 00:56:04,925 [peter_struck]: that don't 1433 00:56:04,831 --> 00:56:05,153 [zaza]: oh 1434 00:56:05,205 --> 00:56:08,511 [peter_struck]: deal to systematic human injustice that are just sort of as that charming 1435 00:56:08,671 --> 00:56:09,271 [zaza]: yeah 1436 00:56:08,671 --> 00:56:08,912 [peter_struck]: you know 1437 00:56:09,331 --> 00:56:09,611 [zaza]: yeah it's 1438 00:56:09,573 --> 00:56:09,653 [peter_struck]: you 1439 00:56:09,671 --> 00:56:09,912 [zaza]: cute 1440 00:56:09,733 --> 00:56:13,620 [peter_struck]: think that a yeah so but again 1441 00:56:13,681 --> 00:56:14,581 [zaza]: oh 1442 00:56:13,980 --> 00:56:16,042 [peter_struck]: my my laughing at the charm of 1443 00:56:16,051 --> 00:56:16,835 [zaza]: oh 1444 00:56:16,122 --> 00:56:19,265 [peter_struck]: it always i think needs to be a little bit tempered by being cautious about 1445 00:56:19,565 --> 00:56:19,966 [peter_struck]: what people 1446 00:56:19,930 --> 00:56:20,295 [zaza]: h oh 1447 00:56:20,026 --> 00:56:21,047 [peter_struck]: then start to talk about 1448 00:56:22,434 --> 00:56:22,654 [zaza]: well i 1449 00:56:22,689 --> 00:56:22,749 [peter_struck]: and 1450 00:56:22,715 --> 00:56:23,116 [zaza]: appreciate 1451 00:56:22,849 --> 00:56:23,149 [peter_struck]: engaged 1452 00:56:23,156 --> 00:56:24,019 [zaza]: your gentle approach 1453 00:56:25,704 --> 00:56:27,270 [peter_struck]: i'm engaged in contemporary discussions 1454 00:56:27,241 --> 00:56:28,081 [zaza]: oh 1455 00:56:27,651 --> 00:56:30,831 [peter_struck]: and in the us this kind of conversation is i hated 1456 00:56:31,191 --> 00:56:31,311 [zaza]: yeah 1457 00:56:31,632 --> 00:56:38,143 [peter_struck]: um in which who we are as a group is being is being debated and 1458 00:56:38,273 --> 00:56:38,293 [zaza]: m 1459 00:56:38,283 --> 00:56:39,866 [peter_struck]: sometimes on terms when i think re 1460 00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:39,931 [zaza]: m 1461 00:56:39,946 --> 00:56:41,468 [peter_struck]: leading to deaden and 1462 00:56:41,442 --> 00:56:41,564 [zaza]: yeah 1463 00:56:41,529 --> 00:56:47,438 [peter_struck]: particularly to outcome but all this i think is a piece of what what it 1464 00:56:47,579 --> 00:56:48,079 [peter_struck]: is it's not 1465 00:56:48,011 --> 00:56:48,232 [zaza]: yes 1466 00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:53,128 [peter_struck]: clean of that stuff and i think goes to say that it is i get 1467 00:56:53,248 --> 00:56:53,649 [peter_struck]: nerves 1468 00:56:53,371 --> 00:56:53,780 [zaza]: yes 1469 00:56:53,829 --> 00:56:58,377 [peter_struck]: about and they might go next because for them it just means that okay xnlyanzare 1470 00:56:58,457 --> 00:57:02,103 [peter_struck]: the dominant ways that we ought to be thinking and then there's gender roles involved 1471 00:57:02,123 --> 00:57:05,629 [peter_struck]: and then there's proper social places that a person has and what 1472 00:57:05,652 --> 00:57:05,835 [zaza]: yes 1473 00:57:05,689 --> 00:57:09,667 [peter_struck]: they ought to to be doing get tricky get strick 1474 00:57:10,711 --> 00:57:18,142 [zaza]: yeah all of hollywood contemporary incarnations not all but let's say most incarnations of greek 1475 00:57:18,262 --> 00:57:22,029 [zaza]: myths seem average at best but 1476 00:57:21,930 --> 00:57:22,211 [peter_struck]: oh 1477 00:57:22,129 --> 00:57:23,852 [zaza]: mostly quite what's the word 1478 00:57:23,739 --> 00:57:23,760 [peter_struck]: h 1479 00:57:23,892 --> 00:57:26,556 [zaza]: i'm looking for disappointing to be honest 1480 00:57:26,550 --> 00:57:26,853 [peter_struck]: oh 1481 00:57:26,636 --> 00:57:32,065 [zaza]: i mean some bits of dialogue from these movies have become actual mems like this 1482 00:57:32,166 --> 00:57:34,089 [zaza]: is sparta from three hundred and 1483 00:57:34,230 --> 00:57:34,491 [peter_struck]: yeah 1484 00:57:34,770 --> 00:57:36,733 [zaza]: release the cracking from clash 1485 00:57:36,570 --> 00:57:36,891 [peter_struck]: oh 1486 00:57:36,833 --> 00:57:39,638 [zaza]: of the titans i think leamnisan says that 1487 00:57:39,909 --> 00:57:39,990 [peter_struck]: ah 1488 00:57:40,239 --> 00:57:42,142 [zaza]: i think he's zoos posidan i don't know 1489 00:57:42,898 --> 00:57:43,021 [peter_struck]: yeah 1490 00:57:43,364 --> 00:57:47,792 [zaza]: even troy which i loved as as a kid seems kind of lack luster i've 1491 00:57:47,872 --> 00:57:54,964 [zaza]: watched that two weeks ago they make patroclus and achilles cause not lovers which i 1492 00:57:55,044 --> 00:57:59,251 [zaza]: mean i love my cousins but dramatically it doesn't really justify achilles's 1493 00:57:59,220 --> 00:57:59,446 [peter_struck]: oh 1494 00:57:59,511 --> 00:58:00,994 [zaza]: rage in the film so 1495 00:58:00,951 --> 00:58:00,971 [peter_struck]: i 1496 00:58:01,074 --> 00:58:04,560 [zaza]: it all ends up being quite lifeless somehow so 1497 00:58:04,510 --> 00:58:04,672 [peter_struck]: right 1498 00:58:05,282 --> 00:58:10,624 [zaza]: do you think hollywood has problems with re telling these stories the big screen 1499 00:58:10,632 --> 00:58:13,879 [peter_struck]: well yeah that's it's all it's a great question 1500 00:58:14,236 --> 00:58:14,481 [zaza]: sure 1501 00:58:15,584 --> 00:58:18,430 [peter_struck]: it seems to me and it's true is 1502 00:58:18,481 --> 00:58:19,261 [zaza]: yeah 1503 00:58:18,631 --> 00:58:23,839 [peter_struck]: particularly an each time i go through particularly the oddisy that it is welcoming a 1504 00:58:23,899 --> 00:58:26,724 [peter_struck]: kind of cynematic treatment that would just retell 1505 00:58:26,493 --> 00:58:26,878 [zaza]: exactly 1506 00:58:26,804 --> 00:58:30,991 [peter_struck]: homer in that in that way and like why not tell us great story um 1507 00:58:31,321 --> 00:58:31,506 [zaza]: oh 1508 00:58:31,412 --> 00:58:35,218 [peter_struck]: the iliad as well you've got this wonderful til trojan war and you have achilles 1509 00:58:35,278 --> 00:58:41,649 [peter_struck]: is a very compelling figure but holly wood knows that the culture with which it 1510 00:58:42,130 --> 00:58:42,310 [peter_struck]: ling 1511 00:58:42,241 --> 00:58:42,526 [zaza]: yes 1512 00:58:42,771 --> 00:58:43,652 [peter_struck]: and hollywood knows 1513 00:58:43,401 --> 00:58:43,522 [zaza]: oh 1514 00:58:43,692 --> 00:58:48,721 [peter_struck]: the culture with which it's dealing very well they've been making up stories for an 1515 00:58:48,861 --> 00:58:49,762 [peter_struck]: evolving audience 1516 00:58:49,413 --> 00:58:49,534 [zaza]: oh 1517 00:58:50,383 --> 00:58:56,494 [peter_struck]: for centuries and there is in any area of great economic consequence in a society 1518 00:58:56,914 --> 00:58:57,836 [peter_struck]: there's a lot of folks 1519 00:58:57,661 --> 00:58:58,711 [zaza]: yeah 1520 00:58:57,896 --> 00:59:02,103 [peter_struck]: directing talent to figure out exactly what the audience wants to see um so i 1521 00:59:02,223 --> 00:59:02,524 [peter_struck]: trust that 1522 00:59:02,534 --> 00:59:02,699 [zaza]: yes 1523 00:59:02,564 --> 00:59:05,469 [peter_struck]: they know their audience and when they're telling these stories they think that that's going 1524 00:59:05,509 --> 00:59:08,873 [peter_struck]: to work better or the audience from something else and when you look at the 1525 00:59:08,973 --> 00:59:09,533 [peter_struck]: troy version 1526 00:59:09,502 --> 00:59:09,522 [zaza]: a 1527 00:59:09,593 --> 00:59:14,419 [peter_struck]: for example the troy movie of peterson two to four i believe maybe to go 1528 00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:19,567 [peter_struck]: anyway the wolf game person troy you've got this achilles 1529 00:59:19,762 --> 00:59:19,924 [zaza]: yes 1530 00:59:19,767 --> 00:59:21,770 [peter_struck]: that shows up and in some ways he passes 1531 00:59:21,653 --> 00:59:21,854 [zaza]: brat 1532 00:59:21,831 --> 00:59:22,011 [peter_struck]: on to 1533 00:59:21,975 --> 00:59:22,176 [zaza]: pit 1534 00:59:22,071 --> 00:59:22,291 [peter_struck]: the old 1535 00:59:22,377 --> 00:59:22,578 [zaza]: right 1536 00:59:22,912 --> 00:59:23,213 [peter_struck]: brad 1537 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:23,100 [zaza]: yeah 1538 00:59:23,313 --> 00:59:24,255 [peter_struck]: bit and in some ways 1539 00:59:24,226 --> 00:59:24,347 [zaza]: yeah 1540 00:59:24,295 --> 00:59:27,881 [peter_struck]: he passes on to the old one he's easy on the eyes um 1541 00:59:27,781 --> 00:59:28,122 [zaza]: yeah 1542 00:59:28,101 --> 00:59:30,445 [peter_struck]: he's extremely fit he moves 1543 00:59:30,255 --> 00:59:30,375 [zaza]: yeah 1544 00:59:30,505 --> 00:59:35,594 [peter_struck]: like brishnacof all of that is kind of appiale on to ancient achilles but he's 1545 00:59:35,734 --> 00:59:40,806 [peter_struck]: also in in the movie he's dissolute he it's too much she sleeps with women 1546 00:59:41,047 --> 00:59:41,769 [peter_struck]: all over the place 1547 00:59:42,511 --> 00:59:42,753 [zaza]: yeah 1548 00:59:42,552 --> 00:59:46,973 [peter_struck]: he's irreligious he doesn't believe in the gods and he thinks the gods are kind 1549 00:59:47,034 --> 00:59:51,741 [peter_struck]: of superstitious vestige of some old order that they're growing out of now because of 1550 00:59:51,822 --> 00:59:58,453 [peter_struck]: some enlighten thing that's happening um none of these map on to ancient achilles at 1551 00:59:58,513 --> 00:59:58,673 [peter_struck]: all 1552 00:59:58,621 --> 00:59:58,866 [zaza]: oh 1553 00:59:59,434 --> 01:00:00,336 [peter_struck]: and then the driving 1554 01:00:00,121 --> 01:00:00,383 [zaza]: that's the 1555 01:00:00,396 --> 01:00:04,423 [peter_struck]: thing that really pushes the movie and pushes achilles to do what he does 1556 01:00:04,654 --> 01:00:04,840 [zaza]: yeah 1557 01:00:05,344 --> 01:00:09,631 [peter_struck]: is heterasexual romantic pair bonding um 1558 01:00:09,611 --> 01:00:10,233 [zaza]: with brasses 1559 01:00:09,872 --> 01:00:10,012 [peter_struck]: so 1560 01:00:10,534 --> 01:00:10,614 [zaza]: or 1561 01:00:10,833 --> 01:00:11,454 [peter_struck]: brasses 1562 01:00:10,915 --> 01:00:11,076 [zaza]: yeah 1563 01:00:11,655 --> 01:00:15,241 [peter_struck]: in the in detroit movie is the kind of key falcromthat moves things forward and 1564 01:00:15,281 --> 01:00:18,446 [peter_struck]: there's a lot of reasons that hollywood wants to tell that version you can have 1565 01:00:18,506 --> 01:00:23,915 [peter_struck]: a strong female character now and the barselis in de troy movie they make their 1566 01:00:23,975 --> 01:00:27,661 [peter_struck]: attempt to make her to have her own agency in their own voice and great 1567 01:00:27,822 --> 01:00:28,423 [peter_struck]: like i'm not against 1568 01:00:28,844 --> 01:00:28,865 [zaza]: a 1569 01:00:29,104 --> 01:00:31,007 [peter_struck]: that's that's great but what 1570 01:00:30,961 --> 01:00:31,202 [zaza]: oh 1571 01:00:31,187 --> 01:00:36,696 [peter_struck]: we wind up with is it a war story in which love conquers all love 1572 01:00:36,756 --> 01:00:41,464 [peter_struck]: in this sense of henerosexual parabongmentic love because achilles does everything he does for love 1573 01:00:41,705 --> 01:00:46,393 [peter_struck]: it also cast a new away i'm thinking about the helen version of the 1574 01:00:46,351 --> 01:00:47,491 [zaza]: yeah 1575 01:00:46,433 --> 01:00:54,356 [peter_struck]: story in the ell you had helen paris their love affair is just annoying and 1576 01:00:54,476 --> 01:00:56,539 [peter_struck]: everyone's annoyed by it why in the 1577 01:00:56,543 --> 01:00:56,563 [zaza]: i 1578 01:00:56,620 --> 01:01:01,648 [peter_struck]: world did their mistakes lead us to this war that is annoying to every 1579 01:01:01,681 --> 01:01:01,906 [zaza]: ye 1580 01:01:01,748 --> 01:01:08,308 [peter_struck]: single person in the epic um in the modern one that they're given a pass 1581 01:01:09,250 --> 01:01:13,858 [peter_struck]: and they're given a pass because as priam says peter tool in the movie um 1582 01:01:14,379 --> 01:01:15,540 [peter_struck]: i sensed a change 1583 01:01:15,421 --> 01:01:15,882 [zaza]: oh 1584 01:01:15,681 --> 01:01:19,707 [peter_struck]: in him because he's now truly in love so as long as paris and helen 1585 01:01:19,747 --> 01:01:25,217 [peter_struck]: are truly in love then wars whatever happens has to happen after that but the 1586 01:01:25,537 --> 01:01:30,385 [peter_struck]: most important thing is that they're truly in love so their heterosexual romantic pair bondo 1587 01:01:30,465 --> 01:01:31,928 [peter_struck]: love is 1588 01:01:32,461 --> 01:01:32,682 [zaza]: oh 1589 01:01:33,170 --> 01:01:34,151 [peter_struck]: the explanation 1590 01:01:34,254 --> 01:01:34,375 [zaza]: ye 1591 01:01:34,752 --> 01:01:36,936 [peter_struck]: and a reasonable enough explanation for 1592 01:01:36,961 --> 01:01:37,182 [zaza]: oh 1593 01:01:37,036 --> 01:01:44,389 [peter_struck]: all this faulty rob and then you've got achilles doing his thing too so hollywood 1594 01:01:44,332 --> 01:01:44,413 [zaza]: no 1595 01:01:44,429 --> 01:01:47,952 [peter_struck]: tells a story which guess what love conquers all and it's 1596 01:01:47,962 --> 01:01:48,084 [zaza]: yeah 1597 01:01:48,012 --> 01:01:51,015 [peter_struck]: not just sort of liking someone else and all the good stuff in the world 1598 01:01:51,636 --> 01:01:54,579 [peter_struck]: you know what love is a broad term is particularly 1599 01:01:54,451 --> 01:01:54,554 [zaza]: ye 1600 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,685 [peter_struck]: a sexual parent body romantic love that's sex based 1601 01:01:58,662 --> 01:01:58,783 [zaza]: yeah 1602 01:01:58,825 --> 01:02:00,388 [peter_struck]: like involves sex that's 1603 01:02:00,481 --> 01:02:00,682 [zaza]: yes 1604 01:02:00,508 --> 01:02:04,154 [peter_struck]: the kind of love that conquers everything and boys got a hollywood theme 1605 01:02:04,441 --> 01:02:04,641 [zaza]: yeah 1606 01:02:04,695 --> 01:02:09,631 [peter_struck]: and boys at an american obsession you know so there you go and we're going 1607 01:02:09,872 --> 01:02:12,496 [peter_struck]: now we re tell the ancient materials that's the conon stories we're going to tell 1608 01:02:13,297 --> 01:02:14,099 [peter_struck]: so so it goes 1609 01:02:14,921 --> 01:02:15,582 [zaza]: yeah you're you're kind 1610 01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:16,230 [peter_struck]: yeah 1611 01:02:15,602 --> 01:02:18,427 [zaza]: of right now that they think about it like helen is just like prancing around 1612 01:02:18,487 --> 01:02:20,310 [zaza]: and everybody is so nice to her and then 1613 01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:20,861 [peter_struck]: yeah 1614 01:02:20,731 --> 01:02:24,317 [zaza]: they look over the walls and there's like a thousand greek ships there and they're 1615 01:02:24,377 --> 01:02:28,568 [zaza]: like i don't worry about that just enjoy your romance with with paris it's all 1616 01:02:28,608 --> 01:02:28,769 [zaza]: good 1617 01:02:28,844 --> 01:02:31,228 [peter_struck]: yeah yeah we have to fight we have to fight 1618 01:02:31,353 --> 01:02:31,494 [zaza]: yeah 1619 01:02:31,449 --> 01:02:34,714 [peter_struck]: and then the contemporary version does put sort of honor 1620 01:02:34,831 --> 01:02:35,052 [zaza]: oh 1621 01:02:34,834 --> 01:02:39,041 [peter_struck]: stuff in the mix and they also claim that achilles is greedy perialist and that's 1622 01:02:39,101 --> 01:02:40,944 [peter_struck]: of course a bad thing for a contemporary hollywood 1623 01:02:41,554 --> 01:02:41,777 [zaza]: okay 1624 01:02:41,726 --> 01:02:43,869 [peter_struck]: so you know t's a land acquisition 1625 01:02:43,542 --> 01:02:43,725 [zaza]: is the 1626 01:02:43,969 --> 01:02:46,393 [peter_struck]: thing so there's this kind of subterranean 1627 01:02:46,171 --> 01:02:47,131 [zaza]: yeah 1628 01:02:46,514 --> 01:02:48,938 [peter_struck]: undercurrent now again none of that stuff 1629 01:02:49,004 --> 01:02:49,106 [zaza]: oh 1630 01:02:49,058 --> 01:02:50,040 [peter_struck]: has ancient press 1631 01:02:50,851 --> 01:02:50,971 [zaza]: yeah 1632 01:02:51,001 --> 01:02:55,729 [peter_struck]: agamemnon is not a land grabbing imperialist he just has to go fight this fight 1633 01:02:55,829 --> 01:03:00,216 [peter_struck]: because his brother his wife got messed with and he doesn't 1634 01:03:00,091 --> 01:03:00,334 [zaza]: oh 1635 01:03:00,257 --> 01:03:01,919 [peter_struck]: want to go do and he has to go do it and he has to 1636 01:03:01,959 --> 01:03:05,485 [peter_struck]: cry these people and of course there's money at stake and obviously there is this 1637 01:03:05,565 --> 01:03:09,452 [peter_struck]: is standard hero stuff to get your fortune you don't sort 1638 01:03:09,481 --> 01:03:09,501 [zaza]: m 1639 01:03:09,492 --> 01:03:11,676 [peter_struck]: of earn it at market to get your fortune 1640 01:03:11,705 --> 01:03:11,725 [zaza]: h 1641 01:03:11,736 --> 01:03:12,517 [peter_struck]: you club other 1642 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:12,541 [zaza]: m 1643 01:03:12,537 --> 01:03:15,521 [peter_struck]: people and take their stuff and then build really high walls with the wealth of 1644 01:03:15,561 --> 01:03:17,363 [peter_struck]: that issue so that other people can't take your stuff 1645 01:03:17,311 --> 01:03:17,572 [zaza]: oh 1646 01:03:18,305 --> 01:03:22,780 [peter_struck]: and you know whoever pile is highest is the mono my 1647 01:03:23,641 --> 01:03:24,331 [zaza]: yes 1648 01:03:23,983 --> 01:03:25,166 [peter_struck]: you know most martial of the 1649 01:03:25,171 --> 01:03:25,758 [zaza]: ye 1650 01:03:25,206 --> 01:03:32,329 [peter_struck]: men and work in a world that answers to that stuff mostly and you know 1651 01:03:32,493 --> 01:03:32,677 [zaza]: yeah 1652 01:03:33,451 --> 01:03:36,376 [peter_struck]: some of these pieces obviously could translate it to the conteporate audience but 1653 01:03:36,383 --> 01:03:36,549 [zaza]: yes 1654 01:03:36,756 --> 01:03:40,745 [peter_struck]: be very hard to translate it all the is much darker than a story that 1655 01:03:40,785 --> 01:03:41,628 [peter_struck]: hollywood wants to tell 1656 01:03:41,941 --> 01:03:49,353 [zaza]: yeah um do we have anything resembling mythology of our own these days because it 1657 01:03:49,413 --> 01:03:49,714 [zaza]: doesn't 1658 01:03:49,592 --> 01:03:49,776 [peter_struck]: yeah 1659 01:03:49,834 --> 01:03:53,780 [zaza]: seem like it at first glance i mean we have pop culture but this hardly 1660 01:03:53,981 --> 01:03:58,361 [zaza]: it's like some sort of larger than life transcendent frame of reference 1661 01:03:58,330 --> 01:04:01,335 [peter_struck]: it's a it's a great question and i am 1662 01:04:01,501 --> 01:04:01,744 [zaza]: oh 1663 01:04:01,716 --> 01:04:05,782 [peter_struck]: struggling with my own answer to this as i as i moved through the book 1664 01:04:05,863 --> 01:04:09,469 [peter_struck]: i'm working on on this is going to have to come to some reckoning with 1665 01:04:09,509 --> 01:04:11,472 [peter_struck]: that um the 1666 01:04:11,941 --> 01:04:12,223 [zaza]: yes 1667 01:04:13,055 --> 01:04:13,656 [peter_struck]: problem for me 1668 01:04:13,651 --> 01:04:13,936 [zaza]: yes 1669 01:04:13,796 --> 01:04:17,482 [peter_struck]: is that myth starts to be looked at as a kind of honorific title 1670 01:04:17,785 --> 01:04:17,806 [zaza]: i 1671 01:04:17,903 --> 01:04:21,409 [peter_struck]: that's given to the most important stories and if you start to say things like 1672 01:04:21,629 --> 01:04:24,494 [peter_struck]: you know what out of hollow it can't be missed people start to think oh 1673 01:04:24,614 --> 01:04:31,405 [peter_struck]: so you're claiming that it's not important and to be critical of contemporary pop culture 1674 01:04:31,231 --> 01:04:31,473 [zaza]: yeah 1675 01:04:32,207 --> 01:04:32,427 [peter_struck]: in my 1676 01:04:32,401 --> 01:04:32,542 [zaza]: ye 1677 01:04:32,507 --> 01:04:33,889 [peter_struck]: world is an occupational hazard 1678 01:04:34,351 --> 01:04:34,551 [zaza]: yeah 1679 01:04:34,490 --> 01:04:39,357 [peter_struck]: at least in america people will instantly label you as an litist etcetera editor 1680 01:04:39,391 --> 01:04:39,714 [zaza]: oh 1681 01:04:41,140 --> 01:04:45,327 [peter_struck]: i mean you know i'm imagine how that it goes from there so we 1682 01:04:45,781 --> 01:04:46,501 [zaza]: yeah 1683 01:04:46,348 --> 01:04:47,610 [peter_struck]: are i'm cautious 1684 01:04:47,264 --> 01:04:47,326 [zaza]: the 1685 01:04:47,711 --> 01:04:47,811 [peter_struck]: to 1686 01:04:47,851 --> 01:04:48,135 [zaza]: yes 1687 01:04:48,131 --> 01:04:51,998 [peter_struck]: get to stay away from that kind of debate because i don't really 1688 01:04:51,962 --> 01:04:52,124 [zaza]: yes 1689 01:04:52,378 --> 01:04:54,302 [peter_struck]: think that what i'm talking 1690 01:04:54,121 --> 01:04:55,201 [zaza]: oh 1691 01:04:54,362 --> 01:05:00,812 [peter_struck]: about is some story that i decide on my own recognizance to place a label 1692 01:05:01,073 --> 01:05:05,783 [peter_struck]: on that you know earns its place in the category 1693 01:05:05,813 --> 01:05:05,998 [zaza]: yes 1694 01:05:05,924 --> 01:05:12,132 [peter_struck]: of myth that we're defining here and let me just 1695 01:05:12,361 --> 01:05:12,671 [zaza]: oh 1696 01:05:12,392 --> 01:05:15,017 [peter_struck]: one other little piece to the story and then we can get to the next 1697 01:05:15,077 --> 01:05:19,083 [peter_struck]: stage of however you want to get into it but the the idea that 1698 01:05:19,171 --> 01:05:19,191 [zaza]: a 1699 01:05:19,384 --> 01:05:25,801 [peter_struck]: miss exists in some sort of abstract pere at table of cultural expression that it's 1700 01:05:25,821 --> 01:05:26,403 [peter_struck]: just out there 1701 01:05:26,313 --> 01:05:26,495 [zaza]: just 1702 01:05:26,463 --> 01:05:31,410 [peter_struck]: as a phenomenon in the world is like a reality you know like like nickel 1703 01:05:31,851 --> 01:05:31,951 [peter_struck]: or 1704 01:05:31,921 --> 01:05:31,941 [zaza]: m 1705 01:05:32,512 --> 01:05:38,462 [peter_struck]: silver or plutonium or you know just out there as a reality that's not true 1706 01:05:38,823 --> 01:05:41,066 [peter_struck]: in fact is a human cultural creation 1707 01:05:41,183 --> 01:05:41,348 [zaza]: yes 1708 01:05:42,068 --> 01:05:47,838 [peter_struck]: and the stuff applied that label mist to is human cultural creations that didn't call 1709 01:05:47,898 --> 01:05:52,546 [peter_struck]: themselves miss they didn't wake up one day and say hey look we're miss it's 1710 01:05:52,606 --> 01:05:57,394 [peter_struck]: just this is a container that again existed in antiquity it was re invented for 1711 01:05:57,434 --> 01:06:01,500 [peter_struck]: the modern world in the middle of seventeen late seventeen hundred by a figure called 1712 01:06:01,581 --> 01:06:04,145 [peter_struck]: hina and it gets 1713 01:06:05,131 --> 01:06:05,533 [zaza]: oh 1714 01:06:05,768 --> 01:06:09,435 [peter_struck]: defined and populated cording to the use value of the definition that we bring out 1715 01:06:09,516 --> 01:06:14,364 [peter_struck]: for it so with that as preamble i would say when i'm going to treat 1716 01:06:14,445 --> 01:06:18,371 [peter_struck]: this in the in the book that's coming up i'm going to look at these 1717 01:06:18,692 --> 01:06:23,620 [peter_struck]: deep this narratives from deep antiquity that are focused on it's a 1718 01:06:23,611 --> 01:06:23,813 [zaza]: yes 1719 01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:28,388 [peter_struck]: central concern for the culture that for me is the sort of best way of 1720 01:06:28,488 --> 01:06:30,111 [peter_struck]: thinking about it and 1721 01:06:30,181 --> 01:06:30,846 [zaza]: yeah 1722 01:06:30,591 --> 01:06:35,500 [peter_struck]: there will be further manifestations that are definitely mystic in other words they work in 1723 01:06:35,540 --> 01:06:39,126 [peter_struck]: that same territory and i would call the troy mythic in that sense it's working 1724 01:06:38,922 --> 01:06:39,188 [zaza]: yes 1725 01:06:39,186 --> 01:06:43,092 [peter_struck]: with me but i wouldn't call it myth and the problem is that doesn't grow 1726 01:06:43,233 --> 01:06:44,455 [peter_struck]: to have social authority 1727 01:06:45,204 --> 01:06:45,245 [zaza]: hm 1728 01:06:45,657 --> 01:06:46,298 [peter_struck]: it needs to have 1729 01:06:46,300 --> 01:06:46,321 [zaza]: m 1730 01:06:46,398 --> 01:06:47,279 [peter_struck]: social authority 1731 01:06:46,891 --> 01:06:48,241 [zaza]: yeah 1732 01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,984 [peter_struck]: i took to take the place of that so yeah i think that we 1733 01:06:50,241 --> 01:06:50,261 [zaza]: i 1734 01:06:50,465 --> 01:06:53,610 [peter_struck]: probably do want to talk 1735 01:06:53,581 --> 01:06:53,863 [zaza]: oh 1736 01:06:53,690 --> 01:06:57,396 [peter_struck]: about methods of on going down the one category that's currently being invented and re 1737 01:06:57,456 --> 01:06:59,840 [peter_struck]: invented and not just along the lines of the materials 1738 01:07:00,053 --> 01:07:00,235 [zaza]: yes 1739 01:07:00,321 --> 01:07:03,827 [peter_struck]: but even maybe along contemporary lines as well but we have to find 1740 01:07:03,721 --> 01:07:04,561 [zaza]: yeah 1741 01:07:03,927 --> 01:07:08,294 [peter_struck]: something that has deep and broad cultural turarity i'm also going to push a certain 1742 01:07:08,334 --> 01:07:09,096 [peter_struck]: line of kind of 1743 01:07:09,181 --> 01:07:09,201 [zaza]: m 1744 01:07:09,216 --> 01:07:12,982 [peter_struck]: questions that answers and these are questions of fundamental 1745 01:07:12,736 --> 01:07:12,818 [zaza]: as 1746 01:07:13,062 --> 01:07:13,944 [peter_struck]: human experiences 1747 01:07:14,161 --> 01:07:14,181 [zaza]: m 1748 01:07:14,665 --> 01:07:19,172 [peter_struck]: fundamental human experience so where do we come from why are we here why is 1749 01:07:19,233 --> 01:07:22,839 [peter_struck]: the universe here why do we have to die what's the point of being alive 1750 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:28,067 [peter_struck]: these are the questions these ancient narratives go at um and i won't see 1751 01:07:27,991 --> 01:07:28,435 [zaza]: yes 1752 01:07:28,127 --> 01:07:30,471 [peter_struck]: all all the cultures that we look at but in many of the cultures that 1753 01:07:30,491 --> 01:07:31,733 [peter_struck]: we have evidence for these are the 1754 01:07:31,681 --> 01:07:32,401 [zaza]: oh 1755 01:07:31,793 --> 01:07:32,515 [peter_struck]: central questions 1756 01:07:32,611 --> 01:07:33,961 [zaza]: oh 1757 01:07:33,216 --> 01:07:34,177 [peter_struck]: um and 1758 01:07:34,261 --> 01:07:34,951 [zaza]: yeah 1759 01:07:34,899 --> 01:07:38,204 [peter_struck]: we sun times will say all of those ancients they just told these facial stories 1760 01:07:38,244 --> 01:07:44,054 [peter_struck]: cobitinifie well guess what our science and i am a like a arm chair 1761 01:07:44,172 --> 01:07:44,337 [zaza]: yes 1762 01:07:44,535 --> 01:07:48,241 [peter_struck]: science buff like i'm thrilled by what my colleagues are i out in kind of 1763 01:07:48,281 --> 01:07:48,642 [peter_struck]: science 1764 01:07:48,511 --> 01:07:49,231 [zaza]: yeah 1765 01:07:48,702 --> 01:07:54,712 [peter_struck]: and the den material the blood analysis what's happening in broader physics cosmology you 1766 01:07:54,661 --> 01:07:55,321 [zaza]: yeah 1767 01:07:54,752 --> 01:07:56,214 [peter_struck]: know i'm a tourist in this 1768 01:07:56,201 --> 01:07:56,342 [zaza]: what 1769 01:07:56,274 --> 01:07:59,860 [peter_struck]: world so i'm not claiming expertise but i'm lowed by what we do i doubt 1770 01:08:00,401 --> 01:08:06,191 [peter_struck]: but i for myself have not seen answers to the questions that are getting clearer 1771 01:08:06,591 --> 01:08:07,373 [peter_struck]: even incrementally 1772 01:08:07,406 --> 01:08:07,549 [zaza]: thank 1773 01:08:07,994 --> 01:08:10,017 [peter_struck]: about where do we come from why we hear 1774 01:08:09,863 --> 01:08:09,883 [zaza]: a 1775 01:08:10,378 --> 01:08:13,102 [peter_struck]: what's the point of the univers why is the universe here why do we have 1776 01:08:13,142 --> 01:08:15,987 [peter_struck]: to die those are questions that are 1777 01:08:15,913 --> 01:08:17,071 [zaza]: okay 1778 01:08:16,067 --> 01:08:16,909 [peter_struck]: still just 1779 01:08:17,161 --> 01:08:18,091 [zaza]: yeah 1780 01:08:17,209 --> 01:08:19,273 [peter_struck]: as vibrant and sometimes 1781 01:08:18,931 --> 01:08:19,132 [zaza]: yes 1782 01:08:19,353 --> 01:08:25,603 [peter_struck]: very urgent in our contemporary world and i think actually were probably not 1783 01:08:26,092 --> 01:08:26,112 [zaza]: a 1784 01:08:26,244 --> 01:08:29,129 [peter_struck]: it's surely case we're no better off in our understanding 1785 01:08:28,660 --> 01:08:28,681 [zaza]: m 1786 01:08:29,189 --> 01:08:32,054 [peter_struck]: of those fundamental questions do we have souls is there a god 1787 01:08:32,221 --> 01:08:32,989 [zaza]: ye 1788 01:08:32,675 --> 01:08:36,361 [peter_struck]: come on we're no better off in our understanding of those question even despite our 1789 01:08:36,722 --> 01:08:40,829 [peter_struck]: trillions of terrible to of stuff we've generated of new knowledge we're no closer to 1790 01:08:40,889 --> 01:08:42,531 [peter_struck]: answering those questions and in some ways 1791 01:08:42,423 --> 01:08:42,443 [zaza]: i 1792 01:08:42,912 --> 01:08:46,558 [peter_struck]: i think we're actually a little farther away and our problem i think now is 1793 01:08:46,578 --> 01:08:50,071 [peter_struck]: that we undervalue or finnorits when we undervalue 1794 01:08:49,654 --> 01:08:49,715 [zaza]: hm 1795 01:08:50,211 --> 01:08:53,076 [peter_struck]: our ignorance we think oh we've got the answers to these questions or they're just 1796 01:08:53,116 --> 01:08:53,637 [peter_struck]: around the corner 1797 01:08:53,461 --> 01:08:54,151 [zaza]: yeah 1798 01:08:54,098 --> 01:08:58,385 [peter_struck]: i don't know how often i've heard coming out of silk and belly that the 1799 01:08:58,485 --> 01:09:00,248 [peter_struck]: singularity is just around the corner 1800 01:09:00,721 --> 01:09:01,621 [zaza]: yeah 1801 01:09:01,330 --> 01:09:02,912 [peter_struck]: here in after twenty years and 1802 01:09:03,070 --> 01:09:03,091 [zaza]: m 1803 01:09:03,093 --> 01:09:03,213 [peter_struck]: that 1804 01:09:03,211 --> 01:09:03,455 [zaza]: yeah 1805 01:09:03,273 --> 01:09:07,300 [peter_struck]: means of course that machines are going to become conscious and ned invented consciousness i 1806 01:09:07,380 --> 01:09:08,181 [peter_struck]: even saw a headline 1807 01:09:08,251 --> 01:09:08,657 [zaza]: oh 1808 01:09:08,462 --> 01:09:11,547 [peter_struck]: that google has invented consciousness okay 1809 01:09:12,162 --> 01:09:12,969 [zaza]: uh yeah 1810 01:09:12,849 --> 01:09:14,732 [peter_struck]: i'm not going my breath i'm not goin t hold my breath 1811 01:09:14,851 --> 01:09:15,098 [zaza]: yes 1812 01:09:15,353 --> 01:09:16,034 [peter_struck]: declaim there 1813 01:09:16,132 --> 01:09:16,213 [zaza]: he 1814 01:09:16,255 --> 01:09:20,742 [peter_struck]: obviously is that then we would have some mastery over what consciousness is because we 1815 01:09:20,782 --> 01:09:24,428 [peter_struck]: can produce it in manipulation engineer it and should that happen that would be pretty 1816 01:09:24,468 --> 01:09:25,770 [peter_struck]: amazing and yet that 1817 01:09:25,771 --> 01:09:25,973 [zaza]: yes 1818 01:09:25,810 --> 01:09:27,453 [peter_struck]: would get some way to the question of what 1819 01:09:27,541 --> 01:09:28,171 [zaza]: yeah 1820 01:09:27,553 --> 01:09:28,715 [peter_struck]: consciousness is all about 1821 01:09:29,461 --> 01:09:29,744 [zaza]: oh 1822 01:09:29,897 --> 01:09:32,802 [peter_struck]: some way to answering that question but again i don't know i would answer the 1823 01:09:32,842 --> 01:09:33,864 [peter_struck]: others and i 1824 01:09:33,931 --> 01:09:34,501 [zaza]: you 1825 01:09:33,964 --> 01:09:37,510 [peter_struck]: also don't think it's kind of happened and i 1826 01:09:37,851 --> 01:09:37,871 [zaza]: a 1827 01:09:38,211 --> 01:09:42,298 [peter_struck]: not based on expertise and i ll have those that know some of these worlds 1828 01:09:42,398 --> 01:09:44,962 [peter_struck]: very well that will claim that now we really are just around the 1829 01:09:44,953 --> 01:09:45,179 [zaza]: okay 1830 01:09:45,022 --> 01:09:46,745 [peter_struck]: corner this time but 1831 01:09:46,711 --> 01:09:47,701 [zaza]: oh 1832 01:09:46,825 --> 01:09:50,798 [peter_struck]: i get a little scots call felt that of telling you that indifferen versions for 1833 01:09:50,958 --> 01:09:52,768 [peter_struck]: twenty years just about to happen 1834 01:09:54,001 --> 01:09:54,282 [zaza]: yeah 1835 01:09:54,051 --> 01:09:58,230 [peter_struck]: hold your horses here we go m m 1836 01:09:59,222 --> 01:10:06,454 [zaza]: all right wow this hour flew by really fast the name of this podcastthis euro 1837 01:10:06,554 --> 01:10:10,040 [zaza]: trash which means i have to ask you something a bit more trashy at the 1838 01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:10,300 [zaza]: end 1839 01:10:11,020 --> 01:10:11,343 [peter_struck]: okay 1840 01:10:11,501 --> 01:10:14,506 [zaza]: many famous mythological names were mentioned 1841 01:10:14,190 --> 01:10:14,536 [peter_struck]: oh 1842 01:10:14,606 --> 01:10:18,853 [zaza]: during this conversation and yet we failed to give our proper 1843 01:10:18,813 --> 01:10:18,834 [peter_struck]: m 1844 01:10:18,893 --> 01:10:20,135 [zaza]: respect to one of the most 1845 01:10:20,109 --> 01:10:20,130 [peter_struck]: m 1846 01:10:20,356 --> 01:10:24,051 [zaza]: famous ones and that is of course zeno the war our princess 1847 01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:24,950 [peter_struck]: oh 1848 01:10:25,261 --> 01:10:30,617 [zaza]: um how high does she rank amongst your list of the most bad as greek 1849 01:10:30,698 --> 01:10:31,059 [zaza]: heroes 1850 01:10:32,140 --> 01:10:33,923 [peter_struck]: very high zena is magnificent 1851 01:10:33,442 --> 01:10:33,646 [zaza]: yes 1852 01:10:34,524 --> 01:10:34,724 [peter_struck]: um 1853 01:10:35,001 --> 01:10:35,483 [zaza]: absolutely 1854 01:10:35,125 --> 01:10:35,726 [peter_struck]: and much more 1855 01:10:35,704 --> 01:10:35,744 [zaza]: i 1856 01:10:35,746 --> 01:10:36,067 [peter_struck]: interesting 1857 01:10:35,804 --> 01:10:36,025 [zaza]: agree 1858 01:10:36,107 --> 01:10:38,811 [peter_struck]: than than her side kick hercules um 1859 01:10:38,971 --> 01:10:39,212 [zaza]: oh 1860 01:10:40,494 --> 01:10:43,740 [peter_struck]: i like her because there's a purity to her i mean there there are class 1861 01:10:43,583 --> 01:10:43,725 [zaza]: yeah 1862 01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:44,100 [peter_struck]: and she 1863 01:10:44,281 --> 01:10:44,503 [zaza]: yeah 1864 01:10:44,300 --> 01:10:46,284 [peter_struck]: said we talk about her amilyzoniand i think 1865 01:10:46,259 --> 01:10:46,400 [zaza]: yeah 1866 01:10:46,364 --> 01:10:50,050 [peter_struck]: probe legacy i'm sorry we lost on a detail a little bit but she 1867 01:10:50,092 --> 01:10:50,213 [zaza]: ah 1868 01:10:50,110 --> 01:10:54,598 [peter_struck]: gets to be a kind of pure contemporary concoction that doesn't have to answer to 1869 01:10:54,658 --> 01:10:56,160 [peter_struck]: ancient traditions or worry about 1870 01:10:56,101 --> 01:10:56,322 [zaza]: yeah 1871 01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:59,483 [peter_struck]: having to remake them she can just be made up out of whole cloth and 1872 01:10:59,643 --> 01:11:02,286 [peter_struck]: she goes around just clarry people it's marvelous 1873 01:11:02,221 --> 01:11:02,402 [zaza]: yeah 1874 01:11:02,326 --> 01:11:07,362 [peter_struck]: to watch that happen class there's a thrill i mean this is probably getting further 1875 01:11:07,462 --> 01:11:10,467 [peter_struck]: into the weed but you've invited me on the trash plank so i'll just walk 1876 01:11:10,527 --> 01:11:11,469 [peter_struck]: down it a little bit here 1877 01:11:11,999 --> 01:11:12,402 [zaza]: please do 1878 01:11:12,451 --> 01:11:14,234 [peter_struck]: the sort 1879 01:11:14,251 --> 01:11:15,301 [zaza]: yeah 1880 01:11:14,294 --> 01:11:21,666 [peter_struck]: of remember that the folks that make up sort of comic book zone of american 1881 01:11:21,886 --> 01:11:22,527 [peter_struck]: pop culture 1882 01:11:22,891 --> 01:11:23,581 [zaza]: yeah 1883 01:11:23,789 --> 01:11:25,572 [peter_struck]: and matching on to the 1884 01:11:25,583 --> 01:11:26,371 [zaza]: just 1885 01:11:25,833 --> 01:11:27,976 [peter_struck]: sort of nifkikezone of people 1886 01:11:28,021 --> 01:11:28,282 [zaza]: oh 1887 01:11:28,257 --> 01:11:31,001 [peter_struck]: and probably dungeons and dragon that old fantasy 1888 01:11:30,991 --> 01:11:31,292 [zaza]: yes 1889 01:11:31,162 --> 01:11:36,370 [peter_struck]: video game that turned into video stuff that that's probably the pool of male imaginations 1890 01:11:36,431 --> 01:11:37,011 [peter_struck]: we're dealing with 1891 01:11:37,531 --> 01:11:37,792 [zaza]: oh 1892 01:11:37,612 --> 01:11:43,022 [peter_struck]: and you know i am a geek with all the rest of them and include 1893 01:11:43,082 --> 01:11:46,127 [peter_struck]: myself probably in that company in which male geeks 1894 01:11:45,952 --> 01:11:46,154 [zaza]: this 1895 01:11:47,649 --> 01:11:50,935 [peter_struck]: their success with females is 1896 01:11:51,001 --> 01:11:52,891 [zaza]: yeah 1897 01:11:51,055 --> 01:11:54,260 [peter_struck]: more the zone of fantasy than ality 1898 01:11:54,061 --> 01:11:54,322 [zaza]: oh 1899 01:11:55,222 --> 01:11:58,788 [peter_struck]: so when these folks make up fantasy woman 1900 01:11:58,801 --> 01:11:59,285 [zaza]: oh 1901 01:11:59,970 --> 01:12:00,250 [peter_struck]: figure 1902 01:12:00,456 --> 01:12:00,597 [zaza]: yeah 1903 01:12:00,951 --> 01:12:05,779 [peter_struck]: female gendered figure they're going to make up one that is delightful to kind of 1904 01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:07,482 [peter_struck]: as kind a denominator of maleness 1905 01:12:08,011 --> 01:12:10,801 [zaza]: yeah 1906 01:12:08,324 --> 01:12:13,192 [peter_struck]: i'll let women when they make up the zena and you know maybe it's geology 1907 01:12:13,292 --> 01:12:14,434 [peter_struck]: go in her version 1908 01:12:14,622 --> 01:12:14,806 [zaza]: yes 1909 01:12:15,035 --> 01:12:16,117 [peter_struck]: of discussin recent 1910 01:12:16,832 --> 01:12:16,953 [zaza]: oh 1911 01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:19,823 [peter_struck]: amazon and amazonian 1912 01:12:19,291 --> 01:12:20,131 [zaza]: oh 1913 01:12:20,624 --> 01:12:24,811 [peter_struck]: accounts and thinks maybe that's kind of where we're going to go but that the 1914 01:12:24,891 --> 01:12:28,357 [peter_struck]: venus thing is very much of a male fantasy and lucy 1915 01:12:28,141 --> 01:12:29,701 [zaza]: yeah 1916 01:12:28,417 --> 01:12:31,542 [peter_struck]: lawless just portrays her wallestly she's magnificent 1917 01:12:31,421 --> 01:12:31,903 [zaza]: absolutely 1918 01:12:32,324 --> 01:12:32,544 [peter_struck]: you know 1919 01:12:32,485 --> 01:12:32,686 [zaza]: yes 1920 01:12:32,584 --> 01:12:35,289 [peter_struck]: i don't want to i don't want to say there's sort of no female gender 1921 01:12:36,431 --> 01:12:37,032 [peter_struck]: thrand in 1922 01:12:37,053 --> 01:12:37,277 [zaza]: nice 1923 01:12:37,072 --> 01:12:38,274 [peter_struck]: there that's being baked in that's 1924 01:12:38,101 --> 01:12:39,511 [zaza]: yeah 1925 01:12:38,534 --> 01:12:39,896 [peter_struck]: real en authentic and serious 1926 01:12:39,991 --> 01:12:40,272 [zaza]: yeah 1927 01:12:40,718 --> 01:12:43,222 [peter_struck]: so that's also interest but yeah she's just 1928 01:12:43,203 --> 01:12:43,366 [zaza]: yes 1929 01:12:43,563 --> 01:12:49,322 [peter_struck]: magnificent so cool and out i've seen her and she's much more interesting much more 1930 01:12:49,362 --> 01:12:50,102 [peter_struck]: interesting than kevin 1931 01:12:50,347 --> 01:12:50,467 [zaza]: yeah 1932 01:12:50,623 --> 01:12:50,923 [peter_struck]: kevin 1933 01:12:50,908 --> 01:12:51,028 [zaza]: yeah 1934 01:12:51,063 --> 01:12:53,867 [peter_struck]: sor bow as heracles oh god so bad 1935 01:12:53,921 --> 01:12:55,342 [zaza]: no no absolutely not 1936 01:12:55,749 --> 01:12:55,929 [peter_struck]: yeah 1937 01:12:55,982 --> 01:12:59,325 [zaza]: i mean to be to be fair i watched both but zena was clearly my 1938 01:12:59,546 --> 01:13:01,027 [zaza]: my favorite also she had 1939 01:13:00,895 --> 01:13:01,482 [peter_struck]: she's wonderful 1940 01:13:01,187 --> 01:13:06,793 [zaza]: amazing time travel abilities like one episode was set in the times of the romans 1941 01:13:06,913 --> 01:13:14,254 [zaza]: and then the next episode was set in just like ancient well what you might 1942 01:13:14,274 --> 01:13:17,219 [zaza]: call it like the hebrew bible like the old 1943 01:13:17,190 --> 01:13:17,432 [peter_struck]: oh 1944 01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:21,166 [zaza]: testament and then she would encounter david king david and stuff and they 1945 01:13:21,153 --> 01:13:21,295 [peter_struck]: that 1946 01:13:21,226 --> 01:13:23,089 [zaza]: had no regard for like thousands of years 1947 01:13:23,010 --> 01:13:23,030 [peter_struck]: m 1948 01:13:23,129 --> 01:13:25,894 [zaza]: they passed like it was very free flowing it was quite 1949 01:13:25,900 --> 01:13:26,120 [peter_struck]: sure 1950 01:13:25,975 --> 01:13:26,722 [zaza]: awesome i 1951 01:13:26,721 --> 01:13:26,881 [peter_struck]: well 1952 01:13:26,803 --> 01:13:27,045 [zaza]: agree 1953 01:13:26,921 --> 01:13:29,226 [peter_struck]: the past is one big mush when you're doing these 1954 01:13:29,091 --> 01:13:29,252 [zaza]: yeah 1955 01:13:29,266 --> 01:13:29,366 [peter_struck]: re 1956 01:13:29,372 --> 01:13:29,794 [zaza]: exactly 1957 01:13:29,426 --> 01:13:32,331 [peter_struck]: makings and you can draw from whatever you want because it's all back there 1958 01:13:32,543 --> 01:13:32,985 [zaza]: yeah we 1959 01:13:33,032 --> 01:13:33,112 [peter_struck]: the 1960 01:13:33,045 --> 01:13:33,125 [zaza]: can 1961 01:13:33,173 --> 01:13:33,413 [peter_struck]: figure 1962 01:13:33,226 --> 01:13:33,487 [zaza]: all learn 1963 01:13:33,473 --> 01:13:33,513 [peter_struck]: of 1964 01:13:33,547 --> 01:13:33,667 [zaza]: from 1965 01:13:33,613 --> 01:13:33,834 [peter_struck]: jack 1966 01:13:33,707 --> 01:13:33,828 [zaza]: that 1967 01:13:34,134 --> 01:13:37,330 [peter_struck]: isn't the figure of jokster in the zen stuff i 1968 01:13:37,361 --> 01:13:37,504 [zaza]: yep 1969 01:13:37,370 --> 01:13:42,280 [peter_struck]: think the figure of joksteris and jaksteris actually played by a guy called ted ramy 1970 01:13:43,323 --> 01:13:44,946 [peter_struck]: who's sam ramy's 1971 01:13:44,874 --> 01:13:45,055 [zaza]: sam 1972 01:13:45,026 --> 01:13:45,287 [peter_struck]: brother 1973 01:13:45,155 --> 01:13:47,920 [zaza]: ram's brother yeah 1974 01:13:46,700 --> 01:13:47,982 [peter_struck]: sam rams yeah and 1975 01:13:48,173 --> 01:13:48,315 [zaza]: yeah 1976 01:13:48,342 --> 01:13:50,987 [peter_struck]: ted went to the high school across town from me and i knew him through 1977 01:13:51,027 --> 01:13:52,329 [peter_struck]: college he's absolutely 1978 01:13:52,332 --> 01:13:52,433 [zaza]: oh 1979 01:13:52,349 --> 01:13:52,970 [peter_struck]: hilarious 1980 01:13:52,514 --> 01:13:52,677 [zaza]: wow 1981 01:13:53,110 --> 01:13:54,673 [peter_struck]: and interesting guy so 1982 01:13:54,741 --> 01:13:55,024 [zaza]: awesome 1983 01:13:54,773 --> 01:13:56,616 [peter_struck]: i'm always a fan joxsterdin 1984 01:13:56,692 --> 01:13:56,852 [zaza]: yeah 1985 01:13:56,696 --> 01:13:59,201 [peter_struck]: that whole package evil 1986 01:13:59,137 --> 01:13:59,237 [zaza]: oh 1987 01:13:59,281 --> 01:13:59,462 [peter_struck]: dead 1988 01:13:59,317 --> 01:13:59,498 [zaza]: gosh 1989 01:13:59,522 --> 01:13:59,582 [peter_struck]: is 1990 01:13:59,578 --> 01:13:59,718 [zaza]: these 1991 01:13:59,662 --> 01:13:59,923 [peter_struck]: another 1992 01:13:59,778 --> 01:14:00,219 [zaza]: characters 1993 01:13:59,963 --> 01:14:02,429 [peter_struck]: place you've got to if you want to dig into these folks go back and 1994 01:14:02,469 --> 01:14:04,353 [peter_struck]: look at the movie evil dead the first one 1995 01:14:04,332 --> 01:14:05,180 [zaza]: okay we'll 1996 01:14:05,075 --> 01:14:05,215 [peter_struck]: which 1997 01:14:05,241 --> 01:14:05,322 [zaza]: do 1998 01:14:05,276 --> 01:14:06,358 [peter_struck]: is a sand ramy picture 1999 01:14:07,141 --> 01:14:08,744 [zaza]: all right thank you for the recommendation 2000 01:14:09,531 --> 01:14:09,754 [peter_struck]: okay 2001 01:14:09,645 --> 01:14:14,614 [zaza]: professor struck where can people find your work besides the courser online course that we 2002 01:14:14,694 --> 01:14:17,399 [zaza]: mentioned at the beginning how can people purchase your books 2003 01:14:18,290 --> 01:14:22,697 [peter_struck]: yeah well everything is on amazon and the ones that are single author by me 2004 01:14:23,058 --> 01:14:29,489 [peter_struck]: are printed so next miss book probably couple of years before it's done but that 2005 01:14:29,509 --> 01:14:33,155 [peter_struck]: will be coming on prince and i do hope that it is accessible 2006 01:14:32,851 --> 01:14:33,610 [zaza]: yea 2007 01:14:33,215 --> 01:14:36,300 [peter_struck]: for a broad audience and not just for a narrow work of scholarship with the 2008 01:14:36,340 --> 01:14:38,003 [peter_struck]: others have been plus also 2009 01:14:37,981 --> 01:14:39,031 [zaza]: oh 2010 01:14:38,083 --> 01:14:42,971 [peter_struck]: i've got a i'm general editor of a series called the cultural history of ideas 2011 01:14:43,272 --> 01:14:47,659 [peter_struck]: which is the sixth volume set from the antiquity of the contemporary world and that's 2012 01:14:48,460 --> 01:14:48,981 [peter_struck]: most recent 2013 01:14:48,991 --> 01:14:49,314 [zaza]: oh 2014 01:14:49,041 --> 01:14:53,529 [peter_struck]: scholarly production that's going to come out think in december now supposed to be october 2015 01:14:53,609 --> 01:14:55,057 [peter_struck]: but it's got to push back a little 2016 01:14:55,621 --> 01:14:56,619 [zaza]: yeah 2017 01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:57,936 [peter_struck]: that'll be bloomsbury academic k press 2018 01:14:59,152 --> 01:15:01,805 [zaza]: this was such a delight of a conversation thank you so much for 2019 01:15:01,790 --> 01:15:01,971 [peter_struck]: well 2020 01:15:01,865 --> 01:15:02,086 [zaza]: taking 2021 01:15:02,071 --> 01:15:02,171 [peter_struck]: for 2022 01:15:02,126 --> 01:15:02,428 [zaza]: the time 2023 01:15:02,252 --> 01:15:04,398 [peter_struck]: me to thank you really enjoy 2024 01:15:05,091 --> 01:15:08,971 [zaza]: thank you yeah yes