Latest / UK Column Radio / End The Excellence- What’s Wrong With Scottish Education? – With Kate E. Deeming

Transcript

End The Excellence- What’s Wrong With Scottish Education? – With Kate E. Deeming · UK Column Radio

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, this is dynast Missus mccattie with UK column.
0:10
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be interviewing Kate Deeming today. She is
0:13
Speaker 1: my colleague in the Scottish Union for Education where she
0:16
Speaker 1: is the Parent and Supporters Group coordinator and that so Kate,
0:20
Speaker 1: I will I guess I'll just let you introduce yourself
0:23
Speaker 1: to get started. I'd be interested to know how you
0:25
Speaker 1: got involved with SUV and just kind of your background
0:29
Speaker 1: and you know how you got to this point to
0:31
Speaker 1: have this fabulous role within our Scottish Union for Education.
0:35
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Diane Well. I first
0:40
Speaker 2: got involved the Scottish Union for Education because I'm a
0:42
Speaker 2: solo parent of a well now an eleven year old boy.
0:47
Speaker 2: At the time, he was nine and what I had realized,
0:51
Speaker 2: which is a very familiar story that I'm hearing now,
0:55
Speaker 2: is that his what I expected to happen to him
0:59
Speaker 2: and is cool years was not happening. So I come
1:03
Speaker 2: from a very positive educational background. I loved school. I
1:06
Speaker 2: wanted him to have a positive experience in school, and
1:10
Speaker 2: I noticed two things starting to happen. Number one that
1:14
Speaker 2: I intuitively felt that the quality of the education that
1:17
Speaker 2: he was getting wasn't as good, and so I kept
1:19
Speaker 2: saying to them, as he okay, and they kept saying
1:21
Speaker 2: he's on track, He's on track, and I was like,
1:23
Speaker 2: on track for what? What is he on track for?
1:26
Speaker 2: What is this track?
1:27
Speaker 1: Right?
1:28
Speaker 2: That was the one thing. And then on top of that,
1:31
Speaker 2: I started noticing a lot of programming coming into schools
1:35
Speaker 2: and again this is a really familiar thing now that
1:37
Speaker 2: I didn't think was benefiting him. Number one, it was
1:40
Speaker 2: a huge time waste at best, and number two, I
1:42
Speaker 2: thought it was actually damaging him, not least taking time
1:46
Speaker 2: away from valuable education time, but then also in highly
1:50
Speaker 2: contested ideology and adult sized issues that I thought, these
1:54
Speaker 2: are these are adult issues, these are not for you.
1:58
Speaker 2: And in the landscape of that, I came cross Scottish
2:00
Speaker 2: Union for Education and I saw that they were writing
2:03
Speaker 2: about the very things that I was concerned about. And
2:06
Speaker 2: so that's kind of how I hooked into them, because
2:08
Speaker 2: I was like somebody saying, what's in my head. In
2:12
Speaker 2: the meantime, I had my son independently tested and I
2:17
Speaker 2: found that he was P two level in P five
2:20
Speaker 2: in his reading, so all these things. At the same time,
2:26
Speaker 2: there were some issues in his school with bullying where
2:29
Speaker 2: he was attacked and assaulted and the school didn't want
2:35
Speaker 2: to manage that at all. So it was a whole
2:37
Speaker 2: host of different issues that I changed school. So he's
2:41
Speaker 2: he's in a different school now, which is better and
2:45
Speaker 2: I'm pretty happy with that. But in the course of that,
2:49
Speaker 2: in working with Scottish Union for Education, I started to
2:51
Speaker 2: write for them and look into these things in more
2:54
Speaker 2: detail and I started to see the larger scale problem
2:57
Speaker 2: that we were dealing with. Scottishunie for Education talks about
3:01
Speaker 2: this a lot, and this is something of course that
3:02
Speaker 2: you'll be very familiar with, Diane, in that the role
3:06
Speaker 2: of schools has changed and what parents' roles have changed,
3:11
Speaker 2: and so there's been this kind of mashup of roles,
3:17
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of now schools are doing what
3:19
Speaker 2: parents used to do, and we can see that within
3:21
Speaker 2: the relationships education and parents are getting tutors to make
3:25
Speaker 2: up for the deficiency in education. So it's like this
3:29
Speaker 2: big old mess, right, And so as I started, I've
3:34
Speaker 2: always been so my background professionally is I developed dance
3:39
Speaker 2: and performance projects in educational and cultural settings for thirty
3:44
Speaker 2: years and so I had a lot of experience in
3:48
Speaker 2: working in school environments, and I had a lot of
3:51
Speaker 2: experience in as an activist ironically in getting people all
3:57
Speaker 2: hyped up about dance really is more and more cultural things,
4:03
Speaker 2: and so Scottish Union for Education said, would you help
4:06
Speaker 2: us to get together more parents to help address these issues.
4:11
Speaker 2: So that was just over a year ago, and in
4:14
Speaker 2: the past year I have worked directly with parents who've
4:19
Speaker 2: contacted the union, as well as developing groups of peer
4:26
Speaker 2: groups of parents in different regional areas to help address
4:29
Speaker 2: what's going on in their schools. So SUE now has
4:32
Speaker 2: twelve regional groups and one English group. I think that's it,
4:36
Speaker 2: or is it eleven regional groups and one twelve groups?
4:38
Speaker 2: Twelve groups altogether. I guess it's like it's changing all
4:41
Speaker 2: the time. It's actually going really well, and these are
4:45
Speaker 2: really grassroots and grassroots activism. My role is just to
4:50
Speaker 2: bring people together and to kind of serve to help
4:56
Speaker 2: parents address directly what's happening in their schools. So it's
4:59
Speaker 2: like a direct to school approach. So that's like, that's
5:04
Speaker 2: basically what I'm doing in a nutshell. I mean, sometimes
5:08
Speaker 2: parents they'll come with very specific issues, you know, with
5:13
Speaker 2: an activist teacher that's in their school and they don't
5:16
Speaker 2: know what to do about that. And in the regional
5:19
Speaker 2: groups themselves there will be pre support in terms of
5:23
Speaker 2: other parents that might have faced this, but also not
5:26
Speaker 2: just parents, there are also grandparents and aunties and uncles
5:28
Speaker 2: in these groups and to say, how is it we
5:32
Speaker 2: can address this directly in this school.
5:36
Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about the Curriculum for
5:38
Speaker 3: Excellence from a parent's perspective, because I've heard from our
5:40
Speaker 3: colleague Stuart Baird as a teacher in Glasgow and his
5:45
Speaker 3: perspective on the Curriculum for Excellence, But.
5:47
Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about what do you
5:49
Speaker 1: think that's done for your son's education? And you know
5:53
Speaker 1: what some of these issues do you think that's connected
5:55
Speaker 1: to this Curriculum for Excellence that we've been talking about.
5:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know this was his phrasing or not,
6:01
Speaker 2: but I think it's excellent Stewart said, or he was
6:03
Speaker 2: maybe he was quoting someone is neither a curriculum nor
6:06
Speaker 2: is it excellent. I think what it does is it
6:08
Speaker 2: really degrades educational experience because, as I said, because it's
6:13
Speaker 2: very subjective, right, So if you're lucky enough to be
6:17
Speaker 2: in a school. Now, my son happens to be in
6:19
Speaker 2: a school that's it's a primary school, which is which
6:22
Speaker 2: is as I would say, it's okay. The problem is
6:27
Speaker 2: that it's so subjective, so this idea of being on track,
6:31
Speaker 2: so they have these really nebulous markers of what needs
6:37
Speaker 2: to be achieved year on and year on, which is
6:40
Speaker 2: how my son was able to pass from one year
6:42
Speaker 2: to the next night despite not being able to read
6:45
Speaker 2: to his proficiency, what you would expect of that year
6:50
Speaker 2: and what he was capable of actually, And so they
6:54
Speaker 2: have this tracking system which is not is not really
6:58
Speaker 2: attached to anything concrete. It's very nebulous, it's very abstract.
7:05
Speaker 2: I've heard from teachers who you know. I just heard
7:10
Speaker 2: from a teacher and she said her year group that
7:13
Speaker 2: she got this year is made up of two previous
7:16
Speaker 2: So the previous year you had like the A class
7:20
Speaker 2: and the B class, and they've come into a mix
7:22
Speaker 2: of them has come into her class this year, and
7:24
Speaker 2: the teachers used their own subjective kind of tracking system.
7:28
Speaker 2: So what she would say, she says, it was like
7:30
Speaker 2: an impossible situation because she's getting all these kids coming in,
7:34
Speaker 2: she's reading all these reports and she says, how is
7:36
Speaker 2: it I help them to move ahead and achieve to
7:40
Speaker 2: their next level? Because what you've had is something that's
7:44
Speaker 2: not standardized at all within the context of this tracking system.
7:47
Speaker 2: I mean, in theory, a head teacher could decide to
7:52
Speaker 2: do a degree, decide to do basket weaving throughout the
7:55
Speaker 2: whole school, and could find a way to word it
7:59
Speaker 2: in each year group, to tick all the boxes, and
8:02
Speaker 2: the kids have done absolutely nothing. Like it's so subjective
8:06
Speaker 2: and it's so nebulous, and I think what I think
8:09
Speaker 2: that the intentions of it were noble, Like I think
8:13
Speaker 2: there was a nobility about it, about giving autonomy to
8:17
Speaker 2: head teachers to be able to meet the individual needs
8:20
Speaker 2: of the learners. And you know, you can look at
8:22
Speaker 2: it that way, but unfortunately it puts it puts far
8:26
Speaker 2: too much pressure onto the schools themselves. And as I said,
8:30
Speaker 2: because because you've degraded actually knowledge based curriculum that there
8:34
Speaker 2: actually is something that is important to pass on generationally,
8:41
Speaker 2: then all of that stuff that is our foundational knowledge
8:45
Speaker 2: is being lost. Right. You know, you think about the
8:48
Speaker 2: books that you read as a kid, You think about
8:50
Speaker 2: the books I read as a kid. I've just read
8:51
Speaker 2: Fahrenheit four or five to one, and reading C. S.
8:54
Speaker 2: Lewis like, in a way, like my son going through this,
8:56
Speaker 2: I'm like, I need to read the classics. The classics
8:59
Speaker 2: for a reason write their classics because they speak to
9:02
Speaker 2: the unique human experience that is universal that you know
9:08
Speaker 2: goes back so and not I think is distinctly lost.
9:12
Speaker 2: I think also it's very ideologically captured. So what you
9:17
Speaker 2: have is these progressive ideologies over actual quality content. I mean,
9:26
Speaker 2: like the RSHP is a perfect example because it's such
9:31
Speaker 2: first of all, it is totally inappropriate, right, Like it
9:33
Speaker 2: completely oversteps parental boundaries and what should be taught in
9:38
Speaker 2: the family, and it's completely you know, there's all that stuff.
9:43
Speaker 2: How it's influenced by queer theory, and it's all based
9:45
Speaker 2: on a rights based agenda. I mean, there are loads
9:48
Speaker 2: of problems with the biggest one of the biggest problems
9:51
Speaker 2: I have is it's really a rubbish resource. Like it's
9:54
Speaker 2: a terrible resource. It's so dumb, Like the whole thing
9:58
Speaker 2: is not inspiring. Kids are not leaving that any of
10:02
Speaker 2: those sessions feel in any sort of like you know,
10:08
Speaker 2: the good stuff associated with learning. It's so dumb and
10:13
Speaker 2: So I think this is so indicative of a lot
10:15
Speaker 2: of these kind of ideological programs that are being put
10:20
Speaker 2: into schools is that they are their lowest common denominator
10:24
Speaker 2: and they're denying our children actual learning. I think, you know,
10:28
Speaker 2: can you just teach my kid math? Right? Like I
10:32
Speaker 2: just want can you do math? You do math with
10:35
Speaker 2: my kid? Like? You know? It just it drives me nuts.
10:39
Speaker 1: Actually, could you clarify what our CHP is please?
10:44
Speaker 2: So our SHP is Relationships, Sexual, sexual Health and Parenthood education.
10:53
Speaker 2: What we've seen happen is Scotland, which is similar to
10:57
Speaker 2: what's happening in England, is and move away from the
11:00
Speaker 2: idea of sex said being attached to teaching kids about
11:06
Speaker 2: biological systems right. So now what we've moved on into
11:10
Speaker 2: is the system of sexuality education and this is very
11:14
Speaker 2: much based on a rights baced agenda. So the architect
11:20
Speaker 2: of the Scottish RSHP, which is our comprehensive sex education
11:26
Speaker 2: program which you see globally is his PhD was on
11:30
Speaker 2: the sexual rights of disabled children. And what you see
11:36
Speaker 2: and you see this not just within the sexuality education,
11:41
Speaker 2: you see this in a lot of the political programming
11:44
Speaker 2: is that uses a lot of rascal words, as Stuart
11:49
Speaker 2: Wayton called them, which I think is excellent. So what
11:52
Speaker 2: we have is a lot of rascal words that are
11:55
Speaker 2: playing into our best nature. So this idea of of
11:57
Speaker 2: course you want your children to have rights, and of
11:59
Speaker 2: course you want your children to be fulfilled, and of
12:02
Speaker 2: course you want all these things. But then it's a
12:06
Speaker 2: trojan horse that's ushering in all this other kind of
12:11
Speaker 2: beer theory critical theory stuff. Right, So in the context
12:16
Speaker 2: of our c S r SHP curriculum, there is no
12:21
Speaker 2: tethering to child development. So they'll say things like agent
12:25
Speaker 2: stage appropriate, but actually there's no tethering to any indicator
12:34
Speaker 2: of what that means. So again it's completely subjective. So
12:37
Speaker 2: if a teacher thinks this child is ready to hear
12:40
Speaker 2: about masturbation, then they'll say, well, that's agent stage appropriate, right,
12:46
Speaker 2: because it's not coming from PHA, your skinner, any of
12:50
Speaker 2: the child development heavyweights that exist. Right now, you may
12:56
Speaker 2: disagree with some of the analysis of PSA skinner, any
13:00
Speaker 2: of the other ones, but the thing is what it
13:03
Speaker 2: does is acknowledges that childhood in and of itself is
13:06
Speaker 2: a thing. So so the r SHP is is a
13:12
Speaker 2: really big one, and I think that you know, there
13:15
Speaker 2: are lots of examples in there that even things like
13:20
Speaker 2: again like a rascal word is consent. Consent should not
13:25
Speaker 2: be taught to children, right because children can't consent. They'll
13:29
Speaker 2: say children can't consent sex. Right, Well, some will say that,
13:34
Speaker 2: and the people who are decent will say that. But
13:39
Speaker 2: the thing is that consent in and of itself is
13:41
Speaker 2: the wrong word to teach the kids because kids cannot
13:45
Speaker 2: understand consequences. They lack the developmental developmental capacity to understand consequences.
13:51
Speaker 2: And when the proverbial hits the fan, it's the parents
13:56
Speaker 2: who pick up the pieces. So therefore consent is the
13:58
Speaker 2: wrong thing. It also so does not acknowledge the power dynamic, again,
14:04
Speaker 2: which is inherent in childhood, which is where children are
14:09
Speaker 2: beholden to please adults. That's an evolutionary thing. Children want
14:14
Speaker 2: to please adults. This idea of child led is a lie.
14:17
Speaker 2: It's a complete and other lie because children will follow.
14:21
Speaker 2: Children are people pleasers. So outside of again a few
14:27
Speaker 2: children who probably were jigged up by their activist parents,
14:31
Speaker 2: children will defer to the adults who kind of give
14:36
Speaker 2: them indications about what the right think is what the
14:39
Speaker 2: right answer is. There was a really great video out there.
14:43
Speaker 2: I keep citing it because I think it's so excellent
14:46
Speaker 2: called Kids First from New Zealand, and they talk about
14:49
Speaker 2: identity disruption, right, and so what all of these programs
14:55
Speaker 2: are indicative of is a psychological assault on our children.
14:59
Speaker 2: Ide identity formation is formed on the basis that we
15:04
Speaker 2: have a common humanity. Okay, so you get children to
15:07
Speaker 2: recognize we all have a common humanity and you're not
15:10
Speaker 2: in your head, and probably most people are here like, yes,
15:13
Speaker 2: that's a lovely thing to teach. That's exactly what I
15:16
Speaker 2: want for my child. Please smartin Luther King can again, amen, Yes,
15:21
Speaker 2: that's what I want. That's it done, right, So the
15:25
Speaker 2: common humanity and then after that in identity formation, you
15:29
Speaker 2: have character development. Right, So then you say, okay, we're
15:32
Speaker 2: all capable of good and bad, right, we all are.
15:36
Speaker 2: And then your identity is formed on what you do
15:39
Speaker 2: with that. That's character. Right, So it doesn't matter what
15:45
Speaker 2: color your skin is, who you're going to date, you
15:49
Speaker 2: know how much money of your bank account, it's what
15:52
Speaker 2: you do with that which is a measure of your character.
15:55
Speaker 2: Right now, that used to be a given. These were
15:58
Speaker 2: kind of universal tenants. What schools are teaching is exactly
16:03
Speaker 2: upside down of that. So the pinnacle of identity formation,
16:06
Speaker 2: which is mainly little bit and it's actually almost meaningless,
16:09
Speaker 2: is race, sexuality, economic standing. All those things in terms
16:15
Speaker 2: of in identity formation are minor. What they do is
16:18
Speaker 2: they prioritize that, and that creates a disruption in the
16:24
Speaker 2: formation of the identity of the child, and that damages children.
16:27
Speaker 2: Now in the case of r SHP, like you know,
16:31
Speaker 2: it's like they lead them down the garden gate right
16:36
Speaker 2: to the more disturbing stuff. So even the stuff that's
16:39
Speaker 2: really anandine right, Like they ask personal questions, like they
16:44
Speaker 2: might start out and say, what's your favorite color? What
16:46
Speaker 2: do you like to eat? Like again, but like why
16:50
Speaker 2: is this in schools? Like again, totally stupid. It's totally stupid,
16:55
Speaker 2: Like why are you wasting my kid's time asking them
16:57
Speaker 2: about what his favorite color? Right?
17:00
Speaker 4: But then the next thing is like, you know, a
17:03
Speaker 4: few more questions done, and and like what makes you sad?
17:06
Speaker 4: And how do you feel if somebody misgenders you? And
17:10
Speaker 4: then it makes kids kind of assume gender identity. So
17:14
Speaker 4: it's kind of like this like sleek sleight of hand
17:18
Speaker 4: where it's like they just keep moving the Overton window,
17:23
Speaker 4: getting kids to be more comfortable with disclosing personal things
17:27
Speaker 4: about their lives to speaking to strangers about their lives
17:31
Speaker 4: and then over time this completely this disrupts their whole
17:37
Speaker 4: the whole forma, their whole formation of their identity, which
17:40
Speaker 4: creates mental instability, right, and then into that the activists
17:46
Speaker 4: come right, But what we're doing is we're making broken children.
17:49
Speaker 4: And is really evident now what Scottish Unior.
17:52
Speaker 2: Education talks Bounce Steart Waiton is more excellent on this
17:55
Speaker 2: than I could ever be. But is the absolute dereliction
18:00
Speaker 2: of authority in children's lives right, which again is the
18:04
Speaker 2: problem with child led because what it's saying is that no,
18:07
Speaker 2: you're the boss. You're the boss. You're the boss, and
18:09
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, you're I say to my son, we
18:11
Speaker 2: are in a monarchy. I'm the queen, right, I am
18:16
Speaker 2: a good queen. And have you have you you oh
18:21
Speaker 2: the nose of the land. You have a very nice kingdom.
18:25
Speaker 2: For the minute. It's a monarchy, right, because it's good
18:29
Speaker 2: for him, like he's not my equal, he's equal in
18:32
Speaker 2: the eyaa god, Yes, Okay, like that, but in terms
18:35
Speaker 2: of like I've been given this responsibility to take care
18:37
Speaker 2: of him because it's too much for him, right, schools
18:40
Speaker 2: are not that way anymore. Like I just, oh my gosh,
18:43
Speaker 2: I was so annoyed just this week. I like my
18:46
Speaker 2: son's school. They read Dickens last year, right, Like, as
18:48
Speaker 2: far as things go, they're better than a lot of schools.
18:51
Speaker 2: They test. I like that they test. Testing is important.
18:54
Speaker 2: Testing is important because we get tested our whole life.
18:56
Speaker 2: That's why I said to somebody, you never most testing
18:59
Speaker 2: is terrible. I was like, you have to be prepared
19:02
Speaker 2: to synthesize information your whole life. You have to be
19:04
Speaker 2: able to draw together a body of knowledge on the spot,
19:07
Speaker 2: and this is going to help you function. So when
19:09
Speaker 2: you get tested in schools, you might not be good
19:11
Speaker 2: at it, but it's training up those muscles. And also,
19:14
Speaker 2: like I can see with my kid, he was never
19:17
Speaker 2: tested at his old school. Now he'll come home and
19:20
Speaker 2: learning is not abstract anymore. What am I here for? Okay,
19:23
Speaker 2: I've been tested. That's something that's concrete, and me as
19:26
Speaker 2: a child developmentally, I feel better when I can see
19:30
Speaker 2: like a concrete marker. But when they've done I like
19:33
Speaker 2: my son's school he's in right now. But they just
19:35
Speaker 2: start they are a bit shaked up in United Nations
19:38
Speaker 2: rights and the child right, and Scotland has just voted
19:41
Speaker 2: that into law. So that's law now here in Scotland.
19:44
Speaker 2: As you know, you've spoken a lot about that. Diane
19:47
Speaker 2: and and just started in their assembly giving up rights
19:52
Speaker 2: respecting award. And so basically it's like a nice person award.
19:58
Speaker 2: If you're a nice person, you get no. And I'm like,
20:00
Speaker 2: it's not the role of schools. And a friend of
20:03
Speaker 2: mine was so funny, she said to me, you know,
20:05
Speaker 2: that reminds me of a girl I was in Brownie's
20:07
Speaker 2: with She got the best Smile award, but when she
20:10
Speaker 2: wasn't smiling, she was talking trash about all the other girls.
20:13
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, that's exactly it. It's totally meaningless.
20:17
Speaker 2: I was like, why are you giving out this word?
20:19
Speaker 2: Give it out an award for like the most books
20:21
Speaker 2: the kid read, like this child read dostovski Any's six, Like,
20:26
Speaker 2: I totally give out award for that. Let's do that award.
20:30
Speaker 2: Can we start changing what the priorities are in education,
20:35
Speaker 2: like the nice person award, not your job, not your job.
20:38
Speaker 2: That's my job, you know. Can you teach your math.
20:40
Speaker 2: I'm good at that. I'm the queen, the queen of
20:42
Speaker 2: my child's life. More people need to establish their kingdoms
20:47
Speaker 2: and just go I'm delegating to you, but this thing.
20:51
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna get on with my business, all right, good,
20:54
Speaker 2: So just do your job.
20:56
Speaker 1: It's interesting that the backgrounds that we come from, and
20:59
Speaker 1: I just like to hear your thoughts on this, you know,
21:01
Speaker 1: us both being from across the Pond and living in
21:04
Speaker 1: Scotland and our backgrounds. And one of the things that
21:08
Speaker 1: I think about frequently when I hear about all this
21:10
Speaker 1: anti racism education and you have to identify by your
21:13
Speaker 1: color and this and that is that I was actually
21:16
Speaker 1: taught the opposite by my mother, who was from Arkansas,
21:19
Speaker 1: grew up in the Deep South when segregation was still
21:21
Speaker 1: a thing, and she used to tell the stories of
21:24
Speaker 1: when she was a child, of when she used to
21:27
Speaker 1: ask her mother, well, why are those people using different
21:30
Speaker 1: water fountains or why are they using different toilets than ours?
21:34
Speaker 1: Because those were the black toilets or the black water fountains,
21:37
Speaker 1: or the back of the bus for the black people.
21:39
Speaker 1: And that was what she grew up with, and she
21:42
Speaker 1: saw that. She told me about how she saw that
21:45
Speaker 1: they were different, but she didn't understand why because they
21:48
Speaker 1: looked a certain way that they had to go use
21:51
Speaker 1: separate facilities, and her mother taught her that it's not important,
21:57
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be doing this. And eventually, obviously they saw
22:01
Speaker 1: the end of segregation, and there's still problems in the States.
22:05
Speaker 1: You know, it's still racial tension that goes on around
22:08
Speaker 1: the country. And my concern for this, and I'd like
22:11
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on it as well, is that
22:13
Speaker 1: by teaching children to be anti racist, that they're going
22:18
Speaker 1: to look for these differences or be trained to see
22:20
Speaker 1: these differences, and that racism is going to emerge as
22:23
Speaker 1: an even bigger problem than it already has been for
22:26
Speaker 1: a long time.
22:28
Speaker 2: What do you agree with me on that? What do
22:29
Speaker 2: you think? I definitely think it's creating more racism. And
22:33
Speaker 2: when after George Floyd happened and I saw, because I've
22:38
Speaker 2: come from an arts background, and I saw the Tramway
22:41
Speaker 2: come out with this freaking statement, and I was like,
22:43
Speaker 2: what the hell are you doing? I was like, why
22:45
Speaker 2: are you adopting American policies that don't work. I was like,
22:49
Speaker 2: that don't work. Why are you doing that? Hello? I
22:53
Speaker 2: live in the largest Muslim community in Polish Shields publish
22:56
Speaker 2: Shields in Glasgow. Right, so this is the most ethnically
23:00
Speaker 2: diverse and a long term diverse community. We are not
23:05
Speaker 2: without our problems. But I would say in terms of
23:09
Speaker 2: racism within these walls of this community is not an issue. Right.
23:17
Speaker 2: I would say policies like that are going to hurt
23:22
Speaker 2: the children in my community because what it's doing is
23:26
Speaker 2: creating more division. Right. And I could even say when
23:30
Speaker 2: I worked in North Philadelphia, which had huge gang violence
23:35
Speaker 2: and huge problems within a largely you know, multi multi
23:41
Speaker 2: ethnic community, that all these race policies are not going
23:45
Speaker 2: to hurt help them either. Right. Because you know Heather
23:50
Speaker 2: McDonald as I'm sure you're familiar with her work, talks
23:54
Speaker 2: about disparate impact theory, right, because that's what this is.
23:58
Speaker 2: What they're what they're imposing is disparate impact theory. And
24:03
Speaker 2: what disparate impact theory is if something isn't going your
24:09
Speaker 2: way and you're a black person, then it's racism, that's it.
24:13
Speaker 2: If a job is not completely matching the ethnic background
24:22
Speaker 2: of a country, then it's because of racism. It doesn't
24:25
Speaker 2: look at any of the other underlying issues. Right. I
24:29
Speaker 2: saw cookab Stewart, MSP for Scotland, who grew up in
24:35
Speaker 2: public Shields, and she made this grand statement as she
24:41
Speaker 2: often does, don't get me started, about how racism was
24:48
Speaker 2: keeping Muslim girls from sport, and I was like, are
24:52
Speaker 2: you have you lost your mind? Like you know exactly
24:56
Speaker 2: the many layers that keep girls from being in sport
25:00
Speaker 2: here in public Shields, not least we used to have
25:03
Speaker 2: four community centers, now we have none. You know, there's
25:09
Speaker 2: the equivalent amount of play space here in public Shields
25:15
Speaker 2: for kids to play is equivalent of one a four
25:17
Speaker 2: sized piece of paper. That's how much playspased kids have. Right. So,
25:21
Speaker 2: if you're a poor kid from an ethnic who happens
25:25
Speaker 2: to live here and is largely ethnic minorities, right because
25:27
Speaker 2: it was forty nine percent. So if you're a poor
25:32
Speaker 2: kid here and your parents don't have a car, and
25:36
Speaker 2: you've got and you're managing taking care of your kids,
25:40
Speaker 2: all the stuff like that. So the only way you're
25:42
Speaker 2: a child would get to something is if they walk
25:43
Speaker 2: to it, right, And if there's nothing within the walkable space.
25:48
Speaker 2: Your child's not going to do sport, Okay, So that's
25:50
Speaker 2: number one. Number two, it's not it's not a culture here.
25:57
Speaker 2: And I'm only speaking in terms of what I see
26:00
Speaker 2: here in my community, which is the largest ethnic minority
26:02
Speaker 2: community in Scotland. It's not a community that really values sport.
26:06
Speaker 2: And part of that is because their lives are really busy,
26:08
Speaker 2: like you know, it's it's family and faith. You know,
26:12
Speaker 2: in the weekends they're going to weddings, they have family things,
26:15
Speaker 2: like they're busy. They're very busy, right, And that's not
26:18
Speaker 2: a bad thing. Like undermines the agency of families to
26:24
Speaker 2: choose what it is they might want for their lives.
26:29
Speaker 2: And I think what it does is it also dehumanizes, dehumanizes,
26:34
Speaker 2: like even in this community is so diverse in the diversity,
26:39
Speaker 2: like I could tell you so many stories about the
26:40
Speaker 2: individuals that live here. And what that does is that
26:43
Speaker 2: it creates a prejudgment on superficial characteristics. But even like
26:48
Speaker 2: from a son, the thing that happened to my child
26:51
Speaker 2: in his school was that a group of older boys
26:55
Speaker 2: made up a lie about him saying something about the
26:57
Speaker 2: prophet Muhammad, and they attack, they chased and they were
27:01
Speaker 2: three years older than him. He was a minority, white boy.
27:05
Speaker 2: They chased him into the toilet and they assaulted him
27:07
Speaker 2: right and only because his Muslim friends stood up for
27:12
Speaker 2: him and hit the Muslim families. Then I'm friends with
27:15
Speaker 2: stood up for him. Did the school deal with it right?
27:19
Speaker 2: And because those boys said, you know, your son didn't
27:23
Speaker 2: say anything wrong, he didn't do anything, They've made up
27:25
Speaker 2: a lie about him. And for me, that was a
27:29
Speaker 2: good teaching moment for my child, because I said, content
27:32
Speaker 2: of character. What you have is two people from the
27:35
Speaker 2: same community. One has shown good content of character in
27:39
Speaker 2: telling the truth and doing what is right, and one
27:42
Speaker 2: has shown very bad content of character in not doing
27:45
Speaker 2: what was right and in terms of targeting you. And
27:48
Speaker 2: it was an awful thing for him. But I think
27:50
Speaker 2: what this these programs do is it takes away the
27:54
Speaker 2: agency from everyone to be able to relate just on
27:57
Speaker 2: a human level, and I think ultimately creates huge paranoia.
28:02
Speaker 2: I think it's really damaging to child development. I mean
28:07
Speaker 2: not least, I mean lots of programs come into this
28:09
Speaker 2: area that are specifically only for Asian kids. That's a fact, right.
28:14
Speaker 2: My son was the same friends These are his friends, right,
28:18
Speaker 2: these are his good friends. He was playing football in
28:21
Speaker 2: the little local mugga, one of the few spaces that's overcrowded,
28:26
Speaker 2: and one of the youth workers came along to do
28:28
Speaker 2: the youth program at the local school and he wasn't
28:33
Speaker 2: allowed to go because he wasn't BM me because it
28:35
Speaker 2: was a program specifically funded for be Ame kids. And
28:39
Speaker 2: they said, because they knew me, They're like, well, we
28:41
Speaker 2: can let him go. And I was like, no, I
28:42
Speaker 2: can't let him go because then what about the other
28:44
Speaker 2: boys he's friends with that happened to be white, right,
28:47
Speaker 2: Like he's only let in You're gonna sneak him in?
28:49
Speaker 2: Like what? No? Right? And this So the thing is like,
28:52
Speaker 2: there's so so the thing is like what you could
28:55
Speaker 2: see his friends who he knew since he was a
28:59
Speaker 2: nursery and played with, you know, it's like they want
29:03
Speaker 2: they trundle down to the school to do football and
29:06
Speaker 2: have snacks and play Game Boy and all this stuff,
29:09
Speaker 2: and he was left to not be part of it. Right,
29:12
Speaker 2: And so it's it completely disempowers kids, It completely undermines
29:19
Speaker 2: their friendships. It's just it's a it's a corrosive and
29:23
Speaker 2: an awful thing, and it was so upsetting, not just
29:27
Speaker 2: for him, but for there's little boys as well. What
29:30
Speaker 2: do you you know, it's it's just awful.
29:33
Speaker 1: So it seems to me that kids can see differences,
29:36
Speaker 1: but they don't they don't attach the prejudices to them
29:39
Speaker 1: that unfortunately, people learn as they grow older. They see, Okay,
29:43
Speaker 1: you're different, maybe your skin's a different color, maybe you
29:45
Speaker 1: look different. But every time I see groups of kids
29:48
Speaker 1: playing together, those things don't seem to be issues. They
29:51
Speaker 1: just kind of get along, right, And it's unfortunate that
29:55
Speaker 1: I think that before they're ready to kind of understand
29:59
Speaker 1: those differences and people, those sort of nuances between cultures
30:02
Speaker 1: and and you know, races and you know, even genders.
30:06
Speaker 1: Really that that we're teaching them. It sounds like we're
30:09
Speaker 1: teaching them before they're ready to understand that, or before
30:12
Speaker 1: they even need to worry about that. And so I'm
30:15
Speaker 1: also curious about gender in this community where you live,
30:20
Speaker 1: because just myself having been to Riad in twenty was
30:24
Speaker 1: it twenty eighteen, twenty and eighteen somewhere? I think, yeah,
30:27
Speaker 1: the year before we were locked up, and I was
30:31
Speaker 1: I had a student who was a PhD student at
30:34
Speaker 1: the biggest women's university in Saudi Arabia, and I traveled
30:37
Speaker 1: there alone as a woman, and I was really worried about,
30:42
Speaker 1: you know what I need? What do I need to
30:43
Speaker 1: do to make sure that I wasn't great to get
30:45
Speaker 1: in trouble as a woman. You know, I kind of
30:47
Speaker 1: stand out over there right, my blonde hair, all of this.
30:50
Speaker 2: How am I? What am I supposed to do?
30:52
Speaker 1: And be respectful? And what I've thought about in recent
30:56
Speaker 1: times with all of the trans ideology and all the
30:58
Speaker 1: activism going on, is if you compare the cultures, and
31:03
Speaker 1: you can't compare the cultures, but if I were to
31:06
Speaker 1: land at the airport and read and say I don't
31:08
Speaker 1: have to cover myself because I identify as a man,
31:11
Speaker 1: do you think they would have let me into the country.
31:14
Speaker 1: And this is what I've said to some of these
31:15
Speaker 1: people that are trying to do this activism, is that
31:18
Speaker 1: it doesn't translate. And what I feel like happens is
31:21
Speaker 1: that they don't appreciate the freedom that we have in
31:24
Speaker 1: the West. We don't tell people who are Muslim you
31:26
Speaker 1: can't cover up because this is a traditional and majority
31:29
Speaker 1: Christian country and we don't do that we allow them
31:32
Speaker 1: to do that, but we can't go to Saudi Arabia
31:35
Speaker 1: and say, well, I'm a woman, so I'm not going
31:37
Speaker 1: to wear Mayabia. And so I'm wondering what this means
31:40
Speaker 1: for if you know anything about the parents who are
31:43
Speaker 1: Muslim in your community, if their kids are being taught
31:46
Speaker 1: gender and told that a man could be a woman
31:48
Speaker 1: and a woman can be a man, and they have
31:50
Speaker 1: the right to make that decision, how do you think
31:54
Speaker 1: that they're viewing it from their religious and their cultural
31:57
Speaker 1: backgrounds where it's just not acceptable. But have you heard
32:00
Speaker 1: anything from them about that.
32:02
Speaker 2: I think that my experience of my friends whose children
32:06
Speaker 2: who are Muslim, whose children in local schools, and speaking
32:09
Speaker 2: to parents is that they are completely not signed up
32:13
Speaker 2: for gender ideology. It is counter to, you know, what
32:19
Speaker 2: they believe in their faith and scientifically, you know. I
32:25
Speaker 2: think that the difference perhaps is parents who choose Muslim
32:29
Speaker 2: parents in particular and devout Muslim parents in particular, who
32:32
Speaker 2: are used to sending their children to quote unquote mainstream schools.
32:37
Speaker 2: They are used to and maybe we could take a
32:40
Speaker 2: page out of their notebook. They're used to deradicalizing them
32:44
Speaker 2: when they come home in terms of if things happen
32:47
Speaker 2: in the school yard or in the school gate, in
32:50
Speaker 2: terms of that they teach their children to just not
32:53
Speaker 2: and smile, you know with certain things, in particular with
32:57
Speaker 2: when children are older with things. But they're completely and
33:02
Speaker 2: utterly not signed up to. One thing that did happen locally,
33:05
Speaker 2: and I think you probably heard about this, is that
33:09
Speaker 2: the local nursery hired a transidentified nursery teacher in the nursery,
33:17
Speaker 2: and this created loads of distress. Was what you're dealing
33:20
Speaker 2: with is young, young children who you can't who are
33:24
Speaker 2: making sense to the world between what is imaginary and
33:27
Speaker 2: what is real, again coming back to child development. And
33:30
Speaker 2: so what happened was one of these parents came one
33:34
Speaker 2: of these parents' daughters came home and was very upset.
33:36
Speaker 2: And when she interrogated it a little bit, the little
33:41
Speaker 2: girl said, I don't want to go back. There's a
33:43
Speaker 2: man woman there, or something to that effect. But it
33:46
Speaker 2: was this fact that she was distressed that this individual
33:49
Speaker 2: she could clearly see was a man and she was
33:52
Speaker 2: being told that this individual was female. And so the
33:56
Speaker 2: parent was thinking she had a good relationship with the nursery.
34:00
Speaker 2: Her other children had been in the nursery went in
34:04
Speaker 2: to see and she was told by the nursery staff
34:09
Speaker 2: that this person identifies as female and as female. However,
34:14
Speaker 2: we will help your child to adjust re educate them.
34:19
Speaker 2: And the mother said, no, you won't, because my child's
34:22
Speaker 2: not going to be taught to lie, and I don't
34:24
Speaker 2: think that will be very good for her, right, so
34:26
Speaker 2: she took her out of school in the meantime. Now,
34:29
Speaker 2: this particular mother is first generation Scots Asian, so she
34:34
Speaker 2: was born and raised here and is you know, works
34:39
Speaker 2: and all the rest. So she's quite confident as an
34:42
Speaker 2: individual of faith. But there are other mothers at the
34:46
Speaker 2: school whose English was not their first language. She didn't
34:48
Speaker 2: have the social confidence and so they were also concerned.
34:52
Speaker 2: But they went to her because they didn't have the
34:54
Speaker 2: confidence to go to the administration to get some answers
34:58
Speaker 2: because their children were also home and saying things, and
35:01
Speaker 2: so all she did was pass on the information. What
35:04
Speaker 2: the school then came back to her and they said,
35:06
Speaker 2: you are organizing amongst parents and we could call the
35:11
Speaker 2: police on you, right for organizing against this teacher, right,
35:16
Speaker 2: And she said, I was just passing on information. Now,
35:20
Speaker 2: as it turns out, the just to get into the
35:24
Speaker 2: paper a bit, and the nursery trans nursery teacher did leave,
35:32
Speaker 2: and so that I think this person is in another
35:35
Speaker 2: nursery in Glasgow. I'm not sure, but I have heard rumors.
35:39
Speaker 2: Now this brings up a really important question because when
35:43
Speaker 2: this person was doing their nursery training, so when I
35:45
Speaker 2: think it was Clyde College, it's where they were. When
35:49
Speaker 2: Clyde College was Coleman was called for colement. They said
35:54
Speaker 2: something about the equality, the right for this person to
35:56
Speaker 2: identify right Nowhere in their statement was any reference to
36:03
Speaker 2: the rights of that child. Nowhere in that statement was
36:08
Speaker 2: the reference to the safety of that child and the
36:12
Speaker 2: safety within the context of psychological safety of that child
36:16
Speaker 2: and what I was talking about like identity disruption. So
36:19
Speaker 2: basically what happened was all this BS rights based stuff,
36:24
Speaker 2: which we know is bump anyways, went out the window
36:32
Speaker 2: by their own standards, went faced with a greater something
36:38
Speaker 2: greater on the oppression scale, I suppose you could say. Now,
36:41
Speaker 2: I wrote a piece on this for Scottish Union for
36:44
Speaker 2: Education because I was reflecting on all of this, because
36:48
Speaker 2: you know, we live in a live and let live
36:50
Speaker 2: society and my background as a As an artist, I
36:54
Speaker 2: used a lot of costume in my work, and you know,
36:57
Speaker 2: I'm a bit famous for dancing around the streets dressed
36:59
Speaker 2: like chicken. So I don't have any issues with people
37:03
Speaker 2: in costume, right. What I have an issue is where, well,
37:08
Speaker 2: there are two issues. Number one is where no one
37:13
Speaker 2: should demand you to take part in their fantasy. What
37:16
Speaker 2: is real is what is real? Okay, and in particular
37:19
Speaker 2: for children in terms of how damaging that is for children.
37:22
Speaker 2: Number two, what is the bandwidth of aliability? Right? So
37:26
Speaker 2: you could say, well, that person is free to wear
37:29
Speaker 2: what they want to wear, but are they Could they
37:31
Speaker 2: show up to work in a bikini? Could they show
37:33
Speaker 2: up in fetish gear? We had Granddad's pride, which you're
37:37
Speaker 2: familiar with, you know, in this story book or in
37:40
Speaker 2: terms of for me, you know, again, this is about
37:43
Speaker 2: we have in this live and let live in this
37:46
Speaker 2: liberal society and this in the society of choice we
37:51
Speaker 2: have In a way, it's it's like where what is
37:55
Speaker 2: the Overton window there? Right? Like? Where are the boundaries?
37:59
Speaker 2: Is it? And that's critical theory. Critical theory is no boundaries, right, So,
38:03
Speaker 2: but somewhere in all of us there is that instinct rightfully,
38:08
Speaker 2: so that for children in particular, there need to be boundaries, right,
38:12
Speaker 2: and so how is it do we navigate that? And
38:17
Speaker 2: I think and I think that case brought brought something
38:22
Speaker 2: very important up because I think that in the case
38:27
Speaker 2: of children, we often have or societally have always had
38:32
Speaker 2: boundaries and always put limits in for the protection. We
38:35
Speaker 2: still have it. We don't have it in books unfortunately,
38:37
Speaker 2: in libraries as you know, but in films you know,
38:41
Speaker 2: we have age classifications, so you know in terms of
38:45
Speaker 2: there are certain things. You can't drive until you're a
38:47
Speaker 2: certain age, you can't drink alcohol until certain age. So
38:50
Speaker 2: there are all sorts of boundaries in place where we recognize, actually,
38:54
Speaker 2: this isn't good for children right now. Right in the
38:58
Speaker 2: case of that nursery, I would suggest, and this is
39:03
Speaker 2: controversial and it shouldn't be, is that somebody who's living
39:06
Speaker 2: a lie and is asking other people to live a
39:09
Speaker 2: lie is not somebody who is probably best suited to
39:12
Speaker 2: working with children, right because you need people who are stable,
39:16
Speaker 2: who are living in reality, who can navigate that world
39:19
Speaker 2: between being in play and not being in play, but
39:22
Speaker 2: ultimately have their feet firmly rooted in what is real
39:27
Speaker 2: because for children, you need to be the ballast for them,
39:31
Speaker 2: in particular in an environment where you're working intimately with them.
39:35
Speaker 1: Have you found that you've had to do any of
39:37
Speaker 1: the sort of deprogramming of your son when he comes
39:39
Speaker 1: home from school or you sent him pretty well prepared
39:42
Speaker 1: to face what was potentially put in front of him
39:46
Speaker 1: in the classroom.
39:47
Speaker 2: So I think in the case of my son, he's
39:52
Speaker 2: got a really good sense of humor, which I think helps,
39:54
Speaker 2: so he takes the piss out of a lot of
39:57
Speaker 2: the stuff, which is good. I think in terms of
39:59
Speaker 2: the trans it's just I think with a lot of
40:02
Speaker 2: boys in particular, there just he's too much of this
40:06
Speaker 2: earth like it doesn't make sense to him. It's like
40:08
Speaker 2: it's common sensical for him. I think. The deprogramming stuff, yeah,
40:13
Speaker 2: I absolutely do have to kind of keep the conversation
40:18
Speaker 2: going on a lot of these things, and it's going
40:20
Speaker 2: to be a challenge. I mean, I think that for
40:23
Speaker 2: me when I look at what parents need to do,
40:26
Speaker 2: and I speak from this from a very personal perspective
40:29
Speaker 2: as well, this thing is not going away right. As
40:33
Speaker 2: much as I would love the education system poof to
40:37
Speaker 2: wake up and my son to be in this absolute
40:39
Speaker 2: inspirational environment with like you know, amazing books and learning
40:44
Speaker 2: and reading and like what I had, Like I had
40:46
Speaker 2: a great school experience. I don't think that's going to happen.
40:51
Speaker 2: His primary school actually is pretty good. I have to
40:53
Speaker 2: give them credit outside of that award thing, but I
40:57
Speaker 2: think that, you know, giving as many opportunities for them
41:03
Speaker 2: to have other perspectives. I was just talking to a
41:05
Speaker 2: dad about this yesterday, one of the dads in one
41:07
Speaker 2: of the groups who's dealing with this, and I said,
41:11
Speaker 2: you know, the more perspective we can give to kids,
41:15
Speaker 2: the better, right, so that they can see what is real.
41:18
Speaker 2: I think that is one of the biggest challenges in
41:20
Speaker 2: Scotland in particular because I call it the educational blob.
41:23
Speaker 2: You know, when I was having problems with my son's
41:27
Speaker 2: school where he was assaulted and the educational level and
41:30
Speaker 2: stuff like that, and my sister said to me, well,
41:32
Speaker 2: just put him in a different school because you'll appreciate. Diane, Like,
41:35
Speaker 2: my parents live in and my sister live in a
41:37
Speaker 2: good district and they're like probably twenty schools I could
41:40
Speaker 2: send them to and they'll all be different because they're
41:42
Speaker 2: all competing with each other, and so there's a kind
41:46
Speaker 2: of the market kind of helps it a bit. Even
41:51
Speaker 2: within the public schools, right we're here, it's all so
41:56
Speaker 2: centralized that it's more difficult to find that diversity of choice,
42:06
Speaker 2: and so a lot of it will come down to
42:09
Speaker 2: parents just being empowered to get engaged with what your
42:14
Speaker 2: children are learning, really find out and try and provide
42:17
Speaker 2: as many opportunities for them. I think also like what's
42:21
Speaker 2: happening with the with parents supporters groups of sue that
42:27
Speaker 2: you know, these little islands of these allies in education,
42:32
Speaker 2: and that's not just parents, that's teachers as well. Teachers
42:34
Speaker 2: are also really frustrated by this because teachers are parents,
42:37
Speaker 2: right Like, there are active as teachers. There absolutely are.
42:41
Speaker 2: Like the unions, oh M, don't get me started, Like
42:46
Speaker 2: Educational Unions EIS, which is the largest teacher union in Scotland.
42:50
Speaker 2: Fifty six thousand teachers voted to ignore casts and voted
42:55
Speaker 2: for self idea in schools. Right, that's the educational union,
43:00
Speaker 2: the largest teacher union for Scotland. And they had five
43:03
Speaker 2: motions for Palestine, right Like that's the largest teacher Like
43:08
Speaker 2: there was nothing in there about educational standards, you know,
43:14
Speaker 2: that's problematic, and that's the climate that we're in. So
43:18
Speaker 2: I think there's an element of just need to be
43:21
Speaker 2: engaged and invested as you can try and provide opportunities
43:26
Speaker 2: for your children's that they have perspectives and find parents
43:31
Speaker 2: and aunties and uncles and people who you can just
43:34
Speaker 2: kind of have commonality about about what you want for
43:38
Speaker 2: your kids. And there are still some schools that are okay.
43:44
Speaker 2: You know, we've had some good success because teachers are
43:48
Speaker 2: just like especially there's some teachers who are completely know
43:52
Speaker 2: what's going on are trying to find their way around it.
43:55
Speaker 2: So there's one high school that I've whose parents have
43:59
Speaker 2: been working with and the head teacher is really keen
44:03
Speaker 2: to just get back to core purpose, but she's up
44:05
Speaker 2: against her counsel, she's up against some of the teacher
44:11
Speaker 2: activists coming in and so we've collectively been working with
44:18
Speaker 2: these parents and things are shifting in that school. Right,
44:22
Speaker 2: I say, it's a big ask. Right, you have other
44:25
Speaker 2: schools that are completely signed up for everything like everything,
44:30
Speaker 2: like nuts like crazy, crazy crazy, and it's unlikely that's
44:36
Speaker 2: going to have a major shift, Right, It's like maybe
44:39
Speaker 2: the other chips around need to fall before that one does.
44:41
Speaker 2: I don't know. In that case, then I think it's
44:44
Speaker 2: a case of deep programming. You know. I've spoken to
44:47
Speaker 2: people who grew up in former Soviet countries and that's
44:51
Speaker 2: what they say their parents would do when they would
44:52
Speaker 2: go home, and so there is an element of this.
44:55
Speaker 2: I know some people are opting to home school. Homeschool
44:57
Speaker 2: is not a possibility for everybody, not necessarily the best choice,
45:03
Speaker 2: but that is another thing. And there are some independent
45:06
Speaker 2: schools starting if you there's one in Glasgow, Tron Church
45:10
Speaker 2: has started one Melville Knox. There's one starting a classical
45:14
Speaker 2: Christian school in Edinburgh, and I think it would be
45:18
Speaker 2: great to see more initiatives like this. I am quite
45:24
Speaker 2: hopeful in that I think the conversation has shifted so
45:28
Speaker 2: much to even what it was a year ago. Right,
45:31
Speaker 2: Like I'm speaking of the battle of ideas, I think
45:33
Speaker 2: you're the battle of ideas as well, and so there
45:35
Speaker 2: are more people who are really invested in what is
45:39
Speaker 2: good for children and what is good for education coming
45:43
Speaker 2: together and trying to find solutions. I just finished, I'm
45:47
Speaker 2: just in the midst of reading Johanna Williams teaches her
45:52
Speaker 2: parents who's responsible for raising the next generation. She wrote
45:56
Speaker 2: for Civitas, You've got a lot of more work with
46:01
Speaker 2: family education, trust on you know what's going on with boys.
46:05
Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's some really good conversation happening around
46:09
Speaker 2: these things and that that is hopeful. But this is
46:12
Speaker 2: not going to be solved it anytime soon. So I
46:17
Speaker 2: think that we need to plan for the long game
46:19
Speaker 2: and just just be awake, be awake, and be engaged.
46:24
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, it's we're up against to fight and all
46:28
Speaker 1: of these issues we're all up against to fight. But
46:30
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to expose. And you know, I
46:33
Speaker 1: like to give people some you know, some practical things
46:36
Speaker 1: that they can do, whether it's for parents, it's that
46:39
Speaker 1: one who maybe we can get to help join your
46:41
Speaker 1: parents group and be even stronger, or for people in
46:45
Speaker 1: other areas that don't have the group that you have.
46:48
Speaker 1: What are some of the specific things that you do
46:51
Speaker 1: in the group that what what have you found to
46:54
Speaker 1: be effective? And you know where where do you see
46:56
Speaker 1: areas for growth in terms of what else you hope
47:00
Speaker 1: to be doing a year from now?
47:02
Speaker 2: As I say, there's been some really positive developments in
47:04
Speaker 2: the past year. I think these these parents groups are
47:08
Speaker 2: really important. So even if you have one person who's
47:12
Speaker 2: onside with you, I think just having somebody you can
47:15
Speaker 2: lean on makes huge difference to be able to so
47:18
Speaker 2: you don't feel like because you're gas lit often, you know,
47:22
Speaker 2: like when I was told, oh, he's fine, he's on track,
47:25
Speaker 2: I was like, what like? And people might think, well,
47:29
Speaker 2: they say, say it's okay, And I hear that a
47:33
Speaker 2: lot like I hear I hear from a lot of
47:35
Speaker 2: parents who think, I wish I would have paid attention
47:37
Speaker 2: to my instincts and their kids are like in high
47:40
Speaker 2: school right, and they think and now they've missed that window.
47:44
Speaker 2: Because I trust the system, so I think, firstly, find
47:49
Speaker 2: other people who are on side. You can get in
47:53
Speaker 2: touch with me. I'm sure you'll put the details from
47:57
Speaker 2: my email and Sue in the show notes, and I'm
48:00
Speaker 2: happy to put you into any of the groups that
48:02
Speaker 2: we have. I work directly with parents. I'll chat talk
48:05
Speaker 2: through things with you in terms of what specific approaches
48:09
Speaker 2: might work in your school environment or community. I think
48:12
Speaker 2: the other thing is things like just being aware of
48:17
Speaker 2: what strategizing is happening. So, for example, in Scotland, they've
48:21
Speaker 2: just announced the Scottish Parents Assembly, I think it's called So.
48:27
Speaker 2: I find this really interesting because we know parents are
48:31
Speaker 2: the final frontier in terms of keeping kids safe and
48:35
Speaker 2: ensuring that the next generation because we're investing in it. Right,
48:40
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of grassroots activities happening and
48:45
Speaker 2: as parents who are leading this, not just in Scotland,
48:49
Speaker 2: is internationally. So Scottish government has taken upon themselves to
48:53
Speaker 2: start a new parent group which represents all parent voices right,
48:59
Speaker 2: and the cynic in me thinks that this is their
49:05
Speaker 2: way to try and control the narrative and control the conversation.
49:09
Speaker 2: But of course if you look at what this organization is,
49:13
Speaker 2: it's another quango by Scottish government, funded by Scottish government.
49:17
Speaker 2: There's an application process, so it's not democratic. The application
49:22
Speaker 2: process involves a survey, which is so invasive. I was like,
49:27
Speaker 2: that's none of your business. I was like, reading through
49:29
Speaker 2: these questions, I was like I was taking my clothes off.
49:34
Speaker 2: It's too much this overshare. All you need to know
49:37
Speaker 2: is what area I live in? Okay, demographically how old
49:40
Speaker 2: my kids are done, that's all you need to know. Like,
49:44
Speaker 2: it's this part of this new narrative, this lie, this
49:48
Speaker 2: bit of propaganda that what is keeping parents from being
49:52
Speaker 2: involved in parent counsels is racism, right, and so is
49:56
Speaker 2: all this kind of diversity tikbox exercise. So it doesn't
50:01
Speaker 2: matter if you have been doing amazing stuff for your school,
50:07
Speaker 2: raising loads of money. You know, it's so hard to
50:09
Speaker 2: be involved in the parent counsel and be involved in
50:11
Speaker 2: in parent things. Like people who do these things put
50:14
Speaker 2: a lot of their time and effort into it, a
50:16
Speaker 2: huge sacrifice. I'm not saying they're perfect. I'm not saying
50:18
Speaker 2: racism doesn't maybe exist sometimes, but I'd say large by
50:21
Speaker 2: and large, it's parents putting huge efforts in and to
50:25
Speaker 2: kind of frame it as if this is a diversity issue.
50:27
Speaker 2: And obviously there's other agendas at life. So I think
50:31
Speaker 2: again being aware of things like this, one thing that
50:35
Speaker 2: quite a few of my parent groups do is they
50:37
Speaker 2: watch the council meet education meetings again, because that gives
50:41
Speaker 2: you an insight in terms of what is going to
50:43
Speaker 2: be embedded in schools, and that's really useful again for
50:48
Speaker 2: you to be forewarned. What is the statement for warrened
50:53
Speaker 2: is forearmed, for warned is forearmed. So the more information
50:56
Speaker 2: you have in terms of what initiatives are being put
50:58
Speaker 2: into schools. We in our parent groups, there's a lot
51:03
Speaker 2: of information sharing, so like somebody in the Highlands might
51:06
Speaker 2: say something and then I'll share with somebody in Glasgow
51:09
Speaker 2: and like so it's like, oh, did you hear about
51:10
Speaker 2: these things? And then we collectively put that information together.
51:14
Speaker 2: So there have been things in the press in the
51:16
Speaker 2: past year that have come out of those parent groups
51:18
Speaker 2: as we have gathered firsthand intelligence in terms of what's happening.
51:23
Speaker 2: So there's the amount of advocacy that happens off the back
51:26
Speaker 2: of that through the collective sharing of information. I mean
51:32
Speaker 2: too much. I've got like four pages the list of
51:34
Speaker 2: stuff that is, there's so much going on, I think,
51:38
Speaker 2: so I think the two there, so I think there
51:40
Speaker 2: are a lot of things in there. Be as informed
51:43
Speaker 2: as as you can. And the thing is, like, I
51:46
Speaker 2: think too something worth mentioning is that I'm solo parent,
51:50
Speaker 2: you know. It's like I'm on my own with my kid.
51:52
Speaker 2: So I understand sometimes you're going to be able to
51:55
Speaker 2: go whole hog and things, and sometimes you need to
51:57
Speaker 2: take a step back because you have work. Whatever commitments
52:01
Speaker 2: you give when you can give, you contribute when you
52:03
Speaker 2: can contribute it. Other times other people will pull up
52:06
Speaker 2: the slacks. But the idea is that we all at
52:09
Speaker 2: least have our finger on the pulse, right because this
52:13
Speaker 2: is this is what's going to keep the conversation going
52:16
Speaker 2: about this and emboldened change, which is which is what
52:20
Speaker 2: needs to happen. I think to this. I think one
52:24
Speaker 2: of the things that was really important that Joanna Williams
52:27
Speaker 2: put in her report was this idea of there's a
52:31
Speaker 2: huge antagonism or there can be an antagonism between schools
52:35
Speaker 2: and parents at the minute, which is not useful. So
52:38
Speaker 2: and there are teachers and good teachers, and there are
52:42
Speaker 2: good head teachers who really want the best for kids.
52:45
Speaker 2: Some of them have been indoctrinated into the cult and
52:50
Speaker 2: so there's an element of you know, what do you
52:55
Speaker 2: do about that? But then there are other ones there
52:56
Speaker 2: are just going along to get along, and so I
52:58
Speaker 2: think they're probably the ones that the more conversations that
53:03
Speaker 2: we have one thing that I am trying to push forward.
53:07
Speaker 2: And actually, in a way, the funding cuts that are
53:10
Speaker 2: happening in Scotland and education right now or silver lining
53:14
Speaker 2: is because you could say we need to get back
53:16
Speaker 2: to core purpose, all right, all this extra stuff, you know,
53:20
Speaker 2: Like I know of a couple of schools that dropped
53:23
Speaker 2: their LGBT Youth Starter actually not maybe like five or
53:28
Speaker 2: six now LGBT Youth Scotland who of course were who
53:34
Speaker 2: were involved with two B defiles as well as other
53:38
Speaker 2: grooming allegations and so there have So the fact of
53:43
Speaker 2: that wasn't enough for people to drop their charters with them.
53:46
Speaker 2: But I think it's easier for uh for head teachers
53:51
Speaker 2: to say, actually, we just can't afford that this year,
53:53
Speaker 2: even if they wanted to get rid of it before.
53:55
Speaker 2: So there have been quite a few schools that have
53:58
Speaker 2: dropped the ideological program. So I think things like I
54:02
Speaker 2: think it's just a constant of kind of going in
54:04
Speaker 2: these groups, strategizing and going how is it what can
54:07
Speaker 2: we do in this situation with what we have? There's
54:09
Speaker 2: not a silver bullet, unfortunately. It's a grassroots effort. It's
54:16
Speaker 2: a grassroots activism. But the more we can collectively find
54:21
Speaker 2: other people to connect to in whatever ways that is,
54:23
Speaker 2: be it in WhatsApp groups, be it online, be it
54:25
Speaker 2: in our neighborhoods, to share information and come up with strategies,
54:31
Speaker 2: then we can create these cracks you know, And that's
54:34
Speaker 2: all we do is create the fractures in the system
54:38
Speaker 2: and be ready with what is good, because I think
54:40
Speaker 2: that is the really important thing, Like what is good
54:43
Speaker 2: for kids, I suppose the other thing, And because this
54:45
Speaker 2: is one of my bugbears, and I was talking about
54:47
Speaker 2: like there not being enough play space for kids in
54:49
Speaker 2: my neighborhood, start finding ways to provide what's good for kids. Like,
54:56
Speaker 2: you know, I always say the first time I had champagne,
55:00
Speaker 2: right proper champagne, like before I just had phusy slash
55:05
Speaker 2: And the first time I had champagne, and I was like, oh,
55:08
Speaker 2: this is why people like this use I don't like it.
55:13
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, that's actually quite nice. So I
55:15
Speaker 2: always think it's like we're giving kids so much crap.
55:19
Speaker 2: If they don't know any better, then they think that's
55:21
Speaker 2: all the more high quality good stuff we can do,
55:25
Speaker 2: which creates good memories and good relationships and good connections.
55:28
Speaker 2: It makes them feel good that the other stuff just
55:32
Speaker 2: kind of dissolves away. So I think the more we
55:35
Speaker 2: can build positive experiences and good experience and stable experiences
55:40
Speaker 2: for kids, then the other stuff won't matter so much.
55:43
Speaker 2: So I think it needs I think in a way
55:45
Speaker 2: we need to find both.
55:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're just about out of time, unfortunately. But
55:50
Speaker 1: I guess one thing I would like to leave our
55:52
Speaker 1: viewers look, because I always try to end on some
55:54
Speaker 1: sort of a positive note or something inspirational or hopeful
55:59
Speaker 1: so that people don't go way too depressed. What's one
56:02
Speaker 1: positive thing that you can tell us about, maybe something
56:05
Speaker 1: that's happened that's been good, or something that will motivate
56:09
Speaker 1: us to continue to fight this. Just give us something
56:13
Speaker 1: good to end on.
56:14
Speaker 2: I think the thing that for me as a parent
56:17
Speaker 2: two years ago, when my son was being assaulted in
56:22
Speaker 2: a school toilet and I was being silenced despite all
56:26
Speaker 2: my hard work, and I was being I was on
56:31
Speaker 2: the bad list and I felt totally alone. That what
56:37
Speaker 2: has happened is I have found a core group of
56:40
Speaker 2: people who share the values that I share for what
56:47
Speaker 2: is good for children. And I think that I didn't
56:50
Speaker 2: realize I was swimming about in a soup, a lukewarm,
56:53
Speaker 2: teped soup before, and I was just like, it was fine,
56:57
Speaker 2: it was good whatever, but it wasn't necessarily great for
57:00
Speaker 2: my kids. So sometimes you need to go through these
57:03
Speaker 2: kinds of experiences to find what's better, right, and it
57:06
Speaker 2: all makes it all makes sense in hindsight. So I
57:09
Speaker 2: think for me, as difficult as this is for parents,
57:15
Speaker 2: and I know, and I know personally and I know
57:18
Speaker 2: from speaking to lots of other parents, recognize that actually
57:23
Speaker 2: what this is doing is is in the darkness, you
57:25
Speaker 2: see the diamonds, right, and so the diamonds are all
57:29
Speaker 2: coming to the surface, and it's through you know, the
57:32
Speaker 2: gathering of the treasure as it were, which is all
57:35
Speaker 2: these other great people and great ideas that perhaps we're
57:39
Speaker 2: heading into a new enlightenment, right, like out of the
57:41
Speaker 2: dark age as came the Enlightenment. And so for me
57:44
Speaker 2: that's quite exciting. You know, it's like I'm meeting really
57:48
Speaker 2: like yourself. I'm meeting really inspiring and inspired people who
57:53
Speaker 2: I think actually with voices like this and ideas like this,
57:58
Speaker 2: and the will like this, and the heart and the soul.
58:04
Speaker 2: We've been sleeping for too long. And like any birth,
58:10
Speaker 2: I give birth to a nine and a half pound baby.
58:12
Speaker 2: It was it was quite something. But out of that
58:17
Speaker 2: darkness I have this child. So I think, you know,
58:20
Speaker 2: any process of transformation is going to be messy, difficult, hard,
58:31
Speaker 2: like hard, painful, but out of that beautiful things can
58:36
Speaker 2: come and I do think that I think on the
58:40
Speaker 2: other side, we're going to be better for it. It's
58:43
Speaker 2: just that all the crap has coming to the surface,
58:46
Speaker 2: and it's just in this awakening of us, like becoming
58:50
Speaker 2: aware of it. It's just very dystopian. It is dystopian.
58:55
Speaker 1: But as Brian Gersh has told us several times over
58:59
Speaker 1: the years, if you've been watching UK column for a
59:01
Speaker 1: long time, that once you wake up, you can't go
59:03
Speaker 1: back to sleep again. And I think that that's something
59:07
Speaker 1: that now that we are both awake, we know what
59:09
Speaker 1: needs to be done, and hopefully as we get more
59:12
Speaker 1: and more people to join us, I think that in
59:15
Speaker 1: my opinion, there are more of us than there are
59:17
Speaker 1: of the people who will truly believe in this.
59:20
Speaker 2: We trying to.
59:21
Speaker 1: Enforce it, but we have to be brave enough to
59:23
Speaker 1: speak out, and we both have sacrificed a lot to
59:27
Speaker 1: do what we're doing. But it's the only way that
59:29
Speaker 1: if we start, then we hope that other people will
59:31
Speaker 1: follow and continue to be brave and we'll all work
59:35
Speaker 1: together and beat this eventually, is what I hope and
59:39
Speaker 1: pray will happen. So thank you very much Kate.
59:42
Speaker 2: For joining me today.
59:44
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed hearing more about what you've been doing
59:47
Speaker 1: and your thoughts on everything. And thank you to aelve
59:50
Speaker 1: our viewers for sticking with us. And again this is
59:53
Speaker 1: Dinasist mccattie with Kate Deeming from the Scottish Union for Education.
59:57
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Kate, really appreciate your time.
1:00:00
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks so much. It has an absolute pleasure